Holmgren on QBs at the Combine . . .

Would love to get a peek at his bank accounts.

j/c

i think the biggest thing that bothers me about drafting qbs in general is the fallicy that there is definitely a franchise qb in each draft. heck, look at the 07 draft. any of those qbs remotely close to a qb worth having? and to use your argument, toad, any pick wasted on any of those 07 qb prospects is a wasted pick (1st over, 21st overall, 2nd round, 3rd round) pick that could've been someone else.

the more i think about it, the more surprised i think i'd be if we picked a qb in the 1st round, maybe even the first two rounds. looking at holmgren's history, all his qbs came from the 2nd day (from very recent article that escapes me right now).

that said, maybe all that changes when we get to see bradford throw. i don't know.

Favre was traded to the Packers for a the 19th pick in the 1st round (he was drafted in the 2nd round).

Holmgren swapped 1st rounders (had pick 10, got pick 17 in return) with the Packers to get Hasselbeck, who was originally drafted in the 6th round.

Holmgren has never drafted his starting QB (unless you count Seneca Wallace).

I do agree with you though. There doesn't have to be a franchise QB in the draft. As you pointed out the 2007 draft didn't have one and neither did the 2000 or 2002 drafts.

I think this draft have QB's that can develop into a franchise QB, but in my opinion those QB's aren't worth taking in the top 15. I don't think there are any QB's in this draft that can step in Day 1 and you can say, "He's definitely our franchise guy." like a Manning, Ryan, Stafford, or JaMarcus Russell.

I have made my feelings on Bradford clear, so I disagree.

But I agree with the premise that not every draft has that franchise guy. The '07 draft certainly doesn't appear to have one.

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Would love to get a peek at his bank accounts.

Eh, it's just a bunch of zeros ........

yea, i did leave out favre. it was a slightly different scenario imo but i also left out hasselbeck, who was picked in the 6th round the last year holmgren was with the packers and then brought him to seattle.

that said, you got my overall point though.

Just clicking

Not sure what made me do it, but I decided to check out Colt McCoy,

I checked out some videos on youtube and frankly, I get the feeling that he's an impressive young man. On the field at least. Haven't looked at any of his off field stuff at all.

Seemed to play alot out of the shotgun, can run, mobile, seems like a quick release.. appears competitive as heck..

Why so little discussion of him? What did I miss.. (keep in mind, I didn't look at a lot of stuff and I'm not a Guru either)

well you're not alone. i think he was considered a top prospect before the season started. at this point, i thought things could be good because he last said he'd be throwing at the combine. i believe the knock on him is his lack of arm strength as well as termpering his production with the system he came from. i was eager to hear how he does at the combine with the idea that maybe we grab him towards the end of the first day.

to throw a wrench in that, though:

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Texas QB Colt McCoy says his shoulder is structurally sound, despite revealing Wednesday that he won't throw at the Combine.

He won't throw for NFL evaluators until March 31. ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports that McCoy's right arm is structurally sound, but he is over six weeks removed from the "burner" injury. McCoy should definitely be 100 percent by now.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=5699

that's a concern.

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i think the biggest thing that bothers me about drafting qbs in general is the fallicy that there is definitely a franchise qb in each draft.

Some may think that, but you're right in that it sure as Hell isn't true. When Quinn came out, he was still the highest rated QB available but I didn't think he had a 1st round grade.

I think Bradford is a good bet to be a "franchise" guy, while Clausen is more in the Quinn mold, where his chances of success are a little less.

Hold on Thar, little Toadster

Did you or did you not? say that Clausen was a little better than Bradford, but due to "headcase" concerns you would rather take Bradford? Please enlighten me

Didn't think I needed to start a new thread on this,, but I bet someone does..LOL

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NFL Combine provides the next step to remaking the Cleveland Browns for Mike Holmgren's revamped front office
By Tony Grossi
February 24, 2010, 6:46PM

David I. Andersen / The Plain Dealer“Any trade information will be funneled through Tom (Heckert) and me,” Browns President Mike Holmgren asserted in preparation for this week's NFL Combine in Indianapolis. “Everyone’s [here], so you get a chance to bump into people and talk. We’ve already made phone calls, laid groundwork, opened the door, at the very least to have a conversation about any number of things."

