doesn't matter, we are married to Watson because of the contract. I'd like to see Flacco as our backup next year. If we had him instead of Walker, we win the Seahawks game, and maybe the broncos game
I am not ready to draw a definitive conclusion on DW.
Actually I will not even devote thought to it right now. Right now it is Flacco time and I will live in the moment.
DW has never put together enough games in a row in the right circumstances. The first six games I throw away for a multitude of reasons. This year he didn't put together enough games. Flacco's four straight starts is more than anyone else this year. I will leave it there. TBC
Certain posters can no longer come to the board to complain about the FO/coach because of a loss or two, so it's time to manufacture a debate about the QB situation.
That said, I hope Watson is watching what is working between Flacco and Stefanski almost instantaneously........namely the deep game. Watson has that arm too.
This is a ridiculous thread. It's not like there's a choice to be made and we know you have an axe to grind because of your hate for Watson.
Originally Posted by ScottPlayersFacemask
I love that we are winning. A specific crowd has been quiet and I am loving it. Reading the absurd assumption based posts were unbearable.
Flacco has shown what a good passer can do with our offensive.
When a retired 38 year oldie is literally better from his first throw then question must be asked. What do you prefer. The best QB at the team or the guy with the highest salary?
That said, I hope Watson is watching what is working between Flacco and Stefanski almost instantaneously........namely the deep game. Watson has that arm too.
This is a ridiculous thread. It's not like there's a choice to be made and we know you have an axe to grind because of your hate for Watson.
Originally Posted by ScottPlayersFacemask
I love that we are winning. A specific crowd has been quiet and I am loving it. Reading the absurd assumption based posts were unbearable.
Flacco has shown what a good passer can do with our offensive.
When a retired 38 year oldie is literally better from his first throw then question must be asked. What do you prefer. The best QB at the team or the guy with the highest salary?
I'd prefer Joe Montana in his prime, which has the same relevance as what you're asking.
This is a ridiculous thread. It's not like there's a choice to be made and we know you have an axe to grind because of your hate for Watson.
Originally Posted by ScottPlayersFacemask
I love that we are winning. A specific crowd has been quiet and I am loving it. Reading the absurd assumption based posts were unbearable.
Flacco has shown what a good passer can do with our offensive.
When a retired 38 year oldie is literally better from his first throw then question must be asked. What do you prefer. The best QB at the team or the guy with the highest salary?
Agreed. I've already posted that. I'm sure we'll need JF next year to the way things have gone with DW and if DW gets hurt next season we'll be in the same boat as this year. Keep Joe!!
For me it’s not Flacco vs watson long term. No doubt Flacco has been better and more consistent than DW. But let’s not think Joe is a long term solution. Would love him as the backup. For me it’s looking at Baker this year and thinking would we have been better off with BM and all that draft capital or not. Right now I’m not sure we wouldn’t be, we gave up a ton in draft capital and cap and Baker is playing like before he got hurt
This is a ridiculous thread. It's not like there's a choice to be made and we know you have an axe to grind because of your hate for Watson.
Originally Posted by ScottPlayersFacemask
I love that we are winning. A specific crowd has been quiet and I am loving it. Reading the absurd assumption based posts were unbearable.
Flacco has shown what a good passer can do with our offensive.
When a retired 38 year oldie is literally better from his first throw then question must be asked. What do you prefer. The best QB at the team or the guy with the highest salary?
I'd prefer Joe Montana in his prime, which has the same relevance as what you're asking.
Right now you're just silly. Since Flacco's arrival the whole organizations confidence has eleveted and suddenly we almost look like a SB contender.
Especially Stefanski has benefited from having an elite passer to his disposal and suddenly his play calling looks much more mature. I'm definitely not an expert but my understanding is that with a more potent deep threat our play book has become more unpredictable and suddenly both Amari Cooper and David Njoku's potential has been more visible.
If we're going to go all the way we need not only more quality on the field but also a high dose of confidence and arrogance. Having a QB who has been there and done it seems to have a taking away a little bit of our HC previous anxiousness and replaced it with more decisiveness. For me that's crucial when we enter the play off and understanding and simple communication between our coaches and players are maybe the most important tool to have when everything is on the line. It doesn't matter how good the play calling is if the instructions isn't going all the way forward to our players on field. All this is why I think Joe Flacco at the moment is not only a better QB then Watson but also his influence on the rest of the organization is so much more valuable.
really don't know what the point of this thread is.
Has Flaco been better for the Browns than DW ? Yes. Either hard or impossible to debate that. But DW has a huge contract and is what, 12 years younger? So DW is the Browns QB when he's healthy. All we can do is hope the flashes we saw in a couple of games was a transformative moment and DW will be 'Good' going forward. If he can play at an elite level like he did in one game (Titans?) then so much the better. But that's 2024 and the future.
Today Joe F is our QB and we're going to the playoffs and we've got a fighters chance of winning the first game and from there who knows. Until this season's story line has played out I don't need to rehash the DW debate. jmo
really don't know what the point of this thread is.
Has Flaco been better for the Browns than DW ? Yes. Either hard or impossible to debate that. But DW has a huge contract and is what, 12 years younger? So DW is the Browns QB when he's healthy. All we can do is hope the flashes we saw in a couple of games was a transformative moment and DW will be 'Good' going forward. If he can play at an elite level like he did in one game (Titans?) then so much the better. But that's 2024 and the future.
Today Joe F is our QB and we're going to the playoffs and we've got a fighters chance of winning the first game and from there who knows. Until this season's story line has played out I don't need to rehash the DW debate. jmo
He will never be our long term franchise QB because of his personality and the fact that he isn't good enough. Mark my words. A serious and ambitious organization will do whatever it takes to crawl out of that contract if they mean business. I know most of you in this forum don't agree with me but I let time be my friend.
One good game in two seasons mgh888? Do you lay your hope on a guy who show up less then 5%. (I refuse to believe that)
This is a ridiculous thread. It's not like there's a choice to be made and we know you have an axe to grind because of your hate for Watson.
Originally Posted by ScottPlayersFacemask
I love that we are winning. A specific crowd has been quiet and I am loving it. Reading the absurd assumption based posts were unbearable.
Flacco has shown what a good passer can do with our offensive.
When a retired 38 year oldie is literally better from his first throw then question must be asked. What do you prefer. The best QB at the team or the guy with the highest salary?
I'd prefer Joe Montana in his prime, which has the same relevance as what you're asking.
Right now you're just silly.
What's silly is this thread. Your hatred for DW prompted you to ask who would be a better qb in the playoffs. We're there now with JF and DW is out for the season. JF is playing lights out, we're winning. Most of us are sitting back and smelling the roses, not festering over a grudge we can do nothing about. There's no question that "must be asked" at this point and time.
I like Joe Flacco and he has given this team a real chance in the playoffs. The Ravens look like the team to beat in the playoffs. DeShaun has never lost head-to-head vs Lamar Jackson college or pro including this year with the Browns in Baltimore. That would still have been nice to have if the Browns end up playing the Ravens again in Baltimore.
As far as Baker. His team is 8-7 playing in the weakest division in the NFL this year the NFC South. The AFC North has 0 teams under .500. He has shown us who he is and who he is going to be. Leading the Buccaneers in the weak NFC South is good for Baker. I'll take Flacco now and Deshaun in the AFC North.
really don't know what the point of this thread is.
Has Flaco been better for the Browns than DW ? Yes. Either hard or impossible to debate that. But DW has a huge contract and is what, 12 years younger? So DW is the Browns QB when he's healthy. All we can do is hope the flashes we saw in a couple of games was a transformative moment and DW will be 'Good' going forward. If he can play at an elite level like he did in one game (Titans?) then so much the better. But that's 2024 and the future.
Today Joe F is our QB and we're going to the playoffs and we've got a fighters chance of winning the first game and from there who knows. Until this season's story line has played out I don't need to rehash the DW debate. jmo
He will never be our long term franchise QB because of his personality and the fact that he isn't good enough. Mark my words. A serious and ambitious organization will do whatever it takes to crawl out of that contract if they mean business. I know most of you in this forum don't agree with me but I let time be my friend.
One good game in two seasons mgh888? Do you lay your hope on a guy who show up less then 5%. (I refuse to believe that)
The only crawling out from under that contract is a buyout. Haslam wrote that contract in the only way that would get Watson here. That was a mistake because Watson did not want to be here. That being said the only way to judge Watson’s performance is over a full season or as close to a full season as possible. Btw, in 5 years of playoffs with the Ravens Flacco was stellar in one year which was the year they won the Super Bowl. The other years he was very ordinary. His completion percentage also dropped. We will have to see how things go in the playoffs.
