Widely considered the best WR coming out this year...
at 6'1 many of us dont like his size... but at his ability many like him to be a great wideout.
I lean with the 2nd group.
We have a pretty solid WR in Greg Little with size and YAC ability if he can learn to catch with his hands on slant routes instead of his body...and Blackmon seems to be a hands catcher through and through.
Is he worth our pick at #4 if he's there? Will he be there? Discuss...i say we pray for him to fall and then take him and give Colt another weapon.
Widely considered the best WR coming out this year...
at 6'1 many of us dont like his size... but at his ability many like him to be a great wideout.
I lean with the 2nd group.
We have a pretty solid WR in Greg Little with size and YAC ability if he can learn to catch with his hands on slant routes instead of his body...and Blackmon seems to be a hands catcher through and through.
Is he worth our pick at #4 if he's there? Will he be there? Discuss...i say we pray for him to fall and then take him and give Colt another weapon.
he sure was exciting to watch the other night,, that's for sure. But I thought that one of the problems with him was attitude and hands.. have I got that wrong?
my plan for fixing the Browns offense definitely includes Blackmon
1. Hire Clements (GB-QB coach) as OC 2. Sign Flynn 3. Draft Blackmon and L.Miller and (Z.Sanders or Adcock) 4. Find a slot WR and RG in FA or draft. 5. Score a lot of points in 2012.
I guess this goes for a lot of players, but I think how he does at the combines will determine where he gets drafted. Doubts about his size could be dispelled and help cement him as a viable top 5 selection.
I was just so impressed with how physical he was in his Bowl game. He looked like a man among boys yesterday. And he was far from 100% healthwise.
Two back:back years as the top collegiate WR votings is pretty special.
hands? have not seen that in games nor in print. if someone wrote it, then stop reading them. the guy just catches everything and adjusts to deep balls as well as anyone I have seen in a long time.
attitude? he has a DUI and got suspended a game for it, but outside of that I haven't seen much. He's a WR, so I assume he has some
will he drop? depends on if someone is willing to pay StL enough for RGIII. if yes, then he likely will fall to us at #4 (I think Minny goes Kalil). if no, then StL will likely take him at #2.
He was animated on the sidelines. I don't have a huge problem with that, as long as you curb it. The dude can play though. Reminds me a little of Terrell Owens, and he can take that thing and just burn. Huge 4th down clutch play that kept them in the game. I think 4 might be a little high especially when you consider how deep this draft is at WR, and I don't think he's quite as good as AJ Green is, and definitely not as valuable a prospect.
Loved watching him for the past few years. A lock to be a Pro-Bowl WR a few years down the road.
The Browns could use those type of guys at every position. For me I'd rather get a top flight FA WR like Vincent Jackson than use this pick on one. We're really young as a position group there and I'd personally rather get a guy who can lead that group than draft one.
I'd rather spend valuable draft picks on the correct QB/RDE/CB/WLB than burn one on a young WR.
If we draft him I'm all for it though and will be happy. I love me some Blackmon.
To me its his short quickness I don't like... Looks to be slow to me when I watch him run. And it seems like he just out muscles alot of these college athletes. He won't do that in the nfl against top cornerbacks. To me, with his character concerns and the percieved lack of short burst... that makes me not want him at 4. Maybe 10-20. But not a top 10 pro prospect IMO.
Very talented kid with great run after catch potential. It is hard to say what the plan is at this point. I like Claiborne better but the kid has skill.
1.) Drops - He drops a lot of balls, in Braylon-esque ways. For some reason this happens the most when the ball hits him straight in the hands at a full run - not sure the reason for it - but in the WCO you need receivers with great hands.
2.) Run Blocking - The next time Blackmon decides to run block will probably be the first. He also doesn't block on screens, and OK State never allows him on the side of a screen pass (as a #1 receiver that isn't too common anyway, but they do it 0 times).
3.) Attitude - He slacks a lot when he knows he isn't being targeted, doesn't run routes - also you can see an attitude if he's not being targeted early (watch Texas A&M).
That said he's immensely talented (though not in the class of the receivers who tend to go top 5). But he definitely has his faults -- I see Kalil/Claiborne/Luck/Richardson are the only truly elite talents in this class.
The only problems I have with taking a WR that high are .....
1) I feel that we have a far more pressing and desperate need at QB, and if there is a player there that can fill that need we must figure out a way to get him.
2) This seems like a pretty deep draft for really good WRs. I think we can get a really high end WR with our second 1st round pick, or even our 2nd or 3rd rounders.
3) WR seems like a position that the really great teams handle in the 2nd-3rd rounds. I look at Pittsburgh, New England, New Orleans, Green Bay, Houston, Detroit, Giants, Chargers, Cowboys, Dallas and Atlanta ...... and I think that there are maybe 7or so first round picks on all of those really strong passing teams combined. (Off the top of my head, Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, Roddy White, and Hakeen Nicks, and Robert Meachum, who I forgot about at first, because he doesn't start for the Saints) Anyone I am forgetting? I just don't see teams building around the WR position in the first round. Not the great teams anyway. A few great teams have a great first round wide receiver ...... but those teams have a great QB too.
If I am not terribly mistaken, San Francisco has 2 starters who were first round picks in Ginn and Crabtree. (and they just dumped former first round pick Braylon Edwards) They are one of the bottom teams in the league as far as passing.
WR seems to me to be the position you go after high in the draft only after you have the rest of your team put together. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, you just don't find many WRs carrying their team to a Super Bowl win.
He's a diva, he's been arrested, he drops too many passes along the sideline, he isn't very fast, he isn't very explosive, and he isn't very tall. He will be a good, but not great player in the NFL.
Quote: hands? have not seen that in games nor in print. if someone wrote it, then stop reading them. the guy just catches everything and adjusts to deep balls as well as anyone I have seen in a long time.
attitude? he has a DUI and got suspended a game for it, but outside of that I haven't seen much. He's a WR, so I assume he has some
will he drop? depends on if someone is willing to pay StL enough for RGIII. if yes, then he likely will fall to us at #4 (I think Minny goes Kalil). if no, then StL will likely take him at #2.
