I have been a member of this forum now for roughly about 6 months and have been awfully impressed with many of your opinions/ideas on how to make this a better team. I really enjoy reading what other Browns fans have to say about this team. I don’t know if it is too early to starting posting about the 2012 Draft or if you have a separate section regarding this topic, but I thought I would post something as I have thought about what we should do this upcoming off-season for a while now and want to know what your opinions are regarding the draft (if there is a thread about this out there and I have missed it, I do apologize). I posted this on PSD, but this forum has a heck of a lot more active posters, which I think could lead to a good discussion. I haven’t posted any of my thoughts to this forum due to the fact that I have not been certain on the direction I would like the Browns to go this upcoming off -season. Now that we are in the final quarter of the season, the draft is something that us Browns fans start looking into more and offering ideas and suggestions, I thought it was time for me to throw my two cents into the mix.
First off, I do not understand why everyone seems to jump on the bandwagon of drafting a QB with our first pick. We have not supplied Colt with ANY offensive weapons in his two years of being on this football team. We have supplied him with two different coaches, two different offensive philosophies, two different playbooks and a lockout to not be able to prepare for a season in which he was most likely going to be our starter. I hope that I am wrong in this, but I think Hillis may be a one year wonder (plus we may lose him in free agency next year). Trust me, I hope he resigns (with a contract that is heavy on incentives) and rushes for 1,000 yards the next 5 years, but I just don’t see that happening. Little, I think could be a good #2 WR, but is still learning the game and hopefully learns how to catch the ball. We all know that the right side of our OL needs help.
H&H has gone big time defense with the last two drafts and I think, along with many other people on this forum, that our defense could be real nasty in the near future. You must remember that we are very young and do not have a lot of players with a ton of game experience. To give up on Colt without giving him a chance to succeed is something that I do not want to see happen, next year at least.
Before I can even go into my draft strategy, I have to discuss free agency. As much as it hurts me to say this, I do not believe that a high name WR or a Mario Williams type of player will come to Cleveland. Even if we throw out a huge contract, which I do not think H&H will do, they are not going to want to come to Cleveland. With that being said, what other areas do we need help with that might be able to be taken care of in free agency. I think we could be players in some of the top free agents on the OL, LB, and DL (in that order). If we can land one, if not two OL improvements (which should be too hard considering the right side of our line), then we will not be forced to spend a high draft choice on an OLmen. Not saying that walterfootball.com knows everything, but they do have 8-10 OL being drafted in the 3rd round, two of which are from Wisconsin. Now, I don’t know anything about either Badger player, however, I do know that Wisconsin produces good OLmen. Also remember, we should be back Steinbach next year and Pinckston is getting great playing experience this year.
With that being said, I’m all about taking Trent Richardson with our first pick. He has had a killer year going up against SEC defenses that produce quality NFL players. Even if Hillis comes back, that will provide us with a great 1-2 punch at RB. Now, for those of you who think that Floyd will drop to Atlanta’s pick, keep on dreaming. There is no way he drops past 20 and I think Atlanta will make the playoffs (even though I do like rooting against them as my roommate is from Atlanta). One name that I see moving up and up on draft boards is the WR out of Baylor in Kendall Wright. He might be worth grabbing with Atlanta’s pick if they make the playoffs as I think he will be a late first round type of player when he runs a sub 4.45 at the combine, which is something our WR’s do not possess.
The key to this draft is hitting with our 2nd round pick no matter what position it is. If we can nab 3 starters with our first three picks and then fill in depth with SPEED, yes SPEED with our picks rounds 3 and on, I think we could be headed in the right direction. I’m talking like Oakland Raiders type of draft strategy where they take the fastest guy on the board. We have one of the slowest teams in the NFL and if H&H believe in their coaches, then we need to take the best/fastest athlete available and turn them into a football player.
My last point I want to make is that a few people on this board have mentioned about trading down. I would be all about trading down our top pick if we could still land someone like Richardson in the teen’s. I think one post I saw was to trade our top pick for Cincy’s two first rounders….I would do that in a HEARTBEAT!!! The more depth and quality of players we can land on this football team, the better they will become in the future. When Holmgren started a few years ago, I thought it was going to take 3-5 years to turn this football team around. Well, we will be working on the start of season 3 here in a few weeks with hopefully an idea of what direction we want to go in for year 3. If Colt is not successful while putting pieces around him, then yes, I definitely say go QB with the first round in 2013. I’m just not ready to give up on the kid just quite yet.
I know one thing, I keep hearing a lot of people pimping Blackmon. But I hear the same thing about him as the receivers we have....good size, good hands and NO SPEED....screw that.
We have got to draft fast players on both sides of the ball.
Quote: Blackmon is not some slow possesion reciever. He's like Greg Jennings, not a burner but definately fast enough to be a #1
If we draft him, I hope you are correct.
He seems like a Boldin-type to me...but I am not that big of a college game-watcher.
He would be an upgrade for sure...regardless of whether his speed is Boldin-like or AJ Green-like.
In the end, I think he is gone before we pick and I am not a fan of trading up from 7 (or so) to get anyone who has even the slightest question about his game - especially a WR.
If he is there when we pick, I'm all over that guy - even before any QB not named Luck.
If Blackmon is there when the Browns are on the clock, you turn the card in and thank whatever diety you believe in that he was still there.
He's every bit the prospect AJ Green was. Natural pass catcher, very good speed. My favorite part about his game is how he gets on top of the DB on deep routes. It seems like he has a knack for getting a step on a DB, then cutting in front of them, shielding them from getting to the ball with his big frame. If he doesn't catch the ball (which isn't likely if it's a good pass), the DB usually gets a PI call on them for running into him.
Make no mistake, he has #1 WR top-end speed. I think his acceleration is even better for a guy his size. I will be amazed if he doesn't get picked in the top 5, and I think he will be a great WR in the pros. He can play a possession WR game, and he can be a deep-threat, he'll be good in the red-zone, whatever that team that drafts him needs him to do.
Quote: If Blackmon is there when the Browns are on the clock, you turn the card in and thank whatever diety you believe in that he was still there.
He's every bit the prospect AJ Green was. Natural pass catcher, very good speed. My favorite part about his game is how he gets on top of the DB on deep routes. It seems like he has a knack for getting a step on a DB, then cutting in front of them, shielding them from getting to the ball with his big frame. If he doesn't catch the ball (which isn't likely if it's a good pass), the DB usually gets a PI call on them for running into him.
Make no mistake, he has #1 WR top-end speed. I think his acceleration is even better for a guy his size. I will be amazed if he doesn't get picked in the top 5, and I think he will be a great WR in the pros. He can play a possession WR game, and he can be a deep-threat, he'll be good in the red-zone, whatever that team that drafts him needs him to do.
Very cool video. For all you guys who watch Okie St., anybody ever see Blackmon drop a pass? I haven't seen many of their games but the little I have seen I haven't seen a drop.
The other guy we need to consider is Alshon Jeffries SC. He is bigger than Blackmon and has amazing hands. He has been hampered by poor Qb play and there are questions as to his in-line speed. Anybody see enough of him to formulate an educated opinion on him?
He's the best WR prospect I've seen since Calvin Johnson. And Megatron was more projection as he didn't catch nearly as many passes as Blackmon in GT's offense. It seemed all he did was catch 40 yarders over 2 defenders...but he was pretty good at that.
I would love to have him on the Browns.
Greg Jennings is a good comparison...only he's a little better than Jennings in all respects except route running. And he's pretty good at that.
I'm assuming Luck and Barkley will both be gone by the time we pick so I'm not going QB there. I'd want to address one of our more pressing needs so WR, RT, OLB, CB or DE. Of those positions the following players should be on our short list for our first pick:
Quinton Coples - DE - North Carolina Justin Blackmon - WR - Oklahoma St Morris Claiborne - CB - LSU Dre Kirkpatrick - CB - Alabama Alshon Jeffery - WR - South Carolina Zach Brown - OLB - North Carolina Matt Kalil (but probably gone and a LT) - USC Johnathan Martin - a legit LT he would make our OLine stacked if slid to RT - Stanford Riley Reiff - same as Martin - Iowa
I'm assuming Luck and Barkley will both be gone by the time we pick so I'm not going QB there. I'd want to address one of our more pressing needs so WR, RT, OLB, CB or DE. Of those positions the following players should be on our short list for our first pick:
Quinton Coples - DE - North Carolina Justin Blackmon - WR - Oklahoma St Morris Claiborne - CB - LSU Dre Kirkpatrick - CB - Alabama Alshon Jeffery - WR - South Carolina Zach Brown - OLB - North Carolina Matt Kalil (but probably gone and a LT) - USC Johnathan Martin - a legit LT he would make our OLine stacked if slid to RT - Stanford Riley Reiff - same as Martin - Iowa
PERFECT List...If we don't get Luck/Barkley...
And eliminate the OT's unless we go RT at Atlanta's pick...
We can get 1 SOLID Playmaker outta that list with our pick...
And I heavily lean toward BURFICT at Atlanta's pick and move Jackson outside where he belongs...We need a HAMMER in the middle of this defense...And Burfict is much like Lewis was at Miami long ago...
I can't see St Louis passing on a weapon for Bradford so we're looking at 2 Defensive playmakers...
Coples/Claiborne and Burfict...I take that ALL DAY!!!!!!!!
you will find a wide variety of opinions on Colt McCoy ranging from him not being elite all the way to him being good enough. I don't think anyone on here is jumping for joy over him at this point. And with good reason.
But your point of him not being surrounded by talent falls on some deaf ears. You will hear that if you add a better QB, everyone else will elevate thier game. I'm sure that a better QB would be help, but I doubt the result would be a significantly better team.
Heck, a FG here and a caught pass there and we probably have increased our win totals for the year..
But to be perfectly fair, those that say Colt isn't the guy,,, may well end up being right. Myself, I just don't think we know the real Colt McCoy given the lack of supporting cast and let's not downplay that Shurmur is a new HC and he's learning also..
Quote: I don't believe we need a MLB. However I agree with everything else
I think we do need a MLB...DQ is too small IMO...or plays too small for the stat-nicks. I think he would be best served on the outside. He has two big studs in front of him and he still struggles with getting off the blocks.
That said, I don't want anything to do with Burfect (sp?) with any one of our first 3 picks.
I want 3 guys who have little to no doubts and who are better than the starter we have today at their position.
It's easy to do:
The best WR, CB, DE, RT available when we pick our first 3 picks should provide instant upgrade at positions where we are desperate for a better player.
Arguably the same with our 4th pick - being an early 3rd rounder - if we expand our look there to include a G or LB. Shoot...our 5th pick - being an early 4th rounder - may also bring an upgrade at G or LB.
Quote: And I heavily lean toward BURFICT at Atlanta's pick and move Jackson outside where he belongs...We need a HAMMER in the middle of this defense...And Burfict is much like Lewis was at Miami long ago.
I hope you mean Atlanta's pick in the 4th because no one is gonna touch this guy in the first 3 rounds. Honestly, I think 5th-7th is more likely. The guy is putting up like 20 tackles every 3 games.
Another linebacker that is dropping like a rock is Zach Brown. Nose dive out of the first round with his general lack of enthusiasm towards tackling.
At MLB, what do you guys think about Courtney Upshaw with the Atlanta pick or Donte Hightower with our round 2 pick? Upgrade MLB and move D'Quell (if he resigns) to OLB.
Quote: I don't believe we need a MLB. However I agree with everything else
but do you agree we need 2 LBers? I think we do and we just take the 2 best available ones we can reasonably get (either in draft or FA) and sort it out from there since DQ can play MLB or WOLB.
RT – not to be solved before the 2nd round at the earliest (because of value), but it’s ugly and has been since Tucker was a reliable RT (yeah, short duration there).
LB – not to be solved before our 1B pick (value again), but we need a LB desperately. Take the best one there or in the 2nd, but let’s get one. DQ can play WOLB if we find a good MLB. Fujita has been disappointing and can be replaced if we find a good SOLB. Gocong can move to SOLB if we find a good WOLB. So, let’s take a LB early in the draft.
QB – McCoy could get another year. I don’t have a huge issue with it as long as we bring in someone to challenge him (Flynn, a draft pick, etc.). If we have a choice of Luck(doubtful), Barkely(again, doubtful), or later on Griffin(I don’t want him top10, but late 1st or early 2nd I’d be onboard with), then I would jump and still let Colt start the year.
WR – very good draft for WRs and we need a WR. Let us take advantage.
DE – we need a RDE badly. But, not sure any will be worth our top picks. Taking the best DE when he’s not close to being the BPA is not a good value proposition. Might need to scour for a bandaid in FA (if Heckert will do it).
FS – our safety play has been terrible. terrible angles, terrible tackling, terrible coverage. terrible, terrible, terrible.
LB – again, wouldn’t mind keeping DQ as a starter and replacing Fujita and Gocong. not sure we plan on replacing Gocong though.
WR – WRs tend to get hurt, we need a deeper stable. Heck, we need to build the stable to house them in.
RB – possibly. I still think alot of the Hillis stuff is stumping for a contract and his injuries this year derailed him (see NBAPA vs. Owners to see how a resolution makes bad feelings go away). If we do re-sign Hillis, then we can take a RB late or UDFA or free agency.
OG – I think Steiny will be back and Pinkston will slide over. But, just in case, it’d be good to have another option on hand with a later middle round pick.
CB – always need another young corner with a late pick. oftentimes good for STs here too (especially early on).
It's not a good year needing a 43 OLB, relatively weak class for 43 LBs.....the best value is in the 3rd to 5th with guys like B.Irvin, L.David, T.Lewis, Spence, Trevathan
For OLB I'd rather look for a fringe starter/backup caliber in FA for little money than overdraft someone with a top 50 pick....we can't fill every need with this draft and considering the lack of talent here I'd punt this position to next draft or as I said FA
OLB and FS are 2 need positions this draft isn't very valuable at....value and need positions of this draft seem to be DE and CB....both shaping up to be fairly deep classes, esp. CB, but they are in high demand and thus go faster anyway
second...a very well thought out post, thanks for posting.
What the Browns do in the draft is going to depend on how we finish the season..if we win more games it will drive us down the draft board and alter the draft strategy.
Looking at the Browns schedule, it is very possible that the Browns end this season with 4 wins. The Browns could be in a position to draft top talent at any position they need.
It is assumed that the Colts will take Andrew Luck..here is the break down of teams with 4 wins or less as today...
...Eagles 4 wins, have Mike Vick ...Dolphins 4 wins, need a QB ...Redskins 4 wins, need a QB ...Panthers 4 wins, drafted Newton in 2011 ...Tampa 4 wins, have Josh Freeman ... Jags 3 wins, drafted Gabbert in 2011 ...Vikings 3 wins, drafted Ponder in 2011 ...Rams 2 wins, drafted Bradford in 2010 ...Colts 0 wins, will take Luck
The teams with less wins than the Browns (Jags, Vikings, Rams) look to be set at QB and could be a possible trade partner for any team looking to move ahead of the Browns to draft the second best QB in the draft.
With the possibility of trades to move up, there is also the possibility that Peyton Manning may figure into how the overall draft strategy plays out, concerning QB.
If the Browns are looking to draft the second best QB, they may not be in a better position to do so, than this draft.
Quote: It's not a good year needing a 43 OLB, relatively weak class for 43 LBs
Totally agree. I watched an SEC-Express game (kind of like the short-cuts... every play in an hour) of KY v TEN. Trevathon, for being one of the most-talked-about LBs, was pretty mucha non-factor in the game. He made like 5 tackles and every time the announcers would say "and guess who... Danny Trevathon." He was pretty ordinary in that game.
DE – we need a RDE badly. But, not sure any will be worth our top picks. Taking the best DE when he’s not close to being the BPA is not a good value proposition. Might need to scour for a bandaid in FA (if Heckert will do it).
is there any good DE that will be available in FA, that's not ancient?
DE – we need a RDE badly. But, not sure any will be worth our top picks. Taking the best DE when he’s not close to being the BPA is not a good value proposition. Might need to scour for a bandaid in FA (if Heckert will do it).
is there any good DE that will be available in FA, that's not ancient?
I hear this Mario Williams kid might be able to be decent
(no, I don't think we can get him, but he's technically out there and Brooks Reed has been playing very well in his stead for the Texans)
RTs should have Top 15 value for sure - I'm not sure why (in this day and age of game-planning defenses) LTs have "#1 overall value" and RTs are "not first round material"
I'm with you, not simply Blackmon, but play makers. We MUST get somebody in here that has the ability to change the course of a game without having to rely on a defensive mental lapse. Be it Blackmon, Richardson, whoever.