I like Joe Flacco and he has given this team a real chance in the playoffs. The Ravens look like the team to beat in the playoffs. DeShaun has never lost head-to-head vs Lamar Jackson college or pro including this year with the Browns in Baltimore. That would still have been nice to have if the Browns end up playing the Ravens again in Baltimore.
As far as Baker. His team is 8-7 playing in the weakest division in the NFL this year the NFC South. The AFC North has 0 teams under .500. He has shown us who he is and who he is going to be. Leading the Buccaneers in the weak NFC South is good for Baker. I'll take Flacco now and Deshaun in the AFC North.
"That was a mistake because Watson did not want to be here."
I am not sure how you can make that statement? Nobody held a gun to his head to play for the Browns.
He had other viable offers with loads of money.
It was Deshaun Watsons decision to play for Cleveland.
The rest I agree with. You have to have an adequate viable sample. Start six games in a row now after you have been on the team and are prepared.
He started to get comfortable and then was injured. Next year is another chance for DW to show what he can do.
This year IMO it is about Joe and his current health. That and KS working the offense into what is best for Joe with this team.
Cooper is a precise route runner. Joe is an experienced quarterback who is good at play action. Play action is married to the route steps and the qb drop. It is about timing and throwing guys open in tight windows. That fits both Joe and Cooper.
We are now a passing offense. We can overcome poor OT play by getting the ball out on time to precise routes.
We are going to ride that train. One because the defense can hold teams to under 20 points. And two, because we can score more than 21 points with Flacco.
In the playoffs though we cannot turn it over with a short field to score. Can't do that against the better teams.
regardless of Flacco Vs Watson, maybe its just a matter of KS preferring (and maybe he didn't know he needed it at the time until he got it) a traditional pocket QB, tall, big arm. We might be seeing a pivot in our philosophy right before our eyes. One thing is for sure, the offense with flacco looks better than anything in the last 2 years and the playcaller hasn't changed
Flacco is the QB for the rest of this season... including playoffs... even if Watson gets healthy, I'm not sure you can make that change this late in the season with Joe playing so well...
next year, if Watson is healthy it's his team..... if Joe was 28, then I think I'd rather roll with Joe because he seems to fit better, but at his age he can't have much football left...
I for one don't think your question is out of bounds. Now if you were talking about moving forward between the two I think that would be out of line. Flacco is 38 years old and there's no telling what the physical demands of training camp, then preseason and starting for an entire season would do to his body. I'm not sure that moving forward after this season with Flacco as the starter is even worthy of discussion.
And even looking at the here and now I'm not sure there is a clear cut answer. First let's look at Flacco. Flacco is playing well. And there's certainly the familiarity factor in regards to what Stefanski had so much previous success with which first got him the Browns job in the first place. That was working with Kirk Cousins as his QB. It's certainly true that Flacco fits that mold much more than Watson does. So I do think having Flacco at QB fits into Stefanski's strong suit.
Now let's look at Watson. He's a young and very talented QB but his skill set is very different that what Stefanski was used to before coming here. He's a QB you can build around for the long term. There is no doubt that a team can achieve long term success with him as their QB. It was a marriage orchestrated by this FO. And to some extent it started out as a pretty messy marriage. But as we saw just before his injury this season that all began to settle down and settle in. Watson was playing much better and it seemed as though the coaching was starting to work well with watson's style of play. It was starting to look like a promising future was beginning to take shape.
That's why I don't see there being any clear cut answer to your question based on the here and now part of things. None of us can say with any certainty how well this O would be playing with Watson as the QB had he remained healthy this season. He was most certainly improving as well as Stefanski improving in his use of Watson. So it very well may be if that scenario had continued to play out we would be seeing a very dynamic O with Watson at the helm.
So to break it down moving into the future there is no doubt Watson is the QB the Browns should and will roll with.
As for the here and now we all witnessed Watson improving before he was injured and we have no way of knowing just how good this O would be now if Watson would have remained healthy. All indications are it would have looked pretty good at the very least.
My biggest takeaway from all of this on a personal level is that I hope this FO has learned just how critical it is to have a quality backup QB on the roster. Just how many benefits that pays. While it's wonderful that they managed to pull a rabbit out of their hats by resurrecting Flacco form his couch, that's more of an anomaly than strategy.
Both Stefanski and Berry have done an amazing job this year. When you have second and even third string players responding this way and winning games, it's all the proof one can ask for that they buy into the coaches. They buy into the system and they respond. That's the true sign of a leader.
I'd keep Flacco. It's always been about Character to me anyway. DW hasn't shown he has any.. Never has.
I know that it appears we don't have a choice, but we do. Pay DW and he becomes your second stringer. Expensive but who cares,, it's not our money. Besides, we've supported this team for a lot of years,, they can afford to bite the bullet...
I think there's merit to the argument that Flacco is a better fit for Stefanski than Watson. What does Stefanski excel at? It's not play calling. It's play design. Watson cannot execute the plays like Flacco can. He's not that type of QB. He's a backyard football QB. It's why Stefanski has to dial up so many plays where he turns Watson into a RB.
Having said that, if we are being completely honest, we are not winning because of Flacco. We are winning because of the defense. If Flacco had to carry the team, it wouldn't look the same, especially with all of the interceptions. This is a bit of a lightning in a bottle situation. A fun, glorious one that I think is going to have a storybook ending to it, but I'd be surprised if it would be sustainable into next year.
I also don't think Watson would fair well with Flacco as the backup, him playing poorly, and the fan base screaming for Flacco. I don't think Watson would be mentally strong enough to overcome that.
Next year it is Watsom, DTR, and a QB to be named later. Watson will get hurt again and DTR will take over as the starter.
As for Baker, it will be real interesting to see what TB does there. I think the minute you sign Baker long term you're in trouble.
The question is moot and will take care of itself. Flacco is NFL and like I’ve always said…The Browns not having a viable backup QB is absolutely insane. They can back each other up when one or the other can’t go.
The Browns org believes they are now in a Super Bowl window...as a fan it's impossible to not think that as well. When you are 'THAT' team, your decision at backup QBs HAS to be different and much more aggressive/expensive.
My hope is that they have a guy like Flacco (hopefully Flacco himself) on the roster next year along with DW and DTR. The question: Would you rather have player X or a backup QB that may not play? Is easy to answer for THIS team in THIS window. It's a no brainer. Next man up at LT/RT/DE/SS/FS etc has been answered...and now also at QB...but not until we washed through two other guys on the way to Flacco.
My other hope is that we DON'T fall BACK into the trap of thinking we must have a viable backup that plays DWs 'style'. That guy doesn't exist...if he did exist, he'd be a starter somewhere. I'm on board if one wants to have a developmental guy with similar traits as the starter and try to mold that guy a little to the offense we want to run with our personnel...but I'm not on board with rolling the dice (again) at backup QB. Flacco has shown that he is a perfect backup for a coach like Ski...he's done being a starter...if he wants to play in '24 it needs to be with the Browns.
Lastly, we may have seen DW figure it out the last couple of games he played...but there are two glaring realities:
#1 - He is coming off surgery to his throwing shoulder. That may never heal up properly...that may take a few more months than timing allows...we can't take chances with that in THIS window;
#2 - DW has not yet proven that the rust is completely gone and he's back to his earlier Pro Bowl form. We can hope/wish/convince that he is now or is on the way...but the reality is that he has NOT proven much of anything yet. Whether we think he will/can is irrelevant and DTR isn't - and won't - be ready to take the reins of a team in its window.
If DW can't handle the 'pressure' of a then-39 year old backup...then he isn't the guy anyway.
Yes, it was his choice to make, but don't be obtuse. It isn't hard to see that he didn't want to be here when he rejected us outright. The ONLY reason he is here is because his agent would have killed him if he rejected a 100% guaranteed 1/4 Billion dollar offer.
Texans QB Deshaun Watson passes on Browns, declines to waive no-trade clause for Cleveland
The Browns passed on Deshaun Watson five years ago in the NFL Draft.
On Thursday morning, Watson passed on Cleveland.
The Browns have been informed they are out of the running for Watson, a person familiar with the situation confirmed. Watson has a no-trade clause in his contract, and he decided he wouldn't waive it for Cleveland.