Sorry,, I should have been clearer. first, I know very little about him. In fact, last night was the first time I actually watched him play and I was impressed.
But someone started a thread on him in the draft forum and there are lots and lots of negatives as well as lots and lots of positives..
I should have pointed out that my comments were a result of reading that thread.., sorry for the confusion
Those are the four most important positions on a football team. The debate among the rest of the positions and their relative value will continue on. But those 4? Those are etched in stone in that order.
You have to have a skilled QB to be a team with lasting success in today's NFL. Not debatable.
You have to give that QB competant blind side protection. If you don't you will get your QB injured or you will have to adjust your scheme significantly to provide that protection.
You have to be able to get to the opposing QB to have success defending the pass. The most impactful place to get that pressure is from the blind side.
Finally you have to be able to take away an opposing QB best weapon. If you can't with one player then you have to do it schematically with double teams or other measures.
-----------------------------------------------
Off that soapbox...
The most important things to do this off season is to solve the QB and RDE positions. WR while nice and impactful will not have the impact that solving those two positions will.
I would counter that Blackmon has far more raw speed than Boldin. You're really going to be surprised when Blackmon runs a 4.4 aren't you.
The last statement I'll make on Blackmon is that he has that BEAST MODE that few players at the WR position have.
That 4th down in the 4th quarter is a perfect example of it. He runs a slant, totally shielding the defender. Then treats him like a rag doll when he tries to tackle him. GET OFF ME! BAM!
Loved it. That was quintessentially Blackmon right there. One of the best WRs I've seen play college football in my 30 years of following the game.
Quote: Looks to be slow to me when I watch him run. And it seems like he just out muscles alot of these college athletes. He won't do that in the nfl against top cornerbacks.
Really???
This kid is a "Man-Child"...Much like that POS that played for the Cavaliers...
I'm not huge on 6'1" WR's as high as 4 in any draft...But this kid is a PLAYMAKER that has a physical ability that will only get better to go up against ANY Corner in this league...
Blackmon is Michael Irvin all over again...
Not every #1 in this league needs to be 6'4"+...We already have a guy that u can LOB it for in the endzone...And he's damn near as "BAAAD" as Blackmon...U know his name..
Blackmon will be a STUD wherever he goes...And THAT is damn well worth a 4 pick...
I said this a couple weeks ago when the Browns were slated to pick around 7th: "If Blackmon is there when the Browns pick, you thank whatever deity you believe in and turn in the card." Now that we're picking 4th, we definitely have more options. But if we end up picking Blackmon, I will be perfectly fine with that.
I've watched a handful of OSU games the last 2 years, mainly to focus on Blackmon. Everytime, I walk away impressed with the kid.
He might not run the fastest 40 time, but he passes the eye test for flat out speed. I'm not sure how you can say he's not explosive...he can jump out of the gym, and looks very quick getting in-and-out of his routes. One of his best moves is coming out slow off the line, then hitting the boosters and blowing by the CB. I remember him blowing by Prince Amukamara (4.43 forty) on one of these. He's an excellent route runner, which I think is often overlooked. Good route running creates more separation than flat-out speed. He is outstanding at using his big body on passes over the middle and on deep balls.
If you want to know if someone has good hands, just watch their hand placement as they catch the ball, especially on slants. If they let the ball get into their body or jump unnecessarily to catch the ball (as much as I like Cribbs, he does this alot, and I've seen it from Little alot this year too), they don't have good hands, and they aren't what I like to call a "natural pass-catcher." Blackmon makes a living on slants, and he is a natural pass-catcher.
Lyuokdea - coming from someone who played WR - catching a slant running at full speed is probably the easiest pass to drop. The QB has to rifle it in, you have such little time to react, and you have LBs and safeties waiting to pop you. Blackmon makes a living on the slant (a route the all the current Browns relievers are all horrible at), so it's not surprising that he's dropped a few. When I watch him, I don't see a body-catcher ala Quincy Morgan.
Not sure how some of you can list attitude as a concern, and then say you rate Floyd higher. Floyd is also very talented, but he is a total headcase. Look no further than the recent bowl game.
Also not sure why you want to compare him to AJ, because they are totally different WRs. Green = Moss, while Blackmon is kind of like Boldin and Brandon Marshall, but I think he is more explosive and a much better route-runner. But if you really want to go there:
AJ is probably a little faster, but not much (remember, Green's fastest 40 was only 4.48 at the combine). AJ is 3 inches is taller, with longer arms, and might be able to jump higher (not sure on that one). Hands are similar, but I will give a slight edge to Green.
Blackmon is much stronger and thicker (plays much bigger than Green, even though he is shorter), and thus is better getting off the line against press coverage and using his body to shield defenders. Slightly better route-runner than Green. From what I've seen, he is better after the catch.
Some of you act like Green was some amazing prospect...people weren't even sure he was the best WR in the draft last year. Now, don't get me wrong, I liked Green alot last year and was hoping he would fall to us, but he was no Calvin Johnson-like prospect.
Looking at everything, I think Blackmon is much better suited to play in a WCO than Green is.
Alshon is gonna be a star for someone but having no qb at all has put his stock into the 2nd round, again I think the real value on receivers this year is gonna be in 3rd and 4th rounds.
Dwight jones 6-4 225 UNC Jeff Fuller WR Texas A&M 6-3 220 Joe Adams WR Arkansas 5-11 190 Tommy Streeter WR Miami (Fla.) 6-4 215 Ryan Broyles WR Oklahoma 5-10 190 Marvin McNutt WR Iowa 6-2 215
That is just a few of those guys but there are a ton of receivers in that area with real NFL talent. These guys are gonna be starting in the NFL. Blackmon and Wright are probably the only 2 receivers going in the first round but I wouldnt mind atleast 2 receivers in the mid rounds.
all I know is A.J Green is 1s WR since 2003 to esclipse a 1,000 yards. Can you prove that Blackmon is a better route runner? I like Blackmon,but anyone saying he is better than Green is having illusions. Blackmon has yet to play a NFL down. I seen 1st RD WR's in the past that had the same attributes as Blackmon..but in time they were either cut or or journeyman Rashad Woods Marquis Walker Roy Williams David Terrell Braylon Edwards. Lets wait and see on Blackmon before we annoint him leagues above AJ Green.
