Quote: He is from basically the same offense we run. The Browns scouted this kid HARD. I think they know him probably better than he knows himself by now and the Mike Sherman connection to this team can't be overlooked.
I ride u hard about Tanny...But if we go this route they best be right...Same thing with RGIII...Cause we're looking at obviously a pretty high first rounder for a QB that is one of the most...If not THE most inexperienced to EVER breech the Top 10...
Answer this...There is ZERO chance we will take Tanny at 4...Dream all u want but we will NOT take a player who is most likely rated OUTSIDE our Top 7...Probably even our Top 10...
If this draft goes...
Luck RGIII Kalil
And we sit at 4 with Claiborne there...Who I KNOW u like as much as me...Are u willing to move down for Tannehill and leave Claiborne on the board???...You're looking at losing an IMPACT PLAYER for a PROJECT...
Tanny's lack of experience makes him a project...Don't kid yourself...
Could we do it and go with McCoy in 2012???...Sure we could...But gosh damn it Mour...We'd be leaving a bonafide STUD behind in Claiborne...
I always say 2 things about a draft...ANY draft...
"weird" only to the many in the media who just assume the Browns have already decided to replace McCoy AND have decided that RGIII is going to be his replacement. Gotta love pre-draft speculation.
I agree. If he falls I am ok with the pick, but please do not give up some obscene package for a kid who was considered a 3rd rounder last year and who Shurmer may not be able to utilize correctly in his rigid system.
I actually think we're VERY interested because of this report...everybody knows that we will dictate the price for RG, so why should we telegraph our "desperation" 2 months before tha draft?
At this time of the process the Rams need us to be interested...but we would be stupid to show interest at this point as Peyton, Flynn and Campbell still havent signed their FA contract...after those our bargaining position will look much better...if we don't show any interest then...well then maybe there's something to it...but now? Just doesn't make sense to signal interest....no matter how (un)interested we are
Well, I'm sure that there will be plenty of folks happy to interpret our disinterest as an interest, but I'm very much equally happy to view the disinterest as disinterest
Right now there is a huge QB shortage and teams are reaching like crazy. Tannehill at 4 isn't nearly the reach we saw last year in the first round. I think being from this offense is a huge leg up on the competition, that is major experience running the west coast offense.
The negative is experience reading defenses and that takes time under center experience. I think he is a day 1 starter but there will be growing pains.
As for Claiborne, I see Greatness. You just cant teach the kind of feet and hips the kid has. Claiborne and Haden would be the best tandem in football.
tough call on what to do but FA can help us and we will know much more in 2 weeks.
Quote: I actually think we're VERY interested because of this report...everybody knows that we will dictate the price for RG, so why should we telegraph our "desperation" 2 months before tha draft?
At this time of the process the Rams need us to be interested...but we would be stupid to show interest at this point as Peyton, Flynn and Campbell still havent signed their FA contract...after those our bargaining position will look much better...if we don't show any interest then...well then maybe there's something to it...but now? Just doesn't make sense to signal interest....no matter how (un)interested we are
U got it...
The Skins r trying as hard as possible to get this done NOW...Simply because they KNOW when we get involved they r screwed...
Absolutely. The Browns could say "Look, our GM hasn't had a chance to see anyone in person at the combine, we spent 15 minutes with him, as we were allowed, but we are going to have him in before we commit to anything.
Well, if we showed enough interest that we convinced the Redskins they would be better off signing Manning than trading 3 1sts, then it would be beneficial.
Quote: Well, I'm sure that there will be plenty of folks happy to interpret our disinterest as an interest, but I'm very much equally happy to view the disinterest as disinterest
And I don't see any way in hell that the Rams do a deal before they're on the clock. Those precious last seconds ticking by will maybe make someone make a little better offer.
Unless RG3 does something stupid to hurt his image at this point, the hype is just going to keep building... which means the price for #2 will keep going up. The more teams talked about in terms of wanting to move up to that spot, the more the price goes up.
They very well may sell the pick before the draft, however... if they feel that they can "sell high" to a team biting hard on the hype, I would expect them to pull the trigger and laugh all the way to the bank.
We basically hold the trump card, so why get into a pre-draft bidding war, when you can easily make a solid deal on draft day and use the ticking clock to your advantage? Especially if it's a "would like" deal versus a "we must have" deal.