The Browns were willing to accept whatever public backlash would have come from making Watson the face of their franchise because owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam believe the controversial quarterback is capable of leading Cleveland to its first Super Bowl.
The Haslams authorized a massive trade offer for Watson, essentially signaling they can no longer envision hoisting a Lombardi Trophy with quarterback Baker Mayfield beside them.
On Thursday afternoon, Mayfield asked to be traded, but the Browns told his agent they are not accommodating the request, two league sources confirmed.
Deshaun Watson is considering three NFC South teams
Mayfield wants out of Cleveland on the heels of Watson rejecting the Browns.
Watson's other suitors are reportedly the New Orleans Saints, Atlanta Falcons and Carolina Panthers. By Thursday night, though, the Panthers had been told Watson eliminated them from consideration, according to NFL Network, leaving the Saints and Falcons.
The Browns risked their partnership with Mayfield by taking a massive swing at Watson, and the organization whiffed with the entire NFL watching the sweepstakes unfold.
Watson is a three-time Pro Bowl selection who has been accused of sexual misconduct or sexual assault by two dozen women during massage appointments. On Friday, a grand jury decided Watson wouldn't be criminally charged, but he still faces 22 civil lawsuits and a likely NFL suspension.
None of it stopped the Browns from trying to trade for Watson, 26. He's an elite player, and his talent had to have superseded all of his baggage in the eyes of the Haslams.
Watson met with the Saints and Panthers on Monday, the Browns on Tuesday and the Falcons on Wednesday. Those are the only four teams known to have met with him. The clubs' owners, general managers and head coaches attended the meetings with Watson, according to ProFootballTalk.com. What the Cleveland Browns had to offer Deshaun Watson
The Browns finished last season with a disappointing record of 8-9, but Watson undoubtedly took note of their strong roster. They boast a stellar offensive line, an elite running back stable and a promising defense. Plus, they acquired four-time Pro Bowl wide receiver Amari Cooper on Saturday in a trade with the Dallas Cowboys.
Still, the Browns struck out. After placing third in the AFC North in 2021, they were fourth in the competition for Watson.
The Browns had been conducting due diligence on Watson for a while. The Seattle Seahawks, Philadelphia Eagles and Washington Commanders also did their homework on Watson, but those teams ultimately bowed out of the pursuit for a trade, USA Today reported.
There's more to the article but it's basically about Baker and the Browns. But this is 100% proof that the only reason watson signed here was because Halsam pulled up the money truck. Not some strong desire by watson to be here as you propose.
For claiming you don't "make unverifiable assumptions", that's exactly what you're doing by saying he came here because he wants to be here. He came here because Haslam showed him the money. That would make me want to be here too. The most money. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I wanted to be paid as well as I could be paid for my work as well. But it is what it is. He came here for the money.
He agreed AFTER he turned the Browns down. He agreed to a contract AFTER they offered him the most money. Unless you know him personally every shred of evidence dictates he came here for the money. And there is NO evidence to the contrary.
Who’s the better fit for the Browns offense and who if both are healthy deserves to start in a potential play off game?
Bonus question. Have they both been better 2023 then a certain Baker Mayfield? (who btw earn less then 5M this season excluding bonuses)
Not to poke a bee's nest as I try to leave all the Baker stuff alone these days, but if we had Baker's numbers at QB this year, we'd still be in the division race. That said, as Flacco is now warmed up, I have to think that he will be passing up what Baker is doing.... but, he has got to cut down on the turnovers!!
Of course he wants to play for Cleveland, now. He has 230 million reasons for that.
But, if you want to believe that him refusing to even waive the no-trade clause for us means he secretly liked us, I'd say you are outright lying to yourself. He did NOT want to be here. There is literally written record stating that he wanted to play in a warm weather city because he hates the cold. We were COMPLETELY off the table until ONE THING happened. Haslam backed up the Brinks truck. Period. Did he then WANT to play for us? Maybe, maybe not. Did he find it agreeable to play wherever he needed to in order to put a quarter billion dollars into his bank account? Absolutely, 100%.
It is a factual account of the events. If you wish to put your head in the sand and pretend it is something it isn't, you go for it, but dude, don't insist others believe your delusion.
Dude, he REFUSED a contract with the Browns. He plainly told them they were out of the running UNTIL they coughed up more money. I posted an article that explained exactly that. What part of that are you missing? He came here for the money. That's as obvious as the nose on your face.
Probably very true, although I feel like they still would have cut ties with Baker as soon as they could. I just feel like Stefanski - for whatever reason - just did not like Baker, at all.
Probably very true, although I feel like they still would have cut ties with Baker as soon as they could. I just feel like Stefanski - for whatever reason - just did not like Baker, at all.
After the season, the Browns began to explore other quarterback options, though maintained publicly that Mayfield was likely to be the starter in his fifth and final year under contract with Cleveland. After a report emerged the Browns wanted an "adult" at quarterback, it became more clear the team was likely not going to see him play another snap.
When the Browns traded for Deshaun Watson, who at the time faced more than 20 accusations of sexual assault and misconduct, Mayfield officially requested a trade, and later said he felt disrespected by the team.
Since this is a Flacco/Watson thread, I was thinking the other day that Watson lead two fourth quarter drives against the Ravens, including the game-winner, both in the 4th quarter. This while playing with a shoulder injury bad enough to require shoulder surgery.
This isn't meant to say Watson is better than Flacco or worse. Just food for thought when posters imply that he was only playing for money.
I think the Flacco story is great and think if it rolls along deep into the playoffs, it is like a Hollywood script.
Can we not just be happy with who we are and glad that the Jets didn't sign Flacco so he could pitch relief for us this year?
Probably very true, although I feel like they still would have cut ties with Baker as soon as they could. I just feel like Stefanski - for whatever reason - just did not like Baker, at all.
This isn't meant to say Watson is better than Flacco or worse. Just food for thought when posters imply that he was only playing for money.
I don't actually believe that has anything to do with the discussion at hand. The debate from my understanding is whether he came here and because he wants to be here or if the decision was based on the money. Since he turned the Browns down until they backed up the Brinks truck I think the answer to that is abundantly clear.
He was certainly playing well before his injury and it looks as if he can play well on his return. A players desire to play well can be based on different reasons or a combination of reasons. Watson is 28 and only has three years left on his contract. It would most certainly serve his self interest to play well and hopefully set himself up for another high paying long term contract. He's plenty young enough for that. So it may very well be that money is the overriding factor in his drive and determination to play well.
These guys are playing for their financial well being and to attain generational wealth. I for one don't blame them. I will not however pretend there are things higher on their priority list than that.
This isn't meant to say Watson is better than Flacco or worse. Just food for thought when posters imply that he was only playing for money.
I don't actually believe that has anything to do with the discussion at hand. The debate from my understanding is whether he came here and because he wants to be here or if the decision was based on the money. Since he turned the Browns down until they backed up the Brinks truck I think the answer to that is abundantly clear.
He was certainly playing well before his injury and it looks as if he can play well on his return. A players desire to play well can be based on different reasons or a combination of reasons. Watson is 28 and only has three years left on his contract. It would most certainly serve his self interest to play well and hopefully set himself up for another high paying long term contract. He's plenty young enough for that. So it may very well be that money is the overriding factor in his drive and determination to play well.
These guys are playing for their financial well being and to attain generational wealth. I for one don't blame them. I will not however pretend there are things higher on their priority list than that.
My money comment wasn't related to the existing money/contract conversation. It related more to the comments after the first Ravens game when it was a gametime situation and DTR was forced to start. Also another game, maybe Indy, where a few posters said he wasn't playing because he had big, guaranteed money and didn't really care fi he played.
I think the issue is the wording you both (PrP) are using that is causing the back n forth with Bone. Because I do not agree with how you both are stating about DW.
What part of it do you disagree with? My comments aren't specific to watson but more about the general reason players play the game. They play to get paid. They try and play their best to continue to be paid. I actually think they would be fools not to. You're a part of a very select group of athletes with a special and rare skill set. What kind of fool would it take to try not maximize that? While you certainly hear of the "home town discount" from time to time that often has to do with players taking into account having to uproot their families to a new location which interrupts their children's lives. Changing schools and making new friends.
So what is it about saying players sign for the money more than anything else that you disagree with?
If the owners and our FO means business and want to win at all cost then it’s time to be open minded and look for alternatives because Deshaun Watson has so far not even been worth half of the money the Browns pay Flacco, not even what Baker gets.