Quote: Alshon is gonna be a star for someone but having no qb at all has put his stock into the 2nd round, again I think the real value on receivers this year is gonna be in 3rd and 4th rounds.
Dwight jones 6-4 225 UNC Jeff Fuller WR Texas A&M 6-3 220 Joe Adams WR Arkansas 5-11 190 Tommy Streeter WR Miami (Fla.) 6-4 215 Ryan Broyles WR Oklahoma 5-10 190 Marvin McNutt WR Iowa 6-2 215
That is just a few of those guys but there are a ton of receivers in that area with real NFL talent. These guys are gonna be starting in the NFL. Blackmon and Wright are probably the only 2 receivers going in the first round but I wouldnt mind atleast 2 receivers in the mid rounds.
What do you think of Sanu???
I am the only one talking about the guy. Am I just crazy?? I think the guy is going to be super.
I like Sanu with our 2nd rounder, if we don't get a WR in the 1st. Good quickness, good hands, route running I have seen could be improved, has looked like he 'rounds off' routes to me, decent body control as well. He does have straight line speed as well, but quickness is more important to me, into and out of cuts etc. Have seen more 'body catches' than I would like to, but does use his hands a lot as well.
Oh and an important thing, he doesn't jump every time he is about to catch the ball.
Sanu I see as an early to mid 2nd round guy. He seems to have pretty good hands and powerful legs. I cant really judge his routes because even if he runs a route that looked crisp the ball was often late or in a bad position which should make him feel right at home with the Browns.
Pretty good blocker in the run game. Just seems to need polish and his stock will really depend on his 40 time. He is a tough physical receiver and if he can surprise with a good 40, he has a chance to move into the first.
Quote: Alshon is gonna be a star for someone but having no qb at all has put his stock into the 2nd round, again I think the real value on receivers this year is gonna be in 3rd and 4th rounds.
Dwight jones 6-4 225 UNC Jeff Fuller WR Texas A&M 6-3 220 Joe Adams WR Arkansas 5-11 190 Tommy Streeter WR Miami (Fla.) 6-4 215 Ryan Broyles WR Oklahoma 5-10 190 Marvin McNutt WR Iowa 6-2 215
That is just a few of those guys but there are a ton of receivers in that area with real NFL talent. These guys are gonna be starting in the NFL. Blackmon and Wright are probably the only 2 receivers going in the first round but I wouldnt mind atleast 2 receivers in the mid rounds.
Right there is probably the best argument against Blackmon.
Man...there are some good WRs coming out of college these days. I had kind of forgotten about McNutt. And I love Broyles and think he's Derrick Mason 2.0.
This is the year to get the QB, mortgage the future and get Luck...and get the WRs later.
Quote: Sanu I see as an early to mid 2nd round guy. He seems to have pretty good hands and powerful legs. I cant really judge his routes because even if he runs a route that looked crisp the ball was often late or in a bad position which should make him feel right at home with the Browns.
Pretty good blocker in the run game. Just seems to need polish and his stock will really depend on his 40 time. He is a tough physical receiver and if he can surprise with a good 40, he has a chance to move into the first.
OK....we agree.....I am talking at 1B or 2....that's in line.
Never said Blackmon is better, just pointing out their differences. AJ Green is more suited to a vertical passing game (which I haven't seen us run this year). Blackmon can be a deep-threat, though not as good as Green, but I feel he does have some attributes that fit in well with a WCO. Pick him up and get a speedy slot that can stretch the field vertically down the middle (or a faster TE like Hernandez of the Patriots) and you have the makings a a pretty good passing attack (minus QB)
I've seen WRs with similar skillsets to AJ Green get cut and end-up journymen. Look no further than Braylon Edwards. Ok, AJ has much more reliable hands, but you get the point.
Blackmon, if he's still on the board at # 4 we grab him, He wont be, Rams will snatch him up at # 2,
As for taking him at # 4 too high.....If you need him you draft him, If you know without a doubt, this person is going to come in right away & help your football team you draft him, If you know this person fills a glaring hole for your team, you take them, no matter what the so called experts say.
So with Blackmon being gone to the Rams, who do we take at # 4.
Blackmon, if he's still on the board at # 4 we grab him, He wont be, Rams will snatch him up at # 2,
As for taking him at # 4 too high.....If you need him you draft him, If you know without a doubt, this person is going to come in right away & help your football team you draft him, If you know this person fills a glaring hole for your team, you take them, no matter what the so called experts say.
So with Blackmon being gone to the Rams, who do we take at # 4.
Don't be so sure...That 6'1" frame is a big reason he may just be there at 4...
The best thing Goodell has done is incorporate this Rookie Salary Structure...Trades in the top 5 will now happen...Only picks being the cost...Not Millions...
This thing can go soooo many ways even with Luck being the concensus #1...Who trades for Manning???...Who tries to come up to 2 or 3 for RGIII???...I'm not so sure Miami will pay the price to do it...And I think it's a safe bet that Manning goes to either Miami or Washington...
I think the 1st 3 players gone will be Luck/Kalil/RGIII...Just a matter of what team and where...
Then comes Blackmon and Claiborne if Minny doesn't snag Claiborne...
As much as I LOVE Claiborne...I think I go BPA with NEED in mind...And in prior years I would NEVER SAY THAT...These 2 SHOULD be rated close enough to justify taking???
BLACKMON...Man he and Little would look good...I also snag Broyles with a 4th...
Mour...Deep???...What's the word on Broyles???...Will he be anywhere near ready for any Combine/Pro Day/Team workouts by April???
