Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/15/11 07:48 PM
Since the other thread is about to get locked....carry on here.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 01:15 AM
@YTown:
I don't see any reason why he couldn't be.
Sure. Why not?
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Now, let me ask you a question. Do you honestly see Colt McCoy, no matter what we can realistically put around him, as a Super Bowl quality QB?
I don't see any reason why he couldn't be.
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Do you think that he can take a team, and overcome the inevitable setbacks and injuries that befall every single team in the NFL, and still lead his team to a championship?
Sure. Why not?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 02:22 AM
I'm just trying to get a grasp on why you think that?
I mean, I like Colt. I wanted nothing more than for Colt to succeed. But as I watched some of the games, even early on this season (and they haven't got better), I noticed that Colt was literally doing nothing good. I was trying to think of all the things that make a good QB (good decisions, good pocket presence, good arm, accurate, hits receivers in stride, takes the team on his back, etc.) and Colt wasn't doing any of it.
Hell, he was not doing anything that he was supposed to be good at (quick smart reads, accurate short passes, etc.). We have had receivers slowing down all season in order to catch the ball, throws at the feet throws over heads, throws too far right and left, throws when receivers have to stop, throws when receivers 5 yards behind the ball, numerous should be interceptions, numerous knock downs at the line, tons of sacks because Colt doesn't step up in the pocket, sacks because he leaves the pocket to early. I mean, what can anyone say Colt did good this year (other than a pass or two a game--which I forgot to add, is SAD when that's all we have to go off of)? Escapability maybe. So I ask honestly, what has Colt showed you that made him appear like he could be the future?
Now, I'm really not trying to write Colt off completely (only as a starter for this team). While he hasn't done anything spectacular for this team, he really hasn't been terrible. He just hasn't showed me ANYTHING that made him look like he'd be a superstar (or even solid starter) in this league.
And I get it. I've heard it a thousand times for 13 years-- He doesn't have any WR's, or a running game, or the line sucks, or the defense sucks, etc. etc. etc. I don't really care about that. Good receivers don't help your accuracy, arm strength, or decision making. They do help timing, I'll give you that, but not the type of timing where your QB is blatantly late to throwing it. And despite what anyone says, our line has been pretty solid (all things considered) this year, especially in pass blocking.
You're judged by how you are playing in the moment. We can't keep making the excuse that "once we get a better team around him he'll improve." Well no sh*t he'll improve. Everyone in the league will improve with better players all around him.
I want a player at my most important position to help improve those around him, not the other way around.
I mean, I like Colt. I wanted nothing more than for Colt to succeed. But as I watched some of the games, even early on this season (and they haven't got better), I noticed that Colt was literally doing nothing good. I was trying to think of all the things that make a good QB (good decisions, good pocket presence, good arm, accurate, hits receivers in stride, takes the team on his back, etc.) and Colt wasn't doing any of it.
Hell, he was not doing anything that he was supposed to be good at (quick smart reads, accurate short passes, etc.). We have had receivers slowing down all season in order to catch the ball, throws at the feet throws over heads, throws too far right and left, throws when receivers have to stop, throws when receivers 5 yards behind the ball, numerous should be interceptions, numerous knock downs at the line, tons of sacks because Colt doesn't step up in the pocket, sacks because he leaves the pocket to early. I mean, what can anyone say Colt did good this year (other than a pass or two a game--which I forgot to add, is SAD when that's all we have to go off of)? Escapability maybe. So I ask honestly, what has Colt showed you that made him appear like he could be the future?
Now, I'm really not trying to write Colt off completely (only as a starter for this team). While he hasn't done anything spectacular for this team, he really hasn't been terrible. He just hasn't showed me ANYTHING that made him look like he'd be a superstar (or even solid starter) in this league.
And I get it. I've heard it a thousand times for 13 years-- He doesn't have any WR's, or a running game, or the line sucks, or the defense sucks, etc. etc. etc. I don't really care about that. Good receivers don't help your accuracy, arm strength, or decision making. They do help timing, I'll give you that, but not the type of timing where your QB is blatantly late to throwing it. And despite what anyone says, our line has been pretty solid (all things considered) this year, especially in pass blocking.
You're judged by how you are playing in the moment. We can't keep making the excuse that "once we get a better team around him he'll improve." Well no sh*t he'll improve. Everyone in the league will improve with better players all around him.
I want a player at my most important position to help improve those around him, not the other way around.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 03:25 AM
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I'm just trying to get a grasp on why you think that?
Okay.
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I mean, I like Colt. I wanted nothing more than for Colt to succeed. But as I watched some of the games, even early on this season (and they haven't got better),
You're right. The play by the Browns hasn't gotten any better as the year has gone on. It's actually gotten worse.
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I noticed that Colt was literally doing nothing good. I was trying to think of all the things that make a good QB (good decisions, good pocket presence, good arm, accurate, hits receivers in stride, takes the team on his back, etc.) and Colt wasn't doing any of it.
There have been bad decisions made by Colt. I'm not saying that there weren't. I don't think his pocket presence (but to be fair, there hasn't been much of a pocket) is too big of a problem.
When the team has to ad-lib the play from the moment that the ball has been hiked, it doesn't make a young QBs job any easier.
His arm strength isn't nearly as bad as many say that it is. Every QB doesn't have as much throwing power while on the run. They might have more accuracy because they're generally throwing to the side that they're running towards.
He's not seeing open receivers that can be hit in stride very often. I suppose that he if threw picks while targeting tightly covered receivers underneath that you might be saying something else to criticize him about. Of course, dropped passes mean nothing and first downs to continue drives are overrated.
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You're judged by how you are playing in the moment. We can't keep making the excuse that "once we get a better team around him he'll improve." Well no sh*t he'll improve. Everyone in the league will improve with better players all around him.
And that all goes to receivers holding onto the ball and our RBs (Ogbonnaya excepted) averaging 3 yards per carry. Absolutely, any player that gets surrounded by better talent will play better. Surround any player, including a good one with crap and they'll be effected negatively and their play will suffer.
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I want a player at my most important position to help improve those around him, not the other way around.
I just want competency at every position. The Browns lack competency in a lot of key positions.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 03:59 AM
McCoy has had solid pockets in his past few games. He has had more time than most QBs get against those same defenses.
NO QB gets all day to throw on every single play. None. I go back to the Bernie Kosar days. Kosar loved when a team would blitz, because it gave him single coverage on the outside somewhere. He would attack that single coverage down the field, and hit the receiver at his break so that he could take a medium pass and break it big.
McCoy does not do this. He cannot hit the medium passes to the outside with any consistency. He does not put the ball on the receivers at their breaks with any consistency at all. I can remember one throw to Greg Little a few games back, a slant, that was perfect. The ball was in Little's hands as soon as he hit his break. It was beautiful. It is also the only time I can remember seeing it. It stands out so clearly.
McCoy's deep passes float. They wobble. They take all day to get to the receivers. The receivers have to slow down, or stop. I watch other offenses ... other QBs ....... and they hit their receivers with far greater consistency. They are able to attack the middle of the field effectively. They create big plays. McCoy is 8th in total passing attempts. He has 463 passes attempted. He has only 26 passes of 20+ yards. Before we attack the receivers ...... he had almost exactly the same receivers last year, and he had 23 such passes in only 222 pass attempts. He is not getting better. I have said it before, and I stand by it today ..... any QB, and I mean ANY QB can complete 5 yard passes. These are not the passes where a great QB cuts his teeth. These are not the passes that make a great QB. The attacking passes are what make a QB great. I can stand in a pocket and throw a ball to a guy standing still 5 yards away. Most people could. Any NFL QB can. These are the "gimmes". They are the last resort.
You say that play by the Brown has gotten worse over the years. Really? The OL has improved greatly. They are running the ball better. Their defense has had its ups and downs, but they have played decently in some games. They allow far far too many yards rushing ...... and their pass defense is not as good as their ranking ..... but they are far better than we had any right to expect when the season started, especially given the rookies, and complete change in scheme.
You talk about competency. I agree that we lack competency at many positions. Where we disagree is that I feel that the QB is a leading factor in the problems this team is having, and you feel that it is a reactive factor, and that he struggles because of the team around him.
I do agree that we have had far too many dropped passes, yet he has also had catches made for him by his receivers. It is much like INTs for a QB ..... he had had some dropped, actually, a lot dropped .... but in the end, he is what he is, and his numbers are what they are ..... and what his numbers say is that he is not a starter level QB.
I have laid out the things I see in depth. I have laid out my reasons for what I say in depth.
NO QB gets all day to throw on every single play. None. I go back to the Bernie Kosar days. Kosar loved when a team would blitz, because it gave him single coverage on the outside somewhere. He would attack that single coverage down the field, and hit the receiver at his break so that he could take a medium pass and break it big.
McCoy does not do this. He cannot hit the medium passes to the outside with any consistency. He does not put the ball on the receivers at their breaks with any consistency at all. I can remember one throw to Greg Little a few games back, a slant, that was perfect. The ball was in Little's hands as soon as he hit his break. It was beautiful. It is also the only time I can remember seeing it. It stands out so clearly.
McCoy's deep passes float. They wobble. They take all day to get to the receivers. The receivers have to slow down, or stop. I watch other offenses ... other QBs ....... and they hit their receivers with far greater consistency. They are able to attack the middle of the field effectively. They create big plays. McCoy is 8th in total passing attempts. He has 463 passes attempted. He has only 26 passes of 20+ yards. Before we attack the receivers ...... he had almost exactly the same receivers last year, and he had 23 such passes in only 222 pass attempts. He is not getting better. I have said it before, and I stand by it today ..... any QB, and I mean ANY QB can complete 5 yard passes. These are not the passes where a great QB cuts his teeth. These are not the passes that make a great QB. The attacking passes are what make a QB great. I can stand in a pocket and throw a ball to a guy standing still 5 yards away. Most people could. Any NFL QB can. These are the "gimmes". They are the last resort.
You say that play by the Brown has gotten worse over the years. Really? The OL has improved greatly. They are running the ball better. Their defense has had its ups and downs, but they have played decently in some games. They allow far far too many yards rushing ...... and their pass defense is not as good as their ranking ..... but they are far better than we had any right to expect when the season started, especially given the rookies, and complete change in scheme.
You talk about competency. I agree that we lack competency at many positions. Where we disagree is that I feel that the QB is a leading factor in the problems this team is having, and you feel that it is a reactive factor, and that he struggles because of the team around him.
I do agree that we have had far too many dropped passes, yet he has also had catches made for him by his receivers. It is much like INTs for a QB ..... he had had some dropped, actually, a lot dropped .... but in the end, he is what he is, and his numbers are what they are ..... and what his numbers say is that he is not a starter level QB.
I have laid out the things I see in depth. I have laid out my reasons for what I say in depth.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 05:42 AM
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McCoy has had solid pockets in his past few games. He has had more time than most QBs get against those same defenses.
The Browns OL has allowed Colt McCoy to get hit 74 times this season. That's the fifth most in the NFL, behind STL, SEA, WAS, and MIA.
The Browns average 3.5 ypc in the running game. That's atrocious! If it wasn't for Ogbonnaya, those would be even worse.
They're doing a swell job though.
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NO QB gets all day to throw on every single play. None.
I'm not asking them to have all day to throw on every single play. At this point, I'd settle for mediocrity on the OL. We're not even getting that from the OL.
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I go back to the Bernie Kosar days. Kosar loved when a team would blitz, because it gave him single coverage on the outside somewhere. He would attack that single coverage down the field, and hit the receiver at his break so that he could take a medium pass and break it big.
Bernie Kosar had legitimate targets to throw the ball to. Are you seriously suggesting that these receivers compare? Or that Shurmur equates to Schottenheimer in coaching ability?
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McCoy does not do this. He cannot hit the medium passes to the outside with any consistency. He does not put the ball on the receivers at their breaks with any consistency at all. I can remember one throw to Greg Little a few games back, a slant, that was perfect. The ball was in Little's hands as soon as he hit his break. It was beautiful. It is also the only time I can remember seeing it. It stands out so clearly.
Then you aren't watching the games. Even the elite QBs don't hit every throw to their receivers. They do have incomplete passes too but with better receivers than what we have on this team. I'm one that supported (trusted Holmgren & Heckert) the selection of Greg Little and there were quite a few that criticized the pick. I'm here to say that they were right. Little is garbage! I don't care about the number of catches that he has. I'm concerned with the number of dropped passes that he has.
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McCoy's deep passes float. They wobble. They take all day to get to the receivers. The receivers have to slow down, or stop. I watch other offenses
How often have we thrown the ball down field? We don't have the weapons to go down field with passes and we run the WCO which relies heavily on timing and accurate route runners. We don't have the weapons for the WCO but we're trying to run it. That might be some of the reason why we're staring a 4-12 season in the face.
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...and they hit their receivers with far greater consistency.
They hit their receivers... not ours.
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They are able to attack the middle of the field effectively. They create big plays. McCoy is 8th in total passing attempts. He has 463 passes attempted. He has only 26 passes of 20+ yards. Before we attack the receivers ...... he had almost exactly the same receivers last year, and he had 23 such passes in only 222 pass attempts.
That tells me that Mangini & Daboll are better than Shurmur. If pressed to declare whether I thought that Mangini was better than Shurmur, it would be difficult to deny it.
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You say that play by the Brown has gotten worse over the years. Really? The OL has improved greatly.
How? When has the right side of the line ever been addressed? And prior to drafting Joe Thomas, the left side was never addressed either. Who knew that Eric Steinbach would mean so much to that OL unit? Can you honestly tell me that Lauvao and Pashos are better than what we've had there in the past? If you do then there isn't much for us to talk about regarding the OL.
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They are running the ball better.
Averaging 3.5 ypc for the season is better? If it wasn't for Ogbonnaya, the Browns would have been under 3 ypc against Putzburgh last Thursday.
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Their defense has had its ups and downs, but they have played decently in some games. They allow far far too many yards rushing ...... and their pass defense is not as good as their ranking ..... but they are far better than we had any right to expect when the season started, especially given the rookies, and complete change in scheme.
All defenses have ups and downs, but the Browns linebackers flat-out suck!
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You talk about competency. I agree that we lack competency at many positions. Where we disagree is that I feel that the QB is a leading factor in the problems this team is having, and you feel that it is a reactive factor, and that he struggles because of the team around him.
I think that the Browns suffer because of poor play by the offensive weapons that the Browns have and utilize. I'd like to see the offense use the TEs more as receiving threats, but apparently Shurmur has other ideas.
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I do agree that we have had far too many dropped passes, yet he has also had catches made for him by his receivers.
There have been a few great catches by the receiving corps, but that's what you should expect from them. McCoy should be able to trust his WRs to go up and get high balls or to make plays on imperfectly thrown passes. All QBS (even good ones) expect that their receivers will do it.
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It is much like INTs for a QB ..... he had had some dropped, actually, a lot dropped .... but in the end, he is what he is, and his numbers are what they are ..... and what his numbers say is that he is not a starter level QB.
Okay. In the end, it's what his numbers are. That applies to the receivers as well. And they lead the league in dropped passes. How many of those dropped passes would have been first downs or scores? How many of dropped passes were drive killers?
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I have laid out the things I see in depth. I have laid out my reasons for what I say in depth.
Yep, you have. So have I.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 06:53 AM
We play defenses. I know that's hard to believe, but we also play some defenses are damn good at stopping the run.
We are 13 games in. It is easy now to see who is good at what.
The Steelers allow 97 yard rushing per game on average. We ran for 98 yards.
The Ravens allow 85 yards/game. We ran for 59.
Cincinnati allows 100 per game. We ran for 134.
Jacksonville allows 110 per game,. We ran for 148.
St Louis allows 156 per game. We ran for 126.
Houston allows 91 yards rushing per game. We ran for 44.
San Francisco allows 70. We ran for 65.
Seattle allows 104. We ran for 141.
So in 5 of our last 8 games, we ran for more yards than the defenses allow on average. We were well behind in the Baltimore and Houston games, which stifled rushing opportunities. We weren't exactly shut down rushing against St Louis, but we did not rush for what the normally allow.
We are really not being destroyed in the run game. We are getting about what defense susually allow, except, of ourse, when we get way behind.
This OL has given nice pockets quite often over the past few games. Look at Baltimore. They are the very best pass rushing team in the NFL. They sacked Smith 9 times the week before they played us. They sacked the Colts QBs 4 times the week after they played us. They sacked McCoy 3 times. Nothing extraordinary there. The Steelers sacked him 3 times. Cincinnati sacked him twice. he is not under extraordinary pressure. He gets pressure on plays. He gets pressure when blitzed. There are also times where the line reacts beautifully, and even picks up overloads. This OL is about average for the NFL.
It will be interesting to see how Arizona does against our OL with a different QB. They have more sacks than San Francisco, Miami, Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, Seattle, Tennessee, and Indianapolis.
Teams that we have played, and with more sacks than Arizona are St Louis, Cincinnati, Houston, and Baltimore. Arizona has sacked the QB 10 times in the past 2 weeks.
You play the teams you play. Sometimes you face teams with tough pass rushes., You cannot just throw your hands up and go "Oh well, they pressured our QB so we just couldn't do anything." Tom Heckert said that QBs are going to get sacked. The implication is that they still have to make plays. McCoy is not making plays. People talk about Gabbert. He has 18 pass plays of 20+ yards in 330 attempts. McCoy has 26 in 443 attempts. They are similar quality QBs ... yet some people love one and disparage the other. One is a rookie, one is a guy with almost 2 years under his belt. Gabbert has (now) has 11 TD and 10 INT on the year. (12 starts) McCoy has 14 TD and 11 INT in 13 games. Gabbert has been sacked 38 times on the year in 352 attempts. . McCoy has been sacked 32 times in 13 games, and 463 pass attempts. They are similar QBs ..... except that Gabbert wasn't supposed to be ready this year ..... yet got thrown into the fire in his 2nd game. McCoy had half a season to watch and learn, then has had the 2nd season as undisputed starter.
I am not impressed.
No they don't. They have bad throws. They have dropped passes. They have tipped balls. We might have some problems with receivers, but the way you can judge a QB is how he throws the ball. Does he throw catchable passes? Does he put the ball in a position where the receiver can run with it after the catch? Does he make the receiver stop or slow down for a pass, or does he hit them in stride, or at their break. I see in McCoy a guy who is most comfortable with very short routes where the receiver is stationary. He is terrible on outs. I can remember one effectively thrown out this year. He is not hitting the seams. he throws short passes, and he does not throw them where receivers can make plays.
McCoy has completed 74% of his passes behind the line of scrimmage.
He completes 60% from 1-10 yards.
These are the "gimmes".
11-20, 44.6%
21-30, 55.6% (only 18 attempts)
31-40, 23.5%. (only 17 attempts)
41 and up he is 1 of 2.
I am trying to think of a comparable QB, and decided to look at Matt Moore.(and I decided on him without peeking ahead)
Behind the LOS: 81%
1-10 yards: 66.1%
11-20 yards: 58%
21-30 yards: 25% (5 of 20)
31-40 yards: 50% (5-50)
41+ yards: 0-4.
I think that I would take Moore.
Who else can I compare ...... Maybe Tavaris Jackson:
Behind the LOS: 71.4%
1-10 yards: 69.2%
11-20 yards: 53.6%
21-30 yards: 24% (6-25)
31-40 yards: 18.8% (3-16)
41+ yards: 25% 1-4
McCoy and Jackson are very similar QBs.
Are Matt Moore and Tavaris Jackson the QB you want to hitch your star to? I wouldn't want to.
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We have excellent receiving TEs and RBs. Comparing McCoy to the above QBs shows that we have rthrown the ball down the field 21+ yards 37 times. Moore has done so 44 times. Jackson has done so 45 times. Limited QBs don't throw the ball down the field, because they are not capable of doing so, and it is outside of their comfort zone.
The right side has improved over the course of the season. We have faced some quality pass rushes. We have done better than other teams have done blocking their pass rushes. NO QB will ever escape pressure. Some, like Rodgers, will have far superior pass blocking lines, but even he gets pressure from time to time. The difference is that he makes plays, and McCoy wilts.
If the QB does not have the ability to hit the TE down the seam, is that the coach's fault? The fact is that teams have figured out what McCoy can, and cannot do, and have adjusted to what he does. They know what he prefers to do. They know what his favorite passes and tendencies are. They have adjusted, and McCoy has been unable to adjust in turn.
We are 13 games in. It is easy now to see who is good at what.
The Steelers allow 97 yard rushing per game on average. We ran for 98 yards.
The Ravens allow 85 yards/game. We ran for 59.
Cincinnati allows 100 per game. We ran for 134.
Jacksonville allows 110 per game,. We ran for 148.
St Louis allows 156 per game. We ran for 126.
Houston allows 91 yards rushing per game. We ran for 44.
San Francisco allows 70. We ran for 65.
Seattle allows 104. We ran for 141.
So in 5 of our last 8 games, we ran for more yards than the defenses allow on average. We were well behind in the Baltimore and Houston games, which stifled rushing opportunities. We weren't exactly shut down rushing against St Louis, but we did not rush for what the normally allow.
We are really not being destroyed in the run game. We are getting about what defense susually allow, except, of ourse, when we get way behind.
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I'm not asking them to have all day to throw on every single play. At this point, I'd settle for mediocrity on the OL. We're not even getting that from the OL.
This OL has given nice pockets quite often over the past few games. Look at Baltimore. They are the very best pass rushing team in the NFL. They sacked Smith 9 times the week before they played us. They sacked the Colts QBs 4 times the week after they played us. They sacked McCoy 3 times. Nothing extraordinary there. The Steelers sacked him 3 times. Cincinnati sacked him twice. he is not under extraordinary pressure. He gets pressure on plays. He gets pressure when blitzed. There are also times where the line reacts beautifully, and even picks up overloads. This OL is about average for the NFL.
It will be interesting to see how Arizona does against our OL with a different QB. They have more sacks than San Francisco, Miami, Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, Seattle, Tennessee, and Indianapolis.
Teams that we have played, and with more sacks than Arizona are St Louis, Cincinnati, Houston, and Baltimore. Arizona has sacked the QB 10 times in the past 2 weeks.
You play the teams you play. Sometimes you face teams with tough pass rushes., You cannot just throw your hands up and go "Oh well, they pressured our QB so we just couldn't do anything." Tom Heckert said that QBs are going to get sacked. The implication is that they still have to make plays. McCoy is not making plays. People talk about Gabbert. He has 18 pass plays of 20+ yards in 330 attempts. McCoy has 26 in 443 attempts. They are similar quality QBs ... yet some people love one and disparage the other. One is a rookie, one is a guy with almost 2 years under his belt. Gabbert has (now) has 11 TD and 10 INT on the year. (12 starts) McCoy has 14 TD and 11 INT in 13 games. Gabbert has been sacked 38 times on the year in 352 attempts. . McCoy has been sacked 32 times in 13 games, and 463 pass attempts. They are similar QBs ..... except that Gabbert wasn't supposed to be ready this year ..... yet got thrown into the fire in his 2nd game. McCoy had half a season to watch and learn, then has had the 2nd season as undisputed starter.
I am not impressed.
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Even the elite QBs don't hit every throw to their receivers.
No they don't. They have bad throws. They have dropped passes. They have tipped balls. We might have some problems with receivers, but the way you can judge a QB is how he throws the ball. Does he throw catchable passes? Does he put the ball in a position where the receiver can run with it after the catch? Does he make the receiver stop or slow down for a pass, or does he hit them in stride, or at their break. I see in McCoy a guy who is most comfortable with very short routes where the receiver is stationary. He is terrible on outs. I can remember one effectively thrown out this year. He is not hitting the seams. he throws short passes, and he does not throw them where receivers can make plays.
McCoy has completed 74% of his passes behind the line of scrimmage.
He completes 60% from 1-10 yards.
These are the "gimmes".
11-20, 44.6%
21-30, 55.6% (only 18 attempts)
31-40, 23.5%. (only 17 attempts)
41 and up he is 1 of 2.
I am trying to think of a comparable QB, and decided to look at Matt Moore.(and I decided on him without peeking ahead)
Behind the LOS: 81%
1-10 yards: 66.1%
11-20 yards: 58%
21-30 yards: 25% (5 of 20)
31-40 yards: 50% (5-50)
41+ yards: 0-4.
I think that I would take Moore.
Who else can I compare ...... Maybe Tavaris Jackson:
Behind the LOS: 71.4%
1-10 yards: 69.2%
11-20 yards: 53.6%
21-30 yards: 24% (6-25)
31-40 yards: 18.8% (3-16)
41+ yards: 25% 1-4
McCoy and Jackson are very similar QBs.
Are Matt Moore and Tavaris Jackson the QB you want to hitch your star to? I wouldn't want to.
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How often have we thrown the ball down field? We don't have the weapons to go down field with passes and we run the WCO which relies heavily on timing and accurate route runners. We don't have the weapons for the WCO but we're trying to run it. That might be some of the reason why we're staring a 4-12 season in the face.
We have excellent receiving TEs and RBs. Comparing McCoy to the above QBs shows that we have rthrown the ball down the field 21+ yards 37 times. Moore has done so 44 times. Jackson has done so 45 times. Limited QBs don't throw the ball down the field, because they are not capable of doing so, and it is outside of their comfort zone.
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How? When has the right side of the line ever been addressed?
The right side has improved over the course of the season. We have faced some quality pass rushes. We have done better than other teams have done blocking their pass rushes. NO QB will ever escape pressure. Some, like Rodgers, will have far superior pass blocking lines, but even he gets pressure from time to time. The difference is that he makes plays, and McCoy wilts.
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I think that the Browns suffer because of poor play by the offensive weapons that the Browns have and utilize. I'd like to see the offense use the TEs more as receiving threats, but apparently Shurmur has other ideas.
If the QB does not have the ability to hit the TE down the seam, is that the coach's fault? The fact is that teams have figured out what McCoy can, and cannot do, and have adjusted to what he does. They know what he prefers to do. They know what his favorite passes and tendencies are. They have adjusted, and McCoy has been unable to adjust in turn.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 06:57 AM
One thing that I just saw and found rather surprising ......