Flacco gives calmness and stability to the organization on and off the field contrary to our 230M signing who so far mostly creates question marks and controversies.
Yes, it was his choice to make, but don't be obtuse. It isn't hard to see that he didn't want to be here when he rejected us outright. The ONLY reason he is here is because his agent would have killed him if he rejected a 100% guaranteed 1/4 Billion dollar offer
I will start with Prp's quote, as Bone responded to it and kind of put the wheels in motion.
I am not disagreeing with either of you about why he made his choice and the events and article you posted I shows that.
Why I said I don't agree is b/c of the wording. As Bone said, we don't know if it is 100% factual, he did not want to be here. This is the two options to that wording:
1. He rejected our offer - he did not want to be here 2. He rejected our offer - we were not his top choice, he may have liked the organization, however warm weather, being closer to home or the south trumped. That is why he had NO, CAR, and ATL.
I am viewing this from my own experience. When I had to change duty stations, I received a list and had to rank the sites. My top 5 places were 1. FL 2. TX, 3. FL 4. TX 5. HI. I wanted warm weather and ocean/beaches. FL and TX were my top 4 b/c I can hop in my car and drive back to Ohio any time to visit family. Hawaii would've been my #1, but family rules. Long story short, Army told me I am going to HI. I love it here, I would have loved the other places. It just wasn't my top choice due to distance of parents.
Why I brought this up, the one thing missing from that article is he spent "supposedly" a few hours with Stef going through how they would utilize him. He told Stef to push him and don't hold back. Supposedly the meeting went well. However, when he made his top 3 list, warm weather, and his personal needs were why he chose them. Naturally once Cleveland made the contract offer that changed everything.
My point was just the wording: The way I am reading it come off as he didn't want any part of us, and the "only reason he is here" is b/c of money. It's just coming off to me as he's hating it here, but that money is good.
Why I am bringing the wording up: Not saying either of you are stating this, but through media and other means people are using that as another negative about him. When it is possible he is happy here and he's working just as hard as he would for the other teams he chose for his top 3.
I hope my point is clear, I am kind of multitasking right now.
Of course I am thrilled with the play of Iceman Joe.
But I think it's worth mentioning what we saw in DW's last appearance.
He struggled in the first half. Then he went over the moon good and beat the Ravens in their house. He did it in spectacular fashion and he was badly hurt.
It was a signature win for him and the win that put us here. I get people don't like him. There are probably many that want him to fail. Or, just want him gone.
I will leave that form of judgement alone.
But when he plays I will judge him fairly. And I want him to succeed.
Dude, he REFUSED a contract with the Browns. He plainly told them they were out of the running UNTIL they coughed up more money. I posted an article that explained exactly that. What part of that are you missing? He came here for the money. That's as obvious as the nose on your face.
You are assuming he has a nose on his face.
No insult Bone, just having some fun.
To the point, at minimum it is fair to say it took a bigger carrot to change Watsons mind.
But it is the implication he didn't want to play here. Flacco came here because we offered him the job. Maybe he wanted to play in San Diego.
I can understand your perspective. I also think it's not unreasonable to state that DW didn't want to come to CLE - I believe there were 5 teams interested in a trade. DW held the right to choose where he went and intially of the 5 teams he rejected CLE and told his agent to tell HOU he wouldn't accept CLE as a trade parter/option. It doesn't make him a bad person or a worse QB.
Maybe his agent was brilliant and thought that by doing that, it would make CLE drop their pants and offer the world .... that's what happened. Maybe of 32 NFL teams - CLE would be choice number 5 and it was just coincidnce that the 4 other teams were all slightly higher on his list. . . those things we don't know. What we do know - initially he "didn't want to come to CLE" and after receiving the contract offer we made, he chose to come here. I have no problem saying he didn't want to come to CLE - I think it's an accurate statement. I also think DW is professional enough and a big enough team mate that no matter his feelings before the trade/contract - he will play hard and try to win here. As you and others said - lots of players sign and play for a team based 100% on money. There are very, very few individuals who decide to take less money and play for a contender or preferred team.
I'll be honest... I find most of this thread to be ridiculous.
1. We gotta jump straight to the QB controversy while the magic of this season is going on 2. A cursory glance at the contracts given to both QBs should tell you all you need to know 3. In case anyone had doubt that this thread is complete satire, we dragged Mayfield into the convo
That said, Rish had a thought-provoking post on the first page. I want to sorta jump off that and say, if there is a comparison to be made in the same vein of this thread I think it's how Flacco was able to come in and look pretty competent and steadily improve while it took Watson forever to not look awful.
I know we have an "oil and water" effect going on with Watson and KS, but what's behind this and how do we move past that? Can Watson learn to operate better from under center? Is this a footwork issue? Flacco's biggest weapon in executing within our offense is being able to quickly diagnose defenders and put the ball where it needs to be. Watson should be able to do this.
Flacco's age means that this won't happen. He isn't a long term answer.
Watson, love him or hate him, isn't going anywhere. You don't cut someone when you still have to pay them another $150 million no matter what (not even getting into what cutting him would do to our CAP situation), and he has a No Trade clause in his contract, so he isn't going anywhere he doesn't approve of... AND we'd have to find someone willing to absorb the remainder of his deal.
All I know is that Andrew Berry looked pretty happy when it showed him up in the press box the last couple of games.
You cannot mess with the chemistry at this point. Flacco has it. You continue with him instead of going with the unknown which is Watson. That's just the way it is. If Watson doesn't like that, he is free to leave.
If the Browns are serious about winning then they will trade Watson, eat the contract, or release him outright. Who's to say if Watson comes back in, if he EVER develops the kind of chemistry we're seeing right now between the WR's and Flacco? My money is that he doesn't. I'm not willing to watch the experiment of trying to force something to make it work, let's roll with Flacco, he is the man for the foreseeable future.
Its time to have the tough conversation and stop shying away from it. Watson just hasn't worked out. Let's leave it at that. I DO NOT care if Flacco is older. If we can get multiple good seasons and potentially a super bowl, I don't care if the QB is 60 years old. For once I'd like to see the Browns do the right thing. They sure didn't with Gregg Williams.
Just before watson's injury he played well. Nothing appeared "forced". Things appeared to be coming together. Flacco, while I love watching him play and he is doing well, he will be 39 years old next year. That is not a foundation with which to build the future of your team around.
There's watson the person then there's watson the player. I try not to allow the way I feel about him as a person to cloud my judgement in regards to watson the player.
Flacco's age means that this won't happen. He isn't a long term answer.
Watson, love him or hate him, isn't going anywhere. You don't cut someone when you still have to pay them another $150 million no matter what (not even getting into what cutting him would do to our CAP situation), and he has a No Trade clause in his contract, so he isn't going anywhere he doesn't approve of... AND we'd have to find someone willing to absorb the remainder of his deal.
You may have hit on something, this could be a simple but expensive. Perhaps the Browns need to stop with the inexperienced guys like DTR and spend on a guy like Flacco and yes, Watson starts. If something happens we have Joe to take over.
Flacco's age means that this won't happen. He isn't a long term answer.
Watson, love him or hate him, isn't going anywhere. You don't cut someone when you still have to pay them another $150 million no matter what (not even getting into what cutting him would do to our CAP situation), and he has a No Trade clause in his contract, so he isn't going anywhere he doesn't approve of... AND we'd have to find someone willing to absorb the remainder of his deal.
You may have hit on something, this could be a simple but expensive. Perhaps the Browns need to stop with the inexperienced guys like DTR and spend on a guy like Flacco and yes, Watson starts. If something happens we have Joe to take over.
I have no problem going into 2024 season 1) Watson 2) Flacco 3) DTR. Sign me up. Flacco is a heck of an insurance policy. I really was hoping Brissett would have come back to be Watson's back up last year. The Browns went 4-7 in his starts, but they easily could have been 7-4. With this defense they probably would have been 7-4 in his starts.
I don't like starting this whole thing back up again, but I believe Brissett will be available, and I highly doubt Flacco will be. I just find it hard to believe teams watching what Flacco is doing right now and not a single team throws starter-level money at him.
That said, what I believe is your larger point is totally valid. A contending team needs a capable backup. We lucked out bigly with Flacco.
I understand what you’re saying but if Joe had to go through training camp and a full schedule he might not be as good as he’s been for us mainly because he’d be more beat up and his age. Just an observation.