Exactly. I look at Green Bay with Rodgers, or even seeing Rivers for San Diego on Monday night (though I admit he struggles other times, Monday night was a good example of my point). When they're on the field, there's just always that chance that the next play could be THE play that changes the game. Or, with 1:00 left in the half/game, they could feasibly lead the team down to a score.
With our offense, we need at least 5:00 to run a quality 2:00 offense (unless the other team is up by so much that they're playing garbage D), and there's never really that "big play" thought.
Give me someone on our offense that we can say "yeah, at any moment, that guy could break one for a TD."
RTs should have Top 15 value for sure - I'm not sure why (in this day and age of game-planning defenses) LTs have "#1 overall value" and RTs are "not first round material"
they are about equal in draft value to me. this particular draft there seems to be a few LBers with late 1st / early 2nd draft value and then it drops off quite a bit. so, that is why I wouldn't mind using our 1B on a LBer if we found our guy there.
both positions are bad off right now and both need changes before next season though.
I find it odd that you have MLB as the least important position in the 4-3 defense.
That said, and I'm not going to get into position by position analysis, though I do appreciate those who did.
We need a playmaker or 2 on offense that actually scares somebody and we need to stop the run on defense.. whatever it takes to get that done.... Oh and we may or may not need a new long snapper.
I love Burfict. I have watched many of his games in the Pac-12 living on the west coast. I don't think he is a fit for this team. He is not very fast (faster than Fujita) and what most people complain about Gocong and Fujita is that they are too slow.
I think linebackers are more important than right tackles. Linebackers are the QB of the defense.
Great linebackers can keep your defense at a high level. I think you need great D-linemen to eventually win, but soild linebackers that become a mainstay can keep your defense good year in and year out.
I watched the ASU Cal game and it seems to me I recall Burfict getting benched because of 2 or 3 personal fouls in one quarter.. he really hurt his team with that. Just stupid stuff.
Quote: I watched the ASU Cal game and it seems to me I recall Burfict getting benched because of 2 or 3 personal fouls in one quarter.. he really hurt his team with that. Just stupid stuff.
Yeah, been wondering if we have the locker-room leadership to set this guy straight and help him mature the way he should in the pros. Definitely a beast, talent-wise though . . .
Purp.....thanks for the vid. The punt return he makes starting at 1:52 could have been the greatest ever had he not been shoestring tackled near the end. Unreal.
Too bad he's a sophomore.
As good as he is, the hype might be higher....and we'd see another Ted Ginn draft situation. Drafted too high and all the pressure in the world is on him to return every kick.
It will depend on the situation during the draft. If you asked me now, I'd say I'd be willing to give up a 3rd and one of our 4th round picks if it meant we were assured to get Blackmon with our first. I would be very reluctant to trade our 2nd this year to get him.
If Blackmon isn't there with our top pick, I can see Heckert going DE with the first pick and filling out the D-line. DEs in a 4-3 are your playmakers, just like OLBs in a 3-4. The need to be disruptive and cause turnovers. That's why I've been impressed with Sheard so far this year. I could see the Browns taking Coples with their first pick if Blackmon is gone. I'm not sure if I like Coples yet; haven't seen him play enough. From what I've seen, I haven't been blown away. But I do like the idea of a DE early first if Blackmon is gone and we have a DE rated that high.
If you go Coples at the top, I'd love to see them go WR with the Falcons' pick, especially if they make the playoffs and do well and the pick is in the 22-27 range. You got guys like Michael Floyd, Kendall Wright, and Alshon Jeffery who should be picked around there. I think they're all a step below Blackmon, but they can all be productive #1 WRs in the right offense. Pick the one you like best and go.
This would leave us to go LB, OT, or S with our 2nd round pick. I would lean LB since I believe this is a deep draft at the top for LBs, but it all depends on who is available and if they fit our defense, specifically OLB. I don't want to watch Maiava play another down; the guy is completely lost out there. Gocong also does nothing for me. Getting a MLB in the draft and switching DQ to OLB I think is an option.
I don't think I would touch Burfict until the 3rd, maybe late 2nd if you want to trade one of our 4ths to move up. The guy is super talented, but he is a MAJOR headcase, and his play has definitely dropped off this year because of it. I would have been all over him last year though if he was in the draft.
With this post, I am admittedly going to go way outside my area of expertise – and I know that that happens a lot. Anyway…here is how I would think if I were charged with running the Browns 2012 draft. Note: I am assuming that we sign no “high profile” FAs and get some mid-tier, experienced guys to help along the way.
This will be very, very light on naming the player I would draft and is based on what I perceive as the quality and quantity I am hearing of in this draft.
This draft appears to be light at LB & S. I only really know of the Alabama duo, Z Brown, & Burfect at LB and am seeing zero at S. It’s unfortunate for us because we have glaring needs here.
I think we are set – or believe we are set-enough – at TE.
I think Hillis is a perfect NCO TB/FB type guy. I don’t think he is a 350 carry guy and we don’t need that kind of guy anyway. I am not giving up on Hardesty but am leery. I expect Jackson to return and round out the RBs – which is what we thought we had at the beginning of this year.
I don’t want any QB not named Luck. I don’t even really want him given the present state of our offense.
That said…
I am focused on DE, CB, WR, & OL – not necessarily in that order – with my first 4 picks. I am concerned/excited about the breath and depth of this year’s draft, I am thinking about what is projected for the 2013 draft, and understand the concept/fallacy of draft value.
Rd 1
I am highly unlikely to take OL with our first pick…simply because that should be a LT and we have one of those already. So I am looking at DE, CB, & WR. I think Blackmon is gone before our pick and the other options – while good – are not worthy of such an early pick…so I am down to DE & CB. I am torn here…I do not think that we can make a bad choice…I would seriously consider a trade down if Blackmon isn’t there. I would not trade out of the top 10. (Willie’s pick = DE…think Coples)
Pick 1B won’t be quite as valuable as pick 1A. I don’t know what DE I would consider here as the best may be gone at this pick. However, I think a very good WR and/or CB will still be on the board. (Willie’s pick = WR…think Floyd or Jeffries)
Rd 2
Given that this is an early pick, I am likely to fill out whatever I did not get in round 1 from the “big 3” needs of WR, CB, DE. If a guy like Monte Ball is on the board…or one of the “best" LBs…I could be convinced to take him. Unlikely though. In the end, I expect that we will have picked WR, CB, & DE through this pick. (Willie’s pick = CB…think Minnifield)
At this point, I am thinking that we definitely trade down from 1A. If we do so and get an additional pick in the top 45 or so…we could conceivably have filled WR, CB, DE, and a real RT.
Rd 3
I would not rule out another of the “big 3” positions here – especially if we do the trade down mentioned above. I would try to trade this pick with one of our fourths (and maybe a sixth and a six pack of Yuengling) and get back into the mid-to-late Rd 2.
This is an early 3rd so it has value to another team and to us. If I have 5 picks of the first 60 I will do the nanner dance.
Whether I use or trade this pick, I have probably not drafted a RB/LB/S up to this pick…and probably look to do so unless there is another of the “big 3” that I really like. (Willie’s pick = RT think ???)
Rd 4-7
I’m going to get a G(s) and a LB(s)…even if I picked one or both earlier. I am probably not going to pick a CB (if I got one earlier because we have a lot of promising young guys now) and might consider a S (probably not though because the whole draft looks weak here).
I will not take a QB here - as we have Lewis - nor a RB because we can use Obi or Smith if we feel that we must have a 4th guy there. I am not going to grab a TE unless Watson is done and there is a guy we think is a no brainer. I’d consider a WR – even if we got one earlier – if we have given up hope on Mitchell.
Dream scenario:
We trade 1A for still-a-top10 pick overall and a 2nd Rounder (this year) and get a six pack of Yuengling for next year. We keep our 1B and our own 2nd. We trade our 3rd and whatever to get another 2nd. That’s (5) of the first 64…and four of them could be starters in 2012. (WR, DE, CB, OL plus an unexpected bonus 5th guy)
Hey…it could happen.
I’d be grateful if someone wanted to take that framework and plug in the names of the actual guy that would fit. I’m no where near a “draft guy” so I would appreciate the help if one were so inclined.
To make that easier:
Stick with the picks we have and assume no trades
Make sure we take WR, CB, DE, and OL in the mix of our first four picks - not necessarily in that order
Quote: And I heavily lean toward BURFICT at Atlanta's pick and move Jackson outside where he belongs...We need a HAMMER in the middle of this defense...And Burfict is much like Lewis was at Miami long ago.
I hope you mean Atlanta's pick in the 4th because no one is gonna touch this guy in the first 3 rounds. Honestly, I think 5th-7th is more likely. The guy is putting up like 20 tackles every 3 games.
Another linebacker that is dropping like a rock is Zach Brown. Nose dive out of the first round with his general lack of enthusiasm towards tackling.
I think he's overrated, but I doubt Burfict is around after the first round. Early second at worst.
I wouldn't be surprised to see an established disciplined squad like Pittsburgh take a flier on him.
1A DE Coples 1B CB Dennard 2 WR D.Jones or WR K.Wright 3 RT Adcock
or
CB Claiborn or Kirkpatrick OT Martin WR Jones or Wright DE Branch
ranges:
1A DE Coples, CB Claiborn, WR Blackmon, CB kirkpatrick 1B CB Dennard, 1 of top 3 OT Reiff, Martin, Kalil if they drop (not a fan of Floyd, unsure about Jeffery) 2 WR Wright, WR Jones, DE Ingram, CB Hosley, CB Gilmore, CB Minnifield 3 RT Adcock, CB Judie, CB Banks, DE Curry, DE Branch, RT Datko
Where is Monte Ball expected to go? I hear a lot of talk about certain players, but almost none about him. I think that he's just a junior ... but still, after the kind of year he's had I would expect to hear more about him in the draft mix.
1. Heckert has had many interviews about the ideal ends in the 43. Coples is exactly the opposite of his ideal. 2. You don't solve your running problems by getting a run stuffing week side DE.
Quote: 1A DE Coples 1B CB Dennard 2 WR D.Jones or WR K.Wright 3 RT Adcock
or
CB Claiborn or Kirkpatrick OT Martin WR Jones or Wright DE Branch
ranges:
1A DE Coples, CB Claiborn, WR Blackmon, CB kirkpatrick 1B CB Dennard, 1 of top 3 OT Reiff, Martin, Kalil if they drop (not a fan of Floyd, unsure about Jeffery) 2 WR Wright, WR Jones, DE Ingram, CB Hosley, CB Gilmore, CB Minnifield 3 RT Adcock, CB Judie, CB Banks, DE Curry, DE Branch, RT Datko
Thanks DJ
I only recognize about half of those names so it gives me some guys to watch - or try to anyway.
I can't weigh in on Coples because I know nothing about him. It is interesting - and concerning - that there are such opposite reactions to him.
It appears that there are a slew of top-2-Rd talent at CB. I think we desperately need to replace S Brown - and with Haden in a sophomore slump - I want another really good player at that spot. That opinion - coupled with an analysis of your lists - makes me think that I would go with my favorite CB with our 1A unless Blackmon is still there.
Q: Based on what I've framed so far, would you guys agree that Blackmon would be our choice if he is there? (Remember, based on my "requirement" that we go CB, WR, DE, OL with our first four picks.)
Blackmon at 1A still gets us a very good CB at 1B or our 2nd...in my mind though he is gone when we pick...so I am saying we get our favorite CB.
Again based on DJ's list...there are several choices/options that could easily land us 4 starters with our first four picks - especially CB, WR, and OL. I think we start with CB - somewhat based on "value" at our 1A - and then the dominos fall as they may to the other positions - WR, OL, DE - not necessarily in that order.
The position that worries me is DE. If there is ANY questions about Coples, then I am staying away from him at 1A - even though I know nothing about him at this point. I would work very hard to make darn sure either way.
The way that list builds/looks, I am afraid that our DE options - after early Rd1 - will not net an immediate starter at DE. What I am saying here is that if I do not take Coples and I get to our fourth pick (3rd Rd) - and even though I still really want a DE - I will be tempted to take the best "x" rather than the next best DE. (If that makes any sense.)
I am pretty happy about our ability to get a starter at WR, CB, and OL with our first four picks. I'd have my scouts get all over the listed DEs. I am asking Jauron and Rhodes if Sheard can develop to become the RDE if I love Coples but see him more as a run-stopping, LDE, type of guy.
Looking at your list helps me - if I am Heckert - to then start thinking about what I need in FA...and for guys who can start for me in 2012.
I am looking very seriously at DE, LB, S, and somewhat at OL if Steiny is looking iffy...maybe even if Steiny is a surefire return.
I doubt that I am looking for a starter at OL in FA...unless I am very uncertain about Lavauo...am uncertain about Steiny...and/or a good starting RT reveals himself as an option for us. (I would love a good starting RT in FA...I also wish I were 3 inches taller and that all chicks dig back hair...but I digress.)
A starter at DE in FA makes me feel better about drafting a DE outside of our 1A pick.
A starter at LB in FA tempers my temptation to draft "too early" the best "x" where "x" is a LB in a weak LB class. (As laid out in the draft scenario above.)
We need to make sure that/if we think Pinkston can be our RT. That will change our FA and draft strategies. I think Steiny comes back for at least another year, Pinkston takes over at RG, and Lavauo becomes a backup until Steiny is finished here. I just don't see Pinkston taking over at RT...I would LOVE to be wrong about Pinkston at RT and go get a guy like DeCastro for RG.
I am not going to look for a RB, TE, DT or CB in FA. I just realized that I basically said the same for drafting at those positions as well. I will consider a QB in FA.
I like the way we are "positioned" for the 2012 draft. I have no idea what options we might have at DE, LB, & S for free agency...but that would certainly be my focus.
If it's done right and a few things fall even-slightly our way, this team could get better in a hurry...and for a change, that comment seems based in reality rather than just hope.
Quote: I can't weigh in on Coples because I know nothing about him. It is interesting - and concerning - that there are such opposite reactions to him.
Well.. December 26th North Carolina plays Mizzou in the Independence Bowl 4:00 pm ESPN. Thats everyone's chance to watch Coples.
Coples is basically a carbon copy of Da'Quan Bowers minus some of the top end explosiveness that Bowers had on tape at Clemson. Coples is a fine DE prospect just not suited for RDE on our team.
Great question. I don't know what Jauron prefers although he's been quoted as saying that he prefers his RDE to be a little lighter and speedier than his LDE. He said that most offenses play right handed and you need to have a physically stronger DE on the strong side.
Jabaal Sheard is 6'2" 255lbs.
From what I know from Heckert he's looking for that sudden, quick athlete that can get upfield as fast as possible. If I were to point to a prospect that fits the bill on Heckert it would be Bruce Irvin, DE West Virginia in Round 3.
He's a quick twitch explosive guy who gets up the field in a hurry. He's 6'3 245 and would have to eat a few steaks to withstand being a RDE in the NFL but that's the type of guy to look for. A guy who can beat a capable NFL LT to the edge.
Brandon Jenkins, DE Florida State is another guy to look at as well. More of a top of the 2nd round type.
NFL supplements Indy Combine with eight others Posted on: December 8, 2011 5:53 pm
The NFL announced on Thursday it is creating eight regional combines to supplement the national Combine held annually in Indianpolis.
Per the league's announcement, the regional combines were created to specifically target three groups of potential players:
Players eligible for the 2012 draft not able to participate at the Indianapolis combine Players with collegiate experience who want to gauge their pro potential Players with some pro experience attempting to get back into the league
The first regional Combine will be held January 28 in Los Angeles. This is the only regional Combine on the west coast and the only one not held at an NFL facility.
The full regional combine schedule is:
Date
Location
Facility
January 28
Los Angeles, CA
Orange Coast College-Lebard Stadium
February 4
Houston
Methodist Training Center
February 11
Baltimore
Baltimore Ravens Training Facility
February 18
Tampa Bay
One Buccaneer Place
February 25
New York/New Jersey
Atlantic Health Jets Training Facility
March 3
Chicago
Halas Hall
March 10 & 11
Atlanta
Atlanta Falcons Training Facility
March 17
Cleveland
Cleveland Browns Training Facility
The new Combine workouts are designed to function as the Indianapolis event operates. Players will be measured and asked to perform all of the athletic tests -- like the bench press, vertical jump and 40-yard dash -- that occur in Indianpolis. The players who impress the most in the regional combines may then be invited to a newly created NFL Super Regional Combine to be held at Ford Field in Detroit, Michigan on March 30-31.
While the athletic tests are critical to prospects getting their names out there, some of the more underrated elements of the traditional combine will be more difficult to replicate. Teams rely on the extensive medical testing done at local hospitals while athletes attend the Indianapolis combine. Similarly, athletes are shuttled through team interviews in Indianapolis, making the entire process a well-organized, smoothly running event.