McCoy is tied with another NFL QB in terms of being sacked. He has been sacked 32 times ...... same as ......... Aaron Rodgers. McCoy has been sacked 32 times in 463 pass attempts, and Rodgers 32 times in only 438 attempts.
McCoy is tied with another NFL QB in terms of being sacked. He has been sacked 32 times ...... same as ......... Aaron Rodgers. McCoy has been sacked 32 times in 463 pass attempts, and Rodgers 32 times in only 438 attempts.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 10:13 AM
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Another Hypothetical (for those in the "trade up for Luck" camp)
Assume we obtain the 6th and 25th pick - which Scenario do you prefer? (Going off the McShay Big board)
A: Trade #6, #25, 2013 1st Rounder for #1 Overall Pick
Sign Andrew Luck
B:
#6 - Matt Barkley
Trade #25, 2013 1st Round Pick for #10
10 - Justin Blackmon
C:
#6 - Justin Blackmon
Trade #25, 2013 1st round pick for #10
10 - RG3
In this scenario I'm getting people exactly where they are slotted (which is somewhat lucky) -- but my points is:
Is Luck a Justin Blackmon better than the next two QBs in the draft? Because that's what the extra first round picks are worth.
I do A or B...Both FIX our biggest problem...McCoy...
BUT...Barkley won't be there at 6 because either Miami or Washington would be at 4 or 5...
AND...Blackmon's gone at 2 or 3 to St Louis...
SO...Don't screw around and win one of these last 3 MEANINGLESS games...Take our lumps and end up at FOUR...We will then do our talkin' to Indy for Luck...If they don't wanna hear it we then SIT at 4 and listen for action at 2 or 3 from Miami and/or Washington...IF they r makin' noise we then make our move and secure Barkley...
Our consolation prize would be Blackmon...
Indy--Luck
Rams/Minny---One trades out with Washington or Miami for Barkley to get ahead of US...The other takes the Left Tackle...
Browns--Blackmon...
WE MUST GET THE 4 SPOT!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 11:59 AM
Quote:
One thing that I just saw and found rather surprising ......
McCoy is tied with another NFL QB in terms of being sacked. He has been sacked 32 times ...... same as ......... Aaron Rodgers. McCoy has been sacked 32 times in 463 pass attempts, and Rodgers 32 times in only 438 attempts.
That should tell you something right there. But, how many QB hits has Rodgers taken compared with Colt McCoy?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 12:04 PM
I will tell you what that tells us....it's that Rodgers gets sacked and then comes back the next play and still gets a 1st down and the drive going...with McCoy any false start penalty or sack and the drive is essentially over as a 3rd&10+ for him is like a 3rd&30 for other QBs....we often do not even try to convert them....remember the inside handoff to Obi vs PIT on 3rd&20?
To get back to the thread: I'm reading more and more that Blackmon isn't in the same class of AJ Green/Julio Jones...he reminds me more of Crabtree...still good but not as elite and not sure I'd spend a Top 5 pick on a perimeter player in that class...just get the best QB available
To get back to the thread: I'm reading more and more that Blackmon isn't in the same class of AJ Green/Julio Jones...he reminds me more of Crabtree...still good but not as elite and not sure I'd spend a Top 5 pick on a perimeter player in that class...just get the best QB available
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 12:21 PM
Quote:
I'm not asking them to have all day to throw on every single play. At this point, I'd settle for mediocrity on the OL. We're not even getting that from the OL.
Bull crap. The O-line is playing well this year. Our RT SUCKS, but the other four guys are doing a good job.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 12:23 PM
Graff...for reference purposes only, I'm posting your draft info from the other thread...
Also, the Falcons beat the Jags last night 41-14...the Falcons are now 9-5 and the Jags are 4-10.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part III [Re: Flap]
#878198 - 12/13/11 02:45 PM
I can't post my normal spread sheet of the updated draft order this week b/c my laptop is dead at the moment....but here is the text version of the current draft order.
Any differing orders are either incorrect, or they are including the rest of the teams opponents into their strength of schedule even though they haven't actually played them yet. My list only includes those opponents whom each team has actually played to this point. So it's literally a "if the season ended today" draft order.
Without further ado...
Pos/Team/Record/SoS
1. Indianapolis Colts 0-13 .5503
2. St Louis Rams 2-11 .5562
3. Minnesota Vikings 2-11 .5740
4. Carolina Panthers 4-9 .4793 (Conf% tie-breaker)
5. Washington Redskins 4-9 .4793
6. Cleveland Browns 4-9 .4970
7. Miami Dolphins 4-9 .5089
8. Jacksonville Jaguars 4-9 .5325
9. Tampa Bay Bucs 4-9 .5503
10. Kansas City Chiefs 5-8 .4793
11. Philadelphia Eagles 5-8 .4911
12. Buffalo Bills 5-8 .5030
13. Arizona Cardinals 6-7 .4675
14. Seattle Seahawks 6-7 .4852
15. San Diego Chargers 6-7 .5089
16. Dallas Cowboys 7-6 .4675
17. Tennessee Titans 7-6 .4970
18. Cincinnati Bengals 7-6 .5207 (Div% tie-breaker)
19. Chicago Bears 7-6 .5207
20. Cincinnati Bengals (from OAK) 7-6 .5325
21. New York Giants 7-6 .5148 *
22. Cleveland Browns (from ATL) 8-5 .4734 *
23. New York Jets 8-5 .5030 *
24. Detroit Lions 8-5 .5148 (Conf% tie-breaker) *
25. Denver Broncos 8-5 .5148 *
26t. San Francisco 49ers 10-3 .4497 (coin flip) *
26t. New England Patriots 10-3 .4497 (coin flip) *
28. New Orleans Saints 10-3 .4615 *
29. Houston Texans 10-3 .4675 *
30. Baltimore Ravens 10-3 .4970 *
31. Pittsburgh Steelers 10-3 .5089 *
32. Green Bay Packers 13-0 .4438 *
* - Projected playoff team, actual order to be determined from playoffs
Also, the Falcons beat the Jags last night 41-14...the Falcons are now 9-5 and the Jags are 4-10.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part III [Re: Flap]
#878198 - 12/13/11 02:45 PM
I can't post my normal spread sheet of the updated draft order this week b/c my laptop is dead at the moment....but here is the text version of the current draft order.
Any differing orders are either incorrect, or they are including the rest of the teams opponents into their strength of schedule even though they haven't actually played them yet. My list only includes those opponents whom each team has actually played to this point. So it's literally a "if the season ended today" draft order.
Without further ado...
Pos/Team/Record/SoS
1. Indianapolis Colts 0-13 .5503
2. St Louis Rams 2-11 .5562
3. Minnesota Vikings 2-11 .5740
4. Carolina Panthers 4-9 .4793 (Conf% tie-breaker)
5. Washington Redskins 4-9 .4793
6. Cleveland Browns 4-9 .4970
7. Miami Dolphins 4-9 .5089
8. Jacksonville Jaguars 4-9 .5325
9. Tampa Bay Bucs 4-9 .5503
10. Kansas City Chiefs 5-8 .4793
11. Philadelphia Eagles 5-8 .4911
12. Buffalo Bills 5-8 .5030
13. Arizona Cardinals 6-7 .4675
14. Seattle Seahawks 6-7 .4852
15. San Diego Chargers 6-7 .5089
16. Dallas Cowboys 7-6 .4675
17. Tennessee Titans 7-6 .4970
18. Cincinnati Bengals 7-6 .5207 (Div% tie-breaker)
19. Chicago Bears 7-6 .5207
20. Cincinnati Bengals (from OAK) 7-6 .5325
21. New York Giants 7-6 .5148 *
22. Cleveland Browns (from ATL) 8-5 .4734 *
23. New York Jets 8-5 .5030 *
24. Detroit Lions 8-5 .5148 (Conf% tie-breaker) *
25. Denver Broncos 8-5 .5148 *
26t. San Francisco 49ers 10-3 .4497 (coin flip) *
26t. New England Patriots 10-3 .4497 (coin flip) *
28. New Orleans Saints 10-3 .4615 *
29. Houston Texans 10-3 .4675 *
30. Baltimore Ravens 10-3 .4970 *
31. Pittsburgh Steelers 10-3 .5089 *
32. Green Bay Packers 13-0 .4438 *
* - Projected playoff team, actual order to be determined from playoffs
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 12:30 PM
Are the PIT and BAL records factored in twice? or will it be added AFTER we play them the 2nd time? Not sure how the SOS math works....we could fall behind some teams even if we don't win since we play those 2 .750+ teams
If we win even 1 game we could fall back to 10+...so I'm sure we'll manage to win 1...we always win those late season crapfests
If we win even 1 game we could fall back to 10+...so I'm sure we'll manage to win 1...we always win those late season crapfests
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 12:54 PM
DJ...any questions you might have concerning the info would be best answered by Graff...I simply went back to the old thread and copied his last update and posted it here for info purposes.
I do agree, winning games now will drive the Browns down the draft board and could dramatically change the teams draft strategy.
I do agree, winning games now will drive the Browns down the draft board and could dramatically change the teams draft strategy.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 01:42 PM
That's a good question, I would think they do, no?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 02:11 PM
Quote:
The Steelers allow 97 yard rushing per game on average. We ran for 98 yards.
The Ravens allow 85 yards/game. We ran for 59.
Cincinnati allows 100 per game. We ran for 134.
Jacksonville allows 110 per game,. We ran for 148.
St Louis allows 156 per game. We ran for 126.
Houston allows 91 yards rushing per game. We ran for 44.
San Francisco allows 70. We ran for 65.
Seattle allows 104. We ran for 141.
So in 5 of our last 8 games, we ran for more yards than the defenses allow on average.
The Steelers allow 179 yard passing per game on average. We threw for 209 yards.
The Ravens allow 192 yards/game. We threw for 192.
Cincinnati allows 214 per game. We threw for 151.
Jacksonville allows 196 per game. We threw for 199.
St Louis allows 208 per game. We threw for 218.
Houston allows 183 yards per game. We threw for 146.
San Francisco allows 234. We threw for 241.
Seattle allows 230. We threw for 178.
So in 5 of our last 8 games, we THREW for more yards than the defenses allow on average. Yet our running game is solid and our passing game is awful.. go figure.
Quote:
People talk about Gabbert. He has 18 pass plays of 20+ yards in 330 attempts. McCoy has 26 in 443 attempts. They are similar quality QBs ... yet some people love one and disparage the other. One is a rookie, one is a guy with almost 2 years under his belt. Gabbert has (now) has 11 TD and 10 INT on the year. (12 starts) McCoy has 14 TD and 11 INT in 13 games. Gabbert has been sacked 38 times on the year in 352 attempts. . McCoy has been sacked 32 times in 13 games, and 463 pass attempts. They are similar QBs ..... except that Gabbert wasn't supposed to be ready this year ..... yet got thrown into the fire in his 2nd game. McCoy had half a season to watch and learn, then has had the 2nd season as undisputed starter.
LOL.. Gabbert was the 10th pick overall.. Colt was a third round pick who, after his first year, had the entire coaching staff change and a whole new system brought in.. but Colt has what, 8 more NFL starts in a system different than the one he is running now.. .so yea, I can see where Colt should be lightyears ahead of him..
Quote:
We have excellent receiving TEs and RBs. Comparing McCoy to the above QBs shows that we have rthrown the ball down the field 21+ yards 37 times. Moore has done so 44 times. Jackson has done so 45 times. Limited QBs don't throw the ball down the field, because they are not capable of doing so, and it is outside of their comfort zone.
If your best receiving options are your TEs and RBs, doesn't it sort of make sense that you don't throw the ball down the field as much? It's like you are contradicting your own argument.
Quote:
Some, like Rodgers, will have far superior pass blocking lines, but even he gets pressure from time to time. The difference is that he makes plays, and McCoy wilts.
Why don't you compare any of our other positions to the undisputed best player in the game? Let's compare our 3rd round draft pick QB in his second year in the league and his first year in a new system to Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees in their prime and use it to prove that Colt sucks because he can't do the things they do...
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 03:07 PM
Quote:
@YTown:Quote:
Now, let me ask you a question. Do you honestly see Colt McCoy, no matter what we can realistically put around him, as a Super Bowl quality QB?
I don't see any reason why he couldn't be.
Then you haven't been watching.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 03:13 PM
Our winning days are over.
@Arizona - We're a 6.5 point underdog.
@Baltimore - Probably lose by 3 TD's.
Pittsburgh - Probably lose by 2 TD's.
We're gonna finish 4-12.
We need Miami and Washington to win another game.
Miami gets Buffalo this week, then the Patriots and Jets. We need to root for Miami hard this week.
Washington get Giants (who knows which Giants team will show up), Minnesota (this is the game we need), and Philly (again, who knows)
@Arizona - We're a 6.5 point underdog.
@Baltimore - Probably lose by 3 TD's.
Pittsburgh - Probably lose by 2 TD's.
We're gonna finish 4-12.
We need Miami and Washington to win another game.
Miami gets Buffalo this week, then the Patriots and Jets. We need to root for Miami hard this week.
Washington get Giants (who knows which Giants team will show up), Minnesota (this is the game we need), and Philly (again, who knows)
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 03:16 PM
If we can get up to the #4 spot behind Indianapolis, St. Louis, Minnesota, we're going to get our Quarterback. Barkley? 
Also, getting into the to 4 could help us make a move for Luck. Think about this ...
If Indy decides they can't draft Luck and keep both him and Manning on the roster, but they're also not ready to cut ties with Manning ...
They could be tempted to keep Manning and trade down, and STILL take a Quarterback, but one that would be okay with the "Aaron Rodgers treatment"
They trade back to us at #4, grab a QB of the future in Barkley, he sits behind Manning for a few years, and they pick up extra picks.
Also, getting into the to 4 could help us make a move for Luck. Think about this ...
If Indy decides they can't draft Luck and keep both him and Manning on the roster, but they're also not ready to cut ties with Manning ...
They could be tempted to keep Manning and trade down, and STILL take a Quarterback, but one that would be okay with the "Aaron Rodgers treatment"
They trade back to us at #4, grab a QB of the future in Barkley, he sits behind Manning for a few years, and they pick up extra picks.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 03:22 PM
And hopefully dropping them from #1 to #4 won't cost so much.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 03:23 PM
Quote:
Are the PIT and BAL records factored in twice? or will it be added AFTER we play them the 2nd time? Not sure how the SOS math works....we could fall behind some teams even if we don't win since we play those 2 .750+ teams
If we win even 1 game we could fall back to 10+...so I'm sure we'll manage to win 1...we always win those late season crapfests
I think opponent's pct are factored in once the game is complete. So Balt and Pitt in there once each right now.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 05:33 PM
Quote:
I will tell you what that tells us....it's that Rodgers gets sacked and then comes back the next play and still gets a 1st down and the drive going...with McCoy any false start penalty or sack and the drive is essentially over as a 3rd&10+ for him is like a 3rd&30 for other QBs....we often do not even try to convert them....remember the inside handoff to Obi vs PIT on 3rd&20?
Are you seriously comparing our WR corps to that of the Packers? It's not even as good as Miami's or the Bills or Kansas City.
Hells Bells! If you want to go comparing fruit, you're not even using apples and oranges. You're using grapes and watermelons!
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 05:34 PM
Quote:Quote:
@YTown:Quote:
Now, let me ask you a question. Do you honestly see Colt McCoy, no matter what we can realistically put around him, as a Super Bowl quality QB?
I don't see any reason why he couldn't be.
Then you haven't been watching.
...or I've been seeing things you haven't.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 05:36 PM
Quote:Quote:
I'm not asking them to have all day to throw on every single play. At this point, I'd settle for mediocrity on the OL. We're not even getting that from the OL.
Bull crap. The O-line is playing well this year. Our RT SUCKS, but the other four guys are doing a good job.
Lauvao is complete garbage! He's being outplayed by Pinkston. To be fair, that might be because Pinkston is playing between Thomas and Mack and not between Mack and Pashos.
I can't type on this website what I have to say about Pashos.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 05:40 PM
Agreed on Pashos, but Lauvao is playing well this year. He is playing better than Mack.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 05:43 PM
Quote:
Agreed on Pashos, but Lauvao is playing well this year. He is playing better than Mack.
Mack's play has suffered a bit. You can tell that he misses Steinbach between him and Thomas but in my estimation, saying that Lauvao is playing well this year (essentially his rookie season) is a bit of an exaggeration.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 05:46 PM
I would bet that we have the same LT-RG next season ..... with a different RT in the mix. (If I were a betting man)
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 05:47 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
@YTown:Quote:
Now, let me ask you a question. Do you honestly see Colt McCoy, no matter what we can realistically put around him, as a Super Bowl quality QB?
I don't see any reason why he couldn't be.
Then you haven't been watching.
...or I've been seeing things you haven't.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 05:55 PM
I don't think we're signing Sam Hurd.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 06:43 PM
Quote:
I don't think we're signing Sam Hurd.
I think that the Texas Penal League has drafted him already.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 07:39 PM
Quote:Horsefeathers.
Agreed on Pashos, but Lauvao is playing well this year. He is playing better than Mack.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 07:50 PM
Thanks for posting that mac.
Some people have had an issue with how I calculate the SoS. As I said with all my lists previous, I calculated SoS based on whom you had actually played to date but did not include future games. Since we're so late into the season I decided to go ahead and add in the opponents records for the rest of the year for all teams.
I've also explicitly shown the two 1st round trades (ATL to CLE and OAK to CIN), I've included last nights ATL-JAX game results as well and finally I've put the current playoff teams in the final 12 spots (actual order determined by playoff results).
So, again as of RIGHT NOW....with updated full year SoS rankings...here is the current 2012 draft standings:
Pittsburgh and Baltimore KILL our SoS.....just having them in our division and playing them 4 games a year costs us 4 spots in the draft at least.
Some people have had an issue with how I calculate the SoS. As I said with all my lists previous, I calculated SoS based on whom you had actually played to date but did not include future games. Since we're so late into the season I decided to go ahead and add in the opponents records for the rest of the year for all teams.
I've also explicitly shown the two 1st round trades (ATL to CLE and OAK to CIN), I've included last nights ATL-JAX game results as well and finally I've put the current playoff teams in the final 12 spots (actual order determined by playoff results).
So, again as of RIGHT NOW....with updated full year SoS rankings...here is the current 2012 draft standings:
Pittsburgh and Baltimore KILL our SoS.....just having them in our division and playing them 4 games a year costs us 4 spots in the draft at least.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 08:00 PM
Quote:
.just having them in our division and playing them 4 games a year costs us 4 spots in the draft at least.
I would say that by assuring us 3-4 losses per season they actually improve our draft spot.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 08:03 PM
Sure, but then we lose those 3-4 draft spots right back again since our SoS is so high.
So we get 4 losses a year without much of any reward at the end of the year.
Haven't you ever wondered why, since the return, we suck every year but we never seem to end up with a top 5 pick? In fact I just went back and looked it up...since our 3 year stretch of infancy from 99-01 we've had exactly 2 top 5 picks.
Braylon at #3 in '05 and JT at #3 in '07.
Shoot we've only had 4 top 10 picks! The above two plus Winslow at #6 in '04 and Haden at #7 in '10. Next highest was Wimbley at #13 in '06.
That's just not enough top end talent...especially when 3/5 of them aren't on the team anymore.
So we get 4 losses a year without much of any reward at the end of the year.
Haven't you ever wondered why, since the return, we suck every year but we never seem to end up with a top 5 pick? In fact I just went back and looked it up...since our 3 year stretch of infancy from 99-01 we've had exactly 2 top 5 picks.
Braylon at #3 in '05 and JT at #3 in '07.
Shoot we've only had 4 top 10 picks! The above two plus Winslow at #6 in '04 and Haden at #7 in '10. Next highest was Wimbley at #13 in '06.
That's just not enough top end talent...especially when 3/5 of them aren't on the team anymore.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 08:30 PM
Slots 1-3 are pretty much locked up. Indy has 0 wins, STL and MIN have 2 wins each. None of those teams are going on a 3-game winning streak. Everyone above them has at least 4 wins. Looking at the remaining 3 weeks, here are the remaining games for the 4-win teams:
Code:
Wash and Miami are basically shoe-ins to take QBs, as they needed them last year and didn't draft them since the choices were so terrible.
Hopefully Wash "wins" at home over MIN or at Philly in a divisional game against a completely mailed-in PHI team. Grossman will be working his butt off to not get replaced in those two games.
I fully expect JAX to lose at home to Indy. IND will have clinched #1 pick, the players won't want to be in the books with the Lions, and Gabbert will still suck. JAX has nothing to play for. Best chance is they get fired up for their rivals against TEN and Locker makes rookie mistakes.
The TB/CAR game could go either way. I can't understand either of those two teams. It seems like they CAR plays well enough every week but at the end of the game they look bad. TB is underperforming as much as anyone outside of Philly this year... or did they just vastly overperform last year? Don't rule out a victory over NO to close out the season for CAR, especially if NO has sewn up the #2 seed.
MIA I don't think will win another game. Not because they can't, but I believe they have a mandate to lose. I think they were just waiting for a single loss to fire Sparano once he started winning. Their entire season has been predicated around losing and Sparano/Matt Moore didn't follow the script. I'm sure the new HC has been "encouraged" to "see what they have in the young guys."
I still think we'll beat AZ. Especially with Wallace in there. I'd love to see victories over BAL AND PIT, but obviously it's not likely, especially with the two battling it out for home field advantage v. a wild card.
TB, in all likelihood, will lose out. They usually make division games interesting, but I think Newton will beat them and ATL is still trying to secure their playoff positioning.
I think WAS gets to 5 wins, CAR gets to 5 or 6 wins, JAX, MIA, TB lose out. There will be quite the logjam of teams with 5 wins when it comes to be draft time.
Code:
WAS @ NYG MIN @ PHI
JAX @ ATL @ TEN IND
CAR @ HOU TB @ NO
MIA @ BUF @ NE NYJ
CLE @ AZ @ BAL PIT
TB DAL @ CAR @ ATL
Wash and Miami are basically shoe-ins to take QBs, as they needed them last year and didn't draft them since the choices were so terrible.
Hopefully Wash "wins" at home over MIN or at Philly in a divisional game against a completely mailed-in PHI team. Grossman will be working his butt off to not get replaced in those two games.
I fully expect JAX to lose at home to Indy. IND will have clinched #1 pick, the players won't want to be in the books with the Lions, and Gabbert will still suck. JAX has nothing to play for. Best chance is they get fired up for their rivals against TEN and Locker makes rookie mistakes.
The TB/CAR game could go either way. I can't understand either of those two teams. It seems like they CAR plays well enough every week but at the end of the game they look bad. TB is underperforming as much as anyone outside of Philly this year... or did they just vastly overperform last year? Don't rule out a victory over NO to close out the season for CAR, especially if NO has sewn up the #2 seed.
MIA I don't think will win another game. Not because they can't, but I believe they have a mandate to lose. I think they were just waiting for a single loss to fire Sparano once he started winning. Their entire season has been predicated around losing and Sparano/Matt Moore didn't follow the script. I'm sure the new HC has been "encouraged" to "see what they have in the young guys."
I still think we'll beat AZ. Especially with Wallace in there. I'd love to see victories over BAL AND PIT, but obviously it's not likely, especially with the two battling it out for home field advantage v. a wild card.
TB, in all likelihood, will lose out. They usually make division games interesting, but I think Newton will beat them and ATL is still trying to secure their playoff positioning.
I think WAS gets to 5 wins, CAR gets to 5 or 6 wins, JAX, MIA, TB lose out. There will be quite the logjam of teams with 5 wins when it comes to be draft time.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 08:31 PM
Quote:
Sure, but then we lose those 3-4 draft spots right back again since our SoS is so high.
So we get 4 losses a year without much of any reward at the end of the year.
Haven't you ever wondered why, since the return, we suck every year but we never seem to end up with a top 5 pick? In fact I just went back and looked it up...since our 3 year stretch of infancy from 99-01 we've had exactly 2 top 5 picks.
Braylon at #3 in '05 and JT at #3 in '07.
Shoot we've only had 4 top 10 picks! The above two plus Winslow at #6 in '04 and Haden at #7 in '10. Next highest was Wimbley at #13 in '06.
That's just not enough top end talent...especially when 3/5 of them aren't on the team anymore.
How many top ten picks have the ravens/steelers had in that time?
The key to being a good football team is not in getting many top ten picks.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 08:33 PM
what about trading out of #5 and #6?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/16/11 08:33 PM
i'd like to note that Philly has tiebreakers over BOTH NYG and Dallas.
so, if you want them to mail-in wk17, then you need them to either lose in the next 2 weeks or NYG/DAL to both win the next 2 weeks.
so, if you want them to mail-in wk17, then you need them to either lose in the next 2 weeks or NYG/DAL to both win the next 2 weeks.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 12:29 AM
Quote:
I would bet that we have the same LT-RG next season ..... with a different RT in the mix. (If I were a betting man)
So, you don't think that Steinbach will be back in the line-up with Pinkston replacing him and you think Lauvao will be back at RG?
You might be right. I think replacing Lauvao is necessary for OL improvement just as much as replacing Pashos at RT.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 12:33 AM
Why not put the current teams in the playoffs based upon their seeds. Houston would be getting the #31 selection, not Putzburgh and there would be several other changes too.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 12:49 AM
I don't see them moving Steinbach back into the starting role at 32. (?) There is no future there.
I think that they want to develop this young line into a power in a couple of years ..... if not sooner.
I think that they want to develop this young line into a power in a couple of years ..... if not sooner.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 01:39 AM
Quote:
I don't see them moving Steinbach back into the starting role at 32. (?) There is no future there.
I think that they want to develop this young line into a power in a couple of years ..... if not sooner.