I understand what you’re saying but if Joe had to go through training camp and a full schedule he might not be as good as he’s been for us mainly because he’d be more beat up and his age. Just an observation.
Actually a few of us have already thought about it and posted about it. Yet at the same time the NFL is desperate at the QB position. With the way Flacco is playing it wouldn't surprise me in the least if an NFL team took a chance on rolling with him as their starter next year. To me it's more about who has a team with a HC that is willing and able to work in, and with a pocket style QB.
About the training camp comment by Fort and Pit, yep also the secondary part of it - b/c of just playing the past few games only, teams have very limited film on Flacco with the Browns. Of course, they have 5 games now. However, it wasn't a season's worth of tendencies or etc.
Agreed Pit, I've seen it brought up the past few weeks about re-signing Flacco.
The basic answer is we basically already went through this scenario last year with Brissett. Sure, it would be nice to re-sign him to back up DW. However, chances are this is our only season we see him in a Browns uni.
I agree with you for more than one reason. The first reason is I believe he will get a legitimate shot to win the starting job elsewhere which would get him a bigger payday and give him another shot to play as the starter. Secondly after leading us to the playoffs this season I don't think this FO wants to create a QB controversy going into next season if watson doesn't come out guns a blazing. That would be a mess that they probably feel the team doesn't need. I just hope they have a competent backup in place next season. If they had done so this season the odds are pretty good they could have won the division. Not that I'm complaining about making the playoffs but when you see an obvious mistake that leaves room for improvement I believe it should be expected that you learn from it moving forward.
The "secondly" reason, in my opinion is a big reason too. Heck, just look on here there are a few that brought up about keeping Flacco next year and getting rid of DW, lol.
I understand it though, we all are riding high on this awesome season.
I get it too. Flacco has helped bring a feeling to people and the team that this team is capable of anything. That's a feeling that I believe people haven't had in a very long time. For me it's perfectly understandable that people wouldn't want to risk losing that belief and that feeling.
Average TD/INT per game in Houston (2018-2020) - 1,8/0,6 (85/28) Average TD/INT per game in Cleveland (2022-2023) - 1,17/0,75 (14/9)
Average PTC/season in Houston - 68,6% Average PTC/season in Cleveland - 59,8%
Average RATE in Houston - 104,5 Average RATE in Cleveland - 81,7
Deshaun Watson isn't any longer the same player that we saw in Houston! That's a fact and the stats prove it.
We talk about a 20% drop in performance and especially his TD/INT per game has fallen of a cliff with a almost 50% reduction. That's huge numbers for a guy who's only 28 years old. With a shoulder injury to come back from we have absolutely no idea what kind of player we will see in September 2024.
I don't think we will ever going to see the Deshaun Watson that we saw between 2018-2020. It's very rare that a elite athlete on the highest level fully recover after three years of steady decline.
There is a difference between thinking and knowing.
"With a shoulder injury to come back from we have absolutely no idea what kind of player we will see in September 2024.
I don't think we will ever going to see the Deshaun Watson that we saw between 2018-2020. It's very rare that a elite athlete on the highest level fully recover after three years of steady decline."
Three years of steady decline is not an accurate statement. Three years of football is 51 games. DW has played in 12 games.
The 12 games were not even consecutive. So your conclusion is misleading.
The last six games the Browns were 5-1 with DW starting. The last time he was on the field. He took over the game and beat the Ravens in their house while playing through the injury. The prognosis for the injury is a complete recovery.
How he will play is yet to be determined. What you think will have no impact on how he actually plays.
I would love to see DW improve to his highest level, unfortunately, every time he showed signs, the injury bug reared it's head.
I have no idea what to expect from him next year, and really neither does anyone else. Time will tell.
I would also love to have Joe back, but as someone else posted, with teh value placed on QBs, I expect he can demand more than the Browns can/will pay.
Maybe we can get him some NIL money? Is there a "Sloppy Joe's" fast food place in Cleveland to fit the bill?
I get it too. Flacco has helped bring a feeling to people and the team that this team is capable of anything. That's a feeling that I believe people haven't had in a very long time. For me it's perfectly understandable that people wouldn't want to risk losing that belief and that feeling.
I think that there is something to this. It is beginning to feel a little like the Bernie days. Cleveland is first and foremost a Browns Town and always has been and we have not been able to get up for very much in the last 25-30 years. The one year we had a shot-we go into pittsburgh and take away a playoff game in front of what 12,000 people and pretty much everybody else is in their living room watching the game because of covid.
Joe really seems to be liking this one more chance-and he keeps bringing up what everybody that he has come in contact with in Cleveland have been super awesome-and he really thinks it is cool being able to do this in front of his kids-I don't know if he would want starter money to come back next year-I don't know how many other teams are looking to ignite a starter that is playing like crap with a mega deal-I know that there is already talk of where Baker and Russell Wilson are going next year but....
If Flacco goes out and gets us a couple wins in the playoffs, the lid is going to come off this place.
I get the topic but man I just want to be in the moment. Next year will take care of itself.
Speaking for myself. I have been waiting for what seems like eternity just to be where we are today. We are in the playoffs. I don't see a dominant favorite to win it all.
The Ravens are playing well now. They still have two games to play. Things can happen. We beat them with DW in their house.
Why not us? We could run the table. It is not beyond reason. I'll tell you what. This team believes they can do it.
I agree. Screw nest year. My only focus is what we do over at least the next 2 game. After that if we get that, 1 game at a time.
It's like when the Cavs won the championship. We went down 3 games and everybody was all uptight about having to win 3 games. Teams can't win 3 games at a time, but they can win 1 game at a time. I kept saying just win this next game. Don't worry about having to win the two after that.
I get the topic but man I just want to be in the moment. Next year will take care of itself.
Speaking for myself. I have been waiting for what seems like eternity just to be where we are today. We are in the playoffs. I don't see a dominant favorite to win it all.
The Ravens are playing well now. They still have two games to play. Things can happen. We beat them with DW in their house.
Why not us? We could run the table. It is not beyond reason. I'll tell you what. This team believes they can do it.
Right now I don't give a damn about next year.
That makes this team special to me. The fact that they think they can go toe to toe with anyone and win, while actually pulling some of the biggest upsets of the year. We were literally giving QBs career bad stats early on. And did it several times this year. I don’t think a single QB in the playoffs wants to face the Browns. This team has exceeded all expectations to this point. So, they might as well go win it all now. What a profound statement that would be, dominating the playoffs.
This and one other post telling us how Flacco's going to regress are your only posts in the last 3 weeks. You're really butt hurt over the Browns doing well, aren't you?
There is a difference between thinking and knowing.
"With a shoulder injury to come back from we have absolutely no idea what kind of player we will see in September 2024.
I don't think we will ever going to see the Deshaun Watson that we saw between 2018-2020. It's very rare that a elite athlete on the highest level fully recover after three years of steady decline."
Three years of steady decline is not an accurate statement. Three years of football is 51 games. DW has played in 12 games.
The 12 games were not even consecutive. So your conclusion is misleading.
The last six games the Browns were 5-1 with DW starting. The last time he was on the field. He took over the game and beat the Ravens in their house while playing through the injury. The prognosis for the injury is a complete recovery.
How he will play is yet to be determined. What you think will have no impact on how he actually plays.
The stats gives you an indication of his future potential abilities. (That's the main answer to your post.) One really good game in three seasons when you earn 40M+/year it's actually a testament of failure, no matter the circumstances.
You use his 12 not even consecutive games as an excuse of his performances when the reality is the total opposite.
Not playing in 2021 and 2022 is totally his own fault. Multiple female witnesses has charactirize him as a man with a hidden agenda. A respectable judge have labeled him in a written statement as a lier. His controversy with the Houston Texans can't be ignored and it grossly questioning his decision making. Overall it's not totally wrong to suspect he's a "rotten apple".
Multiple respectable journalists, TV hosts and others has big question marks around his character. Do you really think that everybody is wrong in that assessment based on all the evidence? The evidence is there for all to see.
I suspect that you will dismiss all this because it doesn't suit your (and many others) agenda but many of us think that being a respectable leader and the face of the franchise involves more than just throwing a ball on the field.
Compare how the national media and rivaling supporters sees Joe Flacco. He's on everybody's lips and it's only nice words. A stark difference to how most narratives was around Watson. Why is that?
Whatever you feel about DW personally is in your court. I am not talking about that.
I am talking about the field of play.
He played the last six games of 2022.