Legitimate pro scouts and NFL personnel will, of course, be on hand to make sure the regional combines go as planned. That said, don't expect to see general managers or head coaches parading about the sidelines at these events. Each team will be sent all of the information compiled during the regional workouts.
Every team is looking for the next great diamond in the rough. These combines are designed, in part, to aid in this process.
But with the draft less than a month after the Super Regional, most decision-makers will be focusing on who'll they be targeting in the first round not in the late rounds or undrafted free agency.
1. Indianapolis - Andrew Luck 2. Minnesota - Matt Kalis 3. St. Louis - Justin Blackmon 4. Washington - Matt Barkley 5. Carolina - Alshon Jeffrey 6. Jacksonville - Morris Claiborne 7. Miami - RG3
1. Indianapolis - Andrew Luck 2. Minnesota - Matt Kalis 3. St. Louis - Justin Blackmon 4. Washington - Matt Barkley 5. Carolina - Alshon Jeffrey 6. Jacksonville - Morris Claiborne 7. Miami - RG3
Quote: I don't want an o-linemen with a high pick. They don't score TDs, which our offense needs. We really need WSH to beat MIN and MIA to beat BUF.
Yeah...I lean that way. If we are picking 5th I am NOT taking OL...if we are picking 10th I am really considering it...if we are in between...I had better done my homework.
I wish I knew whether Pinkston was being considered as a future RT.
What would you do if we got a deal similar to the one we got with ATL - with our 1A? Move down to 14 or so...from 8-10ish...and get a 2nd & 4th this year and a 1st & 4th next year? It would certainly depend on where that team is picking.
If I do not want a QB that is left on the board and Blackmon is gone...I am not sure there is a player that I "covet" enough to NOT trade down if I can snare more early picks...and two #1s the following year positions us for the 2013 QB derby.
Quote: I wish I knew whether Pinkston was being considered as a future RT.
Pinkston started at LT for the Pitt Panthers for 3 years and now has a year experience playing guard which is probably the best OJT he could have gotten, to prepare him to move to RT.
Steinbach should be coming back to his guard spot, which should move Pinkston to RT, Imo. What the Browns do with Pashos is unknown, but he could be retained as depth for RT and OG.
If the Browns do move Pinkston to RT, it should free up our two first round picks to draft positions of need other than the offensive line. I could see the Browns using their 2nd round pick to draft one of the top OGs in this draft.
Quote: I wish I knew whether Pinkston was being considered as a future RT.
Pinkston started at LT for the Pitt Panthers for 3 years and now has a year experience playing guard which is probably the best OJT he could have gotten, to prepare him to move to RT.
Steinbach should be coming back to his guard spot, which should move Pinkston to RT, Imo. What the Browns do with Pashos is unknown, but he could be retained as depth for RT and OG.
If the Browns do move Pinkston to RT, it should free up our two first round picks to draft positions of need other than the offensive line. I could see the Browns using their 2nd round pick to draft one of the top OGs in this draft.
I am thinking along those lines as well...I am becoming interested in another trade down - of 1A - for additional picks if Blackmon is gone.
My target in the trade-down of our 1A would be DeCastro and a top 14 pick should get that. It may be over-drafting a little , but a STUD next to the re-located Pinkston would make the Pinston move all the more palatable.
I am thinking that a no doubt stud like DeCastro would facilitate Pinkston's move to RT...and upgrades Lavauo to be an interior backup. Sort of shores up RG, RT, and a serviceable interior backup OL with ONE pick...I realize that one pick is very valuable in more ways than just the one I presented.
Pinkston looked very bad in tackle drills at the senior bowl against "top" competition. I figured he'd go into the NFL as a guard only. When H/H drafted him, they said they took him expecting him to play OG, so I hope converting him to tackle is not our plan going forward.
if we HAD to draft OL in the top15, then it should be RT. that way we would move Pinkston to RG where he is better suited (assuming Steiny comes back healthy, no guarantee)
but, I think we should draft OL no earlier than the 2nd round (this time around)
If he's affordable (I haven't checked) and can also play Guard, you keep him and get rid of one of the lesser guys.
At the very least, you then have a solid backup at more than one position with experience in the offense. As much as it is disliked, he is near the top of the talent list for our OLine, and you don't cut from the top. You don't cut someone until either you have to or you have no need for them.
I agree, But and here is why I said Waive the guy....I'd also like to add, I'm one of the people who wants to draft a O-lineman every year in the top two - three rounds, So I'm a Off. Line person.
How many games did he miss last year, I dont have exact number but I know he missed alot....How many this year I'd say 3-4 and the ones he's played he's been pretty ineffective, I do believe he is one of our lesser talented lineman, due to his injuries, when he's healthy he's pretty good, but those years are behind him, he cant stay healthy, If he could we wouldnt be looking at a RT, we'd be looking to extend his contract.
Miami's Miller jumping to the NFL Posted on: December 12, 2011 2:53 pm Edited on: December 12, 2011 2:57 pm
Miami RB Lamar Miller is leaving early for the NFL draft, a source told CBS.
Miller had a breakout season for the Canes this fall, rushing for 1272 yards (the third-most in UM history in a single season) and nine touchdowns. He leaves UM with two seasons of eligibility remaining. The 5-11, 216-pound back with sprinter speed blossomed this year after learning to become a more patient runner. Miller explained before the season that because he was in such a rush to trying and make something happen that he struggled to let plays develop. The difference in his performance was dramatic. He went over 100 yards seven times this season as UM's feature back. In 2010, he ran for 646 yards and six TDs as a redshirt freshman, while also shining as a kick returner.
Miller is expected by many draft analysts to be a first-round pick. He figures to test very well in the pre-draft workout settings. He is considered one of the fastest players in the Miami program and is expected to clock in the 4.3 range in the 40.
Miller is the third underclassmen to declare early for the NFL draft, joining WR Tommy Streeter and DT Marcus Forston. web page
-------------------------------------- Miller is the third hurricane to declare, just to clarify. Kid has some skill and is clearly a first round talent but he could drop to the 2nd due to lack of need at RB for most teams.
For a team desperate for speed, Miller would be an intriguing addition as would streeter. Streeter is just now starting to emerge as a stud. Getting better everytime out.
Quote: Pinkston started at LT for the Pitt Panthers for 3 years and now has a year experience playing guard which is probably the best OJT he could have gotten, to prepare him to move to RT.
Steinbach should be coming back to his guard spot, which should move Pinkston to RT, Imo. What the Browns do with Pashos is unknown, but he could be retained as depth for RT and OG.
If the Browns do move Pinkston to RT, it should free up our two first round picks to draft positions of need other than the offensive line. I could see the Browns using their 2nd round pick to draft one of the top OGs in this draft.
I am thinking along those lines as well...I am becoming interested in another trade down - of 1A - for additional picks if Blackmon is gone.
My target in the trade-down of our 1A would be DeCastro and a top 14 pick should get that. It may be over-drafting a little , but a STUD next to the re-located Pinkston would make the Pinston move all the more palatable.
I am thinking that a no doubt stud like DeCastro would facilitate Pinkston's move to RT...and upgrades Lavauo to be an interior backup. Sort of shores up RG, RT, and a serviceable interior backup OL with ONE pick...I realize that one pick is very valuable in more ways than just the one I presented.
At this time, it's hard to know how much difference in talent and skill there is between the top 4 OG prospects in this draft.
David DeCastro...OG... 6-5, 310.. Stanford Cordy Glenn...OG...6-5, 340.. Georgia Kelechi Osemele...OG...6-5, 340.. Iowa State Barrett Jones...OG...6-5, 310.. Alabama
All 4 of these OG prospects are considered blue chip in this draft. That means, there should be one available by the time the Browns draft in the second round. If the Browns had to trade up in the second round a few spots to get the OG they want, we have some extra picks to deal with.
Quote: Pinkston looked very bad in tackle drills at the senior bowl against "top" competition.
One area that the Browns coaching staff has been poor at in the past is developing raw talent into starting talent. It has taken Oline coach Warhop more time than many hoped to coach up and improve the play of the offensive line, but they are getting better.
I'm not claiming Warhop is among the elite Oline coaches but he is showing the ability to develop young talent. Those Oline coaches that have the ability to take raw talent and develop them into starters are a very valuable asset to there teams.
I'm not about to claim that Warhop can develop Pinkston into a RT but then again, how good does Pinkston have to be to replace Pashos?
If the Browns can't develop someone into a RT, the Browns will be forced to go free agency or draft a RT. That might mean the Browns would have to use one of their 1st round picks to draft a starting caliber RT.
The last alternative might be to keep Pashos another year.
Hopefully Steinbach can come back and play LG without any problems.
I like Pinkston's play while filling in, but I don't think I'd keep him as the starter anywhere on the line.
Lauvao is garbage. Pashos isn't even as good as Lauvao. I'd draft a RT and RG and keep Pinkston in there as depth and look to keep another one or two for depth. Probably Vallos and maybe Greco since they're the younger ones on the team.
The best G in this draft won't be available in the 2nd round. We might be able to get a serviceable RT in the 3rd round. Either Levy Adcock or Nate Potter should be there in the 3rd round.
Depending on where our first of the 1st round picks is, I wouldn't be averse to trading back a few spots and picking up another 2 picks (2nd and 3rd in 2012) or something similar if we found that the value was there.
The Browns definitely need to fill some holes and people always forget about kickers. We'll need one after this season as Dawson won't be back. Matt Prater showed how valuable a kicker can be. Hitting a 59-yarder (yeah, I know, Denver's thin air and all) and then a 51-yarder to win it.
Quote: Pinkston started at LT for the Pitt Panthers for 3 years and now has a year experience playing guard which is probably the best OJT he could have gotten, to prepare him to move to RT.
Steinbach should be coming back to his guard spot, which should move Pinkston to RT, Imo. What the Browns do with Pashos is unknown, but he could be retained as depth for RT and OG.
If the Browns do move Pinkston to RT, it should free up our two first round picks to draft positions of need other than the offensive line. I could see the Browns using their 2nd round pick to draft one of the top OGs in this draft.
I am thinking along those lines as well...I am becoming interested in another trade down - of 1A - for additional picks if Blackmon is gone.
My target in the trade-down of our 1A would be DeCastro and a top 14 pick should get that. It may be over-drafting a little , but a STUD next to the re-located Pinkston would make the Pinston move all the more palatable.
I am thinking that a no doubt stud like DeCastro would facilitate Pinkston's move to RT...and upgrades Lavauo to be an interior backup. Sort of shores up RG, RT, and a serviceable interior backup OL with ONE pick...I realize that one pick is very valuable in more ways than just the one I presented.
At this time, it's hard to know how much difference in talent and skill there is between the top 4 OG prospects in this draft.
David DeCastro...OG... 6-5, 310.. Stanford Cordy Glenn...OG...6-5, 340.. Georgia Kelechi Osemele...OG...6-5, 340.. Iowa State Barrett Jones...OG...6-5, 310.. Alabama
All 4 of these OG prospects are considered blue chip in this draft. That means, there should be one available by the time the Browns draft in the second round. If the Browns had to trade up in the second round a few spots to get the OG they want, we have some extra picks to deal with.
The Milwaukee Journel Sentinal has one of (THE?) best football writers, Bob McGinn. Each year around this time, he gives an early look at the draft by position. In it, he interviews scouts from different teams along with their quotes about the different standout guys from each group. In talking o-line, the scout said DeCastro is a huge reason why Stanford is so successful and has him as a top 15 pick and capable of playing tackle.
Just thought I'd throw that out there....Another scout said his teammate Martin is more late round 1 material
I have the Browns losing out the rest of the year along with Indy, Minn, St L, Miami, and TB. That would put the Browns with the 5th pick as it stands today but could be the 6th if our SOS goes higher then TB these last couple of weeks. There's a chance Miami could be Buffalo this upcoming week but our ceiling for the draft is # 4 b/c the Rams and Minnesota won't win more then 1 game the last 3 weeks.
With that said, I'd say the draft goes like this: Indy - Luck Minn - Kalil (assuming he comes out) Rams - Blackmon Miami - Barkley Browns - Richardson TB - Claiborne Wash - RGIII Carolina - Coples Jacksonville - Kirkpatrick Seattle - DeCastro
Not what to think as that's awful high for a RB but if we can't trade back, do we load up on more defense with Claiborne or Coples? Take a flyer on RGIII?
The only way we trade back, is if say Miami and Washington are behind us and either we don't take Barkley (I might cry) or someone like Shanahan falls for RG3...
If were in the top 5, I'm not trading out of the top 10... We need better players more than more chances IMO
I don't think Barkley has the arm to be much more then average. I think he can win ala Mark Sanchez or Alex Smith but I don't think he can be the guy to carry a team
Colts aren't going to keep both Manning and Luck. Luck would probably reenter the draft before sitting behind Peyton for 4 or 5 years.
I think the Phins trade the farm for Luck. They already have a pretty good roster so for them to give up picks isnt that big of a deal.
Colts reload with Peyton, fire their HC and bring back Peyton's OC. All those picks from Miami and they are the team to beat in the AFC for the next 4 or 5 years.
Shannahan loves the mobile QB. RG3 just seems right up his alley.
Barkley just seems like the guy destined to fall to the Browns and we will probably be 4th or 5th so he isnt falling far. Barkley is gone, I could see Heckert holding steady and waiting to see which QB fell into his lap with the Falcons pick. Jones or Tannehill could be there.
I don't hear much about this scenario on here, but what do you think about the Browns trading their 1B or 2nd round pick for Ryan Mallet? Could sitting behind Brady for a year and maturing under Belichick be bad for him???
I'd consider it...guy has top 5 pick arm and produced in the best conference in college football. He slipped b/c of maturity...would drafting whatever bustout QB falls to our 2nd round pick be better strategy? Or Uncle Rico at #5?
I liked Mallet and I thought he was the #2 QB last year behind Cam. Apparently, I was one of very few that thought that way lol.
Colt was Holmgren's pet project and not Heckerts. I think Heckert like all GM's wants that signature pick. He wants his stud quarterback. The question is which quarterback does he see as that guy.
I know everyone is talking about quarterback and all but I think if I were to throw a mock draft out there it'd be something like this,
1. Blackmon, RGIII, Barkley, one of the three... 1. Depending on what we do with the first pick, we need a RT. 2. Draft Chase Minnifield out of Virginia to shore up the side opposite of Haden and also just draft the kid because his name is Minnifield. I really don't want to see us make the same mistake twice with a kid of one of our former players. Not saying Minnifield is going to be elite in the league like Matthews Jr. but I'd hate for us to pass up on talent with a pedigree.
Quote: I know everyone is talking about quarterback and all but I think if I were to throw a mock draft out there it'd be something like this,
1. Blackmon, RGIII, Barkley, one of the three... 1. Depending on what we do with the first pick, we need a RT. 2. Draft Chase Minnifield out of Virginia to shore up the side opposite of Haden and also just draft the kid because his name is Minnifield. I really don't want to see us make the same mistake twice with a kid of one of our former players. Not saying Minnifield is going to be elite in the league like Matthews Jr. but I'd hate for us to pass up on talent with a pedigree.
As bad as we need to improve our offense.. the players I want won't be there where we draft..
I'd love to see us get:
1a) Dre Kirkpatrick - CB - Alabama 1b) Vontaze Burfict - LB - Arizona St. 2) Vinny Curry - DE - Marshall
Vinny Curry probably won't be there.. but hey.. its a mock
Nobody on here ever seems to mention the 2 Bama Lb's coming out. Upshaw could be there with our 1b Hightower will be for sure and might be there with our 2. I would be happy getting one of those 2 wwith one of those picks.
Quote: Nobody on here ever seems to mention the 2 Bama Lb's coming out. Upshaw could be there with our 1b Hightower will be for sure and might be there with our 2. I would be happy getting one of those 2 wwith one of those picks.
i want no part of hightower in the 1st round. he's more of a 3-4 MLB to start with. he's bigger, slower(for his size he has good speed but not in general), and not very good in coverage. then, there's the knee injury. if he's there in the 2nd round, then I would jump, but I suspect that a 3-4 team will take him in the first (where he grades out much better).
Upshaw isn't big enough to be a DE but isn't fast enough to play a 4-3 MLB. he's a 3-4 OLB.
Lets suppose that the draft was today and that the first 6 picks went like this
Indianapolis.......Andrew Luck, QB Minnesota.........Matt Kalil, OT St. Louis...........Jonathan Martin, OT Washington.......Robert Griffin III, QB Jacksonville.......Justin Blackmon, WR Carolina.............Morris Claiborne, CB Miami................Matt Barkley, QB
No trades, no arguing about a team 1-6 not picking the player, etc...just the Browns picking at #7, who do you take? I'd presume that the most likely candidates would be Quinton Coples, Landry Jones, Trent Richardson, Dre Kirkpatrick, Alshon Jeffery.