Maybe you're right, but I don't think that Steinbach back at LG hurts us. It would improve the OL if he were in there. Maybe getting the young players some experience would be a good idea, but I still think we need a replacement for Lauvao.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 02:31 AM
Quote:
Why not put the current teams in the playoffs based upon their seeds. Houston would be getting the #31 selection, not Putzburgh and there would be several other changes too.
Because that portion will all shake itself out based on the playoff game results anyway. Seeding really doesn't matter at all at this point.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 03:46 AM
Quote:Quote:
I don't see them moving Steinbach back into the starting role at 32. (?) There is no future there.
I think that they want to develop this young line into a power in a couple of years ..... if not sooner.
Maybe you're right, but I don't think that Steinbach back at LG hurts us. It would improve the OL if he were in there. Maybe getting the young players some experience would be a good idea, but I still think we need a replacement for Lauvao.
Lauvoa has gotten somewhat better as the year has gone on. He's not perfect by any stretch, but he is improving. That's what coaches and front offices want to see.
What does reinserting Steinbach for a year do for the line? (if he is even able to come all the way back?) Steinbach had back surgery. That isn't some 100% certain proposition to start with. He's going to be 32 next year. That's getting up there for a football player. He will be very expensive.
I think that he can still help a team, but I question whether or not the front office will have any great desire to blow up the OL to reinsert a 32 year old guy coming off back surgery unless they have to. Further, the only revolving door this year has been at RT. I'm sure that they are looking forward to finding a young RT and having the same OL work together for a couple of years, and grow together for a couple of years. (hopefully)
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 04:13 AM
No suggestions here just looking for some thoughts from you guys.
Let's presume Steiny comes back healthy. Is there any way he replaces Pashos and we keep the current other 4 either:
1 - as the new RT
2 - returns to LG and Pinkston moves to RT
3 - returns to LG, Pinkston moves to RG, Lauvao moves to RT
Let's presume Steiny comes back healthy. Is there any way he replaces Pashos and we keep the current other 4 either:
1 - as the new RT
2 - returns to LG and Pinkston moves to RT
3 - returns to LG, Pinkston moves to RG, Lauvao moves to RT
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 04:29 AM
I opined that Steinbach might fit in at RT for a year, depending on what other moves they make.
I just do not see them making changes on the rest of the line.
I just do not see them making changes on the rest of the line.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 08:29 AM
Quote:
I don't see them moving Steinbach back into the starting role at 32. (?) There is no future there.
I think that they want to develop this young line into a power in a couple of years ..... if not sooner.
Hard to say with Steiny.
On the surface, he's very much more suited to the WCO than some of the things we've done in the past, and if he's back from injury, he's probably still viewed as a solid starter.
The flipside is that his cap number is going to be over $7 million, and he is coming back from injury.
The final factor in deciding if he's going to be back may be how far the Browns are willing to go in free agency and the draft. If we cut him, we'll need at least two upgrades, and potentially three. I'm not as enamored with Pinky as some are. He still looks like a backup to me, at least for the near future. It would also be wise to consider that Lerner operates with a budget, so bringing back a 32-year old player coming off of injury and making $6 million may not be worth it.
We could really go either way with him, but If you put a gun to my head and told me to make a prediction, I'd say they'd bring him back to start. There's zero chance he's back as a reserve.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 04:06 PM
Quote:Quote:
Why not put the current teams in the playoffs based upon their seeds. Houston would be getting the #31 selection, not Putzburgh and there would be several other changes too.
Because that portion will all shake itself out based on the playoff game results anyway. Seeding really doesn't matter at all at this point.
But it's deceptive and as it stands now, if Putzburgh were playing against Denver, I seriously doubt that they'd get out of there with a win.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 04:15 PM
You sound like you think 32 is old? OL often play well into their mid-30's, and Steinbach is our second best OL guy. I recall reading when the Browns signed him that not only was he an All-Pro guard, he would immediately become the second best LT on the team. At best, you have a rock solid left side from LT to C. At worst, you're keeping quality depth in case Joe T goes down.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 04:20 PM
It really depends on where Steinbach is injury wise (something none of us know)
I can't really see him sticking at $7million/year - I think he would have to take a sizable paycut.
If he isn't willing, I'd much rather cut him, and then pay a guy like a Carl Nicks 5year $50 million - you'd get a better player who could contribute over a longer term.
I can't really see him sticking at $7million/year - I think he would have to take a sizable paycut.
If he isn't willing, I'd much rather cut him, and then pay a guy like a Carl Nicks 5year $50 million - you'd get a better player who could contribute over a longer term.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 04:36 PM
Quote:
Lauvoa has gotten somewhat better as the year has gone on. He's not perfect by any stretch, but he is improving. That's what coaches and front offices want to see.
I'm not convinced of that, but let's say your right and that Lauvao has improved. Replacing him with someone like DeCastro would clear up the problems at G for a long while and Lauvao can be used as depth.
Quote:
What does reinserting Steinbach for a year do for the line? (if he is even able to come all the way back?) Steinbach had back surgery. That isn't some 100% certain proposition to start with. He's going to be 32 next year. That's getting up there for a football player. He will be very expensive.
If Steinbach doesn't come back, drafting a G is even more important and Pinkston has been doing a nice job as Steinbach's replacement.
Quote:
I think that he can still help a team, but I question whether or not the front office will have any great desire to blow up the OL to reinsert a 32 year old guy coming off back surgery unless they have to.
A 32 year old OL isn't all that old and could well have several years of productive service to remain.
Quote:
Further, the only revolving door this year has been at RT. I'm sure that they are looking forward to finding a young RT and having the same OL work together for a couple of years, and grow together for a couple of years. (hopefully)
I don't disagree about the RT being referred to as a revolving door (although that's an insult to revolving doors). I would add a RG to the mix because taken as a pair, they're sliding doors, opening up holes for the defense to run through.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 04:44 PM
Quote:
You sound like you think 32 is old? OL often play well into their mid-30's, and Steinbach is our second best OL guy. I recall reading when the Browns signed him that not only was he an All-Pro guard, he would immediately become the second best LT on the team. At best, you have a rock solid left side from LT to C. At worst, you're keeping quality depth in case Joe T goes down.
However, for whatever reason, the Browns have looked at replacement types for him for a couple of years now in pre-season. He is the one player who has been sat down while others work in his spot.
I think that the Browns like the current, young LT-RG alignment, and want it to grow together, and that may leave Steinbach out. That's my bet ...... if I were a betting man. Steinbach is set to make over $12 million over the next 2 years. I just don't see them bringing him back for that price tag, coming off back surgery, and at his age. Too many factors working against him IMHO.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 05:05 PM
My problem is that I'm not on board with Heckerts talent evaluations for THIS team..
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 07:24 PM
We have so many holes to fill that cutting a guy like Steinbach - even at his salary - would be silly.
Yeah...he's 32...and just got a full year to recover. He's still got the feet/skills to pull and we just moved to a scheme that should fit him.
I pencil him in at LG for another two years...Lavauo and Pinkston can fight it out for RG - unless we get DeCastro and/or Pinkston competes with the new RT.
Thomas-Steiny-Mack-DeCastro-WSU Willie
If we upgrade the short, fat guy at RT, we could be tough.
Yeah...he's 32...and just got a full year to recover. He's still got the feet/skills to pull and we just moved to a scheme that should fit him.
I pencil him in at LG for another two years...Lavauo and Pinkston can fight it out for RG - unless we get DeCastro
and/or Pinkston competes with the new RT.Thomas-Steiny-Mack-DeCastro-WSU Willie
If we upgrade the short, fat guy at RT, we could be tough.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 07:54 PM
We'll see what happens. My gut tells me that Steinbach has played his last for the Browns.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 07:56 PM
Quote:
We'll see what happens. My gut tells me that Steinbach has played his last for the Browns.
Really? I thought I read somewhere that he is already back at the facility working out, recovery has gone better than expected. Would be a huge loss if we don't get him back. Pinkston hasn't been horrible, but Steinbach was considered one of the better as his position.
I understand the youth movement with this team and everything, but it would be a crushing loss.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 08:44 PM
Perhaps.
I just found this:
http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=294
Steinbach Works Out
Dec 15, 2011 -- 1:00pm
By Will Burge
Coming into the 2011 season, the Browns’ offensive line was regarded as one of, if not the best in football. Billy Yates retiring hurt the depth of the line but no injury changed the dynamic in the trenches more than Eric Steinbach’s season ending back injury.
Some people had speculated that Steinbach may consider retirement after such a major surgery. The operation removed a loose, unattached bone fragment wedge on the spinal cord nerves.
As serious as that surgery was, it seems as though Steinbach is trying to work his way back into the fold for the 2012 Cleveland Browns’ season.
A source close to the situation told me that at the very same time the Browns were warming up on Heinz Field in Pittsburgh last Thursday, Steinbach was working out with strength and conditioning coaches in the field house in Berea.
The source said Steinbach was pulling sleds, doing core training, and some light jogging.
This doesn’t seem like the craziest workout known to man but considering Eric had major back surgery less than four months ago, it bodes well for his return to the football field.
If Steinbach is healthy in 2012 it would be a huge boost to the Browns’ offensive line. He would most likely assume the starting left guard position which would allow the Browns to move Pinkston to right tackle, where they originally envisioned him playing.
I just found this:
http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=294
Steinbach Works Out
Dec 15, 2011 -- 1:00pm
By Will Burge
Coming into the 2011 season, the Browns’ offensive line was regarded as one of, if not the best in football. Billy Yates retiring hurt the depth of the line but no injury changed the dynamic in the trenches more than Eric Steinbach’s season ending back injury.
Some people had speculated that Steinbach may consider retirement after such a major surgery. The operation removed a loose, unattached bone fragment wedge on the spinal cord nerves.
As serious as that surgery was, it seems as though Steinbach is trying to work his way back into the fold for the 2012 Cleveland Browns’ season.
A source close to the situation told me that at the very same time the Browns were warming up on Heinz Field in Pittsburgh last Thursday, Steinbach was working out with strength and conditioning coaches in the field house in Berea.
The source said Steinbach was pulling sleds, doing core training, and some light jogging.
This doesn’t seem like the craziest workout known to man but considering Eric had major back surgery less than four months ago, it bodes well for his return to the football field.
If Steinbach is healthy in 2012 it would be a huge boost to the Browns’ offensive line. He would most likely assume the starting left guard position which would allow the Browns to move Pinkston to right tackle, where they originally envisioned him playing.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/17/11 08:50 PM
I could definitely see Steinbach back with the Browns next year, but he would have to take a pay cut. Nobody is paying him $6million+ next year, for the reasons you mentioned.
That's just how the NFL works.
That's just how the NFL works.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 12:56 AM
Quote:
Perhaps.
I just found this:
http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=294
Steinbach Works Out
Dec 15, 2011 -- 1:00pm
By Will Burge
Coming into the 2011 season, the Browns’ offensive line was regarded as one of, if not the best in football. Billy Yates retiring hurt the depth of the line but no injury changed the dynamic in the trenches more than Eric Steinbach’s season ending back injury.
Some people had speculated that Steinbach may consider retirement after such a major surgery. The operation removed a loose, unattached bone fragment wedge on the spinal cord nerves.
As serious as that surgery was, it seems as though Steinbach is trying to work his way back into the fold for the 2012 Cleveland Browns’ season.
A source close to the situation told me that at the very same time the Browns were warming up on Heinz Field in Pittsburgh last Thursday, Steinbach was working out with strength and conditioning coaches in the field house in Berea.
The source said Steinbach was pulling sleds, doing core training, and some light jogging.
This doesn’t seem like the craziest workout known to man but considering Eric had major back surgery less than four months ago, it bodes well for his return to the football field.
If Steinbach is healthy in 2012 it would be a huge boost to the Browns’ offensive line. He would most likely assume the starting left guard position which would allow the Browns to move Pinkston to right tackle, where they originally envisioned him playing.
Interesting comment about Pinkston. I think this year's experience will help him next year if the Browns do indeed move him out to the RT spot.
If the Browns can get DeCastro, I would still take him. Lauvao isn't the answer at RG.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 02:31 AM
Ryan Lindley is very impressive
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 11:59 AM
If you're looking to draft someone to be a back-up, it's okay. I like his height/size.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 12:44 PM
with an offense as putrid as ours.. and a defense that has quite a few holes.. why would anyone want to invest a first round pick on a Guard? I'm not understanding that.
I can see getting a tackle in the first to put at RT.. still debatable, but I'd do that over getting a guard.
I can see getting a tackle in the first to put at RT.. still debatable, but I'd do that over getting a guard.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 12:59 PM
Quote:
with an offense as putrid as ours.. and a defense that has quite a few holes.. why would anyone want to invest a first round pick on a Guard? I'm not understanding that.
Because DeCastro is the best OL in this draft (yes, and I include Matt Kalil in that assessment) and we need a quality guard on the right side. We also need a quality RT, but we can't run the ball inside worth a damn.
Quote:
I can see getting a tackle in the first to put at RT.. still debatable, but I'd do that over getting a guard.
I would almost never take a RT in the first round unless my QB was a southpaw thrower.
I like Levy Adcock or Nate Potter in the third round.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 05:52 PM
Quote:
If Steinbach is healthy in 2012 it would be a huge boost to the Browns’ offensive line. He would most likely assume the starting left guard position which would allow the Browns to move Pinkston to right tackle, where they originally envisioned him playing.
jc..
I do believe I mentioned the very same scenario, described above...
Some seem to believe that Pinkston does not have the skills to play RT but you don't play 4 years at a major college at LT without having some skills to play the position.
A lot could happen between now and next season, but if Steinie returns, I look for Pinkston to take over at RT. Also, I could see the Browns retaining Pashos, if healthy and using him as depth for OG as well as OT. Lauvao and Pashos could battle for the RG spot.
If Steinie returns healthy, and the Browns Oline continues to improve, the Browns might bypass the Oline in the draft. The Browns might be looking at RBs, WRs, and QBs on offense and LB, CB and Dline on defense.
It becomes a matter of too many positions of need for the Browns to address all in the upcoming draft. Heckert will be forced to prioritize and address some of the areas of need via the draft while addressing other areas via free agency.
...imo..mac
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 06:09 PM
Quote:
I would almost never take a RT in the first round unless my QB was a southpaw thrower.
I like Levy Adcock or Nate Potter in the third round.
I agree that DeCastro is awesome - but you would take an OG but not an RT based on value? That seems backwards.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 06:47 PM
Quote:
Quote:
If Steinbach is healthy in 2012 it would be a huge boost to the Browns’ offensive line. He would most likely assume the starting left guard position which would allow the Browns to move Pinkston to right tackle, where they originally envisioned him playing.
jc..
I do believe I mentioned the very same scenario, described above...
I believe you did.
Quote:
Some seem to believe that Pinkston does not have the skills to play RT but you don't play 4 years at a major college at LT without having some skills to play the position.
I think he might do well enough at RT, but I like him as depth in the G and T positions. That's why I suggested taking either Adcock or Potter in the 3rd round. I like them. Even if you move Pinkston to RT, then you have Adcock or Potter as depth. You might take a flyer on a RT later in the draft (5th round like Pinkston) and use him as a back-up G/T and use that 3rd round pick on someone else.
Quote:
A lot could happen between now and next season, but if Steinie returns, I look for Pinkston to take over at RT. Also, I could see the Browns retaining Pashos, if healthy and using him as depth for OG as well as OT. Lauvao and Pashos could battle for the RG spot.
This is where we diverge. I prefer to use Pinkston as the depth and if you're intent on keeping Lauvao, you keep him as further depth, then fine but I let Pashos go.
Quote:
If Steinie returns healthy, and the Browns Oline continues to improve, the Browns might bypass the Oline in the draft. The Browns might be looking at RBs, WRs, and QBs on offense and LB, CB and Dline on defense.
I hope they're looking at every position, but to bypass the OL in the draft would be suicide. You have to improve it. We've got nothing on the right side. Pashos is junk and my view of Lauvao isn't any better.
Quote:
It becomes a matter of too many positions of need for the Browns to address all in the upcoming draft. Heckert will be forced to prioritize and address some of the areas of need via the draft while addressing other areas via free agency.
I'm not sure that they can address very man of them in free agency without overpaying. If they're going to do that, I'd much rather they get some legitimate offensive weapons for McCoy.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 06:50 PM
Quote:Quote:
I would almost never take a RT in the first round unless my QB was a southpaw thrower.
I like Levy Adcock or Nate Potter in the third round.
I agree that DeCastro is awesome - but you would take an OG but not an RT based on value? That seems backwards.
Value? We can't run the ball inside at all. Furthermore, I think that DeCastro is the best OL in the draft, no matter whether G or T.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 06:57 PM
What I'm saying is that if the best OLman was a tackle, you said that you wouldn't draft him because you'd never take an RT in the draft.
I understand that the best tackles are usually put at LT, but if the OG position is worth a first round pick based on position, then so is the RT position (which is certainly more valuable than OG.)
If we're drafting in the 4-5 range at Matt Kalil is sitting there, you have to take him.
I understand that the best tackles are usually put at LT, but if the OG position is worth a first round pick based on position, then so is the RT position (which is certainly more valuable than OG.)
If we're drafting in the 4-5 range at Matt Kalil is sitting there, you have to take him.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 07:18 PM
Quote:
What I'm saying is that if the best OLman was a tackle, you said that you wouldn't draft him because you'd never take an RT in the draft.
Not quite. I wouldn't take a RT in the first round of the draft unless my QB was a southpaw. I would be taking a LT in the first round and I wouldn't be expecting (like Oakland had) of savaging what I could from such a pick and moving him to the right side.
Quote:
I understand that the best tackles are usually put at LT, but if the OG position is worth a first round pick based on position, then so is the RT position (which is certainly more valuable than OG.)
Not in my view. Your interior linemen are more important than the RT when you're trying to run the ball inside and to protect your QB from the inside pass rush. I'll take a guard capable of pulling than a run-of-the-mill RT. I'm not looking to draft an NFL quality LT to play RT. I'm just not doing it.
Quote:
If we're drafting in the 4-5 range at Matt Kalil is sitting there, you have to take him.
Why? See above. I'm not drafting an NFL quality LT to play RT. I'd trade down first or make a different selection.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 07:32 PM
Quote:
Not in my view. Your interior linemen are more important than the RT when you're trying to run the ball inside and to protect your QB from the inside pass rush. I'll take a guard capable of pulling than a run-of-the-mill RT. I'm not looking to draft an NFL quality LT to play RT. I'm just not doing it.
so what about when you want to run outside? and what about protecting the outside blitz? I mean your logic isn't making sense to me.
Teams that are pretty good can afford to spend a first round pick on a Guard.. we cannot. Now if he ranks high on your board, and everyone you had above him has been selected.. then sure b/c he's your BPA.. but other than that.. I'm not getting a guard in the 1st..
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 08:12 PM
Quote:
Not in my view. Your interior linemen are more important than the RT when you're trying to run the ball inside and to protect your QB from the inside pass rush. I'll take a guard capable of pulling than a run-of-the-mill RT. I'm not looking to draft an NFL quality LT to play RT. I'm just not doing it.
Why is your RT suddenly run of the mill? RTs can also be great.
Quote:
Why? See above. I'm not drafting an NFL quality LT to play RT. I'd trade down first or make a different selection.
Then maybe we should play him at OG instead of RT - then he would be worth it? He'd be a much better interior pass blocker than DeCastro
I don't disagree that DeCastro is the most physically dominant, but he is not the most valuable, Kalil is (not just because of position, he has much better feet than DeCastro). Kalil is also more valuable playing RT than DeCastro is playing OG, because RTs are nearly as valuable as LTs in this league, where defenses always shift to attack the weak side.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 09:03 PM
Quote:
so what about when you want to run outside? and what about protecting the outside blitz? I mean your logic isn't making sense to me.
If you want to run outside, a pulling guard can help in that regard.
That's why I'd like to draft a RT in the 3rd round. If the Browns want to move Pinkston to the RT spot, I'm not opposed to it, but drafting depth (and no, I wouldn't bring Pashos back) later in the draft.
Quote:
Teams that are pretty good can afford to spend a first round pick on a Guard.. we cannot.
I've already brought up the fact that the SF drafted Mike Iupati (LG) in the first round. They also drafted Anthony Davis (RT) in the same first round. Last that I checked, they've done alright for themselves two years later.
Quote:
Now if he ranks high on your board, and everyone you had above him has been selected.. then sure b/c he's your BPA.. but other than that.. I'm not getting a guard in the 1st..
I'm taking the best OL in the first round if he's available and I believe that the need is desperate at that position.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/18/11 09:13 PM
Quote:
Why is your RT suddenly run of the mill? RTs can also be great.
You're right that right tackles can be great. But I'm looking at taking the best OL in the draft and getting him further down in the draft. I'm also trying to obtain additional picks to do it.
Now, with that said, if you had an offensive weapon is there and you want them, I'm not going to complain. We obviously need them. For example, if Blackmon is there or Trent Richardson is there, then I'm okay with it. I don't really like it, but I understand the thinking process. I still think that fixing that OL for years to come is better than getting a high profile receiver (they come out every year) or running back. You can get them later in the draft and they'll need an adequate OL for them to run behind.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 02:45 PM
that's funny, Heckert said himself that they drafted Pinkston to play guard.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 03:43 PM
Quote:
that's funny, Heckert said himself that they drafted Pinkston to play guard.
I thought so too.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 03:52 PM
Quote:
If we can get up to the #4 spot behind Indianapolis, St. Louis, Minnesota, we're going to get our Quarterback. Barkley?
I hate to bring up something Colin Cowherd (
) just said, but has anybody thought of the possibility that St.Louis loses faith in Bradford and takes one of the big 2 QBs?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 03:59 PM
I heard that.
If Indy happens to win another game, and St. Louis loses out and St. Louis gets the #1 pick, then I think it's possible they take Luck.
However, I don't think at #2 they take a QB not named Andrew Luck.
If they are at #2, they'll take Blackmon, IMO.
If Indy happens to win another game, and St. Louis loses out and St. Louis gets the #1 pick, then I think it's possible they take Luck.
However, I don't think at #2 they take a QB not named Andrew Luck.
If they are at #2, they'll take Blackmon, IMO.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 04:02 PM
I don't think there's a way the Rams take Luck. I don't think they're going to give up on Bradford after 2 years, especially considering the mess that surrounds him.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 04:15 PM
Not just that but Bradford was also the last one to get a "really big money" #1 draft pick contract. It's not trade friendly and I just can't see STL investing that much money into 1 position or having one of the highest paid people in the NFL be your backup QB.
I just can't fathom anyone taking on Bradford's massive contract in a trade and I can't see STL keeping him on the bench for what they are paying him. The only other option is to release him and that would accelerate his signing bonus to next year's cap number, effectively crushing their ability to sign anyone.
St Louis isn't taking a QB with their pick. Cowherd is a knucklehead who doesn't think things through. He just like to throw things out there to get people talking and get ratings.
I just can't fathom anyone taking on Bradford's massive contract in a trade and I can't see STL keeping him on the bench for what they are paying him. The only other option is to release him and that would accelerate his signing bonus to next year's cap number, effectively crushing their ability to sign anyone.
St Louis isn't taking a QB with their pick. Cowherd is a knucklehead who doesn't think things through. He just like to throw things out there to get people talking and get ratings.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 04:18 PM
That and Bradford was rookie of the year. So it's not like he went out there and put on a Blane Gabbert-like crapfest. He looked pretty decent for a rookie qb on a horrible team.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 04:18 PM
Well, it is a possibility, no matter how remote. I just don't see it happening.
The key will be, if the Rams do have the no. 1 pick, the asking price for a trade for Luck will go down, IMO. They might say they want a king's ransom, but in the end, they're likely going to take someone offering them a 1 this year and maybe a 2 this year and a 2 next year, or something like that. Compare that with what Indy can ask for (knowing they hold the cards).
I think the Rams would love to have Blackmon, but I'd be surprised if they take him no. 1 overall, especially considering the offers they'd be getting for that spot.
The key will be, if the Rams do have the no. 1 pick, the asking price for a trade for Luck will go down, IMO. They might say they want a king's ransom, but in the end, they're likely going to take someone offering them a 1 this year and maybe a 2 this year and a 2 next year, or something like that. Compare that with what Indy can ask for (knowing they hold the cards).
I think the Rams would love to have Blackmon, but I'd be surprised if they take him no. 1 overall, especially considering the offers they'd be getting for that spot.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 04:53 PM
Quote:
Cowherd is a knucklehead who doesn't think things through. He just like to throw things out there to get people talking and get ratings.
Their are only a couple things I think I'd enjoy doing more than giving Cowherd a MacGruber style throat rip. I quite honestly can't stand the man's voice, the way he looks, the way he acts. I occasionaly listen to about 2 minutes of his radio show because their's nothing else to listen to and want to jam a stick in my ear. I used to watch SportsNation every day because I think Michelle Beadle is one of the finest women ever created - I haven't watched in a couple months now because Cowherd became too unbearable. So not only does he anger me - he's taken away my ability to watch a fine looking woman talk sports.
I award him no points, may God have mercy on his soul.
/rant.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 05:02 PM
I could sure see this scenario
The Colts lose out and take Luck #1 and he's signed before draft day
The Rams are up next and somebody trades up and takes barclay, because they think he is the best player available and they need a quarterback.
Seattle, Tennessee, even Pittsburgh, even New England, even Dallas, Oakland, alot of possibilities.
If their are 3 qbs who people believe can be top 10 in the league, they go 1, 2, 3 bottom line.
If their are 4 they go 1-4, if their are 5 they could go 1-5, good teams just don't pass up a chance to get a QB.
Minnessota, Buffalo, The Miami Dolphins, even Tampa Bay, definatly the Jaguars, and Detroit.
There's no team that won't take a quarterback, except maybe 4 or 5 teams any year. If a quarterback is great, and they beleive in him they get him.
Well except the Browns. ( Holmgren on trading up for a qb in 2010, "Not this year")
But the Browns template for success is 4-12 seasons, not winning a division game in 8 tries and 28 of 30 losses to pittsburgh.