• Browns reach settlement with dismissed GM George KokinisINDIANAPOLIS -- The NFL scouting combine marks the coming-out party of the new Browns' management team.

President Mike Holmgren, General Manager Tom Heckert and their new staffs of aides and personnel experts arrived on Wednesday for the seven-day football convention that is the modern combine.

Also on hand, of course, are coach Eric Mangini and his staff for their second combine as Browns coaches. But this will be a whole new ballgame for them and the Browns.

A year ago, Mangini and then-rookie GM George Kokinis were the Browns' decision-makers. Now Holmgren and Heckert are in charge and making their own observations on the 330 invited players in attendance. They will also be the ones planting the seeds of potential trades and deals with the hundreds of NFL and team executives and player agents prowling the corridors of Lucas Oil Stadium and the bulging city hotels.

Gus Chan / The Plain DealerBrowns GM Tom Heckert (right, with coach Eric Mangini and President Mike Holmgren) said the Combine is only a part of the remaking of the Browns' roster, coupled with free agent decisions. “We hope to get some things done in free agency and then do the rest in the draft," Heckert said. "But that’s a big ‘if’ — especially with free agency.”While scouting, interviewing and examining the players are the main purpose for the combine, the rapid-fire NFL calendar requires teams to juggle draft preparations with pressing roster decisions.

March 5 begins the NFL free agent signing period and trading period. Holmgren and Heckert have yet to make conclusions on which of their 13 free agents (seven are restricted) to try to keep. They will not announce which restricted free agents will be tendered -- and for what draft-choice compensation -- until March 4, Holmgren said.

Foremost in the minds of Holmgren and Heckert are the obvious questions about the quarterback position. Do Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn stay or go? Do the Browns trade for a new starter or seek one in free agency? Do they draft one and how high?

"It's part of the whole process," Holmgren said. "There are four things we're looking at. First we have to get a good handle on who our quarterbacks are in the building. Then I've got to look at the free agent list, who's out there in case you want to make a change. Then you have to look at the draft and who might be available if you're willing to pop early. That's a question. And fourth, are there any trade possibilities?

"So it's a little early [to draw conclusions]. I'm getting all the information I have to have to hopefully make an intelligent decision, not the least of which is knowing our guys better. I'm still learning about them, believe it or not. I've looked at all the film, but I haven't talked to the guys much, which I want to do."

Last year, Mangini was in position to take USC quarterback Mark Sanchez, but he didn't know enough about Anderson and Quinn to pull the plug on them. Instead, Mangini plied his Jets connection to pull off the first of three draft-day trades. The seeds were planted here.

"Any trade information will be funneled through Tom and me," Holmgren asserted. "Everyone's [here], so you get a chance to bump into people and talk. We've already made phone calls, laid groundwork, opened the door, at the very least to have a conversation about any number of things. I think that's where you start.

"I think everybody's thinking the same way. It probably accelerates when you bump into them at the combine. And then, prior to the time free agency starts [it heats up again]."

Heckert said the team's draft strategy is dictated by needs filled in free agency and trades, which start eight weeks before the draft on April 22-24.

"We know what we'd like to have happen, obviously not specific player-by-player," Heckert said. "We hope to get some things done in free agency and then do the rest in the draft. But that's a big 'if' -- especially with free agency."

So first things first, and that means this week inspecting the college players. Holmgren rued the decision of several higher-rated quarterbacks to not throw at the combine. He also doesn't like the new format of interviewing players.

Teams used to send gophers out to the headquarters hotel lobby to grab selected players to interview. Now the process has restrictions. Teams are limited to 60 player interviews of 10-minute duration.

"You're in there from 4 in the afternoon till 11 at night," Holmgren said. Buzzers go off [when time is up]. I can't handle it."

Heckert and Mangini will sit together in all of the team's 60 interviews. Holmgren said he will "cherry pick a little and focus in on the guys I want to focus on." He has a select list of players he wants to observe closely and personally interview.

"As far as Tom and me are concerned, he's going to look through his eyes, I'm going to look through my eyes, and then when we come back that's when we hash it out and come up with a consensus," Holmgren said.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/02/nfl_combine_provides_the_next.html

What do you all think of this.. They have an idea of what they want to happen,,, holy cow, a plan...