I'd personally be torn between Coples and Richardson.
Lets suppose that the draft was today and that the first 6 picks went like this
Indianapolis.......Andrew Luck, QB Minnesota.........Matt Kalil, OT St. Louis...........Jonathan Martin, OT Washington.......Robert Griffin III, QB Jacksonville.......Justin Blackmon, WR Carolina.............Morris Claiborne, CB Miami................Matt Barkley, QB
No trades, no arguing about a team 1-6 not picking the player, etc...just the Browns picking at #7, who do you take? I'd presume that the most likely candidates would be Quinton Coples, Landry Jones, Trent Richardson, Dre Kirkpatrick, Alshon Jeffery.
I'd personally be torn between Coples and Richardson.
Given that, I'd take the DE. I think he is going to be really good and would have a major impact.
Quote: Anybody know where Ryan Broyles was expected to go before his injury and where he is expected to go now?
I'd like us to draft 2 wideouts with speed and actual YAC ability this draft.
He was a late 2nd at best to early 4th at worst pre injury
Since he is a slot WR only and has a ACL injury that will start his career on PUP I guess he slides to early 4th at best to late 5th at worst...really depends on the alternatives in the class and how deep overall the class is...def a guy worth taking a flyer on with 1 of our 2 4ths imho
Quote: def a guy worth taking a flyer on with 1 of our 2 4ths imho
thanks. that's what I had in mind, too. even if we have to stash him. Heck, we took Jordan Freakin' Cameron in the top of the fourth last year... why not somewhere that we need multiple players?
I have to admit that I would love to take flyer on this RG3 .. Just might put some excitement back on our field !
This draft doesn't seem to have the one player I desperately want for this team " A monster Middle Linebacker " ( move DQ outside ) ,, If I am missing one please tell who/whom ? I want a Big Nasty ( enforcer type ) , speed would be an asset also . WR , RT , CB , Safety, yes Iknow.. But a big Nasty would make me so very happy.
Quote: Of those 4 guards, DeCastro is clearly the #1. It's not even that close.
anarc...and he may not be available when the Browns draft.
The point is, there are at least 3 other very good OGs that might be around when the Browns draft in round 2.
The Browns have so many needs and so few draft picks..it seems there are never enough. I wish we could afford to spend a first round pick on an OG, but with so many needs on defense, it becomes difficult to justify an OG with a first round pick.
Free agency is an alternative and might be utilized to fill our Oline needs if the Browns choose to use the 2 first round picks and our 2nd pick to fill needs other than the Oline.
While I would absolutely support the use of a high draft pick to fill our Oline needs, realistically, the Browns have other needs that might be more pressing.
Quote: I wish we could afford to spend a first round pick on an OG, but with so many needs on defense, it becomes difficult to justify an OG with a first round pick.
We have one of the fathers of the west coast offense as our Team President. We have a GM that has been looking for WCO players for a decade now. We are committed to a head coach / play caller steeped in the WCO.
I don't care if we spend every pick in 2011 on offense.
Just fix it!
I'm tired of this crap!
Trade 3 first rounders and get Luck (Trade 4! I don't care! Get it done!) Get the best free agent WR Shore up the OL with young talent. Get a top FA if need be.
I'm done watching unwatchable football! FIX THIS THING!!!!!
I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!!!
Quote: anarc...and he may not be available when the Browns draft.
The point is, there are at least 3 other very good OGs that might be around when the Browns draft in round 2.
Maybe, but DeCastro is the best of the group without question. He might even be there for the Browns second selection, depending on how the Falcons finish the season. They finish against Jax, NO and TB.
Quote: The Browns have so many needs and so few draft picks..it seems there are never enough. I wish we could afford to spend a first round pick on an OG, but with so many needs on defense, it becomes difficult to justify an OG with a first round pick.
Why? SF did so two years ago (Mike Iupati) with the 17th overall pick and with the 11th overall pick, they chose their LT (Anthony Davis). They're now currently sitting with the #2 seed in the NFC and have won their division, even if it is a weak one.
Quote: Free agency is an alternative and might be utilized to fill our Oline needs if the Browns choose to use the 2 first round picks and our 2nd pick to fill needs other than the Oline.
Maybe, but do you really expect top-tier free agents to come to the Browns, no matter what the position?
Quote: While I would absolutely support the use of a high draft pick to fill our Oline needs, realistically, the Browns have other needs that might be more pressing.
This is true and I think a RT could be gotten in the third round. I'd really like to get a playmaker in the first round, but they'd have to fit the system. Would Trent Richardson be worth it? I'm not so sure. Are the WRs worth it. I'm beginning to wonder. I don't think I'd be upset with Blackmon on pure athleticism alone but I'm beginning to question whether it would be the best choice.
I'm leaning towards trading down a few spots and accumulating picks, this year and next year. Not that we couldn't use higher picks, but because picks in the first three rounds should absolutely be starting quality and if we could get another first rounder and second rounder next year (no matter where it is) would be good for the team.
1. Cleveland Browns - Biggest Need: QB The Browns are still building their offense and will most likely focus on offensive skill players during the draft. While the Browns may not have all the weapons to be running a consistently dangerous offense, remarks from GM Mike Holmgren have made it seem as though he doesn't think the long term quarterback is on the roster. Usually, that is an indication that said team will be in play for the top talent at the position and the Browns have a lot of ammo to be in play for the top QB talent in 2012. If their current losing streak extends to the end of the season, they may not need to give up too much to get what they are looking for. 2012 Draft Pick - Matt Barkley, QB USC While they could put together the ammo to move all the way to #1, they could just move ahead of the Redskins and have their pick of QB outside of Luck. Barkley played in a west coast style system at USC and would fit into what Holmgren wants at QB. People will question his height, but he played behind a NFL OL in college and showed the smarts and arm to play at a high level.
1. Cleveland Browns - Biggest Need: QB The Browns are still building their offense and will most likely focus on offensive skill players during the draft. While the Browns may not have all the weapons to be running a consistently dangerous offense, remarks from GM Mike Holmgren have made it seem as though he doesn't think the long term quarterback is on the roster. Usually, that is an indication that said team will be in play for the top talent at the position and the Browns have a lot of ammo to be in play for the top QB talent in 2012. If their current losing streak extends to the end of the season, they may not need to give up too much to get what they are looking for. 2012 Draft Pick - Matt Barkley, QB USC While they could put together the ammo to move all the way to #1, they could just move ahead of the Redskins and have their pick of QB outside of Luck. Barkley played in a west coast style system at USC and would fit into what Holmgren wants at QB. People will question his height, but he played behind a NFL OL in college and showed the smarts and arm to play at a high level.
What comments did Holmgren make that makes this writer think that the QB isn't on the roster?
Well, I think there's a good offensive 4 deep anyway:
Luck Barkley Kalil Blackmon
I'd be pretty happy with any of the four with our first pick. And yes, if the other three were gone, you take Kalil in a heartbeat and put together the best bookends since the greatest show on turf.
I know a lot of people arent as high on Jonathon Martin as I am but I think he is the best tackle in this class. The kid isn't as developed in run blocking, as they run a lot of zone blocking, but he has fantastic feet and he never gets beats. Heck, he doesn't even come close to getting beat.
Right now I would say Rams, Panthers, Chiefs, Cards, Bills, vikings and Redskins are all in play for a left tackle. Then you have teams like the Browns and Jags in desperate need of a RT.
1. Cleveland Browns - Biggest Need: QB The Browns are still building their offense and will most likely focus on offensive skill players during the draft. While the Browns may not have all the weapons to be running a consistently dangerous offense, remarks from GM Mike Holmgren have made it seem as though he doesn't think the long term quarterback is on the roster. Usually, that is an indication that said team will be in play for the top talent at the position and the Browns have a lot of ammo to be in play for the top QB talent in 2012. If their current losing streak extends to the end of the season, they may not need to give up too much to get what they are looking for. 2012 Draft Pick - Matt Barkley, QB USC While they could put together the ammo to move all the way to #1, they could just move ahead of the Redskins and have their pick of QB outside of Luck. Barkley played in a west coast style system at USC and would fit into what Holmgren wants at QB. People will question his height, but he played behind a NFL OL in college and showed the smarts and arm to play at a high level.
One opinion among many. I could point to a site that backs my view.
Truth is, my view is my own and I'm not going to point to someone else's to validate it.
Quote: I know a lot of people arent as high on Jonathon Martin as I am but I think he is the best tackle in this class.
I think so too but I don't think I take him. We have other urgent needs and I think a competent RT can get got in round 3 or even round 4, if necessary. Some have expressed moving Pinkston to RT and he was taken in the 5th round last year.
Quote: The kid isn't as developed in run blocking, as they run a lot of zone blocking, but he has fantastic feet and he never gets beats. Heck, he doesn't even come close to getting beat.
He'd do a fine job at run blocking. If we were looking for our LT, I'd definitely consider taking him, but I don't think we need it.
Quote: Right now I would say Rams, Panthers, Chiefs, Cards, Bills, vikings and Redskins are all in play for a left tackle. Then you have teams like the Browns and Jags in desperate need of a RT.
I think we could look at Levy Adcock or Nate Potter in the 3rd or 4th round to secure the right side. We're in more vital need of a RG though. If we can't get DeCastro with reasonable expectations in the early to mid-teens (yeah, I'd trade back from the Top 5 or Top 10) if we could get him from anywhere from 13 to 16.
Quote: It is going to be a very interesting draft.
Quote: I know a lot of people arent as high on Jonathon Martin as I am but I think he is the best tackle in this class. The kid isn't as developed in run blocking, as they run a lot of zone blocking, but he has fantastic feet and he never gets beats. Heck, he doesn't even come close to getting beat.
Right now I would say Rams, Panthers, Chiefs, Cards, Bills, vikings and Redskins are all in play for a left tackle. Then you have teams like the Browns and Jags in desperate need of a RT.
It is going to be a very interesting draft.
He was on my watch list for today - went through a bunch of the youtube clips on Kalil last night (only way I have time to watch these guys, and also the youtube scouting videos are getting pretty good) and was pretty impressed. I'd have him rated below Thomas and Ferguson, but above any other LT i've seen in the past 5 years.
I dont even have guard listed as a team need. I like Lauvao and Pinkston and believe they have shown constant improvement. Since week 6, the only game in which the OL hasn't been pretty good was the Texans.
I would still look to upgrade RT as Pashos just can't stay healthy. Adcock in the 3rd sounds good. Big kid from Miss St. in the 4th or 5th wouldnt be a bad investment either.
I originally posted that I wanted Adcock in the 3rd for us as well....unfortunately he's creeping up most boards to the point I think he goes in the 2nd round at this point.
I'd much rather still take Minnifield with our high 2nd than reach a bit to take Adcock there. We could still go grab Andrew Datko from Florida St possibly with our 3rd.
Anybody thought that if we dont take Trent Richardson.. that the Bengals will get him..
I know you don't draft based on other teams.. but man.. I would hate it just as much as I hate having to see my boy AJ Green wearing orange and BLACK..
Its looking like Janoris Jenkins, Minnifield and Gilmore could be around when we pick in the 2nd. I think 2nd round corner is looking promising for the Browns.
1a. Everyone talking about trading up, Browns trade down with Arizona for their 2nd and 4th. At 14 Browns select guess who Trent Richardson, he is still there as team needs just dont involve RB besides the Browns.
1b. I would say Jones or Tannehill one should be there and that is where we get our QB.
2. Grab a corner whichever is rated highest of those guys that are left. 2b OLB Ronnel Lewis OKlahoma love this kid. Fast hits hard and just an impact player.
3. OT Levy Adcock thats right boom we got our tackle
4a. Tommy Streeter WR Miami big fast pretty good hands, late bloomer 4b. Joe Adams WR Arkansas small fast, wes welker type with big run after catch potential 4 c. Alex Okafor DE texas one of my big sleepers of this draft. This kid has so much raw talent. Just got to bring it out
5. LB DAnny Trevathon Kentucky Undersized but fast and never misses a tackle also great in coverage. Steal if he drops to here.
6a James Carmon OT Miss st. 6-7 and somewhere between 330 and 370 raw prospect moved from DT to OT but has performed admirably. Excellent prospect to groom as your backup at tackle for either side.
6 b. Nicolas Jean-Baptiste DT Baylor at 6-2 and 335 the Browns go back to Baylor for another big tackle that can give Rubin and Taylor a breather when needed.
Gabbert may be bad enough to make Jaguars draft another QB
Posted by Michael David Smith on December 16, 2011, 1:47 PM EST
Getty Images Blaine Gabbert is playing so badly right now that the Jaguars may consider something practically unheard of in the NFL: Taking Top 10 quarterbacks in back-to-back drafts.
Gabbert’s horrible game in Thursday night’s loss to the Falcons has continued a horrible rookie season for the quarterback the Jaguars chose with the 10th overall pick in this year’s NFL draft. Gabbert is last in the league with a passer rating of 65.6, and he looks lost out there. It’s tough to see why the Jaguars’ next coach, whoever he is, would want Gabbert as his starting quarterback.
So would the Jaguars, who will likely draft somewhere between the fourth and 10th overall picks, take a quarterback? It’s impossible to say right now, as we have no idea who the new coach will be or what kind of offense he’ll run. We also don’t know where new owner Shahid Khan stands on the matter, and whether he’ll take a hands-on or hands-off approach to the draft. But if Baylor’s Robert Griffin III or USC’s Matt Barkley is available to the Jaguars, they’d have to think long and hard about drafting one of them in the Top 10.
That almost never happens. The Cowboys used their first-round picks in 1989 and 1990 on quarterbacks Troy Aikman and Steve Walsh, but the 1990 pick was used in the supplemental draft. (The Cowboys traded Walsh to the Saints in 1990.) The last time a team used consecutive first-round picks in the regular draft on quarterbacks was in 1982-83, when the Baltimore Colts drafted Art Schlichter and John Elway. But that was a highly unusual circumstance in which neither one of those quarterbacks played for the team in 1983: Schlichter was suspended for the entire 1983 season, and the Colts traded Elway to the Broncos before he ever played a down for Baltimore.
Before the Colts, you have to go all the way back to the early 1960s Los Angeles Rams to find a team that used first-round draft picks on quarterbacks in back-to-back years. The Rams actually drafted quarterbacks in the first round three years in a row: Roman Gabriel in 1962, Terry Baker in 1963 and Bill Munson in 1964. But Baker was a college quarterback who played halfback in the NFL, so that’s not quite the same thing, either. Prior to those Rams, the last team to draft quarterbacks in back-to-back first rounds was the 49ers, who took Earl Morrall in 1956 and John Brodie in 1957. The 49ers traded Morrall to the Steelers before the 1957 season.
What does this history lesson tell us? NFL teams only take quarterbacks in back-to-back first rounds under the most extraordinary of circumstances. If Jaguars G.M. Gene Smith takes a quarterback in the first round a year after he took Gabbert 10th overall, he’ll be doing something NFL general managers just don’t do. But Gabbert might be bad enough to make the Jaguars do it.
oh please JAX. take Tannehill in your spot. please.
that would just be so funny to have the 2 QBs I disparaged the most in the season before their draft on one team. especially if Tannehill plays like Gabbert has this year (Tanny would not have the spread-offense excuse to fall back on though).
Since you seem to be good at digging up old threads and posts....can you get me to the threads where EO pimped Everette Brown and laughed at me for mocking Connor Barwin with the Browns' 1st round pick? Thanks
Gabbert should have NEVER seen the field this season...even his biggest pimps knew and said that...now, I AM disappointed of his play regardless about his situation but it sure didn't help him
Just remember that folks laughed at me too after Barwin's rookie year (which was still pretty good from the bench) and now are nowhere to be found...in 2009 I traded down with the Jets like Mangini and mocked Barwin and then traded up to draft WR Nicks...who would trade Mack and Robo for even 1 of those today? Nobody
That said, I'm not as confident about Gabbert as I was 1 year from now but that's the risk you have and have to take with QBs as long as you don't have one....that's where lots of real life GM careers end
BTW, I think I was pretty prophetic regarding McCoy looking closer to this old thread:
That's why I didn't want McCoy...because now his "believers" come out and say "let's give him more time, we need to see more"....let's not make the same mistake we did with BQ, Frye etc here...we passed on Roethli because of freaking Garcia, we missed on Flacco because we wasted on BQ, we then passed on Sanchez/Freeman because of BQ....let's not do this mistake again please....