The Colts lose out and take Luck #1 and he's signed before draft day
The Rams are up next and somebody trades up and takes barclay, because they think he is the best player available and they need a quarterback.
Seattle, Tennessee, even Pittsburgh, even New England, even Dallas, Oakland, alot of possibilities.
If their are 3 qbs who people believe can be top 10 in the league, they go 1, 2, 3 bottom line.
If their are 4 they go 1-4, if their are 5 they could go 1-5, good teams just don't pass up a chance to get a QB.
Minnessota, Buffalo, The Miami Dolphins, even Tampa Bay, definatly the Jaguars, and Detroit.
There's no team that won't take a quarterback, except maybe 4 or 5 teams any year. If a quarterback is great, and they beleive in him they get him.
Well except the Browns. ( Holmgren on trading up for a qb in 2010, "Not this year")
But the Browns template for success is 4-12 seasons, not winning a division game in 8 tries and 28 of 30 losses to pittsburgh.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 05:07 PM
I wasn't quite sure I followed your post (outside of complaining about the Browns).
If I read it correctly, are you saying the following teams would trade up to the top 5 to pick Barkley?
Seattle (I agree, a possibility)
Tennessee (Jake Locker last year)
Pittsburgh (????)
New England (????)
Dallas (ok, maybe, though I think that's a long shot)
Oakland (maybe, but they're pretty invested in Palmer)
Minnesota (giving up on Ponder already?)
Buffalo (Fitzpatrick's deal means nothing?)
Dolphins (possible)
Tampa Bay (giving up on Freeman already?)
Jaguars (perhaps, but I think they stick with Gabbert and try to get him some playmakers, like I think the Rams will do)
Detroit (Stafford over the hill?????)
In other words, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
If I read it correctly, are you saying the following teams would trade up to the top 5 to pick Barkley?
Seattle (I agree, a possibility)
Tennessee (Jake Locker last year)
Pittsburgh (????)
New England (????)
Dallas (ok, maybe, though I think that's a long shot)
Oakland (maybe, but they're pretty invested in Palmer)
Minnesota (giving up on Ponder already?)
Buffalo (Fitzpatrick's deal means nothing?)
Dolphins (possible)
Tampa Bay (giving up on Freeman already?)
Jaguars (perhaps, but I think they stick with Gabbert and try to get him some playmakers, like I think the Rams will do)
Detroit (Stafford over the hill?????)
In other words, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 05:19 PM
Quote:
I heard that.
If Indy happens to win another game, and St. Louis loses out and St. Louis gets the #1 pick, then I think it's possible they take Luck.
However, I don't think at #2 they take a QB not named Andrew Luck.
If they are at #2, they'll take Blackmon, IMO.
I think it's possible that they take Barkley with the #2 pick if they actually have become disillusioned with Bradford and Luck has been taken by Indy. But, I actually think that Indy would be seeking to trade out if they do have the #1 spot and will take the best offer for that spot.
Can you imagine what Snider might give for that #1 pick? They'd move up wherever they end up and give up those 3 number ones (for three consecutive years) and probably a couple of #2s also.
That can get you a lot of top-notch pieces, especially if Washington would continue to pick high (and Indy could trade it out for even more picks).
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 05:23 PM
Seriously, they'd be idiots to have become disillusioned with him... just as much as Cowerd is an idiot for suggesting it. The kid is one season removed from a great rookie campaign and their whole team got blasted by injuries this year which is hurting them more than anything.
I see EXTREMELY little chance at all of them going QB. In fact, the only way I see it happening is if their entire front office got a lobotomy on the morning of draft day.
I see EXTREMELY little chance at all of them going QB. In fact, the only way I see it happening is if their entire front office got a lobotomy on the morning of draft day.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 05:25 PM
Quote:
I see EXTREMELY little chance at all of them going QB. In fact, the only way I see it happening is if their entire front office got a lobotomy on the morning of draft day.
Or maybe they bring in Butch Davis as GM.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 05:28 PM
Quote:
In other words, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Based on some of the teams he thinks would trade up for a QB, it's apparent that he doesn't either!
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 05:29 PM
The great rookie season when he threw for 5.95 YPA and was 25th in the league in passer rating? He threw for 18TDs and 15INTs. It's not a bad rookie season, but I wouldn't call it great. Also, you'd expect him to get better from there, not worse. He's now 30th in passer rating completing 53.5% of his passes, ahead of only Blaine Gabbert.
It's not out of the question.
It's not out of the question.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 05:31 PM
Quote:
Seriously, they'd be idiots to have become disillusioned with him... just as much as Cowerd is an idiot for suggesting it. The kid is one season removed from a great rookie campaign and their whole team got blasted by injuries this year which is hurting them more than anything.
I see EXTREMELY little chance at all of them going QB. In fact, the only way I see it happening is if their entire front office got a lobotomy on the morning of draft day.
I'm not saying that I agree with it but I can see (if their fans are as fickle as Browns fans) that there are calls for Bradford's replacement. I would agree that it's moronic and idiotic to look to get rid of him. There are questions about his frailty, but he's still better than most anything else in the draft this year and with some experiences to add to it.
You might say that Bradford's experiences have been bad and he might be regressing because of it, but I think in a good system, he would be a very nice QB to have.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 05:44 PM
I also want to point out that the browns supposedly called up the rams to trade up for Bradford unless it was just a smokescreen ...
Oh and I don't think we would trade for Bradford unless we had a guy on our staff who worked with him every day in his rookie season and knew basically everything about him .... oh wait ...
I think it would be something where St. Louis can pick up a first (maybe 2?) for Bradford to still get Blackmon or a top flight Tackle ... and then still have something else? We would get a franchise QB who could run Shurmur's offense and not have to mortgage the ENTIRE farm for him ... definitely interesting to say the least.
Oh and I don't think we would trade for Bradford unless we had a guy on our staff who worked with him every day in his rookie season and knew basically everything about him .... oh wait ...
I think it would be something where St. Louis can pick up a first (maybe 2?) for Bradford to still get Blackmon or a top flight Tackle ... and then still have something else? We would get a franchise QB who could run Shurmur's offense and not have to mortgage the ENTIRE farm for him ... definitely interesting to say the least.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 05:57 PM
why pay a QB "franchise QB" money when the team that has him now is trying to dump him off on you? and, he has looked worse than Colt this season (hence the possibility of dumping)
Bradford's contract and play this season makes him virtually untradeable (never know what a Snyder led team might do)
Bradford's contract and play this season makes him virtually untradeable (never know what a Snyder led team might do)
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 06:01 PM
I'm not advocating it ... I'm just saying we would be the top destination for it.
He did "well" without any real help in 2010 with Shurmur as his Coordinator / Qb Coach. Shurmur knows him and is here now.
The Rams wouldn't be "dumping" him any more than the colts would be "dumping" manning by taking Luck and then getting what should be a top flight QB. Besides ... if they can look decent with Danny Amendola as their top receiver ... maybe Bradford could be an improvement in our offense.
Not saying we will or that we could ... but you can bet if that's the scenario the Browns would be the top assumed destination for Sam Bradford. I also think it could be a good deal if we only had to trade let's say one first and then a second?
He did "well" without any real help in 2010 with Shurmur as his Coordinator / Qb Coach. Shurmur knows him and is here now.
The Rams wouldn't be "dumping" him any more than the colts would be "dumping" manning by taking Luck and then getting what should be a top flight QB. Besides ... if they can look decent with Danny Amendola as their top receiver ... maybe Bradford could be an improvement in our offense.
Not saying we will or that we could ... but you can bet if that's the scenario the Browns would be the top assumed destination for Sam Bradford. I also think it could be a good deal if we only had to trade let's say one first and then a second?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 06:17 PM
Quote:
why pay a QB "franchise QB" money when the team that has him now is trying to dump him off on you? and, he has looked worse than Colt this season (hence the possibility of dumping)
Bradford's contract and play this season makes him virtually untradeable (never know what a Snyder led team might do)
I think there was a legitimate medical reason he's been a little off this season.
Didn't Bradford suffer the dreaded "high ankle sprain" to his plant leg?
The Rams coaches were quoted as saying "the injury has compromised his mechanics and put more stress on his arm."
It would be unprecedented for a team to take a QB #1 overall and then ANOTHER QB #1 overall 2 years later. Bradford is a year removed from offensive rookie of the year. Unless he has irreparable damage to that ankle, it makes no sense to trade him after 1 injury riddled season.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 06:29 PM
Quote:Damned straight they aren't going to give up on Bradford. They've begged to find weapons for him, and they can't even put a line in front of him. He's been hobbling around on a bad wheel much of the year, and there's no hope for his supporting cast right now.
I don't think there's a way the Rams take Luck. I don't think they're going to give up on Bradford after 2 years, especially considering the mess that surrounds him.
They are the NFC version of us. They lack talent and need a BIG infusion of it. If I were them, I'd do what Heck did this past draft and drop down to get more help.
They aren't quitting on Bradford. I'll put money on that one with anyone who cares to gamble.
I like Cowherd, but he's paid to stir the pot. Don't take it as gospel.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 06:39 PM
Quote:
he's paid to stir the pot.
of course he is. His job is NOT to pass around credible thoughts and musings. His job is to keep people tuning in and to garner ratings; period.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/19/11 07:18 PM
I now know that I don't ever have to take one of your posts seriously. Ever.
What a joke.
What a joke.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 06:07 AM
Updated after Week 15. We picked an excellent week to play one of our best games of the season but still lose...we gained 5 draft spots. That's HUGE. As a reminder, the SoS numbers I'm using are based on each teams schedule for the entire season as opposed to who they have played to date.
I am seeing two "worst case" scenarios emerging:
1) The draft goes
1. Indy - Luck
2. Minny - Kalil
3. Rams - Blackmon
4. Washington trades up - Barkley
5. Cleveland - ???.
I want 1 of Luck, Blackmon or Barkley...if they're ALL off the board in the first 4 picks we're screwed. I guess I'd trade back at this point?? Guys that would be deserving of that spot would be Trent Richardson (no way I take a RB at 5), Riley Reiff (I'm not drafting a RT at 5), Morris Claiborne (he'd make a great pair with Haden but man CB isn't our #1 priority and there are plenty of good starting corners we can grab in the 2nd round rather than burning our top pick on one) and Quinton Coples.
2) Indy beats Jacksonville and St Louis ends up with the #1 pick. They decide to draft Luck and trade Bradford. What team has a need for a QB, has an extra 1st round pick they could trade and has a coach with an extensive knowledge of Bradford? Yeah. I can see this move a mile away...and if it happens I may never watch the Browns again. Sam freaking Bradford. I didn't like him all that much when he came out and I like him even less now. Let's put it this way. He's probably an upgrade over McCoy but not enough to warrant spending a 1st rounder plus the $$ we'd owe him. Also, I'm not sure he's much of an upgrade over Seneca. Blegh.
Let's all pray neither of those scenarios actually play out!
I am seeing two "worst case" scenarios emerging:
1) The draft goes
1. Indy - Luck
2. Minny - Kalil
3. Rams - Blackmon
4. Washington trades up - Barkley
5. Cleveland - ???.
I want 1 of Luck, Blackmon or Barkley...if they're ALL off the board in the first 4 picks we're screwed. I guess I'd trade back at this point?? Guys that would be deserving of that spot would be Trent Richardson (no way I take a RB at 5), Riley Reiff (I'm not drafting a RT at 5), Morris Claiborne (he'd make a great pair with Haden but man CB isn't our #1 priority and there are plenty of good starting corners we can grab in the 2nd round rather than burning our top pick on one) and Quinton Coples.
2) Indy beats Jacksonville and St Louis ends up with the #1 pick. They decide to draft Luck and trade Bradford. What team has a need for a QB, has an extra 1st round pick they could trade and has a coach with an extensive knowledge of Bradford? Yeah. I can see this move a mile away...and if it happens I may never watch the Browns again. Sam freaking Bradford. I didn't like him all that much when he came out and I like him even less now. Let's put it this way. He's probably an upgrade over McCoy but not enough to warrant spending a 1st rounder plus the $$ we'd owe him. Also, I'm not sure he's much of an upgrade over Seneca. Blegh.
Let's all pray neither of those scenarios actually play out!
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 01:00 PM
What would happen if we lose out, Minnesota and St. Louis win out, and Jax and TB each win 1 game?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 01:14 PM
I'm just guessing but I think the Browns would draft 2nd
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 01:32 PM
Depending on the FO's position with Hillis is. If it's negative I'm looking at Richardson this spot or the very best DE on the board.The CB out of LSU is a possibility also.
Not sure if I'd be willing to go the Baylor QB here.
Not sure if I'd be willing to go the Baylor QB here.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 02:09 PM
RB is a luxury on this team right now .... a 1st round RB anyway.
I would not expect a 1st round DE ... especially a high 1st round DE, as Heckert is on record saying that you can find those guys in rounds 2-5 because of the sheer volume of players in college coming out of the 4-3. Same thing with 4-3 LB.
On a team with so many holes, I would expect us to look at QB, WR, OL, or CB with our top pick. I think that these are the areas that Heckert feels most "deserve" a 1st round grade.
It would not surprise me at all to see us go QB/WR with our 1st 2 picks. Then we might look DE, OL, LB and CB with rounds 2-4.
I would not expect a 1st round DE ... especially a high 1st round DE, as Heckert is on record saying that you can find those guys in rounds 2-5 because of the sheer volume of players in college coming out of the 4-3. Same thing with 4-3 LB.
On a team with so many holes, I would expect us to look at QB, WR, OL, or CB with our top pick. I think that these are the areas that Heckert feels most "deserve" a 1st round grade.
It would not surprise me at all to see us go QB/WR with our 1st 2 picks. Then we might look DE, OL, LB and CB with rounds 2-4.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 08:03 PM
Quote:
RB is a luxury on this team right now .... a 1st round RB anyway.
Agreed. It's why I have no interest in Richardson no matter how good he is. A dominant RB means little in today;s NFL. Ask Minnesota, Jacksonville, Philadelphia etc.
Quote:
It would not surprise me at all to see us go QB/WR with our 1st 2 picks. Then we might look DE, OL, LB and CB with rounds 2-4.
Not only would it not surprise me either but it's what I WANT us to do. The problem is if Luck and Barkley are already off the board....we're left with one of RG3 or Landry Jones. Pass and pass. As for WR if Blackmon is off the board then we're looking at one of Floyd, Alshon Jeffery or Kendall Wright. I'd prefer Floyd or Wright but not at #5. I want one of those guys with Atlanta's pick.
As much as I WANT to go QB/WR or WR/QB there may not be a QB or WR worthy of a top 5 pick available there. That's the problem.
It's bad enough that I might even consider trading UP...even from #5, to either get ahead of StL or at least up to #4 so Washington can't jump us....then we are guaranteed one of Blackmon or Barkley.
Let's just hope Jacksonville beats Indy. That solves A LOT of our possible problems. St Louis won't get the #1 pick and we won't have to worry about them trading us Bradford. Also with the Jax win (assuming we lose out) we'd be slotted up to the #4 pick without having to do any trading...again guaranteeing us one of Blackmon or Barkley. That game is huge to us.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 08:09 PM
I'm gonna cry if Minny takes MB.
Cmon Christine Ponder is awesome!
Cmon Christine Ponder is awesome!
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 08:12 PM
I don't see why they would. I think it's pretty widely accepted that they want to go Matt Kalil there.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 08:16 PM
And you can bet Gabbert will do everything he can to beat Indy. Much the same as grossman and moore are trying to make it too expensive to replace them, Gabbert doesn't want to be holding a clipboard next year, either. I bet he plays his best two games the next 2 weeks.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 08:19 PM
Quote:
I'm gonna cry if Minny takes MB.
Cmon Christine Ponder is awesome!
Christine Ponder might be awesome...Christian, not so much.
Just bustin your chops!
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 08:24 PM
Quote:Quote:
I'm gonna cry if Minny takes MB.
Cmon Christine Ponder is awesome!
Christine Ponder might be awesome...Christian, not so much.
Just bustin your chops!
That first game he played against GB he looked really good, but he has really regressed. Now he's not even getting all the snaps. He throws a really nice ball but his decision making is pretty bad right now.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 08:30 PM
How about Jonathan Martin (T Standford). With the new CBA limits on rookie contracts, we could play him at Right and have studs at both tackle positions (and Martin grades out as a + run blocker too). I wouldn't have a problem with that pick, as that big of an upgrade over Pashos would likely have a big immediate impact.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/20/11 11:35 PM
Quote:
Let's just hope Jacksonville beats Indy. That solves A LOT of our possible problems. St Louis won't get the #1 pick and we won't have to worry about them trading us Bradford. Also with the Jax win (assuming we lose out) we'd be slotted up to the #4 pick without having to do any trading...again guaranteeing us one of Blackmon or Barkley. That game is huge to us.
there is a misconception that if indi wins, the rams get the first pick. This is wrong. A 2-14 Indi is still the odds on favorite for the first pick, with the vikes an outside chance at it. The rams are pretty much stuck at three, the way i understand it anyways.
But yes, i hope the jags beat the colts, that bumps us to 4, as long as we don't do something stupid like win a meaningless game- but i doubt that the ravens or steelers will allow that to happen.
Now, if the vikes ended up with the number one- i do think they would listen to a trade. They still have a veteran core, and extra picks would fix the line and secondary.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 12:39 AM
I want us to go get RG3 .... so I would be perfectly fine if another team took Barkley.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 01:41 AM
Ugh.
So you're ok drafting ANOTHER spread QB with major question marks about his accuracy and ability to read defenses? He has a strong arm and throws a good deep ball, I'll give you that...of course we only run 4 yard routes so I don't see how that helps us.
He has more of chance of becoming the next Troy Smith than he does the next Michael Vick IMO. That's not very high praise considering I wouldn't even want the real Michael Vick as our QB.
If we draft RG3 I might literally throw up in my mouth.
So you're ok drafting ANOTHER spread QB with major question marks about his accuracy and ability to read defenses? He has a strong arm and throws a good deep ball, I'll give you that...of course we only run 4 yard routes so I don't see how that helps us.
He has more of chance of becoming the next Troy Smith than he does the next Michael Vick IMO. That's not very high praise considering I wouldn't even want the real Michael Vick as our QB.
If we draft RG3 I might literally throw up in my mouth.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 01:44 AM
Maybe I'm seeing the wrong clips, but RG3's deep balls won't work in the NFL outside of the every now and again.
If we take him, I'll be upset ... he may work out, and I'm probably the last opinion to listen to on this ... but I'm not seeing it right now.
If we take him, I'll be upset ... he may work out, and I'm probably the last opinion to listen to on this ... but I'm not seeing it right now.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:10 AM
Question marks about his accuracy?
Everything I have seen on him, and everything I have read about him tout his accuracy as a strength. He hits his receivers at all levels. He can throw up the field, and to the outside with accurate throws.
He seems to see the field well, even under pressure. He makes throws with touch to all levels of the field. He has mobility to get away from pressure, and the ability to maintain his concentration down the field. He is an immensely intelligent kid, and has already started his Masters work in his redshirt junior year, after graduating with a double degree.
I like everything about this kid except for his height. I hope that he's our newest member of the Browns come next April.
Everything I have seen on him, and everything I have read about him tout his accuracy as a strength. He hits his receivers at all levels. He can throw up the field, and to the outside with accurate throws.
He seems to see the field well, even under pressure. He makes throws with touch to all levels of the field. He has mobility to get away from pressure, and the ability to maintain his concentration down the field. He is an immensely intelligent kid, and has already started his Masters work in his redshirt junior year, after graduating with a double degree.
I like everything about this kid except for his height. I hope that he's our newest member of the Browns come next April.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:14 AM
Quote:
Maybe I'm seeing the wrong clips, but RG3's deep balls won't work in the NFL outside of the every now and again.
If we take him, I'll be upset ... he may work out, and I'm probably the last opinion to listen to on this ... but I'm not seeing it right now.
who's deep balls work more than "every now and again".. you act like its easy.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:20 AM
Thanks for keeping this updated Graff.. hopefully soon enough we won't have to have have threads like this. Just a heads up, New England has the Saints' first round pick from the Mark Ingram trade.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:28 AM
Quote:Quote:
Maybe I'm seeing the wrong clips, but RG3's deep balls won't work in the NFL outside of the every now and again.
If we take him, I'll be upset ... he may work out, and I'm probably the last opinion to listen to on this ... but I'm not seeing it right now.
who's deep balls work more than "every now and again".. you act like its easy.
I think it's far easier to do in college than in the pros, yes.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:30 AM
Every single thing is easier to do in college than in the pros.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:30 AM
Last two Heckert drafts he's attacked a position group
2010: Secondary
2011: D-line
2012: ?
With where we pick and what our needs are, I don't see a double dip this year unless it's with 1B and 2 at LB. secondary (CB/S), or WR. There's a possibility that we could also go WR at 1A and 2 but my guess it's going to be 3 unique position groups.
My assumption is we'll end up at # 4 as we lose out and Jacksonville beats Indy....I'm one of the few that doesn't like Barkley but I could also see a scenario where Miami and/or Washington makes a play to move up to get him with Minn or Rams. Let's say it's the Rams b/c while they need more weapons, I see Minn not wanting to miss on Kalil
1. Indy - Luck
2. Minn - Kalil
3. Miami - Barkely (new coach, new ownership need to make splash and does this guy look like he should play anywhere else then South Beach?)
4. Browns - Blackmon
To be honest, I like Blackmon ALOT but I like him a lot around 8-10 b/c he doesn't have that elite size/speed and that concerns me b/c I think the only time you go top 5 receiver is if it's a Megatron/Andre Johnson type. He reminds me so much of Bolden which would be great, but is that #4 value?
The problem is this draft doesn't have a lot of top end value IMO. If you can't get Luck or Kalil then I think everyone else is a grade 8-15 draft pick
enough rambling...
2010: Secondary
2011: D-line
2012: ?
With where we pick and what our needs are, I don't see a double dip this year unless it's with 1B and 2 at LB. secondary (CB/S), or WR. There's a possibility that we could also go WR at 1A and 2 but my guess it's going to be 3 unique position groups.
My assumption is we'll end up at # 4 as we lose out and Jacksonville beats Indy....I'm one of the few that doesn't like Barkley but I could also see a scenario where Miami and/or Washington makes a play to move up to get him with Minn or Rams. Let's say it's the Rams b/c while they need more weapons, I see Minn not wanting to miss on Kalil
1. Indy - Luck
2. Minn - Kalil
3. Miami - Barkely (new coach, new ownership need to make splash and does this guy look like he should play anywhere else then South Beach?)
4. Browns - Blackmon
To be honest, I like Blackmon ALOT but I like him a lot around 8-10 b/c he doesn't have that elite size/speed and that concerns me b/c I think the only time you go top 5 receiver is if it's a Megatron/Andre Johnson type. He reminds me so much of Bolden which would be great, but is that #4 value?
The problem is this draft doesn't have a lot of top end value IMO. If you can't get Luck or Kalil then I think everyone else is a grade 8-15 draft pick
enough rambling...
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 03:05 AM
Quote:
Maybe I'm seeing the wrong clips, but RG3's deep balls won't work in the NFL outside of the every now and again.
If we take him, I'll be upset ... he may work out, and I'm probably the last opinion to listen to on this ... but I'm not seeing it right now.
Griffin has the best deep ball in the draft. He doesn't have a rocket arm, but his deep ball is fantastic.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 03:19 AM
Barkley has the best deep ball accuracy of all the QBs. Just seems to drop that ball in with no effort. Last year it was the worst.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 03:37 AM
Geep accuracy is not necessarily the same thing as a good deep ball. Barkley floats his deep passes a bit, while RG3's are thrown on a line.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 04:08 AM
I've seen more of Griffin than Barkley, but I've seen the deep ball as a strength for both. Griffin's is automatic, though. It's ridiculous. If we draft Griffin, we must draft wright or sign Jackson or draft someone else with crazy speed or we lose out on a key advantage griffin brings.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 04:23 AM
I've seen people compare Hilton to Randall Cobb. He is not built like him and he is less of a short route WR. However he is a more dynamic in-space guy. He is also a better returner. He also has similar potential impact though.
Curry looked very stiff. He had high pad level to me. He could be a great SDE in 4-3 though. He needs to more to his frame. He is definately a 2nd round guy.
Curry looked very stiff. He had high pad level to me. He could be a great SDE in 4-3 though. He needs to more to his frame. He is definately a 2nd round guy.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 09:39 AM
Quote:
If we draft RG3 I might literally throw up in my mouth.
Me too...Barf...
Let Washington experiment with this kid...I'm pretty confident Holmgren sees a QB who's hit or miss with Griffin...And u do not go that route at 4 or 5 in ANY draft...This is what u call a HYPE Machine...
All I can say is we best not play over our heads the next 2 weeks and win one of these meaningless games to take us out of the QB sweepstakes...This isn't a Locker/Gabbert/Ponder year...NONE of those 3 shoulda even been 1st rounders last year...It's the PREMIUM put on QB's in the NFL that drove those 3 up the order...
This year there are 2 bonafide QB's that u take and run with...Luck & Barkley...
The more this sinks in the more Luck looks unattainable...Unless we are so hot on the guy that we offer whoever at 1 a serious package...And they can't pass on it with the plan of getting Barkley instead and some major extra picks...If we go that route SUPERB...
If not...We can still get Barkley easily...Both the Rams and Minny need WR and LT help...Just so happens there's a top tier WR and LT available in Blackmon and Kalil...It's not Calculus to figure out that the team that drops to 4 is gonna have one or the other sitting there...
I'd bet either Minny or the Rams would take our 2 firsts and one other pick (Our Atlanta 4th????) to move down a couple spots and we get our QB...This is almost a MUST DO for this team because we will go NOWHERE until we secure a QB who will immediately become the Kosar type face of this franchise...
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 09:56 AM
I think that is the route we take as well.
We are making a move up.
First we offer the Colts and see if that is even possible.