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Hold on Thar, little Toadster

Did you or did you not? say that Clausen was a little better than Bradford, but due to "headcase" concerns you would rather take Bradford? Please enlighten me

Not sure what you're remembering, but I've always liked Bradford over Clausen.

What I have said is that I like Clausen's tools more than Quinn's but because of his attitude I wouldn't take him at all.

I have also said that Clausen is a safer physical bet because he doesn't have the medical question, and I have said he's operated more out of a pro-style offense so he's a little easier to project to the next level.

Still, despite the shoulder, despite the lack of number of games played, despite what is likely a stronger arm for Clausen, and despite the spread offense versus more of a pro-style offense, Bradford has been and will continue to be my pick.

Clausen has all the tools, but what's between his ears is what worries me.

Daman, don't this as an insult, but I think you need to look more at arm strength. McCoy's ball really hangs in the air. In college, there are big enough openings for that to work. In the NFL, the gaps get that much smaller.

Also, Colt McCoy was only considered a top prospect by the non NFL Draft specializing publications, like CBS Sports and others of a similar nature.

Deep, I dunno if it was in one of the numerous PM's we've swapped, but I've felt that McCoy's arm would get exposed at the combine. Now that he won't throw, he's going to get a freebie by throwing here in Austin.

You've probably watched some games on tape. I've seen numerous ones live. He has benefited greatly by having Shipley and in an offense tailored to take advantage of his short accuracy and smarts. As you noted, he won't have those kinds of windows in the NFL, and he's going to struggle getting the ball downfield on windy, bad-weathered days. I'm also firm in my belief that he's not going to measure up (pun intended

) in terms of size. Even if he comes in at a "solid" 6'2 and 210, that's pretty slight for an NFL QB.

He may go in the late 2nd, but the 3rd is more likely. If it were me, I wouldn't bite unless he's there in the 4th or even later.

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Daman, don't this as an insult, but I think you need to look more at arm strength.

I understand you aren't insulting me., it's cool, I don't know enough to argue about QB's,, that's why I was asking the questions.. thanks

It has come up, and I completely agree with every word.

I've also heard Clausen is going to measure in short.

And down the 1st round Clausen tumbles, hehehe.

I've watched some more of Clausen. He's reminding me more and more of Jeff Garcia.

Slightish frame, body-thrower, attitude issues, system QB..........hmmmm.....

I guess my thought on this is that the flip side is that you have at least a couple years in most cases of film of these kids throwing under fire with a live defense... then you will have their pro-day... what more do you really expect to learn from a few passes at the combine?

Any trade information will be funneled through Tom (Heckert) and me,” Browns President Mike Holmgren asserted in preparation for this week's NFL Combine in Indianapolis. “Everyone’s [here], so you get a chance to bump into people and talk. We’ve already made phone calls, laid groundwork, opened the door, at the very least to have a conversation about any number of things."

Nice and firm way of saying Gini wouldn't be making any draft/trade decisions..thank goodness..

Heckert and Mangini will sit together in all of the team's 60 interviews. Holmgren said he will "cherry pick a little and focus in on the guys I want to focus on." He has a select list of players he wants to observe closely and personally interview.

"As far as Tom and me are concerned, he's going to look through his eyes, I'm going to look through my eyes, and then when we come back that's when we hash it out and come up with a consensus," Holmgren said.

Does anyone really really think Mangini is going to laying any groundwork as to what players he wants???
Of course they have a plan and I get a strong feeling it's going to go exactly like a few of us already surmised...less Mangini..more of a good thing..

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Does anyone really really think Mangini is going to laying any groundwork as to what players he wants???

Here's the thing.. he's the HC.. and as long as he's the HC,,. he should have input into who they draft.. Not final say, but certainly input.,

If they don't trust him enough to at least evaluate his input,, then he shouldn't be thier HC...

SO, Yes, I think he'll be involved.. Yes, I think he's laying the ground work for the type of players he wants and I'll bet you that he's discussed this with Heckert and Holmgren...at length..