Trust me, he's who this franchise needs...give the Hobbit and Wallace the #1 and #2 for 2011, let Gabbert learn (needs a whole season for propper mechanics)....and then let him take over when everyone has higher expectations and has seen enough of McCoy's limitations to pull us over an AVG team...that'd be my plan
What games have you been watching? He had a great drive against the Jets who played still him stupidly? They thought up by 7p the rook will force a mistake sooner or later and played VERY soft, so they played up to his strength, which is dink and dunk...I told everyone in the midst of the McCoy lovefest that the book will be out soon....Hillis wasn't magically slowed down, he was stopped by scheme....they didn't care about any thing beyond 15yds the LOS because they KNEW the ball would be in the air forever to recover the 1on1 CB or even make up the deepest S....he struggles with RZone throws too...I haven't seen a lot of solid RZ throws of him in 8 games....sure he scrambles on in here and there, he pitches a TD too...but long term that's not gonna cut it
His deficiencies were and will be exposed again in cold, windy weather....we are toast as soon as we're 2 scores down....the Jets game it was 1 score and he had enough time, that was a perfect scenario and HE DID WELL TOO, I'm not taking away anything....but it WAS a perfect sceanrio with a team that still hadn't figured him out (and let's be honest: their 2nd H gameplan worked perfectly before, so they thought: why change it? Let's not forget that McCoy was part of the reason why we were down by 7p anyway since we had no Offense before that last drive)
I understand why many like him and I DO LIKE HIM TOO...but nobody can convince me that he'll become a franchise QB....not even before those last 2 games and sure as heck not after those 2....why not? McCoy isn't the guy that folds when faced with a 1st round QB pick, it might be the kicker to make him even better, who knows?
If Holmgren thinks that Gabbert is a franchise QB...and he will LOVE him (Heckert too, if he liked Kolb...Gabbert is 10x the prospect)....then he should draft him
We won'r win the SB in 2011 and are a PO longshot with a new coaching staff etc....the reluctance of drafting a QB in the top is puzling to me....should I remind you that WE HAVEN'T HAD A LEGITIMATE FRANCHISE QB FOR DECADES NOW
Let's not waste another season or 2 "to find out" again on middling QB prospects...please?
Quote: I dont even have guard listed as a team need. I like Lauvao and Pinkston and believe they have shown constant improvement. Since week 6, the only game in which the OL hasn't been pretty good was the Texans.
I can understand your view (except as it regards Lauvao). If Steinbach comes back healthy, moving Pinkston to the RG spot and drafting a competent RT will only improve things. However, Lauvao hasn't been very good at all in my estimation and I wouldn't even keep him on the team for depth. That's why I would love DeCastro at RG and keeping Pinkston for depth. Teach him to play anywhere on the line and we might be onto something. If you want to keep Lauvao as depth also, that might be okay, but only as depth behind Pinkston even.
Quote: I would still look to upgrade RT as Pashos just can't stay healthy. Adcock in the 3rd sounds good. Big kid from Miss St. in the 4th or 5th wouldnt be a bad investment either.
I really like Adcock, which is why mentioned him. And Nate Potter is smart and a very good tackle in both pass protection and run blocking.
Quote: I originally posted that I wanted Adcock in the 3rd for us as well....unfortunately he's creeping up most boards to the point I think he goes in the 2nd round at this point.
I'd much rather still take Minnifield with our high 2nd than reach a bit to take Adcock there. We could still go grab Andrew Datko from Florida St possibly with our 3rd.
I too would prefer to take Minnifield in the 2nd round.
We trade DOWN when we need MORE top picks instead of less. Then we waste our 1st round pick on a RB?? I'm not saying Trent doesn't deserve a top pick...I'm saying I think it's stupid to ever draft a RB that early. The NFL isn't a RB league anymore. You get a stud QB with precise WR...then make sure you have a good OLine to protect/create holes...and you can plug just about anyone in at RB and be successful. Even if we let Hillis walk I don't want to see us take a RB before the 4th round at the EARLIEST. We have Jackson coming back. He was going to be a bigger part of our new offense than people thought and could very well be our starter next year IMO. Then we get Ogbonnaya...who has been our best RB in the WCO this whole year. Plus we can have a (hopefully) healthier Hardesty. If you don't want to bank on Hardesty then grab a RB in rounds 5/6/7/UDFA. Plenty of guys will be available there who will step in and perform just fine without wasting a top pick.
Then you have us taking a QB with our late 1st. I'm all for upgrading QB...but Jones or Tannehill? Just ugh. I want Luck. I'll settle for Barkley. If it isn't one of those 2, I'm not interested. Might as well roll with McCoy if all you're going to do is spend a pick getting someone else who will perform just as bad. I'd ACTUALLY prefer going with Seneca but that's a whole different thread.
I'm on board with you with a CB with our 2nd round pick. Love that idea.
Again, I'd love Adcock in the 3rd but I am starting to have serious doubts he'll be there. I'm hearing early 2nd to even possibly late 1st round for him now. Just very slim he falls all the way to the 3rd at this point....better find a different option there, thus why I mentioned Andrew Datko.
Then...our biggest weakness on this whole team (short of QB) is WR...and you don't have us taking one until the FOURTH round. We have plenty of depth/rotation guys. What we lack is a true #1 to push all the other guys down to their more natural spots. You don't find #1 WR's in the 4th round or later. Yes there are a handful of rare exceptions but you don't COUNT on that. We have to address WR much much earlier than that IMO...in fact the only way I DON'T go WR with one of our 1st round picks is if we trade them both to go up and get Luck.
cmon man, you need to get a thicker skin here. we all get stuff right, we all get stuff wrong. we were discussing at length Gabbert and what people thought of him at draft-time last year, so I looked it up and posted.
no need for you to validate yourself with examples of guys you got right. it's okay.
jk - quick poll question: Of the following players which would you prefer we select with the Atlanta pick? Let's assume for argument sake we take a qb with our 1st pick to eliminate the need for well if we take Blackmon I wouldn't take another wr yada yada yada. Also please do not pick a player not listed. I specifically left the olinemen off the list because I am tired of that argument and I am seeking opinion on these particular players. Also assume for this question that we re-sign D'Quell but not Hillis.
Lamar Miller Rb Miami Mohamed Sanu Wr Rutgers Jeff Fuller Wr Texas A&M Kendall Wright Wr Baylor Jerel Worthy DT MSU Marcus Fortson DT Miami Melvin Ingram DE South Carolina Travis Lewis OLB Oklahoma Bruce Irvin OB West Virginia Chase Minniefield CB Virgina
I got a little carried away with the list. Deviated from what I inteded by adding some 2nd rd options and players at position of need.
Try this list:
Lamar Miller Rb Miami Kendall Wright WR Baylor Melvin Ingram DE South Carolina Dont'e Hightower LB Alabama Chase Minniefield CB Virginia
I like Wright but we can get a pretty good Wr in the 2nd. Or a little speedster in the 4th or 5th. Is Can Wright be a #1?
I really like Miller. Today's game shows the importance of an effective running game. If we do/don't sign Hillis will really influence his value to us.
Our dline is Sheard, Rubin, Taylor and who? We need some pass rush from the DE opposite Sheard.
Minniefield would be last on that list for me. While we can use a upgrade at CB it is by far not our biggest area of need. I would prefer any of those other guys to Chase.
I like Miller, but I'm too anti-RB to take him in the first. I think Wright can be a No. 1. Kind of like a better Mike Wallace or Jeremy Maclin type.
I really don't like Hightower, especially in a 4-3 defense, and I like, but don't love Ingram. The Browns definitely need a DE, but I don't think he is the stud off the weak side they need.
I think I am trying to decide between Miller and Wright with the Atlanta pick and hoping Ingram is there with our 2nd rounder. Obviously If we take Richardson or Blackmon then that essentially eliminates one of these guys.
As for DE, do you see anybody else out there? I'm not buying into Coples with our 1st pick and doubt he is there with the Atlanta pick. Curry from Marshall with the 2nd round pick?I think that is high for him but he will be gone before the 3rd. Plus round 3 is where I am eying a RT. I think we can get some good value and talent taking a RT in round 3.
That really was a "perfect" sunday for us with us losing a useless coin toss game and MIA, CAR, WAS, KC, PHI, SEA and ARI winning...we "should" pick from 4 to 6 now, which means we can go after ANY QB we like....that's the good news today
at DE I like Curry, Ingram or Branch...not sure about the JRs yet (Mercilus and Perry)...
late round guys from big schools I like are Bequette, Frank Alexander or Binns but they aren't 1st day starter material and are more rotational prospects with fringe starter upside
And I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility Minnesota takes those last two games. Washington has Good Rex/Bad Rex and the Bears have been an utter joke without Cutler. Karma's a you know what to the folks there questioning his toughness. I know the guys kind of an ass, but he's elite and got hurt making a tackle 60 yards downfield on an INT.
Indy beating Jax and maybe losing out on number one overall would make for a much more feasible trade-up if we end up sitting at number four.
My opinion (subject to change) is that there is a top 4-5 in this draft: Luck, Barkley, Blackmon, Kalil, Claiborne. I'm still not sold on QB being the problem, but in general I'd be happy with any of those 5.
So we have a Baltimore team that is going to be major ticked off after getting their clocks cleaned and then the Steelers who will be playing for the division...
We need Jax to beat the Colts and it would be nice if the Bucs beat Carolina.... The Vikings could win both and become a 4 win team, not sure where that would put them in relation to us though...
I assume they would take a 3 first rounders offer and I'm fine with that.
What if they think that they cannot pass on Andrew Luck?
Does Atlanta's pick get it done?
If so I'm in on that!
I feel like the Rams would be more likely to take Luck than the Colts even. I think they would trade Bradford for a first round pick (I think they could still get a late first rounder).
The best part of the deal is, they would be paying Luck about 30 million less than they are paying Bradford - due to the new rookie contracts.
If Bradford became available for a trade I have a feeling we would probably be one of the first teams to inquire. Shurmer would probably be willing to send McCoy and Atlanta's first rounder for him. But only if the Rams got Luck. To trade for Luck would probably cost us both firsts this year and next year and probably another 2nd or 3rd (Luck is going to break the bank if traded).
Todays loss definately puts us in play for Barkley if we so choose.
Quote: That really was a "perfect" sunday for us with us losing a useless coin toss game and MIA, CAR, WAS, KC, PHI, SEA and ARI winning...we "should" pick from 4 to 6 now, which means we can go after ANY QB we like....that's the good news today
Perfect in every conceivable way...Except Atlanta beatin' Jax...Which is OK...
Even Balt losing to SD helps...Now both Balt and Pitt need to play all out the last 2 weeks...Regardless of what Pitt does tonight...Pitt's fighting for the Division and must finish 1 game ahead since Balt owns the tie-breaker...
The ONLY way Pitt rests anyone when we play them is if they have a 2 game lead...And the only way that happens is if they win tonight and next week at home to the Rams...And we beat Balt...NEVER gonna happen...
This Indy/Rams/Minny thing just got real interesting...
And someone asked about the SOS figuring...It's based on opponents records TO DATE...It changes weekly due to the teams you've played already add either a win or loss...
Quote: Get me Barkley or RG3 with our highest pick then with Atlanta's pick get us the best WR still on the board. Preferably with some serious wheels.
OR, the Browns trade down a bit, accumulate more draft picks and continue to fill more of the many holes the team has on defense and offense.
...just pointing out another possible draft strategy that makes sense.
Quote: Get me Barkley or RG3 with our highest pick then with Atlanta's pick get us the best WR still on the board. Preferably with some serious wheels.
Yeah, RG3 and a fast WR would be a nice 1-2 star to turning this offense around. I am a little leery of USC QBs ... which makes me leery of Barkley. Matt Cassel, Matt Leinart, Mark Sanchez, and even Carson palmer are not a ringing endorsement for the professional qualifications of USC QBs.
The colt/jag game is very interesting. the colts have been tanking the entire season almost intentionally. Do the rams jump them for the number one?? I can't find an up to date list of strength of schedules anywhere???? Would have to think the rams lose out the rest of the way. I don't see the vikes winning their last two as people are hoping, they could snag one game but Ponder is hurt and really lost at this point.
not sure that the Rams could conceivably trade Bradford without killing their cap. as you mentioned, Bradford is also due more money and is coming off a terrible year where he was also injured for a bunch of it.
the Rams might take a trade down where they can still get Kalil or Blackmon and move on.
I didnt think Leinart would even make in the NFL as a backup. No idea what anyone saw in Sanchez. Cassell was nothing, still aint much. Palmer was terrific until he injured his leg, never been the same.
I like Barkley. Love his accuracy, quick release, pocket presence, fantastic in the short to intermediate routes. The one area that was questioned coming into this season was his deep ball. All he did was come back this year and go from a horrible deep ball to drew Brees efficiency and accuracy on the deep ball. He doesnt have the great arm but he has a pretty good arm.
Miami has been wanting a star at QB, someone to put bodies in the seats. I would say RG3 will be their target. Kid has charisma along with a pretty good arm, and freakish athleticism. Fun to watch. I just think they are the team with the most pieces to the puzzle already in place and will be willing to give up more to get the QB they want.
They went out and got Brandon Marshall and Reggie bush. they want stars down there and RG3 just has the star power.
name another school that has had that many QBs starting in the NFL at one time.
I understand that you are trying to pull out how much is the USC system and how much is the QB, but USC has had a pretty good line of QBs compared to most. And, Barkely has been a starter since he got there (unlike Sanchez's 1 year or Cassel being a backup the whole time). He's much closer to Leinart or Palmer for their time there. And, there are still plenty of people in AZ who feel that Matt only failed because he didn't understand how to work yet (too much partying).
Quote: RPG and a speeeeeeeeeeedy WR. in the first and then start looking at OL and DL line prospects in two and three ..
A speedy wide receiver that may be there at ATL's pick could quite possibly be RG3's teammate Kendall Wright who is shooting up the draft boards. Alshon Jeffery and Michael Floyd's stock has dropped due to performance (AJ) and character concerns (MF), but I fully expect them to regain their stock at the combine. However, it is not out of the realm of possibility that Jeffery, Floyd, and Wright are siting there for us with the Falcon's pick.
In the 2nd round we can probably grab a pretty good RT prospect such as Levy Adcock or go with a RB prospect (if Hillis leaves) like Lamar Miller. Nick Perry and Vinny Curry may also be picks in the 2nd.
3rd round, if Ryan Broyles is still there because his injury made him drop, I am running to hand in my pick.
If this scenario came true, I am much more confident in an offense featuring RG3, Wright and Little being our #1 and #2, and Broyles being the slot guy with exceptional hands and route running ability.
Good think we moved ahead of Miami in draft order then.
With so many of the teams ahead of us recently having invested 1st round picks in QBs, it's hard to say who does what.
We have who ..... Indy, St Louis, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, and us ..... right? (and the 4-10 teams are not yet sorted out all the way)
Indy definitely goes Luck. I don't see any other scenario unless someone does a Ricky Williams Plus type deal. (like a whole draft plus a couple of extra #1s)
Lock Luck in at #1 ..... and write it down in solid black ink. St Louis, Minnesota, Tampa and Jacksonville have all invested 1st round picks in QBs in the past 3 years.
Bradford has been hurt a lot. The Rams have to decide if they expect him to be a better QB with better talent around him. This year has been a train wreck for the Rams, with almost their entire receiving corp on IR, and now starting a guy who has been with the team for 10 days or so at QB because they have gotten everyone else beaten into submission. I think that they go either WR or OL.
Minnesota has Christian Ponder, and he has shown some good things, and struggled with others. They are scoring points, so I would think that look defense.
Tampa Bay has Freeman. he has struggled this year. However, just looking at his numbers, they don't look awful. (and I haven't seen him play this year) he is completing over 60% of his passes, is over 3000 yards, and is over 6.5 yards/pass attempt. He is not throwing TDs though, and is throwing INTs. It's like he has flipped those from his 1st 2 years. I would guess that Tampa stays the course with him, and tries to work out his problems.
Then we get to Jacksonville. Wow, this is an awful team. They could go anywhere on offense except RB and make a huge upgrade. 4th from the bottom of the league in pass attempts, yet 7th in sacks allowed. They have thrown for 1900 yards, and given back 300 in sacks. Gabbert really looks awful ..... and the Jags have surrounded him with awful. Sounds like a match made in hell to me. This could be a QB destination. They need someone to provide something in the passing game. They might go WR too. Or OL. I wouldn't write off RB either. They might decide to follow the Broncos' lead and run the crap out of the ball.
Anyway ..... right around here we get to the Browns. QB? Which one? Is there one left? Are there 2 left?
I would go RG3 if we have that option. Not prototypical size, but a nice NFL arm, plus accuracy, super intelligent, mobile, fast, solid mechanically from what I have seen. and he is a dynamic player used to playing under pressure. Sometimes you just have to roll the dice and take the big chance. This is where I would make that play.
Not every draft pick is a hit, not every time that they decide to go get a superstar do they become a superstar.