Well, the guy we passed up, Julio Jones (and I support that deal) missed three games and still had eight TDs and nearly 1,000 yards. I think Blackmon looks better than he did. So maybe he's somewhere between Green and Jones, but he's head and shoulders the best in the draft. He's a No. 1 WR in the making, for sure. And Little will be a great No. 2. Norwood or even Evan Moore could be the slot guy. We need to either take Blackmon, or drop down for Richardson and grab one of the other top WRs (Sanu, Wright, Jeffery) at No. 2. We are NOT gonna get Luck. RG3 is too speculative for the high pick. Sign Flynn, draft a project (Cousins, Wheedon, Tannehill if lucky), get a RT and another DE and this team is looking damn good.
If memory serves, wasn't Blackmon being talked about in the same sentences as Green and Jones last year? Yes, I know that he was just a sophomore, but I recall hearing his name at this time last year already.
Quote: If memory serves, wasn't Blackmon being talked about in the same sentences as Green and Jones last year? Yes, I know that he was just a sophomore, but I recall hearing his name at this time last year already.
yep.. he would have gone in the 1st round last year too...
Datko is probably looking at 5th to undrafted. When they have to go back and do surgery on old injuries that didnt heal, especially when it comes to offensive linemen, stock gonna plummet.
Quote: If you want to know if someone has good hands, just watch their hand placement as they catch the ball, especially on slants. If they let the ball get into their body or jump unnecessarily to catch the ball (as much as I like Cribbs, he does this alot, and I've seen it from Little alot this year too),
If your QB runs you into a train a couple of times, you'll start jumping to catch late passes over the middle, too.
definitely someone to think about with our 2nd round pick or possibly even 1B pick (be interested to grade him against Wright - as KW had the better QB by far).
also, if we get Blackmon, then we just need a slot WR and I don't see us taking 2 WRs that high. I am all aboard the Broyles in the 3rd train there (or 4th if we think he will drop).
I don't know about that. Norwood might grow into that slot role yet. He flashed a bit for us this year. Not sure I use a late first or early second on a guy who probably isn't going to be more than a slot WR.
If RG3 is gone.. Blackmon is starting to look better and better to me.
Blackmon Little MoMass Cribbs Norwood
that's a solid 5 right there.
The thing that is really impressing me about Blackmon is his after the catch ability.. as a WR.. he catches that thing and runs hard like he Adrian Peterson.. lol.. He runs like he's trying to score w/ every catch.
Quote: I don't know about that. Norwood might grow into that slot role yet. He flashed a bit for us this year. Not sure I use a late first or early second on a guy who probably isn't going to be more than a slot WR.
i was thinking Broyles in the 3rd or 4th as our slot guy.
i like Sanu as our 2nd rounder and he is not a slot guy. He's 6'2" 215lbs and more of an Anquan Boldin type WR (with hopefully a little more speed)
Crabtree has NOTHING on Blackmon.. Please don't put those two names in the same sentence..
Why? It's a really good comparison of their strength's/weaknesses as players -- Crabtree slipped on draft day, but in January of that year was thought of as a top 5 lock (actually higher than Blackmon is now)
Strengths: Sensational playmaker…utilizes his hands very well in catching the football away from his body…Crabtree is a physical player who has demonstrated that getting off a jam at the line of scrimmage is not an issue…has had the additional advantage of lining up at both flankers and slot positions, and has found success while playing both…runs crisp routes, so transition to the NFL level should be more smoothly than others…outstanding vertical leap, catches the football at its highest point…should develop into a terrific red zone threat…
Weaknesses: Top end speed is not going to be ideal, reportedly…added speculation circulates Crabtree’s 40 time as he is not going to run at the Scouting Combine, rather at individual workout…recent high-profile receivers who have not run well, Dwayne Jarrett, Malcolm Kelly, etc. have not progressed well to the NFL level…Crabtree has had an amazing collegiate career, but it was only two years, and prior to that, he was a high school QB, so as a wide receiver, he is still developing…playing in the spread offense at Texas Tech has, in all likelihood, glorified his statistics…will he be able to separate from cornerbacks at the next level…?
Overall: The one knock on Michael Crabtree’s NFL potential is his top-end speed, besides that he is, in many scouts opinion, infallible. He is extremely quick off the ball, and the more physical nature of the National Football League will be a fit for Michael Crabtree’s game. He has outstanding hands, and it is almost unbelievable to think that he has only played the position for two years. There are two schools of thought in regards to his experience or lack thereof, some may feel that there is going to be a transition phase where he struggles to the NFL level, some feel that due to his inexperience, the best is yet to come. The Andre Johnson/Larry Fitzgerald comparisons are out there, and they are accurate. Michael Crabtree is a top five talent in the 2009 NFL Draft, and the early favorite for 2009 Offensive Rookie of the Year.
They're very similar physically, not overly big or fast. In spread offense, run good routes, and known for yac. Only difference is that Crabbtree has better hands.
He is not only the best WR in this next draft, but also one of the best players period.
Drops... That's just bunk. He has great hand eye coordination and adjust to the ball like no other in this draft.
If you are expecting AJ Green, then you might not like him with our 4th pick. Think A. Bolden. Last years draft was last years draft. You can't compare last years talent pool to this years as a basis for an argument as to where some one should be drafted. That's just idiotic.
Size. '6"1" 215 lbs is not small for a WR.
He is the same size as is Cribbs and I don't know anyone who thinks he is too small for a WR.
Quote: They're very similar physically, not overly big or fast. In spread offense, run good routes, and known for yac. Only difference is that Crabbtree has better hands.
Blackmon is better at adjusting to the ball. He changes his route to get to where the ball is going as well as any college WR I have seen.
Again, the route that sticks out for me is that 4th down catch he had in the Fiesta Bowl. I understand it was just one play, and maybe he's dropped it 20 times the rest of this season.
But, he ran a nice route, and when Weeden threw him a bullet, he caught it clean and got good YAC. When he threw that DB on the ground, that was awesome.
Is Blackmon AJ Green? No, probably not. But, to say we shouldn't draft him because he's not as good as Green means that the Bengals should haven't drafted Green because he's not as good as Calvin Johnson, or that Green isn't as good as Larry Fitzgerald, so therefore, they shouldn't draft him.