JMO

Pay attention Grasshopper..he'll have imput..but they're going to lay what type of players they are looking at for their schemes.. this will impact the offense but since MH already said that Haskgill is working with Dumboll on the offensive scheme(oh and they haven't installed his offense..yet) it'll be a form of the WCO..pretty clear it was going to be that anyway..
On defense this is no big challenge..34 players..real easy...total agreement..
But when it comes to offense..slightly different story..
First ..offensive line..need a OT..we all know that..MH/TH have had big strong OT's on their respective teams..so that shouldn't be a real issue here either..
OG's..eh...they'll sort through whats here and determine who's the best fit..

Now RB/WR/QB...there's where it'll get interesting ..if a trade is made for a QB...bank on it that MH will be making the final call on that and a drafted one.
RB..they like Harrison so he stays..Davis???...the rest..???
They need to draft a workhorse..not another change of pace back..
WR..said it before they need a deep threat and one who can thrive in a WCO...several in this draft that fit the blueprint.

Ahhh Master,,, you asked a specific question:

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Does anyone really really think Mangini is going to laying any groundwork as to what players he wants???

And I say,,,, YES.. he will

No he won't b e laying groundwork.. ...it's already been decided what they going to do..and he's bought it ...
WCO..some hybrid of it at first but eventually it'll be that offense..so what type of players will Gini look at?
Players who fit that scheme...not the crap they were trying to run last year.

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No he won't b e laying groundwork.. ...it's already been decided what they going to do..and he's bought it ...
WCO..some hybrid of it at first but eventually it'll be that offense..so what type of players will Gini look at?
Players who fit that scheme...not the crap they were trying to run last year.

I think you are correct on offense.....but........

Holmgren hasn't brought any 4-3 guru's on board though......and hasn't removed any 3-4 guru's from Mangini's staff.

So, I think that Mangini might get in a conference room with Rob Ryan and make a list of defensive attributes they want from each position and exactly which positions require upgrading the most. I believe they will then deliver this list to Holmgren/Heckert and in a defensively deep draft, expect that 6 or so of our 11 picks be used on defense.

just my 2 cents of course....

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I guess my thought on this is that the flip side is that you have at least a couple years in most cases of film of these kids throwing under fire with a live defense... then you will have their pro-day... what more do you really expect to learn from a few passes at the combine?

The opportunity to see them in person, up close, in a non-Pro Day environment. As has been pointed out already, Pro Days are highly orchestrated events with cherry picked receivers and throws, etc...

Getting to watch them go through the very same drills with the very same receivers as every other QB on the very same day... there's a lot of value in that.

Man, reading the last few posts (prp's aside) I feel like this board is incorporating morse code or congolese clicks or something to hide hidden messages.

What's with all the redundant/extraneous punctuation anyways? Not that it matters, but it takes extra effort to type ',' three times or '.' five times. Is it to force the reader to give more time to ponder your point?????

I'm...... Not..... Sure...... What ........ you ,,,,,,, Mean!

So, I think that Mangini might get in a conference room with Rob Ryan and make a list of defensive attributes they want from each position and exactly which positions require upgrading the most. I believe they will then deliver this list to Holmgren/Heckert and in a defensively deep draft, expect that 6 or so of our 11 picks be used on defense.

No I said on defense this is not a issue since they are staying in the 34 ..Gini/Ryan can say what they want exactly... there's no debate about what type of players they should want and have .

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Man, reading the last few posts (prp's aside) I feel like this board is incorporating morse code or congolese clicks or something to hide hidden messages.

What's with all the redundant/extraneous punctuation anyways? Not that it matters, but it takes extra effort to type ',' three times or '.' five times. Is it to force the reader to give more time to ponder your point?????

.. / -.. --- / -. --- - / -.- -. --- .-- / .-- .... .- - / -.-- --- ..- / -- . .- -.

http://morsecode.scphillips.com/jtranslator.html

call me crazy AD,, But I think this article indicates that Mangini has a lot more to do with the process than you are giving him credit for..

Just saying:

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Interviews a crucial part of Combine process
Zac Jackson, Staff Writer
02.25.2010
INDIANAPOLIS -Before an NFL prospect has to worry about his 15 minutes being up, he has 15 minutes to get the whole thing started.