Just take a look at the 2010 draft, where they got TJ Ward and Joe Haden, but they also took Larry Asante in the 5th. He doesn't stick around and then they get Skrine in the 5th of 2011.
And Before they even drafted Haden and Ward, they had already signed Sheldon Brown in free agency.
That didn't fix the secondary, they also signed free agents at the start of the season this year, in Usama Young and Dimirti Patterson.
That can't entirely explain it, because they also got improvement from Mike Adams alread with the team.
So Just even the pass defense, if you want to say they are going to fix the pass defense, well they had to have about 4 things work out together.
They also hit with Dockery, too, and Eric Hagg too who haven't been liabilities when they get playing time.
Back to the point, Not every draft pick is a hit, even the BEST GM's only hit on about 1 half of their picks, especially after the first round. The thing is you have to see where the investment is, every investment in one part of the team leaves the opportunity cost of not investing somewhere else.
But Larry Asante was a miss You Have, in 2011 they took Jordan Cameron, who really hasn't seen the field and last night he played Terrible. I don't want to see anymore of this guy. Seriously Martin Rucker didn't get the chance and He had to have more potential at TE.
Everybody on this board was harping abour picking Eric Berry, safety, because they wanted the next Troy Palamulu or Ed Reed, well He's on injured reserve he missed the whole 2011 season almost.
It may seem since the Browns have a losing record every year that they have the 1st overall pick every year, but they don't and some will hate things like the trade down and then trade up and pick of Phil Taylor, wishing they could have a stud like AJ Green.
Well the Browns didn't pass on AJ Green, he was already off the board when the Bengals took him ahead of their pick and they passed on Julio Jones, who may be a stud also, maybe not.
The point is you can't just spend one pick on one player and think, that positon is solved, (look at rb going back to 2005)
Another thing some think that if you don't spend the 1st rd pick on a positon that your going to neglect it for the entire year.
After all that. If they want to spend 7 picks on offensive skilled positions this year, I'd be happy, just wait a year and come back to the defense next year.
Typing that last line makes me realize something. It's not about draft picks, its about Coaching, Coaches make the teams win,.
Quote: Get me Barkley or RG3 with our highest pick then with Atlanta's pick get us the best WR still on the board. Preferably with some serious wheels.
OR, the Browns trade down a bit, accumulate more draft picks and continue to fill more of the many holes the team has on defense and offense.
...just pointing out another possible draft strategy that makes sense.
If Blackmon is gone when we pick, I would LOVE to see us trade down. Get us a another 1st rounder for next year, too? Heck yeah!
I'd like to see us drop back (almost every year) to gain extra picks. I don't think I'd be looking to drop from #6 to #26 or whatever we did last year though. I'd drop from #4 to #8 or so... and then look to trade back again, from say #8 to #13 or so. Picking up second rounders this year and more in the process. There would have to be a #1 next year or so in there too!
Sooner or later we have to stop trading back and find some guys with difference-maker ability. Whether it be QB or not (I'm in the "not" group), we need big play guys at WR, DE, LB, FS, and maybe RB and TE. We also need OL help. Some of those could come in FA, but ideally you'd like it to come more from the draft.
Quote: Sooner or later we have to stop trading back and find some guys with difference-maker ability. Whether it be QB or not (I'm in the "not" group), we need big play guys at WR, DE, LB, FS, and maybe RB and TE. We also need OL help. Some of those could come in FA, but ideally you'd like it to come more from the draft.
I agree. I think the utopia would be trading back to get those extra picks, but still being able to draft impact players. Drop back into the early teens and still be able to pick up a stud WR, DB, S, etc.
Quote: Sooner or later we have to stop trading back and find some guys with difference-maker ability. Whether it be QB or not (I'm in the "not" group), we need big play guys at WR, DE, LB, FS, and maybe RB and TE. We also need OL help. Some of those could come in FA, but ideally you'd like it to come more from the draft.
The more "average" first rounders you have out there, the more each and every one of them will become difference makers because they aren't wasting efforts trying to cover up the deficiencies of those around them... they all just handle their own job.
Having Uber-Elite talent surrounded by mediocre and below talent will negate that Uber-Eliteness. In short... I'd rather have 6 really solid, darn good players out there than just 1 or two super-great players.
So, I say keep trading down and stockpiling future 1st rounders every single year until we reach the point where they feel like a luxury and not a necessity... by that point, we should be perrenially contending and can then spend any extra 1sts we've have to move up and take that elite level talent that puts everything over the top.
Jim Brown and Paul Warfield aren't near what they were without the ton of talent surrounding them.... like the slew of Hall of Fame linemen they had with them that dominated the trenches. I want solid talent across the board. I want holes filled so that our problems aren't a perennial laundry list that is easier to list what we don't need to fix... and THEN I want to add Jim Brown and Paul Warfield's to that.... but I want things solidified FIRST.
You can get that done a helluva lot faster if you have two 1st's every single year.
Quote: Those linemen would not be in the Hall of Fame without Jim Brown running behind them.
looks like they did just fine with Leroy Kelly too
As much as I like and respect Leroy Kelly, there is zero comparison between him and Jim Brown.
Brown finished up his final 3 years (63-65) with rushing totals of 1863, 1446, and 1544 yards, and a total of 36 rushing TDs. He had 1800-2100 total yards from scrimmage in those years. (and another 9 TDs)
Kelly never had a year higher than 1259 yards. He never exceeded 1536 in total yards from scrimmage.
There is no comparison. Kelly was a great player. Brown was in his own category.
Colts are reportedly likely to cut Peyton Manning and draft Luck.
Reggie Wayne, Jaccob Tamme, Garcon are Free agents.
How about we sign Peyton Manning, pick up a couple of those receiving options. We have a lot of cap space money and have locked up our key players minus Hillis and Dawson. Build the O skills through FA and use the draft to finish off the Defense and get our RT.
Granted. However, as great as Leroy Kelly was, he wasn't Jim Brown. Frankly, he wasn't even really close.
If I have a chance to get a Jim Brown, I take it. He more than takes the plays of 2-3 "average" 1st round talents, and he makes my team better no matter who I have at other positions. There is no guarantee, even on 1st round picks. I go for the very best player I can get, unless someone just knocks me out with an offer. (and this year it would take a total of 3 first rounders for me to move down)
Quote: Colts are reportedly likely to cut Peyton Manning and draft Luck.
Reggie Wayne, Jaccob Tamme, Garcon are Free agents.
How about we sign Peyton Manning, pick up a couple of those receiving options. We have a lot of cap space money and have locked up our key players minus Hillis and Dawson. Build the O skills through FA and use the draft to finish off the Defense and get our RT.
Sure would be interesting lol
lol, I'll believe it when I see it.
"reportedly likely"... lol, what a ridiculously insane phrase to put stock into when dealing with something that involves nothing but deception and speculation for months and months leading up to the event.
Colts get Manning back 100% looks like the old Peyton.
First loss they get, the media storms in with their questions (yeah, it's not just Cleveland media, folks)
On top of that, are they going to pay Peyton, who gets top dollar, as well as Andrew who will be paid under the new CBA but still getting #1 overall $?
Really interested to see how that whole thing plays out.
Quote: Colts are reportedly likely to cut Peyton Manning and draft Luck
1. If this is "reported" right now it means they keep Manning and started to drive the price up for the Luck sweepstakes
2. We can't sign Manning. If brought in, he calls HIS OWN Offense and the backup QBs are as lost as the colts one you see and saw this year...sure I'd take the "Manning-O" for 2-3 years and have fun with it but long term it makes 0 sense
Drew Brees has cut off contract negotiations with the Saints because they weren't making any progress, we could get him for the same money we could get Manning and he is better suited to the system and he's younger...
Quote: Good think we moved ahead of Miami in draft order then.
We have who ..... Indy, St Louis, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, and us ..... right? (and the 4-10 teams are not yet sorted out all the way)
Indy definitely goes Luck. I don't see any other scenario unless someone does a Ricky Williams Plus type deal. (like a whole draft plus a couple of extra #1s)
Lock Luck in at #1 ..... and write it down in solid black ink. St Louis, Minnesota, Tampa and Jacksonville have all invested 1st round picks in QBs in the past 3 years.
Bradford has been hurt a lot. I think that they go either WR or OL.
Minnesota has Christian Ponder, and he has shown some good things, and struggled with others. They are scoring points, so I would think that look defense.
Tampa Bay has Freeman. he has struggled this year. I would guess that Tampa stays the course with him, and tries to work out his problems.
Then we get to Jacksonville. Wow, this is an awful team. They could go anywhere on offense except RB and make a huge upgrade. Gabbert really looks awful ..... and the Jags have surrounded him with awful. Sounds like a match made in hell to me. This could be a QB destination. They need someone to provide something in the passing game. They might go WR too. Or OL. I wouldn't write off RB either. Anyway ..... right around here we get to the Browns. QB? Which one? Is there one left? Are there 2 left?
good thing washington won, they have to take a QB don't they???
It sounds like it is a done deal with Indi number 1, even if they happen to win another game. The vikes actually have a better shot at getting the number one at 2-14 with strength of schedule then the rams. So Luck to the colts.
Vikes at number two -i would think Left Tackle
Tampa could go anywhere, but i doubt they give up on Freeman. I would guess defense, they can't stop anyone.
I think Jacksonville beats the colts in week 17. Indi tanks it to be certain of the number one pick.
Rams need widereceivers- Blackman is the no brainer.
That puts the browns up- maybe Washington is calling?? We have the choice of RG3 or Barkley.
I haven't watched a single snap of Baylor football. That said I'm having trouble finding highlight clips of RG3 the QB. I see a lot of clips that show him being a great athlete. He is a freak of nature. There is no doubt he is a great ball player but can he be a great NFL QB?
Can he really make all the throws? Can he do more than run with the football?
Again I'm not saying he can't. I haven't seen him play. I'm asking guys that have watched.
I assume they would take a 3 first rounders offer and I'm fine with that.
What if they think that they cannot pass on Andrew Luck?
Does Atlanta's pick get it done?
If so I'm in on that!
I feel like the Rams would be more likely to take Luck than the Colts even. I think they would trade Bradford for a first round pick (I think they could still get a late first rounder).
The best part of the deal is, they would be paying Luck about 30 million less than they are paying Bradford - due to the new rookie contracts.
I don't think that is even remotely possible just from a numbers standpoint.
The cap hit would be maybe $30 mil....they can't take that hit and still keep other players.
1. QB Andrew Luck Stanford 2. CB Morris Claiborne LSU 3. Qb Matt Barkley USC 4. OT Jonathon Martin Stanford 5. Ot Matt Kalil USC 6. RB Trent Richardson Bama 7. WR Justin Blackmon OKST 8. QB Ryan Tannehill Texas A&M 9. QB Landry Jones Okla. 10. DT Dontari Poe Memphis
11. OT Riley Reiff Iowa 12. CB Alfonzo Dennard Nebraska 13. MLB Luke Kuechly Boston college 14. WR Alshon Jeffery South Carolina 15. DE Whitney Mercilus Illinois 16. WR Kendal Wright Baylor 17. WR Michael Floyd Notre Dame 18. CB Janoris Jenkins North Alabama 19. CB DRe Kirkpatrick Bama 20. OG David Decastro Stanford
21, OT Mike Adams Ohio St. 22. DE Jared Crick Nebraska 23. DE Quinton Coples North Carolina 24. MLB Dont'a Hightower Bama 25. OLB Courtney Upshaw Bama 26. DT Devon Still Penn St. 27. Qb Robert Griffin III Baylor 28. Qb EJ Manuel FSU 29. RB Lamaar Miller Miami 30. DT Alameda Ta'amu Washington
Quote: Just curious, where do you watch tape and/or how do you get it?
torrents, (warning: legality questionable), but pretty much every college game is available. I use VLC, and have the hot buttons set up to let me skip between plays, slow down action to as little as 10%, etc.
It's pretty useful for evaluating players who are in camera shot most of the time. I don't know for the life of me how anybody can evaluate a CB without the all-22 tape though.
I try to balance what I see and what I think they can be. Like last year, I didnt have Julio Jones in my top 30 because I thought he was Braylon edwards with injury concerns. So far he has fit the bill.
Zach Brown and Vontaze burfict are my big red flags this year and totally off my radar. They may end up being great but if I am GM they are not on my draft board.
When it comes to corner, you can grade their man skills easily but the zone stuff, you need the birds eye view. For man you see the use of hands to jam, and their strength. You see their backpedal and reaction to the receivers movement, is he turning the receiver in or out. And when the ball goes their way, you can grade their adjustment to the ball and their recovery speed as well as ball skills in how they make a play for the ball.
Quote: When it comes to corner, you can grade their man skills easily but the zone stuff, you need the birds eye view. For man you see the use of hands to jam, and their strength. You see their backpedal and reaction to the receivers movement, is he turning the receiver in or out. And when the ball goes their way, you can grade their adjustment to the ball and their recovery speed as well as ball skills in how they make a play for the ball.
Oh, I understand how you can get snippets, but there is a ton you aren't seeing there (that the pro scouts are)
Quote: Like last year, I didnt have Julio Jones in my top 30 because I thought he was Braylon edwards with injury concerns. So far he has fit the bill.
I don't really see it that way.
His drop percentage rate is right around where he was in college, which isn't a horrible number and would put him somewhere in the Top 20 of the NFL, especially considering the bulk of his work comes on deep throws.
Does he drop the ball? Yes, but he far surpasses Braylon in terms of numbers and the eye test in that regard.
I've watched him a lot this year ... I like him, but I don't think he would've been a good fit for us. We're not a strong enough offense to deal with the drops he will have.
With the new collective bargaining agreement in place that greatly reduces the amount of money that can be paid to newly drafted players (and essentially slots them), the positional value has been completely changed. It used to be that teams only valued certain positions at the high end of the first round (with obvious rare exceptions) due to the cost of those contracts (DL, LT, QB, CB, WR) and other positions were typically left to later in the draft (LB(excluding hybrids), S, OG/RT, RB, TE). I believe that with the new reduced pay scales for drafted players, that the old "value" scheme should/will be thrown out and teams should/will be much more likely to take very highly rated players at those old "non-value" positions at higher points in the draft. The reason for this is simply, the contract limitations in the new CBA make taking a 5th overall RT/S/OG/any position very cheap if you think you are getting a stud player there and teams will no longer have to worry about having too much cap space tied up in certain positions/units because the CBA prevents it. To this end, if the Browns (for instance) are in position to take the top tackle in this draft at #4/5 (and we have him rated top of our board), we can actually make that pick and play him at RT without having to worry about it being too costly of a pick.
High-price positions are not high price because of some arbitrary rule that means LT's must be paid twice as much as LBs. It's because the majority of teams feel that a great LT contributes more to a football team than a great LB. That will remain true, even if all the salaries for drafted players are cut in half.
What it does do (dramatically I think), is change the trade value chart (especially for the top 5 picks). These very high picks used to have very little value in trades (although the listed numbers were still high), because when you took a player that high, you had to pay them a crazy amount of money. Just by trading down from 5 to say, 15, you opened up another $30 million or so to sign a high-power free agent. So I think the top 5 picks are much better now, than they have been in the past.
I also think you will see more trades up to those top 5 picks (like Atlanta last year), because teams that want to win now will couple a low first round pick and their first round pick next year (they are in win now mode) in order to get that guy who can help them immediately. I expect many more of that type of trade this year.
Maybe the Browns can take another one?