Short of Washington doing something unlikely like giving up their whole draft, we can beat their deal if we really want to, why drive up the price prematurely.
And you don't think the disinterest might come from us not being enthralled enough to part with 2 firsts and likely either our 2nd this year or 1st next year for a non-Luck? I have a feeling the disinterest at current prices is real. I may love a Porsche 911, but at its price point I really am disinterested.
I disagree. They could lose a lot by waiting. It is possible that bidders now drop out after free agency and any new bidders will not have the same picks available that the old ones did. If they get a blow out offer, they should probably take it.
I think that the team will decide for certain on RG3 when they have him in for their official visit, and they can sit down and talk to him, break down plays, and so on. Until then I would suspect that they will be non-committal .... just like they would be on every other player.
Quote: Oh, time is totally on their side right now.
Unless RG3 does something stupid to hurt his image at this point, the hype is just going to keep building... which means the price for #2 will keep going up. The more teams talked about in terms of wanting to move up to that spot, the more the price goes up.
They very well may sell the pick before the draft, however... if they feel that they can "sell high" to a team biting hard on the hype, I would expect them to pull the trigger and laugh all the way to the bank.
If I was them I would consider trading before the pro day. I dont see him improving enough to bump Luck, and he isnt going to show some new talent or speed we havent seen. So basically his value has no where to go but down.
I think I've made it clear in my post that no matter how we view RG3 this is the only stance to take at this point, thus it's insignificant as to the "real" interest level of our FO
Quote: Demoff points to three windows: Before free agency, at the late March league meetings, and in the few days before the draft.
The third option is the most likely. Teams usually don’t put all their cards on the table until the last minute. Then again, Demoff’s words may be a strong signal from the Rams that they’d love seriously consider aggressive offers early in the bidding. (And why not? The price will only go up.)
“You can’t tell what the musical chairs will do,” said Demoff in MMQB about the post free agency period. “Maybe someone will get left out and need Griffin. You don’t know.”
The risk for the Rams is that teams that sign Peyton Manning and Matt Flynn will no longer need a quarterback. The Rams need at least two teams dying to move up for Griffin to get the best deal possible.
Quote: The Rams would be IGNORANT to take Quantity from the Skins and drop to 6 versus the QUALITY of picks and the 4 pick from us...
So once the Rams trade back to six they have to stay there? Trade back to six and then use some of there new found resources to trade back up to pick four. Makes sense to me. We pick up an extra third rounder and the Rams get one of the guys they want. Meanwhile we drop to six and get Richardson, Brockers, Coples, DeCastro, etc.
In fact, if I am having any preliminary and "oh by the way" conversations with the Rams, I let it slip that we have one guy we like if RG3 is gone when we pick ..... and he might just be the same guy the Rams are looking at since we have similar needs ...... except, of course, for the QB spot.
I also want to say something about a post I read earlier ....... about how the Rams may want to take a trade now .......
How many times does that happen, where a draft pick is traded well ahead of the draft? Don't those trades usually happen during the draft ..... or, at least, right before?
I don't think it is the Rams that want to trade now so much as it is the teams that want to avoid bidding with us want to trade now. Teams want to trade now so they can avoid the inevitable bidding war that will occur on draft day. And if we are involved in that bidding war and have a blank check we will win. That's why the Redskins want to trade now.
Why would the Rams want to do that? They don't. Unless the Rams get an offer they know won't be topped there is no point in making the trade any time before the draft.
In sounds great in theory. But it will take a little time to get to that point. Even freak of nature Patrick Peterson had about a half-season adjustment period to get into his groove as a rookie.
We got time. We'd still have an offense to build in 2013-14. I'm not looking for (I hope for) or expect this giant leap forward from where we are to the SB in a year.
The Rams are interested because waiting until the draft may not get them good bids. If Washington and Miami solve their QB need in free agency, who exactly is even going to be able to offer anything comparable to an offer from us of our 4th pick + our 2nd rounder? The answer is no one and yet, the Rams will have to take that. If Washington formalizes something like has been speculated (1, 2, 3 this year AND 1 next), the Rams would be stupid to pass that up (even 2 months ahead of the draft).
Quote: We got time. We'd still have an offense to build in 2013-14. I'm not looking for (I hope for) or expect this giant leap forward from where we are to the SB in a year.