Though the NFL Scouting Combine is probably best known for bench presses and 40-yard dashes, prospects can make (or lose) just as much money in the formal interview process. There, they come face-to-face with a group of people interested in getting to know more about them as a player and as a person.

It's all part of the extensive process of researching the prospect - from his personal history to his passion for football - as teams prepare to make the best possible decisions when draft time comes in late April.

"You may not always find out all the answers," Browns head coach Eric Mangini said. "But you get to look the guy in the eye, hear from him, see how he reacts to new material and new people. It's my favorite part of the combine because the character component of this whole thing is so important. You have to have smart players who can pick up your system."

Formal interviews are conducted each night at the combine. Teams pre-submit a list of 60 prospects they'd like to interview and the combine staff schedules them - in 15-minute increments - in meeting rooms at the players' hotel.

Mangini said the people in the room at a typical formal interview session this week include himself, team president Mike Holmgren, general manager Tom Heckert, assistant head coach Brad Seely, director of college scouting Pat Roberts, a Browns' coordinator and position coach and possibly another member of the scouting and personnel staff, depending on the situation.

Mangini said the Browns' plan of attack for such interviews includes having a DVD of each prospect's college games cued up, giving the player a chance to explain his role and responsibilities on each play and giving the Browns' staff a chance to test his football IQ.

After, say, three or five plays, Mangini said he'll often stop the tape and give the room a chance to ask the player questions. They might be innocent questions about his family background, or they might be intended to gauge a player's body language if he has any off-field issues to address.

Then it's back to the DVD, back to diagnosing and explaining what the prospect saw on a particular set of plays.

"Maybe it's a little bit of an interrogation," Mangini said with a smile. "I don't want a guy to feel overwhelmed but at the same time dealing with pressure is a big part of succeeding in the NFL.

"I take notes during the interviews then I always go back to those notes when I go back to the guy's film later on. I try to see what he's seeing and thinking. It's important to be objective, but everything about the evaluation process becomes a little easier after you've met a guy face to face."

Because the formal interviews come at the end of long days here, teams also get a chance to judge a player's ability to stay focused.

"A guy's ninth or tenth interview of the day could be our first exposure to him," Mangini said. "He's tired, he's weary, but how he handles himself in front of us is what we'll remember going forward."

The combine is Mangini's first personal exposure to any of this year's draft prospects. Heckert, the college scouting staff and the Browns' assistant coaches attended the Senior Bowl in late January. The scouting staff was also at the other postseason all-star games and had exposure to many of the prospects last fall.

This week the Browns get their first exposure to many of the talented underclass prospects who gave up their remaining college eligibility to enter the draft. They'll get official measurements on every player here and get to make further evaluations on the 60 players who sit for formal interviews. Each team will finalize its list of 30 players it wishes to bring in for "home" facility visits in the coming weeks.

The 30 visits later in the spring "are when you spend the most time with the guy, he meets people in your building and you try to really build at least a small comfort level," Mangini said. "But this first impression counts. It might be the only impression."

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/article.php?id=10488

You should already know I'm not giving him a whole lotta credit for anything that he doesn't earn....whats he's gonna do while he's there..think of ways to to upsurp Heckert on draft day?

Too many layers for that to happen..he won't making the selections..that I'm very comfortable with..he ain't screwing up this draft..

He's got a milkbone to chew while he's there..assignment: Interview prospect players...no biggie..and anything he says in a interview..either it's overvalued or not that important right now.

While Mangini won't be making he final decision to think the head coach won't have any input on draft day is rather foolish. Holmgren has said that himself. Everyone in the room is going to have a say in what happens. I also doubt since MH is a former HC himself he isn't going to stick his coach with someone he doesn't want. Just like he wouldn't have wanted that done to him.

Where did I say he won't be having any imput?
I said he won't be making the final decison..he won't be controlling the draft or any decisions like that.
He can give 'em all the imput he wants ..

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You should already know I'm not giving him a whole lotta credit for anything that he doesn't earn....whats he's gonna do while he's there..think of ways to to upsurp Heckert on draft day?

So let me get this right, you are giving Mangini a Beat Down for things you THINK he may do? Do I have that right?