(Sorry refs: my post seem to disappear into the void when the thread got moved, so I've copied it over by hand)
Original Spot Actual spot Pick 1. IND 5. WAS Andrew Luck, QB, Stanford 2. STL 2. STL Justin Blackmon, WR, Oklahoma State 3. MIN 6. MIA Matt Barkley, QB, Southern California 4. CLE 14. SEA Robert Griffin III, QB, Baylor 5. WAS 1. IND Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU 6. MIA 3. MIN Matt Kalil, OT, Southern California 7. CAR 7. CAR Devon Still, DT, Penn State 8. JAC 8. JAC Michael Floyd, WR, Notre Dame 9. TB 9. TB Dre Kirkpatrick, CB, Alabama 10. KC 10. KC Riley Reiff, OT, Iowa 11. PHI 11. PHI Luke Kuechly, ILB, Boston College 12. BUF 19. CHI Trent Richardson, RB, Alabama 13. ARI 13. ARI Quinton Coples, DE, North Carolina 14. SEA 4. CLE Alshon Jeffery, WR, South Carolina 15. SD 15. SD David DeCastro, OG, Stanford 16. DAL 16. DAL Alfonzo Dennard, CB, Nebraska 17. TEN 17. TEN Dontari Poe, DT, Memphis 18. CIN 18. CIN Cordy Glenn, OG, Georgia 19. CHI 12. BUF Courtney Upshaw, OLB, Alabama 20. CIN 20. CIN Janoris Jenkins, CB, North Alabama 21. NYJ 21. NYJ Kendall Wright, WR, Baylor 22. NYG 22. NYG Lamar Miller, RB, Miami (Fla.) 23. DEN 23. DEN Ryan Tannehill, QB, Texas A&M 24. DET 24. DET Brandon Lindsey, OLB, Pittsburgh 25. HOU 25. HOU Jonathan Martin, OT, Stanford 26. CLE 26. CLE Mike Adams, OT, Ohio State 27. PIT 27. PIT Kelechi Osemele, OG, Iowa State 28. NE 28. NE Mark Barron, SS, Alabama 29. BAL 29. BAL Whitney Mercilus, DE, Illinois 30. SF 30. SF Nick Perry, DE, Southern California 31. NE 31. NE Melvin Ingram, DE, South Carolina 32. GB 32. GB Billy Winn, DE, Boise State I thought I would try a mock draft and see how it came out. I know there will ne some major dicrepencies as I am no into the technical aspect of the game to and have not studied all the players. I.E. OLB's who may or may not be suited for a particular defense etc. It would not surprise me to see Daniel Snyder give up alot to jump up for Luck and I could see the Colts doing that type of deal. I guess now it is purely speculation anyway as I see some of the mocks have had us at four different spots in the draft from 11 to 4 and taking Richardson at each instance, even bypassing Barkley, RGIII and Blackmon.
Also I have tried numerous times to make this post more readable but no matter how I try to space the columns it still looks like a jumbled mess. Sorry.
1. IND 5. WAS Andrew Luck, QB, Stanford 2. STL 2. STL Justin Blackmon, WR, Oklahoma State 3. MIN 6. MIA Matt Barkley, QB, Southern California 4. CLE 14. SEA Robert Griffin III, QB, Baylor 5. WAS 1. IND Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU 6. MIA 3. MIN Matt Kalil, OT, Southern California 7. CAR 7. CAR Devon Still, DT, Penn State 8. JAC 8. JAC Michael Floyd, WR, Notre Dame 9. TB 9. TB Dre Kirkpatrick, CB, Alabama 10. KC 10. KC Riley Reiff, OT, Iowa 11. PHI 11. PHI Luke Kuechly, ILB, Boston College 12. BUF 19. CHI Trent Richardson, RB, Alabama 13. ARI 13. ARI Quinton Coples, DE, North Carolina 14. SEA 4. CLE Alshon Jeffery, WR, South Carolina 15. SD 15. SD David DeCastro, OG, Stanford 16. DAL 16. DAL Alfonzo Dennard, CB, Nebraska 17. TEN 17. TEN Dontari Poe, DT, Memphis 18. CIN 18. CIN Cordy Glenn, OG, Georgia 19. CHI 12. BUF Courtney Upshaw, OLB, Alabama 20. CIN 20. CIN Janoris Jenkins, CB, North Alabama 21. NYJ 21. NYJ Kendall Wright, WR, Baylor 22. NYG 22. NYG Lamar Miller, RB, Miami (Fla.) 23. DEN 23. DEN Ryan Tannehill, QB, Texas A&M 24. DET 24. DET Brandon Lindsey, OLB, Pittsburgh 25. HOU 25. HOU Jonathan Martin, OT, Stanford 26. CLE 26. CLE Mike Adams, OT, Ohio State 27. PIT 27. PIT Kelechi Osemele, OG, Iowa State 28. NE 28. NE Mark Barron, SS, Alabama 29. BAL 29. BAL Whitney Mercilus, DE, Illinois 30. SF 30. SF Nick Perry, DE, Southern California 31. NE 31. NE Melvin Ingram, DE, South Carolina 32. GB 32. GB Billy Winn, DE, Boise State
I put up my Top 50 in a different thread (I think) just a little while ago...it hasn't changed much since then but it fits here since you guys are discussing that.
1. Andrew Luck - QB - Stanford 2. Matt Kalil - LT - USC 3. Matt Barkley - QB - USC 4. Trent Richardson - RB - Alabama 5. Quinton Coples - DE43 - North Carolina 6. Morris Claiborne - CB - LSU 7. Justin Blackmon - WR - Oklahoma St 8. Riley Reiff - LT - Iowa 9. Dre Kirkpatrick - CB - Alabama 10. Luke Kuechly - MLB - Boston College 11. Robert Griffin - QB - Baylor 12. Michael Floyd - WR - Notre Dame 13. David DeCastro - OG - Stanford 14. Johnathan Martin - LT - Stanford 15. Devon Still - DT43 - Penn St 16. Alfonzo Dennard - CB - Nebraska 17. Landry Jones - QB - Oklahoma 18. Courtney Upshaw - OLB34 - Alabama 19. Brandon Thompson - DT43 - Clemson 20. Alshon Jeffery - WR - South Carolina 21. Zach Brown - OLB43 - North Carolina 22. Lamar Miller - RB - Miami 23. Vontaze Burfict - MLB - Arizona St 24. Jared Crick - DE34 - Nebraska 25. Whitney Mercilus - DE43 - Illinois 26. Kendall Wright - WR - Baylor 27. Juron Criner - WR - Arizona 28. Mark Barron - SS - Alabama 29. Don'ta Hightower - MLB - Alabama 30. Mike Adams - RT - Ohio St 31. Dwayne Allen - TE - Clemson 32. Cordy Glenn - OG - Georgia 33. Janoris Jenkins - CB - North Alabama 34. Melvin Ingram - DE43 - South Carolina 35. Ryan Tannehill - QB - Texas A&M 36. Nick Perry - OLB34 - USC 37. TJ McDonald - FS - USC 38. Jarvis Jones - OLB43 - Georgia 39. Brandon Jenkins - OLB34 - Florida St 40. Chase Minnifield - CB - Virginia 41. Mohamed Sanu - WR - Rutgers 42. Jerel Worthy - DT43 - Michigan St 43. Levy Adcock - RT - Oklahoma St 44. Ronnell Lewis - OLB43 - Oklahoma 45. Johnthan Banks - CB - Mississippi St 46. Zebrie Sanders - LT - Florida St 47. Peter Konz - OC - Wisconsin 48. LaMichael James - RB - Oregon 49. Bruce Irvin - OLB34 - West Virginia 50. Stephon Gilmore - CB - South Carolina
Here's what I don't see though. If Indy decides to keep Manning/trade Luck, then there is no way I see them walking away from a beast like Richardson. Manning will want another weapon and they will be in total win now mode by making that trade.
If that's the top 50, we should get 3 of those guys should we not deal any picks? I hope that is a deep group. It seems pretty good but it doesn't seem loaded like you get maybe 2 or 3 times every decade.
Who should we shoot for (be realistic) with our first three picks? If you advocate trading up to get Luck, include what you would give up.
Me: Blackmon, Coples, Mike Adams. Also, I'd trade the two No. 1s to move up, but not next year's. If Indy wants to go with Manning, they'd well to get the No. 4 and a later No. 1.
Quote: Who should we shoot for (be realistic) with our first three picks? If you advocate trading up to get Luck, include what you would give up.
Me: Blackmon, Coples, Mike Adams. Also, I'd trade the two No. 1s to move up, but not next year's. If Indy wants to go with Manning, they'd well to get the No. 4 and a later No. 1.
First 3 picks....sure I will play along in order RG3, Michael Floyd, and Chase Minnifield, then the best RT left on the board.
Assuming we don't trade up for Luck and Blackmon and Barkley are both gone I trade down to hopefully 8-12 range and pick up an extra 2nd this year and a 2nd or 3rd next year.
Option 3: 1A - Michael Floyd - WR Notre Dame 1B - Whitney Mercilus - DE Illinois 2A - Chase Minnifield - CB Virginia 2B - Levy Adcock - RT Oklahoma St
Assuming we trade up for Luck (I give up both 1st's and a 3rd this year, plus a 3rd next year...doubt that gets it done but it's where I'd at least start)
Option 4: 1 - Andrew Luck - QB Stanford 2 - Mohamed Sanu - WR Rutgers 4 - Andre Branch - DE Clemson
Can Skrine be a starter next year? He had the fastest 40 time and most bench reps of any CB in last year's draft, has a good attitude and seems to have played fairly well. And is there any way that Pinkston is a suitable RT?
I like Buster, but see him more as a CB3.......I think Minnifield and Haden as our starters sounds pretty darn good to me, with Buster playing behind both of them.....Im ready to move on from the Sheldon Brown experiment
The kid is pretty solid CB....you can youtube him for highlights but cant really get a good idea just from watching the good plays.
and as far as Casey Matthews I still think we should of drafted him, he could of helped us out. And for what its worth the spot he got taken at I think we should of grabbed him.
Minnifield is pretty good corner tho to answer your question.
Hey may very well be a great CB. Like I said, I haven't watched him at all (I'm no draft guru in the least). I just worry sometimes that people see a guy's name and automatically play him up.
As of right now: Trade back ( Seattle?) and get: 1A. WR Michael Floyd or Alshon Jeffery 1B. OT Mike Adams 2. DE Whitney Mercilus It all hinges on Heckert and Holmgrens opinion of McCoy and what happens between now and draft day with Hillis.
Casey Matthews would be playing a lot this year, if not starting. I watched him last weekend, and he was all over the place, just like his big brother. Well, maybe not just like Clay, but ....
I like Skrine as well but he's still young and unproven. I wouldn't want to go into next year with him penciled in as a starter yet. Let him earn it with his play as a backup until then.
CB1 - Joe Haden CB2 - Chase Minnifield CB3 - Dmitri Patterson CB4 - Buster Skrine CB5 - Mike Adams
As for Minnifield, I'd be lying if I didn't say sentiment for his dad didn't play SOME part in wanting him. But the kid is a flat out player just like his dad. He's an early 2nd round pick for any team (and could even slide into late 1st round if his combine/pro days go well). It just so happens that we have an early 2nd round pick, CB is a priority position for high round picks and we have a need for a starting corner opposite Haden.
He is the main reason why I'd pass on Morris Claiborne with our 1st pick.
Graff, those are good scenarios. But are you assuming we don't need a replacement for Hillis? I agree that RBs can be had later, but some gurus are calling Richardson the best prospect since Adrian Peterson. He MIGHT be the exception that you use a high pick on. Personally, I'd rather resign Hillis, build a dominant OL and start converting third and even fourth and shorts with smash-mouth football.
Quote: Who should we shoot for (be realistic) with our first three picks? If you advocate trading up to get Luck, include what you would give up.
Me: Blackmon, Coples, Mike Adams. Also, I'd trade the two No. 1s to move up, but not next year's. If Indy wants to go with Manning, they'd well to get the No. 4 and a later No. 1.
First 3 picks....sure I will play along in order RG3, Michael Floyd, and Chase Minnifield, then the best RT left on the board.
I would be quite happy with those 2 first round picks ..... and from what I have heard about Minnifield, I think I'd be pretty happy with that pick too.
Then grab a LB, DE, and T .... and we'd be in pretty decent shape for a turnaround.
No way am I spending a top 5 pick on a RB. Not in today's NFL and especially not in our offense.
I want to re-sign Hillis as long as his contract demands aren't stupid. If they are, then let him walk. I'd be fine grabbing a FA RB or looking at one of :
Bernard Pierce - Temple Doug Martin - Boise St Jeff Demps - Florida Isaiah Pead - Cincinnati Robert Turbin - Utah St
Whomever drops from that group in Rounds 5 or higher.
Get a QB and a #1 WR so the defense actually fears/respects the pass...and then a good blocking OLine...and Johnny-generic NFL running back will challenge for 1000 yard seasons.
A lot of mention of DE Whitney Mercilus in the past few threads. We really need a DE opposite Sheard. Definitely a good pas rusher and if stout vs the run great. I don't get a good feeling from Couples. Can somebody breakdown Whitney Mercilus' game? How does that compare to the DE from So Cal (Perry?) or So Carolina Ingram?
#1 QB Luck (trade for 2x1st, 2nd, 4th and 6th...all this draft, we'd still have 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th)
Option 2:
1a QB Barkley or QB Griffin 1b CB Dennard 2 DE Mercilus
Option 3:
1a QB Barkley or QB Griffin 1b WR K.Wright 2a CB Minnifield or CB Gilmore or DE Mercilus
Overall this is a VERY deep CB class...I would cut Sheldon and draft a CB with 1 of the 3 top 50 picks and then double dip in the 4th/5th...we'd be settled for years
Quote: No way am I spending a top 5 pick on a RB. Not in today's NFL and especially not in our offense.
I want to re-sign Hillis as long as his contract demands aren't stupid. If they are, then let him walk. I'd be fine grabbing a FA RB or looking at one of :
Bernard Pierce - Temple Doug Martin - Boise St Jeff Demps - Florida Isaiah Pead - Cincinnati Robert Turbin - Utah St
Whomever drops from that group in Rounds 5 or higher.
Get a QB and a #1 WR so the defense actually fears/respects the pass...and then a good blocking OLine...and Johnny-generic NFL running back will challenge for 1000 yard seasons.
Agreed.....Id rather take a flyer on a Boom Herron in the 4th or 5th round than draft one in the first with us having so many other needs...I mean if we re-sign Hillis, Hardesty is going to be here next year if we like it or not, and we have Brandon Jackson coming back who I think would of been great for us. Not to mention Obi, and Smith on the practice squad we will have plenty of depth. Not to mention we dont know who is or who isnt going to be on the FA wire.
Id much rather go get QB and WR in the first round...takes care of two areas of weakness. I think our depth at RB is pretty decent.
If we get a steal (Claiborne at 10) you take the CB but I wouldn't target a CB with any of our 1st 3 picks. I think we would be ok with Haden/Peterson/Skrine if we could find a good ballhawking free safety (I don't see any in this draft) and an improved pass rush. I think the same quality player at S or DE would improve our defense more than CB but if CB is clearly the best player available you take him.
- I'm off the Coples bandwagon....3 reasons: 1. While having a very high ceiling he's just too much a boom or bust spec, and in the top 10 that's a no go for a 4 win team....2. Inconsistent effort is MAJOR red flag for ANY player in the trenches and esp. for a guy picked in the top 10....3. Sheard's emergence lessens the need to swing for a hgh ceiling guy at DE
- lots of CBs I like...Claiborn is a stud and would be a luxury pick with Haden on the roster...I REALLY like Dennard with the ATL pick, perfect fit for the D and as #2 CB...while Minnifield is ok I think we can get a similar talent in the 3rd in Judie or Boykin or even Fleming...I also like Gilmore over Minnifield
- still not sure about some DEs....taking those JR DEs is always a risk because it's easy to put up impressive stats when nobody is game planning against you. I really like Ingram but Curry and Branch are ok too...there sure aren't many day 1 starters, so we have to get a DE no later than with the 3rd, probably earlier
- late round (mostly big school) sleepers (200+ on most internet boards right now) WR Boykin, DT Harrell, DE Binns, OT James Brown, CB/FS Golden, OLB Kaddu, OLB S.Brown, G B.Brooks, LB J.Harris, S B.Taylor, S W.Guy, TE/FB Smelley, QB Persa, LB Marve, LB A.Cole
I know you can't get too Buckeye crazy, but Posey could be a steal at WR. Despite his suspension, he is actually a good attitude guy and he might fall. I think Little will take a big step next year, but we still need a field stretching No. 1 wideout.
Quote: If we get a steal (Claiborne at 10) you take the CB but I wouldn't target a CB with any of our 1st 3 picks. I think we would be ok with Haden/Peterson/Skrine if we could find a good ballhawking free safety (I don't see any in this draft) and an improved pass rush. I think the same quality player at S or DE would improve our defense more than CB but if CB is clearly the best player available you take him.
I agree with your last point 100%....this D needs a FS and DE more than an upgrade at #2 CB....but I'm not sure Patterson or Skrine will hold up on the outside...I view them more as inside CBs with spot starting ability...so, while I think Patterson can be ok there and Skrine still has a lot of upside to become a #2 CB...I still wouldn't go into the season betting on it...at least not next season
Also, not sure if Patterson is here next season...can't find any contract details...is he a FA?
Heckert wasn't perfect but he FINALLY solidified nickel/dime DB duties with a cheap FA sign and a 5th rounder
Bernard Pierce - Temple Doug Martin - Boise St Jeff Demps - Florida Isaiah Pead - Cincinnati Robert Turbin - Utah St
Whomever drops from that group in Rounds 5 or higher.
Of these guys, I like Doug Martin and Bernard Pierce. Although Martin is a better pass catcher than Pierce. Plus I get nervous about Pierce's size.
But I watched him play UConn last year, and I saw NFL written all over him. Came from a very well coached Temple team. Looks like he had a great season this year too.