Then he participated in a full off season and started the 2023 season. He played three games was injured and then came back and played three more games.
His record was 5-1.
The last game he played he was injured during the game. He was 11 for 13 in the second half and won the game in Baltimore.
Those are the facts of what he has done on the field for the Browns.
However people feel about him off the field. Is up to them.
Not wanting to extend this debate because like you I want to love living in the moment. DW and his contract don't concern me one bit at the moment ... that said I do hate seeing people posting DW was 5-1 this year. It's an accurate statement but belies the fact that in three of those game the total points scorwd by the other team- combined - was 6 points. In 2 of the other games I thought Dw played very well.... one of those 2 games he was exceptional.
2023 playoff bound and Joe F is our QB and I think we'll have a chance to win any/every game.
This and one other post telling us how Flacco's going to regress are your only posts in the last 3 weeks. You're really butt hurt over the Browns doing well, aren't you?
Why the meanness? I'm excited over Flacco's performance as most are but there's no one here that can honestly say they expected what Flacco has done. As far as this post, I'm not the creator but just the messenger. Are you disputing the facts in the post? The despairing point is Watson keeps getting credit for the Colts win when he left the game with 3:03 left in the 1st Qtr and the Browns losing 14-7. Clearly that win should have gone to PJ but not credited due to not starting. That aside, reality says Watson was 4-1 not 5-1 but if it makes you feel better for him to get unearned credit so be it.
I'm not butt hurt in the least. In fact, besides the fact that I'm as excited as everyone else with this turn around, I find it refreshing that the organization itself is proving that you do not have to have an elite top 5 QB to be a Super Bowl competitor. Every game the Browns win with Flacco proves that even more and the questions everyone has had about Watson's ability to perform consistently at an elite top 5 level in 2022 and 2023 remains a huge question mark going into 2024. The ROI for the first 92M has been dismal at best and the Browns threat for the AFC Championship hinges on the play of a non-elite QB with a strong supporting cast on offense and defense. Imagine that!
No matter what opinions anyone on this board has or what agenda they have as Browns fans we should all be thrilled about the play and coaching of this team. We’ve had a few very good seasons before but this year with all of the injuries and adjustments that had to be made it’s been special. I don’t know how far we can go but whatever happens this season has been special. I hope we can continue on this journey. Maybe the greatest Brown ever, MR. Jim Brown, has something to do with this!!!!!
It has nothing to do with your bogus argument about elite qb play. When the playoff bracket is finalized. The quarterbacks playing are all playing at a high level.
To try and dispute the importance of the most valuable position on the field is absurd.
In addition I doubt that you have ever penned a post that did not come from some kind of negative point of view.
All your garbage about Stefanski has been proven false.
Yet you continue to dig for something to complain about.
Flacco is the man for the remainder of this season, and hopefully that will extend into February for the Browns.
Come March, however, he is almost certainly going to be a free agent. There are a couple of very simple and immutable facts that assure this:
1. Watson's Contract guarantees that he is our starting QB in 2024
2. Flacco is playing far too well to not get offered a starting QB gig somewhere else in 2024
There is a team out there that will be sitting on their couches in ten days that feels they are a dynamic QB away; that if they had a QB that could get the ball to their receivers, they'd have been in the postseason. Flacco WILL get an offer.
My fear is that one of those teams looking at him is Pittsburgh.
Get the heck out of here, these are the CLEVELAND FREAKING BROWNs, 2023 VERsION,
AND THEY ARE REALLY GOOD,
AND I WANT TO sEE MORE OF THEM.
Flo@uihino, it feels out of character to read naysaying from him as one to be the original poster of this thead, I expected it from a bunch of other sources.
And to address that My signature hates on DW? well, I figure, I watched from 20I3 to 20I8 with so many bad decisions at @B, , and from many years before, too but, I figure if they expected me to wait, <the team< expected me to wait through I and fifteen, and then 0 and sixteen, and then after all of that to give up on Mayfield after a couple years, , that 2 years ain't too long for me to dwell on the @uarterback who brought the team out of , of One thirty one and one, OH MY GOSH, I can't believe that ACTUALLY was their record, what the heck were they doing.
I DON'T CARE, If Watson or Flacco was better than the other one, THEY BOTH did a few things right, and the Browns are playing well enough, that I want to see more of what they'll do this year, I know it's new years eve,
This is the year they beat Pitt and Baltimore in BACK TO BACK GAMEs, one on the road,
They almost swept Pittsburgh, < they had a nineteen to ten,or fifteen?, lead in the 2nd half, On the Road on MNF, where no team had won in thirty years at pitt on MNF, and over two dozen outcomes They almost freaking swept Pittsburgh,
the ONLY reason they didn't sweep Baltimore is b/c they started a rookie fifth round @uarterback in his first ever game against the raven defense, the Browns are Eleven and Five, they ought to be Thirteen and Three, or fifteen and one actually, except for seattle, maybe denver,
If somebody wants to hate on the 2023 Browns, wait until after the season ends,
I want to see how far this one goes,
everyone else go away, anyone want to be a front runner go root for KC,
I think the eye test alone shows us that Watson doesn't marry with KS as a coach ... and the Flacco month has confirmed that too
If only, the team weren't in the AFC North where, IMO, they need all seven @uarterbacks, maybe eight,
that they've had, ... they've had seven @uarterbacks since feb, or March of last year, correction of 2023, if I recall correctly,
I think they need all seven, including Driskell, and Dobbs, maybe even Brissett, <good gosh no, imo, , and DTR, and ... PJ Walker and Watson, and Flacco, and Jeff Driskell,
It's the AFC NORTH, do you realize how many players have had a torn Pectoral for the Browns in the last five years?
This game is Brutal, Barbara Streisand brutal,
Cher as supposedly pretty brutal. <now that is brutal.
This and one other post telling us how Flacco's going to regress are your only posts in the last 3 weeks. You're really butt hurt over the Browns doing well, aren't you?
I'm excited over Flacco's performance as most are but .......
Lol. You can't even make a positive post without a "but....."
"the organization itself is proving that you do not have to have an elite top 5 QB to be a Super Bowl competitor."
The issue with this statement is Flacco has been basically playing like an elite top 5 QB for the past 5 weeks. Over the past 5 weeks he's been top 5 in many stats, and that doesn't include his key throws and etc in games. He's not putting up PJ Walker stats, he's been putting up top of the line stats through 5. So that contradicts that statement.
The other thing is you and the OP do not like Stefanski for various of reasons. Sticking up for Flacco contradicts all the negative things said about Stefanski. A big part of Flacco playing great is b/c of himself. ALSO, Flacco playing great ball is a reflection of Stefanski putting him (and the offense) in a position to succeed. Don't agree? When has the last time Flacco has played anywhere close to this level he has the past 5 games? It's been many years. How many teams passed on picking him up this year? At least a few...how many I won't assume a number.
This whole thread was about taking a shot at DW. Meanwhile, while you are doing that, you are just showing what a damn good coach Stefanski. Which is the other person you both hate. That is confusing and contradicting. All I am seeing is crap being thrown at the wall to see what sticks.
The meme about Flacco vs DW and showing the contracts is silly. You could take Flacco vs Burrow, Rodgers, Wilson, or most of the NFL QBs and show that "gotcha" moment. We are winning games, about to make our third appearance in 20+ years and a couple are more concerned about sucker punching DW and keeping him down than being stoked about the team. DW and his contract have no bearing on teams culture and the rest of this season. When next year hits, his contract won't mean a whole lot either, b/c Berry is a damn good GM and knows how to work contracts and will still bring in players to fill holes.
"the organization itself is proving that you do not have to have an elite top 5 QB to be a Super Bowl competitor."
The issue with this statement is Flacco has been basically playing like an elite top 5 QB for the past 5 weeks. Over the past 5 weeks he's been top 5 in many stats, and that doesn't include his key throws and etc in games. He's not putting up PJ Walker stats, he's been putting up top of the line stats through 5. So that contradicts that statement.
The other thing is you and the OP do not like Stefanski for various of reasons. Sticking up for Flacco contradicts all the negative things said about Stefanski. A big part of Flacco playing great is b/c of himself. ALSO, Flacco playing great ball is a reflection of Stefanski putting him (and the offense) in a position to succeed. Don't agree? When has the last time Flacco has played anywhere close to this level he has the past 5 games? It's been many years. How many teams passed on picking him up this year? At least a few...how many I won't assume a number.