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Too many layers for that to happen..he won't making the selections..that I'm very comfortable with..he ain't screwing up this draft..

Two months ago, it really did look like a SURE thing that Mangini and the entire staff would be tossed out.. That didn't happen.. I just wouldn't count him out until you see him on the mat, bleeding and his eyelids closed......

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He's got a milkbone to chew while he's there..assignment: Interview prospect players...no biggie..and anything he says in a interview..either it's overvalued or not that important right now.

That's your opinion and certainly you are entitled to it... But it's NOT a proven fact.. In the end, you might be right.. but there isn't any way to know that at this point..

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Does anyone really really think Mangini is going to laying any groundwork as to what players he wants???
Of course they have a plan and I get a strong feeling it's going to go exactly like a few of us already surmised...less Mangini..more of a good thing..

I agree with tacker...Mangini is along for the ride on the Holmgren/Heckert draft bus. Mangini will be involved to a degree, but the draft is no longer under Mangini's control...and that is a good thing, IMO.

The Browns did not hire Holmgren and Heckert to watch Mangini conduct the Browns draft. Mangini lost that power the day Holmgren was named President of Browns and Heckert was named GM.

I'm sure that Holmgren and Heckert will listen to Mangini's opinion but ultimately, who is drafted by the Browns will be determined by Holmgren and Heckert and their staffs.

Mangini's job is to coach...

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I agree with tacker...Mangini is along for the ride on the Holmgren/Heckert draft bus. Mangini will be involved to a degree, but the draft is no longer under Mangini's control...and that is a good thing, IMO.

I didn't say it would be under Manginis control.. that's completly clear that it won't. But I just feel that he's more included in decisions than AD thinks,,,,

So let me get this right, you are giving Mangini a Beat Down for things you THINK he may do? Do I have that right?

Since you took the time to quote me and yet asked that kind of question,the answer as usual is no,you don't have it right.

Two months ago, it really did look like a SURE thing that Mangini and the entire staff would be tossed out.. That didn't happen.. I just wouldn't count him out until you see him on the mat, bleeding and his eyelids closed......

I said there was a chance he could stay but I was one of many that felt he would be jettisoned...His jaw is already swollen and he has glasses on to so one sees the jab his eyes already took..
I haven't been totally off on these things..just as I said what type of offense is going to be run..who's really in charge and Gini is on a one year leash..

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Since you took the time to quote me and yet asked that kind of question,the answer as usual is no,you don't have it right.

I'll take you at your word,, But I gotta admit, it sounded like it to me....

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I said there was a chance he could stay but I was one of many that felt he would be jettisoned

I thought the same thing at the time,, my point was and is, don't count this guy out.. not yet..

I would agree with that but I wouldn't downplay the importance of his interviews.. that is where you learn about a players intelligence and personality, the two things Mangini and his staff will have to deal with on a daily basis.. "Can we work with this guy?" That's an important question. In the end, I think Holmgren and Heckert will put their talent evals down beside Mangini's interview evals and make a decision.. Don't know what the weighting will be.. 50/50.. probably not. Getting a brilliant scholar with no skills is just as bad as getting a freak athlete who is a headcase.... I'm just glad we have more than one person at the top pulling the strings, likely to get more balanced input.

Since we have similar threads running at the same time...I'm going to cross reference a story about Tebow's throwing motion...Holmgren commented on the subject today at the combine...

DawgTalk

Mac,, Holmgren made it clear that Tebow is the kinda kid he wants on this team in terms of character, desire, etc etc.. But like the comment you referred to said and like so many on here has repeated, changing his mechanics is hard to do and holmgren didn't seem overly sure he could accomplish it.

there is a vid on either the Browns site or NFL.com that's pretty good do watch.. not sure where I watched it..

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Does anyone really really think Mangini is going to laying any groundwork as to what players he wants???
Of course they have a plan and I get a strong feeling it's going to go exactly like a few of us already surmised...less Mangini..more of a good thing..

Yes I do, all three will add, I do think the direction of the team or the direction holgram is gonna take us will prevail, for example lets say for conversation sake Mangini wants a QB in the first round, Holgram might say, Eric I think were gonna sign a veteran so in so, so lets address the secondary in the first or LBs are weak in this draft, lets go Lb and go cb in the second......they will all have input and it's gonna be a give n take situation for all three,

Mangini will have some say.. just as Heckert.. just as Holmgren. They will have to come to a consensus when it comes to getting that ONE guy though when its time to turn in a name.