We also threw the ball over 100 more times than SF this season, and Greg Little had more targets than Crabtree...just goes to show you how messed up our offensive play-calling was this year. Suddenly, Crabtree's numbers don't look as bad.
I still think Crabtree can be a great WR in the NFL. It's just hard to put up big numbers on a run-first team that likes play close games and rely on it's defense. Alex Smith is also a mediocre QB.
Well, it's not a complete story, though. It's not as though Alex Smith suddenly got some new skill he'd never had before, he got a new coach. That coach, at the admission of both him and Smith (as featured on ESPN earlier in the season) "simplified" the offense that the 49ers were running. Smith has been able to be much more effective in that offense.
Additionally, the 49ers have Frank Gore, Mike Crabtree, Vernon Davis, Ted Ginn, Josh Morgan, and Kyle Williams, who have all at some point in their careers shown themselves to be capable.
so was Alex Smith until his 7th year in the league
That's odd, isn't it? I'm sure the irony will be lost on many people though.
So if it takes a 1st round QB 7 years to reach mediocrity, how long does it take a well below average 3rd round QB?
Maybe 10?
What the hell .... sign me up for another 10 years of losing football. That sounds like fun.
You either don't pay attention, or your hatred for Colt has blinded you - either way, it's your fault.
I don't know of anyone on here saying Colt should get 5 years, or 7 years, or 10 years. I DO, however, know many people don't agree with trading 3 first round picks and a second or 2 in order to get someone that has proven nothing. Luck MIGHT be good. He might suck. It might take HIM 7 years to be good (with a great running game and some decent receivers).
You are the one that is singleminded in the "we HAVE to get a new qb" thought process.
Many - if not most on here, are of the mindset of "Hey, if we can get Luck or RG with a draft friendly trade, let's do it. If not, let's fill other holes and see what happens".............see, believe it or not, there WILL be a draft next year as well. And, believe it or not, there will "can't miss" prospects next year - in fact, one of them was touted this year as "perfect"..........he'll be there next year, along with a few others I would guess.
Would you ever admit that the browns have holes all over?
Would you ever admit that trading 3 first rounders and a second rounder would NOT fill those holes?
Would you ever admit that perhaps making a trade like that would be foolish when we need so much?
Would you ever admit that I'm not against drafting a qb, but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak? (no, I don't mean colt - I mean trading away our ability to draft quality players in the mean time).
Please - your colt hatred has gone over the top. Everyone know he's not been stellar.
It amazes me how you give Newton kudos for "turning that team around", but when faced with "they were only 6-10" you resort to "they had injuries". And you ignore those exact same circumstances here. Hell, even our 9 year "vet" in the system couldn't score points.
You suppose it's the team? No, you just blame the qb. Gets old.
Honestly, I'm not defending colt. I'm defending the team. If we can get a new qb, at a reasonable price/cost that will be an upgrade - I'm all for it. See, I'm not a Colt fan - I'm a Browns fan. As a Browns fan - I can't fathom why anyone would sell the future for a prospect. PROSPECT. He might be a good prospect, but he's that - prospect. The draft is full - CHOCK full of "great prospects". "NFL ready on day one" prospects.
I've never heard of a team that traded 3 first round picks, plus a second..........have you?
Regain your senses boy. I know you've been harping all year about Colt, and his accuracy, and his lack of this, that and the other thing. One thing I've never heard is the Browns lack of a running game. Or their lack of an average line, Or there lack of receivers. Nope - only time you mention that is when you speak of OTHER teams.
Fine. I'm not trading 3 first round draft picks for Aaron Rodgers, or Tom Brady, or Drew Brees. Wanna know why? While we might win a game or 3 more, it would kill the team long term. And in 3 years, we'd be right back here, where we are.
If a qb is there for a fair trade - take them. If not, fill other holes. What is so hard to understand about that??
Yeah, I do see 2 superstar QB in this draft, and I realize what damn near everyone in the world recognizes ..... and that's the fact that this is a QB driven league, and that QBs make teams, teams don't make QBs. I want this team to rejoin the elites of the NFL, and the only way to do that ..... the only way we stand a chance of even competing in our own division, is to find an elite QB of our own, and then worry about what needs replace around him. Elite QBs make other players better. QBs make teams, teams don't make QBs. There are so many examples of this in this very season, but people just will not see.
If we have the chance to get a franchise level QB then we better take it, or we better get used to 4th place. We might occasionally get into 3rd, but we won't sniff 2nd or 1st until we find that QB who makes all of his teammates better, and who does all of the things that drag his team to wins.
I am tired of watching ineffective QB play and having it excused because of any and every reason in the book. It's time to attack the QB position, and keep dign so, if necessary, until we get it right. It's not right right now.
Quote: And, speaking of QBs, Justin Blackmon is a good WR.
He is very good, and very good at YAC, which is always important but especially in the WCO..
He did get his hands on a potential TD pass the other night coming across the back of the endzone but he wasn't able to pull it in.. Of course if Colt McC... I mean Weeden had put it where it was supposed to be, he would have caught it.
Quote: If we have the chance to get a franchise level QB then we better take it, or we better get used to 4th place. We might occasionally get into 3rd, but we won't sniff 2nd or 1st until we find that QB who makes all of his teammates better, and who does all of the things that drag his team to wins.
Like Baltimore?
I'd like to have Luck or RGIII on the team too, but like arch I don't want to dry our well for one guy. As of now, my Browns board is:
Luck (ahead of Griffin only b/c of durability concerns and concussion history) RGIII (although I would be just as happy with him as Luck) Blackmon Claiborne
I could live with any of those four. I didn't include any trading because of course it always depends on compensation.
He is good. I just don't know if he is a game changer.
He might be. He looked damn good against Stanford. Then again, like I have said elsewhere, the best passing teams in the NFL have rarely drafted receivers in the 1st round.