This whole thread was about taking a shot at DW. Meanwhile, while you are doing that, you are just showing what a damn good coach Stefanski. Which is the other person you both hate. That is confusing and contradicting. All I am seeing is crap being thrown at the wall to see what sticks.
The meme about Flacco vs DW and showing the contracts is silly. You could take Flacco vs Burrow, Rodgers, Wilson, or most of the NFL QBs and show that "gotcha" moment. We are winning games, about to make our third appearance in 20+ years and a couple are more concerned about sucker punching DW and keeping him down than being stoked about the team. DW and his contract have no bearing on teams culture and the rest of this season. When next year hits, his contract won't mean a whole lot either, b/c Berry is a damn good GM and knows how to work contracts and will still bring in players to fill holes.
…Cooper is a bad route runner, the annual - we aren’t going to be able to sign any free agents, receivers will not sign with us because Stef’s offense isn’t receiver friendly
And so on and so on.
This is that American Hustle movie clip that fans edit for football. The clip where Bradley Cooper comes busting open the office door and everyone starts celebrating, meanwhile there’s some guy pissed off on the couch. Bradley goes over and mimicking his actions, everyone laughs and the guy goes storming out.
We are all loving the situation, some just aren’t happy
I think its because Flacco is playing loose with house money, he doesn't have anything to lose at this point and can just grip and rip.. But funny stat, last time flacco ended the season with almost the exact same stats from W/L to tds and yards etc, was 2012
Just a guess - but our OL up the middle has been stout for Joe. He's not seeing a lot of pressure come up the middle - Joe's rap as being slow and somewhat statuesque might be as a result of pressure crashing through the middle and Joe not being as nimble/elusive when it's right at him as he drops back... When he's had pressure with the Browns it seems to me to have been from the edge allowing Joe to be less flat footed, and more easily roll one way. He's clearly a strong dude and hard to bring down - but just to me it seems if the pressure is up the middle it's harder for a bigger, less agile guy to dance his way out.
Looking at rosters - In denver Joe was throwing to Courtland Sutton (who I think is decent), Noah Fant (meh), Dionte Spencer (who?), Emanuel Sanders for 7 games and Desean Hamilton (who?).
At the Jets - two years of absolute dross at WR and TE, Jamison Crowder by far the best of the bunch for 1 year. In 2022 Joe was replaced by Zach Wilson after 4 games, He did have rookie Garrett Wilson and Elijah Moore that year.
I should add - Stefanski got aa lot out of a healthy Baker for his best year (until this year with TB) - KS got the best out of Brisset - and while DW hasn't (to date) been as successful as his time in HOU, you have to think KS is also having a hand in Joe's success this year too.
I agree. For many years I have said a solid 3 in front of the QB is more important than having solid edge players.
A QB can beat an edge rush if he can step up a few feet or slide left or right a few feet. The pressure up the middle is hard to defeat. It can freeze a QB.
I find it refreshing that the organization itself is proving that you do not have to have an elite top 5 QB to be a Super Bowl competitor.
The problem with a stance like this is that he IS performing like an elite top 5 QB since joining the Browns. Arguably Top 3, IMO. Hell, one could make the argument that no QB has been playing better than Flacco since he joined the Browns.
The Browns are in the position they are in not because of a game manager QB or simply one that doesn't "lose the game for you". Since Flacco has been here, the offensive performance/production has been one of the best in the NFL. Hands down. No question.
You can’t be top 3 with all the turnovers he’s had. I think the Browns are winning because of the defense, not the offense, because of those turnovers. But if we are splitting hairs here, the Browns are winning because they’ve found ways to win as a team while developing a culture that doesn’t do exactly what Schwartz mentioned in his presser yesterday…they don’t hang their heads and no one points fingers.
The maturity from this team is something we have not seen in 30 years. And that’s a testament to Kev and the coaching job he’s done this season.
It all works together. The defense is better because they know Flacco won't let them down even if he has to shake off a mistake or two. They play better because they know we will score points. They don't have to be afraid of every miniscule mistake on their part... that works all the way up through the staff and how they call the game.
I'll turn that inside out for a little food for thought... We wouldn't be where we 're at without Flacco's turnovers. He's left every bad play on the field and came back out firing. Coming off two picks and throwing that dime to Coop to beat the Bears, rush-hour traffic in the secondary be damned. If you didn't know before then -- you know now -- be where the hell you are supposed to be as a WR and he'll light up your stat sheet. And dude showing the fire to put Tillman in his place when he slouched on a route last week just helped to solidify the statement.
One of the things that really goes understated in this league is the synergy between a team's offense and defense and it's exponential effect on success. Neither can be bad, but you can't constantly have one putting the other in a terrible position without doing their part in the redemption department. When you see that on both sides, you truly experience the unity and maturity you speak of.
I agree at least to the extent that I certainly don't think people are giving Flacco enough credit. In some cases I think it's his smarts and selflessness that people don't see. On one Int. I saw it was third and long. After scanning the field he threw it long to a WR that was well covered. Now that may look like a bad thing but the fact is the Browns were well within their own territory. They weren't going to go for it on fourth and long in that situation. So what he chose to do was give his WR the opportunity to win the battle for the ball. If the WR lost that battle and the ball was intercepted, that int. worked the same as punting the ball on the next play. I don't think that's a bad play.
On another one we had no kicker. There was 5 seconds on the clock before the half so he threw up a 50/50 ball in the end zone. You either scored on that play or the clock ran out, which it did. Downing the ball or throwing the short pass would have made no sense which we have too often seen in such situations. The only chance to score was a shot at the end zone. I like a QB who uses his head and cares more about situational football than his stat sheet.
And it comes natural to a dude with that much experience. That thought enters his head as soon as he knows down and distance, even a play or two beforehand. A coaches dream.
Contrast that with trying to beat it into P. J. Walkers head that he cannot throw that ball into a tight window when we have a FG in play. After the second or third time seeing those decisions, I knew he was done.
Another huge piece of the puzzle is the overall talent acquisition of players that are good enough to keep around for more than 2-3 seasons. Take any 4 year span since the return and look at the roster turnover compared to the last 4 years. I'd be willing to bet that not one of those periods comes close. We have a stable of skilled veterans that have been playing under the same HC for 4 seasons. Just look at the pro bowl selections. All but Amari Cooper have been here the for the whole ride. We haven't had this kind of continuity since Marty was the coach. It's to the point now that we can look at one of the few areas of need and Berry will get us the best available vet to fill the void. We also have depth, I've had my worries about this but the players that we've plugged in due to inury have been above serviceable. We have coaches that are able to keep the players focused and motivated. There is a solid foundation to build upon. Good time to be a Browns fan.
Another huge piece of the puzzle is the overall talent acquisition of players that are good enough to keep around for more than 2-3 seasons. Take any 4 year span since the return and look at the roster turnover compared to the last 4 years. I'd be willing to bet that not one of those periods comes close. We have a stable of skilled veterans that have been playing under the same HC for 4 seasons. Just look at the pro bowl selections. All but Amari Cooper have been here the for the whole ride. We haven't had this kind of continuity since Marty was the coach. It's to the point now that we can look at one of the few areas of need and Berry will get us the best available vet to fill the void. We also have depth, I've had my worries about this but the players that we've plugged in due to inury have been above serviceable. We have coaches that are able to keep the players focused and motivated. There is a solid foundation to build upon. Good time to be a Browns fan.
#cultureshift
I've waited so long for this. For awhile, I was worried that I'd never see it.
I know one thing, I hope we keep this “let ‘er rip” mentality on offense going forward, regardless of who is at QB. With this D we can afford it most of the time and I think it’s game changing unless we get a QB that can’t throw to space or hit targets accurately and timely. For the first time since the return, I feel like we have a complete team. Most will say they haven’t felt that in a long time, if ever. I honestly think they can beat anyone and contend annually if we can keep this environment and culture going.
Baker doesn't have a lot of strengths. Not much to play too.
He had two of his worst performances in the last two weeks when TB needed wins to clinch. Good thing they were playing the Panthers today.
He was also hurt, and it was questionable as to whether he would be able to play or not. His run game has also been utter crap, and his defense has blown a couple of games. He has 28 TD and 10 INT. He's been better than solid, all things considered.
He’s been the exact same player. I’ve watched almost every snap.
If TB wants to give him a long term deal, good for them. I wouldn’t.
I would not want Baker back either. Tampa will regret giving him a long term deal.