That would take this years firsts, next years first, and another high pick this year....maybe the 3rd rounder. Then the Colts would at least listen.
Then we make a play for the 2nd pick.
I am not sure what that will cost since there might be some demand to get in to that position.
We are making a move up.
First we offer the Colts and see if that is even possible.
That would take this years firsts, next years first, and another high pick this year....maybe the 3rd rounder. Then the Colts would at least listen.
Then we make a play for the 2nd pick.
I am not sure what that will cost since there might be some demand to get in to that position.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 11:47 AM
Quote:
Question marks about his accuracy?
Everything I have seen on him, and everything I have read about him tout his accuracy as a strength. He hits his receivers at all levels. He can throw up the field, and to the outside with accurate throws.
He seems to see the field well, even under pressure. He makes throws with touch to all levels of the field. He has mobility to get away from pressure, and the ability to maintain his concentration down the field. He is an immensely intelligent kid, and has already started his Masters work in his redshirt junior year, after graduating with a double degree.
I like everything about this kid except for his height. I hope that he's our newest member of the Browns come next April.
Wait! You like the accuracy that you see from RG3 but you complain that McCoy isn't accurate? Based on college production, McCoy is more accurate and ran the system that we supposedly call our offense.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 11:55 AM
When I saw RG3 play, passes were in the hands of his receivers, not just "in the neighborhood". It wasn't college accuracy, but more focused on hitting the guy in stride, in his hands, and allowing him to make a play with the ball.
This is exactly and precisely the biggest problem McCoy has. He may get the ball to a receiver, but he rarely gives the receiver an opportunity to make a play after the catch. His deep ball is horrible. He gets it in the area ....... but his receivers usually have to stop, come back, wait, and battle the defender for the ball.
I will say that he did throw 1 or 2 nice back shoulder passes earlier this year. That's not enough though.
This is exactly and precisely the biggest problem McCoy has. He may get the ball to a receiver, but he rarely gives the receiver an opportunity to make a play after the catch. His deep ball is horrible. He gets it in the area ....... but his receivers usually have to stop, come back, wait, and battle the defender for the ball.
I will say that he did throw 1 or 2 nice back shoulder passes earlier this year. That's not enough though.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 01:23 PM
For what its worth, I was watching Mike and Mike in the morning and they were discussing the 1st overall pick. Consensus was that if the Colts get the #1 pick they take Luck but if the Rams manage to "earn" the 1st pick that they would trade it.
Adam Schefter chimes in and suggests that if that was the case the approximate value to trade up for that pick would be three 1st rounders AND two 2nd rounders. Perhaps four 1st rounders.
I think this takes it to another level from our prior discussions of three 1st rounders.
Adam Schefter chimes in and suggests that if that was the case the approximate value to trade up for that pick would be three 1st rounders AND two 2nd rounders. Perhaps four 1st rounders.
I think this takes it to another level from our prior discussions of three 1st rounders.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 01:44 PM
Quote:
Adam Schefter chimes in and suggests that if that was the case the approximate value to trade up for that pick would be three 1st rounders AND two 2nd rounders. Perhaps four 1st rounders.
Different 1st rounders have different values though. For instance, us at hopefully number 4. I'd think that our two 1st round picks plus next year's 1st round has to be enough to get him if we really want him. Number 4 would give the Colts/Rams a choice of one of the top 5 guys in the draft.
I'm not sure I'd trade up to get Matt Barkley though......... But if he's there when we pick, i'd have trouble not picking him. He sounds like a good fit to me. Def don't want RG3. In many ways, I wouldn't mind staying where we are (assuming we're 4) and choosing between Barkley, Richardson, and Blackmon. My number 1 would be Barkley, 2 would be Richardson, 3 would be Blackmon. But I need to watch more on Blackmon before that decision is made.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 01:49 PM
We could probably get away with offering a slightly less package, right? 2 first rounders this year gives you immediate impact.
My guess is, if Indy did want to trade this pick, they aren't looking toward the future, they have Peyton Manning who has a few good years left, and they are gunning for another SB.
I still think the odds of them dealing the pick aren't good, but if they do have any interest, we have to be one of the top teams they would be looking at.
Three 1's and two 2's might be asking too much, but I guess if the guy pans out nobody will complain.
My guess is, if Indy did want to trade this pick, they aren't looking toward the future, they have Peyton Manning who has a few good years left, and they are gunning for another SB.
I still think the odds of them dealing the pick aren't good, but if they do have any interest, we have to be one of the top teams they would be looking at.
Three 1's and two 2's might be asking too much, but I guess if the guy pans out nobody will complain.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:04 PM
Quote:
Three 1's and two 2's might be asking too much, but I guess if the guy pans out nobody will complain.
I dunno, that's asking a lot if you ask me, no matter who it is............
I'd consider 3 1st rounders, but we'd have to be absolutely sure on the guy. But the 2's. That's a lot. May be 2 1st rounders and 2 2nd rounders even. But that's as far as I'd go for pretty much anyone.
I mean, Andrew Luck could get a flag thrown in his eye by some idiot referee for all we know.
I'm thinking Matt Barkely or Trent Richardson and our 2nd 1st round pick on a RT
Another interesting option at WR IMO is this guy Mohamed Sanu out of Rutgers Univ. I've seen him for the past couple years and he's pretty good. And Rutgers doesn't run a high powered offense with these top notch Big12 QBs or anything. I dunno where he'll be picked, but I definitely am interested in him. May be 2nd or 3rd round? I don't really know where people have him pegged, but I have seen him a bit and he's always been good. I remember when he was a freshman, he was very highly regarded
-Edit: Not looking so good on this Sanu guy, just typed his name into Google and it says that he is probably going to stay for his senior season at Rutgers. Not good for UConn either...........
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:04 PM
Colts are already preparing fans for life after Manning. Sending out these little rumors that they might be releasing him is all part of the public perception game. Peyton is preparing for life after Colts as he is now no longer working out with the team.
The good thing is that with Peyton out in the market it will take a quarterback needy team off the table. Miami seems like the type of team for Peyton Manning. Pretty good OL with Jake Long at LT, Reggie Bush and Brandon Marshall as weapons.
Right now I would say
Luck = Colts
Manning=Phins
Barkley=Browns
RG3= Redskins
The good thing is that with Peyton out in the market it will take a quarterback needy team off the table. Miami seems like the type of team for Peyton Manning. Pretty good OL with Jake Long at LT, Reggie Bush and Brandon Marshall as weapons.
Right now I would say
Luck = Colts
Manning=Phins
Barkley=Browns
RG3= Redskins
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:34 PM
What if the Browns end up with the 2nd pick in the draft, as far fetched as it may seem?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:38 PM
I try to trade down and snag some extra picks!!
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:44 PM
Matt Barkley=Mark Sanchez
RG3=Warren Moon
Lock the thread.
Seriously, with 3 picks in the top 40, man, my pants are gettin' tighter. But the bigger factor this year as opposed to last year in terms of what Heck might do revolves around his comments about free agency.
Unlike last season where we had no intention of spending big dollars, he's flat-out said he's going to dive into the free agent market this off-season. How he views that as a fix will have a great impact on where we go in the draft.
It's just too soon to even remotely predict which way he'll go. In terms of contracts and skill going into 2012, we need help at LITERALLY every single position on both sides of the ball.
RG3=Warren Moon
Lock the thread.
Seriously, with 3 picks in the top 40, man, my pants are gettin' tighter. But the bigger factor this year as opposed to last year in terms of what Heck might do revolves around his comments about free agency.
Unlike last season where we had no intention of spending big dollars, he's flat-out said he's going to dive into the free agent market this off-season. How he views that as a fix will have a great impact on where we go in the draft.
It's just too soon to even remotely predict which way he'll go. In terms of contracts and skill going into 2012, we need help at LITERALLY every single position on both sides of the ball.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:45 PM
Quote:
Seriously, with 3 picks in the top 40, man, my pants are gettin' tighter.
I don't see why having 3 picks in the top 40 makes you gain weight?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:47 PM
I don't think there is a huge difference between Luck and Barkley. Hell right now I would say Barkley is the better QB but Luck has the prototypical QB size. At 2 we would still take Barkley.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 02:54 PM
Quote:Quote:
Seriously, with 3 picks in the top 40, man, my pants are gettin' tighter.
I don't see why having 3 picks in the top 40 makes you gain weight?
I've always had a great appreciation for your sense of humor.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 03:14 PM
Quote:
I don't think there is a huge difference between Luck and Barkley. Hell right now I would say Barkley is the better QB but Luck has the prototypical QB size. At 2 we would still take Barkley.
Whats the heighth and weight difference? I'd like a big old hod!!!
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 03:27 PM
Luck will go 6-4 probably 235-240
Barkley 6-2 220
RG3 6-2 220 looks smaller
Tannehill 6-4 225
Jones 6-4 230
EJ manuel 6-4 245
Nick Foles 6-5 240
Barkley 6-2 220
RG3 6-2 220 looks smaller
Tannehill 6-4 225
Jones 6-4 230
EJ manuel 6-4 245
Nick Foles 6-5 240
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 03:33 PM
Quote:
Luck will go 6-4 probably 235-240
Barkley 6-2 220
RG3 6-2 220 looks smaller
Tannehill 6-4 225
Jones 6-4 230
EJ manuel 6-4 245
Nick Foles 6-5 240
if we're posting heights and weights, don't forget Brock. He's disappointed after some good early season showings, but the dude is huge (and athletic).
6'8" 240lbs
i'm hoping he goes back to school and figures stuff out though.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 03:35 PM
Quote:Granted, we're talking percentage's of inches here, but I don't believe either Barkely or RG3 are gonna get to 6'2. That also represents one of the reasons why I'm pro-RG3 when choosing between the two. I don't want a short pocket-passer. If the guy is short, I want him mobile.
Luck will go 6-4 probably 235-240
Barkley 6-2 220
RG3 6-2 220 looks smaller
Tannehill 6-4 225
Jones 6-4 230
EJ manuel 6-4 245
Nick Foles 6-5 240
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 03:49 PM
Theres' a few big boys in that mix! Thnx Mourg!
Im tired of batted down passes this year. I dont want some fat, gourd head like Jamarcus Russel but I want the guy to be able to take a shot when it happens.
Im tired of batted down passes this year. I dont want some fat, gourd head like Jamarcus Russel but I want the guy to be able to take a shot when it happens.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 04:40 PM
A good QB finds lanes to throw through.
How many passes did Wallace have batted down against a pretty good Arizona pass rush? (and he's really short .... like my height short)
How many passes did Wallace have batted down against a pretty good Arizona pass rush? (and he's really short .... like my height short)
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 05:35 PM
Quote:
When I saw RG3 play, passes were in the hands of his receivers, not just "in the neighborhood". It wasn't college accuracy, but more focused on hitting the guy in stride, in his hands, and allowing him to make a play with the ball.
Maybe we should draft RG3's receivers and see what happens.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 05:40 PM
Quote:
Maybe we should draft RG3's receivers and see what happens.
Somebody is going to do that - at least with Kendall Wright
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 07:20 PM
Quote:
Maybe we should draft RG3's receivers and see what happens.
I thought Terrance Williams was impressive in the games I saw. Griffin had really good skill position players around him, but with an awful O-Line. They had 4 receivers with TD catches over 60 yards.
http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/stats/_/id/239/baylor-bears
Ganaway is a tough RB as well... I'm interested to see how he does in the pros. Real big guy (6' 240#). Can't put my finger on who he reminds me of. Maybe it's the offense but he kind of reminds me of a bigger Jeremiah Johnson. He's got really good speed and power. Doesn't make a whole lot of moves. Very sturdy frame. Maybe a lesser Steven Jackson? Anybody know what round he might go?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 07:53 PM
Quote:Quote:
Maybe I'm seeing the wrong clips, but RG3's deep balls won't work in the NFL outside of the every now and again.
If we take him, I'll be upset ... he may work out, and I'm probably the last opinion to listen to on this ... but I'm not seeing it right now.
Griffin has the best deep ball in the draft. He doesn't have a rocket arm, but his deep ball is fantastic.
You would probably know better than me, but from the clips I watched, most of his deep passes looked like floaters.
Maybe I should watch more.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/21/11 08:11 PM
I've seen him rainbow it many times, but he does it with such accuracy at such distance that it's indefensible. Even if a guy is covered the defender can't get to the ball. that's how you end up with 4 receivers with TDs over 60 yards, and how they led the nation in TD drives under 2 minutes.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/25/11 04:50 PM
I'd like to see an updated Draft chart from GraffZ06 pls...
I like looking at that comprehensive chart. It helps me to see things in black and white.
I like looking at that comprehensive chart. It helps me to see things in black and white.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/25/11 10:07 PM
I usually like to wait until all the games for the week are done before I update so I wasn't going to post anything until after the MNF game this week. But...it's Christmas so here you go . I'll update again on Monday night.
. I'll update again on Monday night.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/25/11 10:34 PM
If the Browns lose on Sunday, they will pick 3rd or 4th. A Minnesota victory over the Bears gives us the 3rd pick and all but guarantees Robert Griffin, Justin Blackmon and everyone other than Andrew Luck and Matt Kalil will be available.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/25/11 10:34 PM
Thank you so much. This is helpful to me. In addition to this.. on the other draft thread there is a post citing ESPN Stats & Information letting us know that if we lose to the squealers and the Vikes beat Chicago.. we are on the # 3 spot.
I assume that means if we lose AND the Vikes lose we are # 4
Hmm.. I never want to lose to the damn squealers.
I assume that means if we lose AND the Vikes lose we are # 4
Hmm.. I never want to lose to the damn squealers.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/25/11 11:40 PM
If we can get to 3, it really increases the odds of a trade up for 1. According to the trusty value chart
#1 = 3000pts
#3 = 2200
#24= 740
Throw in our 4th worth a 100 pts and wo hoo. Teams tend to stay fairly close to the chart.
#1 = 3000pts
#3 = 2200
#24= 740
Throw in our 4th worth a 100 pts and wo hoo. Teams tend to stay fairly close to the chart.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 01:04 AM
Quote:
If the Browns lose on Sunday, they will pick 3rd or 4th. A Minnesota victory over the Bears gives us the 3rd pick and all but guarantees Robert Griffin, Justin Blackmon and everyone other than Andrew Luck and Matt Kalil will be available.
That's not true, we would still be five if Indy wins?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 03:27 AM
Yeah if Indy beats Jax we will still be behind the Jags.
So our scenarios are:
1) Browns lose + Minny wins + Jax wins = we pick 3rd
2) Browns lose + Minny wins + Jax loses = we pick 4th (behind Jax but ahead of Minny)
3) Browns lose + Minny loses + Jax loses = we pick 5th just like now
4) Browns lose + Minny loses + Jax wins = we pick 4th (behind Minny but ahead of Jax)
5) Browns win....hah yeah right, nevermind!
Oh and the poster who mentioned that teams with the same record flip flop their spots every other round was correct.
So for instance right now Jax, us and Tampa are all 4-11 and would pick 4/5/6 in the first round based on SoS. Then in the 2nd round Tampa would get pick 36, we would get 37 and Jax would get 38. Then in Round 3 it flips back to Rd 1 order etc etc (not counting end of round compensation picks of course).
So our scenarios are:
1) Browns lose + Minny wins + Jax wins = we pick 3rd
2) Browns lose + Minny wins + Jax loses = we pick 4th (behind Jax but ahead of Minny)
3) Browns lose + Minny loses + Jax loses = we pick 5th just like now
4) Browns lose + Minny loses + Jax wins = we pick 4th (behind Minny but ahead of Jax)
5) Browns win....hah yeah right, nevermind!
Oh and the poster who mentioned that teams with the same record flip flop their spots every other round was correct.
So for instance right now Jax, us and Tampa are all 4-11 and would pick 4/5/6 in the first round based on SoS. Then in the 2nd round Tampa would get pick 36, we would get 37 and Jax would get 38. Then in Round 3 it flips back to Rd 1 order etc etc (not counting end of round compensation picks of course).
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 10:19 AM
Unless one of the teams in question finishes up on Monday, by Sunday afternoon we will at lest know our draft position.
At lest then we will be able to speculate knowing the top of the draft draft order.
Where our Falcon's pick finally settles will take a few more weeks.
At lest then we will be able to speculate knowing the top of the draft draft order.
Where our Falcon's pick finally settles will take a few more weeks.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 11:04 AM
Quote:
If we can get to 3, it really increases the odds of a trade up for 1. According to the trusty value chart
#1 = 3000pts
#3 = 2200
#24= 740
Throw in our 4th worth a 100 pts and wo hoo. Teams tend to stay fairly close to the chart.
Route for Minny to Win...And Indy...
We get 4 and deal with the Rams...
Jax and Minny Win and we get 3 and deal with Indy...
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 11:29 AM
I wiil say I don't care what the value chart says, we won't be able to swap picks and hand over a 4th rounder to make the move.
There will be teams wanting to swap picks and future picks....we are going to have to give up both 1st rounders.
There will be teams wanting to swap picks and future picks....we are going to have to give up both 1st rounders.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 01:28 PM
If we make it to the 3rd spot and Luck would only cost us both firsts, I'm all for that one.
It would also be a huge win for Indy who wouldn't have to deal with the idea of having to cut Manning or spend the first you desperately need on a bench rider and secure a second first in the process.
If we can only make it to #4 and we have to toss in our 4th round pick too, still a good deal. IMO
It's dipping into next years picks that I'm opposed to.
It would also be a huge win for Indy who wouldn't have to deal with the idea of having to cut Manning or spend the first you desperately need on a bench rider and secure a second first in the process.
If we can only make it to #4 and we have to toss in our 4th round pick too, still a good deal. IMO
It's dipping into next years picks that I'm opposed to.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 02:10 PM
I agree about not dipping into next years draft to get Luck, but I really think the point is moot. The Colts are going to take Luck. Manning will be 36 next year, coming off neck surgery for an injury that may or may not be recurring. Anyone who has had spinal column / neck / nerve injuries knows how nasty they are. We also don't know if there are any structural weaknesses from Manning's injury that may risk his quality of life if he takes another shot. Best case for the Colts is Manning can play 2-3 more years at a high level, with Luck on the sidelines soaking it all in. Worst case, Luck is their starting QB next September. The truth is it probably ends up somewhere in between those extremes.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 02:17 PM
Gotta root hard for New Orleans tonight for 2 reasons...
1) Atlanta's pick even though it's dictated by playoff finish...
2) Ties NO with Frisco so Frisco has to play hard versus the Rams Sunday...
If we want a chance at Luck we need Rams losing and Indy winning...Gives us the 4 spot with a Minny W...And a chance to talk to the Rams...The 5 spot with a Minny L...
Alternatively...Indy losing and Minny winning gives us the 3 spot and an interesting scenario...
Luck will go #1...
Kalil or Blackmon #2...
We sit with RGIII to mortgage off...To Snyder???...Need Skins to lose...
Go down to 7...
2013 1st Rounder
2012 2nd rounder
1) Atlanta's pick even though it's dictated by playoff finish...
2) Ties NO with Frisco so Frisco has to play hard versus the Rams Sunday...
If we want a chance at Luck we need Rams losing and Indy winning...Gives us the 4 spot with a Minny W...And a chance to talk to the Rams...The 5 spot with a Minny L...
Alternatively...Indy losing and Minny winning gives us the 3 spot and an interesting scenario...
Luck will go #1...
Kalil or Blackmon #2...
We sit with RGIII to mortgage off...To Snyder???...Need Skins to lose...
Go down to 7...
2013 1st Rounder
2012 2nd rounder
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 02:23 PM
Quote:
If we want a chance at Luck we need Rams losing and Indy winning...Gives us the 4 spot with a Minny W...And a chance to talk to the Rams...The 5 spot with a Minny L...
Where do you get this. According to an ESPN article, we can't pick lower than 4 as long as we lose to the Steelers
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/38888/draftwatch-browns-move-up-again
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 02:25 PM
It will take both firsts and our 4th to equal the 3000 pts.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 02:38 PM
The Colts only have 6.5 mil in cap space and they owe 28 mil to Manning in March. If they hope to sign some of their FA's in 2012, not to mention the incoming rookies, I'm not sure they can afford to pay Luck to sit on the bench. All three of their starting WR's are UFA's.
WR - Pierre Garcon - UFA
WR - Anthony Gonzalez - UFA
WR - Reggie Wayne - UFA
OT - Ryan Diem - UFA
DL - Robert Mathis - UFA
I don't think if they keep Manning they go after Luck. If they cut Manning, going for Luck is a sure thing.
WR - Pierre Garcon - UFA
WR - Anthony Gonzalez - UFA
WR - Reggie Wayne - UFA
OT - Ryan Diem - UFA
DL - Robert Mathis - UFA
I don't think if they keep Manning they go after Luck. If they cut Manning, going for Luck is a sure thing.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 02:50 PM
I was just going by what I heard their owner (Irsay) say on ESPN radio, that the Colts have the means under the cap to both keep Manning and pay Luck. I don't know what the effect would be re: Wayne, Garcon, etc.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 02:53 PM
Hopefully they have to let a couple guys go in FA. The Colts play a 4-3 so I imagine he would fit in on our DL.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 02:54 PM
It should be pretty obvious to everyone by the time free agency is over with which was the pendulum is swinging for the Colts. Until then it's all just wild and rampant speculation from fans and talking heads and lies and damn lies from team management.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 03:15 PM
Quote:
Route for Minny to Win...And Indy...
We get 4 and deal with the Rams...
Jax and Minny Win and we get 3 and deal with Indy...
We still need JAX to win, and not Indy
The whole "root for Indy to win" thing, is based on the (dumb) assumption that Indy will take Luck (when their GM basically came out and said they wouldn't), and that St. Louis would not take Luck (which I think is even more possible with a new regime and with Bradford's struggles)
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 03:17 PM
Irsay also said that he paid Manning 26M to sit this year. If thats true, I can't see them cutting him now. Good teams seem to find a way to keep their core intact without mortgaging the future, whether its through restructuring existing contracts or cutting off dead wood. For instance, I could see them letting Wayne, Mathis, and maybe a couple other aging vets go in order to keep Manning, Garcon and to draft Luck.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 03:19 PM
Indy needs the #1 pick for us to have a chance at Luck, IMO.
Indy will have a choice to make. Take Luck and be a sure contender for the next 10 years, or go all-in with Peyton Manning and try to win a Super Bowl or two NOW.
IMO, if you can win now, you always win now.
If they go that route, they'll be looking to unload that pick to get as much help as they can RIGHT NOW.
We are the only team in need of a Quarterback that can offer two first round picks THIS YEAR.
That's our best chance of landing Luck.
I've officially predicted that we end up with Luck by giving up both 1's and our 2 this year.
Indy will have a choice to make. Take Luck and be a sure contender for the next 10 years, or go all-in with Peyton Manning and try to win a Super Bowl or two NOW.
IMO, if you can win now, you always win now.
If they go that route, they'll be looking to unload that pick to get as much help as they can RIGHT NOW.
We are the only team in need of a Quarterback that can offer two first round picks THIS YEAR.
That's our best chance of landing Luck.
I've officially predicted that we end up with Luck by giving up both 1's and our 2 this year.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 05:05 PM
Other than the neck issue, Manning really has never been injured. It is conceivable that he plays another 4 or 5 years and at a high level. Its not like you are taking an Aaron Rogers at 17 to develop for the future. If they want to groom Manning's successor, take a 2nd or 3rd round quarterback.
You would be taking a day 1 NFL ready Quarterback just to sit and watch Peyton play quarterback. Meanwhile you just lost most of your receiving options via free agency but damn you have a great backup quarterback. I think there is very little chance the Colts would draft luck and not trade him.
You would be taking a day 1 NFL ready Quarterback just to sit and watch Peyton play quarterback. Meanwhile you just lost most of your receiving options via free agency but damn you have a great backup quarterback. I think there is very little chance the Colts would draft luck and not trade him.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 06:48 PM
Quote:
IMO, if you can win now, you always win now.
Cleveland, yes. Indy, no.
Cleveland is undeniably a football town. There is no other place that is MORE a football town than Cleveland. There are others on par but none supercedes.
Indianapolis is more of a basketball town and they take great pride in their Hoosiers. If Indy had had the Cleveland experience since 1998 do you doubt one iota that there would be rampant blackouts, just like Cincinatti? Actually it'd probably be worse than Cinci.
If I'm the GM or Owner of the Colts I HAVE TO think about the long term viability of the franchise. It's imperative to have a good product on the field or the people just won't come like they show up in Cleveland.
If they do accept a trade offer for Luck they are really playing with fire.
I was really hoping the Rams would land at #1. We have a much better proposition landing Luck there. Bradford can be a Top 5 QB in this league and I'd love to have him here. I think St. Louis loves him too though and would love a draft bonanza to surround him with. I certainly would do that if I were them!
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 07:42 PM
JK,
I really wanted us to win against Baltimore would have only moved us down a couple spots probably to about 7 and all this trade the future and the farm for an unproven QB that everyone thinks will come here with so many holes and light the place up will be lining up on the 480 bridge come game 4 with Shurmur running the show.
So now once again Im rooting for us to beat the steelers (althuogh I highly doubt that happens). We draft in the top 10 and should be able to find a good CB/WR/OL combo help with our first 3 picks and call it a day without hearing how the Browns gave up way to much to move up into the #1 slot.
Hecterts a smart cookie and I wouldnt be suprised at all to see him trade down from the 4th slot if that is were we land. If we trade up it will be Holgram making the call to do so and I dont trust Holgram to make any picks.
All IMHO.
I really wanted us to win against Baltimore would have only moved us down a couple spots probably to about 7 and all this trade the future and the farm for an unproven QB that everyone thinks will come here with so many holes and light the place up will be lining up on the 480 bridge come game 4 with Shurmur running the show.
So now once again Im rooting for us to beat the steelers (althuogh I highly doubt that happens). We draft in the top 10 and should be able to find a good CB/WR/OL combo help with our first 3 picks and call it a day without hearing how the Browns gave up way to much to move up into the #1 slot.