1. He sucks. 2. He has one of the worst attitudes on the team. 3. He isn't aware that he sucks, and would rather make our starter look bad in case he can look good... 4. I'm tired of his Hollywood Hogan beard.
I'm not in for Flynn. I say if we can't get RGIII (or Luck) at 4, then keep McCoy and Wallace. Like I posted a few days ago, when did Flynn get better than these two guys? I think it has more to do with the system, the time in that system, the coaching, and the surrounding talent. Add on top of that the demeanor/attitude of the team. Even though he's a backup, Flynn has been in a WCO longer than McCoy.
I think we need as many shots as possible at making significant upgrades on our team. Rounds 1 and 2 are great places to do that. Top of round 3 is another good place.
*edit* and I'm not particularly sold on any of the other QBs in the draft. Tannehill, Weeden... IMO they aren't any more likely to bust than most middle-of-the road prospects at QB, but I want to draft as many players as would be upgrades as possible. With Luck and RGIII, it's easy to see how we upgrade the QB position. Those guys, I'm not so sure. I'd rather have an excellent LB, RT, CB, WR prospect than another guy who may or may not be an OK QB.
QB isn't like other positions. Incremental talent upgrades are good at most positions. I don't want us acquiring any new QBs who aren't studs. Mourg and Django may disagree with me, but I want us to draft Luck, RGIII, or no QB.
Quote: Then again, like I have said elsewhere, the best passing teams in the NFL have rarely drafted receivers in the 1st round.
That's true unless you count Meacham for the Saints, Calvin Johnson for the Lions, Hakeem Nicks for the Giants, Vincent Jackson for the Chargers, Dez Bryant for the Cowboys, Julio Jones and Roddy White for the Falcons, Jeremy Maclin for the Eagles and Heath Miller (a TE, not a WR) for the Steelers..
That's 7 of the top 10 passing offenses in the NFL this year with a first round WR pick and one with a first round pass catching TE.. the Pats and Packers both have 2nd round picks in Deion Branch and Jordy Nelson and Greg Jennings... I will also add that the best year for the Pats offense and for Tom Brady and the year they scored the most points and went 16-0 was with Randy Moss.. another first round pick..
I guess it all depends on your definition of "rarely"..
They can franchise him so that he is restricted, then trade him to the team that offers the most. It's what the Patriots did with Matt Cassel. I don't know if that's what they will do, but they most definitely can do it.
Quote: there is no way the Packers Franchise Flynn. They would be paying him top money to sit. Hes going to FA.
don't want to take anymore time in the Blackmon thread on Flynn - but from the Flynn thread: the Packers could franchise Flynn to trade him like NE did with Cassel (even though that is illegal in the CBA). the most likely reason they would not is that they need that tag for Finley and they would handcuff themselves under the cap until the trade was processed.
Quote: They can franchise him so that he is restricted, then trade him to the team that offers the most. It's what the Patriots did with Matt Cassel. I don't know if that's what they will do, but they most definitely can do it.
Ok perhaps I miss understand something on how that works. This is from wiki
Quote: Types of franchise tagThere are two types of franchise tag designations: the exclusive rights franchise tag, and non-exclusive rights franchise tag:
An "exclusive" franchise player must be offered a one-year contract for an amount no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player's position as of a date in April of the current year in which the tag will apply, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater. Exclusive franchise players cannot negotiate with other teams.
A "non-exclusive" franchise player must be offered a one-year contract for an amount no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player's position in the previous year, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater. A non-exclusive franchise player may negotiate with other NFL teams, but if he signs an offer sheet from another team, the original team has a right to match the terms of that offer, or if it does not match the offer and thus loses the player, is entitled to receive two first-round draft picks as compensation.
Correction: As of the new CBA, the franchise tag offer will be the average of the top paid player at the respective position over the last five seasons. This will actually reduce the amount that a team would need to offer a player.
So my understanding is they would have to pay him top 5 money divided from the last 5 years probably about 10 mil a year or he can find a trade partner that would pay him top 5 money (which why wouldnt you ask for what GB would have to pay you) AND give up 2 first round picks?
Yeah I guess they could do it but eventually they would have to drop the tag and hes a FA or someone is dumb enough to give up 2 1st. Again not sure.
Quote: I broke it all down earlier. I'm not going to do so again.
You broke it down that 7 of the top 10 passing teams in the NFL this year had first round draft picks at WR and you still said it rarely happens?
Not to mention that the Steelers also drafted Plaxico Burress and Santonio Holmes in the first round, both of whom contributed greatly to championship teams.
You go back the year before, and you see the same pattern among top passing teams - Andre Johnson in Houston, the Colts with Wayne and Clark ... the year before that, it's still the usual suspects, plus Minnesota and Percy Harvin.
If you look back at the last decade, most of the time the top passing attacks have a first round WR.
Me? I'd rather stay away from Blackmon at #4, but I don't know what YTown is talking about here.
on some of the comments about Colt being mediocre.. I think Colt would take more risks and throw more deep if his WR's saved him more often. With so many drops I think Colt has put a mental block in some of the throws he makes b/c he's not truly confident that his WR's will make the catch.
As for Blackmon, I LOVE his attitude. He's nasty, feisty and a bit of a hot head. That's exactly what this pathetic team is missing. Someone who will bring some much needed attitude to the lake front.
People saying his size is a concern? Reggie Wayne and Wes Welker disagree with you. Besides, DUDE IS RIPPED. He does look like a LBJ man-child out there.
Instant impact on this team. Stretches the field and will demand double teams. That opens up the run game and other WRs. This offense becomes instantly better, even with the same mediocre QB play.
If Luck and RG3 are off the board, this is the no-brainer pick.
People will say that Stanford's DBs aren't that good. So, the key is, can he run away from the guys in the pros?
All of them? Probably not. There are some pretty darn fast DBs out there. But most of them? I'm willing to be he can. And, if not, he'll just throw them on the ground.
Also, if Blackmon puts up good numbers at the combine, I think there's a good chance the Rams take him at 2, or, if he's sitting there at 3 for the Vikings, someone tries to trade to get ahead of us (like Jacksonville).