Attack,, I think you need to see this if you haven't already..

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/multimedia/mediaplayer.php?id=6757

Now you can say whatever you like about how much Mangini will have or won't have to do with running this team.. But in the end, Holmgren is saying positive things about Mangini..

It would be easy for you to dismiss it as Holmgren being politically correct, but remember, he doesn't really have to say anything.. Mangini has the job.. if there were any underlying issues, I'm pretty sure he'd just not comment..

take it for what it's worth..

AD seems to think mangini is simply a puppet and MH is the puppet master.

I believe what Holmgren spelled out on several occasions....everybody will have voice and all opinions will be respected and considered.

I don't think he was excluding the head coach when making those comments.

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AD seems to think mangini is simply a puppet and MH is the puppet master.

Yeah, I agree. I tried to show him that that really doesn't appear to be the case.. but he didn't want to hear it.

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I believe what Holmgren spelled out on several occasions....everybody will have voice and all opinions will be respected and considered.

Go back to the presser on january 12th. Weiderman (sp), Holmgren, Mangini and Heckert. Holmgren made it perfectly clear at that presser.. Then backed it up at the combine.

Holmgren, so far, seems to be an honest and smart executive. I have no reason not to take him at his word. I don't think any of us do..

So if he says Mangini is a good coach,, I believe that he believes that with all his heart..

I do not often bother posting much as all I have to offer is my own opinion, since I don't work for the Browns and I am not a close personal friend to anyone on the team. I'm just a fan.

But one thing that seems to be overlooked is that Holmgen is not just an exceptional coach. He is, what I would consider, a coach's coach. He did, after all, start his career as a teacher. What he may see in Mangini is a young coach who he feels is willing to become a student of his coaching knowledge, and that he very well could be molded into an exceptional coach.

Why would any person with the knowledge and ability that Mike has settle for being a branch of an NFL coaching tree, if there is even the slightest chance he could become one of those trees.

I know there a plenty on here that just think he wants to use Mangini as an interim for his coming back (to coaching) but I just don't see it that way. I know if I had his position I wouldn't take a step down, just to coach.

Anyway, just my .02 worth as I look forward to great year for the Browns.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I also think Holmgren sees Mangini as a student that he can help mold into a great coach. I believe Mangini has some good aspects to his philosophy, and is the type to soak in any kind of knowledge he feels will help him down the road. I honestly believe that he sees working with Holmgren as a good thing for his career. He has learned under some of the best, Parcells, Bellichek, and Marchibroda, adding the knowledge he will derive from the Big show will only help.

I in the past have bashed Mangini. I think many times it was more out of frustration then common sense. But I am willing to stay open minded about him since he has Holmgren's blessing. I don't believe he was kept as a scapegoat or anything of that sort. I think Holmgren believes that he is willing to work with the team now in place.

Daboll would also be wise to soak up as much knowledge as he could from Holmgren and Haskill. He is young and could build a great career if he uses the knowledge now available to him.

On the Tebow thing, I have to lean towards Holmgren's feelings on this. I believe Tebow is one of those players that come along once and a while. They are winners at every level. He may never be a NFL QB, then again he may end up being a great one, but IMO he will be a successful pro, and the team that drafts him will not be drafting a wasted pick no matter what position he plays.

Browns Lonewolf,, I agree with everything you just said..

There are those that are always looking for a conspiracy.. something flying below the radar..

In thier defense, it's hard to blame them given the GM's, Presidents and some of the Head Coachs we've had in the last 10 years.. then there is Modell that wouldn't know the truth if it smacked him up side the head..

Holmgren just doesn't strike me as the kinda guy that will try to bluff the fans.. Neither does Lerner.. Heckert seems like a straight shooter as well..

I think Mangini is pretty honest also. I know that some folks won't agree with me.. But Mangini,, while secretive and very very guarded, hasn't really lied to us..