Hecterts a smart cookie and I wouldnt be suprised at all to see him trade down from the 4th slot if that is were we land. If we trade up it will be Holgram making the call to do so and I dont trust Holgram to make any picks.
All IMHO.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 08:47 PM
Quote:
JK,
I really wanted us to win against Baltimore would have only moved us down a couple spots probably to about 7 and all this trade the future and the farm for an unproven QB that everyone thinks will come here with so many holes and light the place up will be lining up on the 480 bridge come game 4 with Shurmur running the show.
So now once again Im rooting for us to beat the steelers (althuogh I highly doubt that happens). We draft in the top 10 and should be able to find a good CB/WR/OL combo help with our first 3 picks and call it a day without hearing how the Browns gave up way to much to move up into the #1 slot.
Hecterts a smart cookie and I wouldnt be suprised at all to see him trade down from the 4th slot if that is were we land. If we trade up it will be Holgram making the call to do so and I dont trust Holgram to make any picks.
All IMHO.
I have absolutely no idea whom "Hecterts" or "Holgram" are...but maybe those guys can replace Heckert and Holmgren and finally bring us a winner.
Go figure the guy who doesn't even know who is in our FO is a part of the anti-trade up for Luck camp
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 08:57 PM
5 yard penalty for spelling-smack. 1st and 15.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 09:01 PM
lol yeah was tryping pretty fast probably not the only error the spelling police will find. The point is that I dont trust Holmgren to make our picks. They took those duties away from him in seattle for a reason. The same reason we took them away from Mangini.
I do trust Heckert with those picks and hope he doesnt get over ruled in this draft.
If Luck falls to us I have no problem with us taking him but giving up 3 to 5 picks for an unproven QB is not what I would want to see.
NE stockpiles picks every year and just reloads we need to get to that point and now is not the time to be giving away picks to move up 2 or 3 spots. Again IMHO.
The point is that I dont trust Holmgren to make our picks. They took those duties away from him in seattle for a reason. The same reason we took them away from Mangini.I do trust Heckert with those picks and hope he doesnt get over ruled in this draft.
If Luck falls to us I have no problem with us taking him but giving up 3 to 5 picks for an unproven QB is not what I would want to see.
NE stockpiles picks every year and just reloads we need to get to that point and now is not the time to be giving away picks to move up 2 or 3 spots. Again IMHO.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 09:08 PM
Quote:
NE stockpiles picks every year and just reloads
New England can do that, because they don't need the picks right now. Why can they get by without the draft picks? Because they can get by with mediocre talent, because they have an elite Quarterback in Tom Brady. For us to get to the point New England is at, we need the elite QB. Andrew Luck is that.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 09:42 PM
Quote:
I think there is very little chance the Colts would draft luck and not trade him.
I'm of the opinion that the Colts wouldn't be drafting Luck but will be trading back. I think that a team like Washington and an owner like Snyder would be willing to give up the farm to draft Luck because of the hype surrounding him. Anyone thinking that the Colts won't be receiving offers if they have the #1 pick are just nuts and that they won't be smart enough to work the calls against one another?
If they overplay their hand and end up making the selection, they could simply say that Luck was their man all along but that they were willing to field offers but that none met the price that they were willing to sell at.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 09:48 PM
Quote:Quote:
NE stockpiles picks every year and just reloads
New England can do that, because they don't need the picks right now. Why can they get by without the draft picks? Because they can get by with mediocre talent, because they have an elite Quarterback in Tom Brady. For us to get to the point New England is at, we need the elite QB. Andrew Luck is that.
Exactly.
They plug in serviceable receivers, plug in RB from all depths of the draft, and don't play defense worth a damn ...... yet they are 12-3.
They got Wes Welker, who was a 400-700 yard receiver in Miami ..... and turned him into an 1100 yard guy overnight. They pulled Ron Gronkowski out of thin air and turned him into a 1200 yards, 15 TD monster. They bring in Deion Branch and plug him in, and he produces. They have a bunch of running backs whose names have most people going "Who???"
Their OL is not a collection of 1st round picks.I believe that they have 1 forst roudner, 2 seconds, and a bunch of 4th/5th/later/UDFA/signed from nowhere types.
They plug in a guy like Randy Moss and Brady has a great year. They trade away a guy like Moss and Brady has a great year. They sign an undersized KR/PR from Miami named Wes Welker and he becomes a weapon.
The Patriots defense is last in the league in total defense. They are ranked 9 spots below us in scoring defense. They are bottom 3rd of the league in running the ball. They have one premiere aspect to their team, and that is that they have a superstar QB who can lead them to wins. Take Tom Brady off that team and they are probably fighting to get to ,500, with a bunch of players no one has ever heard of.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 09:51 PM
Quote:Quote:
I think there is very little chance the Colts would draft luck and not trade him.
I'm of the opinion that the Colts wouldn't be drafting Luck but will be trading back. I think that a team like Washington and an owner like Snyder would be willing to give up the farm to draft Luck because of the hype surrounding him. Anyone thinking that the Colts won't be receiving offers if they have the #1 pick are just nuts and that they won't be smart enough to work the calls against one another?
If they overplay their hand and end up making the selection, they could simply say that Luck was their man all along but that they were willing to field offers but that none met the price that they were willing to sell at.
If they trade the Luck pick they will have massive protests from their fans and season ticket holders.
With Luck they can sell Manning as the present and Luck as the near future. Without him they are selling Manning ....... maybe ........
They would be nuts to trade the pick. I hope they do, and I hope that we can trade up to get it ...... but I'm not holding my breath that it will ever happen. Indy knows the value of a superstar QB and they aren't going to pass one up when he falls into their lap.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 10:01 PM
Quote:
I'm of the opinion that the Colts wouldn't be drafting Luck
Irsay has come right out and said that if there was a QB they liked that they would draft him. Now what he didnt say was that Luck was that QB however.
Quote:
Irsay also said the Colts would take a quarterback, Manning’s successor, if the right one is available in April’s draft.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-colts-manning
This is the new NFL. IMO the rookie wage scale is going to set theoretical position values and old rules of drafting right out the window.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 10:02 PM
Though NE has had a lot of draft picks in recent memory, some of them aren't panning out. They move guys in and out all the time. They have some core players that are running the team. Some guy named Brady seems to got it going on.
But I understand and like the point. They build through the draft, and are very well run in that regard. We can stockpile all the picks we want, but if they all turn out to be David Veikune and the rest of the 2009 draft, then it's all irrelevant. We got one player, and it was the first pick. All those picks we got for him turned into pretty much nothing. We have an oft dinged, inconsistent WR still on the roster, that's about it.
But I understand and like the point. They build through the draft, and are very well run in that regard. We can stockpile all the picks we want, but if they all turn out to be David Veikune and the rest of the 2009 draft, then it's all irrelevant. We got one player, and it was the first pick. All those picks we got for him turned into pretty much nothing. We have an oft dinged, inconsistent WR still on the roster, that's about it.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 10:08 PM
Quote:
JK,
I really wanted us to win against Baltimore would have only moved us down a couple spots probably to about 7 and all this trade the future and the farm for an unproven QB that everyone thinks will come here with so many holes and light the place up will be lining up on the 480 bridge come game 4 with Shurmur running the show.
So now once again Im rooting for us to beat the steelers (althuogh I highly doubt that happens). We draft in the top 10 and should be able to find a good CB/WR/OL combo help with our first 3 picks and call it a day without hearing how the Browns gave up way to much to move up into the #1 slot.
Hecterts a smart cookie and I wouldnt be suprised at all to see him trade down from the 4th slot if that is were we land. If we trade up it will be Holgram making the call to do so and I dont trust Holgram to make any picks.
All IMHO.
I think I don't mind the losing at this point since it really won't matter with improving this team's view of themselves and there will be some of them gone from the team next year.
If we're drafting either 3 or 4, I don't mind it so much because it would give us a good opportunity to trade back and gain additional picks. I don't think I would trade back too far, but I would consider a trade back, especially if Blackmon is gone. I'd consider it even if Blackmon was there.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 10:27 PM
Quote:Quote:
IMO, if you can win now, you always win now.
Cleveland, yes. Indy, no.
Cleveland is undeniably a football town. There is no other place that is MORE a football town than Cleveland. There are others on par but none supercedes.
Indianapolis is more of a basketball town and they take great pride in their Hoosiers. If Indy had had the Cleveland experience since 1998 do you doubt one iota that there would be rampant blackouts, just like Cincinatti? Actually it'd probably be worse than Cinci.
If I'm the GM or Owner of the Colts I HAVE TO think about the long term viability of the franchise. It's imperative to have a good product on the field or the people just won't come like they show up in Cleveland.
If they do accept a trade offer for Luck they are really playing with fire.
I was really hoping the Rams would land at #1. We have a much better proposition landing Luck there. Bradford can be a Top 5 QB in this league and I'd love to have him here. I think St. Louis loves him too though and would love a draft bonanza to surround him with. I certainly would do that if I were them!
I live in Indiana, and have been to a few games in Indianapolis, and I can say you are wrong. Folks here LOVE their Colts.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 10:39 PM
Quote:
If they trade the Luck pick they will have massive protests from their fans and season ticket holders.
Because an unproven Andrew Luck > a 13-year veteran QB with years of service to give and who'll be a first ballot HOF inductee?
Okay. I'm with you. You've convinced me.
Quote:
With Luck they can sell Manning as the present and Luck as the near future. Without him they are selling Manning ....... maybe ........
They don't have to sell Manning. Manning is a proven commodity. The fans could see how the team had done without him as their field general. They'll have a chance at the playoffs with Manning under center and they could very well be drafting in the Top 10 (which we, as Browns fans, know all to well) for years to come.
Quote:
They would be nuts to trade the pick. I hope they do, and I hope that we can trade up to get it
Because we're a rookie QB away from making the playoffs?
Quote:
...but I'm not holding my breath that it will ever happen. Indy knows the value of a superstar QB and they aren't going to pass one up when he falls into their lap.
And if they pass on Luck and trade the pick away it'll be because they think he isn't going to be a NFL QB? I don't buy that or a moment. They may simply feel that they can take a different QB, maybe one like Nick Foles, in the draft and develop them and all the while making selections that will have the experience to make sure that he succeeds when the time comes to hand him the reins.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 10:40 PM
Quote:
Irsay has come right out and said that if there was a QB they liked that they would draft him. Now what he didnt say was that Luck was that QB however.
Not sure we can really believe anything that any team rep ever says about the draft.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 10:43 PM
Quote:
Not sure we can really believe anything that any team rep ever says about the draft.
Irsay isn't just a team rep. He's the one signing all of the paychecks for that organization.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/26/11 11:33 PM
Oh, ok then. Whatever he says before the draft must be the truth, then.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 01:40 AM
You have a point. But he has every reason to. From Favre to Rogers, and before that from Montana to Young. If you want to keep your franchise at the top its the way to go.
That aside, Ill take his word over gut feelings of posters on a Browns forum.
That aside, Ill take his word over gut feelings of posters on a Browns forum.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 02:02 AM
If I am Luck I'm praying I don't go to the Colts. With the new CBA rookies don't get that huge payday right off the bat ( at least in comparison to before). If he is dafted to sit behind Manning and Manning returns to form he could sit the bench for all of his rookie contract,then where's his pay day? If the Colts where to win a superbowl in the next year or two with Manning half lucks career could be over before he ever sees the field in Indianapolis.
No. I think there is a very real possibility that Luck does not play for Indy unless Manning is gone first.And I don't see the Colts getting rid of Manning until he is ready to go.
No. I think there is a very real possibility that Luck does not play for Indy unless Manning is gone first.And I don't see the Colts getting rid of Manning until he is ready to go.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 02:33 AM
Well living in Indy and with the new staduim and the playoffs extpected every year I can see why. Let them go a decade with only 1 playoff birth and mostly 4 win seasons and then see how the people support the team?
Cinci is a win away from a playoff birth and begging to sell out a game.
The Browns are going to win 4 games (which is 1 game less then the last 2 years) and probably will sell out next season.
Big difference.
Cinci is a win away from a playoff birth and begging to sell out a game.
The Browns are going to win 4 games (which is 1 game less then the last 2 years) and probably will sell out next season.
Big difference.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 05:24 AM
Andrew Luck is a more polished version of Aaron Rodgers when he was coming out of college. Which I think hurts him, because the reason Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the NFL today, yet was not drafted #1 overall, was because he was so unpolished coming out. When his throwing motion got fixed, he gained a ton of arm strength. Can't do that with Luck. However Andrew can still obviously be a top 5 QB.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 07:17 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
IMO, if you can win now, you always win now.
Cleveland, yes. Indy, no.
Cleveland is undeniably a football town. There is no other place that is MORE a football town than Cleveland. There are others on par but none supercedes.
Indianapolis is more of a basketball town and they take great pride in their Hoosiers. If Indy had had the Cleveland experience since 1998 do you doubt one iota that there would be rampant blackouts, just like Cincinatti? Actually it'd probably be worse than Cinci.
If I'm the GM or Owner of the Colts I HAVE TO think about the long term viability of the franchise. It's imperative to have a good product on the field or the people just won't come like they show up in Cleveland.
If they do accept a trade offer for Luck they are really playing with fire.
I was really hoping the Rams would land at #1. We have a much better proposition landing Luck there. Bradford can be a Top 5 QB in this league and I'd love to have him here. I think St. Louis loves him too though and would love a draft bonanza to surround him with. I certainly would do that if I were them!
I live in Indiana, and have been to a few games in Indianapolis, and I can say you are wrong. Folks here LOVE their Colts.
I've been to a few Colts game myself when I worked for a startup backed by Simon Property Group. We had Xmas parties and other get togethers and we often went to St. Elmo's and Colts games.
IMO you're overestimating the fan base.
If Indy had the same experience Cleveland has had the last two decades I believe there'd be a stark difference in the enthusiasm around the franchise.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 11:01 AM
I have family in Indianapolis. From what I recall.. Pre-Manning the colts weren't especially popular. It was Reggie Miller and the Pacers that were Indianapolis' favorite team. Much more Colt love ever since they got Manning and became a watchable team.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 11:13 AM
This is gonna be interesting to say the least...We'll know more bout' 4:15 Sunday...
We'll also know FOR SURE which way Irsay's gonna go in about 9 weeks...One link says the $28M Bonus is due 3/3/12...Another says the end of February...If it's PAID there's no way Indy would take Luck...The pick's open for negotiations...
There is ZERO chance that a QB the caliber of Luck is holding a clipboard for even one year...
We'll also know FOR SURE which way Irsay's gonna go in about 9 weeks...One link says the $28M Bonus is due 3/3/12...Another says the end of February...If it's PAID there's no way Indy would take Luck...The pick's open for negotiations...
There is ZERO chance that a QB the caliber of Luck is holding a clipboard for even one year...
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 11:23 AM
I keep hearing the Feb. date.
Manning is a big topic here in Tennessee, and the word going around is the Colt's are not going to pay the bonus.
At least that is the talk I hear on the local talk radio show...and those guys seem to check things pretty well before running with a story.
I agree, that will be a big indicator, though with the new wage system, it wouldn't preclude the Colts from going qb if they get the first pick.
While it would be a big chunk off the cap tied up at the position, I don't think it would be a killer....they are going to pay someone that money.
I know you want some immediate returns, but if you can wait a few years for production, it would be at QB.
Also, if manning comes back strong, the Colts have the option of trading him, and I would assume it would at least be a decent pick where as it stands now, they get zip.
Manning is a big topic here in Tennessee, and the word going around is the Colt's are not going to pay the bonus.
At least that is the talk I hear on the local talk radio show...and those guys seem to check things pretty well before running with a story.
I agree, that will be a big indicator, though with the new wage system, it wouldn't preclude the Colts from going qb if they get the first pick.
While it would be a big chunk off the cap tied up at the position, I don't think it would be a killer....they are going to pay someone that money.
I know you want some immediate returns, but if you can wait a few years for production, it would be at QB.
Also, if manning comes back strong, the Colts have the option of trading him, and I would assume it would at least be a decent pick where as it stands now, they get zip.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 11:43 AM
And in other news...
Atlanta losing last night sets them up to have a meaningless game with TB Sunday...
Ramifications???
They are locked into the 6 seed which means they will go to New Orleans or Frisco based on which gets the 3 spot...
They are a ONE & DONE playoff team...
Our Atlanta pick will be between 21-24...
Atlanta losing last night sets them up to have a meaningless game with TB Sunday...
Ramifications???
They are locked into the 6 seed which means they will go to New Orleans or Frisco based on which gets the 3 spot...
They are a ONE & DONE playoff team...
Our Atlanta pick will be between 21-24...
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 12:01 PM
Quote:
If I am Luck I'm praying I don't go to the Colts. With the new CBA rookies don't get that huge payday right off the bat ( at least in comparison to before). If he is dafted to sit behind Manning and Manning returns to form he could sit the bench for all of his rookie contract,then where's his pay day? If the Colts where to win a superbowl in the next year or two with Manning half lucks career could be over before he ever sees the field in Indianapolis.
No. I think there is a very real possibility that Luck does not play for Indy unless Manning is gone first.And I don't see the Colts getting rid of Manning until he is ready to go.
Luck will sign with Indy if they select him or he'll sit a year and get nothing. He'll get taken next year, but with a year out of football, he'll get drafted further back than #1 overall.
Maybe the Colts draft him and then trade him during the draft to another team. It's a no-loss situation if they're comfy taking Luck at #1 and allowing him to sit a couple or three years. If he doesn't want to be there, the Colts can trade him to Washington or Seattle or Miami or Arizona after selecting him.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 12:06 PM
Quote:
And in other news...
Atlanta losing last night sets them up to have a meaningless game with TB Sunday...
Ramifications???
They are locked into the 6 seed which means they will go to New Orleans or Frisco based on which gets the 3 spot...
They are a ONE & DONE playoff team...
Our Atlanta pick will be between 21-24...
That's a rather good look at things. I like it.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 12:28 PM
Quote:
Luck will sign with Indy if they select him or he'll sit a year and get nothing. He'll get taken next year, but with a year out of football, he'll get drafted further back than #1 overall.
Agree with the first part. BS on the second. If Luck is coming out, he'll play where he ends up. Maybe he and his team will engineer a Manning-esqe trade, but sitting out a year will not be an option. Guaranteed.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 01:31 PM
Good...Good...Good...
NO needs Frisco to Lose to get the 2 spot and a Bye...Not happenin'...
Atlanta goes to NO for the Wild Card game...Excellento...
NO needs Frisco to Lose to get the 2 spot and a Bye...Not happenin'...
Atlanta goes to NO for the Wild Card game...Excellento...
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 03:14 PM
Everyone should be hoping for a healthy Peyton Manning. Irsay stated clearly that if he could pay Peyton 30 mil to sit this year, he can afford to pay him next year. He also clearly stated that if Peyton played in 2012 it would be for the Colts.
Bottom line, which would you rather have? A really good backup quarterback guaranteed to sit from 2-5 years behind Manning or Blackmon and Alfonzo Dennard.
Bottom line, which would you rather have? A really good backup quarterback guaranteed to sit from 2-5 years behind Manning or Blackmon and Alfonzo Dennard.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 03:20 PM
Quote:
Bottom line, which would you rather have? A really good backup quarterback guaranteed to sit from 2-5 years behind Manning or Blackmon and Alfonzo Dennard.
Me? I take - A really good backup quarterback guaranteed to sit from 2-5 years behind Manning.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 03:23 PM
You always win now.
Your opinion is flawed because we've gone so long without a Quarterback.
If you were a Colts fan and you know that you can bring Manning back next year and use extra picks to add talent around him and try to win another Super Bowl or two over the next five years before Manning retires, I bet your opinion would be a lot different.
Your opinion is flawed because we've gone so long without a Quarterback.
If you were a Colts fan and you know that you can bring Manning back next year and use extra picks to add talent around him and try to win another Super Bowl or two over the next five years before Manning retires, I bet your opinion would be a lot different.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 03:23 PM
Quote:Quote:
It occurs to me, what if the Colts decide Manning is long in the tooth, has an injury, & they see Palmer fetches 2 firsts..
They might be thinking, lets get 2 firsts, a 2nd and a 3rd for Manning and then draft Luck?
I would be less surprised if I saw the re-animated corpse of Walt Disney doing the cha cha slide in my front yard.
I think brownsfansince79 remembers his words to me from Tue Oct 18 2011 02:39 PM...
Boy.. Walt does quite the cha cha doesn't he?
I said this would happen even before Dungy or anyone on BSPN. Let me pat myself on the back for a min here..
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 03:28 PM
LOL!
Still hasn't happened yet, though. So Walt is still firmly encased in that cryogenics chamber, or wherever he is.
Still hasn't happened yet, though. So Walt is still firmly encased in that cryogenics chamber, or wherever he is.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 03:41 PM
Quote:
You always win now.
Your opinion is flawed because we've gone so long without a Quarterback.
If you were a Colts fan and you know that you can bring Manning back next year and use extra picks to add talent around him and try to win another Super Bowl or two over the next five years before Manning retires, I bet your opinion would be a lot different.
Nope (I know it wasn't my comment that made this reply, but just jumping in).
I've said it on here before and nobody seems to have the counter argument. If Luck grades out to be the best thing since sliced bread and a surefire lock HOFamer, people say you do everything possible to get him, you don't pass the chance at taking a guy that can play 13-15 years and elevate your franchise to great heights. Right?
If so, why would the Colts pass on him? That statement works for them too.
See, if Manning was 7 years younger and coming off a healthy season, I could see the argument on passing. But Manning is a 13 year pro that is coming off a missed season after neck surgery. I wouldn't think there's a high probability that Manning will dominate for 2-4 more years. I would be nervous as hell hitching my wagon to Manning as the Colts GM.
Do me a favor and answer this one question. Would the Colts GM go back in time and trade away Manning for 3-4 first rounders and 1-2 second rounders in 1998 knowing how much of an impact Manning had on the franchise?
If Luck grades out to be that guy, 12-15 years, Pro Bowl every year, deep playoff runs, Super Bowl MVP, face of the franchise and sells millions of jerseys......NOBODY should pass on him for any number of 1st rounders. Add in Manning injury season and surgery, his age, his cost and I'm not sure how anyone can think you give up Luck.
And as far as "winning now". If Luck can deliver the same career as Manning, there's more chance to win over the next 15 years than going all in with Manning in the next two years. Plus, all the talent you're infusing with the accumluated picks by trading away Luck are all rookies. They'll take 1-2-3 years to become consistant all pro's (assuming you can find the all pro's in the draft).
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 03:47 PM
Quote:
Do me a favor and answer this one question. Would the Colts GM go back in time and trade away Manning for 3-4 first rounders and 1-2 second rounders in 1998 knowing how much of an impact Manning had on the franchise?
No.
But the Colts in 1998 didn't already have one of the Top 5 QB's of All-Time on their roster and weren't ready to win and win BIG now.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 03:52 PM
How are they ready to win big now? They won 2 games all year without Manning. We won 4. By definition, we're closer to winning big then they are.
And again, Manning is old, injured and will cost $28 million this next season.
Who's to say they don't do both? Manning plays for 1-3 more years while Luck sits and learns. I mean, what would happen if Manning breaks his leg in the middle of year 2? As of now, they lose out and need to find a QB. By having Luck there as a #2 QB, they wouldn't have to go through a season like this.
It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that Luck will be a Brown next season. He won't.
And again, Manning is old, injured and will cost $28 million this next season.
Who's to say they don't do both? Manning plays for 1-3 more years while Luck sits and learns. I mean, what would happen if Manning breaks his leg in the middle of year 2? As of now, they lose out and need to find a QB. By having Luck there as a #2 QB, they wouldn't have to go through a season like this.
It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that Luck will be a Brown next season. He won't.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 04:03 PM
I agree. Unless Luck demands a trade, I would keep both. Let manning play for a year or two, and give luck the job afterwards. All I know, is they would be idiots to pass on him. Even ST Louis if they got the first pick. I would trade bradford in a new york minute. You don't pass on guys like Luck.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 04:06 PM
Quote:
You always win now.
Your opinion is flawed because we've gone so long without a Quarterback.
If you were a Colts fan and you know that you can bring Manning back next year and use extra picks to add talent around him and try to win another Super Bowl or two over the next five years before Manning retires, I bet your opinion would be a lot different.
Honestly, you could trade that pick, for a ton of picks. And do what the Patriots do, because they always seem to have 2 1's, and just keep trading one of those picks for a 1 the following year. Eventually you can either draft or create a package to trade for a QB. While Luck is one of the biggest prospect QB's, there will be other guys in the following years.
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer if you're Indy, but it's an option. You could honestly have your cake and eat it too, if you trade that pick and get a ridiculous package for Luck, and use part of that package 3 or 4 years from now to draft a franchise guy, all while still bolstering your current roster for Peyton Manning. Win/Win.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 04:13 PM
Why did they suck without Manning? Why did they go out and get another QB instead of playing their Backup?
All because Peyton takes every single snap in practice and the backup only works with the scout team. Painter never ran their offense lol.
By my way of thinking it just makes no sense for them to take Luck if Manning is capable of playing.
Personally, I would rather draft Claiborne with our 1st and Tannehill with our 1b and get our DE with the 2nd rounder.
All because Peyton takes every single snap in practice and the backup only works with the scout team. Painter never ran their offense lol.
By my way of thinking it just makes no sense for them to take Luck if Manning is capable of playing.
Personally, I would rather draft Claiborne with our 1st and Tannehill with our 1b and get our DE with the 2nd rounder.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 04:48 PM
J/C
if it were me id take luck. Who better to groom the "next Manning" then Manning. Tell Luck he's learning behind him for 2 years, then he starts. Make Manning the OC and he already has his QB.
if it were me id take luck. Who better to groom the "next Manning" then Manning. Tell Luck he's learning behind him for 2 years, then he starts. Make Manning the OC and he already has his QB.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 05:22 PM
jc...
I absolutely cannot see a scenario in which Manning gets traded. He's either a Colt next year or he gets cut outright. Between the Colts or another team paying his $28 million option and the massive cap hits the Colts take if they unload him, it just doesn't appear to be that financially viable. I'm sure Jim Irsay can afford to pay him just like he said, but that's not really relevant because he can have all the money in the world, but he still can't exceed that salary cap.
I absolutely cannot see a scenario in which Manning gets traded. He's either a Colt next year or he gets cut outright. Between the Colts or another team paying his $28 million option and the massive cap hits the Colts take if they unload him, it just doesn't appear to be that financially viable. I'm sure Jim Irsay can afford to pay him just like he said, but that's not really relevant because he can have all the money in the world, but he still can't exceed that salary cap.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 05:30 PM
I'd drive to the airport to pick Manning up if he got cut. I'm not sayin he'd come here, but I'd still drive to the airport.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 05:45 PM
if he is healthy, and indy wants to play luck, Indy will want to get value for manning. I'm sure they could work around the contract, not to mention several teams definitely would be interested. It's not like manning forgot to play football. He's not a donovan mcnabb, where his stats have plummeted the past few years. If he's cleared by the doctors, he could play another 4-5 years.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 05:58 PM
If Indy trades Manning, both his $20 million signing bonus and $28 million option bonus (minus the 1/5 of each that figured into his 2011 cap hit) accelerate and his 2012 cap hit is over $38 million. Same thing if they cut him after his bonus is paid. If they pay the option, he's a Colt for the long haul.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:05 PM
Quote:
jc...
I absolutely cannot see a scenario in which Manning gets traded. He's either a Colt next year or he gets cut outright. Between the Colts or another team paying his $28 million option and the massive cap hits the Colts take if they unload him, it just doesn't appear to be that financially viable. I'm sure Jim Irsay can afford to pay him just like he said, but that's not really relevant because he can have all the money in the world, but he still can't exceed that salary cap.
I agree if they think Luck is the greatest thing since sliced breed, (or the BPA) that they will stay pat and select Luck to groom behind their HOF QB and be set for the future, because it's the hardest position in football to obtain. Filling out the rest of their roster can be done as they have for the past decade and drafting at the bottom of the Draft to boot.
Adding a box of crackers will not == a ham sandwich.
== < the same as.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:13 PM
That's why we just gotta hope the Colts beat the Jaguars and the Rams lose.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:20 PM
Quote:
If Indy trades Manning, both his $20 million signing bonus and $28 million option bonus (minus the 1/5 of each that figured into his 2011 cap hit) accelerate and his 2012 cap hit is over $38 million. Same thing if they cut him after his bonus is paid. If they pay the option, he's a Colt for the long haul.
This is a pretty big point. Again, just like STL, I can't see Indy keeping Manning (for what they are paying him) and then drafting Luck. Cap-space wise, that's a TON of money into one position.
Honestly, i think the question about drafting Luck is going to come down to Minnesota and how much faith they have in Ponder- who has played well at times and was a 1st round pick last year.
If they are ok with Ponder, then that leaves either the Jags or Browns and I'm willing to bet the Jags win against the Colts next week, leaving the Browns at #4.
So barring a blockbuster trade, I can realistically see the Browns having an opportunity to draft Luck.
Of course, if teams who need a QB are smart and want Luck, they won't offer EITHER Indy or MN a trade....because I'm convinced neither wants to draft Luck and neither will. They should call their bluffs and wait until the 3rd pick to dangle the carrot to MN. I could see someone like Pete Carroll going all out for Luck at #3.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:24 PM
Luck is going #1
If whoever is picking #1 doesn't want Luck, the pick will get traded.
If whoever is picking #1 doesn't want Luck, the pick will get traded.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:27 PM
Quote:
Luck is going #1
If whoever is picking #1 doesn't want Luck, the pick will get traded.
What if no one offers Indy or StL what they are asking (which will be a LOT)? Do you think either one of them will take Luck?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:31 PM
I just don't think that it will be a big issue, because by the time Luck's 4 year rookie contract expires it will be time for Manning to ride off into the sunset anyway.
After going threw the season with but one win to this point after losing Manning for the year.
I would think that it would be strong medicine against letting an opportunity to CYA and draft the top QB in the class go buy.
They have had much criticism over not CYA over the coarse of the season and rightly so imo.
After going threw the season with but one win to this point after losing Manning for the year.
I would think that it would be strong medicine against letting an opportunity to CYA and draft the top QB in the class go buy.
They have had much criticism over not CYA over the coarse of the season and rightly so imo.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:33 PM
NRTU...
I just don't get the notion everyone has of the Colts picking Andrew Luck at #1 overall, and him just holding a clipboard, doing push-ups, and eating crappy take-out in the film room 72 hours a week for a laughably wide window of, "Ohh, about 2-5 years!" The guy isn't sitting for a few years like Rodgers. I just don't see how everyone expects him to be content with not certainly knowing how soon he'll be able to play. If that were me, you can bet damn well I'd be actively altering where I land, ala Manning.
I just don't get the notion everyone has of the Colts picking Andrew Luck at #1 overall, and him just holding a clipboard, doing push-ups, and eating crappy take-out in the film room 72 hours a week for a laughably wide window of, "Ohh, about 2-5 years!" The guy isn't sitting for a few years like Rodgers. I just don't see how everyone expects him to be content with not certainly knowing how soon he'll be able to play. If that were me, you can bet damn well I'd be actively altering where I land, ala Manning.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:35 PM
If no one can meet the asking price, they will either take less or yes, take him. Both Indy and St. Louis would take him.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:40 PM
Quote:
Luck is going #1
If whoever is picking #1 doesn't want Luck, the pick will get traded.
That's the dogma.
If it's the Colts I think its about 99.9% of a certainty that they will keep the pick.
The Rams could still keep the pick and still gain more picks if they chose to trade Bradford, so that would be a pretty good win for win scenario.
If the Colts lose to Jacksonville they will have still helped us out, albeit not for an opportunity to draft Luck.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:49 PM
Has anyone thought that Shurmur and company are putting on a show for the media w/ the Colt McCoy "issue"?
I mean the guy (Shurmur) has not fully endorsed Colt by any means, which could show to other teams that we will DEFINITELY be drafting a QB in the 1st round. Could it be possible for the Browns front office to try and lure a team to make a huge trade to jump up a few spots.
I mean the guy (Shurmur) has not fully endorsed Colt by any means, which could show to other teams that we will DEFINITELY be drafting a QB in the 1st round. Could it be possible for the Browns front office to try and lure a team to make a huge trade to jump up a few spots.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:52 PM
It's that time of year - you can read ANYTHING into just about ANY action (or inaction) made by an NFL Front Office.
Simply - we won't know until it's done and everybody knows.
Simply - we won't know until it's done and everybody knows.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:52 PM
Unless you're CoachB
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 06:56 PM
Every time I hear Mortensen or Schefter talk about their sources, I always figure it's CoachB
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 07:15 PM
Quote:
Has anyone thought that Shurmur and company are putting on a show for the media w/ the Colt McCoy "issue"?
I mean the guy (Shurmur) has not fully endorsed Colt by any means, which could show to other teams that we will DEFINITELY be drafting a QB in the 1st round. Could it be possible for the Browns front office to try and lure a team to make a huge trade to jump up a few spots.
I don't think that we have to sell the rest of the League into thinking that we will be looking at drafting a QB.
We may or may not draft a QB.
much will depend on how things shake out and what their evaluation and conclusions of this current team are after the season ends.
But meh, it's never to early to start your smoke signals
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 07:36 PM
Quote:Quote:
Has anyone thought that Shurmur and company are putting on a show for the media w/ the Colt McCoy "issue"?
I mean the guy (Shurmur) has not fully endorsed Colt by any means, which could show to other teams that we will DEFINITELY be drafting a QB in the 1st round. Could it be possible for the Browns front office to try and lure a team to make a huge trade to jump up a few spots.
I don't think that we have to sell the rest of the League into thinking that we will be looking at drafting a QB.
We may or may not draft a QB.
much will depend on how things shake out and what their evaluation and conclusions of this current team are after the season ends.
But meh, it's never to early to start your smoke signals
Ahhh. That explains are crappy QBing for the last 15 years.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 07:48 PM
I wish I could find out what the dates for Free Agency is. I know the following dates:
Feb. 22-28 - NFL Scouting Combine, Indianapolis, In.
Eight regional Player Combines in different nationwide locations from late January through late March.
April 26-28 - NFL Draft 2012, New York City, N.Y.
I have to assume the date is Mid March or so?
Feb. 22-28 - NFL Scouting Combine, Indianapolis, In.
Eight regional Player Combines in different nationwide locations from late January through late March.
April 26-28 - NFL Draft 2012, New York City, N.Y.
I have to assume the date is Mid March or so?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 07:57 PM
I just hope we don't trade for bradford.
He is the 2nd most overrated QB behind Matt Ryan.
He is the 2nd most overrated QB behind Matt Ryan.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 08:01 PM
Quote:
The Rams could still keep the pick and still gain more picks if they chose to trade Bradford, so that would be a pretty good win for win scenario.
I can't see traded. In 2010 he signed a 6 year, 78m contract, with $50M guaranteed (with a potential total max of 86m). Looking at his contract details, he's been paid 2.88M (prorated 6 years) 1st year contract bonus plus 320k salary in 2010, plus 17.974 signing bonus (not prorated, 1 time hit) and 405k salary in 2011. Since in 2010 he hit his escalators, he was guaranteed another 19m (assume prorated 5 years) and has guaranteed salaries in 2012 of 1.205m, 2013 2.005m. 2014 2.805M, and 2015 of 3.605M. That adds up to his 50.2M guaranteed contract. The other 26 I cannot find, though I'd assume gets rolled into salary for the last 5 years.
This means St. Louis has put 23.459M into the kid for the first 2 years with another 26.541M still guaranteed to him. Assuming that the guaranteed salaries, along with the non guaranteed $ would move to the new team he got traded to, the Rams would still be on the hook for the remaining prorated 2.88m and the remaining prorated 19M - or a cap hit of 17.12M to cut or trade him. This would essentially mean they paid 40.579M for 2 years. The team that gets him (under my assumption a few lines above), would have roughly 36M in contract, including 9.62 guaranteed for the next 4 years.
From what I've read St. Louis is going to have a hard time with the cap next year as it is - I doubt they're willing to take that hit.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 08:21 PM
Quote:
I just hope we don't trade for bradford.
He is the 2nd most overrated QB behind Matt Ryan.
yea.. I'd honestly like to keep Colt over Bradford.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 08:25 PM
Quote:
I wish I could find out what the dates for Free Agency is. I know the following dates:
Feb. 22-28 - NFL Scouting Combine, Indianapolis, In.
Eight regional Player Combines in different nationwide locations from late January through late March.
April 26-28 - NFL Draft 2012, New York City, N.Y.
I have to assume the date is Mid March or so?
According to the CBA, "unless the parties agree otherwise, the 2011 League Year shall end no later than March 11, 2012" (Article 11, Section 5, item h). I presume from that, that the new league year, and thus free agency will start March 12, 2012.
Here's a copy of the CBA if anyone is interested: https://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/NFLCBA2011-20.pdf
[Ref-00: I created a local copy of the CBA document, edited the link to point to here]
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 08:44 PM
Thanx! I was pretty close then. Hmm March 15, I wonder if that means the reigional combines will be going on as we enter the FA period...
I think our heads are gonna be on a swivel this spring.
I think our heads are gonna be on a swivel this spring.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 09:09 PM
Peter King said sunday the rams will have the most money to spend in free agency next offseason. He was talking about Jeff Fisher going there.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 09:14 PM
Quote:
NRTU...
I just don't get the notion everyone has of the Colts picking Andrew Luck at #1 overall, and him just holding a clipboard, doing push-ups, and eating crappy take-out in the film room 72 hours a week for a laughably wide window of, "Ohh, about 2-5 years!" The guy isn't sitting for a few years like Rodgers. I just don't see how everyone expects him to be content with not certainly knowing how soon he'll be able to play. If that were me, you can bet damn well I'd be actively altering where I land, ala Manning.
I am replying to you :-)
You've got two different scenario's going on.
#1 - If Luck doesn't care where he goes, Indy will be drafting him. IMO, he would be happy to sit a few years behind Manning. He gets paid, learns from one of the best and knows the franchise's history in how they took care of the #1 guy in the huddle (money and talent support). And you're also not factoring in the likelihood of the Colts not picking up Mannings $28 million option (which might kick in for more years too - sorry, I don't know the details).
#2 - If Luck is positioning himself elsewhere because he wants to play right away (with Manning staying already set in stone), he wants to play in a different market or doesn't want to follow a legend then he'll probably get his way. But that wouldn't stop Indy from wanting to pick him.....they wounldn't be able to draft him if he won't report.
And how do you know Luck doesn't want to sit for a year or two? I'm not saying guys want to sit, but it's been shown that it can help a guy make the transition to the NFL. And it's not like there's a 100% guarantee Manning will play every game over the next 1-2-3 years anyway. He's getting older and that neck won't be perfect. He may get to play a few weeks or might just get the fulltime position if Manning's neck falls apart some random week. It's just like any other position on any other team, you're only one injury away from being the starter. You can't assume a 13-year vet with neck problems will be an ironman starter for the next 3 years.
I think it would be a fun conversation to listen to. Manning, the Colts GM, president and coach all talking about the draft and what to do (maybe even better if Manning wasn't there).
As of right now, assuming Luck doesn't orchestrate where he plays, I would bet a decent amount of cash that Luck is a Colt.
If you ask me, I'd want to play in that division. The Jags, Texans and Titans. All dome or mild temperature home stadiums...and they aren't traditional powerhouse teams. It would be nice for Luck to want to come to Cleveland but if I were him, I wouldn't want to even fly over CBS let alone play for the hometown team (cold weather, losing franchise & crazy tough division).
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 09:23 PM
I thought he said that cap room was for the 2013 season.
From what I've read, Rams have about $10M anticipated cap room next year. The could probably cut a few players (aka Jason Smith) and grab a little more room, but I don't see where they can cut that many players to make up the $17M they'd need to, then fill the team with all the players they'd need to AND sign Luck for $23-25M.
From what I've read, Rams have about $10M anticipated cap room next year. The could probably cut a few players (aka Jason Smith) and grab a little more room, but I don't see where they can cut that many players to make up the $17M they'd need to, then fill the team with all the players they'd need to AND sign Luck for $23-25M.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 09:31 PM
With all that said, the Colts are going to beat the Jaguars (who have quit) and the Rams are going to lose to the 49ers who still have something to play for. Meaning the Rams will have the #1 pick.
Rams have #1 pick = pick gets traded. And there are only two other teams that can offer what we can, the Patriots (they have their own 1st pick and the Saints 1st pick) and the Bengals (their pick and the Raiders pick). And both of those teams already have their QB's/don't have high picks we can offer. So if the front office determines they want Andrew Luck we will be the clear front runner to get him.
My only concern is if the Rams determine their need for a left tackle (Matt Kalil) is greater than the haul of picks they would receive for Luck. That would just screw everything up.
Rams have #1 pick = pick gets traded. And there are only two other teams that can offer what we can, the Patriots (they have their own 1st pick and the Saints 1st pick) and the Bengals (their pick and the Raiders pick). And both of those teams already have their QB's/don't have high picks we can offer. So if the front office determines they want Andrew Luck we will be the clear front runner to get him.
My only concern is if the Rams determine their need for a left tackle (Matt Kalil) is greater than the haul of picks they would receive for Luck. That would just screw everything up.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 09:33 PM
yea, he must have said 2013. At any rate many insiders believe Jon Gruden or Jeff Fisher will be their next head coach.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 09:35 PM
if we get the 3rd pick, they could probably trade with us, and still get their left tackle. that's unless indy takes him, which is very possible.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 09:37 PM
In that scenario, I'd have to think Indy goes Claiborne.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 09:43 PM
If they're going to go with Manning next year don't you think they would want to protect him?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 10:26 PM
Quote:
If they're going to go with Manning next year don't you think they would want to protect him?
If Indy is behind St. Louis and Minnesota, Kalil won't be available.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 10:53 PM
If Indy wins that would give both them and Minnesota three wins (assuming Minnesota loses). In that scenario wouldn't Indianapolis draft ahead of Minnesota? (I am not trying to be snarky, I really don't know. I hate that I have to clarify that.)
So it would be St. Louis - #1, Indianapolis - #2, Minnesota- #3. Given that order wouldn't it go Luck, Kalil?
So it would be St. Louis - #1, Indianapolis - #2, Minnesota- #3. Given that order wouldn't it go Luck, Kalil?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 10:54 PM
Quote:
Thanx! I was pretty close then. Hmm March 15, I wonder if that means the reigional combines will be going on as we enter the FA period...
I think our heads are gonna be on a swivel this spring.
Free Agency begins, according to Greg Aiello on March 13th at 4 pm.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/27/11 11:57 PM
Quote:Quote:
Luck is going #1
If whoever is picking #1 doesn't want Luck, the pick will get traded.
What if no one offers Indy or StL what they are asking (which will be a LOT)? Do you think either one of them will take Luck?
I think whoever has the #1 pick will field offers for it and if it doesn't meet with their price, that they may just make the pick or if the gamesmanship blows up in their face.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 01:10 AM
If the Rams get offered two 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder and that's their best offer they have to take it. They can't take Luck.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 01:36 AM
I'm trying to Hypothetically work this out IF the Rams get the pick ...
1. They draft luck ...
2. They trade the pick. ..
3. They take their BPA who ISN'T Luck.
There are no other options.
I think we rule out 3 unless something major happens between now and then.
I also am trying to wonder what would happen in terms of a cap hit if they took Luck and then traded Bradford? Some of that might not be a major effect but it could be something that deters them (or a new coach) from coming in and realizing a ton of the money he wants to rebuild a team and get solid FA's is burnt up on a player who isn't even there anymore.
So while they could definitely draft Luck ... would that mean they virtually have to kiss Sammy B goodbye? Or would be it alright to hold onto them both for a year before trading Sam?
The only remaining option is of course the trade. BUT ... if they don't really have any other options and other teams almost KNOW that the Rams will trade it ... then the pick becomes a lot less costly as compared to if the Colts just say "forget you guys - we're taking him ourselves"
Just trying to sort through all the scenarios ...
1. They draft luck ...
2. They trade the pick. ..
3. They take their BPA who ISN'T Luck.
There are no other options.
I think we rule out 3 unless something major happens between now and then.
I also am trying to wonder what would happen in terms of a cap hit if they took Luck and then traded Bradford? Some of that might not be a major effect but it could be something that deters them (or a new coach) from coming in and realizing a ton of the money he wants to rebuild a team and get solid FA's is burnt up on a player who isn't even there anymore.
So while they could definitely draft Luck ... would that mean they virtually have to kiss Sammy B goodbye? Or would be it alright to hold onto them both for a year before trading Sam?
The only remaining option is of course the trade. BUT ... if they don't really have any other options and other teams almost KNOW that the Rams will trade it ... then the pick becomes a lot less costly as compared to if the Colts just say "forget you guys - we're taking him ourselves"
Just trying to sort through all the scenarios ...
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 01:44 AM
Earlier clwb419 dissected the Bradford situation:
If this is correct the Rams will have two options:
1) Take BPA other than Luck.
2) Trade the pick.
Quote:
I can't see traded. In 2010 he signed a 6 year, 78m contract, with $50M guaranteed (with a potential total max of 86m). Looking at his contract details, he's been paid 2.88M (prorated 6 years) 1st year contract bonus plus 320k salary in 2010, plus 17.974 signing bonus (not prorated, 1 time hit) and 405k salary in 2011. Since in 2010 he hit his escalators, he was guaranteed another 19m (assume prorated 5 years) and has guaranteed salaries in 2012 of 1.205m, 2013 2.005m. 2014 2.805M, and 2015 of 3.605M. That adds up to his 50.2M guaranteed contract. The other 26 I cannot find, though I'd assume gets rolled into salary for the last 5 years.
This means St. Louis has put 23.459M into the kid for the first 2 years with another 26.541M still guaranteed to him. Assuming that the guaranteed salaries, along with the non guaranteed $ would move to the new team he got traded to, the Rams would still be on the hook for the remaining prorated 2.88m and the remaining prorated 19M - or a cap hit of 17.12M to cut or trade him. This would essentially mean they paid 40.579M for 2 years. The team that gets him (under my assumption a few lines above), would have roughly 36M in contract, including 9.62 guaranteed for the next 4 years.
If this is correct the Rams will have two options:
1) Take BPA other than Luck.
2) Trade the pick.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 01:53 AM
Appreciate that! Sorry I missed it. Between 4 work shifts since Monday at 6 AM (2 days of 2 doubles) and traveling for Christmas - I haven't been caught up on all of the scenarios yet ... little busy to say the least!
However it is pretty interesting to me. I know a lot can happen (if St. Louis loses / wins and same with Indy ... if St. Louis gets a new coach who has no ties with Bradford ... What happens at the Combine and Pro Days... Free Agency ...etc.)
I suppose the thing is if St. Louis can't really trade Bradford then they are almost forced into trading the pick for what they can get. I'd rather be in a bidding war where we can say "Trade down to 3 or 4 ... you could still get EITHER Blackmon or Kalil ... OR you will have the ability to trade for more picks if those 2 are gone and RG3 is still available" ... We could be one of the best trade partners ever with a team who already has a franchise QB and who has a new coach / GM that wants a lot of picks to stockpile his team and bring in his own guys ...
Then again ... a lot still needs to unfold. But it IS interesting to see how it's shaping out.
However it is pretty interesting to me. I know a lot can happen (if St. Louis loses / wins and same with Indy ... if St. Louis gets a new coach who has no ties with Bradford ... What happens at the Combine and Pro Days... Free Agency ...etc.)
I suppose the thing is if St. Louis can't really trade Bradford then they are almost forced into trading the pick for what they can get. I'd rather be in a bidding war where we can say "Trade down to 3 or 4 ... you could still get EITHER Blackmon or Kalil ... OR you will have the ability to trade for more picks if those 2 are gone and RG3 is still available" ... We could be one of the best trade partners ever with a team who already has a franchise QB and who has a new coach / GM that wants a lot of picks to stockpile his team and bring in his own guys ...
Then again ... a lot still needs to unfold. But it IS interesting to see how it's shaping out.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 02:48 AM
if the rams think Luck is better than Bradford they should take him. In the grand scheme of things 17 million in the long run isn't that much if you could get the next John Elway. Just look what Peyton Manning did for the colts. Went to 2 super bowls, and one of the best teams the past 12 years or so. Plus all that winning led to a new stadium, which is hosting the super bowl. IF luck is everything people are saying, you take him, and worry about the rest later on.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 02:50 AM
Quote:
Earlier clwb419 dissected the Bradford situation:
Quote:
I can't see traded. In 2010 he signed a 6 year, 78m contract, with $50M guaranteed (with a potential total max of 86m). Looking at his contract details, he's been paid 2.88M (prorated 6 years) 1st year contract bonus plus 320k salary in 2010, plus 17.974 signing bonus (not prorated, 1 time hit) and 405k salary in 2011. Since in 2010 he hit his escalators, he was guaranteed another 19m (assume prorated 5 years) and has guaranteed salaries in 2012 of 1.205m, 2013 2.005m. 2014 2.805M, and 2015 of 3.605M. That adds up to his 50.2M guaranteed contract. The other 26 I cannot find, though I'd assume gets rolled into salary for the last 5 years.
This means St. Louis has put 23.459M into the kid for the first 2 years with another 26.541M still guaranteed to him. Assuming that the guaranteed salaries, along with the non guaranteed $ would move to the new team he got traded to, the Rams would still be on the hook for the remaining prorated 2.88m and the remaining prorated 19M - or a cap hit of 17.12M to cut or trade him. This would essentially mean they paid 40.579M for 2 years. The team that gets him (under my assumption a few lines above), would have roughly 36M in contract, including 9.62 guaranteed for the next 4 years.
If this is correct the Rams will have two options:
1) Take BPA other than Luck.
2) Trade the pick.
If you go with option 1, then you are not really going with your BPA, if Luck is that guy.
It's option 2 I think, with an option 2a; trade the pick and option 2b; draft Luck and shop Bradford.
Perhaps their could be option 3; draft Luck, keeping them both and wait to weigh their options to trade Bradford later.
Speaking of option 2b...
Based on the scenario above ... If a team thinks highly enough to trade extra draft picks for Sam Bradford, then they believe that he has what it takes to start for them, so 36 million over 4 years is not an inordinate amount of money by today's League standard.
The loss off revenue spent will go a little easier and be off set by the extra picks acquired for the Rams.
This is assuming the Colts will beat Jacksonville before the fat drunken shirt less man does his TD dance.
They still have MJD and the Colts defense hasn't stopped any one this year (except for us for the most part
).Still they could win and this would open things up for that first pick and the chance to draft Luck that most never imagined would be available a month ago... It looked as if the Colts had the Andrew Luck sweepstakes all but signed sealed and delivered.
Still I don't see how the Rams could stay pat and take their next best player.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 12:57 PM
I'm a little confused as to why you all think the Colts won't be drafting Luck?
Money? Cap? who cares.. there is no limit for a QB who can save your franchise.
Luck doesn't wanna sit behind Manning? who cares.. if I draft him.. and a team wants to trade for him.. it will guarantee that the Colts reap the benefits of the trade as opposed to not drafting him and some other team get a huge deal.
Money? Cap? who cares.. there is no limit for a QB who can save your franchise.
Luck doesn't wanna sit behind Manning? who cares.. if I draft him.. and a team wants to trade for him.. it will guarantee that the Colts reap the benefits of the trade as opposed to not drafting him and some other team get a huge deal.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 02:19 PM
Man I'm torn here as what to do...
Hope Indy wins...Rams get the 1 pick and we get 4...or
Hope Jax wins...Indy gets the 1 pick...We get 3...If Minny wins...
Gonna be easier to deal with the Rams than Indy...But...
If we settle for RGIII...We need the 3 pick...
Crazy I say...CRAZY...
Hope Indy wins...Rams get the 1 pick and we get 4...or
Hope Jax wins...Indy gets the 1 pick...We get 3...If Minny wins...
Gonna be easier to deal with the Rams than Indy...But...
If we settle for RGIII...We need the 3 pick...
Crazy I say...CRAZY...
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 03:17 PM
Quote:
I'm a little confused as to why you all think the Colts won't be drafting Luck?
Money? Cap? who cares.. there is no limit for a QB who can save your franchise.
Luck doesn't wanna sit behind Manning? who cares.. if I draft him.. and a team wants to trade for him.. it will guarantee that the Colts reap the benefits of the trade as opposed to not drafting him and some other team get a huge deal.
On the contrary ... I think that the Colts would/will select Luck if they are picking first overall.
Rodgers had to hold the clip board in GB for a couple of years and that's not such a bad thing imo. It seemed to workout pretty well for them.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 07:38 PM
Quote:
I can't see traded. In 2010 he signed a 6 year, 78m contract, with $50M guaranteed (with a potential total max of 86m). Looking at his contract details, he's been paid 2.88M (prorated 6 years) 1st year contract bonus plus 320k salary in 2010, plus 17.974 signing bonus (not prorated, 1 time hit) and 405k salary in 2011. Since in 2010 he hit his escalators, he was guaranteed another 19m (assume prorated 5 years) and has guaranteed salaries in 2012 of 1.205m, 2013 2.005m. 2014 2.805M, and 2015 of 3.605M. That adds up to his 50.2M guaranteed contract. The other 26 I cannot find, though I'd assume gets rolled into salary for the last 5 years.
This means St. Louis has put 23.459M into the kid for the first 2 years with another 26.541M still guaranteed to him. Assuming that the guaranteed salaries, along with the non guaranteed $ would move to the new team he got traded to, the Rams would still be on the hook for the remaining prorated 2.88m and the remaining prorated 19M - or a cap hit of 17.12M to cut or trade him. This would essentially mean they paid 40.579M for 2 years. The team that gets him (under my assumption a few lines above), would have roughly 36M in contract, including 9.62 guaranteed for the next 4 years.
From what I've read St. Louis is going to have a hard time with the cap next year as it is - I doubt they're willing to take that hit.
Sorry to get in on this late - but I disagree.
Let's assume that the new STL regime (we don't know who they are) don't think that Bradford is their guy.
Remember:
1.) They owe Bradford the guaranteed money, regardless of whether they keep him or not, so ownership loses no money by cutting Bradford. They will also pay their first round pick around $30M regardless of whether it is Luck or another position player, so they lose no additional money by picking Luck.
2.) They have more cap room than any team in the league (rumored around $35M), so the cap-hit (even if it's $17M this year), doesn't hurt them at all. They are young, and will go after young players, so there is no way they are using close to that much money in FA. http://nfltraderumors.co/nfl-team-cap-space/
3.) Actually, they are in a little bit of a bind the other way - under the new CBA, teams get penalized starting next year for using too little of their cap room, STL could get around that for a year with a big cap hit to Bradford.
4.) If they don't believe that Bradford is the guy - it is a great time to trade him, because he is still enough of a prospect that they could get a decent (late first) pick for him. If they think he won't do well next year, that value will only go down.
5.) The Rams are aiming to be competitive in 2-3 years - due to the new CBA, Luck will be much cheaper 2-3 years down the road than Bradford will be - giving them an extra $5M or so in cap room in the years they want to be competitive.
To summarize: If the new STL regime thinks Bradford is their guy, then they will trade the Luck pick - but if they don't, I don't see anything in the economic situation that forces them to stick with Bradford.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 07:44 PM
Why I am against using a high pick on a RB
Look at the following list:
Lesean McCoy
Arian Foster
Ray Rice
Frank Gore
Maurice Jones Drew
Matt Forte
NONE were first round selections.
Look at the following list:
Lesean McCoy
Arian Foster
Ray Rice
Frank Gore
Maurice Jones Drew
Matt Forte
NONE were first round selections.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 08:19 PM
My opinon,
1st pick is Blackmon, if he isnt availible I have to see more of RG3 dont wanna get caught up in the hype. But I'd go with the DE from Carolina
1B pick, LB if we picked Blackmon, if we went DE we grab a WR
2nd LT or Guard
3rd CB
4th best availible between WR, / Guard / Def.
both picks
We need to address our WR problem in FA & Draft, I do feel we can get a starting LT or Guard in FA
If we dont resign hillis we need to make a push for a FA RB.
I do feel how we draft will be determined bye who we can sign during FA period. We do need a veteran WR to help Colt, add in a young WR along with little and were doing better
If we trade for Luck or pick RG3 I hope we trade Colt for something,
1st pick is Blackmon, if he isnt availible I have to see more of RG3 dont wanna get caught up in the hype. But I'd go with the DE from Carolina
1B pick, LB if we picked Blackmon, if we went DE we grab a WR
2nd LT or Guard
3rd CB
4th best availible between WR, / Guard / Def.
both picks
We need to address our WR problem in FA & Draft, I do feel we can get a starting LT or Guard in FA
If we dont resign hillis we need to make a push for a FA RB.
I do feel how we draft will be determined bye who we can sign during FA period. We do need a veteran WR to help Colt, add in a young WR along with little and were doing better
If we trade for Luck or pick RG3 I hope we trade Colt for something,
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 08:21 PM
I think that's kind of a silly strategy to take, in terms of "don't draft player x in the 1st round because these guys (list) weren't drafted there".
You need talent to win. Where that talent comes from doesn't seem to matter in the grand scheme of things. If you have a massive need at RB (which the Browns do) and a player grades out in the vicinity of your draft pick (i.e. Richardson is a consensus top 5 player), then why not take him? How many 3 down RB's are there in the NFL? And of those guys, how many WOULDN'T be worth a #1 pick?
Just to illustrate this point, It's something like 55-60% of the starting NFL QB's were drafted outside the 1st round. Hell, some of the best at the position (Brady, Brees, Romo, etc.) weren't #1 picks either. Is that supposed to mean you shouldn't take Luck #1? Because history tells you that a QB can be found later? Obviously QB's carry a little more weight, in terms of value, that's not really what I'm pointing out. I'm simply underlining that every position in the NFL probably has a nice list of "don't take "x" position in the 1st round because these guys (list) weren't taken there."
Ultimately you take a player in the top 5-10, even at a position like RB, because historically more of those guys pan out. I don't know what the actual percentage is but if a 1st round RB has lets say a 25% better chance to succeed than a 2nd or 3rd round RB, then there's obviously a reason you would target them (if it's BPA + a big need).
I'm not a huge fan of taking a RB that high but if you feel like he's the next AP or Chris Johnson, well, that seems like an easy decision.
You need talent to win. Where that talent comes from doesn't seem to matter in the grand scheme of things. If you have a massive need at RB (which the Browns do) and a player grades out in the vicinity of your draft pick (i.e. Richardson is a consensus top 5 player), then why not take him? How many 3 down RB's are there in the NFL? And of those guys, how many WOULDN'T be worth a #1 pick?
Just to illustrate this point, It's something like 55-60% of the starting NFL QB's were drafted outside the 1st round. Hell, some of the best at the position (Brady, Brees, Romo, etc.) weren't #1 picks either. Is that supposed to mean you shouldn't take Luck #1? Because history tells you that a QB can be found later? Obviously QB's carry a little more weight, in terms of value, that's not really what I'm pointing out. I'm simply underlining that every position in the NFL probably has a nice list of "don't take "x" position in the 1st round because these guys (list) weren't taken there."
Ultimately you take a player in the top 5-10, even at a position like RB, because historically more of those guys pan out. I don't know what the actual percentage is but if a 1st round RB has lets say a 25% better chance to succeed than a 2nd or 3rd round RB, then there's obviously a reason you would target them (if it's BPA + a big need).
I'm not a huge fan of taking a RB that high but if you feel like he's the next AP or Chris Johnson, well, that seems like an easy decision.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 08:47 PM
Quote:
If you have a massive need at RB (which the Browns do)...
Do you not think that Hillis, Obi, Jackson and Hardesty can get the job done? (Provided we keep Hillis).
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 09:04 PM
Plus, Brandon Jackson should return healthy for 2012. Only way we need a RB is if they ditch Hillis, imo.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 09:22 PM
Quote:
Quote:
If you have a massive need at RB (which the Browns do)...
Do you not think that Hillis, Obi, Jackson and Hardesty can get the job done? (Provided we keep Hillis).
I agree with this sentiment. If we keep Hillis, we'll have 4 young RB's. Hillis and Ogbonaya are only 25, Jackson is 26, and Hardesty is 24. So next year our starter (hopefully we resign Hillis), will be 26, our primary back up - Hardesty - will be 25, and we will have two more guys to back them up.
This team got hit with a lot of injuries this year at the RB position. Next year, having all 4 of these guys back, healthy, and with another off-season of training and conditioning to learn the offense better and get their bodies ready for an NFL season should bode well for us.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 09:26 PM
Quote:
NONE were first round selections.
Just trying to get at your point CandyMan.
Are you saying that today, you wouldn't invest a top 10 pick in those guys? Because I watch Trent Richardson, and he's the best RB to come around in a LONG time.
He doesn't have the injury issues of Adrian Peterson, and I'm higher on him than pretty much any college RB i've ever seen.
So just wondering, are they not worth the pick because you can get RBs later in the draft? Or is it that the O-Line makes the RB or something?
LT was a very high 1st round pick, would you pick him? Because that's the level I see Richardson at.........
As for our RBs, Jackson was on IR all season, Hardesty has been brittle the past two seasons. And Hillis has had injuries all over his career. None can really be relied upon. Especially since Jackson is regarded as a guy who isn't particularly good running the ball, more of a 3rd down back. We do have young RBs, but none have shown the ability to really be healthy. Hillis was last season, but not this season. And he got hurt with the Broncos when they started using him as a RB also. With Hillis' style, I don't think he's going to normally make it a full season. Hardesty can't be relied on for anything and Jackson is a 3rd down back. There's definitely a decent case that we have a real need at RB (a position where the guy gets the ball A LOT every game).
When it comes down to who's the better player, Richardson is as good as it gets. I have no issue with getting Richardson, seeing as Hillis and the crew aren't very reliable.
I don't want to pick a WR based on need, and Blackmon is not AJ Green. He's who I wanted last year (AJ). I felt that he was the best player in the draft. The year before, Eric Berry was the guy I liked the most (and then Joe Haden). When Joe Thomas came out, I was sure he'd be really good. This year, Richardson. The only thing you can hold against him is that he's a RB. But if we get one of the best RBs ever, I think it would probably be a good call. Richardson has that potential IMO.
Trent Richardson will definitely be a stud. I have no doubt in my mind. So I prefer him over RG3 (who I just don't know enough about but a lot of people have questions about him and he plays in the spread offense), Quarles (who didn't look good to me when I watched him vs Mizzou) and Blackmon (looks good, but he's no AJ Green). I'd like to trade up for Andrew Luck, but if not, I'm at least sure Trent Richardson will be a stud. I don't know enough about Claiborne or Kalil (never really seen them), but I have seen enough of Richardson. You can't deny that the guy is REALLY good.
So if Richardson will be as good (or as I think, probably better) than the guys you listed; are you saying that (knowing what we know now) Matt Forte, Ray Rice, LeSean McCoy wouldn't have been worth high 1st round picks?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 09:56 PM
I think what he's (very obviously) saying, is that you can get great RBs later in the draft.
It's true.
It's true.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/28/11 10:20 PM
Quote:
Quote:
If you have a massive need at RB (which the Browns do)...
Do you not think that Hillis, Obi, Jackson and Hardesty can get the job done? (Provided we keep Hillis).
I don't think any of those players address a long term need at the position.
- Hillis has been up and down and just isn't the type of runner who's going to have a long career.
- Obi was taken off a teams practice squad.
- Hardesty is a glass man.
- Jackson is a 3rd down back.
If you look around the NFL, who has a worse RB situation than Cleveland? In terms of not having either A.) a young, talented back with a lot of promise or B.) an established veteran who's going to be there for the foreseeable future?
I like Hillis but he's not an every down player and his attitude this season has certainly left a lot to be desired. I think he's worth keeping around (for the right price) but he's not a talented enough player to pass on a guy like Richardson if he's the BPA on your board.
I think the Browns have more pressing needs than running back but this team is so devoid of offensive playmakers that need shouldn't play in to the first two selections IMO. The best skill position player on the board is the guy Cleveland should be taking.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/29/11 12:15 AM
Quote:Taking things a logical step further, teams which can really run the ball do so because they have good running schemes with good run-blocking. The Donks, 'Skins, and Texans are perfect examples of that. So from where I'm sitting, why spend a 1st rounder on a RB when there are so many other glaring holes in far more critical positions?
I think what he's (very obviously) saying, is that you can get great RBs later in the draft.
It's true.
I know I'm parroting what's been said before, but THE most talented backs in this league are laboring on bad teams. Adrian Peterson and Steven Jackson can't sniff a winning record without offensive linemen or QB's. Meanwhile, the Pats, Saints, Packers, and others are going DEEEEP into the playoffs with guys plucked from the middle rounds or scrap heaps.
Frankly, I'd consider a 1st round RB to be a severe waste of a pick.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/29/11 12:28 AM
In todays league I would take a great passing attack 100/100 over a great running game.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/29/11 02:12 AM
Quote:
In todays league I would take a great passing attack 100/100 over a great running game. [/quote
why can't i have both?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/29/11 07:54 AM
Just realized I forgot to post the updated order after the MNF game this week...not that it changed it much, but here it is anyway.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/29/11 11:08 AM
Quote:
Why I am against using a high pick on a RB
Look at the following list:
Lesean McCoy
Arian Foster
Ray Rice
Frank Gore
Maurice Jones Drew
Matt Forte
NONE were first round selections.
I generally agree. Unless you have a Adrian Peterson sitting there, it is a tough pick for me as well.
I am not sure Richardson fills that bill, but if we do select him I won't go beserk as he is a fine player. Reminds me of a Steven Jackson type player.
I would be good with that, but by and large, backs are dime a dozen players. There are lots of guys who can gain yardage if you give them half a chance at the line.
The really great backs make their own or find holes nobody else could find, but you don't find that many Emmett Smith or Barry Sanders type players.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/29/11 11:28 AM
Quote:
I generally agree. Unless you have a Adrian Peterson sitting there, it is a tough pick for me as well.
For me, Richardson is an Adrian Peterson type player.
He's not just any RB, not your average 1st round RB period. He's much better than Mark Ingram IMO.
I have no issue with taking him because he's a sure-fire hit in my book.
1A) Richardson
1B) WR/RT/RG
2) RT/WR/RG
3) WR/RG
Obviously FA will answer some of these holes. But Hardesty is pointless on the team. If Hillis wants a reasonable contract re-sign him and Brandon Jackson as our #3. OG can battle it out with Jackson in camp. That leaves a good spot for Richardson IMO
RT is a must between 1A and round 2 though (unless we make a move for Luck, which I would love). I just don't see us getting a decent tackle in FA. But if we do, I'd definitely be high on picking one of those good RG's with our 1A if available.
I know the NFL is a passing league, but we do play in the north, and a running attack that must be planned for is very good for a stronger passing attack. Especially as we try to become more vertically oriented
If we got ourselves a runningback who could play here for 10 years, I'd have no issue with using a high 1st round pick on it. I've always really liked Richardson, and with a stronger O-Line around him (and Colt), our offense will improve
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/29/11 05:27 PM
Not disagreeing with you here...but...
I would rather sign Hillis and draft Claiborne than draft Richardson.
Not apples to apples...I know...but just the thought that I had.
I would rather sign Hillis and draft Claiborne than draft Richardson.
Not apples to apples...I know...but just the thought that I had.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/29/11 11:38 PM
I think most who know me or pay attention to my comments know i am a SEC guy down the line.
I don't think he is like a Petersen, but I did mention Steven Jackson.
Again, he wouldn't be my pick, but if we do, I won't complain.
I don't think he is like a Petersen, but I did mention Steven Jackson.
Again, he wouldn't be my pick, but if we do, I won't complain.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/29/11 11:46 PM
What's your opinion on Janoris Jenkins? He seemed like the Honey Badger of 2010 and is slated to go right around our 1b.
I liked him quite a bit despite his size.
I liked him quite a bit despite his size.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 02:58 AM
Quote:Likewise.
I think most who know me or pay attention to my comments know i am a SEC guy down the line.
I don't think he is like a Petersen, but I did mention Steven Jackson.
Again, he wouldn't be my pick, but if we do, I won't complain.
He wouldn't be my first pick either, but he's probably the safest pick to be had, and that's not a bad thing.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 03:02 AM
It's not fair comparing anyone to Peterson. AP was a freak day one at Oklahoma.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 03:23 AM
I remember John Madden saying that Adrian and Peterson and Herschel Walker are the only two players that could've come straight out of high school to the NFL.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 04:45 AM
Quote:
I remember John Madden saying that Adrian and Peterson and Herschel Walker are the only two players that could've come straight out of high school to the NFL.
That sounds like three players. Doesn't it?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 04:47 AM
I thought the same thing but didnt wanna be the guy to call him out on it lol
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 04:52 AM
Quote:
I thought the same thing but didnt wanna be the guy to call him out on it lol
I'm not calling him out - it just sounded like he listed 3 players.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 04:58 AM
you must not understand what I meant.....call him out, give him a hard time, joke around with him....geez man its all in good fun. Its not like you was doing it to be a jerk......or where you? lol
some of you guys on this board are way too serious
some of you guys on this board are way too serious
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 04:59 AM
Quote:Quote:
I remember John Madden saying that Adrian and Peterson and Herschel Walker are the only two players that could've come straight out of high school to the NFL.
That sounds like three players. Doesn't it?
i read his post like 10 times wondering the same thing
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 05:17 AM
I am a retard.
Adrian Peterson and Herschel Walker.
Adrian Peterson and Herschel Walker.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 05:22 AM
Quote:
you must not understand what I meant.....call him out, give him a hard time, joke around with him....geez man its all in good fun. Its not like you was doing it to be a jerk......or where you? lol
some of you guys on this board are way too serious
Let me try again:
I wasn't calling him out - it just sounded like he listed 3 players.
Is that better?
BAM - now I'm calling you out?
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 07:01 AM
there much better lol
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 10:28 AM
Quote:
What's your opinion on Janoris Jenkins? He seemed like the Honey Badger of 2010 and is slated to go right around our 1b.
I liked him quite a bit despite his size.
I like the kid a lot except he has habit of failing drug tests. It's why Muschamp cut him loose and he had to transfer to N Alabama.
He is a all SEC, all american type player who is good at finding the ball and getting the pick.
You will never be 100% sure the guy has quit blowing smoke, but if I was 80% sure he at least was going to be smart enough to do it away from the season yet not so close he couldn't clean out, I'd take him, but maybe not at that 1B slot. I think I would roll the dice a second time(you are rolling them by selecting him anywhere for the above mentioned reasons) and see if he falls to our second pick which might be at # 36.
He has the talent. Had he not had his problem, he would probably be the #1(or at least equal with Clayborn) corner in the draft with a top 10 grade.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 10:32 AM
Agreed. He's a top 10 talent who will most likely slide to late 1st or early 2nd round.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 11:54 AM
Quote:
cfrs15 - I am a retard.
Someone will use that in a sig.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 05:01 PM
So I'm checking out that list, just trying to figure where the Atl draft pick will end up, I figure anything better than 29 would be a plus.
I see Cincinnati and New England have 2 first rounders.
So what about this scenario, Luck goes 1st pick
RG 3 goes 2nd pick
3rd pick Cincinnati trades up takes Blackmon, there! best wr 2 years in a row right there in your division.
Any way you look at it, I think the Browns have to go best player available.
And let me go on record, I'm pretty much thinking SOMEBODY is going to jump ahead of the Browns draft pick and pick a perfect player they want.
ONLY in Cleveland, It HASSS to happen because it's just our luck. Period.
I see Cincinnati and New England have 2 first rounders.
So what about this scenario, Luck goes 1st pick
RG 3 goes 2nd pick
3rd pick Cincinnati trades up takes Blackmon, there! best wr 2 years in a row right there in your division.
Any way you look at it, I think the Browns have to go best player available.
And let me go on record, I'm pretty much thinking SOMEBODY is going to jump ahead of the Browns draft pick and pick a perfect player they want.
ONLY in Cleveland, It HASSS to happen because it's just our luck. Period.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 11:16 PM
I can actually see this type of scenario playing out.
I. The Browns get the #3 overall pick through the following scenario.
- a. Indy loses to Jax, securing the #1 overall pick with Jax falling behind the Browns with the victory.
- b. Minny beats a sinking Chicago ship, also falling behind the Browns leaving the top 5 of the draft order as: 1) Colts, 2) Rams, 3) Browns, 4) Vikings, 5) Jags.
II. With the draft order set, the first two picks go: 1) RG3 & 2) Kalil.
Maybe those teams don't draft that way, but here's the line of thinking:
The Colts draft RG3 because he fits the system that they run more. Manning has never been particularly agile but somewhere next to 90% of the snaps are taken from the shotgun and the spread offense that they run suits the system that RG3 is used to.
The Rams already have their franchise QB and aren't going to be taking one in this draft. They need to protect the one that they have more and securing Kalil at the LT spot fits that bill perfectly.
The Browns, sitting at the #3 spot would in this scenario, of having their pick of Andrew Luck, Justin Blackmon, Trent Richardson or Morris Claiborne or even holding that #3 spot if there was an offer that simply couldn't be refused.
I. The Browns get the #3 overall pick through the following scenario.
- a. Indy loses to Jax, securing the #1 overall pick with Jax falling behind the Browns with the victory.
- b. Minny beats a sinking Chicago ship, also falling behind the Browns leaving the top 5 of the draft order as: 1) Colts, 2) Rams, 3) Browns, 4) Vikings, 5) Jags.
II. With the draft order set, the first two picks go: 1) RG3 & 2) Kalil.
Maybe those teams don't draft that way, but here's the line of thinking:
The Colts draft RG3 because he fits the system that they run more. Manning has never been particularly agile but somewhere next to 90% of the snaps are taken from the shotgun and the spread offense that they run suits the system that RG3 is used to.
The Rams already have their franchise QB and aren't going to be taking one in this draft. They need to protect the one that they have more and securing Kalil at the LT spot fits that bill perfectly.
The Browns, sitting at the #3 spot would in this scenario, of having their pick of Andrew Luck, Justin Blackmon, Trent Richardson or Morris Claiborne or even holding that #3 spot if there was an offer that simply couldn't be refused.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 11:21 PM
Wow.
If Luck was sitting there at #3 when we pick, that would be like 50 Christmases wrapped into one. I bet it wouldn't take 30 seconds to get a slip of paper with the name Andrew Luck to the podium.
Not much of a chance it happens ..... but it sure would be nice to wind up with Luck, a 1st round talent at WR, and a 2nd or 3rd round RT. Wow! Talk about instant offense!
Again ... almost 0% chance it happens ..... but man it would be nice.
If Luck was sitting there at #3 when we pick, that would be like 50 Christmases wrapped into one. I bet it wouldn't take 30 seconds to get a slip of paper with the name Andrew Luck to the podium.
Not much of a chance it happens ..... but it sure would be nice to wind up with Luck, a 1st round talent at WR, and a 2nd or 3rd round RT. Wow! Talk about instant offense!
Again ... almost 0% chance it happens ..... but man it would be nice.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 11:23 PM
I cannot see that. EVEN IF the Colts were to decide against Luck and favor RG3 ... I think that they at LEAST work out a deal where they trade down even a single spot. As stupid as it sounds they could draft him then trade his rights to St. Louis for the #2 and an extra first (or whatever package). They could use the #2 on RG3 and have extra ammunition. Then St. Louis trades Luck to virtually any team for any amount of compensation.
There are other ways to do it, but the Colts could play around and make a FORTUNE off of the #1 overall or Luck and STILL get RG3. I agree with your premise but I don't think he slides past #1. Even if the #1 team doesn't want him ... they still can take him and trade him for any other player plus picks if done correctly.
There are other ways to do it, but the Colts could play around and make a FORTUNE off of the #1 overall or Luck and STILL get RG3. I agree with your premise but I don't think he slides past #1. Even if the #1 team doesn't want him ... they still can take him and trade him for any other player plus picks if done correctly.
Re: Atlanta and Draft Order Part IV - 12/30/11 11:28 PM
If they really wanted RG3, they couldn't go down much below 2 or 3 ... because someone might just pop back up ahead of them otherwise.
I do think that the Browns will take RG3 if he is there at 3. The QB is too important in today's NFL. If Luck was there it would be an absolute no brainer. So the Colts could probably only drop down one spot and still get RG3. Why would the Rams trade up? They can get their T at 2 just by sitting still. So the Colts would have to trade down, and unless it was with us, would then have to trade back up ahead of us .... which would be a difficult proposition. (especially when the Browns could offer a superior package for trading back just 1 spot)
The Colts either take a QB at #1 ... and that QB would be Luck ..... or they trade back and hope they can still get the guy they want. If that guy is RG3, then I don't think they could go below 3 ...... which would limit their trade possibilities.
I do think that the Browns will take RG3 if he is there at 3. The QB is too important in today's NFL. If Luck was there it would be an absolute no brainer. So the Colts could probably only drop down one spot and still get RG3. Why would the Rams trade up? They can get their T at 2 just by sitting still. So the Colts would have to trade down, and unless it was with us, would then have to trade back up ahead of us .... which would be a difficult proposition. (especially when the Browns could offer a superior package for trading back just 1 spot)
The Colts either take a QB at #1 ... and that QB would be Luck ..... or they trade back and hope they can still get the guy they want. If that guy is RG3, then I don't think they could go below 3 ...... which would limit their trade possibilities.