Quote: Also, if Blackmon puts up good numbers at the combine, I think there's a good chance the Rams take him at 2, or, if he's sitting there at 3 for the Vikings, someone tries to trade to get ahead of us (like Jacksonville).
Interesting decisions for the Rams and Vikings. Both need a LT so possibly Kalil, both need DB help so possibly Claiborne, both need Wr help so possibly Blackmon, both have multiple holes so possibly trade down with somebody interested in RGIII.
hard to say. he's thrown a bunch of passes where the WR/RB cuts one way and his pass goes to a different cut location. only the coaching staff/players are going to know who made the wrong read.
also, there have been a bunch of drops that would have been 1st down plays and kept drives alive. some of the drops have been Colt's fault (leading WRs to bad spots), but others have been good passes that were dropped (Seneca had a couple in the Pitt game happen to him too).
of course, Colt also had a bunch of very bad reads and decisions that were obvious (the TroyP INT in the first Pitt game comes directly to mind).
so, why can't we say that it's everyones fault and they all need to get better
Quote: Also, if Blackmon puts up good numbers at the combine, I think there's a good chance the Rams take him at 2, or, if he's sitting there at 3 for the Vikings, someone tries to trade to get ahead of us (like Jacksonville).
I see about a .0001% chance that Blackmon isn't there when the Browns pick. Morris Claiborne, Matt Kalil and Robert Griffin are all much more likely to be picked in the top three.
The only wideouts to go top three in the past decade: Charles Rogers, Andre Johnson (two phenomenal prospects, both were 6'3" 220), Larry Fizgerald (I don't need to add anything, do I?), Braylon Edwards (terrible draft class, Braylon was 6'3" 210, great athlete) and Megatron (don't need to say anything).
All of those guys were better prospects than Blackmon. Hell, last year A.J. Green didn't go until No. 4 and he was almost as good of a prospect as Megatron was. Blackmon isn't in the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence.
I saw someone say Blackmon was talked about with A.J. Green and Julio Jones last year. Not true. Blackmon was projected as a top-20 pick, not even top-five or even top-ten.
Quote: I see about a .0001% chance that Blackmon isn't there when the Browns pick. Morris Claiborne, Matt Kalil and Robert Griffin are all much more likely to be picked in the top three.
I hope that you are correct. However, if StL and Minny don't find trade partners, will one of them draft a CB?
You listed the WRs drafted top3 in the past decade. I'll list the CBs:
That's the list. Springs was the last one to go top3 in the late 90s. I agree Claiborne is a better overall prospect than Blackmon, and the recent shift towards pure-passing offense may make NFL teams more willing to draft CBs high. But history isn't on that side.
And, I don't think StL or Minn takes RGIII, so we're hoping on a trade-down, which combines a ton of factors (like what happens w/ Flynn, Peyton, etc.)
Minnesota's secondary is probably their weakest unit. Antoine Winfield will be 35 by next season and Cedric Griffin is coming off two knee injuries. They desperately need a cornerback.
Good point about the corners in the top three. My only argument is that, like you said, Claiborne is easily the superior prospect.
Quote: Minnesota's secondary is probably their weakest unit. Antoine Winfield will be 35 by next season and Cedric Griffin is coming off two knee injuries. They desperately need a cornerback.
Good point about the corners in the top three. My only argument is that, like you said, Claiborne is easily the superior prospect.
Plus I don't think that there are a ton of "elite" prospects in this draft. There are a ton of very, very good players, who should have long and successful careers, but there aren't a lot of those guys like a Patrick Peterson, or an AJ Green, that look like sure fire Pro Bowlers.
Of course, 3 years ago, the top of that draft looked impressive as all get out. However, Bradshaw, and McCoy (Gerald) have struggled and been hurt. Suh went from 66 tackles and 10 sacks in his rookie year to 36 tackles and 4 sacks this year. (and missed 2 games) Neither Tackle taken has been a plug 'em in and let them play 16 type. Eric Berry has been hurt. McClain appears to be coming along nicely. Spiller's been "meh" ...... and Haden's been pretty good. He's not a shut down corner, but I wonder sometimes if there are any these days with the passing rules and such. he didn't start right away, but once he broke the starting lineup he's been in there day in and day out, and has been "Steady" .....+. I bet he'd go significantly higher than 7 if there was a "redraft".
I look at the top 10 that year and a case could be made that he has been one of the best 2 picks in the top 10 so far.
This thread is about Justin Blackmon, not about Colt McCoy. If people want to discuss quarterbacks, do so in the appropriate thread. Let's try our best not to turn every single thread into a discussion on Colt McCoy.
I see four elite players in this draft: Andrew Luck, Trent Richardson, Morris Claiborne, Matt Kalil. Luck is the best QB in the past decade, Richardson is the best running back since AP, Claiborne is almost as good as Patrick Peterson and much better than Joe Haden or anyone else in the past five years, and Kalil is the best OT since Jake Long.
After those four, there is a significant drop off. Six-ten is a terrible place to be picking this year.
Quote: I see four elite players in this draft: Andrew Luck, Trent Richardson, Morris Claiborne, Matt Kalil. Luck is the best QB in the past decade, Richardson is the best running back since AP, Claiborne is almost as good as Patrick Peterson and much better than Joe Haden or anyone else in the past five years, and Kalil is the best OT since Jake Long.
After those four, there is a significant drop off. Six-ten is a terrible place to be picking this year.
Quote: I see four elite players in this draft: Andrew Luck, Trent Richardson, Morris Claiborne, Matt Kalil. Luck is the best QB in the past decade, Richardson is the best running back since AP, Claiborne is almost as good as Patrick Peterson and much better than Joe Haden or anyone else in the past five years, and Kalil is the best OT since Jake Long.
After those four, there is a significant drop off. Six-ten is a terrible place to be picking this year.
If we draft Richardson, initially I will be very disappointed for sure. Later on maybe not, we would have to see.