J /C

Bottom Line, I dont care if somebody is puffing smoke up somebody else....behind or has strings tied to their arms & legs making them thier puppett.....as long as it turns into W's..plain simple W's

AD seems to think mangini is simply a puppet and MH is the puppet master.

U get the first salvo..I already specified whats going to go on and certainly in the other thread it is..MH is having his offense installed..
Puppet?
Only strings being pulled are U and Elbow..U believe he's gonna be this great QB..all I can do is...

chuckle..

EM may have cleaned house, but he never made any attempt at filling it back up. We're not set back any further than we otherwise would be. This roster is wide open and the timing for a qualified guy to fill it up properly is perfect for Holmgren.
Fill it up with players who can play in a WCO..we already have a small core that can ..so we add more that can..and they can all say it's EM 's team..

Thats what you want to say I think..don't really ,really care...he doesn't have a choice but to agree to anything that's laid out to him and adjust to the simple fact he's not calling the shots..That's why he asked MH for advice on DA and Quinn. He wants the direction from MH because he can't do it by himself.
If not he won't last here. And in that regard, Homgren isn't demanding anything from EM. He's asking for it, so now they can rightfully say they're working together on this.
But in the end MH will be making decisions..
..but of course U and Daman can believe whateva U want...certainly ain't about to try and change your mind..

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..but of course U and Daman can believe whateva U want...certainly ain't about to try and change your mind..

For someone that isn't trying to change anyones mind, you sure are working hard at an attempt

Listen, bottom line on this is that I don't believe that Mangini is any kind of a lame duck HC.. it's simply NOT in the best interest of the Organization, Players or the anyone associated with the team. Top to bottom, if MH isn't sincere about his comments about Mangini, then he's a damn fool for keeping him and his staff pretty much intact..

He'd have been way better off cutting the cord and moving on..

Clearly, MH saw something of value in Mangini.. I get that you don't.. and that's fine.. I just disagree with you..

I ALWAYS give reasons for why I think certain things and I lay them out whether anyone agrees or not..

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I ALWAYS give reasons for why I think certain things and I lay them out whether anyone agrees or not..

Yeah, I know you do.. I just disagree on this one.. But hey, in the end you may be right.. thing is, we'll never ever know for sure what's in the heart of any of the guys involved..

Lemmie ask U sumptin..there was much debate that MH would let EM run his own offense ..correct?

Now what's transpired?

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Lemmie ask U sumptin..there was much debate that MH would let EM run his own offense ..correct?

Now what's transpired?

Who said that? Wasn't me. I always felt from the day we heard that Holmgren agreed to take the job that the offense would be upgraded,, to what, I wasn't sure,,.. Of course, since that time, some things have happened such as the addition of Gil Haskel to help tutor Daboll.

But it doesn't prove or disprove that MH is sincere in his praise of Mangini... So I think you are grasping at straws.

The thing you are missing is that we did indeed have a poor offense last year.. blame who or whatever you want.. but it was anemic..

Holmgren retained Mangini and most of his staff.. Then brought in someone to assist/tutor on the offensive side of the ball.. I'd expect nothing less from Holmgren...

How does this prove that Mangini is anything less than in charge as much as any HC is?

Who said that? Wasn't me.

Always a miss here..I said there was debate..and even U made comments on it..
My point..simple..most think EM is calling his shots..so lets look at how things are progressing..he's not installing any offense..MH/Haskgill are..and they going at Dayboll to implant it.
Phase 1.
Any trades that occure will be through MH/TH..phase 2.
It's also apparent MH did not like how EM handled the QB situation..so he's said what he wants to happen..funny..EM didn't utter those words..oh they'll ask him his thoughts (even though I'm sure Gini doesn't like BQ)..but the final decision won't be made by Eric.

But it doesn't prove or disprove that MH is sincere in his praise of Mangini... So I think you are grasping at straws.

Praise is relative Daman..it's not as deep as U want to grasp it to be..and I'm certainly not concerned about how much MH comments postively about Gini..of course he's going to praise him for the time being..dude has nothing else to stand on..and MH isn't going to verbally bash him..but certain quotes already show he's critiquing him..
All you need to do is follow the quotes ,see who's laying out the plan and you'll see who's in charge...EM doesn' have any more power than any other coach and he has far less power than he had last year..