Barkley is announcing at 4pm today.
I hope he comes out.
If he stays at USC, I'm all for giving up whatever necessary to move up for Luck.
If he does stay, then Kalil did him no favors by leaving
I actually hope he stays because USC would be a monster team next year and fun to root for (and I'm less convinced he'll be a no-doubt NFL QB)
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from the other thread: I agree on Hillis. I think he could stay still. I hope that he does. If he doesn't, and Michael Bush is too expensive, then Lamar Miller is the guy I want even if it means using our 1B pick.
Re: Flap
No doubt just like there was much moaning when Leinart said he was going back, then when Locker said he was going back, and last year when Luck said he was going back.
I don't view Luck as a better prospect than Barkley, honestly.
If I were an NFL GM and picking #1, I'd take Luck because passing on Luck for Barkley and it not working out is a move that gets you fired, but as a fan, I can say I like Barkley every bit as much as Luck.
Draft notebook: Don't sleep on 'other' quarterbacks in deep '12 draft class
By Rob Rang | The Sports Xchange/CBSSports.com
Juniors Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley and Robert Griffin III dominated the college football headlines in 2011, and many scouts feel this year's senior class of quarterbacks isn't getting the attention it deserves.
Texas A&M's Ryan Tannehill has all of the physical traits scouts are looking for and has maintained his standing as the top-rated senior quarterback in the 2012 draft. Tannehill struggled late in games this season, but the fact that 2011 was just his second year as the starting quarterback makes scouts optimistic that his poise will develop with time. In today's pass-happy NFL, quarterbacks with the 6-4, 225-pound Tannehill's tools rarely slip out of the top 32 based on upside and projections of what he can become with time to develop.
Michigan State's Kirk Cousins, Arizona's Nick Foles and San Diego State's Ryan Lindley aren't currently viewed as likely first-round candidates. However, scouts believe it is only a matter of time before each generates second-round buzz, if not fringe first-round chatter as TCU's Andy Dalton did as winter turned to spring in 2011.
Of the three seniors in the 2012 second-tier, Cousins is the most polished. The 49-7 whipping Michigan State took a year ago at the hands of Alabama in the Capital One Bowl won't soon be forgotten by scouts. Cousins has improved his accuracy and poise in the pocket this season and has the leadership skills coaches crave at the position. One highly ranked scout characterized Cousins as "this year's Dalton" and a player who will steadily climb boards as teams go through the interview process.
The 6-5, 240-pound Foles clearly has the build and production in Arizona's spread offense to pique the interest of scouts. Foles lacks the foot speed preferred in most West Coast Offense-based schemes, but teams in search of a classic drop-back passer see a lot of similarities in Foles to Matt Schaub of the Houston Texans.
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Perhaps the most intriguing of the group, Lindley, unlike most quarterbacks coming from a spread offense, has legitimate NFL arm strength. Lindley has been able to rely on his big arm throughout his collegiate career, but remains quite the project from a technical standpoint. One scout characterized Lindley as having "some Brett Favre to him" in that Lindley's answer to covered receivers has at times been to simply throw passes harder. Given a year or two to polish his footwork, a team could have something with the San Diego State star.
Six quarterbacks among the first 64 picks sound unrealistic? Remember, just last April six passers -- Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Andy Dalton and Colin Kaepernick -- went in the top 36.
Scouts Wishing Upon a Falling Star?
Though few outside of the state of Utah know his name, no prospect in the country has generated more buzz from NFL scouts than Utes junior defensive tackle Star Lotulelei.
Listed at 6-4, 330 pounds, Lotulelei (pronounced lo-too-leh-lay) played every position along the Utah defensive line in 2011, drawing double-teams at every stop. Nevertheless, he registered 38 tackles, including tying for the team lead with nine tackles for loss. His opponents in the Pac-12 certainly recognized his value, voting the junior the winner among defensive linemen for the Morris Trophy -- the only major college football award voted strictly by opposing players.
Powerful, instinctive and shockingly agile for his size, some scouts have compared Lotulelei to another former Polynesian player who played his collegiate football in the west -- former Oregon Ducks' and current Baltimore Ravens' standout Haloti Ngata. Like Ngata, Lotulelei's value lies not only in his awesome physical talents, but in his versatility. Scouts don't have to project him as a nose guard, defensive tackle or strong-side defensive end. They've seen him dominate in each of these roles -- which is why Lotulelei's announcement this week that he is returning to Utah for his senior season is so perplexing.
It is certainly admirable to see Lotulelei make his own education and loyalty to his Utah coaching staff and teammates a higher priority than an NFL payday, but some are questioning the wisdom behind such a decision.
Lotulelei, married and with two children, didn't even request a grade from the NFL Advisory Committee before making his decision. That must have been great news for Utah head coach Kyle Whittingham, who with just a few phone calls likely would have heard the same rumblings I have -- that Lotulelei is the elite defensive talent in the west and may unknowingly be turning down a top 20 selection.
'Most Complete Senior Linebacker' Plays for Utah State?
North Carolina outside linebacker Zach Brown is generally considered the best senior at his position. Alabama and South Carolina have senior defensive ends in Courtney Upshaw and Melvin Ingram who many project as outside linebackers in the NFL and likely first round choices. At 6-4, 240 pounds North Carolina State's Audie Cole.
They aren't the players, however, that scouts are increasingly hailing as the best all-around senior linebacker in the country.
That would be Utah State's Bobby Wagner.
Though he's earned first-team All-WAC honors after each of the past three seasons, Wagner isn't well known nationally. Had his Aggies been able to pull off their opening week upset over defending BCS champion Auburn, that might have changed.
Scouts didn't miss Wagner's effort against the Tigers, noting that the 6-0, 232 pounder was "the best player on the field" in racking up 10 tackles, including two tackles for loss and a sack.
"[Wagner] is the most complete senior linebacker in the country," one scout said.
Wagner had 147 tackles in 2011 for the Aggies, ranking eighth nationally with an average of 11.31 per contest. It is the fourth consecutive year that his tackle total has improved and gave him 445 stops for his career.
While shorter and lighter than scouts would prefer at inside linebacker, Wagner has long arms, which he uses well to disengage from blocks. He also possesses excellent vision, patience and impressive closing speed. Though he primarily played inside linebacker for Utah State, he also lined up outside and even on the defensive line this season.
"Look smart later by putting him in the second round now," another scout said. "He's got a lot of buzz around him right now. Watch him fly up the board if he gets into a Senior Bowl and people see that those stats aren't just from playing weaker competition. He's just a good player."
Extra Points
Each year the NFL Advisory Committee is slammed with requests from underclassmen seeking to gauge their grade from pro scouts. Most of the elite underclassmen request a grade. Whether they come out or go back, no one was surprised to learn that Barkley, Griffin, Alabama running back Trent Richardson and LSU cornerback Morris Claiborne asked for feedback. There are some surprising names also requesting grades, sources tell me, including San Diego State running back Ronnie Hillman and Oregon safety John Boyett.
Another junior rumored to be exploring the jump to the NFL is Syracuse safety Phillip Thomas, who was suspended November 18 for an undisclosed violation of team rules. Despite playing two games less than his teammates, Thomas led the Orange in tackles (83) and the entire Big East conference in interceptions (six).
Notably absent in the quarterback conversation for many scouts any more is Oklahoma junior Landry Jones. That's because scouts expect Jones to return for his senior season. "He's an awfully talented guy," one scout said, "but he's had a disappointing year. He could return and with a big senior season jump right back up into that top 10 mix."
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Re: Flap
No doubt just like there was much moaning when Leinart said he was going back, then when Locker said he was going back, and last year when Luck said he was going back.
For the record, I think he's going to stay. I think it's dumb, but I can't fault him either. I just feel that if your a lock top 10, given the new money regulations, you come out. Too much to lose vs. not much to gain. Honestly, i'd have a hard time telling a kid he shouldn't come out early if he were a lock 1st rounder.
I only count four other teams that are likely to take a QB in eaither the first or second rounds: Indy (and that isn't a lock), Washington, Miami and Seattle. Plus the Browns, most likely. Also, if Indy cuts Manning to get Luck, somebody is going to sign him, provided he's healthy. So the Browns could get Tannehill or any of the others with the early No. 3. If teams don't need a QB, they just don't pick one early. After a certain number go, the rest freefall.
If the Colts cut Manning, he's going to San Francisco, IMO.
San Fran is a QB away from being a legit Super Bowl contender.
that's the best spot for him.
All the local guys here in L.A. seem to think Barkley is staying in school.
The best thing for the Browns would be for Barkley to stay in school so as to not even tempt us with that pick. We need so much other talent on O, that a high pick QB would be set up for failure (see Bradford, Sam). Get Blackmon/Richardson/Martin at #4/5, and then go WR/OL and D with the late first and early second picks. Much safer and needed no matter who the QB is.
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All the local guys here in L.A. seem to think Barkley is staying in school.
I think he's staying, too.
wait... there's a big announcement at 4??
Drafttek's Mock . . . (because you asked for it . . .
)
1A - Richardson
1B - Mercilus
2 - Adcock
3 - Reuben Randle, LSU WR
Dislike.
I'd take the CB or Floyd over the RB any day.... but I'd prefer a trade down if Blackmon is gone.
Yes, and the rumor is that he's staying at USC.
LINK A LINK B That would hurt us, even if we weren't taking him. He would have probably gone ahead of us and that takes one better player away from us. And it would also make trading up for Luck even that more expensive too.
Even with all this talk, I'd be shocked if he stayed. All that money, all the risk and and the challenge of being atop the BCS standings at the end of the year. BIG gamble.
That could help us because there's several teams that want QBs. If RG3 is the only viable top 10 QB after Luck, our #4 position becomes awfully valuable to Miami at #7ish.
I go back and forth on Richardson. Everyone talks about how easy it is to find a running back. But this year, Hillis goes down and we have nothing. Obie, Herdesty? No thanks. If Richardson is really an elite guy, it seems like he could help a lot.
On the other hand, Mark Ingrahm didn't do much at all this year and he was the first RB taken last year. And how would any of those other RBs (Boise, Kentucky, etc.) have done playing for Bammy? They'd probably look like beasts, too. We're a top RT away from having one of the best OLs in the league, so maybe you just bring back Hillis and pound it while you develop a passing game.
I like Richardson but I don't think we should take a RB in the draft with our two 1's.
I also don't think he's as good as Peterson was coming out of Oklahoma.
I really want to see a QB if we can, or a stud LB which I don't know if there is one. Obviously help on the OL, WR. I just think there are so many areas of need that we shouldn't go at RB, which should be OK if we can get Hillis signed, get Jackson back, and hope Hardesty can give us more.
If Barkley stays, our pick (assuming no one trades out ahead of us) will likely have huge value for RGIII. We could trade back to Miami or Wash and probably still get Martin or Reiff for RT and then still get a WR (Floyd or Jeffrey) with the ATL pick (or possibly that Stanford Guard to replace lavaman. In terms of dollar cost, it is now very affordable to build an elite line like that (4 1st rounders) with the new CBA.
Barkley's family is pretty wealthy, so the money is not a factor. Also, for all the talk of an injury derailing someone's NFL hopes there are tons of examples of guys not getting hurt. And then there's Sam Bradford who still went #1 overall after tearing his shoulder up and Willis McGahee still went in the 1st round.
Great idea, let's trade back and draft a RT and RG with the 1st rounders...then when we need playmakers we just take the 10th best WRs and QBs left on the board and pray we can block our way to a TD while those project playmakers develop
You pretty much summed up how NOT to draft
Hey, we need a QB more than MIA and as much as WAS....why should we trade with them? That be Mack-draft and Ngata trade ALL OVER again
True, good points about the money and career injuries.
I'd still be leary of passing on guaranteed millions for a shot at a BCS title. USC could win all of their games and still be out of the title game.
I wouldn't take TWO offensive linemen in the first round, but I'd grab one. We're also a badass DE away from having a monster defensive line. It'd be fun to actually be able to run the ball on offense and rush the passer on D.
Here's what I have a feeling I'll be doing at about 4:02pm
I didn't say we should do that, only it is an option now IF no WR is available and with the current CBA. It isn't like we don't need a new right side anyways, dominant lines can have just as much an impact on an offense as a skill position player. My preference is WR (Blackmon)/RT (Martin or Reiff)/or (if Hillis leaves) potentially Richardson with our top pick (even if we trade back a couple spots) and then either RT or WR with our second pick (the one we didn't get first), unless someone on the D side we value highly fell to us, but then grab that other O need early second round. I do not want to draft a QB this year (with the exception of Luck, who I would not trade up for).
That was my thought. If it is just RGIII after Luck you might have a small bidding war for the number four spot. If the Vikings and the Rams go WR and LT.
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Dislike.
I'd take the CB or Floyd over the RB any day.... but I'd prefer a trade down if Blackmon is gone.
Right now, if we couldn't land Barkley or Blackmon, I'd prefer a trade-down.
But if they went w/ Richardson, what's done is done, he's on the team and will be a beast. I'd have a HARD time complaining . . .
If we're at #4 and Barkley stays at USC, trade whatever necessary for the #1 pick.
I've been doing the same thing every time I see someone clamoring for RT at our (now) top five pick. I think every year you should take a guy in either of the trenches at some point in the first three rounds, but when the writing's been on the wall for two years that we need play-makers badly, I literally would smash my head through a brick wall if we went RT in round one. I swear it's like some guys are just sitting on the couch- working on the fourth bag of pork rinds- and like broken records spinning, "Yeah, we can't evaluate our QB until we have a $70 million line and a couple Megatron clones to throw to." The value of a RT at that point is just asinine. Picking top five, if that guy can't wing it, catch it, rush the passer, or cover, (for a team like ours with a stud LT) the answer is hell no.
I'm starting to get the vibe this is going to turn into last year's draft as far as a big three going right before we pick. Last year the safe guys I was all over were (in this order) Dareus, AJ Green, and Patrick Petersen. This year it looks like it's been taken away. Luck probably won't be an option, Blackmon either, and now Barkley's probably staying. Kalil would absolutely be one of my safe, solid picks but we have Joe freakin' Thomas. The other sure-fire picks just aren't at positions of need (T-Rich) or realistic value to justify (Martin/Reiff).
Leaving out talk about Griffin III. I like him, see a lot of upside, but have only seen about three games worth of film and can't say I lean one way or the other. I haven't ruled him out yet, though.
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If we're at #4 and Barkley stays at USC, trade whatever necessary for the #1 pick.
Not saying I agree or disagree with the FO, but I think that there's no way we sell the farm to move up and take Luck. We might take RGIII, but I have a feeling the playmakers we might want (Luck, Blackmon) will be gone and we'll be looking to drop down a little in the draft and fill more holes.
JMHO
There's no way you grab RT in the Top 10. Bottom of the 1st is understandable, but not Top 10.
Anyway, if we grabbed a RT in the 3rd, it'd be more than we've invested in that position in a long time.
Of course, everybodies mocks will get blown out of the water when free agency starts... which is what I'm really interested in at this point.
I'm sick of poor QB play. Luck and Barkley are the only two quality QB's in this class.
RG3 sucks, so does Landry Jones. Tannehill is garbage (Sorry Morug), and Weeden is 75 years old.
With Barkley not in the draft, find a way to land Luck.
If Barkley stays, it of course skyrockets RGIII's value. You will likely have to trade into the top 2 or 3 to get him. I don't think we're a player in any trade-down market for a team looking for Griffin.
Or, if all of that is true... then perhaps accept that this probably isn't the year to grab a QB.
With the new slotting, it isn't a bad deal anymore. Cam Newton only got $22 million over 4 as the top pick last year. You show me where we could even attempt to sign a good RT that cheap. The values have totally changed and I would argue that now you can take almost any position anywhere in the draft if you think that player has pro bowl potential.
Agree 100% and would add Claiborn to the "good/safe but not really big need" list
I also haven't seen enough of RG3 too to make an accurate call...
Since Barkley is doing this thing at USC's trophy hall or whatever, and not the Boy's and Girls Club of Greenwich Connecticut, I'm thinkin he's staying.
if he leaves will they cut to Pete Carroll in Seattle lambasting his decision?
I think USC is bowl eligible in 2012. I think that's going to play a role in his decision.
yes, they are. they are also losing 10 scholarships for each of the next 3 years, but that shouldn't affect next year's team much at least.
So ESPN isn't functioning right now on my cable box or anywhere else in the house.....what's happening? I saw him come up and then lost signal, on only ESPN
Which means no 1st pick QB for the Browns. If RGIII is there when we pick, I bet we trade down with either Miami or Wash.
If Colt still isn't cleared to play by the Pitt game, we will have to at least take another 3rd/4th round QB though, as we will need someone if Colt ends up Crosby'd from this.
And Blackmon felt way out of reach BEFORE the announcement . . .
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And Blackmon felt way out of reach BEFORE the announcement . . .
Well, the Rams or Jags were going to take him before we had a chance anyway. However, maybe now some team will think we're going to grab Griffin, trade with the Rams or Jags to take Griffin, and that leaves Blackmon sitting there for us.
Blackmon could still fall (I doubt it though). The silly combine will determine more than it should as usual and someone's "stock" may rise enough that both the Rams and Vikes go for something other than WR (of course I don't see him slipping past Jax, but who knows).
Best case scenario for us.
The Colts decide they are going to roll with Manning and decide to put enough talent around him to win NOW.
They are going to get offered 3 first round picks by teams like Miami, Washington, etc.
But, we're the only team in need of a QB that has two first round picks to give THIS YEAR.
Rather than taking 3 first round picks and having to wait for the 2014 draft, the Colts go all in. Take our two firsts and our second to try to win now.
They ignore the future and go all in for the now with Manning.
We move up to #1 and take Luck.
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Best case scenario for us.
The Colts decide they are going to roll with Manning and decide to put enough talent around him to win NOW.
They are going to get offered 3 first round picks by teams like Miami, Washington, etc.
But, we're the only team in need of a QB that has two first round picks to give THIS YEAR.
Rather than taking 3 first round picks and having to wait for the 2014 draft, the Colts go all in. Take our two firsts and our second to try to win now.
They ignore the future and go all in for the now with Manning.
We move up to #1 and take Luck.
Sounds more like worst case scenario to me. I'd rather have the 3 picks.
I'd rather have a Quarterback than 3 picks.
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Which means no 1st pick QB for the Browns. If RGIII is there when we pick, I bet we trade down with either Miami or Wash.
I was thinking about this same thing this morning. RG3 seems like a Snyder pick to me. I'd be all for an extra 3rd rounder to move down a couple spots and still be able to pick up Richardson, Coples, or whomever we're wanting.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't feel any unproven commodity is worth that price.
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I'd rather have a Quarterback than 3 picks.
i just don't see them not wanting our 2 1sts this year, our 2nd this year, and at least our 1st next year too (and probably our 2nd)
if it's the 2 1st's this year and our 2nd. i'd think about it hard. that is fair value and my god there would be an eruption of excitement (which is always fun even when it eventually blows up in our faces)
The thing is, other teams are probably going to offer them 3 firsts and maybe a 3rd or something like that.
My thinking is, we could be able to get it for 2 firsts and a 2nd because we can give that all to them THIS YEAR.
If you're the Colts, and you have these options, which would you take in a trade ...
Scenario A :
2012 Pick #5
2012 Pick #22
2012 Pick #36
Scenario B :
2012 Pick #7
2012 Pick #73
2013 First Round
2014 First Round
What would you do?
If I'm Indy, I know my window is closing with Manning.
I take scenario A, take 5 picks in the top 36 and run with it.
well, considering the standard is to downgrade each year by a round, 3 firsts in that manner would be considered a 1st, 2nd, and 2x3rds (this year and the 1st in 2014). So, of course, 2 1sts and a 2nd trumps that offer.
but, I think someone would try to overwhelm them with more. I hope you are correct because it could set us up longterm without affecting future drafts.
That's my point though.
It's easy to say that it's going to take all these picks to move up, but the fact is, we can offer a lot RIGHT NOW. That's something other teams can't do. (At least teams that would consider making a trade for a QB)
one HUGE thing though. FA is back to it's predraft starting point. if we make this trade, then we have alot more holes to plug in FA. if we don't, then we have 2 or 3 extra picks (depending on what we do at QB).
so, I would actually make this offer in mid-to-late February to the Colts and tell them take it or leave it. tell them we need to know what to do in FA and they need to decide.
might not work, but might as well give it a try.
Considering that the Colts owe Manning a $28 million roster bonus before the new league year begins, it's not the most outlandish thought. They're going to have to make a decision one way or the other before that point, unless they can somehow convince him to restructure his deal between now and then.
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I'd rather have a Quarterback than 3 picks.
So true...and throw in 1 of our 4th AND 6th to sweeten the pot to upgrade some depth/ST too....they get 4 extra picks THIS draft and we still have 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th round selections left....and haven't compromised ANY future drafts
I'd do that in a heartbeat (and try to do that in my mock, not sure the Colts GM is gonna listen though) but I doubt the Colts would do it....I think anyone who wants Luck has to throw in a 1st or 2nd in 2013
That's why I'd give up our 1st 2013 and try to keep this year's 2nd and 4th...both scenarios work for me
The highest price I'd pay would probably be both 1sts and 1x 4th THIS draft and the 1st 2013
great point. though, they could just decide to let Luck learn for 1 season (don't see it being more than that) while keeping Peyton the starter.
that would be awfully risky (if Peyton gets hurt, then his trade value would be near nil and they wouldn't trade Luck at that point). not to mention they couldn't bolster next year's team for a Superbowl run (which seems ridiculous after seeing the Colts this year)
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Considering that the Colts owe Manning a $28 million roster bonus before the new league year begins, it's not the most outlandish thought. They're going to have to make a decision one way or the other before that point, unless they can somehow convince him to restructure his deal between now and then.
Yup, money will be a huge factor for them. I don't see many scenarios that don't involve the Colts taking Luck. Manning is hurt and may never be the same. They may not even have Manning to go all-in with.
IMO, they're taking Luck. I'd give it a 95% chance. The other 5%......if some team comes by and offers them 3-4 1st rounders and 3-4 2nd rounders too. Something completely over the top would have to turn them into sellers.
If Luck is as good as everyone thinks, NO package will be enough to trade away "the next Elway". And with Manning being hurt and old, why would they trade him away?
And why does anyone assume the only way to get a QB is to find one in the top 3 slots in the draft? Do we have to rattle off the QBs that are currently atop the NFL that weren't drafted there? Please. We have lots and lots of holes to fill anyway, we're in no position to be giving up the next two draft for one body.
Give me 6 in the top 4 rounds (or more if we can trade down some more).
Problem for the Colts is...what Offense do you learn behind Peyton? Manning runs his own Offense....that's why the Colts backups struggle so much (and probably why the management didn't bother getting a decent backup in...they knew they'd suck if Peyton is out)
This is highlander stuff imho....they CANT co-exist, not even for 1 year (and Colts wont pay Manning 20+ millions for 1 season anyway)...Luck stayed for his SR year, he's as day 1 ready as any QB picked in the last 10 years and I'm sure he wants to start day 1
There's no way Manning and Luck are both on the Colts roster next year.
The Colts are going to have to make a decision.
Go all-in for now and unload that pick and add a bunch of talent around Manning right now.
Or, cut ties with Manning and start building for the future.
I agree that I doubt the Colts want them to both be there. But, it is an option in their back pocket if they are not getting the offers that they want.
Well this SUCKS!
We had a chance of coming in at 3-4 and getting our QB. Now that has changed. We need to lose out and get a lot of help in order to get RG3 ...... assuming that he comes out.
don't underestimate Miami or Washington trading up for RGIII too
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Which means no 1st pick QB for the Browns. If RGIII is there when we pick, I bet we trade down with either Miami or Wash.
I was thinking about this same thing this morning. RG3 seems like a Snyder pick to me. I'd be all for an extra 3rd rounder to move down a couple spots and still be able to pick up Richardson, Coples, or whomever we're wanting.
Boy, I would sure hope that we got more than just another 3rd round pick. I would look to get their next year's 1st.
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Well this SUCKS!
We had a chance of coming in at 3-4 and getting our QB. Now that has changed. We need to lose out and get a lot of help in order to get RG3 ...... assuming that he comes out.
So........let me see if I have this straight: All the gurus were talking about Barkely - but now he's not even going to be in the draft........and you say now that even RG3 may not be in the draft?
Is that right? If so, the draft threads need to be locked out until we know who might even be in the draft. And further more, ANY draft pick is a crap shoot.
Now you all can go back to your boards and jump on the next player that "might" declare for the draft. 
*yawn*
Don't like it? Don't come in the draft thread. Seems pretty simple to me.
We just got closer to Weeden
I think we will target Tannehill now and lucky Colt gets another shot next season
This is so absurd. With our lack of talent (on both sides mind you), trading that much for Luck would be insane. And since it is the Browns, you and I both know that if we made that trade, Luck would likely suffer some career ending injury in game one as the result of a lavaman O'lay.
Picking QB is VERY risky but if you don't have one, you HAVE TO take those risks until you get it right
and before any Colt apologists chimes in....Colt got enough playing time and chance to show what he can and can't do than most guys picked after the 1st round...just ask Jimmy Clausen, Drew Stanton, John Beck, Croyle, Whitehurst, McGee etc etc
Colt is one lucky dude in terms of playing time for when he was picked and team/situation he was/is in...he should have never gotten this much playing time, esp. not as the undisputed starter...we were the only team that was desperate enough to "offer" him the job without a fight
Hell Brady Quinn was a 1st round pick and he got 3 starts one year, 9 the next, and was sent packing.
People said how he'd make us regret trading him ..... how he'd flourish with better talent ... and "better coaching" ........
However, 12 starts was enough to know about Quinn. He played QB in a timid manner ..... he did not handle pressure well ....... and his arm was not good enough to win in December in Cleveland. he had "decent" stats ..... more TDs than INT ....was over 50% passing ....... but he was simply not doing the things a successful NFL QB must do. Quinn could hit the short passes. He just couldn't do much as far as creating big plays.
He's now had zero pass attempts in the 2 seasons he has spent with Denver .... even though they had QB issues, and concerns .... and were searching for a direction at QB.
If Quinn hss had enough time and exposure for the Broncos to make a decision on him .... and had enough time and exposure here in Cleveland .... then I'm not sure why people think that McCoy hasn't .... and that he has somehow been "cheated". Hell, he's had 21 starts, and has been given the starting job twice. (Last year with Mangini, and this year)
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This is so absurd. With our lack of talent (on both sides mind you), trading that much for Luck would be insane. And since it is the Browns, you and I both know that if we made that trade, Luck would likely suffer some career ending injury in game one as the result of a lavaman O'lay.
Not sure about that.....but he'd probably refuse to play in Cleveland anyway. So, we're better off infusing this team with tons of talent instead of one guy.
I generally prefer trading down to up, but part of the draft strategy of trading down for julio jones has to consider the possibility of a trade up in subsequent years. I also think Indy will wanna get another ring before Peyton hangs it up because that team is built to win RIGHT NOW, not groom a future QB. We all can be wrong but if I was indy i'd take the best offer for first overall and grab some complementary talent.
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*yawn*
Don't like it? Don't come in the draft thread. Seems pretty simple to me.
Oh, I LOVE it. All the experts trading picks - selling us out to get..............................wait, the guy isn't even gonna be in the draft?
I love it! Shows what the board "experts" know.
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*yawn*
Don't like it? Don't come in the draft thread. Seems pretty simple to me.
Oh, I LOVE it. All the experts trading picks - selling us out to get..............................wait, the guy isn't even gonna be in the draft?
I love it! Shows what the board "experts" know.
So you're basically posting to get a pat on the back or to be a jerk.
I really liked Barkley but one big knock on him is that he is a FINISHED product and simply does not have the upside. Tannehill is still my favorite QB in this class especially when it comes to someone who is able to run this offense. He has the upside and with the right coaching, he will be a star QB in this league.
I believe Holmgren and Shurmur have this pride about being able to take a raw but talented QB and turn him into a great QB like a great blacksmith can take high quality ore and turn it into a Katana.
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Which means no 1st pick QB for the Browns. If RGIII is there when we pick, I bet we trade down with either Miami or Wash.
I was thinking about this same thing this morning. RG3 seems like a Snyder pick to me. I'd be all for an extra 3rd rounder to move down a couple spots and still be able to pick up Richardson, Coples, or whomever we're wanting.
Boy, I would sure hope that we got more than just another 3rd round pick. I would look to get their next year's 1st.
I was just going by the draft value chart. Last I looked they were 2 places behind us in the draft, and that was 200 points - a mid 3rd rounder. If we lose the last 2 and they win 1 or both, then that could certainly turn into more than a 3rd.
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I really liked Barkley but one big knock on him is that he is a FINISHED product and simply does not have the upside. Tannehill is still my favorite QB in this class especially when it comes to someone who is able to run this offense. He has the upside and with the right coaching, he will be a star QB in this league.
I believe Holmgren and Shurmur have this pride about being able to take a raw but talented QB and turn him into a great QB like a great blacksmith can take high quality ore and turn it into a Katana.
I wouldn't mind Tannehill as a late rounder... I think he does have a lot of upside but he is really raw...
I just think that if you factor in the "QB premium" and the bidding war between Washington, Miami and Seattle that we shouldn't settle for a 3rd.
Yeah, I can understand that for sure. Bidding wars could also help our cause. You might want to add Jacksonville to that list too, been reading a lot that yo gabba gabbert has been worse than terrible and seems to be playing scared. These more friendly rookie deals might make it easier to cut him.
As well, based on the way Jackson has played the last few weeks (while injured to boot) without his starting WRs, I'm thinking Seattle holds pat in early rounds. My early hunch is Seattle takes either DeCastro, Zach Brown, or Whitney Mercilus. This is assuming they re-sign Lynch, otherwise I can see Richardson (if he dropped that far) or Montee Ball.
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*yawn*
Don't like it? Don't come in the draft thread. Seems pretty simple to me.
Oh, I LOVE it. All the experts trading picks - selling us out to get..............................wait, the guy isn't even gonna be in the draft?
I love it! Shows what the board "experts" know.
Do you enjoy sounding like an uniformed moron?
Here's a scenario to think about...If we trade down our 1A pick if RG3 is on the board and somehow manage to get a 2013 first rounder...We could build a team around Colt in the 2012 draft and if he isn't the man with a decent team around him...we could trade our first two rounders in 2013 to move up to take Barkley....
May I be so bold as say , calling someone a Moron is not in very good taste !
That sounds like a great plan. But what if the team that has the #1 pick needs a QB. Then we are once again screwed.
Jim Irsay said tonight that if Manning played football in 2012 it would be for the Colts. So there goes all the Manning to be traded or released stuff that was being reported.
The real question is now what are they gonna do with Luck if they do in fact get the #1 pick. Manning takes 100% of the snaps in practice. The only reps the #2 gets is as the scout team QB. Thats it. You cant have a #1 draft pick taking zero reps for 3 or 4 years behind Manning.
Moral or the story, Colts are about to put that #1 pick up on Ebay.
In that scenario there is a good chance we wouldn't need to move up to draft a QB. 2013 could be another deep Qb crop - Barkley, WIlson, perhaps Bray, maybe someone else as well. Especially considering your premise that COlt shows us that he isn't the man.
Front office people have never lied.
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Front office people have never lied.
Fair point.
I'd argue that Manning is an exception to the rule. I think Irsay has too much love for the guy to dump him for pure business.
The bottom line is business, but I think Manning has a legit shot at being a good OC, and maybe someday a HC. As far as players who understand X's and O's ... he's amongst the top.
Long-term ... the guy warrants loyalty beyond mere loyalty, if that makes sense.
Perhaps not, but I'd say going into a thread that you obviously have no interest in and posting a "wow you guys are stupid" post is pretty moronic. I don't go into political threads and mock people for discussing situations that will probably never happen.
So looks like the Vikings have the #1 pick now lol
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So looks like the Vikings have the #1 pick now lol
Actually Indy still has the #1, and probably still will even if Min and STL lose, based on full schedule strength of opponents. Indy needs to win their last game to take themselves out of the #1 slot, with a Min or STL loss.
Well Merry Christmas Colt McCoy. Looks like you get 1 more year to suck ass in Cleveland. Or (maybe hopefully) Seneca finally gets his year to be the bride instead of the bridesmaid.
I'd trade our next 3 drafts in their entirety to move up and get Luck now. But, it won't happen...and we'll get to live with Colt Frye version 3.
And no, I'd rather have Colt than RG3.
What's even crappier is not only does this mean no Barkley and most likely no Luck...but it's one less player for someone to pick ahead of us which means no Blackmon EITHER. One of my two worst-case scenarios I laid out just yesterday.
The Factory of Sadness just keeps right on chugging.
i've said that from the beginning. manning has been that franchise since 99. if he still could play, I don't think they dump him like some ordinary player. Unless Luck demands a trade, I would draft him, and let manning play a few more years.
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I'd rather have a Quarterback than 3 picks.
i just don't see them not wanting our 2 1sts this year, our 2nd this year, and at least our 1st next year too (and probably our 2nd)
if it's the 2 1st's this year and our 2nd. i'd think about it hard. that is fair value and my god there would be an eruption of excitement (which is always fun even when it eventually blows up in our faces)
No kidding, and if we did that we deserve to suck.
If we trade, our 2nd this year has to be kept.
The most I give up is our first rounders this year and next years 1st round pick.
It is far and away the best, condensed, package any team can offer.
If the Colts want to string it out, sure, they could take some teams next 4 years of picks, but I doubt they would want to do that.
The more this goes on the more I want to see what QBs are going to be free agents this year.
Maybe bring in a guy like Jason Campbell and just keep the picks? Flynn??
Something tells me there is going to be a few guys who can come in and do a good job for 5-6 years....maybe more.
I also like Tanneyhill. I think he can be a good QB in the NFL. I'd consider him with our 2nd first rounder.
Damn it Barkley...
Mour...We cannot go QB just because we r done with McCoy...U just can't take the "Next Best"...That's a major gamble and would be right in there with what Minny and Tenn did last year with Ponder and Locker...
Now where do we go???
Woops...Hang on a minute...I just now saw Indy won last night...WOW...This is by no means a done deal for the 1 pick...
Odds r extremely high that the Rams would be much more open to trade talks than Indy...So that means Indy needs to beat Jax next week...And that means we r at 5 instead of 4 if Jax wins...Hmmmmm...
I guess Claiborne's our consolation prize if no Luck...hmmmm....
We still need to offer a Rams team a package of:
BOTH 2012 First Rounders
2013 First Rounder
A 2nd Rounder in either year
Any combo of 4 thru 7's...
Secure the QB and hit FA a little heavier than normal...
2 years from now we won't even THINK about what we gave for a FRANCHISE QB and FACE of CLEVELAND!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Well Merry Christmas Colt McCoy. Looks like you get 1 more year to suck ass in Cleveland. Or (maybe hopefully) Seneca finally gets his year to be the bride instead of the bridesmaid.
I'd trade our next 3 drafts in their entirety to move up and get Luck now. But, it won't happen...and we'll get to live with Colt Frye version 3.
And no, I'd rather have Colt than RG3.
What's even crappier is not only does this mean no Barkley and most likely no Luck...but it's one less player for someone to pick ahead of us which means no Blackmon EITHER. One of my two worst-case scenarios I laid out just yesterday.
The Factory of Sadness just keeps right on chugging.
Is it possible that the threat that Barkley could be drafted by the Browns played a part in the fact that he decided to stay in college?
Let's look at this. The way that the FO treated the concussion injury to a QB and the way that the fans and writers have been talking about McCoy, why would any player make the decision to put their livelihood's in danger. He's probably just hedging his bets that the Browns won't be in a position to draft him next year.
Frankly, I don't understand the hard-on that some of you seem to have for Andrew Luck and what you'd be willing to give up for him.
It simply defies logic! It's mind-boggling!
LMAO First you spew this beauty of reasoned logic:
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Is it possible that the threat that Barkley could be drafted by the Browns played a part in the fact that he decided to stay in college?
... and THEN you call out another poster on the logic of moving up for Luck?
Nice work dude. Thanks for the laugh!
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Frankly, I don't understand the hard-on that some of you seem to have for Andrew Luck and what you'd be willing to give up for him.
It simply defies logic! It's mind-boggling!
And it's even more Mind Boggling that u don't understand the importance of acquiring what's got a HIGH LIKELIHOOD of being a STUD running your offense... 
Listening to Mike & Mike this morning, they said that QB's taken #1 in the first round are a 50% proposition, according to ESPN analysis. Only 8 out of 16 have turned out to be worth it. That's 50-50, a coin toss.Throw in the Cleveland factor and it's about 75% probability that Luck busts if we take him.
Jokes aside, I don't think we should trade 3 first round picks for a 50% shot.
Sorry folks, but giving up...
BOTH 2012 First Rounders
2013 First Rounder
A 2nd Rounder in either year
Any combo of 4 thru 7's...
...is just plain "nuts".
And all those people on here that keep saying "you NEVER pass up a Luck type franchise QB", have to also believe that the Vikes would take him if they get the #1 (and the Rams may have to consider it). If Jax beats Indy next week (assuming we lose out), then we pick 4. The MOST I would go for Luck would be our 2 firsts this year, that's it. We have too many holes to give up nextr years #1. Who exactly is going to block for Luck opr catch his passes if we give up 2 year's drafts? Plus, it also has looked like Luck may dictate where he wants to play ( like Eli) and I doubt we are high on that list.
I don't see why we'd have to offer a deal like the Falcons gave us to get Luck. Our two No. 1s should do it, given that the team holding No. 1 overall would only be dropping back three slots. No way would I give up next year's No. 1 as well.
I think Daniel Snyder will drive up the asking price for the number one pick. I see him making some idiotic deal that only he would make for Luck. Also, I agree with those that think the Colts stick with Manning, He will be 36 in March and could go another 5-6 years.I really see them trying to get one more superbowl ring with Manning before he retires. Someone else pointed out, and I think it could be a real possibility that the Colts could be eyeing someone like Richardson in a trade down.
The amount of people on this board who undervalue the Quarterback position is amazing to me...
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The amount of people on this board who undervalue the Quarterback position is amazing to me...
Well, I think many people (including me) might also worry about overvaluing a particular player.
What in the world are you talking about ? .. For the sake of argument , two wrongs don't make a right .. I really look forward to catching up on the board everyday , but despise the " My dad is bigger than your dad " type of pissing contest that seem to permeate the posts .. All I'm suggesting is a little more civility by ALL !
Merry Christmas to all
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And all those people on here that keep saying "you NEVER pass up a Luck type franchise QB", have to also believe that the Vikes would take him if they get the #1 (and the Rams may have to consider it).
It's not about not passing a franchise QB, it's about not passing on one if you don't have one. The way to look at it concerning the Rams/Vikings is that they can get far more by trading the pick than they can by dumping their current QB. Plus, Sam Bradford is 1 year removed from ROY and Ponder hasn't even played a full season yet after going 12th. I think either of those teams could be swayed by the right offer. Of course, I think the Colts can as well... like Heckert said, I don't believe that anyone is unobtainable.
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Listening to Mike & Mike this morning, they said that QB's taken #1 in the first round are a 50% proposition, according to ESPN analysis. Only 8 out of 16 have turned out to be worth it. That's 50-50, a coin toss.Throw in the Cleveland factor and it's about 75% probability that Luck busts if we take him.
Jokes aside, I don't think we should trade 3 first round picks for a 50% shot.
You can't look at it that way though. Many of the busts had issues that Luck doesn't possess. JaMarcus Russell had character concerns, David Carr had a wonky delivery, etc. If Luck busts, it's not going to be because of character, intelligence or mechanics... to me the only way he busts is if he goes to a non-WCO team and they try to force him into a different system because the WCO is perfectly catered to his strengths.
Looking at it that way, I think Luck has a really high floor in the WCO with a legitimate chance to be a stud. To me, that's worth the risk. Think of all the time, energy and resources we've spent on guys who were much less likely than Luck to succeed. I'd rather end the QB dilemma for good and work on fixing everything else after.
I just don't know about the trading up issue. Part of me says that what is being suggested on the board is too much for one player and another part says if this solves the QB situation for the foreseable future then we pull the trigger.
In the end I guess I will just trust H&H and there judgement. I will say if we do decide to go for Luck I hope we give it all up this year and move on.
I guess Luck, a free agent WR( Jackson, either Vincent or Desean) and DE ( Mathis, Avril etc.) wouldn't be so bad.
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The amount of people on this board who undervalue the Quarterback position is amazing to me...
I would rather not spend 3 #1 draft picks and RUIN Andrew Luck because we can't put a team around him...Because I DO value the QB position THAT MUCH....I would rather WAIT until QB is one of the last few pieces of the puzzle that we need...(and we are so far away from that scenario we can only dream about it) And THEN gamble with the draft picks to get the Big Arm....But if we cannot put the Big Arm into a semi stable situation...all we are going to do is set him up for failure and get him onto the top ten draft bust lists you see on NFL Network.
So in reference to your quote.....the amount of people who would gamble away our only chance at building our team only to set a good player up for failure....amazes me.
I'd rather see us go after Jason Campbell or Matt Flynn in FA and use our picks this year on enhancing the rest of our squad. Three firsts for one guy is just way too much to pay when our needs far surpass anything one guy is going to bring to the team.
Average offensive talent + Elite Quarterback > Average Quarterback + Elite offensive talent.
Quarterbacks who have won Super Bowls since 1995...
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Ben Rothlisberger
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Brad Johnson
Trent Dilfer
Kurt Warner
John Elway
Brett Favre
Troy Aikman
Steve Young
I'll take my chances drafting an elite Quarterback.
Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are the exceptions.
You want a Super Bowl? You better have an elite Quarterback.
Quarterbacks in the playoffs if they started today ...
Tom Brady
Ben Rothlisberger
Matt Schaub (I know, TJ Yates, but Schaub got them there)
Tim Tebow
Joe Flacco
Mark Sanchez
Tony Romo
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Alex Smith
Matt Stafford
Matt Ryan
That's 12 Quarterbacks ...
8 first round Quarterbacks.
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Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are the exceptions.
You want a Super Bowl? You better have an elite Quarterback.
Well, when you're talking about "drafting an elite QB", you probably shouldn't count Favre, Warner, or Brees either, since they weren't drafted in the first round.
If you think there's an elite QB outside of round 1, that's a different discussion. I'm simply saying that you can't build a team then just insert a QB and it work.
The biggest problem now, is that I only see one elite QB in this draft (Luck), and he won't be there when we pick.
I don't understand the fascination with Flynn, we'd be giving up on our 3rd round QB who hasn't shown much, to get a 7th round QB who's shown even less (and paying a lot for it).
I'd be more interested in getting a Kyle Orton, Alex Smith (if available), or Jason Campbell type - if we're that convinced that McCoy isn't the guy.
But more than that I'd be interested in keeping McCoy for another year and staying put. I'm just not that impressed outside of Luck.
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I would rather not spend 3 #1 draft picks and RUIN Andrew Luck because we can't put a team around him...Because I DO value the QB position THAT MUCH....I would rather WAIT until QB is one of the last few pieces of the puzzle that we need...(and we are so far away from that scenario we can only dream about it) And THEN gamble with the draft picks to get the Big Arm....But if we cannot put the Big Arm into a semi stable situation...all we are going to do is set him up for failure and get him onto the top ten draft bust lists you see on NFL Network.
I feel a need to respond to this. I would love to wait for QB to be the last piece to the puzzle. So would most Browns fans. However, understand a few things: the bust rate SOARS for QB the deeper in the draft you go and it's really rare to find a bonafide stud QB at the top of the draft as well as actually having a Top 5 pick and extra 1st as ammo to go get him.
Would putting Luck onto the team right now be perfect? Nope. However, if Heckert dips into free agency for our offense and patches the line (Steinbach will help)/adds a weapon or two as well as focuses the rest of our draft on offense, I believe with 100% conviction that we're not bad enough to "ruin" a QB next year. Heck, I'd even venture to say that we'd be a better situation than most teams who draft a QB 1st overall. Stafford had it rough behind a much worse OL than ours and got injured multiple times. Is he ruined now or are the Lions going for their first playoff berth in who remembers how long?
There's another risk you have to consider when choosing not to go for a franchise QB. There's a legitimate chance that even if we try to build up a team before we get the QB that we're never able to find him and stay mediocre for a long time. To me, I'd rather deal up for Luck and gamble that he'll be OK for a year or two than try to get lucky on a franchise QB in the future.
You can bang your head all you want, but if Luck is truly what the scouts say he is, you're still wrong.
The time to take an elite QB? Whenever you don't have one. Period.
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You can bang your head all you want, but if Luck is truly what the scouts say he is, you're still wrong.
The time to take an elite QB? Whenever you don't have one. Period.
Tough to argue that. Goes against several of the arguments that you ALWAYS draft an elite QB (like people saying Minnesota gives up on Ponder or the Rams give up on Bradford). I'm not saying they're elite, but it's still too early to tell on those guys.
For me, it comes down to asking price. If the Colts (or whoever's picking first) gives us Luck for only some picks in the 2011 draft, I think long and hard about it. But if they want anything beyond this year (meaning we have 2 years with Luck and really no additions of true top flight playmakers around him), then I'd probably walk away. That's just my "breaking point."
IMO, though, I think the Colts take Luck and, to trade out, they want a king's ransom. And that's just not worth it to me.
JMHO
Like I said earlier in this thread, I think if Indy gets the #1 pick, they're going to keep Manning and try to win now.
Manning had 3-5 solid years left. They'll go all in and try to win another Super Bowl or two.
We can offer them the most help RIGHT NOW.
Give them both 1's and our #2 this year and I think Indy jumps all over that deal.
If by some miracle...Luck drops to us at 4 then YES BY ALL MEANS you Draft Andrew Luck....BUT you do not ...I repeat...YOU DO NOT give up the only chance to build this team to get him.
Because I GUARANTEE we will RUIN him or run him out of town. Without an OLine, a running game, or a recieving threat...he WILL FAIL....Go back and look at your lists....and tell me how much each team GAVE UP to DRAFT that player....and HOW LONG after giving up(if they gave up anything) they had to wait before that SB win......
Did GB give up anything for Rodgers???? No....(Rodgers had receivers and a luxury to sit)
Did the Colts give up anything for Peyton???No...(Peyton had Marshall Faulk)
Did Pittsburgh give up anything for Ben???No...(Ben rarely threw tha ball and Pitt had a GREAT running game)
Did the Pats give up anything for Brady???No...(Great team to start with)
Did the Cowboys give up anything for Aikman???No.....(they held the #1 and a crapload of picks to build with)
So what do we have???? and you want to give up 3 1st rounders????
Every other team on you list received their QB by other means unless you want to consider Eli....they gave up some picks(can't find what they were)...and even then it took 4 years to get to the Super Bowl...(and they still berate Eli) ....we won't even give Colt 2 years in the same offense...you think we will give Andrew Luck 4 years after trading away the best chance of putting talent around him????
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Average offensive talent + Elite Quarterback > Average Quarterback + Elite offensive talent.
Quarterbacks who have won Super Bowls since 1995...
Aaron Rodgers 24th overall
Drew Brees 32nd overall
Ben Rothlisberger 11th overall
Eli Manning 1st overall
Peyton Manning 1st overall
Tom Brady 199th overall
Brad Johnson 227th overall
Trent Dilfer 6th overall
Kurt Warner UDFA
John Elway 1st overall
Brett Favre 33rd overall
Troy Aikman 1st overall
Steve Young 1st of Supplemental Draft
I'll take my chances drafting an elite Quarterback.
Most are elite QBs. I won't get into how many other first round QBs have NOT won a superbowl but it's a massive list.. or how many #1 overall QBs have not won a superbowl, also a nice list.
How each of these QBs came to win superbowls is as varied as it can get, some started right away, some waited, some won with their first teams, some moved around first, some had success early, some not for years... the one thing they all have in common is that before they won a superbowl, they had some very good talent around them on offense and at least a good defense.
Not a single QB on that list ever had anybody pay a kings ransom and sell out to move up to get them like some people are suggesting we do. I believe the closest is the Eli Manning/Philip Rivers deal in which they traded firsts (a 1 and a 4 overall), and the Chargers got a 3rd that year and a 1st the following year...
The question is not do we need much better and more consistent QB play, of course we do... the question is what is the most prudent way to get it.... and my thoughts change almost daily on that.
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LMAO First you spew this beauty of reasoned logic:
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Is it possible that the threat that Barkley could be drafted by the Browns played a part in the fact that he decided to stay in college?
... and THEN you call out another poster on the logic of moving up for Luck?
Nice work dude. Thanks for the laugh!
So, you think that Barkley didn't consider that he might be drafted by the Browns? I honestly think that it could have played a part in his decision.
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Frankly, I don't understand the hard-on that some of you seem to have for Andrew Luck and what you'd be willing to give up for him.
It simply defies logic! It's mind-boggling!
And it's even more Mind Boggling that u don't understand the importance of acquiring what's got a HIGH LIKELIHOOD of being a STUD running your offense...
Oh, I do, but I don't think any of these QBs are Peyton Manning, where you have your OC on the field.
Currently, Shurmur is the OC and nobody knows who they'll bring in as the OC or who'll take that ridiculous job under THIS head coach.
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Sorry folks, but giving up...
BOTH 2012 First Rounders
2013 First Rounder
A 2nd Rounder in either year
Any combo of 4 thru 7's...
...is just plain "nuts".
It's certifiably insane!
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LMAO First you spew this beauty of reasoned logic:
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Is it possible that the threat that Barkley could be drafted by the Browns played a part in the fact that he decided to stay in college?
... and THEN you call out another poster on the logic of moving up for Luck?
Nice work dude. Thanks for the laugh!
So, you think that Barkley didn't consider that he might be drafted by the Browns? I honestly think that it could have played a part in his decision.
If he stayed in college it was to try to win a championship and improve himself.. if he improves himself he will go at least as high if not higher than he would have this year, which means he is going to go to a really bad team.. there is nothing he can do to avoid that unless his bold masterplan is to sort of tank this year in hopes he drops and gets drafted in the 20s by a much better team, then he runs the risk of sitting for a few years...
It's a catch 22.. you want to excel and be drafted high, doing that means you generally go to a pretty bad team... I'm sure he understands that.
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Like I said earlier in this thread, I think if Indy gets the #1 pick, they're going to keep Manning and try to win now.
Manning had 3-5 solid years left. They'll go all in and try to win another Super Bowl or two.
We can offer them the most help RIGHT NOW.
Give them both 1's and our #2 this year and I think Indy jumps all over that deal.
The Colts would also have a top pick in every round of the draft. Who says they can't help themselves to win now with taking Luck and using those others to "win now".
I still haven't read a single logical reason why the Colts would not select Luck. IF he's as a lock elite QB as every scout, NFL GM, media member and internet message board talker says he is.....WHY would they not take him? Manning is old and just missed an entire year because of a problem with his neck (not a minor broken bone in his non-throwing arm). And they, of all teams, should know what an elite QB can do for a franchise.
Do you think they would trade the #1 pick for 3 first rounders and a 2nd rounder back in 1998 knowing what Manning would do over the next 13 years (11 Pro Bowls, 4 MVPs, Super Bowl win, Super Bowl MVP, deep playoff runs almost every year, lock HOFamer & Colts career leader in wins, passing yards, TDs)? HELL FREAKING NO!
And with Manning's cost, known/unknown injury status, age and seeing they have a chance to replace a HOFamer with a potential HOFamer at the toughest position in professional sports....why would they trade that gift away for a bunch of random picks? It doesn't add up. And on top of that, with the new CBA, Luck isn't all that much money on the cap (compared to Bradford's deal). AND one more, if they do want to win now, they obviously need a #2 QB, since they don't have one. If Manning were to get a different injury in week 13, they need someone to step in......and Luck would be that man.
If Manning was 23 years old and in perfect health coming off a 50 TD season.......I can see the debate to pass on Luck. But with all the real factors swirling around Manning, why would they not want to select him?
And for Luck, it would be a near perfect place to start out his career. He can learn behind one of the greats of all time, no immediate pressure to perform on a crappy team, being a LA guy he gets to play in a dome not some cold weather stadium like Cleveland or Buffalo, all the teams in his division are mild to warm weather teams (and aren't traditional powerhouses) and he can see how well it worked for Aaron Rodgers to hold a clipboard for a while. And the Colts franchise already knows how to cater to a star QB and surround him with talent.
Unless his dream is to play on the West Coast, NY or in Miami......I don't see why he'd have a problem with Indianapolis.
So, why would Indy be so eager to give up Luck? The "you do whatever it takes to get that franchise QB when he's available" statement doesn't just get used for teams that stink and don't have one....it also can be used on a team with an aging franchise QB that just missed an entire season with a neck problem.
Oh, and another thing, now that Barkley is out (and especially if RG3 is out) then I'm going back to my original plan.. which was to draft an offensive playmaker at 3 or 4, draft a right tackle in the second round... and trade the Falcons pick with somebody for their first round pick next year and go with Colt again next year.. or Wallace if they deem him to be that much better.
That way we add some help on offense for this year and we defer that additional first round pick to next year in case we need it to move up and get a QB... and with Barkley and RG3, plus anybody who steps forward next year, it will probably be a decent QB draft...
If there is no Barkley and no RG3, then we go back to whatever the best pick for the Browns is. I don't see another QB worth the #2-6 pick in this draft.
If that's the case, and if we don't make a move in free agency, then I suppose that we might look at a QB with our 2nd 1st rounder ...... or maybe our 2nd or 3rd round picks.
Or maybe they take a flyer on Flynn. That's certainly not my first choice ...... but who knows.
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Quarterbacks in the playoffs if they started today ...
Tom Brady
Ben Rothlisberger
Matt Schaub (I know, TJ Yates, but Schaub got them there)
Tim Tebow
Joe Flacco
Mark Sanchez
Tony Romo
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Alex Smith
Matt Stafford
Matt Ryan
That's 12 Quarterbacks ...
8 first round Quarterbacks.
For the record, the QBs not taken in the first round.
Tom Brady - 6th round (199th pick overall)
Matt Schaub - 3rd round (90th pick overall)
Tony Romo - UDFA
Drew Brees - 2nd round (32nd pick overall)
Two of the 4 non-first rounders are probably among the most likely to make it to the Super Bowl (Brady, Brees) and both of them have already won Super Bowls.
It should be noted that Brees was the first pick of the second round.
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LMAO First you spew this beauty of reasoned logic:
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Is it possible that the threat that Barkley could be drafted by the Browns played a part in the fact that he decided to stay in college?
... and THEN you call out another poster on the logic of moving up for Luck?
Nice work dude. Thanks for the laugh!
So, you think that Barkley didn't consider that he might be drafted by the Browns? I honestly think that it could have played a part in his decision.
It COULD have.....but that's the same factor in EVERY draft. If you're going to be a top 5 picks, you're more than likely going to a small market crappy team. I don't think he thought "Cleveland" at all. Heck, anyone could have moved up ahead of us to pick him too. And he could always pull a Eli and simply say, "don't draft me Heckert."
I think Barkely wanted to not only be the big man on campus for a BCS title contending team.....but the biggest man in college football that would probably win the Heisman trophy and play for a BCS title contending team. This is his year to shine.
And like someone posted yesterday, his parents are wealthy and he probably has an insurance policy against a major injury. So, it's no big deal for him to stick around one more year and "be a kid".
I think some are giving too much credit to our suckiness to think it played any factor in Matt's decision.
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Who said ANYTHING about an elite QB vs Average or above average....I am merely talking about WHEN to try and get that elite QB...and RIGHT NOW when we cannot put him in a semi stable situation...and give him a chance to succeed....is NOT the right time to go and give up 3 FIRST rounders!!!!
And WHEN exactly is the right time Pete???
When you've built a team that's 8-8 or 9-7 and you're drafting 22nd???...We're talking about 3 or 4 spots in a move up...And you're telling us that we CANNOT build this team if we lose some picks???...Seriously???...Open your mind a bit...
DAVE...Way off the mark...This is FAR from a 50-50 shot at success...This kid has EVERYTHING...These chumps that say 50-50 with high round one QB's are talking the likes of Gabbert/Smith/Ponder/Locker...NONE of whom are even in the same stratosphere as Luck...HUGE difference...
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Like I said earlier in this thread, I think if Indy gets the #1 pick, they're going to keep Manning and try to win now.
Manning had 3-5 solid years left. They'll go all in and try to win another Super Bowl or two.
We can offer them the most help RIGHT NOW.
Give them both 1's and our #2 this year and I think Indy jumps all over that deal.
They'd be fools not to jump at that and the Browns would be fools to offer that much for moving up 3 or 4 spots. Period!
I don't give a damn if it's the first pick of the draft. You don't give up that much to move up 3 or 4 spots! You're sitting at 4 or 5 and you're giving up 2 first rounders! That's a Butch Davis move to move up one spot and give up a second rounder!
You're not moving up for the pick. You're moving up for A FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK!
Throw your draft charts out the window here. A franchise Quarterback is MUCH more valuable than 3 picks.
If it took both our 1's, our 1 next year and a 3, I STILL make the trade.
All quarterbacks have warts. With Barkley gone, Luck now has the weakest arm of the remaining QBs likely to go in the first 2 rounds. He has his strengths but so do the the other qbs.
Foles has a Howitzer for an arm. EJ Manuel looks a lot like Duante Culpepper back when he was a good QB. Jones the big arm and quick release. Tannehill great mobility and a strong arm and ran the Mike Sherman offense. Griffin is a better athlete than Michael Vick and has really good accuracy.
We can argue all we want about if it's the right thing or not, but the fact is, Andrew Luck will be a Cleveland Brown next year.
You think part of reasoning for trading down last year to pick up another 1 this wasn't to give us more ammo to move up for Luck if we needed to?
Holmgren will want Luck. Holmgren will give up what is necessary to get that pick.
I'm telling you now, Andrew Luck will be a Cleveland Brown in 2012.
And I'm sure you're going to be here to complain that we gave up too much, but it's happening.
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If he stayed in college it was to try to win a championship and improve himself.. if he improves himself he will go at least as high if not higher than he would have this year, which means he is going to go to a really bad team.. there is nothing he can do to avoid that unless his bold masterplan is to sort of tank this year in hopes he drops and gets drafted in the 20s by a much better team, then he runs the risk of sitting for a few years...
It's a catch 22.. you want to excel and be drafted high, doing that means you generally go to a pretty bad team... I'm sure he understands that.
Maybe you're right. Maybe he stayed in with the hopes to win a national championship or bowl win with USC.
He might go ahead of where he would have this year (which looks to be either the 4 or 5 spot). Some other QB is going to be there next year challenging him for the top QB prospect. Nothing is a given.
Oh? Do you think that the Colts are a bad team? Without Manning, they appeared to be. They've shown some spunk the last two weeks and could be in position to draft Luck. I don't think sitting behind Manning a year or two should be taken as going to a 'bad team', despite the record.
Luck's arm is stronger than Griffin's.
And please don't suggest RG3 is as good of a runner as Vick is. It's not even close.
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You're not moving up for the pick. You're moving up for A FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK!
Throw your draft charts out the window here. A franchise Quarterback is MUCH more valuable than 3 picks.
If it took both our 1's, our 1 next year and a 3, I STILL make the trade.
You're moving up a pick that could potentially be your franchise QB. Wasn't Tim Couch supposed to be that when the Browns returned to the NFL? Yeah, that turned out well for us.
Let's dispense with the hero worship crap, this team needs more than a QB (franchise or otherwise) and unless we get some legitimate weapons on the offensive side of the ball, it doesn't matter who we have as the field general.
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers couldn't succeed with this team because the weapons aren't there. Pure and simple.
RG3 is not a franchise QB.
All this talk about not wanting to give up picks for Luck, yet everyone is dead set on wasting a pick on RG3.
I feel like the front office will stick with Colt and sign a DE in free agency.
1. Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU
1. Zach Brown, LB, UNC
2. Dwight Jones, WR, UNC
3. Levy Adcock, OT, Oklahoma State
4. Matt Reynolds, OT, BYU
4. Jarius Wright, WR, Arkansas
5. Doug Martin, RB, Boise State
6. Derrick Moye, WR, Penn State
7. Vaughn Meatoga, NT, Hawaii
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Wasn't Tim Couch supposed to be that when the Browns returned to the NFL?
You're comparing Luck to Couch now? Okay.
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4. Jarius Wright, WR, Arkansas
I like this pick a lot. But I feel like he's going to shoot up a lot of draft boards and end up going earlier than this.
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RG3 is not a franchise QB.
All this talk about not wanting to give up picks for Luck, yet everyone is dead set on wasting a pick on RG3.
Back up your RG3 statements.
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4. Jarius Wright, WR, Arkansas
I like this pick a lot. But I feel like he's going to shoot up a lot of draft boards and end up going earlier than this.
It will come down to the combine
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Wasn't Tim Couch supposed to be that when the Browns returned to the NFL?
You're comparing Luck to Couch now? Okay.
That's a pretty decent comparison for the hype coming out on draft day. Manning/Leaf are probably better comparisons though.
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RG3 is not a franchise QB.
All this talk about not wanting to give up picks for Luck, yet everyone is dead set on wasting a pick on RG3.
Back up your RG3 statements.
I have.
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/879183/page/0/fpart/3/vc/1
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Wasn't Tim Couch supposed to be that when the Browns returned to the NFL?
You're comparing Luck to Couch now? Okay.
That's a pretty decent comparison for the hype coming out on draft day. Manning/Leaf are probably better comparisons though.
If by decent comparison, you mean awful comparison, I agree.
1998 draft - Who do take first, Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf? That was the debate
1999 draft - Who do you take first, Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb or Akili Smith? That was the debate
There's no debate about Luck.
He's the #1 pick in the past 10 drafts.
True - but that's just due to the relative weakness of the rest of this years QB class (compared to 98/99 which were legendary QB years)
Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf would probably both be picked ahead of Luck - Couch and Luck (or Smith/McNabb and Luck) would still spark a debate right now.
I also think there's a good chance that Vick would have gone ahead of Luck.
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lol
Good response.
Do you think, "Ryan Leaf would go ahead of Andrew Luck" deserves an actual response?
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Luck's arm is stronger than Griffin's.
I haven't watched Luck as much as I've watched Griffin, but I've definitely seen much more velocity on passes from RGIII than from Luck. He doesn't throw full bore all the time, but when he needs to he really slings it.
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lol
Good response.
Do you think, "Ryan Leaf would go ahead of Andrew Luck" deserves an actual response?
Yes - I'm not sure you remember how close the Leaf/Manning debate was in 1998 - many many well renowned experts had Leaf rated higher. Kiper last week came out with an article listing Leaf as the 5th best QB prospect of the last 30+ years (note he does rank Luck higher at 2 overall, though I think that's a bit optimistic). http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7329933/the-top-10-quarterbacks-mel-kiper-ever-evaluated
The fact that one was awesome and one sucked seems to have clouded your memory.
I think if you put up Luck against another prospect on that list, the higher ceiling on most of the other prospects would have pushed them above Luck (who has an extremely high floor, but a lower ceiling).
Nope. My memory is just fine.
I know how close that was.
And I know how good of a prospect Leaf was.
I also know that Leaf has all the physical tools of Leaf and isn't a mental midget.
Vick and Manning are the only guys who might be picked ahead of Luck. No one else is close.
Top - Griffin's arm isn't great, but it is above average with the potential to become a rocket. Once his footwork improves and he uses his lower body more, he will be able to gun the ball.
His accuracy is fantastic, and he is incredibly intelligent. He is raw, but the upside is there to become a franchise quarterback.
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I also know that Leaf has all the physical tools of Leaf and isn't a mental midget.
I assume you mean Luck - and in that case he doesn't even have close to the arm strength of Leaf.
Manning wouldn't go ahead of Luck.
Manning's pro success is the only reason people say he might.
At the time he came out, he wasn't the prospect Luck is.
Manning was a ridiculous prospect back in the day. Like Luck, he would have been the No. 1 pick if he had left a year earlier. It's hard to say who would have done first, but Manning would have had a shot.
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Manning was a ridiculous prospect back in the day. Like Luck, he would have been the No. 1 pick if he had left a year earlier. It's hard to say who would have done first, but Manning would have had a shot.
And as close as Leaf was to Manning in that year, it would be hard to say that Leaf didn't have a shot as well.
I think RG3 plays on the 29th.... Would be interesting have knock down discussion after the game.. .I'm on record as a big fan..
If the Colts lose they get the #1 pick.
If they win (which is a possibility against Gabbert and the Jaguars) and the Rams and Vikings lose then those teams would have a coin flip to determine who would get the #1 pick (talk about an epic coin flip).
The Vikings took Ponder last year in the first round so they might not take Luck, although I would if I were them. The Rams would probably look to trade the pick because it would be hard to move Bradford's giant contract.
The best situation would be the Colts beat the Jaguars, the Vikings win one of their final two games (at Washington, vs Chicago), and the Rams lose out and gain the #1 pick.
One thing that worries me is that the Rams are probably going to clean house after the season, meaning the new regime would have no ties to Bradford.
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One thing that worries me is that the Rams are probably going to clean house after the season, meaning the new regime would have no ties to Bradford.
But why would they want to get rid of Bradford? If you are going to win the superbowl, you must have a top draft pick QB, they already have one.. why would they want a different one?
Maybe the new staff will determine that Bradford isn't the guy. Like I said it is unlikely they would draft a QB due to Bradford's giant contract, but I think the chances they take a QB are greater than 0%.
He was a #1 pick two years ago, how can he not be the guy?
****Obviously I'm being sarcastic... maybe we can be in this position.. we can draft RG3 and in two years when we are firing Shurmur, we can be deciding if we want to take Sammy Watkins with our top 5 pick to help out the QB or trade up and take our REAL franchise QB in Teddy Bridgewater from Louisville.
Let's not forget that when Manning came into the League he already had Marvin Harrison AND Marshal Faulk (and that Marshal caught 87 balls for over 1000 yards in Peyton's rookie year. Giving up our draft to get Luck would be stupid at this point, as we don't have the same playmakers Manning had and thus player development would be far different.
Somewhere here, on one of these threads, there was a post of the cap ramifications for St Louis if they cut or trade Bradford. I think it said they were prohibitive. Maybe someone who understands the cap can expand on the effects of dumping a 50M guaranteed contract. Conversely, I heard the Colts' owner (Irsay) on the radio saying that they would be able to handle the cap aspects if they kept Manning and drafted Luck.
If Manning is going to stay in Indy and play next year, and given that he has a lot of influence there, I really don't think they'll pick Luck. Manning is going to say, "I'm the QB and we need receivers, linemen, defenders, etc., not someone to carry a clipboard for four years." I see them trading down, if they in fact get the top pick.
I can't see the Rams or the Vikings scrapping their QBs and starting over, either. Now, that doesn't mean Luck falls, obviously. But any of those teams that gets the top pick will trade it. They will want a high top pick (Kalil, Blackmon, Richardson, Claiborn), not a mid-first rounder. We're in a great position to offer either both No. 1s this year or 1A this year and No. 1 next year. Not three picks, but just two. That would be sweet.
An interesting thought:Lets say Jacksonville loses to TEN this weekend and the 2-13 Colts play the 4-11 Jags. Jacksonville currently has the pick before us. If the Colts win then St. Louis is most likely to earn the #1 pick and would be in a better position to trade it for Luck as opposed to the Colts. If Jacksonville wins then in all probablility we move ahead of them to the #4 spot (possibly #3 if the Vikings win out). Do you hope Jacksonville wins to move up a spot, or that the Colts win to open up a trade scenerio for Luck?
Adam Vinatieri to start at QB for the Colts next Sunday.
Still better than the stiff they went with in the 2007 finale. Bastages!
The BIG assumption here is that Luck wants to play for us (all we know is that his dad made it clear "they" were going to evaluate their options, in a Manningesque way). Luck may end up deciding he doesn't care where he plays, but if he is going to engineer something, I highly doubt we would be on his short list.
I'm assuming that's something our front office would decide before trading the farm for him.
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The BIG assumption here is that Luck wants to play for us (all we know is that his dad made it clear "they" were going to evaluate their options, in a Manningesque way).
He should have 2 options.. play in the NFL or don't.
They have said no such thing. His dad said he was going to stay out of the process completely. Luck will play for whoever has the No. 1 pick.
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I feel like the front office will stick with Colt and sign a DE in free agency.
1. Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU
1. Zach Brown, LB, UNC
2. Dwight Jones, WR, UNC
3. Levy Adcock, OT, Oklahoma State
4. Matt Reynolds, OT, BYU
4. Jarius Wright, WR, Arkansas
5. Doug Martin, RB, Boise State
6. Derrick Moye, WR, Penn State
7. Vaughn Meatoga, NT, Hawaii
It's not bad. Not exactly how I'd go with it, but not bad.
While Claiborne would be a nice pick, I think there are more pressing needs. He would certainly help Haden but we need some more weapons on the offense or protection on the line.
I love the Zach Brown pick. If he's there with the second selection in the first round, I think it's a no-brainer.
I'm not sure taking another 2nd round UNC WR is what we should be looking for. I have no doubts that Dwight Jones would be a nice WR on some teams, I'm not sure it would be good for us. Maybe he could help Greg Little learn how to catch the ball.
I love the Levy Adcock pick too! That would be a great selection for the RT spot and would secure that position for many years.
I'm not sure about the Reynold's pick. That's a bit high to draft some OL depth as we have some of that on the team already. You could put him in at the G spot but you could address that with the 2nd round pick and get a higher quality player there.
I like the Jarius Wright pick for the speed component alone. It would give us a home-run threat and open up the field a bit more.
The Doug Martin pick is another great value pick. Boise State demolished Arizona State and he as a big part of it.
A third WR is a bit over the top, I think. We have additional needs. More help on the DL or another safety would be nice here. Even taking the NT from Hawaii wouldn't be bad or Phil Dawson's replacement.
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Wasn't Tim Couch supposed to be that when the Browns returned to the NFL?
You're comparing Luck to Couch now? Okay.
Not quite. You're the one calling Luck a franchise QB. I only made the comment that Couch was drafted to be the Browns franchise QB in 1999. He was the first pick of the new Cleveland Browns. Unfortunately, he never got the chance to become a successful Browns QB.
His agent should have told him that if he was drafted by the new Browns that he would refuse to sign a contract with them or to ever play a down for them.
And, if you were old enough to remember the 1999 draft, Couch was as equally touted as Andrew Luck is now.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=60960&draftyear=1999&genpos=qb
Couch was no where near as highly rated as Luck.
You should start your own Luck fan site.
I just looked and Overhypedprospects.com is available.
For the record, I was against trading up for Luck until Barkley announced he was returning to USC.
Some people do seem to think that Oliver isn't going to advise his kid to go to a hopeless situation:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82...-all-over-again
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Couch was no where near as highly rated as Luck.
Um... yeah. Whatever you say man. Whatever you say.
Mel Kiper has Andrew Luck as the #2 Quarterback he's EVER scouted. Behind only John Elway.
Couch didn't even make the article.
Someone posted it in this thread.
Continue making stuff up though, it's cool.
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Mel Kiper has Andrew Luck as the #2 Quarterback he's EVER scouted. Behind only John Elway.
Couch didn't even make the article.
Someone posted it in this thread.
Continue making stuff up though, it's cool.
So, Mel Kiper likes Stanford QBs?
The second best QB he's ever scouted. Mel Kiper has been discredited a long time ago as a scouting guru. I'd take Mike Mayock over him. Manning has been more productive than Elway. Tom Brady (that everyone overlooked) has been more productive than Elway. Aaron Rodgers (who I think will go down as the best QB to have ever played the game) is better now than Elway ever was.
Unfortunately for you, I don't hang my opinion on what Mel Kiper has to say.
And, I'm not making things up. I linked to a different 'draft guru' site that had Couch ranked as the #1 selection of the 1999 draft.
Plus, if you can believe Sports Illustrated, Kiper thought that Tim Couch was one of the best NFL prospects, even at the age of 18 and just finishing high school.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1007430/index.htm
So, if you want to go get a hard-on for Andrew Luck, go ahead. I won't help you get there.
You're just wrong. I really don't know what else to say to you.
So, he was the #1 pick in 1999. What's that mean?
It means the other Quarterbacks in that class were Donovan McNabb, Akili Smith, Daunte Culpepper, Cade McNown, Shaun King, Brock Huard, Joe Germaine, Kevin Daft, Michael Bishop, and Chris Griesen.
Couch going #1 in 1999 is completely irrelevant to how he would grade against Luck.
Whether you think Luck will work out or not, that's a different debate we can have. But to say he's not graded any highre than Tim Couch was is flat out wrong.
attitude and language are steering towards inappropriate / rude.
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So, you think that Barkley didn't consider that he might be drafted by the Browns? I honestly think that it could have played a part in his decision.
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Mel Kiper has been discredited a long time ago as a scouting guru.
I know things happen in three's, and you're on a roll, so I'll just wait for the next thing you say instead of retroactively finding another crazy thing.
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Some people do seem to think that Oliver isn't going to advise his kid to go to a hopeless situation:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82...-all-over-again
That was dated October 19th.
This is dated November 8th.
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Oliver Luck says he’ll be “not very involved” in Andrew’s draft-related decisions
Posted by Mike Florio on November 8, 2011, 11:43 AM EST
Getty ImagesThe fact that Oliver Luck, the father of Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck. played pro football has created plenty of speculation that Oliver will be intimately involved in Andrew’s decision-making processes when it comes to playing football at the next level.
Not so, Oliver Luck said on Monday night’s Bruce Smith Show with Johnny D in Virginia Beach. Oliver said he’ll be “not very involved” at all, explaining that he has an athletics department to run at West Virginia University.
Oliver Luck said that Andrew will make all decisions on issues such as the selection of an agent, the choice of a marketing representative, and pre-draft planning. ”I’ll give him some advice but I’ll try to take a subdued role in all of it,” Oliver Luck said
So....yeah.
I have seen RG3 a couple of times and he reminds me of Troy Smith, only a little faster. But how fast will he be after Harrison cheap shots his knees a few times. Which BTW the Browns will NOT in any get even. We have had chances to pick up Smith and nobody was interested. He is not big and strong. He is more the Vick type, fast but often injured. He put up big numbers at Baylor but thats Big12 where most games end 60 to 50 because nobody plays D. Barkley , same deal. To small.
Ha, the whole time I've been arguing with you over this, I thought I was responding to arch.
I was gonna say "You're better than that."
It all makes sense now though.
oh come on, harrison would never hit knees unless you put mini-helmets on them
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While Claiborne would be a nice pick, I think there are more pressing needs. He would certainly help Haden but we need some more weapons on the offense or protection on the line.
So...Let's say we get burned on getting 1 for Luck because we have a limit on what we're offering...And make no mistake about it...We will be offering...
We sit at 4 and Luck/Kalil/Blackmon go 1-2-3...
What do we go with for an Offensive Weapon or OT...Cause noone in their right mind goes Guard at 4...
I have a feeling your answer is going to fall into a major mistake category...Drafting for NEED in the Top 10...
Who's your pick???
Seems like Trent Richardson might fit need and BPA.
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We can argue all we want about if it's the right thing or not, but the fact is, Andrew Luck will be a Cleveland Brown next year.
You think part of reasoning for trading down last year to pick up another 1 this wasn't to give us more ammo to move up for Luck if we needed to?
Holmgren will want Luck. Holmgren will give up what is necessary to get that pick.
I'm telling you now, Andrew Luck will be a Cleveland Brown in 2012.
And I'm sure you're going to be here to complain that we gave up too much, but it's happening.
YEAH BABY!!!!!!!!!!!
That;s ALL I want for Xmas...
Holmgren is gonna be running outta time on his 5 year contract...This is year 3 coming up...And if we don't secure the QB that will be planted as our "Run with Starter"...He'd then be looking at year 4 to do it...And he'd be expecting that QB to do something PLAYOFF wise in his 2nd year...That's TOUGH unless it's a Luck type talent...And there just isn't another QB of Luck's caliber in the next 2 or 3 drafts...
U secure the FACE OF CLEVELAND...
U draft wisely the next 2 years...
U utilize FA wisely the next 2 years...
U re-sign key players ala Thomas/Haden/Rubin/Taylor/Sheard etc...
Year 4 u r IN THE PLAYOFFS...
U r right with Pitt and Baltimore again for once...
Year 5 u r FIGHTING FOR A RING...
Years beyond 5 u r CONSTANTLY fighting for RINGS beyond the Holmgren era...
Luck is the KEY...
Can it be done WITHOUT going after Luck???...Sure can...But Luck accelerates the process and solidifies the unquestioned most important position on any team in this league...
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And WHEN exactly is the right time Pete???
When you've built a team that's 8-8 or 9-7 and you're drafting 22nd???...
To be blunt ......YES.....
Where did GB get Rogers??? Pitt get Ben????
If you are going to give up first rounders to move up.... then you better be sure that you are not in dire need of those picks in order to succceed.....If QB is just one of the few pieces left instead of one of almost every position like we are now....you have several things
---the QB comes into a stable situation...the system has been around for some time and the team knows it...
---the team AROUND the QB has some talent and the QB doesn't have to carry the team right out of the gates as he is trying to learn the NFL
---you might not even HAVE to start him right away...if your vet QB is manageable
---you are not put into a position where you have gone bankrupt in your ability to draft help for the QB to succeed....You haven't mortgaged the future to get him because even if you gave up 3 first rounders....He was One of the LAST pieces and not the first...the pieces to help him succeed ARE ALREADY ON THE TEAM.
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The amount of people on this board who undervalue the Quarterback position is amazing to me...
I would rather not spend 3 #1 draft picks and RUIN Andrew Luck because we can't put a team around him...Because I DO value the QB position THAT MUCH....I would rather WAIT until QB is one of the last few pieces of the puzzle that we need...(and we are so far away from that scenario we can only dream about it) And THEN gamble with the draft picks to get the Big Arm....But if we cannot put the Big Arm into a semi stable situation...all we are going to do is set him up for failure and get him onto the top ten draft bust lists you see on NFL Network.
So in reference to your quote.....the amount of people who would gamble away our only chance at building our team only to set a good player up for failure....amazes me.
I understand your position. To play devils advocate, you might need to get the qb while you are in position to do so.
It's a lot easier sitting at 4-5 then if you wait until you are drafting in the 20's.
JMO
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Where did GB get Rogers??? Pitt get Ben????
GB didn't need a QB...Luxury pick that's panned out incredibly all around...
Pitt took a chance on a QB that wasn't highly touted and again is NOWHERE NEAR the caliber of Luck...
We do it your way and we're looking at a HIGH probability of failing to acquire a QB that can be anywhere near a GAME CHANGER...I know u know this...The lower in the draft a QB goes the less likely they r to be a solid QB...Of course there's those FEW that succeed...But u know damn well there's TONS MORE that don't at those lower slots...
Again...This team can add weapons and build the D even without the picks needed to be aggressive and go get Luck...
This gonna be a GREAT off-season on the boards...Numerous things to be debated...NASTILY at times...
It's all good...We're winners regardless what way we go...We get Luck and we r on our way...We KEEP the 2 firsts we have and we end up with a STUD at 4 or 5...(Claiborne or Blackmon)...And another solid player at 20+...And if we're SMART we go with Claiborne because I'm POSTIVE Blackmon's a Ram or Vike...Hell...Indy would take him at 2 with that OLD core they have...Wayne...
Our priority with Claiborne at 4 should be to follow it up with a WR or LB with Atlanta's pick...Good ones will be there...Then go the other in 2 and an OT worthy of STARTING DAY ONE in 3...I'd be ECSTATIC with that too...
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Oliver Luck said that Andrew will make all decisions on issues such as the selection of an agent, the choice of a marketing representative, and pre-draft planning. ”I’ll give him some advice but I’ll try to take a subdued role in all of it,” Oliver Luck said
So....yeah.
And why do you think that invalidates what I said earlier. Of course his dad isn't going to come out and say "we won't play for team X" at this point, but that "I'll give him advice" sure sounds to me like they are going to make sure he gets into a good situation. His dad was an NFL QB. He knows what it takes to succeed in the NFL and what situation will let his kid excel and he is going to steer him that way. I am not saying he won't come here, but i am saying I wouldn't bet against Luck having some some say in what team he goes to.
With the new CBA, you can draft a bit more for need. People here seem to forget that the CBA changed everything in the draft, as now top 5 picks are super cheap (Newton got like $5 mil/year guaranteed). It used to never make sense to draft a RT or say ILB top 5 because of the cost, but now it is far cheaper to draft that guy at #5 than to sing an even average pklayer in FA. I think the entire view of drafting is going to change over the next few years because of this.
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With the new CBA, you can draft a bit more for need. People here seem to forget that the CBA changed everything in the draft, as now top 5 picks are super cheap (Newton got like $5 mil/year guaranteed). It used to never make sense to draft a RT or say ILB top 5 because of the cost, but now it is far cheaper to draft that guy at #5 than to sing an even average pklayer in FA. I think the entire view of drafting is going to change over the next few years because of this.
Excellent point...
BPA according to NEED is very much in play now...
U still need to have 2 players very closely rated tho...Don't take your 10th rated player at 4 just because u have a need for said position...U miss on playmakers doing that...
This draft seems to be playing out perfectly for a trade down for the Front Office Brass. With Barkley staying put and Miami and Washington in dire need, I can see a Move down as a Viable option to pick up more Top tier talent. If we can Pick up another First next year It will allow us another year to evaluate McCoy and do a better job of surrounding him with pieces and another year in the system.
I would not mind if we went OT with the first pick, but Jeffrey or a DE might be a viable option too. As it stands right now with a trade down I would go either.
1.)Jeffrey/Reif
1b)Burfict/Curry
This is assuming Blackmon will be gone. I can see Richardson because it is apparant that Hardesty is not a Lead Back the only Hinge would be Hillis. I just don't like creating a hole. I would like to think they will both be back and healthy next year.
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1. Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU
1. Zach Brown, LB, UNC
2. Dwight Jones, WR, UNC
3. Levy Adcock, OT, Oklahoma State
4. Matt Reynolds, OT, BYU
4. Jarius Wright, WR, Arkansas
5. Doug Martin, RB, Boise State
6. Derrick Moye, WR, Penn State
7. Vaughn Meatoga, NT, Hawaii
It's hard to criticize this draft because we do have so many holes. But I think we need a playmaker and OL help up higher, a QB we can at least develop (Tannehill, Cousins?) and a pass rusher to bookend Sheard. If Adcock fell to the third, that's be great, but I doubt he will. As for LBs, that seems like an area we can address in free agency. Last year, Poslusny and Nick Barnett were available. Guys like that come up. I think WR is a must in Round One. We can't count on finding a true stud in later rounds. They will be there, but they're not easy to spot.
I had a dream the Browns successfully traded up for Luck and here's what we did to get him:
Two first rounders this year, next year's #1, this year's #1 and 3 low round picks between this year and next year.
This was a dream, mind you, but I'd be willing to trade that king's ransom to get a franchise QB assuming Heckert and Holmgren feel that confident that Luck is a once in a generation player.
That said, I think we need to jump on the Ryan Tannehill train. Seems like a Holmgren pick.
And then you woke up...Sounds more like a nightmare if you ask me.
j/c
To perhaps put things in one place, I have a question.
What exactly would you be willing to give up to move up to 1 and take Luck? 1sts this year only? Others from this year? Next year's picks? The following year's picks?
For me, I'd be willing to use picks from this year, but that's it.
I'd hate to land Luck, but then not be able to take any top flight talent in the next couple years to put with him, instead relying on the talent we have now and lower draft picks/FA.
If folks want to suck for luck, I can't think of anything that would suck more than to dip into next years picks to get the guy.
Luck is an extrordinary College QB. He has worked in a Pro-style offense and is Far and above the other QB Talent in this class. I don't have to look too far back to see another QB that was far and above his class in Bradford. Bradford went to a talent deprived team who also had the benefit of playing in the worst division in the league. Would I give up Two firsts and next years and a bunch of picks in between to achieve the same results..absolutely not. I wouldn't bite on any move up and that is just me. I know that QB's get ruined when they go to talent deprived teams, not the other way around. I would put the talent here and continue building the team. If #1 overall pick Bradford can't make his team better in two years in that division without trading up to get him and regressed I can't expect McCoy or Luck or anyone to have different results. No Thanks, I would never do it.
Good points on Bradford, hadn't thought of it that way. As you can see from my sig, I'm all about us getting Blackmon, though I fear we'd have to trade up to get him, too.
I like Blackmon..He won't be around when we pick though. I would rather trade Dallas a pick for Dez Bryant. I would trade next years first for him or two seconds. Take into consideration the learning curve for Receivers..Green being an exception. It is usually their third year they make the impact they are supposed to. That would give us a Weapon, get Desean Jackson and draft OT and I think we would be Okay.
I'm thinking the two No.1's this year, the No.2 this year. That's about it. We would only be losing a 1 and a 2.
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Luck is an extrordinary College QB. He has worked in a Pro-style offense and is Far and above the other QB Talent in this class. I don't have to look too far back to see another QB that was far and above his class in Bradford.
And Bradford didn't play in a Pro-Style Offense, he was a shutgun conversion prospect....there goes your analogy
The best "mix" imho would be the 2x 1st and 1x4th THIS draft and 2nd rounder 2013
but I suspect we will have to pay 2x1st + 4th AND next year's 1st, net cost would be the ATL pick in the 1st and 4th and our 1st next year, combined with the ATL deal last year our net cost would "only" be our 2013 1st rounder....that's pretty much the most I'd be willing to give up, but I'd do it
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Luck is an extrordinary College QB. He has worked in a Pro-style offense and is Far and above the other QB Talent in this class. I don't have to look too far back to see another QB that was far and above his class in Bradford.
And Bradford didn't play in a Pro-Style Offense, he was a shutgun conversion prospect....there goes your analogy
Coming from a guy that would take RG3..with the first pick? Really?
That scenario could be plausible although I'm not entirely sold on it. We could fill remaining hole this year and next through a commitment to spending in free agency. Also, with the high second this year we could go a couple directions and plug some holes.
I have noticed Reuben Randle( without checking I think that is his name), WR from LSU being rated high second on some sites but very little has been said on the board about him that I have seen. If we went with two 1s this year for luck we could probably get Randle with our 2 but I don't know much about him.
We could always hope the 1 we give up next year would be a late round pick. That would take the sting out of it.
David Wilson has all but announced his intentions to go to the NFL. He says he has his mind made up and will make his intentions known after the bowl game but his dad has heavily implied he's going pro and by David's words, it appears his dad isn't off base. I'm a big fan of his.
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Luck is an extrordinary College QB. He has worked in a Pro-style offense and is Far and above the other QB Talent in this class. I don't have to look too far back to see another QB that was far and above his class in Bradford.
And Bradford didn't play in a Pro-Style Offense, he was a shutgun conversion prospect....there goes your analogy
Coming from a guy that would take RG3..with the first pick? Really?
Yeah, really? Where did I say that?
I obviously want Luck with that 1st pick...I think I have stated many times in this thread that I don't have an opinion on RG3 either way yet...don't try to deflect your brainfart with stuff I didn't say, my point wasn't to defend Bradford or RG3...it was to reject your "analogy" and to defend Luck since he really doesn't compare much to Bradford
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Luck is an extrordinary College QB. He has worked in a Pro-style offense and is Far and above the other QB Talent in this class. I don't have to look too far back to see another QB that was far and above his class in Bradford.
And Bradford didn't play in a Pro-Style Offense, he was a shutgun conversion prospect....there goes your analogy
This is DawgTalkers, we don't let facts get in the way of our arguments here!
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I obviously want Luck with that 1st pick...I think I have stated many times in this thread that I don't have an opinion on RG3 either way yet...don't try to deflect your brainfart with stuff I didn't say, my point wasn't to defend Bradford or RG3...it was to reject your "analogy" and to defend Luck since he really doesn't compare much to Bradford
Of Course you do and you probably wanted Bradford and Jamarcus and Clausen and Quinn and Sanchez, etc. I don't have a brainfart my friend. The fact of the matter is they were viewed as "Elite" QB's. Thus the #1 pick in the draft. Anyway you spin it, Bradford being a number 1 pick on a bad team has translated as well as a third round QB on a bad team. Those are facts.
Or maybe it's not that Bradford doesn't have help. Maybe it's just that Bradford isn't any good?
I hated Bradford before the draft, and thought he was a waste of a pick. So far I've been right.
Ok, besides Steven Jackson, who else do the Rams have on offense?
Besides Rob Gronkowski, who do the Patriots have on offense?
That guy named Tom Brady that makes everyone around him better.
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Or maybe it's not that Bradford doesn't have help. Maybe it's just that Bradford isn't any good?
I hated Bradford before the draft, and thought he was a waste of a pick. So far I've been right.
Other than last year when he tore it up. Right now, Bradford has a moron of an offensive coordinator, a running back and nothing else. His offensive line is one of the five worst in the NFL. Bradford has played well.
60% completions, 18 TD's and 15 INT's. 5.9 yards per attempt in the worst division in football. A division that had defensive ranks of 16, 25, and 30 in the NFL.
If that's "tearing it up," I don't want a QB that'll tear it up.
Colt McCoy played Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England, New Orleans, etc. last year.
He completed 60.8% of his passes and 7.09 yards per attempt.
Did Colt McCoy "tear it up" last year?
If so, why give up on him, but give Bradford a pass?
They both suck.
Yeah, because stats tell the story. It's pretty obvious you haven't watched Bradford at all.
Nope. Never. I make opinions on people I've never watched play. It's the DawgTalkers way, right?
Bradford sucks. He won't be a starting QB in 3 years.
Tell me how Bradford "lit it up" though.
*Edit - But I'm sure you won't, because when someone disagrees with you, all you do is try to tell them they're stupid and haven't watched, rather than giving reasons for your opinion.
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Yeah, because stats tell the story. It's pretty obvious you haven't watched Bradford at all.
I think Sam Bradford is a turd.
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Yeah, because stats tell the story. It's pretty obvious you haven't watched Bradford at all.
I think Sam Bradford is a turd.
You haven't watched. I get paid for a fan site.
/Deep's response.
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Yeah, because stats tell the story. It's pretty obvious you haven't watched Bradford at all.
I think Sam Bradford is a turd.
You haven't watched. I get paid for a fan site.
/Deep's response.
Yeah because I talk about my work so often. Show me one time I have mentioned that to help my argument.
Bradford has been incredibly accurate this year while making good decisions. He makes great pre-snap reads and does an excellent job of spreading the ball around. His wide receivers are open less than the Browns' are, and he is constantly running from pressure.
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60% completions, 18 TD's and 15 INT's. 5.9 yards per attempt in the worst division in football. A division that had defensive ranks of 16, 25, and 30 in the NFL.
If that's "tearing it up," I don't want a QB that'll tear it up.
In the history of the NFL, that was one of the most successful rookie seasons in history.
If you wanna compare that season to veteran QB's, then you're right, but try comparing it to rookie seasons in history on bad teams...
Like I did in the very next post with Colt McCoy?
For the record.
I would be thrilled with Bradford at QB for the Browns. He's a very good QB and will be a Top 5 QB in a few seasons.
I think people discount what a luxury it is to have an All-Pro at LT. It makes the passing game way easier, which puts our ineptitude in even a worse light.
OK, so I'm glad we lost (draft position), but now I remember what we have in Hillis. No need to blow another hole in the lineup. Just bring him back. The guys who say don't draft a RB early are right. They have a short shelf life. You'd have to agree that Peterson is at or approaching the downside, and that team isn't rebuilt. So no thanks to Richardson. Forget Luck. Get Tannehill with 1B and let Shurmur earn his dough developing him. Let's go: WR (Floyd or Jeffery), QB (Tannehill), DE, RT. Trade down and get more picks. This thing could turn around sooner than people realize.
The Rams are missing like their top 3 WR too.
Forget Luck. Get Tannehill with 1B and let Shurmur earn his dough developing him.
That would be my plan. Hell I might even trade down with the 1a pick. We have a lot of areas to address.
This is how I would rate them
1. QB
2. RDE
3. FS
4. Weakside backer
5. RT
It is really bad when corner and receiver do not make the top 5 Fortunately RT we can get in FA with a guy like Andre Smith of the Bengals or in the 4th round.
FS Might be best to target in the 3rd. George Iloka would be a steal here
WIL Danny Trevathon in the 4th call it a day
RDE 2nd round Montgomery or Mercilus
QB at 1b
1a. ???? Claiborne, Blackmon, Trade down.
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Fortunately RT we can get in FA with a guy like Andre Smith of the Bengals or in the 4th round.
You've gotta be kidding me....... We are going to either "get a guy like Andre Smith" (who I heard earlier this year was playing very well), do you really think the Bengals are going to let him go? If they do, he's going to demand LT money................
One major thing i've noticed, rarely do good tackles become FA's. That's why we've had bad ones for the past couple years. Plus, remember that the player has to be willing to come to Cleveland...........
I hear this kinda stuff year after year on this board. It drives me nuts! I was so upset about going in for another Pashos this year, I was upset about Pashos last year..... I was upset about St. Clair the past two years before that. We got Kev Schaffer in FA, that really worked out........ He had one good year for us (Joe Thomas' Rookie Year?) and he still wasn't a good pass blocker. It's been a gigantic problem since Ryan Tucker moved to RG
RT needs to be addressed. If we can get Andre Smith (and he's healthy), great! But I seriously doubt it. And June cuts won't produce anyone either, it never does. It has hindered our offense season after season.
If we pick up a FA O-Lineman, get a guard. RT's in FA are generally trash. That's just a position we're going to have to draft. And a 4th round draft pick won't be a starter next year..... If they are, we're prob in trouble.
How bout RT with our 2nd 1st round pick or our 2nd round pick. No later than that. That'll be good for whoever is QB and that'll be good for running the ball. It's like the elephant in the room or something.
HELLO, we overlook it year after year after year, and newsflash, year after year it's a problem. It drives me absolutely nuts
Yes I am kidding you. I wake up in the morning and begin to think of ways to kid you. Here is a snickers bar for the drama queen. Wait I was only kidding.
the Bengals did NOT pick up his option. You dont have to wait for the june first cuts. You sign him at the start of free agency. If you dont get your tackle then you draft one. Just like every other position you wish to fill. Swear half this board acts like they are going through menopause lately.
Bengals also have a good RT in Anthony Collins
My thoughts on Morris Claiborne.
He has a good size for the position. Claiborne has elite man to man bump and run coverage ability that will translate to the next level. He really doesn't give up the big play and he tackles well. He also has good ball skills and a guy that plays with instincts. He was the most consistent CB in CFB this year. The only real play that he got beat that really comes to mind was the SEC Championship Game when he slipped on a double move against Georgia. He is a well-groomed CB and could be a #1 CB for many teams next year. The only thing is, he might have problems to start off playing some zone and off coverage because Patrick Peterson was having the same problems this year. That's really because LSU does not call conservative game plans and they never ask their CB's to play off. All of them are physical and can cover; but Claiborne stands out on the field as a playmaker. Peterson was an elite prospect with his size. They are similar except Peterson is bigger and is way better returner. If Morris can clock in a 4.38< 40, he is worth a top 5 pick in my book. His tools and consistency this year project him as an elite CB in the NFL. We need corners that are playmakers, right now we got a bunch of solid corners, and a guy that has potential to be elite.
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Good points on Bradford, hadn't thought of it that way. As you can see from my sig, I'm all about us getting Blackmon, though I fear we'd have to trade up to get him, too.
Would he possibly be there at #3?
It's still possible that the order goes.
1. Indy (Jax)
2. Rams (SF)
3. Browns (Putzburgh)
4. Vikings (Chicago)
5. Jax (Indy)
Yeah, I think that the Vikings could very well beat Chicago.
Something about that LSU crew and the way they are turning out NFL ready corners. I look at those guys man for man and they have arguably the best secondary in football. They go 5 or 6 deep and everyone has great speed, technically sound, willing and proficient tacklers and most importantly is the fact these guys can cover.
Claiborne is better than Peterson as a pure corner but Peterson has the return ability.
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If you dont get your tackle then you draft one. Just like every other position you wish to fill.
This is a position that we haven't really attempted to fill, and it's the downfall of our O-Line year in and year out. It's been great having Joe Thomas and Eric Steinbach, but for the past couple years, we either have to have
A) A blocking TE chipping on the right side on most every single play (letting the defense put another guy in the box)
or
B) Our QB watching the right side of the O-Line collapse on every play.
Yet every season people say the same thing, there's some guy in FA. Yet there never is, not one willing to go to the Browns who is any good.
You suggested that if we don't get a good RT in FA, we can draft a RT in round 4 (or later). It's a ridiculous one to me. I'd love to get Andre Smith (and him to check out on a physical, because he has injury concerns that make me nervous), but I'm not holding my breath. And when we don't get him or someone of his caliber (because there won't be many), round 4 is just not a good alternative.
I just don't see how you put RT so far down your "needs" list. People talk about how we should address it, and then it always seems like it ends up getting pushed off. RT is very high on my list (as you can tell). Possibly the number 1 most important thing we have to deal with, doesn't have to be a superstar, but does have to be someone good
It really frustrates me, sorry if my post before seemed ridiculous to you; it just drives me nuts
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It really frustrates me, sorry if my post before seemed ridiculous to you; it just drives me nuts
And it drives MEEEEEE nuts when people say "Noone wants to come to Cleveland"...
BS...Show em' the damn money and they will be on the first plane landing at Hopkins...It's always this way...Always has been and always will be...MONEY TALKS...
4/5ths of this OL has 4 years or less experience...We've got a solid foundation going...Yeah we need to replace Pashos...And we will...Just a matter of how...And I'd bet it comes from the draft...One thing Heckert totally understands is u constantly hit the TRENCHES...Thank Reid for that...
My biggest concern with Heckert being around Reid so long is him going Corner crazy...
Mour...U r right on with LSU and the Corners down there...It's Corner Heaven...It's sick to see Claiborne and Mathieu next to each other...That right there is the greatest Corner duo EVER...And both will be perenial Pro Bowlers...
If we do not make the move for Luck...Claiborne HAS to be the pick...
What if Blackmon and Kalil are still there at our pick? (RE: Claiborne)
I expect them to be gone and I will be very happy with Claiborne.
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What if Blackmon and Kalil are still there at our pick? (RE: Claiborne)
I expect them to be gone and I will be very happy with Claiborne.
Luck
Luck
Luck
Blackmon
Claiborne
I would be shocked if Blackmon is selected before the Browns' pick.
If the Cleveland Browns lose to the Pittsburgh Steelers in the regular-season finale, they are assured of a draft spot no worse than No. 4. Cleveland would move to No.3 if the Browns lost and the Minnesota Vikings beat the visiting Chicago Bears next Sunday.
If the Browns upset the Steelers, they would likely fall out of the top 5.
Here's the projected draft order, courtesy of ESPN Stats & Information:
1. Colts (2-13)
2. Rams (2-13)
3. Vikings (3-12)
4. Browns (4-11)
5. Jaguars (4-11)
6. Buccaneers (4-11)
7. Redskins (5-10)
8. Dolphins (5-10)
9. Panthers (6-9)
10. Bills (6-9)
11. Chiefs (6-9)
web page
There are cases to be made for a lot of these guys, mainly because of the holes we have. Here's my case for Kalil: OTs have long careers. Get him, and we have OL bookends for the next decade plus. We'd be able to run with any RB and throw with almost any QB. A dominant line would be amazing.
Claiborn: No one would be able to go deep on us with him and Haden. Coverage sacks would skyrocket. Two shutdown corners. Wow.
Blackmon: If he was a Megatron type, I could see it. But he's six feet. I'd rather wait on WR.
Griffin: I have to see what H&H think of him. I'm skeptical. I feel like it's Luck or develop a Tannehill type. And I just don't know that Indy will even put Luck in play.
I'm leaning toward Kalil or Claiborn. Or trade down.
if we end up with the 3rd pick, and indy is 2, I would do anything it took to get Luck with the first pick.
If the Browns like RG3 ...... and this is only an "If" ..... I wonder if the Rams would trade down from 2 to 4 for the #4 pick, a 2nd, and a 4th? I would have to think that would be a very tempting package to just drop 2 spots. (especially since, I would assume, that they feel they need a lot of help around the QB they already have)
Let's say your projected draft order is correct:
1. Colts (2-13)
2. Rams (2-13)
3. Vikings (3-12)
4. Browns (4-11)
5. Jaguars (4-11)
6. Buccaneers (4-11)
7. Redskins (5-10)
8. Dolphins (5-10)
9. Panthers (6-9)
10. Bills (6-9)
11. Chiefs (6-9)
If RG3 is a hot commodity when our pick comes around how far would anyone be willing to trade down. The Redskins, Dolphins, Bills and Chiefs could be interested. Let's say one of them offers us their #1 in next year's draft. How far down would people be willing to drop to get it? (Obviously if you say 11 the Chiefs that presumes that none of the teams above them offer equivalent value) Or do you just take RG3?
what if we traded back to 8-10 and take either Alshon Jeffrey or Michael Floyd...thatd give us our 6'3 fantastic wideout.
Both had numbers suffer slightly because of poor poor QB play...none more than Jeffrey and i think we'll see their stock re-rise during the combine.
I'd love to see us grab Jeffrey (preferably) or Floyd, and then grab Jarius Wright or Marquis Maze later in the draft to fill our slot...preferably Wright cuz he is faaaaaaaast
Looking...
The Dolphins, Chefs, Cards, Seahawks, and Jags could all look for a QB. Someone that would be willing to move up and go get an RG3 or Landry Jones if someone like the Rams went rogue and tried to take one...
What are the chances the Colts think Orlovsky is good enough? He's played damn well.
http://drafttek.com/CMDRound1.aspLet me post what Drafttek.com is saying about Landry..
A shake-up in our Quarterback rankings has Landry Jones tumbling out of Round 1. Once Ryan Broyles went down to injury Jones hasn't been the same. His last 2 games (Iowa State, Oklahoma State) have produced no TD passes, and the worst QB ratings since his freshman year. Brandon Weeden and Robert Griffin have jumped ahead. Our staff is divided on RG3. We do think he'll be drafted in Round 1, but the past 20 years is full of smallish, athletic Heisman QB's who have underwhelmed at the NFL level. Andre Ware, Troy Smith, Charlie Ward and Jason White - to name names.
If I'm the Browns, I take RG3 and never look back.
If I'm wrong, then I have blown a single 1st round pick. If I'm right, then I have the most important position on the football field handled for the next 12-15 years.
It's more than worth the risk.
I agree. I didn't watch much Baylor football this past year. I only caught the whole game against Oklahoma (good one to catch I suppose). With how he played there, I would want him. However, I don't know enough about his stinker games or general knowledge about his mechanics, accuracy, arm strength, speed, height and injury history. I'm sure all that will be discussed at length over the next 3+ months, so I'll thank you all in advance for providing.
Picking RG3 versus Luck isn't a comparison we can make because we don't own the #1 overall pick. It would cost us some crazy amount to get to the #1 position and like I clearly discussed much earlier in this thread, there's no freaking way Indy passes on Luck no matter what the offer is. So yes, using ONE pick on RG3 is so much better than using 3 first and 2 second rounders. If he doesn't pan out, we still get to pick 5 more times in the first four rounds this draft (as well as the picks next year).
It seems like this draft is going to force us into what we really need.....infuse our team with a good amount of young top-of-the-draft talent and hope we hit on a few (or all, of course). We need playmakers.....in more than just the QB position. I don't want to trade up at all. In fact, I'd trade down if I could (to get more bodies and like Peen said, maybe more ammunition for next years draft to get Barkley*).
*Why would I want to trade up next year and not this year? Because this team isn't ready to mortgage lots of picks for one player, no matter how important the position is. Next year we'll hopefully have a better right side of the o-line, another DE, a true MLB, more youth in the secondary and some skill guys on offense for a QB to get the ball to).
Y, you posted a column today by Terry Pluto saying that the AFC North requires a QB of a certain size and arm strength to play in bad weather, and to compete with the likes of Roethlisberger, Flacco, and Dalton. Now you want us to take a smallish QB from a spread offense in a conference that doesn't play defense? Was the Pluto column what you think, or just posted to spur discussion?
That was just to spur conversation.
I think that RG3 has the necessary arm strength to make every throw in Cleveland in winter.
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I would be shocked if Blackmon is selected before the Browns' pick.
Rams badly need a WR.
From what I have seen, the Rams could desperately use everything except a QB and RB.
They did wind up with 3 receivers on IR, so I don't know how WR slots into their needs.
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If I'm the Browns, I take RG3 and never look back.
If I'm wrong, then I have blown a single 1st round pick. If I'm right, then I have the most important position on the football field handled for the next 12-15 years.
It's more than worth the risk.
Man I just don't like this...And I'm prayin' Holmgren and Heckert know what the heck they're doin' if they take this kid...
You're lookin' at buckin' a trend with this kid...Wide open offenses operating outta the gun produce Heisman Winners...But NOT NFL success stories...There's ALOT that have gone this route and failed...Ware and Troy Smith...Ward and Jason White...
I just don't like having to adjust a QB's mechanics and footwork right from the get-go...Then comes the pre-post-snap reads...Different ballgame doing it in your drop versus standing there in the gun...
Just for giggles tho...Here ya' go...Walter Football Mock...
Luck
Kalil
Minnesota Vikings: Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU
Trades in the top three were very improbable in the old CBA. That's not the case anymore. I believe the Vikings will trade this selection to a team desperate to land Robert Griffin. That could be the Browns, who can deal both of their first-rounders (a fair deal via the trade value chart). It could also be the Redskins, who can send their 2012 and 2013 first-round selections to the Vikings. Either way, Minnesota is in great shape.
If the Vikings are crazy enough to hold on to this pick, it'll come down between Morris Claiborne and Justin Blackmon. I'm giving the former the slight edge for two reasons: First, he's the better prospect. And second, Minnesota is so incredibly desperate for cornerback help. Antoine Winfield, who has missed at least six games in three of the previous five years, turns 35 in June. The disappointing Chris Cook has legal issues. And Cedric Griffin hasn't been the same since his double ACL tears.
Blackmon also makes sense if the Vikings are confident that Winfield can give them another strong two years and Cook can stay out of trouble, but Claiborne is the favorite right now.
Pick change; previously Matt Kalil, OT
Blackmon
Cleveland Browns: Robert Griffin, QB, Baylor
If Robert Griffin somehow falls to No. 5, this will be a no-brainer. Colt McCoy is a lost cause, so the Brows will select Griffin as their new franchise quarterback. Is Griffin the prototypical West Coast quarterback? No, but neither was Donovan McNabb, and Andy Reid, Mike Holmgren's pupil, selected him back in 1999.
Like McNabb, Griffin is just too talented to pass up. He's also really smart and should be able to master Holmgren's offense pretty quickly.
Having said all of that, the Browns will probably have to move up to No. 3 to grab Griffin. Luckily, they have two first-round picks, so they're currently the favorite to do so. Daniel Snyder will be their main competition.
Pick change; previously Matt Barkley, QB
Then comes the Atlanta pick of which we won't have if we have to go to 3 to get Griffin...
Cleveland Browns: Kendall Wright, WR/KR, Baylor
When teams draft a quarterback early, they typically like to complement their new signal-caller with some protection or a play-maker. Think Matthew Stafford-Brandon Pettigrew, Sam Bradford-Rodger Saffold, Christian Ponder-Kyle Rudolph, and so on.
The top available offensive talent on the board is Kendall Wright. He would serve as a much-needed deep threat in Cleveland's stagnant offense, with Greg Little moving over as a No. 2 wideout, which is the role he should play.
I can't see this regime spending a high pick on receiver unless he is AJ Green/Megatron type skill set. So Blackmon fans, it doesn't look good.
I also dont believe we will have a high first round grade on Griffin. Heckert just has his own way of thinking and it usually doesnt involve hype.
Claiborne wouldnt be the greatest need but he would be the best player but again, trading up or trading down seems much more likely.
The value chart isn't Golden but teams rarely tread to far from it. In order for us to not be completely fleeced trading up, we need that 3rd overall pick in order to accomplish it. At #3, two firsts and our fourth is slightly overpaying. Probably take a little more but not much more. Blackmon would be a really good replacement for Reggie Wayne
Trading down with tackle needy teams chomping at the bit again only works if the Vikings win and we lose. Get that 3rd overall pick and dangle Kalil like a piece of liver in a catfish pond. Cards, Bills, Chiefs, Vikings, Rams are all in DIRE need of a starting LT. Let the bidding begin.
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I think that RG3 has the necessary arm strength to make every throw in Cleveland in winter.
How can you say that with a straight face?
Is Blackmon good enough to overcome NOT being taller?
I think that most shorter #1 types - like Steve Smith - are fast and shifty enough to overcome their height. Blackmon seems a lot like Boldin...and I think we have our slightly-better "Boldin" in our own G Little.
If Kalil is there when we pick...I just might take him. He will want to be paid like a LT, but WILL get paid according to his slot. I probably would not pick him...but I would think long and hard about it.
Could you imagine him and JT as bookends? Anyway...
I think we take Claiborne at 1A. He's likely the BPA and plays a position of need for us.
I'm not sure what we take at 1B but I'd bet it's a WR. I am liking Cunningham from Michigan State here.
I think we "overdraft" a guy like Adcock at 2...and I am ok with that.
Heckert must continue to earn his money at #3 and with our two 4ths. No head scratchers like Marecic and Cameron.
At 5-7 I am looking for DL & OL depth and/or speed at LB.
Unrelated:
Could Skrine play FS?
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Is Blackmon good enough to overcome NOT being taller?
I think that most shorter #1 types - like Steve Smith - are fast and shifty enough to overcome their height.
Blackmon is plenty tall enough.
He will measure around 6'1 at the combine.
Steve Smith is 5'9.
I think we might go QB w/ that first pick.. if we go Blackmon.. that means Colt gets another year.
Landry Jones IMO is not worthy of a first round pick and I think he will be a bust in the league.
I like Tannehill and Foles, but wouldn't touch them until the 3rd round.. even then though.. not sure if they are starters..
Not forgetting the FA market and Flynn.
We should get a good dose of him next Sunday when the Pack plays the Lions. The Pack has nothing to play for at this point, and Rodgers has said he thinks Flynn should play. Luckily for Browns fans who are interested they moved the Browns game to late Sunday so we should be able to see both games. Flynn against the Lions D should be a decent barometer.
The only QB I'd want in 1st round is Luck. Assuming that won't happen, and assuming we retain Hillis, with 1a, I'd go either DE (Coples) or CB (Claiborne). If we lose Hillis, I take Richardson. With 1b, I'd be looking for my WR - Alshon Jeffreys, Michael Floyd, or Kendall Wright. With our 2nd rd, best OT or LB. With our 3rd, best LB or OT. After that, I'd hand off to Heckert, because I have no clue.
Hillis is the key, imo. If he stays, we go DE or CB with 1a, and fill the other from FA. If Hillis goes, we take Richardson @ 1a, and look to free agency for DE and CB.
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I think that RG3 has the necessary arm strength to make every throw in Cleveland in winter.
How can you say that with a straight face?
Because, based on what I have seen and read, it's the truth.
RG3 also might be the smartest kid in this draft. He also might be the most athletic. A plus arm (not elite, but plus) added to intelligence and athleticism, then stirred in with very solid accuracy, and you get a kid I feel will be a great NFL QB.
I would take that chance every day of the week. I would take the QB with the highest upside every stinkin' year until I find my QB. The position is that important.
It's important enough for you to take "high potential" QB's, that frankly aren't ready for the NFL every year.
But, you wouldn't trade two 1's and a 2 for the most "best QB prospect since John Elway"?
He is big enough but Holmgren's philosophy has always been and will continue to be never take a receiver in the first unless it is the last piece of the puzzle. Now there are exceptions with the superstar rare player like Andre Johnson, Green and Megatron.
As much as I want Blackmon, I'd be surprised if we pick him. Frankly, I won't be surprised if he's gone before we pick, especially if Jacksonville picks before us.
And I wouldn't necessarily blame the FO for not taking him, so long as who we do take is a playmaker.
If we lose to Pittsburgh, there is no way Jacksonville can pick ahead of us.
If we lose, we are guaranteed at least the #4 pick.
*Edit* Err, maybe not. I read an article that said that, but looking at the order as of now, I don't see how that's true...
Ok, I kind of thought that, but my brain is in shutdown mode after all the sugar I've eaten in the past couple days. Thanks.
So if we lose to Pitt, ahead of us are the Colts, Vikings and Rams. In that case, I think Blackmon just might be there for us. However, if someone out there is desperate for RGIII or someone like Blackmon and is willing to give us a great trade, I take it (unless the FO is totally sold on RGIII).
If Jacksonville loses, I would assume the order would be ..
1. St. Louis
2. Minnesota (if they lose)
3. Indy (plays Jacksonville)
4. Jacksonville
5. Cleveland
But according to ESPN, we're guaranteed the 4th pick if we lose.
I'm confused lol.
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If we lose to Pittsburgh, there is no way Jacksonville can pick ahead of us.
If we lose, we are guaranteed at least the #4 pick.
*Edit* Err, maybe not. I read an article that said that, but looking at the order as of now, I don't see how that's true...
Is Jax SOS going to change that much in a week???
I think ESPN is wrong...Ours will go UP with Pitt...Jax's goes DOWN with Indy...
We get 5...
I'm assuming that TB can't jump ahead of us (thereby moving us down to 5 or 6)?
The Browns cannot pick lower than No. 4 if they lose. If Minnesota defeats Chicago, and the Browns lose, Cleveland will pick No. 3.
I'm just gonna throw in a few general thoughts here...
As it stands, RG3 has a decent arm. It's not his best attribute, but he can throw downfield. At the moment, RG3 barely even uses his lower body, either. Once he is coached up and he uses his lower body more, he might end up with a rocket. He also throws a tight spiral and has a fantastic deep ball, so I'm not worried about the wind at all.
Justin Blackmon will be there when the Browns pick. St. Louis is probably going to pick second, and Matt Kalil will be the BPA. It just so happens that the Rams desperately need help along the offensive line.
The Vikings have needs at cornerback and wideout, but Claiborne is much better than Blackmon.
But when/if Blackmon falls to the Browns, I will not want him. All elite wide receivers have a few traits in common. They are either:
1. Big. At least 6'3" with hands and athletic ability.
2. Incredibly quick. Steve Smith is only 5'9", but he is shifty and fast as hell.
Justin Blackmon is neither of those. He's 6'1" 215, so he has some bulk, but he doesn't have the height/speed combination to be much of a deep threat. He has occasionally great hands (has some issues with drops on the perimeter) and is an excellent route runner. He has good YAC ability and can make a few guys miss. In essence, he is Anquan Boldin.
The Browns already have an underneath, WCO weapon in Greg Little. Little isn't really a deep threat, but he's starting to catch the ball like he did in college, and he is incredible with the ball in his hands. Right now, the Browns need speed and vertical ability. Blackmon provides neither of those, and he lacks the physical ability to develop into an elite player.
Right now, my draft board is as follow:
1. Andrew Luck
2. Robert Griffin III
3. Morris Claiborne
4. Trent Richardson
5. Matt Kalil
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It's important enough for you to take "high potential" QB's, that frankly aren't ready for the NFL every year.
But, you wouldn't trade two 1's and a 2 for the most "best QB prospect since John Elway"?
Who are you referring to?
Luck?
I would trade 3 first rounders for him if I thought I could do so.
Oh okay. Sorry, I thought you were in the "Don't trade up for Luck" group.
I wouldn't draft RGIII in the first round at all...
We've discussed this already, and I understand where you are coming from. I just disagree.
RG3 is raw, but, as weird as this may sound, fairly NFL ready. It has been proven time and time again that athleticism is key in determining a rookie QB's success. RG3 is already accurate, and he is smart as a whip. His arm is decent with the potential to be great, and his footwork needs improvement.
Right now, my biggest concern about Griffin is far and away his size. If he measures in at 6'2", my concerns regarding his height evaporate. He is still thin, though, and his durability is a bit of a question mark. But if he weighs in at 6'2", 220 pounds, I have no worries about him there.
Nope. If I could get Luck, I would do so.
I would also grab RG3 if Luck is not available. He's a risk, but we desperately need a great QB, and he could be a great one. He has bust potential ..... but he could also wind up being even better than Luck. If I cannot get Luck, I take RG3 and never look back. (especially if I can get him without moving up in the draft)
Worst case scenario for us, IMO is ending up with pick #4 and the top 3 picks being ..
1. Luck
2. Kalil
3. Claiborne
If that happened, I'd desperately try to trade down for someone who wants RGIII
How far do you think Landry Jones falls?
Draft related, I wanna post this snippet from PFT. It helps express why myself and others are perfectly content to lose going down the stretch... Quote:
Lions’ 0-16 season may all be worth it
Posted by Michael David Smith on December 26, 2011, 11:38 AM EST
Getty ImagesThree years after the Lions experienced the only 0-16 season in NFL history, they’re in the playoffs. And looking back at it, maybe that winless season was just what the franchise needed.
Dave Birkett of the Detroit Free Press has a rundown of the ways that terrible year laid the foundation for the Lions’ 2011 success, including:
1. The terrible start to that season was what finally convinced Lions owner William Clay Ford to fire team President Matt Millen and replace him with G.M. Martin Mayhew.
2. At the end of the 0-16 season the Lions fired head coach Rod Marinelli and replaced him with Jim Schwartz.
3. The Lions used the first overall pick in the 2009 NFL draft on quarterback Matthew Stafford. (Funny to remember now that a lot of people thought the safest pick for the Lions would have been linebacker Aaron Curry, whom the Seahawks selected fourth overall and who was traded to the Raiders for a seventh-round pick this season.)
So, in hindsight, the worst season in NFL history might have been what the Lions had to experience before they could turn things around. Just don’t expect Detroit fans to thank Millen any time soon.
And also, in a coincidence, it expresses why taking a QB when you don't have one is the right move.
(Keep in mind I'm not a "QB or bust" guy. My RG3 expressions revolved around why I'd take him over Barkley.)
I can see why some love RG3 and you know why I have my doubts. The funny thing is, RG3 is still my 4th ranked QB and he is better than every QB drafted last year not named Cam and the only advantage Cam really has is size. Last year's draft may produce more 1st round busts than the 2005 draft.
I just think this year's QB class is being undervalued. Luck, Griffin, Tannehill, Jones, Manuel and even Foles has the potential to be a great QB. I'll be glad to eat my words on this if I am wrong but all of these kids has something special about their game. Last year's group, I still have no idea what they were thinking.