Hillis is the second most entertaining RB I've seen play for the Browns in my 30 years of following them behind Eric Metcalf. He's punishing. He has GREAT hands out of the backfield. I like it when he hurdles people. I like it when he runs them over. I like green eggs and ham sam I am.
I want to continue watching him play here in Cleveland and I want to find a player of impact at a position that is really lacking be it QB, WR, RDE or CB.
Please resign Hillis and don't spend our well earned high draft pick replacing one of my favorite players to watch.
Quote: I just don't think that RB is a position that Heckert considers worthy of a top 5 pick in a draft.
He has also said that he feels that you can find 4-3 DE and LB in the 2nd and lower rounds.
I totally agree with him. I might take the right LB in the first round but I am not on the Trent Richardson bandwagon.. he is probably the only guy we've mentioned with the #4 pick that would really upset me. Not because I think he won't be great, he probably will, but we have much bigger needs and running backs seem to come out of nowhere any more...
I'd actually be ok with Richardson, especially if he turns out to be a durable back. Even if Hillis stays, I don't trust that he'll be healthy, and Hardesty is always an injury looking to happen. It'd be nice to have a consistent, top tier runner that teams have to worry about for the next 5-6 years.
That said, I can also understand Heckert's logic if he just doesn't value them that high. Good running backs can come out of nowhere.
I guess I'd take Blackmon ahead of Richardson, but I'd be a little worried about his temper/attitude. Being a hot tempered individual can be a good thing, but on a team that loses often and with a QB that can't get you the ball, it can turn into a problem quickly.
Quote: I guess I'd take Blackmon ahead of Richardson, but I'd be a little worried about his temper/attitude. Being a hot tempered individual can be a good thing, but on a team that loses often and with a QB that can't get you the ball, it can turn into a problem quickly.
We would just have to rely on our proven veteran WRs to help him keep his attitude in check.. guys like... ummm... uhhh.. help me out here.
Loved watching him for the past few years. A lock to be a Pro-Bowl WR a few years down the road.
The Browns could use those type of guys at every position. For me I'd rather get a top flight FA WR like Vincent Jackson than use this pick on one. We're really young as a position group there and I'd personally rather get a guy who can lead that group than draft one.
I'd rather spend valuable draft picks on the correct QB/RDE/CB/WLB than burn one on a young WR.
If we draft him I'm all for it though and will be happy. I love me some Blackmon.
People keep wanting to compare him to Green..I see two different players..I like Blackmon..he plays big and thats what I like..he has game speed ,is physical and just the wideout the Browns can use..now Michael Floyd may be better polished but I like Blackmons game a lot.
Quote: I guess I'd take Blackmon ahead of Richardson, but I'd be a little worried about his temper/attitude. Being a hot tempered individual can be a good thing, but on a team that loses often and with a QB that can't get you the ball, it can turn into a problem quickly.
We would just have to rely on our proven veteran WRs to help him keep his attitude in check.. guys like... ummm... uhhh.. help me out here.
well, you don't have to be a superstar to be a leader. Cribbs has shown that he can keep his attitude in....well, he's at least playful with his attitude
Exciting? Sure. But I am sick of thinking "please don't fumble the ball" or man I hope Hillis plays this week, etc... One good season in 4 isn't worth a whole to me.
Speaking of Hardesty, I keep hoping for a breakout from him and I just didn't see anything close to that. Good kid, I"m sure he's a hardworker but with the same line, a healthty Hillis racks up yards, Hardesty doesn't. What's that tell you?
Given that he was drafted by the Browns under this regime, I suspect he'll get at least one more year.. hope it works out better than the last two. But I wouldn't count on it.
Quote: Speaking of Hardesty, I keep hoping for a breakout from him and I just didn't see anything close to that. Good kid, I"m sure he's a hardworker but with the same line, a healthty Hillis racks up yards, Hardesty doesn't. What's that tell you?
Given that he was drafted by the Browns under this regime, I suspect he'll get at least one more year.. hope it works out better than the last two. But I wouldn't count on it.
So what you're saying is that Blackmon is a good WR?
Quote: Speaking of Hardesty, I keep hoping for a breakout from him and I just didn't see anything close to that. Good kid, I"m sure he's a hardworker but with the same line, a healthty Hillis racks up yards, Hardesty doesn't. What's that tell you?
Given that he was drafted by the Browns under this regime, I suspect he'll get at least one more year.. hope it works out better than the last two. But I wouldn't count on it.
So what you're saying is that Blackmon is a good WR?
I think he's saying that Blackmon is so good that he can solve or RB issues too
Quote: Given that he was drafted by the Browns under this regime, I suspect he'll get at least one more year.. hope it works out better than the last two. But I wouldn't count on it.
Don't want to get off topic, but I try not to judge a RB too harshly the first year back from major knee surgery. Next year we'll see if he lost his burst/explosion for good. Either way, I have no confidence in his ability to stay healthy, so I don't think he's long for this team anyway.
Warren Moon: Blackmon is Dez Bryant with 'brain cells'
By Reid Cherner, USA TODAY
Hall of Fame quarterback Warren Moon is a fan of Oklahoma State wide receiver Justin Blackmon and had a unique comparison to explain his talent.
"He's a beast isn't he?" Moon told 710 AM's Kevin Calabro. "He's like Dez Bryant with all his brain cells....he has all the skills Dez Bryant has but he's not the knucklehead that Dez Bryant turned out to be with Dallas. He's a better route runner than Dez Bryant. A very tremendous talent."
Warren Moon is hilarious. The comments were really necessary but from hearing from Cowboys fans.. Dez Bryant really doesn't have it all.. not only off the field.. but on the field too.. saying that he doesn't know the playbook and if they change offensive coordinators he is in trouble bc he'll have to try and learn a new playbook.
we may get Flynn in FA, so Blackmon would be a consideration.
Colts may not want to trade Luck and someone may pay more than we are willing to trade up to get RGIII. So, Blackmon would be a consideration.
and, I love how Warren Moon uses the Houston v. Dallas hatred in his comparison (since he's a former Oiler). Definitely going to rile some folks up and I think that's funny.