And I've always heard that Doug Martin was a good RB
But none of these guys are NFL regular starting material. There is one guy who most definitely is though. That's Trent Richardson. He's ridiculously good. Seeing that he can catch the ball and is in the AFC North on an outdoor field, I think he'd be a good fit for us
I would love to see somebody do an evaluation of Richardson with 1a vs Lamar Smith Mia with pick 1b.
1a QB Barkley or RG3 1b RB Lamar Smith 1b 2 WR Kendall Wright or Fuller (Maybe a little optimistic hoping Wright falls this far but 3 Adcock (Does he last this far? Waltersfootball.com has us taking him with this pick) Otherwise Massie/Datko/Reynolds here or maybe even with 4a. Later perhaps Jarius Wright wr Arkansas
Growing pains next year with all these rookies on offense but with this draft and either our OG's progress or we sign a FA or we draft one the following year and this offense is fixed for the next decade. Of course the defense is ignored but we can't fix everything in one season - just too much.
The more and more I think about it…here is what I can see happening. I think there is no way we win either of our last two games with both Pittsburgh and Baltimore needing to win out (I do hope we at least show signs of improvement in these games and gain a little bit of momentum going into the off-season). I do think Jacksonville will beat Indy in week 17 jumping their win total to 5 wins and moving us up to the 4th overall pick.
First off, let me start by stating I do believe it is going to be hard for us to sign a big name free agent in one of the major playmaker positions. I do believe that we should try to grab one of the best available offensive linemen in free agency. I also think H&H will be looking to sign young talent to bring in to camp in order to compete for starting jobs next year. If we could knock out that position of need (OL), especially with Steinbach coming back next year, I think we do have enough draft choices to potentially hit all our positional needs, but we MUST hit on each pick (H&H hit a high percentage of their draft picks so far, IMHO).
With the first 3 picks most likely being Indy – Luck, Minnesota – Kalil, and St. Louis – Blackmon, I think we have many different options at trading down to make ourselves a better team in 2012. With both potentially RG3 and Barkley on the board, there are a lot of teams picking in the 8 – 12 range that would love a shot at grabbing one of those two guys. If we could trade back into that 8 – 12 range and still grab Trent Richardson, while picking up a 2nd and 3rd or potentially and 1st and 3rd next year (something like that as I do not know what it would take), I would do that in a heartbeat. With Atlanta’s pick, I would love to grab the WR out of Baylor K Wright. I think that could give us a top notch running back with a deep threat WR in Wright that could really make an immediate impact/upgrade to our offense while upgrading our OL in Free Agency. With our 2nd round pick, I would look for a CB to pair up with Haden. If we could nail down another lock down CB with our 2nd round pick, our secondary would be killer for many years (Haden, Ward, Skrine, Dockery, Hagg, Patterson are all so young and talented).
With our 3rd and two 4th round picks I would take best available OL, DL, and LB (in no particular order). Rounds 5 and on I would take the fastest players available at a depth need position and hopefully we can hit on 1 or 2 of them (WR – Posey??). I would also take a developmental QB to compete and push McCoy for a year to see if he is the real deal or not.
This doesn’t even take into account the extra picks we could potentially pick up this year for trading down from 4 to 8-12 in potentially the 2nd and 3rd rounds. What are your thoughts on this scenario???
Oops...I forgot to add in my previous post that another area I would like to address in free agency and think that we could upgrade at is the TE position. With the way Watson is going...might be time to look for an upgrade there as well.
I think that could be a good scenario. I have been thinking about Seattle trading up to get Barkley possibly.Right now they sit at 14, I think.Although 14 may be to far down for Richardson, we could get a WR there and maybe Oline with the Atlanta pick.
What can we get from Seattle to let Pete Carroll trade up for his old QB? I wrote in another thread that we might be able to get their Nos. 1 and 2 this year and No. 1 next year. Is that realistic? If so, I believe Tanehill or even Landry Jones will freefall to the second round. Not that many teams need QBs. It's the one position where you ALWAYS draft based on need and NEVER best player available.
That's all nice and dandy....except that WE ARE 1 of those teams who should love grabbing a QB
Those teams picking n the 8-12 range like MIA, WAS, SEA, ARI etc have had better QB play this season than us....so if they are so desperate to trade up and give up the farm for one of those QBs, shouldn't we just pick one of them when we DONT have to give up the farm?...just an idea
The closer we get to draft day the more people get "prospect happy"...as if rookies instantly improve the team....newsflash: they DONT, they take time, they come into the league facing an uphill battle....on day 1of TC a 3rd year UDFA camp guy is probably better than most 1st rounders, rookies TAKE TIME....even no brainer picks like Mack took a full season until he looked decent...Haden didn't even start for the 1st half of his rookie year and he was a top 10 pick...so all those extra 2nds and 3rds are nice but they won't fix the team for the 2012 season and maybe, actually probably, are still inconsistent in 2013
What we've seen with Sheard is absolutely the EXCEPTION, not the norm...the "good norm" are guys like Taylor and Little, who flash but are still inconsistent...and considering the positions these guys play it is nothing short of amazing what Heckert and Shurmur/Jauron accomplished....so, expecting them to be able to do the same with next draft's top 3 picks is setting the bar VERY high...and I suspect many believe it is "normal" what they did but it wasn't...after the trade down we didn't have a Top 20 pick, those 3 guys were all picked between 20-60 and all 3 are ALREADY major contributors...that's NOT the norm, esp. with little vet building blocks around them
Also, last year's draft was incredibly deep as a lot more JRs left school looking for the last big payday draft....this class isn't even close....again, a guy like Pinkston would be considered a borderline top 100 pick in THIS draft
Fair point about the QBs, but I'm not sure I'd value Barkley higher than Tannehill or Landry Jones. I just know that Seattle would. One thing I actually might trust Holmgren on at this point is evaluating QBs coming out of the draft. Remember, he didn't so much choose McCoy as the guy was sitting there late and he took a flier. So if these guys decide to go all in for RG 3 or Barkley, or wait a while and grab Jones or Tannehill, I'll be on board.
I have "found" my 1st prospects making my "no go" list...I would not draft most of these guys AT ALL, as I'm sure they won't make it in the NFL...and most are considered mid round picks or higher....Carlton Mitchell made this list a couple of years ago, we only burned a 6th so I wasn't very vocal but I think Deep rememebers I still considered it a bad pick....this list has been incredibly accurate the last years and it helps my preparation for the draft and my annual mock
Here goes and feel free to discuss, disagree etc, maybe you'll be able to talk someone off the list (yeah I know, good luck with that, lol):
WR Posey QB L.Jones WR Streeter CB J.Jenkins DT/DE Crick (no 43 fit, maybe as 34 5tech, but even there not worth the investment it takes)
Both WE Floyd and WR Jeffery are very close to make the list, have to dig a little deeper on both, but not liking the consensus drift of their reports
Here's why (besides the fact I'm a Buckeye) I'd take Posey off the list. The crap those guys did (tattoos for memorabilia) was hardly legit criminal behavior. He is about to finish his degree, and the whole time he was suspended, he supposedly busted his butt in practice, etc. It's not like he just quit going to class or blew off his team. I think he's got good character. And he is very talented. It's been weird to watch Landry Jones fall out of favor. He started the season out ahead of Barkley. I've heard he has a great arm and is a solid guy (not another Mallet) but is immobile. I dunno, I'd grab him with a No. 2 if we don't take a QB earlier.
please, you have to explain the Jenkins one. It's not just that you think he'll get overdrafted, right? It's that "he won't make it?" You think he's too much of a knucklehead?
Posey isn't on the list because of the off field stuff, although it's another indicator of poor character/work ethic....he has shown lots of on field problems, he never played up to his supposed talent....underachiever in College pretty much NEVER make it in the NFL....that's why I hated the Massa pick...Posey is raw as a route runner and isn't very physical and hasn't a lot of fight in him....sounds like another Robo or Massa to me
Jones was a worse Sooner QB than Bradford, who is "not there yet" after 2 seasons and everytime I got to watch Jones he was simply horrible in everything that is important to the position....he's a 1 read QB, with little pocket awareness...I don't expect CFB QBs to look off defenders but atleast to make the decision to not throw to your 1st read if he's triple covered....no progressions and stupid decisions is all I've seen from Landry...he's a longshot, VERY RAW QB prospect and a developmental QB only...best served going back for his SR year and improve at least 1 thing before entering the NFL
I forgot another player on the list: WR Kearse
Give me guys like AJ Jenkins, Boykin or even Jordan White any day over overrated guys like Kearse, Streeter and Posey
A guy like Baldwin went undrafted and is now one of the best rookie WRs in Seattle...you can draft a Bess, Colston, Baldwin in ANY draft...instead GMs swing for bums like Massa, Robo, Turner (USC) etc EVERY draft....big school WR who look the part but underachieved are a LOCK to not make it in the NFL...when we drafted Massa and Robo in 09 I targeted Collie and Mike Thomas in the 4th...both more productive receivers, available 2 rounds later...you really can draft a pretty strong WR unit without even looking at WRs in the top rounds, just ask the Saints, they drafted backups in Meachem and Henderson with early picks and their best receivers are Graham a 4th rounder, Colston 7th and Moore UDFA
This draft AJ Jenkins looks like the Denarius Moore of this draft, a big school sleeper, with iffy QB play, yet still produced...I don't know how anyone can rate Streeter, Kearse or Posey ahead of him...just stupid
Quote: That's all nice and dandy....except that WE ARE 1 of those teams who should love grabbing a QB
Those teams picking n the 8-12 range like MIA, WAS, SEA, ARI etc have had better QB play this season than us....so if they are so desperate to trade up and give up the farm for one of those QBs, shouldn't we just pick one of them when we DONT have to give up the farm?...just an idea
The closer we get to draft day the more people get "prospect happy"...as if rookies instantly improve the team....newsflash: they DONT, they take time, they come into the league facing an uphill battle....on day 1of TC a 3rd year UDFA camp guy is probably better than most 1st rounders, rookies TAKE TIME....even no brainer picks like Mack took a full season until he looked decent...Haden didn't even start for the 1st half of his rookie year and he was a top 10 pick...so all those extra 2nds and 3rds are nice but they won't fix the team for the 2012 season and maybe, actually probably, are still inconsistent in 2013
What we've seen with Sheard is absolutely the EXCEPTION, not the norm...the "good norm" are guys like Taylor and Little, who flash but are still inconsistent...and considering the positions these guys play it is nothing short of amazing what Heckert and Shurmur/Jauron accomplished....so, expecting them to be able to do the same with next draft's top 3 picks is setting the bar VERY high...and I suspect many believe it is "normal" what they did but it wasn't...after the trade down we didn't have a Top 20 pick, those 3 guys were all picked between 20-60 and all 3 are ALREADY major contributors...that's NOT the norm, esp. with little vet building blocks around them
Also, last year's draft was incredibly deep as a lot more JRs left school looking for the last big payday draft....this class isn't even close....again, a guy like Pinkston would be considered a borderline top 100 pick in THIS draft
Just asking. Why could the same thing not be said about McCOy as he is virtually a rookie this season given the new scheme and lack of a full off season. The thought behind trading back is assuming that Holmgren and Heckert elect to stick with McCoy. I don't know if he has what it takes to be the QB of this team for the long haul or not as I am not privy to all the information that the front office has. But if there is even a hint of question regarding McCoy then I whole heartedly agree with you about drafting a QB this year.Although I don't think I give up three firsts for Luck. I'm not a football coach or scout or anything remotely associated with being a qualified talent evaluator but when I watch highlights of Luck and Barkley I don't see much gap in talent between the two.
Seems like teams like the Steelers (Wallace, Brown), Giants (Cruz) are always finding these gem WRs in late rounds. But if we can't spot guys like that, the next best thing is to use one of our No. 1s on one. If we resign Hillis, solidify RT and get a guy like Blackmon or Floyd, maybe we can be respectable on offense.
Quote: please, you have to explain the Jenkins one. It's not just that you think he'll get overdrafted, right? It's that "he won't make it?" You think he's too much of a knucklehead?
I wouldn't waste a Top 3 round pick on the next Pacman Jones...the off field stuff would have put him "just" in Massa-territory as in, please don't draft him in the Top 100..the fact that he seems not to like to tackle is the kicker that got him off my board completely....a press-cover CB only with off field strikes?
In our system and in todays NFL you need COMPLETE CBs....cover-CBs are dying out in this league with the new rules...you absolutely have to be a good and WILLING tackler, esp. in system like ours where we expose the outside for runs....that's why I LOVE Dennard with the ATL pick, perfect fit....Judie is another guy I really like, if we can't get them Fletcher in the 4th is a decent consolation prize or Tandy in the 5th as inside guy with #2 upside, FSU's Harris is similar...all willing and fundamentally sound tacklers...in the late rounds or as UDFA Toldeo Rocket CB Marrow is worth a look...he could be the next Sherman (rookie CB in SEA)
I always liked those small slot/#2 CB tweeners who aren't afraid to tackle...I always see Winfield upside....I love Dennard but we really don't need to sell out in our search for a #2 CB
Just like WR, you can find decent CBs that fit your system in almost every round....you just have to have a good eye for them
Quote: Seems like teams like the Steelers (Wallace, Brown), Giants (Cruz) are always finding these gem WRs in late rounds. But if we can't spot guys like that, the next best thing is to use one of our No. 1s on one. If we resign Hillis, solidify RT and get a guy like Blackmon or Floyd, maybe we can be respectable on offense.
Colston, Garcon, etc... they aren't "gems" as much as they are talented guys who came into good situations... the common denominator is that they all came into good QB situations. I agree with everybody that says QBs make WRs, not the other way around... we need stability and production from the QB position, whether its McCoy or somebody else... then suddenly we will start finding these late round "gems"...
That FIU corner that's smallish but tough looked pretty decent in the little bit of the Marshall game that I saw. Obviously, I can't endorse him having only seen a few plays, but I'll watch him when i get around to watching my DVR of the game. He made some really strong tackles behind the LOS.
Quote: I would love to see somebody do an evaluation of Richardson with 1a vs Lamar Smith Mia with pick 1b.
as the unofficial spokesperson for Lamar Miller on this board (assuming typo as you meant the Miami RB)
Lamar Miller reminds me of McCoy. Richardson is more like a slower version of Adrian Peterson. So yes, I like Miller better than Richardson for our offense as I think he would be fantastic and is a huge playmaker.
Add in that we can take a QB or WR with our 1A pick and it is a no-brainer to me (if we are going to select a RB that high).
The one thing we might do is gamble that Miller lasts until our 2 pick. If we do, then we could lock up another spot as well as most teams do not like selecting RB in the 1st. I think he would be gone though.
I don't expect any rookie QB to be a huge upgrade over Colt in his 3rd year...I think a couple of guys could be better than him day 1 but I don't draft a QB for 2012...next year's season is still a rebuilding one....sure, if we keep McCoy the starter, trade down collect more valuable picks for RB, WR and RT, sign some decent FAs we could look decent for the next seasons but that's not what I want...I'd much rather have another 4 win season in 2012 with a rookie QB than a perennial 7-9 win team with Colt at the helm
I've said so many time and it's why I don't engage myself in Colt debates anymore as everythin has been said by now....he just doesn't have the upside left worth waiting for...he's not good at ANYTHING important for the position...his best case sceanrio is to "develop" into the AVG category in those important ones and that's being nice (ie, watching Colt in the pocket for 20 games I'm sure he'll NEVER get "it"...he just guesses in the pocket and has no feel for it)....
I wasn't a big fan of the Little pick, but I see stuff worth developing and hoping for...same can be said about Pinkston and even Lauvao on Offense (not a big Lauvao fan and would still look to replace him, but he has improved more than Colt during the season) and even more so about Sheard, Taylor on D...
Players have to show something worth developing/waiting for...Colt hasn't shown enough imho....others disagree I know...as I said everything has been said, so please don't turn this thread into anotehr Colt one....we'll have to wait for H&H's decision
Colt is actually perfectly suited to be a very good NFL backup. I'm more and more thinking we should go for Barkley with 1A or Tannehill with 1B. Any other year, we (hopefully) aren't going to have such a high No. 1 AND another No. 1. This is the one draft where we wouldn't have to mortgage everything to get our franchise QB. We just have to get it right.
Quote: (if we are going to select a RB that high).
I'm not 100% sure that Hillis is gone. These last 2 games could go a long way in deciding his fate here. If he stays, it could still be 50/50 whether or not the Browns take a RB early.
This cant get by without a big "Atta Boy"!!! 
for the second year in a row the player I want going 1 pick ahead of us (Peterson last year, and Barkley this year)
Typing that last line makes me realize something. It's not about draft picks, its about Coaching, Coaches make the teams win,.