Depends in the contract, IMO. I think they can (and probably would) do a lot worse than Baker Mayfield. Keeping him in the building while not preventing them from upgrading the position is the play.
Only three of the TB's wins came from teams with winning records. They also played in the worst division by far in the entire NFL where one of their wins against a team with a winning record playing other crappy teams was the Saints. That said, Baker had a year that will given him a pay increase, most likely.....just glad it is not here in Cleveland.
That sounds a lot like the description of the Texans division and opponents this season. No, baker is no Stroud but there are worse QB's starting in the NFL than Baker. At this point I have no idea what the obsession with him is. At least he led his team to the playoffs.
Only three of the TB's wins came from teams with winning records.
And all 3 of them (NO, GB, Jax) were 9-8. Which is where TB ended up. Good for them for doing enough to win the division, and Baker for doing enough to help them there. But I do not like their chances this week, I think TB is what Philly needs to get back on track. For a week at least.
🤪 no idea why Baker is the topic. I wish him well and hope he wins, but that's as far as it goes. Other than Evans and Godwin and White I couldn't tell you a thing about that team. I saw three or four plays from the Panthers game ... Panthers D was good or TB OL can't run or pass block that well.
Bone, tha is for showing me there is a reason for taking an interest in the other games. I could see Miami and Pit winning. Pit have less of a chance buy I wouldn't say its beyond possibility.
Another huge piece of the puzzle is the overall talent acquisition of players that are good enough to keep around for more than 2-3 seasons. Take any 4 year span since the return and look at the roster turnover compared to the last 4 years. I'd be willing to bet that not one of those periods comes close. We have a stable of skilled veterans that have been playing under the same HC for 4 seasons. Just look at the pro bowl selections. All but Amari Cooper have been here the for the whole ride. We haven't had this kind of continuity since Marty was the coach. It's to the point now that we can look at one of the few areas of need and Berry will get us the best available vet to fill the void. We also have depth, I've had my worries about this but the players that we've plugged in due to inury have been above serviceable. We have coaches that are able to keep the players focused and motivated. There is a solid foundation to build upon. Good time to be a Browns fan.
I agree. I think Joe Thomas called it the middle class. Most teams have 2-3-4 of the really good players. The better teams have a roster with a lot of the "good to decent" type players. Guys who are never going to be HOFers or even multiple pro bowl type players, but guys who aren't going to have any problem playing at a solid level in the NFL over 10 years.
Another huge piece of the puzzle is the overall talent acquisition of players that are good enough to keep around for more than 2-3 seasons. Take any 4 year span since the return and look at the roster turnover compared to the last 4 years. I'd be willing to bet that not one of those periods comes close. We have a stable of skilled veterans that have been playing under the same HC for 4 seasons. Just look at the pro bowl selections. All but Amari Cooper have been here the for the whole ride. We haven't had this kind of continuity since Marty was the coach. It's to the point now that we can look at one of the few areas of need and Berry will get us the best available vet to fill the void. We also have depth, I've had my worries about this but the players that we've plugged in due to inury have been above serviceable. We have coaches that are able to keep the players focused and motivated. There is a solid foundation to build upon. Good time to be a Browns fan.
I agree. I think Joe Thomas called it the middle class. Most teams have 2-3-4 of the really good players. The better teams have a roster with a lot of the "good to decent" type players. Guys who are never going to be HOFers or even multiple pro bowl type players, but guys who aren't going to have any problem playing at a solid level in the NFL over 10 years.
I feel like this is one of the reasons why Pittsburgh is able to pull these games out of you-know-where and stay relevant this long. Their roster is overflowing with these types of guys operating within very stable systems (offense/defense).
It's also why they routinely beat us down, year after year. With no depth, few true playmakers and wholesale turnover in the FO/coaching ranks every 2.3 years, Browns couldn't even beat mediocre Steelers teams. I remember coming very close to punting this team and never looking back ~10 years ago. When I saw the futility of rooting for a team with no roots, I really lost interest. Today, this team looks the way it does because the Browns did the one thing they'd never done before: stick with something through the growing pains.
Today, the Browns have a stable FO that seems to mesh well with the coaching staff. Professional execution of job duties with no hint of "Go root for Buffalo." In 4 years, this bunch have installed an infrastructure that functions as it should. But it took four years. That 2.3 year average I mentioned earlier isn't made up. I crunched those digits myself when I wrote my first "continuity" screed, years ago. In 2024, we're seeing the difference that 1.7 years makes.
Brownies: stuck in a Groundhog Day/short attention span loop for almost 20 years. Dark times.
Speaking of which, since Stefanski outlasted Black Monday after his fourth year, that makes him our longest tenured HC since the return, doesn't it? Now he's been in longer than Crennel?
The only place we may disagree is on your 2.3 years theory. I'm not dismissing your math by any means. But I don't think the length of time matters in terms of continuity if you have the wrong people in charge. I don't believe that four years would have made Hue Jackson or RAC or Kitchens a winning HC. At some point, if you have the wrong people in charges you have to pivot. Time won't fix that.
While Stefanski never bottomed out. There were no 0, 1, 2, or 4 game winning seasons. It never appeared to me that the team itself quit on him. No matter all of the noise we heard to the contrary, he kept a steady ship. That's something I hadn't seen before since 1999. I guess to sum it all up I would say that prior to Stefanski what some call the difference in continuity and how Stefanski proves continuity works, I would say that Stefanski proves that continuity only works if you have the right people at the helm. As I said, nobody will ever convince me that continuity would have helped Hue, RAC or Kitchens. If anything that 2.3 year average is too long to waste on the wrong people.
Crennel was from 05 until 08, so he had four seasons
He did... and when I crunched my numbers (way back when), his 4 years actually skewed the Average Life Expectancy marginally better... by a few .10ths of a point.
Our 20- year FO history was abysmal. Tragic. Embarrassing. I'm still shocked that this many of us have actually held on to share a season like this.
I'm glad I did, no matter how this run turns out. This season has given me the kind of fun I remember having as a Browns fan before The Departure.
And I get PIT's points, as well- bad management demands upgrades. I should have framed my initial post differently. Here goes:
It's unfortunate for Browns fans that they had to live through 2 decades of wilderness wandering because of ineptitude at the decision-making level. Junior couldn't have cared less about Dad's Pet Project, and 'Flying Pilot Jimmy H' spent 10+ years getting fleeced by hucksters before 76 Berea's s# began coalescing. (I will never forget/forgive Mike 'Golf Cart' Holmgren for how little he did for us).
_________________
The contrast between then and now is stunning.
Back in the 'Good' Olde Days, Sept-Jan was boring, and all the NewzNoiz came from 76 Berea... during the offseason. I remember telling my wife: "You go on ahead, watch 'Days Of Our Lives'... The Browns are MY soap opera." Nowadays, the inverse is true: we hear little to nothing about office drama... and the thrills are happening on the field. As it should be.
It took a lot of competence, dedication, and boring-ass professionalism to reverse decades of bad insertia, but it looks like Our Browns have finally done it.
Dawgs: 4 years of competent consistency (thank you, PIT ) have given us a 5th seed playoff berth, a better than 50% chance to advance... and most importantly of all:
A foundation for future seasons.
That's what makes watching this season so much fun for me. I'm enjoying The Now, while also thinking about next season.
Not scared today. Not scared about next year.
That is something very new for this long-time Browns fan. This is fun. Fun without apprehension.
This season is what you want to feel during a season.
You want to be nervous and anxious before a game knowing it means something. The thrill of having your team smack dab in the middle of the hunt to win the title.
I am glad to be a Browns fan right now. I know we finally have it together.
We have a good team with the right people in place to be good in the future.
Crennel was from 05 until 08, so he had four seasons
Right, and IIRC he was fired on Black Monday after his fourth season. Since Stefanski survived Black Monday after his fourth season (and is still actually coaching games), he is now officially the longest tenured since the return, right?
Crennel was from 05 until 08, so he had four seasons
Right, and IIRC he was fired on Black Monday after his fourth season. Since Stefanski survived Black Monday after his fourth season (and is still actually coaching games), he is now officially the longest tenured since the return, right?
[channeling my 'inner Ed McMahon']: "You are correct, sir!"
,![[Linked Image from media.giphy.com]](https://media.giphy.com/media/P7JmDW7IkB7TW/giphy.gif)
) have given us a 5th seed playoff berth, a better than 50% chance to advance... and most importantly of all: