Atlanta and Draft Order Part V

Sorry, I meant St. Louis.

I think we're getting to the point where the Colts will say they're willing to draft anyone in order to get a team to offer up the farm for the #1 spot (even the Rams or Vikings). The Colts would be better served moving down 2-5 spots and picking up a few extra picks and drafting talent to surround Manning for one last hurrah. They could get a developmental QB in round 2 or 3. Or they could just draft Luck and let him sit. But I think that's not the ideal scenario for them.

I dunno .....

I can't see the Colts passing on Luck unless he loses his right arm between now and the draft.

I would be perfectly content to "settle" for Luck.

lol I am really intrigued by RG3 though. I just have this feeling that he is going to be a really special NFL talent.

I will be ecstatic if we come out of this draft with Luck or RG3.

Quote:

Name me one WR that turned around a team.

That's a straw argument. I never said that a WR turned around a team. I never contended that any single player turned around a team.

Quote:

How about a RB in this decade that turned a team into a championship team?

I never stated this either. See above.

Quote:

Maybe an OL that took a team from also ran to consistent division champions?

Well, let's see. San Fran is 13-3 in the second year after using two first round picks on OL. Alex Smith, after doing next to nothing for 5 years now has the fewest ints of any starting QB. True, he doesn't have 40+ TDs, but he doesn't need them. He had 17 TDs and 5 int.

Quote:

A great QB turns teams around. Look at what Dalton and Newton did this year as rookies. (and I wouldn't even call Dalton "great)

Newton's team still isn't playoff bound. It'll take more than him. The Bengals had additional weapons surrounding Dalton.

Quote:

I am sick to death of coming in last. We need to finally get the most important position on the field right, then we can fill holes.

So, you're calling for Shurmur's firing too?

I am calling for this team to finally try to properly address the QB position with an elite talent.

Quote:

No, I expected McCoy, in his 2nd year, to show progress from last year.

Great. In the first year of a new system? A second year QB in his second system and you expected miracles? Without the same production (it wasn't even close) from the running game as he had last year and with a receiving corps that couldn't hold onto the ball and a receiver that was cut from the team due to ineptness?

Quote:

I expected him to show improvement over last year.

I expected that from Shurmur. The Browns were 5-11 last year and the team went 4-12 this year. That's not improvement.

Quote:

I expected him to lead the offense to improvement.

With what he had as weapons? You might have well as expected to have won the lottery.

Quote:

Our offense collapsed his year. We scored 87 points in McCoy's final 8 games. That is horrifically bad.

The play-calling was atrocious all season long.

Quote:

I am calling for this team to finally try to properly address the QB position with an elite talent.

And that's why nobody should care what you call for. Elite QB? LOL How many elite QBs are there?

Quote:

Why would Cincinnati do that?

Maybe they want Justin Blackmon to throw the ball too along with AJ Green.

Both Dalton and Newton improved their respective teams, as rookies, with no off-season ... and with teams that both had worse records than we did last year.

We had a far, far better defense than newton had. We gave up fewer pints than Cincinnati did defensively.

There are a ton of excuses, but the bottom line is that McCoy declined this year. There are a lot of things that he did poorly that have nothing to do with the coaches or other players. Newton and Dalton led their teams. McCoy played leader, but really did nothing to encourage others to follow.

His final 8 games results in a total of 87 points scored. That is horrific. If he was a rookie, then maybe you might be able to make a case ... but he isn't. He is a 2nd year player who got half a season under his belt last year. Yeah we changed offenses, but guess what .... so did Dalton and Newton. No one is making excuses for them, because they delivered.

Certainly McCoy struggled this year but I believe with a young, touted prospect you really must wait and see if he struggles with good, quality talent around him before you make a harsh decision.

Too early to jettison him this seaon. I'm beginning to see Richardson as a back that's worth an early pick. Get best WR at 25, FA or drafted right tackle
and see if he picks his game up.

Quote:

Certainly McCoy struggled this year but I believe with a young, touted prospect you really must wait and see if he struggles with good, quality talent around him before you make a harsh decision.

Too early to jettison him this seaon. I'm beginning to see Richardson as a back that's worth an early pick. Get best WR at 25, FA or drafted right tackle
and see if he picks his game up.

If we don't trade down then this is probably the route I would go.

I really want to keep Colt.. but he cannot make all the throws you need to make in the NFL.. especially outside the numbers..

His out route throws are not that good. Not sure if he waits too late, or if he just cant throw the ball on a line to make the pass.. or Maybe we shouldn't be running 2 yard outs in the first place.. lol..

RG3 or keep Colt..

Quote:

Quote:

I am calling for this team to finally try to properly address the QB position with an elite talent.

And that's why nobody should care what you call for. Elite QB? LOL How many elite QBs are there?

WOW...This is gonna be good the next 4 months...

Y...Rephrase that cause the "Drama Quenn's" takin' it to the bank...

Elite chief is as good as QUALITY...

How many???...WOW...

Brady---Perennial Playoffs
Rothburger---Perennial Playoffs
Manning---Perennial Playoffs---Goes down and Indy falls apart...And have had YEARS to "Build"...
Rivers---Why is Turner still there...
Eli---In it every year
Rogers---Whatever
Stafford---Finally have a D worth even lookin' at
Brees---Nah
Ryan---Nah

Let's keep stickin' with the Likes of a Grossman and "Build" around em'...That'll get us 8-8 YTown...I'm happy with that...

U STILL don't and apparently NEVER will get it...This is not about going after ANY QB...If Luck wasn't in this draft it wouldn't even be spoken about...But the huge difference is that there IS ONE available...And when there is U GO FOR IT...

Don't want to get into the middle of this, but Marshall Faulk did the turnaround for the rams. Yes Kurt Warner was the QB and came out of nowhere, but watching the NFL program America's Team, and other stuff, the players all say it wouldn't have been possible without Faulk. St Louis had TONS of talent and playmakers in place for Kurt to succeed, I don't think he elevated their game as much as they did his. He went on to become a GREAT qb, but wouldn't have gotten to where he was without those WR's and especially Faulk. Just my humble opinion.

Quote:

Quote:

I am calling for this team to finally try to properly address the QB position with an elite talent.

And that's why nobody should care what you call for. Elite QB? LOL How many elite QBs are there?

Wait, THAT'S your argument?

Why, exactly, should we settle for mediocre QB talent? Oh, and the San Francisco argument is weak at best. The reason they went 13-3 is Frank Gore and the best defense in the NFL. And the NFC West is friggin terrible.

JK
One thing to remember for all the trade 3 1st rounders for Luck people.
The Panthers got their QB and won a few more games this year AND have the 8th pick in this draft because they didnt have to give up anything for him.

If we trade all those picks we will again finish up picking in the top 10 and lose that vital pick next year. If we stand pat same story but we have probably 3 more excellent players (the 2 1st and 2nd round pick) plus our whole draft next year to continue building.

If a QB they like falls to them great snatch him up hopefully get some more talent around him and continue that next year. Finally we would have to be assured that Luck would sign with us he could just pull a Manning say Im not playing in Cleveland.2nd year head coach no RB no WR and no chance to get any playmakers next year. Toughest division in FB. I'd pass on that prospect too.

Next year we play NFC East Afc west plus Buffalo and Indy and our division. How many games do you really think we can win? I say 4-7 = Top 10 pick
Just seems like way to much to give up for my tastes.

Quote:

If we trade all those picks we will again finish up picking in the top 10 and lose that vital pick next year. If we stand pat same story but we have probably 3 more excellent players (the 2 1st and 2nd round pick) plus our whole draft next year to continue building.

Cool...Let's do that...And we go with McCoy again...

And next year we still need a QB...Cool...Let's do that too...

Then when this team is so "Built"...Let's be continuously talking about needing a QB because we can't get over the 8-8/9-7 hump...Cool...Let's do that too...

QB's don't grow on trees...Brady has blown every single one of your BRAINS...It don't work like that on a CONSISTENT basis...

We have an opportunity...And when u have that opportunity U TAKE IT if u can...Or u suffer in the lapse of mediocrity...

Holmgren...Heckert...Do EVERYTHING U CAN to secure the likes of Luck...Or Griffin IF u believe these guys r FRANCHISE QUALITY QB'S...It's the right thing to do...And the SMART thing to do...

Quote:

Quote:

If we trade all those picks we will again finish up picking in the top 10 and lose that vital pick next year. If we stand pat same story but we have probably 3 more excellent players (the 2 1st and 2nd round pick) plus our whole draft next year to continue building.

Cool...Let's do that...And we go with McCoy again...

And next year we still need a QB...Cool...Let's do that too...

Then when this team is so "Built"...Let's be continuously talking about needing a QB because we can't get over the 8-8/9-7 hump...Cool...Let's do that too...

QB's don't grow on trees...Brady Quinn has blown every single one of your BRAINS...It don't work like that on a CONSISTENT basis...

We have an opportunity...And when u have that opportunity U TAKE IT if u can...Or u suffer in the lapse of mediocrity...

Holmgren...Heckert...Do EVERYTHING U CAN to secure the likes of Luck...Or Griffin IF u believe these guys r FRANCHISE QUALITY QB'S...It's the right thing to do...And the SMART thing to do...

You are in favor of drafting RGIII, one of the riskiest players in the draft, but you are not in favor of trading for Luck, who is one of the safest players in the draft AND one of the best QB prospects of all time?

That makes sense.

Quote:

You are in favor of drafting RGIII, one of the riskiest players in the draft, but you are not in favor of trading for Luck, who is one of the safest players in the draft AND one of the best QB prospects of all time?

That makes sense.

RG3= Troy Smith and Akili Smith rolled into 1. Or Braxton Miller in two years.

He's a rich man's Dan LeFevour.

Quote:

He's a rich man's Dan LeFevour.

Yes..which some of our expert draft gurus had held very highly much the same.

But Dan LeFevour was a STUD at CMU! I mean he dominated! He was mobile...which we need behind our crappy OLine!

And the cout de grace....he is so EXCITING! (If I had a dollar for every time I heard that about RG3...as if nobody cares whether we actually win or not as long as we're "exciting" to watch

)

Quote:

You are in favor of drafting RGIII, one of the riskiest players in the draft, but you are not in favor of trading for Luck, who is one of the safest players in the draft AND one of the best QB prospects of all time?

That makes sense.

that's the thing.. no QB is a safe pick... NOT ONE!!! stop saying that.

Peyton Manning and John Elway were safe picks. These are the type of players that are being compared to Luck.

I think that there are 2 elite level QBs in this draft.

We pick 4th.

We have an extra 1st rounder if needed to move up.

We should, and I would say must come out of this draft with either Luck or RG3. If not we will go through another year of futility, and last minute "miraculous" drives to add a score to a long lost game.

If we get to 6-10, 7-9, 8-8 .... we won't pick this high again. We have an opportunity to pick a potentially elite guy right now. It's time to make that move and hopefully settle the most important position on the field for the next decade or so.

You and I don't agree on much. But I agree with this. I don't want RGIII (I don't think he will be there when we pick anyway). But if we have a chance to get Luck we have to do it.

Quote:

that's the thing.. no QB is a safe pick... NOT ONE!!! stop saying that.

To a certain extent you're right, but that can be said about ANY position. Not just QB. But, as much as it sucks, we still need a QB. Sooo...if you need a QB, but no QB is a safe pick (as you said) then at some point you just HAVE to suck it up and take a chance with a non-safe bet.

The question is what chance? The most widely regarded prospect in over a decade. The sure-fire consensus #1 player in EVERY ranking/publication known to man (this is not normal). The guy most NFL ready (due to his college system and coaches) of any QB coming out. In a draft where we actually have the draft position (#4) and an extra #1 pick to make a move like this if we want (also very rare).

Yet you'd rather go with a much BIGGER gamble in RG3 just b/c it will cost us a few extra draft picks??? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

To me it just comes down to whether Indy will deal AT ALL or not.

I'd swap firsts with them, give them our second 1st.. and throw in a 3rd and 6th.. but please don't touch next year..

i dont want to revisit 2008 and be all hyped about a 4th round pick (beau bell)..

Oh I don't want to decimate next years draft either...but it's going to take SOMETHING next year IMO.

I'd start with our 2 1st's and a late rounder just like you, but I'd add our 1st next year and another late rounder next year if that's what it took. Something like
2012 : Rd 1 x 2 and Rd 3 or 4
2013 : Rd 1 and Rd 4.

That still gives us our 2nd rounder this year and either a 3rd or 4th to hopefully add 2 more starters...plus the $$ we have to spend in FA should get us 1-2 more. So we'd be adding Luck + 3-4 starters this year....and then we'd still have a 2nd and 3rd rounder next year to get a couple more players. If you have the right guy making the picks, you can get contributing starters in those rounds and we'd be just fine (in fact much better IMO) with Luck and these picks than without Luck and our 5 extra picks.

Now if Indy wants 3 (or more) years worth of #1 picks....man I have to think long and hard at 3....it's probably a definite no for anything more than that. And if they want all those #1 picks I'd retract all the mid round picks I was offering.

Again it all just comes down to if Indy will listen to ANY offer (they may not) and if so just what ransom they'll demand. We have the most to offer so we have a good shot but it has to not be crippling.

Regardless, Luck has to be our #1 priority and we have to burn those lines in an attempt to get it done. It may or may not play out...but we HAVE to try.

i'm to the point where i want one of only two players at 4: rgiii or luck. i might be ok with claiborne if they're gone and the browns don't get a good offer to move down. i don't think we need a more-polished Greg Little in our offense (Blackmon, Jeffrey, Floyd all kind of fit that oversized physical matchup profile... we need speed and shake) i think we need to re-sign hillis as our main RB. i might take kalil, but he's a need for all three teams picking ahead of us.

the sad thing to me, though, is that i don't feel confident that even if we get one of the two qbs that we'll be all that better off. after seeing flynn set records for the team of bart starr, bret favre, and aaron rodgers, i have to think it's the coaching/system that makes them superior. My first thought was "hey mYbe we should get flynn after all." But then i thought "well, when did he become that much better than wallace and mccoy? and why?"

if we continue to have bad coaching, playcalling, and gameplanning, we'll continue to lose. that being said, i'm completely against giving up more than either this year's third or next year's second to move up for anyone. as lomg asshurmur is running the show we're going to need all the players we can get.

Quote:

I'd swap firsts with them, give them our second 1st.. and throw in a 3rd and 6th.. but please don't touch next year..

i dont want to revisit 2008 and be all hyped about a 4th round pick (beau bell)..

OK "Drama Quenn II)...

Guarantee we visit this with Indy...Prolly to no avail...BUT...

The STARTING POINT will be our 2 First Rounders and our 2013 #1...U can bout BANK that...

Quote:

after seeing flynn set records for the team of bart starr, bret favre, and aaron rodgers, i have to think it's the coaching/system that makes them superior.

Here's the problem with the backup scenario:

What happens when a team like the Lions hears that Rodgers is going to have the day off?

They relax.

They figure that they can show up and win, because it's the backup.

They let down.

Add in that Detroit's defense isn't very good to start with, and you have a recipe for disaster ..... and disaster is what Detroit's defense got.

Nah...starting point will be swap of 1st and 4th overall + ATL pick + 2nd....that's exactly the gap in value between the 2 picks according to "the chart"...from there Colts will demand next year's 1st on top....and we will counter with next year's 2nd + our 4th this draft...we will give in and our max offer will be swap of 1st and 4th overall + ATL pick + 2nd + 4th THIS draft and next draft's 1st...net cost = 2x 1st + 2nd + 4th...including the ATL trade, the net cost = a 1st and 2nd

ok, that might explain the first two touchdowns, but they scored 45.

They also rested Greg Jennings and rb James Stark, t Brian Bulaga and wr Randall Cobb. So it wasn't Matt Flynn and the rest of the packers, other key players sat out as well. Still he hung 480 and 6tds on them.

For detroit, with the way their offense was going at it, it's really difficult to imagine their d was laying down.

We aint trading up for Luck. We aint Trading up for RG3 and he is going 1 or 2. I saved you a seat on the Tannehill wagon cause I think it will be Flynn or Tannehill on opening day next year.

Quote:

Nah...starting point will be swap of 1st and 4th overall + ATL pick + 2nd....that's exactly the gap in value between the 2 picks according to "the chart"...from there Colts will demand next year's 1st on top....and we will counter with next year's 2nd + our 4th this draft...we will give in and our max offer will be swap of 1st and 4th overall + ATL pick + 2nd + 4th THIS draft and next draft's 1st...net cost = 2x 1st + 2nd + 4th...including the ATL trade, the net cost = a 1st and 2nd

Sounds like a plan

Andrew Luck would be great. Just gotta find someone to play RT, sign Robert Meachem, and re-sign Hillis/another RB.

We might not be much better next year, but it's an investment in our future, and I feel pretty good about that

That would give me a reason to get a new brown Browns jersey that says "Luck" on the back. Then I can change up depending on home/away games with my Haden jersey (or possibly whether we're on offense or defense!)

Don't touch next year because you can't get hyped about not having a 1st round pick is a horrible reason for not trading up.

Quote:

Don't touch next year because you can't get hyped about not having a 1st round pick is a horrible reason for not trading up.

its more of.. dont touch next year b/c we can't afford to.

You don't think finding our QB for the next ten years is worth not having a 1st round pick?

I agree with Turk. I don't want to give up a lot of draft picks this year to get a guy like Luck, then give up picks for next year and not be able to get him some playmakers.

Now, like I said before, if we get some playmakers this year in FA, then maybe that makes things "easier."

But I'd hate to get Luck, then not be able to give him some tools other than what we've already got.

Quote:

You don't think finding our QB for the next ten years is worth not having a 1st round pick?

Brady Quinn?

I just want to remind everyone that not two years have passed since the last best prospect since Manning came out and he sucks. I'm not saying you shouldn't draft a QB, but I'm not for giving away multiple 1s for a guy.

Brady Quinn and Sam Bradford are not Andrew Luck.

If you get Luck, and he's as good as Manning, you won't need draft picks, considering he makes practice squad players look like pro bowlers.

*There was a hint of sarcasm in that post, but also some truth.

Quote:

I agree with Turk. I don't want to give up a lot of draft picks this year to get a guy like Luck, then give up picks for next year and not be able to get him some playmakers.

Now, like I said before, if we get some playmakers this year in FA, then maybe that makes things "easier."

But I'd hate to get Luck, then not be able to give him some tools other than what we've already got.

OMG...OMG...OMG...

U guys act like we will never have another draft pick and be locked outta FA forever if we go get Luck...

Cheese & Rice...

I need a BREAK...

okay.. so people BASHED Savage to death for trading away the picks and trying to build through free agency...

Now we get someone who seems to want to build through the draft.. and now we want to get rid of all our picks..

what do u want to do?

Wow, I agree. I think you do need a break.

Will be trading ALL of our picks? Has Heckert gotten us starting caliber players already in the draft? Isn't taking Luck considered a draft pick?

Quote:

Will be trading ALL of our picks? Has Heckert gotten us starting caliber players already in the draft? Isn't taking Luck considered a draft pick?

the picks that matter, that can get u starters will be GONE this year and most of next if we trade up for Luck.

And Luck is ONE guy. Could he help our team... probably.. but how much is the big question I have.

Quote:

And Luck is ONE guy. Could he help our team... probably.. but how much is the big question I have.

Add a healthy Peyton Manning to the 2011 Browns as they are currently assembled and we win 9 games. Maybe 10. We probably beat out Cinci for the final wild card spot.

So...yeah. That ONE guy matters a LOT when he's an elite QB.

And don't say "yeah but Luck isn't Manning...you just don't KNOW". If you're waiting until you "know"....it's too late and you aren't getting the guy b/c he's a pro bowler leading someone else's team to the playoffs.

Also, trying to compare Andrew Luck to Brady muscle man Quinn and Sam freaking Bradford is a travesty. Brady Quinn slid all the way to #22 and was likely to fall the 2nd round if not for that idiot Phil Savage. Bradford was a default #1 b/c there was no other good QB that season. I was never a fan of either guy. Luck, on the other hand, would have been the consensus #1 pick LAST year...WILL BE the #1 pick this year....and probably could have made a case to be the #1 pick TWO years ago.

Quote:

Also, trying to compare Andrew Luck to Brady muscle man Quinn and Sam freaking Bradford is a travesty.

I wasn't trying to compare Brady Quinn to Andrew luck as prospects. That reference was in regards to the comment about how trading a future 1 to get the qb position settled was not a significant loss. Quinn was supposed to be the most NFL-ready qb in the draft. It didn't work.

And comparing luck's hype to bradford's is not a travesty. Their hypes were similar. People were comparing bradford's potential to manning and elway. People were wanting holmgren to offer "the whole draft" to the rams for Bradford. Now people know we shouldn't even offer atlanta's 1 for him.

I'm not saying any one guy will bust. I'm saying don't pour multiple 1s into a single guy.

Quote:

I'm not saying any one guy will bust. I'm saying don't pour multiple 1s into a single guy.

I agree don't trade multiple 1s for any guy. But please for the love of God feel free to pour multiple 1s into THE guy.

A number one is also relative. IF we win 8 games next year ... theoretically of course ... then we would be looking at about the #16 overall.

Would you trade the #4, #27 (or whatever atlanta's is) and the #16 next year to get the number 1 and take luck? I do if I am sure I want to pin my career on him whether that be as a GM, a Coach, or a President.

The question is, how much do you trust your own evaluations?

What if we get hot next year and wind up winning 9 or 10 games and getting to the playoffs? the #4, and two picks in the mid 20's wouldn't be a bad deal in itself, let alone for the guy who could take us to the playoffs and win the division every year for a decade.

Bingo PStu.

Quote:

Wait, THAT'S your argument? Why, exactly, should we settle for mediocre QB talent?

We have sub-par coaching talent. We have sub-par WR talent. Our starting LBs are pathetic.

Quote:

Oh, and the San Francisco argument is weak at best. The reason they went 13-3 is Frank Gore and the best defense in the NFL. And the NFC West is friggin terrible.

The same tools were there last year and SF didn't win that 'terrible' NFC West then. And if they're so terrible, why were there two other teams with better records than the Browns? Sorry to tell you this, but the Browns didn't win a single division game!

If you think that all has to do with a QB, what's St. Louis' excuse for 2 wins? Minnesota (1st round Ponder)? Tampa Bay's 4 wins (1st round Freeman)? How about Jax and their 5 wins (1st round Gabbert)? Carolina's 6 wins (overall #1 Newton)? Oakland's 8 wins (1st rounder Carson Palmer)? San Diego (1st rounder Philip Rivers)? Denver (1st rounder Tim Tebow)? Jets (First rounder Sanchez), Eagles (overall #1 Vick), Cowboys (Romo the choke artist)?

All these very good QBs and only one of them is in the playoffs (Tebow).

Yeah, it all starts with the QB! Whatever. How many have coaches or front office personnel looking for jobs now or expected to lose their jobs? How many have rookie coaches?

Advocates for trading everything to get Luck or even those just advocating sitting and trying to get RG3 keep claiming that it's a passing league and that you need a top-flight QB for that purpose. They simply ignore the other aspect of the passing game, namely the receivers. They also ignore the running game, or lack thereof, for assisting in the passing attack. Then, connecting all those dots, you have poor coaching decisions, including the play selection and having the right personnel on the field.

I put this horrific season squarely on the offensive coaching staff and the front office. In respects to how the defense played, good and bad, I put that onto Jauron and his assistants.

Quote:

Quote:

You are in favor of drafting RGIII, one of the riskiest players in the draft, but you are not in favor of trading for Luck, who is one of the safest players in the draft AND one of the best QB prospects of all time?

That makes sense.

that's the thing.. no QB is a safe pick... NOT ONE!!! stop saying that.

Wasn't Sam Bradford one of the safest picks and one of the best QB prospects of all time? It's working out so well for St. Louis so far.

That's not to say that Bradford can't be a very good QB (and eventually even win a SB), but without any receiving threats and bad coaching, they'll be set in the same rut that we are in with the Browns.

Truth be told, we've had horrible coaching since the return in 1999.

1999-2000: Chris Palmer
2001-2004: Butch Davis (1 playoff appearance - done in by a QB controversy)
2004: Terry Robiskie (interim)
2005-2008: Romeo Crennel
2009-2010: Eric Mangini
2011-TBD: Pat Shurmur

I know that faced with opposing coaches such as these, I'd quiver in my boots!

Quote:

I think that there are 2 elite level QBs in this draft.

We pick 4th.

We have an extra 1st rounder if needed to move up.

We should, and I would say must come out of this draft with either Luck or RG3. If not we will go through another year of futility, and last minute "miraculous" drives to add a score to a long lost game.

If we get to 6-10, 7-9, 8-8 .... we won't pick this high again. We have an opportunity to pick a potentially elite guy right now. It's time to make that move and hopefully settle the most important position on the field for the next decade or so.

Or at least until the draft two years out?

So, if we draft Andrew Luck, we're going to win the Super Bowl next year? Make the playoffs next year? Go from 4-12 to 6-10?

Alright then! We should, without a doubt, mortgage the future of the franchise for him and let him languish in Cleveland, supported by poor talent and horrible coaching!

Quote:

To me it just comes down to whether Indy will deal AT ALL or not.

Or what the cost will be. If the cost is two #1s this year and next years #1 (which is already too much) and others are saying to add additional picks, at what point do you say that the cost it too great?

I wouldn't give up both of this year's two first round picks. To me, that's too much. I'd consider the 1st and 2nd this year and that's about it. I wouldn't give up two firsts (especially when one of them is #4 overall) for any single player. I don't care who they are.

Quote:

A number one is also relative. IF we win 8 games next year ... theoretically of course ... then we would be looking at about the #16 overall.

If... If... If...

If we mortgage the farm to get Luck, we'll be picking in the top 10 in 2012 (if not the top 5). Hopefully, we will have filled a big hole in the long run, but there will be too many holes left elsewhere to compete next year. Maybe 2013, but 2012 will be another rough one. Given the current state of our roster, you can just about bank on that.

I'm actually OK with that if the FO REALLY feels Luck is eventually going to be as good as advertised, but there will be a whole lot of whining on this board when we only have 4-6 wins again next year. ::shrug::

Quote:

Guarantee we visit this with Indy...Prolly to no avail...BUT...

The STARTING POINT will be our 2 First Rounders and our 2013 #1...U can bout BANK that...

If that's the price they ask, then you give them a 'Pffft!' in their faces and walk away giving them a one-fingered salute.

Quote:

Quote:

And Luck is ONE guy. Could he help our team... probably.. but how much is the big question I have.

Add a healthy Peyton Manning to the 2011 Browns as they are currently assembled and we win 9 games. Maybe 10. We probably beat out Cinci for the final wild card spot.

So...yeah. That ONE guy matters a LOT when he's an elite QB.

So, Andrew Luck is now Peyton Manning?

Let's give the kid 13 years in the NFL first. Coincidentally, Manning won 3 games his rookie season. Troy Aikman won a single game - and he had Michael Irving on that team!

j/c

Blackmon official . . .

Not that anyone is surprised . . .

MAN, I want that guy in Cleveland. BROWNMON???

Quote:

MAN, I want that guy in Cleveland. BROWNMON???

No kidding! His attitude is exactly hat this team needs.

Quote:

Our starting LBs are pathetic.

If the Pro Bowl wasn't a popularity contest Jackson would be in it. And Gocong also played pretty well down the stretch. I don't see where you get pathetic out of our linebacking core.

Quote:

Wasn't Sam Bradford one of the safest picks and one of the best QB prospects of all time? It's working out so well for St. Louis so far.

Bradford had one of the best rookie seasons every last year. And this year he had no receivers and no blocking and ended up injured.

Quote:

If the Pro Bowl wasn't a popularity contest Jackson would be in it. And Gocong also played pretty well down the stretch. I don't see where you get pathetic out of our linebacking core.

I agree. We are one OLB away from having a solid LB corps.. Not really confident w/ Gocong against the pass.. but ur LB's will never be good at doing both. I'd prefer he be a better run defender than pass anyday.

Unless it's in the Super Bowl against the Packers.. lol.

Quote:

Quote:

I think that there are 2 elite level QBs in this draft.

We pick 4th.

We have an extra 1st rounder if needed to move up.

We should, and I would say must come out of this draft with either Luck or RG3. If not we will go through another year of futility, and last minute "miraculous" drives to add a score to a long lost game.

If we get to 6-10, 7-9, 8-8 .... we won't pick this high again. We have an opportunity to pick a potentially elite uy right now. It's time to make that move and hopefully settle the most important position on the field for the next decade or so.

Or at least until the draft two years out?

So, if we draft Andrew Luck, we're going to win the Super Bowl next year? Make the playoffs next year? Go from 4-12 to 6-10?

Alright then! We should, without a doubt, mortgage the future of the franchise for him and let him languish in Cleveland, supported by poor talent and horrible coaching!

So, if we draft 2 other players in the first round we're going to win the Super Bowl next year? Make the playoffs? Go from 46 to 6-10?

That's an asinine argument.

We may slip some with a rookie QB. Who knows? That's not the point. The point is to get a guy with elite abilities who can become that eÍite QB.

Let me ask you a question. Do you see McCoy becoming an elite QB, under any circumstances? Do you see him becoming that guy who can take spare parts WRs and 2nd hand OL and still leading his team to victories, and the playoffs? Do you ever see him becoming a guy who can load his team on his back and carry them, if necessary?

I don't. I don't see a guy who can win the AFCN. I don't see a guy who can go over .500 in the AFCN if the team is built around him and his passing ability.

If we draft a guy with elite potential, then we might well have a guy who can do these things. The guy who can make the huge play under immense pressure. We might have the guy who can lead the team with his superior play on the field. We might have the guy who makes every other player better.

To me that's a chance worth taking. I don't see us going anywhere with McCoy at the helm.

I look back over this year and we produced the 2nd fewest points of any Browns team since 1978. That includes the expansion team. We also scored 3 or 4 last minute TDs in games where were were down 2 or more scores, where McCoy had been ineffective the entire game, and managed a last minute drive when the defense was more concerned with killing clock than stopping the browns offense. I saw this QB put up ridiculously horrible numbers until the defense started playing prevent, and leaving the underneath stuff open. I watched this QB throw a 5 yard pass in a game with seconds left, and us down by 7 or less. In short, I watched a lot of really poor QB play. I mean A LOT. People whine about drops, but if it wasn't for defenses trading time for points at the end of games, McCoy's stats would be about 3/4 what they wound up. Even if you give him his average play and credit him with a completion in place of every drop, he still played poorly. McCoy was saved the "opportunity" to play in the wind in the final game. I look back to last year, when McCoy showed some promise, and check out his final 2 games, in December and January, against Pittsburgh and Baltimore. They were abysmal.

McCoy, in fact, has been terrible against Pittsburgh and Baltimore overall.

The Baltimore game last year was "blustery" ...... but not horrible conditions. There weren't 40-40 MPH winds. McCoy has yet to play in the really fun winter wonderland that can take place on the lakefront. I do not think that he will get better when throwing into a 40MPH wind.

Anyway ..... I think that yes, a great QB will improve this team more than 2 other equally great players at different position would. I think that it is worth the risk to try and get one of the 2 potentially great QBs I see in this draft. I think that one of those 2 potentially great QBs could turn into a QB that could rival the Roethlisbergers and Bradys of the league. I would take a chance on that any time. I believe that it is that important to try and find that kind of QB.

I personally don't think Colt McCoy will.. but I mean u never know. He was very successful in college, won a lot of games, and it could at some point "click" and he become a star.

A lot of people who are not Browns fans tell me all the time that Colt would be a star if he weren't in this division. THey could be right.. could be wrong.. Guess we'll see..

There are some things he definitely needs to work on.. Pocket presence, throwing outside the numbers, and running while keeping his eyes up and scanning the field. If he can do that.. he will have no problems in this league..

Slip another struggling rookie at QB and he just becomes Version number whatever
of the "Get this SOB out of town" Cleveland fan battle cry! Dont let anybody develop and all the while screaming about lack of continuity! I dont know if colt has it or not but to toss a touted prospect out the window without seeing what he does with actual NFL talent is insane! What I do know is...

Nobody makes this fanbase happy!

Quote:

Quote:

MAN, I want that guy in Cleveland. BROWNMON???

No kidding! His attitude is exactly what this team needs.

Imagine him on one side, Little on the other. We'd be bloodying some noses with those two.

Quote:

Imagine him on one side, Little on the other. We'd be bloodying some noses with those two.

It would be a sight to see.. They are both pretty intimidating on the field. Little needs a little more work though. He's not quite the player Blackmon is, which is obvious though.

What was the name of that other QB everyone wanted like 2 weeks ago? Oh wait, it was Matt Barkley. I am pretty sure he will be in the draft next year. So why don't we use our picks this year to build the team, give Colt (or other placeholder) a year to see what clicks or doesn't, and if we still suck move up (or just take) and get Barkley? People here are acting as though we have to take a gamble with RGIII as if no other QB will ever be in the draft again.

1) We are not getting Luck
2) Fill other needs this year and look forward to Barkley in 2013 if Colt can't figure the WCO out in year 2.

Quote:

What was the name of that other QB everyone wanted like 2 weeks ago? Oh wait, it was Matt Barkley. I am pretty sure he will be in the draft next year. So why don't we use our picks this year to build the team, give Colt (or other placeholder) a year to see what clicks or doesn't, and if we still suck move up (or just take) and get Barkley? People here are acting as though we have to take a gamble with RGIII as if no other QB will ever be in the draft again.

1) We are not getting Luck
2) Fill other needs this year and look forward to Barkley in 2013 if Colt can't figure the WCO out in year 2.

HTF do you think we "move up or just take" Barkley next year? His asking price is going to be out of this world, we aren't going to have 2 first round picks to deal, and heaven help us we aren't going to have the first pick in the draft.

Quote:

HTF do you think we "move up or just take" Barkley next year? His asking price is going to be out of this world, we aren't going to have 2 first round picks to deal, and heaven help us we aren't going to have the first pick in the draft.

The same way everyone thinks we should move up to get Luck or RGIII (a gamble at best) this year.

If Colt is really that bad, then we will be drafting top 5-7 again next year and can package up a few future picks to get Barkley if we need to. No reason to gamble with RGIII this year when we have so many other needs.

First thing I do when FA opens is sign Matt Flynn!!! Then if we don't re-sign Hillis for less than he turned down (3 yrs for $13 mil) we sign Snelling or Tolbert. And maybe a Joe Staley to play RT. Would love to add John Abraham for 2 yr deal.

Draft
1A Justin Blackmon
1B Kendall Wright or Alshon Jeffrey prefer Wright
2 Chase Minnifield
3 LaMichael James

Then with the rest of our picks we pick all D. H & H said they wanted playmakers here is a few to help turn this around.

1 Blackmon
2 Little
Slot Wright
4 Cribbs
5 Norwood
6 MoMass

Quote:

Quote:

What was the name of that other QB everyone wanted like 2 weeks ago? Oh wait, it was Matt Barkley. I am pretty sure he will be in the draft next year. So why don't we use our picks this year to build the team, give Colt (or other placeholder) a year to see what clicks or doesn't, and if we still suck move up (or just take) and get Barkley? People here are acting as though we have to take a gamble with RGIII as if no other QB will ever be in the draft again.

1) We are not getting Luck
2) Fill other needs this year and look forward to Barkley in 2013 if Colt can't figure the WCO out in year 2.

HTF do you think we "move up or just take" Barkley next year? His asking price is going to be out of this world, we aren't going to have 2 first round picks to deal, and heaven help us we aren't going to have the first pick in the draft.

We do what I said a couple months ago, trade the Falcons pick with somebody for their first next year and a 2nd or 3rd this year (I do not know what exactly is fair compensation for that spot but it would have to include their first next year)... that way we can add a first round WR this year, a second round RT and hopefully some FAs this year and see how we do.. if we are still a 4-6 win team, we have a top 10 pick next year plus the first rounder we get in trade for the Falcons pick this year, (we are basically in the same position we are in now) we package them and move up to take a QB... it's hedging our bets and deferring the QB decision until next year... if we are going to stick with Colt, then I would definitely try to work it that way.

You and I are on the same page bro. I was thinking right along the same lines. That's the type of draft that people will remember. I'm hoping the front office thinks the same.

The only thing I may do differant in the draft is to use our second pick on defense as well. Not a fan of picking two players at the same positions in the first.

Quote:

It would be, though we would have to wait until we found a QB who could hit them in stride and not throw high over the middle leading them in to concussions.

I never thought of it that way, but boy isn't that the truth. How pissed will we be if we draft Blackmon at #4 and he misses half the year with a concussion thanks to Colt Frye? Yikes.

Quote:

The offensive line is probably the worst in the NFL

to be fair, the Rams did lose both their starting OTs to injury this season and Jason Brown (starting OC) sprained his knee and was benched for awhile after he struggled when he returned (maybe due to injury - hard to say)

Quote:

If we mortgage the farm to get Luck, we'll be picking in the top 10 in 2012 (if not the top 5).

Completely disagree. We'll be outside the top 10 at least (6 wins) and possibly even late teens to early 20s (8-9 wins).

Quote:

Hopefully, we will have filled a big hole in the long run, but there will be too many holes left elsewhere to compete next year. Maybe 2013, but 2012 will be another rough one. Given the current state of our roster, you can just about bank on that.

I guess that depends on your definition of "compete". If you mean for a Super Bowl then yeah. If you mean to go 500 or better, no.

Quote:

Or what the cost will be. If the cost is two #1s this year and next years #1 (which is already too much) and others are saying to add additional picks, at what point do you say that the cost it too great?

I wouldn't give up both of this year's two first round picks. To me, that's too much. I'd consider the 1st and 2nd this year and that's about it. I wouldn't give up two firsts (especially when one of them is #4 overall) for any single player. I don't care who they are.

And I'd say you're crazy. I give up WAY more than that if I'm getting Joe Montana or John Elway or Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers. If Luck is truly a top 5 talent NFL QB like those guys then he's more than worth it.

And like I stated in another thread I'd offer our 2 1st's this year + a mid rounder (4th ish) to start but that won't get it done. I'd add in our 1st next year (3 1sts total) and another mid rounder next (3rd or 4th). If they wanted a 3rd #1 I'd remove this year's mid-rounder and move next year's mid rounder to later (5th or 6th round). If they wanted a FOURTH #1 pick...that's where I might have to think about drawing the line.

So here's my "max" scenarios:
1) 2012 Rd 1A, 2012 Rd 1B, 2012 Rd 4, 2013 Rd 1, 2013 Rd 3
2) 2012 Rd 1A, 2012 Rd 1B, 2013 Rd 1, 2013 Rd 6, 2014 Rd 1

Both scenarios, while definitely expensive, still give us the ability to add some starting level talent with draft picks in the top 4 rounds in each of the next 3 drafts.

The problem is, my gut tells me Indy looks at both of those offers and still says "no" because they know how good Luck is too.

And then we're back to hoping Blackmon falls to us and that Colt doesn't get him killed....

Quote:

So, Andrew Luck is now Peyton Manning?

Let's give the kid 13 years in the NFL first. Coincidentally, Manning won 3 games his rookie season. Troy Aikman won a single game - and he had Michael Irving on that team!

No draft pick is ever 100% obviously. But, in terms of prospects, yes he IS Peyton Manning...if not better.

Here's a fun fact, you don't get to watch a guy play in the NFL for 13 years before you decide if he's worth the risk or not.

If you aren't willing to take the "gamble" with Luck, you never will be. You might as well just forget ever thinking about drafting a 1st round QB b/c they're all too risky. Let's just roll with backups for the rest of eternity and "hope" a Tom Brady falls into our laps some time in the next 50 years. It's worked well for us the last 10 years

If you are comparing them as prospects only, he also "is" Ryan Leaf... just as much as Peyton Manning

The cost will be 4+ first round picks, and I hope we don't pay it

Quote:

(we are basically in the same position we are in now) we package them and move up to take a QB... it's hedging our bets and deferring the QB decision until next year... if we are going to stick with Colt, then I would definitely try to work it that way.

I completely agree that we don't need to reach for RG3, but only b/c I seriously doubt he'll be an elite NFL QB.

Why do we need to "hedge our bets and defer the QB decision until next year" though?

For one, if we wait until next year then there is no Luck in next years QB class. He's a once a decade type talent. Barkley was my #2 this year for sure...and he'd be an ok consolation prize next year but he's no Andrew Luck.

Second, we already know what we have in Colt...and it's not good. We don't NEED another year just to "be sure". He has 21 career starts over 2 seasons already for crying out loud. That's more time than A LOT of QBs get in this league.

We may get another year of Colt whether we want it or not though unfortunately...

Quote:

A number one is also relative. IF we win 8 games next year ... theoretically of course ... then we would be looking at about the #16 overall.

Would you trade the #4, #27 (or whatever atlanta's is) and the #16 next year to get the number 1 and take luck? I do if I am sure I want to pin my career on him whether that be as a GM, a Coach, or a President.

The question is, how much do you trust your own evaluations?

What if we get hot next year and wind up winning 9 or 10 games and getting to the playoffs? the #4, and two picks in the mid 20's wouldn't be a bad deal in itself, let alone for the guy who could take us to the playoffs and win the division every year for a decade.

,
The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out.. So you lose the guy and the picks and maybe your job.

Pinning every hope and dream on one guy seems rather risky to me. actually, it seems WAY too risky to me.

If all you had to do was use the pick you have (say if Luck drops to you at 4)then all you risk is that pick.. that's it. But using a couple of 1's this year and another one next year and probably some others to boot, you could kill your teams chances to improve for years to come.

Haven't we already proven that with the whole brady quinn thing.. Give up picks this year and next years number one, then trade away your 2nd rounder for another guy and your third rounder for yet another guy and 4 years later, none of them are here and weren't good while they were. (exception was rogers,, he played well when he played)

that left us with our first pick being in Rd 4 and we get a guy that's out of the league today,,,,

we are behiind because of those two drafts more than any previous or since..

No, it's not JUST about trusting your evaluations. It's way more than that.

Quote:

The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..

Quote:

If you are comparing them as prospects only, he also "is" Ryan Leaf... just as much as Peyton Manning

No he isn't.

Ryan Leaf came on his senoir year pretty much out of nowhere and shot up the draft because of it...

Quote:

Completely disagree. We'll be outside the top 10 at least (6 wins) and possibly even late teens to early 20s (8-9 wins).

You must have been watching a different football team than I was this season. We'll see what happens if we go get Luck and spend a fortune to do it...

Quote:

I guess that depends on your definition of "compete". If you mean for a Super Bowl then yeah. If you mean to go 500 or better, no.

Again, I don't see where we'll be four wins better next season with a green QB who's learning the WCO. I can see that we'd be better in the long run, but 2012 will still suck. 6-7 wins. Max. Likely fewer than that.

I think what makes Luck so attractive to team officials, is that he's smart, mature and NFL ready ... which all that means is that he will be a capable NFL quarterback right off the bat and they may hold on to their job for an extra year.

But that doesn't make him a future Pro Bowler. The League is full of capable NFL QB's, but not many of them can carry a team. I'd say there are currently only 5-6 of them in the League. There is no guarantees on Luck. I'd rather they pass on the sweepstakes and see who falls to their pick.

They can still use a later pick to get a QB. Andy Daulton (IMO, the most impressive rookie) was a 2nd round pick. I agree, until they know for sure if Colt is their future, they should still use a pick on a QB.

You think that Dalton was more impressive than Cam Newton?

Cam Newton ... over 4000 yards passing as a rookie, 60% completion ... 21 TD, 17 INT, and an astonishing 7.84 yards/pass attempt ...... as a rookie.

He also ran for 700 yards and 14 TDs.

He accounted for 35 combined TDs as a rookie. That's unheard of.

I think that Dalton did really well too, and I think that he's going to be a plus quality QB for a long time (unfortunately for us) ..... but Newton showed real Superstar potential, and delivered quite a bit on that potential this year.

I think with better QB play we would have contended for the playoffs this year...(aka WC)

I think THIS YEAR Luck would have played better than Colt did...

He's a smart guy, With the same amount of time to learn the offense Colt had, and..ya know..BETTER TALENT...

So next year, to say Luck will just come in and suck... Just ridiculous(imo)

The draft needs to HAPPEN... So we can stop talking about what we THINK will happen, and talk about what actually happened...

Quote:

The draft needs to HAPPEN... So we can stop talking about what we THINK will happen, and talk about what actually happened...

Yeah. But it will be a real exciting build-up for Browns fans. Having the 2 picks. Having a high pick. Having so many teams in need of a QB. It will keep the talking heads on the NFL Network going for hours on end.

re: Cam Newton, yes, he's more of a super star than Dalton. One heck of a player. But I would have bet the house, that Cinci weren't making the playoffs. In fact, when they announced that they were going with Dalton as their starter, I figured they wouldn't win much more than 2 games. I guess, that's what I found so impressive about his performance.

LOL,, do you stutter? or do you just like to see me write

Dalton was definitely impressive. He threw 20 TD and only 13 INT in his rookie season, and helped their offense improve in scoring and the team in wins, despite replacing a pretty damn good QB, and coming in cold with no training camp.

i just agreed with it that much

Quote:

despite replacing a pretty damn good QB

I thought he replaced Carson Palmer?

I think that both Luck and RG3 will have careers that will be far superior to McCoy.

I also think that there are a couple of other guys in this draft who have a shot to be productive QBs. If we do not get either RG3 or Luck, then I would look at a guy like Russell Wilson out of Wisconsin. He's short, but he's got the brain, arm, accuracy, and knows how to find throwing lanes behind a massive OL. He could be a big time sleeper who winds up giving the rest of the league nightmares. I also think that he could step into a starting lineup on day 1 and be productive.

I had no idea what his name was, but when I was watching Wisconsin the other day (was that yesterday?), I found myself very much liking what I was seeing from their QB.

His throws were strong and crisp, the ball got out where it was going in a hurry.

IF we take a QB, I could be ok with him being that choice - and we wouldn't have to sell the farm to get him, either.

wait, you lambast Colt at every turn, but you want Russell Wilson?

do you know who Russell Wilson plays like? who his build reminds many of? how he is better at making throws on a rollout compared to in the pocket (and may need to in the NFL to find throwing lanes)?

the only difference between college-Colt and Wilson is that Colt had more college success, which is why Wilson will probably go a round or two lower in the draft.

Quote:

The draft needs to HAPPEN... So we can stop talking about what we THINK will happen, and talk about what actually happened...

lol, don't worry, we only have another 3 and a half months of this.

Just think, when this draft goes on the snow will (most likely) be gone and even the Indians will be playing, lol!

Wilson has an arm that puts McCoy to shame. He CAN make every throw. He is also far, far more accurate than McCoy can dream of being.

They are both mobile QBs who can throw on the run. That's really the end of the comparison.

Quote:

First thing I do when FA opens is sign Matt Flynn!!! Then if we don't re-sign Hillis for less than he turned down (3 yrs for $13 mil) we sign Snelling or Tolbert. And maybe a Joe Staley to play RT. Would love to add John Abraham for 2 yr deal.

Draft
1A Justin Blackmon
1B Kendall Wright or Alshon Jeffrey prefer Wright
2 Chase Minnifield
3 LaMichael James

Then with the rest of our picks we pick all D. H & H said they wanted playmakers here is a few to help turn this around.

1 Blackmon
2 Little
Slot Wright
4 Cribbs
5 Norwood
6 MoMass

After watching Blackmon play last night sign me up, I would love to see us draft all of those players. Heckert says he wants play makers....right there is 4 with 4 picks. If we go that route we need to look into Matt Flynn....I was skeptical on him, but think he might be just what the Dr ordered for Shurmer's "O" to click. And getting him a couple playmakers like Blackmon and Wright to go with Little, Cribbs, and Norwood and we got some serious firepower for once

Russell Wilson was more accurate than Colt in college? Not unless you are willing to completely ignore his career before Wisconsin. Even then, Colt had a season with a better completion %.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13199/type/college/colt-mccoy

http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/stats/_/id/238093/russell-wilson

By the numbers, having watched them play, or by scouting reports. No matter which way you go they are very similar players.

And, that is not necessarily a bad thing. Colt could improve with an offseason to learn the WCO. He didn't improve as much as we would have liked this season, and most believe we need to get someone else in here, but it is possible. And, even if he doesn't that doesn't mean a similar QB will fail.

But, I think it's funny that a very similar QB you are now touting as you were among the first to bail on Colt.

I am talking about how he places the ball, not just completion percentage. he does a nice job of leading his receivers, and putting the ball on them.

He can also make the throw that rainbows over the defender into the receivers hands, can throw the fade, hit the back shoulder, and can hit a receiver in stride.

I am also talking about Wilson as a 3rd-4th round possibility. I do think that comparing McCoy to him is pretty far off.

I will add that Wilson may never even play in the NFL if he decides that MLB is the way to go. It would probably be the avenue that would give him a better shot at success given his size.

One thing I would be afraid of is if he decided that he would "try" football for a year, go through a couple of training camps to see what happens, then decides to play baseball. That could result in a wasted pick.

Quote:

Quote:

HTF do you think we "move up or just take" Barkley next year? His asking price is going to be out of this world, we aren't going to have 2 first round picks to deal, and heaven help us we aren't going to have the first pick in the draft.

The same way everyone thinks we should move up to get Luck or RGIII (a gamble at best) this year.

If Colt is really that bad, then we will be drafting top 5-7 again next year and can package up a few future picks to get Barkley if we need to. No reason to gamble with RGIII this year when we have so many other needs.

Barkley won't be the only highly rated Qb coming out next year. The Wilson kid out of Arkansas will be a top 10 pick easily and if Bray leaves Tennessee then we are looking at a draft comparable to the Manning/Rivers/Roethlisberger draft.

Murray (UGa) will be better than Bray IMO.

Quote:

The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out.. So you lose the guy and the picks and maybe your job.

Pinning every hope and dream on one guy seems rather risky to me. actually, it seems WAY too risky to me.

Tell that to the New England Patriots.
Tell that to the Indianapolis Colts.
Tell that to the Pittsburgh Steelers.
Tell that to the New Orleans Saints.
Tell that to the Detroit Lions.
Tell that to the Houston Texans (watch them without Schaub)
Tell that to the San Francisco 49ers in the 80s with Montana.
Shoot, tell that to the Chicago Bears.

Every one of those teams is in the playoffs and competing for the super bowl with *one guy" and aren't even sniffing the playoffs without that "one guy". Do you think they'd rather get rid of that guy for a couple extra starters just because they're worried about him getting hurt?

This is what I mean when I say I don't think people grasp the importance of having not a "good" or "average" or "serviceable" QB in the NFL, but rather an elite level talent. Yes you still need a defense, a running game, a good coach etc....but none of it matters UNTIL you have that QB. With him, it makes the team run like a well oiled machine. Without him and even with the other pieces you're going to struggle.

We don't currently have one. We may have the unique opportunity to acquire one in this draft...yet people still aren't "sure" because he might get injured??

Everybody gets injured at some point in the NFL....even with "the guy", we will struggle during those years if it happens, but it's more than worth it for all the other seasons where he isn't hurt and you're in the playoffs.

Quote:

If all you had to do was use the pick you have (say if Luck drops to you at 4)then all you risk is that pick.. that's it. But using a couple of 1's this year and another one next year and probably some others to boot, you could kill your teams chances to improve for years to come.

As has been stated and shown by multiple people now...no it doesn't. We'll still have SOME draft picks in the top 3-4 rounds each of the next 3 years AND we have $$ to spend in free agency each year. It doesn't "kill" anything other than finally solving our QB deficiency.

Quote:

Haven't we already proven that with the whole brady quinn thing..

OMG. Here we go again with trying to compare Andrew Luck with Brady freaking Quinn. Brady Quinn was TERRIBLE. He was god awful at Notre Dame. He was god awful the minute he stepped in Berea. I threw a book at the tv the instant that idiot Phil Savage traded up to get him. It's distinctly possible that he would have slid all the way to the 2nd round had we not been dumb enough to pick him. There was a reason for that. Trying to say "see it didn't work with a terrible QB so we shouldn't do it for a franchise QB" is beyond idiotic.

If Andrew Luck were no better than Brady Quinn I'd be 110% against giving up ANYTHING to go get him too. Big problem though...he IS.

Quote:

we are behiind because of those two drafts more than any previous or since..

I'd argue we're behind because we change coaches and front offices every 2-3 years which require entire scheme and roster purges. That and the fact that we've NEVER gotten a franchise QB. Of course, if we HAD gotten a franchise QB there's a good chance the coach/FO turnover stops too....two birds with one stone.

Quote:

The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..

Who actually said this???...I have a good guess...But who???

Cause the DOLT that said that ...I can't even go further...Unreal stupidity......

We might as well NEVER draft anyone EVER again...

...I mean they COULD get hurt!

Which is why I have a sneaking suspicion that the same people who are clamoring of us to trade down are the same people worried about our draft pick getting injured.

You see, that way we can have 49 4th round draft picks. They all suck, but man when one gets injured we can just plug in the next guy and keep on trucking....I mean sucking.

Quote:

And I'd say you're crazy. I give up WAY more than that if I'm getting Joe Montana or John Elway or Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers. If Luck is truly a top 5 talent NFL QB like those guys then he's more than worth it.

Build the time machine, go forward into time 5 years and let me know how Luck has done as a Cleveland Browns QB Otherwise, I think you're the one that's crazy.

Quote:

And like I stated in another thread I'd offer our 2 1st's this year + a mid rounder (4th ish) to start but that won't get it done. I'd add in our 1st next year (3 1sts total) and another mid rounder next (3rd or 4th). If they wanted a 3rd #1 I'd remove this year's mid-rounder and move next year's mid rounder to later (5th or 6th round). If they wanted a FOURTH #1 pick...that's where I might have to think about drawing the line.

I still think you're offering too much if you're giving up more than this years two #1s. In fact, I think you're offering too much even at that, but I can understand the thinking on it if you truly believe that Luck is your franchise QB for at least the length of his initial NFL contract. Three #1s is definitely too much but I'd set our upper limit at the #4 overall and our 2nd rounder this year. I wouldn't even give up a first this year (#4 overall) and next years first rounder.

Quote:

So here's my "max" scenarios:
1) 2012 Rd 1A, 2012 Rd 1B, 2012 Rd 4, 2013 Rd 1, 2013 Rd 3
2) 2012 Rd 1A, 2012 Rd 1B, 2013 Rd 1, 2013 Rd 6, 2014 Rd 1

I think both of those are insane amounts to give for any player. I don't care if it's Peyton Manning. I'd let you have Peyton Manning and draft Donovan McNabb the following year or wait three years and draft Drew Brees.

No, I wouldn't give up those valuable picks. I'd play the odds and look to get a quality players with those picks instead of giving Indy the Hershel Walker scenario or Ricky Williams trade.

Quote:

Both scenarios, while definitely expensive, still give us the ability to add some starting level talent with draft picks in the top 4 rounds in each of the next 3 drafts.

The problem is, my gut tells me Indy looks at both of those offers and still says "no" because they know how good Luck is too.

We should be looking to steady improvement and I think you're not going to be able to accomplish that giving away your first round picks.

Quote:

And then we're back to hoping Blackmon falls to us and that Colt doesn't get him killed....

It's not Colt getting them killed. All receivers take these shots. If they don't want to get laid out, maybe they should get some separation from the defenders. They didn't and paid the price for it.

Quote:

We might as well NEVER draft anyone EVER again...

...I mean they COULD get hurt!

Taken out of context, you're correct.

Taken IN context - it's foolish to throw out 2 first this year, next years first and a second this year - for one player.

McCoy's been hurt 2 years in a row for an extended period of time.

It's foolish to think about pinning our hopes on him .......

It works both ways.

I'm pretty certain I didn't say anything about McCoy.

I'm pretty certain I didn't say we should pin our hopes on McCoy.

No, you seconded the concern about a player who hasn't been hurt possibly getting hurt.

I brought up concern over a guy who was hurt his senior year of college, and has been hurt in both of his 1st 2 professional seasons, and how I don't think that we should pin our hopes on him for that very reason.

Actually, he seconded an opinion against completely emptying the piggy bank to pick up one player.. because IF he gets hurt, you have NOTHING.
You will have spent half your draft to get one player and have nothing to show for it except still having a TON of holes all over the rest of the team that could have been filled with a trade down.

That said, you should never worry about this sort of injury possibility when drafting. The concern should be what makes your team competitive for the long haul.

Quote:

That said, you should never worry about this sort of injury possibility when drafting. The concern should be what makes your team competitive for the long haul.

Unless you're drafting Hardesty.

Nah.... that's unfair.

It's not like he has continually re-injured the leg he injured in college.
It's a Courtney Brown situation where things just keep going wrong for him.

Where his REAL problem is, is that when healthy he hasn't done anything worth noting.

Quote:

Actually, he seconded an opinion against completely emptying the piggy bank to pick up one player.. because IF he gets hurt, you have NOTHING.
You will have spent half your draft to get one player and have nothing to show for it except still having a TON of holes all over the rest of the team that could have been filled with a trade down.

100% agreed. I'm not concerned about injury as that can happen to/with any player - draftee, or 10 yr. all pro vet.

My concern is tossing away the draft this year and next year, basically, to get 1 player. (any player) All the hype is just that - hype. Nothing proven on ANY player. And yes, I understand some have more upside than others, I get it.

It's like a kid at Christmas. All to often they open that shiny new toy they've wanted and wanted - only to find out it's not that great when they get it..............and if that kid tells mom and dad he's fine with foregoing the rest of this Christmas, and next years Christmas presents in order to get that one shiny new "must have" toy and finds out he doesn't like it - well, tough, right?

Look, the Browns have holes all over. We need our draft picks. If we can get a qb without killing our draft and the next one - great! I'm all for it.

If we can get Luck or RG - for a decent trade of picks - fantastic! But if we do, they'll still be behind basically the same line, with basically the same receivers trying to catch the ball, with the same lack of a running game.

Then what?

And, I understand a qb can make an o better - I totally get that. But is 6-10 "better"? Is 8-8 better? There's just as much a chance of that as there is being 10-6 or better........meanwhile, if we sold ourselves out to get one of those 2, we're stuck for a few years. (and this is Cleveland after all - if we aren't in the playoffs in 2 years - assuming we got Luck or RG - people will be clamoring for the next qb).

Get either one of them for a decent trade of picks - fantastic. But 3 first rounders and a second or 2? I don't agree with that.

What kind of record would the Steelers have this year without Roethlisberger?

4-12? Maybe 5-11? Their OL was beyond flat out awful. When Roethlisberger sat, the offense stalled.

What would the Colts have looked like without Mann ......

Oh never mind.

How about a playoff contender like Da Bears? Surely they could survive the loss of their QB .......

Maybe a rookie QB could improve a team like Carolina or Cincinnati? That might happen.

There are examples piled on top of examples of teams who get the QB right improving dramatically, and those who lose that QB falling off the map till they make it back. The huge exception this year is the Texans, who had their division close to being wrapped up, then hung in to win it. For all of the good their backup QBs did, the Texans lost their last 3 games. They went from scoring under 22 points only twice in 10 games with Schaub at the helm to never scoring over 22 the rest of the season. Yates did a remarkable job, but it would not surprise me to see the Texans shown the door this weekend. I don't know who will even be starting for them, but when your future is a choice between Delhomme and Yates ... Yikes.

The Lions, last year, were a so-so team. Their defense is nothing special. They got their QB back and all of a sudden they can beat the crap out of teams with their offense. Last year they scored 362 points. This year they scored 474. Their defense actually gave up more points this year than last. They haven't exactly loaded up on offensive talent since the draft to surround him with a comfort zone. They had a roster before they got Stafford into the lineup. Now they have a playoff team.

I want a guy who potentially makes our team a legitimate Super Bowl contender, no matter what he costs. If he gets hurt, then we deal with an injury for that year, and come back the next year knowing that we have this vital piece already in place.

Quote:

If we can get Luck or RG - for a decent trade of picks - fantastic! But if we do, they'll still be behind basically the same line, with basically the same receivers trying to catch the ball, with the same lack of a running game.

This is where u r out in left field...

U r saying we CAN'T upgrade RT...Which we COULD in 3 or 4...Even round 2...THIS YEAR...

We may just resign Hillis...

A WR can be had also via Draft or FA...

It CAN be done...

just to keep you honest here:

the Steelers are 4-1 the past 2 years when Big Ben has missed games.
the Patriots went 10-6 with Cassel when Brady missed the season.
the Texans are on their 4th QB - not sure how many teams can survive that type of attrition at any position.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that we are going to have a lot of money to work with in free agency, or am I wrong?

If we go into free agency and pick up a WLB, DE, WR, and RT ...... not out of the realm of possibilities, then we could easily trade up if necessary for our QB, draft a CB, (a position of depth and quality in this draft) grab another WR, (another position with quality depth from everything I have read) backup DT, and another OL for depth.

We could have a dramatically improved team in just a few months ... even if we have to give up some picks to ensure that we get the QB we want. (if that's what the front office decides that want to do)

I agree.

The key to our improving is what we do in FA, not what we do in the draft.

We have to get 3-4 GOOD players.

If we go after 2nd tier guys it tells me this bunch isn't serious about winning any time soon.

We have to target some positions in FA so we are free to draft the best players we can.

If we are stuck trying to plug 4-5 holes come draft day, the season is over in April, just as it has been for a decade now.

Well, we need to get both right. We need to plug some holes in free agency so that we can make whatever moves we deem necessary to get the premium players we want at premium positions.

I agree. I didn't intend to make it sound like the draft isn't important.

I am just saying we have to get several starting caliber players for next year and it isn't going to happen in the draft.

We may find 3-4-5 guys in the draft who will work in to that role, but we have to start winning NOW....not 2-3 years from now.

We need just a few more proven players and a few less drafted guys with potential playing on first string.

I am all in on free agents this year. Get a boat load and pay the 2-3 targets whatever it takes to bring them home.

I think that Free Agency *always* sets the stage for the Draft (last year being the exception). You just cannot and do not plan for the Draft in a bubble... it's one of the reasons that I tend to dislike Draft talk this early. You can talk all you want right now, but everything is going to get turned on its head within seven days of free agency starting.

You also just have to be smart in your shopping - something that we don't really have a demonstrated history of.

what big name free agents have made huge impacts lately?

I only want to address the o-line w/ Free Agency.. and maybe LB.. The rest of the positions.. i wanna get better w/ the draft.

For one, who said anything about "big name"? And why does the impact have to be "huge"?
It's about fixing holes & shoring up weaknesses, not stacking yourself with All Pro's at every spot.

Secondly, for us, or elsewhere?

For us: Steinbach was a pretty damn good signing. Jureviscious was, too, while he was healthy. Gocong and Fujita have both been good signings (though some on here will poo-poo the Fujita comment).

For others: How about the Saints signing Darren Sproles? How about.... hell, how about half of all free agents signed everywhere?

Quote:

I think that Free Agency *always* sets the stage for the Draft (last year being the exception). You just cannot and do not plan for the Draft in a bubble... it's one of the reasons that I tend to dislike Draft talk this early. You can talk all you want right now, but everything is going to get turned on its head within seven days of free agency starting.

You also just have to be smart in your shopping - something that we don't really have a demonstrated history of.

I agree. Unfortunately it is the only talk over the last 5 years that gets people excited, except for the coaching changes.

No doubt you need to shop smart, but it is to the point once we key in on a few players we need to make sure we have the high bid.....the price you pay for crappy drafting.

To Turk....it doesn't have to be BIG name players, but they have to be players.

As for immpact, they don't have to be all-pros.....just solid starters...something we lack.

I don't like paying top money for solid guys. It would be better if we got to pay solid money, but we have to get better....and the league is changing. We need to jump on the first wave.

In another year teams are going to find out they are going to have to pay some of these guys more money then accustomed to due to the CBA. They can't decide to play under the cap as they could before. The money has to be spent.

As for positions, I wouldn't preclude any position from potential upgrade via free agency.

Quote:

For one, who said anything about "big name"? And why does the impact have to be "huge"?
It's about fixing holes & shoring up weaknesses, not stacking yourself with All Pro's at every spot.

Secondly, for us, or elsewhere?

For us: Steinbach was a pretty damn good signing. Jureviscious was, too, while he was healthy. Gocong and Fujita have both been good signings (though some on here will poo-poo the Fujita comment).

For others: How about the Saints signing Darren Sproles? How about.... hell, how about half of all free agents signed everywhere?

Steinbach was a great signing. And the reason why I want to address the oline through free agency.

Gocong was not a free agent.. he was traded here along w/ Brown.. But again.. both were good pickups..

Fujita has been a solid contributor. He's solid against the run.

I'll have to give Heckert his props.. The guys he has brought in have helped out this team. But the problem is offense. Offensively, what can we do to get better through free agency?

If we get Luck, we will not have a round 2 pick this year - you can basically book that.

Quote:

what big name free agents have made huge impacts lately?

Sproles. Julius Peppers.

Quote:

Quote:

what big name free agents have made huge impacts lately?

Sproles. Julius Peppers.

there was also this guy. a QB. think he had a couple probowl years in SD before he hit free agency.

Quote:

Quote:

If we can get Luck or RG - for a decent trade of picks - fantastic! But if we do, they'll still be behind basically the same line, with basically the same receivers trying to catch the ball, with the same lack of a running game.

This is where u r out in left field...

U r saying we CAN'T upgrade RT...Which we COULD in 3 or 4...Even round 2...THIS YEAR...

We may just resign Hillis...

A WR can be had also via Draft or FA...

It CAN be done...

And, conversely, we COULD upgrade our qb through free agency, save our picks for some of the other myriad holes we have, and be an improved team. Right?

My only point is: Why dump so, so many picks for one guy? We need help at a lot of positions. If the price for Luck or RG is too high (as in both firsts this year, a second this year, and next years first), why not upgrade other positions with our OWN picks this year, then see what transpires with the team, knowing we still have next years first round.

After all - a guy that many on here were pimping as "better than Luck" will be in the draft next year, right?

If luck or RG is available this year, take them. With in reason. Face it - 1 player isn't going to make us a super bowl team in year one, 2, or probably even 3.

If we sell out to get luck or rg - we hamper our future drafts as well as this years draft.

That's really it. I don't see anyone, ever, that is worth 3 first round picks and a second rounder, especially for a team like the Browns.

I'm NOT anti Luck. I'm NOT anti RG. I'm NOT pro Colt. I'm all for sensible drafting.

Worse yet, if you sell out to get Luck this year, then you are set back at least two years with a drastically reduced ability to improve yourself via the draft. You'd have ONLY free agency to improve and backfill holes from guys leaving. So, now you're emptying the coffers for free agents and the only young talent coming in is from mid and late rounds... all at the expense of one player.

It's absolutely stubborn and foolhardy at this point, IMO. A huge negative.

yeah, what arch said.

J/C,

The expectations for Andrew Luck for this level are astronomical.

I should think that he will have a lot of pressure trying to live up to those quite lofty expectation, but if he has a chance to watch how the Master operates for a few seasons I think that he will be better prepared to slay his demeans and carve out a nitch for himself in this League not unlike Aaron Rodgers has been able to do.

You think that Luck is under the micro scope now ... then wait and see how much more that becomes focused on if there is a mega trade for his services.

Part of me actually feels sorry for him (well he will be a millionaire, so not so much) if this happens.

Like LBJ being compared to Jordan.
It's really not fair, and yet comparisons will be made.

And as sure as I am sitting here if there was ever a team that could get a dud from a box of select loads ... Then that would be our beloved Browns.

100% agreed.

Often times I have felt sorry for Luck (not from a future financial standpoint mind you), but he's going to have the weight of the world put on him - unless he comes to Cleveland. If that happens, it will be the weight of the universe.

and he'll have exactly 3 games to realize that potential.

Quote:

and he'll have exactly 3 games to realize that potential.

All in the preaseason.....

Quote:

If we can get Luck or RG - for a decent trade of picks - fantastic! But if we do, they'll still be behind basically the same line, with basically the same receivers trying to catch the ball, with the same lack of a running game.

You will be amazed at how improved our offense will look with ONE top end WR and a legit QB. It makes Little our #2, Cribbs our #3 and Massa our #4 with Norwood also in the rotation. With a real QB and one new guy to push our other receivers to their natural spots our QB will look better, our WR will look better, and magically with a real passing game our OLine and RB will look better too.

Two players. Even if we trade up for Luck (which is 1 of the 2 players) we have enough ammo to get the other guy either as a mid round draft pick (think 2nd or 3rd round whichever we still have after the trade) or via FA. I'm not talking about us needing Jerry Rice here either. We just need someone who runs precise routes (needed for the WCO) has good hands (he's a WR after all) and has some speed to be the deep threat required to stretch the defense. A guy like Mohamed Sanu in the 2nd round fits that bill.

Quote:

And, conversely, we COULD upgrade our qb through free agency, save our picks for some of the other myriad holes we have, and be an improved team. Right?

If any FA QB were as good as Luck, yes we COULD. Problem. None of em are. No not even "future hall of famer" Matt Flynn. If we want to finally fix our QB problems for the next decade this off-season we have 1 choice. If we want to wait another 10-20 years to find a guy this good again...or choose to just continue running out "adequate" QBs (whether that's Wallace, McCoy, Flynn, Tannehill etc) then we have lots of options.

Quote:

After all - a guy that many on here were pimping as "better than Luck" will be in the draft next year, right?

Huh? Matt Barkley would have squarely been the #2 QB in this years draft. He'll most likely (but not for sure) be the #1 QB in next years draft....but he is no Andrew Luck. Luck was the sure-fire #1 pick in LAST YEARS draft while Barkley wasn't even in the conversation. Luck is the undisputed #1 pick in this years draft while Barkley was a clear cut #2. Luck would be the clear #1 pick in NEXT YEARS draft if he weren't coming out. Barkley will be in the #1 talk argument (with no Luck) with some other guys also in the running. There is a big difference between the two.

That's like saying "hey we don't HAVE to go draft LeBron James. After all, we can just get Luol Deng next year instead." He's a good player in his own right, but it's not even comparable.

Quote:

Face it - 1 player isn't going to make us a super bowl team in year one, 2, or probably even 3.

.

Well it won't be just 1 player. As has been said now almost a hundred times. We'll have other draft picks every season AND free agency every season. Even if we give up both 1st's plus a mid rounder THIS year for Luck....we'll be adding Luck + 1 or 2 starting caliber players from the top 4 rounds in the draft + 1 or 2 starting caliber players via FA. So it's more like Luck + 2 to 4 starters each year.

And even with those #'s no, he isn't leading us to the super bowl in year one and most likely not in year 2 (but playoffs seem like a realistic goal)...but if we make the playoffs in year 2, super bowl talk could be a distinct possibility by year 3 for sure.

Quote:

If we sell out to get luck or rg - we hamper our future drafts as well as this years draft.

No. We don't. You act as if 1st round draft picks are ALL we get. Welp, if we trade our 1sts then we might as well just not draft anybody because that's all that counts. You do realize NFL starting talent is readily available in the first 3-4 rounds of every draft right? For every guy you "miss" on in those rounds you hope to find a "gem" in rounds 5-7 and UDFA to make up for it. We can still add people via the draft even after a trade like this.

Quote:

That's really it. I don't see anyone, ever, that is worth 3 first round picks and a second rounder, especially for a team like the Browns.

A once in a generation type franchise QB is worth MORE than that...to ANY team in the NFL including the Browns.

Quote:

I'm NOT anti Luck. I'm NOT anti RG. I'm NOT pro Colt. I'm all for sensible drafting.

And I'm all for finally fixing the QB position so we can actually win games and talk about our playoff match-up every January instead of bickering about the draft!

I can't wait for the day when we have a legitimate superstar QB in this town. It has been so long since we have had one that people have forgotten just how much of an impact a legitimate superstar QB can have on a team.

I"m not going to quote your whole post. Bear with me, I'm just going to comment on some of your remarks.

You seem sure - SURE - that this kid, Luck - is a guaranteed all pro. Why? Because he "seems" that way in college? You're willing to trade 3 first round picks for a chance?????? That's crazy, given the recent history of first round qb picks. Not only crazy, but insane really.

And with that said - if we can make a 1 for 1 swap, and throw in a second rounder - go for it. Okay? I'm not anti Luck - I'm PRO Browns. It should be simple to understand.

Also, you state we can improve our line, our receivers, etc, in rounds 2-4. While that often times is true - is it not also true that at times second round qb picks, or 6th round qb picks (think Tom Brady here), can also be good?

Or how about this: we trade our 3 firsts and a second for Luck. Next year we go 6-10. Shurmer gets fired. We get a new head coach, a new offense, a new defense, and the following year we go 6-10. Have we improved? How nice would it have been to have those draft picks?

So we enter year 3 with luck - and go 8-8. By that time, most on here are calling for Lucks head saying "what a wasted pick he was".......look at team X - they drafted a guy and went 8-8 is first year,,,,,,,,,,,,etc, ad nauseum.

Meanwhile - having missed 2 years of a first round pick, we go back to sucking again

LIke I said - I'm not anti Luck - nor am I pro Colt. I'm only saying let's not toss 2 years of picks away.

Quote:

I can't wait for the day when we have a legitimate superstar QB in this town. It has been so long since we have had one that people have forgotten just how much of an impact a legitimate superstar QB can have on a team.

As I've said before - put Aaron Rodgers on this years team. Keep the bad snaps on field goals the same, the blow ups on special teams the same - and we end up 5-11 or maybe 6-10.

That's a superstar, right?

Hell, a qb that has 2 starts in his life threw for how many yards playing for the packers?????????? He's a super star? You mean to tell me the packers go from super star Favre, to super star Rodgers, to super star Flynn...........and the surrounding cast gets no credit????????? Honestly?

If you honestly believe that with Rodgers this year we'd even be in position to lose to STL by a FG then I don't even know what your evaluation of a QB is...

And that's just that one game...

Rodgers on this team, this year, And we are contending for a playoff berth...

Also...

People want to talk about our running game being bad... In 07 we threw to open up the run... This year we COULDN'T THROW... So noone had to be concerned with it... Not that would effect our run game though right?

If we have Aaron Rodgers on this team we aren't relying on last second drives and FG tries against teams playing 1st time starters and washed up backups at QB.

I'm not saying that we would be a Super Bowl team this year. With an Aaron Rodgers instead of Colt McCoy, we would have won probably 9-10 games. We should have won 8 with McCoy. We played 4 teams using their backup QBs. 5 if you consider that the Steelers had to use Batch for part of our 1st game with them. We had about as easy a schedule as we could have hoped for, and crappy QB play all season long.

Yeah .... we would have won 9 or 10 games with Aaron Rodgers, and we would have won 7 with "just" a real, average, NFL caliber QB.

Quote:

[

As I've said before - put Aaron Rodgers on this years team. Keep the bad snaps on field goals the same, the blow ups on special teams the same - and we end up 5-11 or maybe 6-10.

That's a superstar, right?

Hell, a qb that has 2 starts in his life threw for how many yards playing for the packers?????????? He's a super star? You mean to tell me the packers go from super star Favre, to super star Rodgers, to super star Flynn...........and the surrounding cast gets no credit????????? Honestly?

Yes..The QB gets all the blame and credit. It has nothing to do with anything else. I think Rodgers goes 16-0 on this years Browns! Rogers hands off to Oby, Marecic plows the way for 20 yard chunks at a time! Rogers throws to Jordan Cameron! TD! Rodgers throws to Robiskie deep down the sideline with 10 yards separation...TD! On top of it he makes Pashos a Pro-Bowl alternate! If you substitute Flynn there is no doubt we are in the Super Bowl!

j/c

I've come to the conclusion that I'd be completely fine with us trading both of our 1sts and a 2nd to get Luck. I'd even be fine with a 3rd and 4th from this year as well.

For all we know those picks may be used by our regime to draft more studs like Veikune or Robiske, so I'd rather get the "sure" thing.

However, if we have to give up 1st or 2nd round picks from future drafts, I think the price becomes too high since it'll make it harder for us to surround Luck with talent.

Worst case scenario (as I see it), is we sit where we are and take RG3 if he is there, draft a deep threat WR with our other 1st rounder and go from there.

While RG3 is more risky than Luck (the same can be said for pretty much every QB prospect since Manning), I still think he'll be an All-Pro QB so I'm fine with either option.

Quote:

As I've said before - put Aaron Rodgers on this years team. Keep the bad snaps on field goals the same, the blow ups on special teams the same - and we end up 5-11 or maybe 6-10.

You make a change like that and you can't assume the bad snaps and special team blowups still occur. Everything changes.

Quote:

Quote:

As I've said before - put Aaron Rodgers on this years team. Keep the bad snaps on field goals the same, the blow ups on special teams the same - and we end up 5-11 or maybe 6-10.

You make a change like that and you can't assume the bad snaps and special team blowups still occur. Everything changes.

Stop trying to use logic as it relates to a discussion about the Browns draft...

Quote:

If we have Aaron Rodgers on this team we aren't relying on last second drives and FG tries against teams playing 1st time starters and washed up backups at QB.

I'm not saying that we would be a Super Bowl team this year. With an Aaron Rodgers instead of Colt McCoy, we would have won probably 9-10 games. We should have won 8 with McCoy. We played 4 teams using their backup QBs. 5 if you consider that the Steelers had to use Batch for part of our 1st game with them. We had about as easy a schedule as we could have hoped for, and crappy QB play all season long.

Yeah .... we would have won 9 or 10 games with Aaron Rodgers, and we would have won 7 with "just" a real, average, NFL caliber QB.

Get over it dude!!!! We won 4. Throw in a missed field goal due to a snap, we have 5 wins. Throw in a screwed up d against cincy, we have 6 wins. Throw in the screwed up special teams against (I forget who), we're at 7 wins.

You think Rodgers tackles, plays d, snaps?

Gees.

That's 7 wins without even talking about having NO running game. Without even talking about how many drives were killed by dropped passes. How many of those would've ended up in points?????? I don't know, and you don't either.

I get it - you hate Colt. I understand it, just as everyone here does. We get it.

I don't love Colt - but I do look at the TEAM - that seems to be something you can't do. You want to trade the plow horse for a new plow..........sorry bud, I ain't trading 3 first round picks for ANYONE.

YOU sit and polish your new plow after you put a hole in the horses head while the Browns are out working the new horses to pull their old plow.........you spend all your "money" (draft picks), while the Browns get their new horses trained and they can plow twice as much as they did before.

YOU sit the next year polishing your new plow while the Browns keep on getting newer plows because they have the money (picks).

You seem to think that no other QB could be better than McCoy.I get that. Just because you think so does not make it so.

With a different QB under Center the entire game changes completely. Situations that existed with McCoy playing no longer exist.

The Colts thought that they had the QB position well covered when Manning went down. They thought they had a team that would still compete for the playoffs, even without Manning. They didn't. They tried 3 different QBs, and finally #3 put a little life into the team.

I bet that, if Manning is able to come back healthy next year, that team returns to the playoffs. Yeah, the QB is that important.

What do you think would have happened with the Colts if they would have been able to have Aaron Rodgers start for them from day 1?

Quote:

What do you think would have happened with the Colts if they would have been able to have Aaron Rodgers start for them from day 1?

Well before I answer this hypothetical scenario, I'm going to state that for it to be accurate, we'll have to assume EVERYTHING would happen the same way, even though everything would be different...

So I would assume, with everything happening the same way, that then, everything would happen the same way...

Quote:

Hell, a qb that has 2 starts in his life threw for how many yards playing for the packers?????????? He's a super star? You mean to tell me the packers go from super star Favre, to super star Rodgers, to super star Flynn...........and the surrounding cast gets no credit????????? Honestly?

God, I hate it when arch is right

Quote:

Quote:

Hell, a qb that has 2 starts in his life threw for how many yards playing for the packers?????????? He's a super star? You mean to tell me the packers go from super star Favre, to super star Rodgers, to super star Flynn...........and the surrounding cast gets no credit????????? Honestly?

God, I hate it when arch is right

Yeah, One would think that should have been the dagger that killed this little spat.

Quote:

You seem to think that no other QB could be better than McCoy.I get that. Just because you think so does not make it so.

Never said that - so please stop making things up. Please. I did say we don't win many more games - but quit your b.s. dreaming/putting words in my mouth. If you can't discuss what I said, don't discuss.

Quote:

With a different QB under Center the entire game changes completely. Situations that existed with McCoy playing no longer exist.

I don't know about that, but okay.

Quote:

The Colts thought that they had the QB position well covered when Manning went down.

No they didn't. Where in the hell do you get that from? There isn't a person alive that follows football that believes that. Seriously, you aren't even grasping at straws with this statement, you're grasping at the semi barreling past you at 70 mph carrying the raw material that makes straws.

Quote:

They thought they had a team that would still compete for the playoffs, even without Manning. They didn't. They tried 3 different QBs, and finally #3 put a little life into the team.

There is no way in hell anyone thought this..........seriously, you follow football????????????? There is not a sole alive that thought, when they found out Manning was out for the season, that the team would compete for anything other than a few wins. Put the pipe down, or tone down your meds. You're speaking foolish here.

Honestly.

Quote:

I bet that, if Manning is able to come back healthy next year, that team returns to the playoffs. Yeah, the QB is that important.

I'll lay you money if Manning comes back they don't compete for the playoffs. PM if interested in that bet.

Quote:

What do you think would have happened with the Colts if they would have been able to have Aaron Rodgers start for them from day 1?

8-8.?

Totally different system. Totally different players.

Same thing - totally healthy Manning goes to the pack this year - might be 11-5. Totally different system, totally different players.

See, you seem to think the qb drives the team. I feel the qb (while a decent one is needed, no doubt), but I think experience plays a huge role - not just nfl experience - but rather experience in the team.

What did the all pro Palmer do in oakland this year?

What did Montana do when he played in kc (I honestly don't know - I might be spiting myself here - care to tell me what montana did - like I said, I honestly don't know)

No .... Aaron Rodgers ..... and exactly same players as the Colts have, except for the QB.

How many games do they win?

I bet they would have won 12-13 games. The team didn't change much from the playoff team of a year ago ..... except that they lost their QB.

So ...... with the exact same team, only adding Aaron Rodgers, how many games do you think that the Colts would have won? Do you think that they would have gone winless?

Quote:

Quote:

With a different QB under Center the entire game changes completely. Situations that existed with McCoy playing no longer exist.

I don't know about that, but okay.

You've obviously never had a conversation with Doc Brown on the intricacies of time travel and time lines...

Montana went 8-3 and then 9-5 with the KC Chiefs.

Of course, the Chiefs went 10-6 in both of the 2 seasons before Montana as well, so it wasn't all him ('91 team coached by Marty w/ Cowher at DC and Dungy/Edwards as assts).

the '93 team (first w/ Montana) featured Paul Hackett as OC and Mike McCarthy as an offensive asst.

and Montana NFL football 94 for Genesis featured a single game I played where Eric Metcalf accumulated over 2000 all-purpose yards.

Quote:

That's like saying "hey we don't HAVE to go draft LeBron James. After all, we can just get Luol Deng next year instead." He's a good player in his own right, but it's not even comparable.

The number one pick in 2003 was LeBron James, the number one pick in 2004 was Dwight Howard... not Lual Deng. So yea, I'd say it's a lot closer.

Quote:

Montana went 8-3 and then 9-5 with the KC Chiefs.

Of course, the Chiefs went 10-6 in both of the 2 seasons before Montana as well, so it wasn't all him ('91 team coached by Marty w/ Cowher at DC and Dungy/Edwards as assts).

the '93 team (first w/ Montana) featured Paul Hackett as OC and Mike McCarthy as an offensive asst.

Thanks for the info. It lends itself well to the conversation at hand, doesn't it. Apparently it's NOT all the qb.

Quote:

Quote:

Hell, a qb that has 2 starts in his life threw for how many yards playing for the packers?????????? He's a super star? You mean to tell me the packers go from super star Favre, to super star Rodgers, to super star Flynn...........and the surrounding cast gets no credit????????? Honestly?

God, I hate it when arch is right

God knows we both know it.

Quote:

I can't wait for the day when we have a legitimate superstar QB in this town. It has been so long since we have had one that people have forgotten just how much of an impact a legitimate superstar QB can have on a team.

Heck, even a good one like Bernie works for me.

JK
Lol good conversation. Bernie was good not elite. Elway was Elite as was Kelly and Marino (back end of his career then)
Sipe was not elite either. I have never ever seen an Elite QB here.

Now all that being said if Rodgers was here this year I would imagine that teams would have started pass alot more against us making our D look silly. As has been noted for the most part this year our D was not tested through the air and when it was I saw alot of troubles.
Its been a problem for a while they run us over and dont need to throw when we do stop the run they complete the 3rd and 20. Once they get down close our D really can shut them down but anywhere else on the field they eat us alive.

Houston make us look silly and were in doze mode for the whole 2nd half it felt.Its a chicken egg thing. While the D did good things they didnt hold leads when we had them which lead to last second FG's being important.
I would give us tops 3 wins with Rodgers as our QB given our talent level.

IF and I do mean IF Luck is the man that means we win (which a much tougher schedule this year) 7 wins next year. Thats a top 10 pick. So you think that picks 4-10-24-36-42 and perhaps more is worth 1 Player that has not played 1 single snap in the NFL? I say remember Ryan Leaf.

Quote:

IF and I do mean IF Luck is the man that means we win (which a much tougher schedule this year) 7 wins next year. Thats a top 10 pick. So you think that picks 4-10-24-36-42 and perhaps more is worth 1 Player that has not played 1 single snap in the NFL? I say remember Ryan Leaf.

To be fair ... Atlanta gave up 2 firsts, a second, and 2 fourths for a WIDE RECEIVER. Would I give up 3 firsts a second and a third? Maybe - I honestly don't know. But some people are acting like it is unheard of.

Look at the Eagles. They have 10 to 12 picks it seems like every year. They end up cutting a bunch of guys because once the roster is turned over you either cut picks in camp because you have too many bodies OR you cut them the next year when you draft more guys.

Picks are great and I was all for trading down and building depth. However, I think we now need a few gamechangers and taking a chance on an elite player might be worth it as long as we trust our scouts. Otherwise, why are they employed?

Quote:

Quote:

IF and I do mean IF Luck is the man that means we win (which a much tougher schedule this year) 7 wins next year. Thats a top 10 pick. So you think that picks 4-10-24-36-42 and perhaps more is worth 1 Player that has not played 1 single snap in the NFL? I say remember Ryan Leaf.

To be fair ... Atlanta gave up 2 firsts, a second, and 2 fourths for a WIDE RECEIVER. Would I give up 3 firsts a second and a third? Maybe - I honestly don't know. But some people are acting like it is unheard of.

Look at the Eagles. They have 10 to 12 picks it seems like every year. They end up cutting a bunch of guys because once the roster is turned over you either cut picks in camp because you have too many bodies OR you cut them the next year when you draft more guys.

Picks are great and I was all for trading down and building depth. However, I think we now need a few gamechangers and taking a chance on an elite player might be worth it as long as we trust our scouts. Otherwise, why are they employed?

The Falcons did that because they felt they were 1 player away from the Super Bowl, can anyone say that about us?

Quote:

What kind of record would the Steelers have this year without Roethlisberger?

4-12? Maybe 5-11? Their OL was beyond flat out awful. When Roethlisberger sat, the offense stalled.

What would the Colts have looked like without Mann ......

Oh never mind.

How about a playoff contender like Da Bears? Surely they could survive the loss of their QB .......

Maybe a rookie QB could improve a team like Carolina or Cincinnati? That might happen.

And how did the Browns do when their starting QB went down? Oh yeah, that's right! They went 0-3!

We could play games all day long, but I think most of the team problems on offense had to do with the coaching and receivers dropping balls.

Furthermore, in those 4 wins, McCoy engineered game winning drives in 3 of them (Miami, Seattle, Jacksonville), including a 4th quarter comeback (Miami).

On teams within our division, Flacco produced 3 game-winning drives including two 4Q comebacks. Dalton had 4 game-winning drives, all four 4Q comebacks. Roethlisberger created a single game-winning drive and it was a 4Q comeback against Indy in Week 3.

A number of 'fans' here called for Seneca Wallace to replace McCoy, even prior to his injury, and Wallace has a career record as a starter of (brace for it!) .... 6 wins, 15 losses over 9 seasons with the same (or similar schemes). To be fair, McCoy has 6 wins & 15 losses but over 2 seasons with two different schemes and two different head coaches.

We got 2 firsts from Atlanta? Or, we got one first, a second, and a fourth? After all, we got their first for out first - that's basically a wash. Then we got their next year first, plus a second (last year?) plus a fourth.

It's not like we gave them our first, and they gave us 2 more firsts - we swapped firsts, got an extra one, plus a second and 4th.

Am I wrong?

Quote:

Quote:

IF and I do mean IF Luck is the man that means we win (which a much tougher schedule this year) 7 wins next year. Thats a top 10 pick. So you think that picks 4-10-24-36-42 and perhaps more is worth 1 Player that has not played 1 single snap in the NFL? I say remember Ryan Leaf.

To be fair ... Atlanta gave up 2 firsts, a second, and 2 fourths for a WIDE RECEIVER. Would I give up 3 firsts a second and a third? Maybe - I honestly don't know. But some people are acting like it is unheard of.

Look at the Eagles. They have 10 to 12 picks it seems like every year. They end up cutting a bunch of guys because once the roster is turned over you either cut picks in camp because you have too many bodies OR you cut them the next year when you draft more guys.

Picks are great and I was all for trading down and building depth. However, I think we now need a few gamechangers and taking a chance on an elite player might be worth it as long as we trust our scouts. Otherwise, why are they employed?

According to the draft value chart their picks were worth:

27th - 680
59th - 310
124th - 48
This year we'll guess a bit
22nd - 780
118th - 58

Total 1876
for the 6th spot last year at 1600

Certainly a good deal for us as we're + 276

To move up to 1st to get Luck you're proposing:

4th - 1800
22nd - 780 (making same position assumption as Atlanta assumpition)
36th - 540
68th - 250
16th - 1000 (assuming the middle of the 1st as we do better next year)
Total - 4370
For pick #1 at 3000

We lose by 1370.

Thanks but not in this lifetime.

Quote:

You think that Luck is under the micro scope now ... then wait and see how much more that becomes focused on if there is a mega trade for his services.

That's why the best thing that could happen to Luck if for him to go to indy, sit behind Manning for a year or two and learn.. There is virtually NO Pressure to that for him..

Quote:

To be fair ... Atlanta gave up 2 firsts, a second, and 2 fourths for a WIDE RECEIVER. Would I give up 3 firsts a second and a third? Maybe - I honestly don't know. But some people are acting like it is unheard of.

And to be fair, Atlanta had to move up several spots, not 3.

Quote:

We got 2 firsts from Atlanta? Or, we got one first, a second, and a fourth? After all, we got their first for out first - that's basically a wash. Then we got their next year first, plus a second (last year?) plus a fourth.

It's not like we gave them our first, and they gave us 2 more firsts - we swapped firsts, got an extra one, plus a second and 4th.

Am I wrong?

Yes.

You are wrong. I said exactly what I said. Atlanta gave up those picks to draft Julio. They gave up a pair of firsts, a second, and a fourth and overall they walked away with one player.

They didn't "net" a pick ... I mean you could say that they did but they then turned around and spent it on him. So yes, they traded 2 firsts, a second and a third for a single wide receiver.

With that in perspective, trading 3 firsts and a second for a franchise quarterback (or the for the pick that we use to select a franchise QB) isn't so bad.

You can't go by the draft value chart from year to year.

Aside from the fact that any pick this year isn't worth the same next year (same thing as time value of money and inflation) ... you also can't assume where we will be picking.

However - just to be fair - I have never been a believer in the draft chart. I also don't understand why so many of you guys look at something that ESPN found that one organization used ... what was it ... two decades ago? And it also doesn't include the premium for different positions and classes as well as the new rookie scale.

But anyways ... you could look at it in multiple ways where the draft chart doesn't make sense and could also find a decent amount of examples where you care more about getting a certain player than about staying true to some arbitrary slotting system of numbers.

If you have a more rational way to value picks, I'm open to hear it.

Quote:

For all we know those picks may be used by our regime to draft more studs like Veikune or Robiske, so I'd rather get the "sure" thing.

Joker, C'mon man. That was not our current Regime. I had to stop reading thte rest of your post after that.

Quote:

The Falcons did that because they felt they were 1 player away from the Super Bowl, can anyone say that about us?

Some seem to think so.

I think that the more rational way is by taking complete evalutions of players in any given year and then slotting them based upon a team's rank. Include as many tangibles and intangibles as possible. Then value the pick itself based upon what it can net you in a given year.

The reason why it doesn't work is because it isn't an "easy" way to make a trade.

I doubt that hardly any (if any at all) use a chart just like this one just because of different philosophies within organizations. You also have to consider the fact that some teams might "inflate" or "deflate" a draft class in a given year depending on the makeup of their team (think Jerry Jones a year or two ago when he basically traded out of the draft entirely). Maybe an older team with a bunch of young veterans doesn't need as much depth so they deflate the value of later rounders because those guys won't make the team versus a team like us who levels it off because 3 or 4 picks in round 6 or 7 means a guy that could pan out plus a few special teamers.

Plus, aside from all of that, how does the first pick overall equal the first pick in any other year?

Is Sam Bradford (supposedly) the same value as Jake Long was? Does Andrew Luck equal the same potential value as Alex Smith? When a prospect has less questions then he is worth more. When he plays the more covetous position, he is worth more. No way does a first round RB ... no matter how good ... equal the same "point value" as a top 10 potential QB.

Finally ... we have even talked about it in the threads, this sort of chart assumes that there is an almost constant decrease in value. I can't accept that. This year some have said the dropoff in this class from potential elite prospects ends at about 5 or 6. But according to the chart we would assume that the drop from 4 to 5 is the same as the drop from 5 to 6.... even though it doesn't make sense.

So while I understand that the draft chart is used as a tool, I question not only it's validity in practice but also whether or not any single chart from (was it the early 90's chart that is commonly referenced?) two decades ago is A. the same, B. Not updated annually, and C. not numbered differently to different teams depending upon their makeup.

In short: The draft chart is a cute reference, but I doubt that every GM has a copy of that sitting in their war room ...

However - just my opinion on the matter

But that leaves you wide open to pick based on perceptions and emotions that while I agree does happen in the NFL really has no place in business and this is after all, just a business. I think it's used more as a baseline, a jumping off point that allows some variance but not the likes we're talking about with 3 1sts and a 2nd for one guy. Now certainly a Jones or a Davis might make such a leap as rational decisions were never the norm for those guys but it's the exception. That's just my opinion though.

Quote:

Quote:

To be fair ... Atlanta gave up 2 firsts, a second, and 2 fourths for a WIDE RECEIVER. Would I give up 3 firsts a second and a third? Maybe - I honestly don't know. But some people are acting like it is unheard of.

And to be fair, Atlanta had to move up several spots, not 3.

This is the Key Atlanta gave us what the 26th pick in the first round plus now probalby the 24-27th pick in the first round and equally lower picks in the 4th round.

We are talking about the 4th pick in this draft the 24-27 pick in this draft most likely the 10th pick in next years draft plus extras to move up 3 COUNT EM 3 SPOTS???
Im sorry I want no part of that. If Im picking 26th and think I need 1 key guy then yeah look over the choice some are talking about.
#1> (4--24-36-this year and 10-42 next year)

I'm with YTown, Dayton, and PStu24....If you can get Luck, pay the price. I'm OK giving up 2 extra firsts although as some other posters mentioned, would be much more comfortable with just this years draft.

I'm done experimenting with these half-talent QBs who can't challenge defenses like Pitts or Baltimore with their noodle arms.

I wouldn't trade up for Griffin at this point, but would hope he falls if we can't get Luck

everyone was okay giving up next year's first for Brady Quinn too... until he didnt pan out to be the "Golden Boy".... then everyone bashed the decision to do it.

Don't give up all that for ONE guy.

I was fine with it then and I'm fine with it now....Unfortunately, they made the wrong call. I'd also hardly compare Quinn and Luck

Quote:

I was fine with it then and I'm fine with it now....Unfortunately, they made the wrong call. I'd also hardly compare Quinn and Luck

Funny thing is I didnt really like the trade but was fine with it as well but who did dallas draft with our pick the next year ( I really dont remember)? We got hillis for Quinn so we made out on that end which is the only reason im still fine with it.
Quinn showed some flashes but with our team it was never meant to be here and another 1st RD QB went down in flames.

Felix Jones.

Quote:

I was fine with it then and I'm fine with it now....Unfortunately, they made the wrong call. I'd also hardly compare Quinn and Luck

Well there were plenty of people touting him just the same. He was the next Great QB according to some and you were an idiot and clueless if you didn't believe them and publicly scorned and ridiculed. Pro system, pro ready with Charlie Weiss thumbs up to Romeo Crennel.

I guess you could compare Luck and Quinn in that sense. That Harbaugh (Lucks college Coach) went to SF and made Alex Smith look decent after so long being labled a bust. Weiss made Quinn look decent and came out and busted as did Clausen. Not Only that but they wanted to use our first pick on him..Thank God these QB Guru Posters don't run the draft or we would have No JT!!

Just saying.

It's not so much about emoitions ... it's about selection methods.

You need to see individuals as what they are ... individuals. Even if you could find a rating system for every player, they will not be the same player in different scenarios and systems. Andrew Luck going to the Colts will have a much different career path and story than any other team.

You also need to remember that it's not so much "perceptions/emotions" as it is first coming up with your own scouting standards (and every team values different scouts as well as types of players). They all have their own grading sheets and methods. They all have their own tendencies for trading and value placed upon different picks.

So why do we assume that a first round pick X = 2nd rounder Y + third rounder Z for any two teams in the same way, let alone all 32. And that also would only be a "starting" point and not just the overall accepted value. After all, what team makes a trade for "equal" value?

My point isn't that you are wrong, it's that there is no way to "dumb it up." Some guys spend entire careers on talent evaluations and understanding the draft. I have the feeling that those who simplify it and turn it into a science are going to fail. Those who only go on their gut will fail. But it is a combination of laying the framework and having your principles ... and THEN understanding that a grading number or a point value can't tell you what your eyeballs can.

That's why I think the draft chart is a joke.

Now mind you, I'm not advocating taking any QB... I haven't even made up my mind yet and I am back and forth every day.

BUT for someone to tell me that we CAN'T trade a few picks just because the value isn't right ... let me simplify it for you. What are you willing to do in order to bring the franchise QB into your team whether it be Luck or Griffin?

And as a caveat ... if our talent evaluators and scouts don't feel comfortable then we don't do it. But if THEY think that Luck or Griffin are the real guys and we PASS on them...? Then why? We need to trust the scouts. That's why we have them.

If we draft Griffin and he gets hit in the eye with a flag and never plays again ... or we draft Luck and he goes Ricky Williams ... nothing we can do about it. But I would much rather act upon trust of the scouting department and try to get a real franchise QB IF THEY SAY that one of those guys are one and maybe even overpay a little ... then say "well we passed up on a guy who we are confident will be a hall of fame quarterback ... but at least we saved a few points on an arbitrary draft value chart that is twenty years outdated..."

But that's not entirely fair. It's not the decision, it's the pick they were mad at or rather the outcome.

Just like Gini's trade's weren't bad if we would have hit on them.

If we would have traded up and a first rounder next year into the early / mid 20's and the guy would have been Freeman or Rodgers then it would have been a great deal.

Blame the talent (or lack of) in the front office ... not the move to try and secure a franchise QB.

Quote:

Felix Jones.

Thanks for that. Just looked him up and I guess we really didnt get fleeced that bad but Dallas made a bad pick there as well,considering Mendenhall and C Johnson went right after him.Dallas drafted Mike Jenkins after those 2 wonder how they would have looked in a Browns uniform.
So we can assume that with a late 1st round pick there are some decent players to be had, just need to find them. :-)

Quote:

Quote:

Felix Jones.

Thanks for that. Just looked him up and I guess we really didnt get fleeced that bad but Dallas made a bad pick there as well,considering Mendenhall and C Johnson went right after him.Dallas drafted Mike Jenkins after those 2 wonder how they would have looked in a Browns uniform.
So we can assume that with a late 1st round pick there are some decent players to be had, just need to find them. :-)

Or you could have had Ray Rice or Desean Jackson in the next round.

Quote:

But that's not entirely fair. It's not the decision, it's the pick they were mad at or rather the outcome.

Just like Gini's trade's weren't bad if we would have hit on them.

If we would have traded up and a first rounder next year into the early / mid 20's and the guy would have been Freeman or Rodgers then it would have been a great deal.

Blame the talent (or lack of) in the front office ... not the move to try and secure a franchise QB.

Very true alot were ready killing Mangini for letting sanchez go but in hind sight it may have been the right move. Now he didnt do anything with the picks sadly but he was correct in passing but when MS was going to AFC championship games alot of people were all over we missed our Frachise QB.

So with the falcons loss and broncos win... Where do we pick now?

Browns have now secured the #22 spot thanks to the Giants win over the Falcons.

#4.
#22.

Gonna be a fun draft day.

Quote:

So with the falcons loss and broncos win... Where do we pick now?

According to Tony Grossi (tweet) we will pick 23rd. According to everyone else including Nate Ulrich we will pick 22nd. Either way the Broncos helped us and knocked off the Steelers.

Quote:

Quote:

But that's not entirely fair. It's not the decision, it's the pick they were mad at or rather the outcome.

Just like Gini's trade's weren't bad if we would have hit on them.

If we would have traded up and a first rounder next year into the early / mid 20's and the guy would have been Freeman or Rodgers then it would have been a great deal.

Blame the talent (or lack of) in the front office ... not the move to try and secure a franchise QB.

Very true alot were ready killing Mangini for letting sanchez go but in hind sight it may have been the right move. Now he didnt do anything with the picks sadly but he was correct in passing but when MS was going to AFC championship games alot of people were all over we missed our Frachise QB.

I was never a Sanchez fan, and never had a problem with letting someone else take him.

What I did and do have a problem with was what we let the pick go for.

We had the #5 pick in the draft, and moved down to #21. What did we get for it? Mack, who was the pick itself ... David Veikune, James Davis, Coye Francis, Kenyon Coleman, Brett Ratliff and Abe Elam.

We gave the the #5 for a second rounder and some peanuts, and slid down further twice, both times for a sixth round pick. We essentially went from 5 to 21 for a second, two sixths, a third string QB, an aging veteran DL and an average-at-best FS.

I've never been more angry with any Browns management than with the draft. Those moves makes Butch's draft idiocy seem sensible.

Quote:

Browns have now secured the #22 spot thanks to the Giants win over the Falcons.

#4.
#22.

and Denver beating the Steelers...if the Steelers won they would have picked 23rd

Quote:

Browns have now secured the #22 spot thanks to the Giants win over the Falcons.

#4.
#22.

Gonna be a fun draft day.

Is the 4th round set for us?

And do we know where Cinci drafts in the first?

Cinci has 17 and 21

here's the updated draft slots

Pick Team
1 Indianapolis
2 St. Louis
3 Minnesota
4 Cleveland
5 Tampa Bay
6 Washington
7 Jacksonville
8 Carolina
9 Miami
10 Buffalo
11 Seattle
12 Kansas City
13 Dallas
14 Arizona
15 Philadelphia
16 NY Jets
17 Cincinnati (from Oakland)
18 San Diego
19 Chicago
20 Tennessee
21 Cincinnati
22 Cleveland (from Atlanta)
23 Detroit
24 Pittsburgh

Hah, I think you guys got it. Guess I can't get some work done on a Sunday night or else I end up asleep at the wheel updating this

. Anyway, we're #4 and #22 after tonights games. Spots 1-24 are now locked in (minus the two coin flips).

Do we pick 4th in each round? Or does that pick flip-flop by round due to record? Or does that flip-flop occur ONLY when there is a coin flip to decide the 1st round draft order?

Quote:

Quote:

For all we know those picks may be used by our regime to draft more studs like Veikune or Robiske, so I'd rather get the "sure" thing.

Joker, C'mon man. That was not our current Regime. I had to stop reading thte rest of your post after that.

I didn't mean to imply that our current regime was the one that drafted them. The point I was trying to get across is that the 2nd round picks everyone seems to worry about giving up don't always turn out great.

So re-wording it, I guess I should have said, I'd rather take a chance on Luck being the real deal rather than hold onto 2nd round picks in the off-chance we'll get a stud (like LeSean McCoy) instead of a bum (like Robiskie).

This is of course implying that the price of moving up to get Luck would be our 2 1sts and a 2nd, which I have no idea if it will get it done or not.

Quote:

Do we pick 4th in each round? Or does that pick flip-flop by round due to record? Or does that flip-flop occur ONLY when there is a coin flip to decide the 1st round draft order?

This. I have no idea where we pick from rounds 3 on . . .

Quote:

Quote:

Do we pick 4th in each round? Or does that pick flip-flop by round due to record? Or does that flip-flop occur ONLY when there is a coin flip to decide the 1st round draft order?

This. I have no idea where we pick from rounds 3 on . . .

Until the compensatory picks are awarded, but to answer the fist question.

Yes we do rotate our picks with the TB. (Oops I though the Redkins)

Quote:

Do we pick 4th in each round? Or does that pick flip-flop by round due to record? Or does that flip-flop occur ONLY when there is a coin flip to decide the 1st round draft order?

Teams with identical records (except playoff teams...unless two teams with identical records lose in the same round of the playoffs) flip-flop their draft positions every other round. Of course compensatory picks for lost Free Agents are added at the END of each draft round...so the exact #s can not be determined until then...but without compensatory picks Rounds 2 and 3 will look like the following:

Round 2:
33. St Louis Rams
34. Indianapolis Colts
35. Minnesota Vikings
36. Tampa Bay Buccaneers
37. Cleveland Browns
38. Jacksonville Jaguars
39. Washington Redskins
40. Buffalo Bills
41. Miami Dolphins (coin flip 1)
42. Carolina Panthers (coin flip 1)
43. Seattle Seahawks (coin flip 2)
44. Kansas City Chiefs (coin flip 2)
45. Chicago Bears
46. San Diego Chargers
47. New England Patriots (from Oakland)
48. New York Jets
49. Philadelphia Eagles
50. Dallas Cowboys
51. Philadelphia Eagles (from Arizona)
52. Tennessee Titans
53. Cincinnati Bengals
54. Detroit Lions
55. Atlanta Falcons
56. Pittsburgh Steelers
57-64 depends on playoffs.

Round 3:
65. Indianapolis Colts
66. St. Louis Rams
67. Minnesota Vikings
68. Cleveland Browns
69. Tampa Bay Buccaneers
70. Washington Redskins
71. Jacksonville Jaguars
72. Chicago Bears (from Carolina) (coin flip 1)
73. Miami Dolphins (coin flip 1)
74. Buffalo Bills
75. Kansas City Chiefs (coin flip 2)
76. Seattle Seahawks (coin flip 2)
77. Arizona Cardinals
78. Dallas Cowboys
79. Philadelphia Eagles
80. New York Jets
81. Oakland Raiders
82. San Diego Chargers
83. Chicago Bears
84. Tennessee Titans
85. Cincinnati Bengals
86. Atlanta Falcons
87. Detroit Lions
88. Pittsburgh Steelers
89-96 depends on playoffs.

So our top 3 round picks are looking like #4, #22 (both locked) and then #37 and #68 depending on compensatory picks.

Compensatory picks are only added on to the end of rounds 3-7. So the first three rounds should look like that.

Yeah you're right. I thought I remembered comp picks being rounds 2-7 but indeed it's 3-7.

So yeah the order I put up there for the first 3 rounds should be completely correct.

Just to remind people my research shows that this is what we have to look forward to (exclusive of Compensatory picks)

http://www.draftinsiders.com/node/35

NFL Draft Traded Picks
.Updated - Oct 20, 2011

NFL Trading Period opened August 4 thru Oct. 18, 2011 - 4pm est
NFL Trade Free Agency Period opened August 5, 2011
Period opened after new Collective bargaining agreement that expired March 3, 2011. Free Agency period usually goes March thru mid July.

NFL Draft 2012 Traded Picks

1st Round
Cleveland from Atlanta (2011 draft trade)
New England from New Orleans (2011 draft trade)
Cincinnati from Oakland (QB Carson Palmer)

2nd Round
New England from Oakland (2011 draft trade)
Philadelphia #2 from Arizona (QB Kevin Kolb)

3rd Round
Chicago from Carolina (TE Greg Olsen)
Raiders surrender pick for QB Terrelle Pryor (Supplemental 2011 NFL Draft)

4th Round
Washington from Oakland (QB Jason Campbell)
Cleveland from Atlanta (2011 draft trade)
Philadelphia from Tampa Bay (2011 draft trade)
Buffalo from Baltimore (WR Lee Evans)

5th Round
Cincinnati from New England (WR Chad Ochocinco)

6th Round
Cleveland from Denver (QB Brady Quinn)
Philadelphia from New England (LB Tracy White)
Washington from Minnesota (QB Donovan McNabb)
New Orleans - conditional pick from Washington (OT Jammal Brown if he plays in 90% of the their offensive plays in 2011 or gets voted to the Pro Bowl.)
Denver from St Louis (WR Brandon Lloyd) Pick could escalate to a #5 pick with higher production.

7th Round
Minnesota from Cleveland (DE Jayme Mitchell)
Kansas City from New England (S Jarrad Page)
New England from Philadelphia (LB Tracy White trade)
Minnesota from New England (WR Randy Moss trade)
St. Louis – conditional pick from Cleveland (OL John Greco - if he starts one game in 2011)
Seattle from Oakland (LB Aaron Curry)
NY Jets from Houston (WR Derrick Mason)

Conditional Selections
Minnesota has a conditional pick from NY Giants (QB Sage Rosenfels playing time)
Buffalo has a conditional pick from Seattle (RB Marshawn Lynch)
Detroit has a conditional late-round pick from Seattle (OT Tyler Polumbus)
Detroit will forfeit a 2012 draft pick for tampering (#6 if the Lions make the playoffs or a #7 if they don’t)
New Orleans has an undisclosed pick from Miami (RB Reggie Bush)
New Orleans from Miami (RB Reggie Bush)
Green Bay from NY Jets (OG Caleb Schauderlaff)
Green Bay from Tennessee (FB Quinn Johnson)
NY Jets from Jacksonville (S Dwight Lowery)

OK.. So lets see here now...

WE have:

Round One: 2 picks ours and Atlanta's first round pick (draft trade)

Round Two: 1 pick ours

Round Three: 1 pick ours

Round Four: 2 picks ours and Atlanta's 4th round pick (draft trade)

Round Five: 1 pick ours

Round Six: 2 picks ours and Denvers 6th round pick (Brady Quinn)

Round Seven: Maybe one pick.. One pick traded to Minnesota (Jayme Mitchell) and the other pick traded to St Louis IF Greco starts a game with Cleveland which he hasn't yet.. otherwise No picks..

LATE NOTE: Greco did NOT start a game this year so we do NOT owe STL a 7th rounder. Please amend the 7th Round as: 1 pick ours

I'm confused... how did we conditionally trade away our 7th rounder twice, and how do we still have one left? What would have happened had Greco started a game for us?

Fair question... my understanding is that we had two 7th rounders. We traded one of them for Jayme Mitchell straight up and the other 7th rounder was a conditional if Greco starts ONE game for the Browns. Since Greco did NOT start a game we owe STL nothing.

No, we didn't have 2 7ths and still don't have one (maybe we get a comp pick late)....the Greco pick would have been automatically a 6th since we ran out of 7ths....it was a conditional 7th...so you can trade it away without having one...I guess we were (ehm "make") sure that Greco would not start a game

Hmmph. After much re-reading I'm confuzzled too LOL..

Leave it at this: maybe we have one, maybe not. We'll see about compensatory picks.

As far as I see it we traded our 7th away for Mitchel...not sure where we had a second 7th, so...as far as I understand we don't have a 7th this draft unless we get awarded a comp pick (even if we don't qualify, we have a good chance since we pick in the top 5 and comp picks have to be 32 or so and if not enough get awareded they get filled from the top of the draft order...that's how we got Hagg last draft)

It is also my understanding that we do NOT have a 7th round pick this year.

Rd 1 - 2 picks
Rd 2 - 1 pick
Rd 3 - 1 pick
Rd 4 - 2 picks
Rd 5 - 1 pick
Rd 6 - 2 picks
Rd 7 - 0 picks

pending compensatory picks.

man I love that we have 9 picks in this draft!

New Oakland GM is going to be really bored....no picks in the first 4 rounds and not much to show for it

They used 3 of those 4 picks on different QBs too (Palmer - 1st, Pryor - 3rd, Campbell - 4th). That's kinda nuts.

Campbell and Pryor were the work of Davis who was a nut. Palmer was obviously Jackson, who is also a nut.

Quote:

Campbell and Pryor were the work of Davis who was a nut. Palmer was obviously Jackson, who is also a nut.

Palmer was the worst of them all....the guy doesn't care and is washed up, a pretty bad combination. Throw in how much they paid to get him.....wow. For the sake of their fans, I'm glad they got a real GM in there now

Oakland, the only organization that could make Mike Brown look smart.

I agree that Palmer is washed up, but I think he does care. He just didn't care about playing for the Bengals.

Either way it was an idiotic trade.