I love a monster D though aka Ravens!
Everybody loves a monster D.. so we can get a great D and get to 7-8 wins and then try to find our offensive skill players by drafting in the teens... I think H&H have already gone on record saying they understand we need impact players on offense.. I would bet the family farm that our first pick is an offensive skill position player, either WR, RB or QB depending on where our first pick is if we trade and who is available.
Edit.. in fact, I'll be surprised if our draft goes any way other than one of these 3 options..
1. Trade up to guarantee RGIII 2. Stay put and take RGIII if he is there or Blackmon if he's not. 3. Trade back but to a position where we can get Richardson or Tannehill...
Anything other than one of those 3 scenarios would surprise me based on what I see right now.
Quote: I didn't think of it that way. But you're right. If Washington signs Flynn and Miami signs Manning they are down two bidders.
But then again they only need two teams to be in love with Griffin. Just let those two teams bid against each other.
Bottom line here, the Rams control the whole draft.
The question is would the Rams want to fall down to 6 where they have a real possibility of losing out on Kalil and Blackmon? This gives the Browns a better chance of getting that pick for much cheaper than the Redskins. If the Rams trade down to 6, they have to deal with the Vikings, Browns and TB to not pick Kalil or Blackmon, unless they have someone else in mind to pick. And even if none of those teams wants those two, they have to deal with teams trading down to someone who does.
Quote: The Rams wouldn't be stuck at six. They could be one of the teams trading up.
U think this is soooo easy???
Move from 2 to 6 then back to 4???
A move like that has NEVER happened in the history of the draft...Only in all our wanna-be minds...
especially if we were in the bidding for the #2 pick. i can just imagine Heckert fielding the call from St. Louis about how much they'd like to trade up to the #4 pick
Quote: The question is would the Rams want to fall down to 6 where they have a real possibility of losing out on Kalil and Blackmon? This gives the Browns a better chance of getting that pick for much cheaper than the Redskins. If the Rams trade down to 6, they have to deal with the Vikings, Browns and TB to not pick Kalil or Blackmon, unless they have someone else in mind to pick. And even if none of those teams wants those two, they have to deal with teams trading down to someone who does.
Not to burst any bubbles but I can easily see the Rams being very happy drafting Reiff or Floyd (especially after his 40 time) at 6.
I talk about the draft a TON to a few of my buddies in a facebook thread. We have had it going literally for just about 4 years.
I was just reviewing some of the stuff we were posting leading up to the draft this past year and aside from the fact that I had posted I doubted I believed the rumor that Atlanta would give up a "reported" 1,2,3,4, and 7 to move up to grab Julio Jones ....
I also found myself astonished that the top guy off of the board even as early as a few weeks before the draft was going to be Da'quan Bowers ....
even after they saw his medical situation it was looking like Dareus would have been #2 behind Newton and that Fairley would probably be gone by the 8th spot overall.
I suppose my point in this is I am wondering if all of this Griffin 'hype' is what it really is ... and while I am just commenting ... I would be surprised at the end of the day if the price to grab griffin ends up being two firsts plus anything else ... especially when even a month ago there were folks who were LAUGHING when they said the price for Andrew Luck (still a better prospect) could be as much as three first rounders. .... and now some people think that it might cost that much for the 2nd best player?
I just want to see what actually happens and not just what the 'newest rumor from an unnamed source familiar with the team" is ....
Say we decide we don't want Griffin, either because the price is too steep or we simply don't want him, and the Rams trade with The Sinks and drop to #6. How about getting them to trade back up with us? They still get the guy they like and we drop to a position where Tannehill makes a bit more sense. We could probably get a 2nd out of them if we tossed in one of our 4th rounders along with the swapped position.
As was said, free agency is going to make all the difference in the word. The team that gets Flynn is out of the hunt to move up and just by the nature of the signing will allow Heck to better gauge who is going to draft who, at least in and around our draft position.
Is #6 too high for Tannehill? I don't know, again, there are workouts on the horizon.
I'm gonna see a flaming bag of poop on my doorstep from Mourg over this, but yeah, 6 is WAY WAY too early for him.
He's the classic guy who looks the part and goes much higher because teams are desperate for QB's.
That isn't to say he's absolutely going to be a bum. What I am saying is that he's a project with limited experience and lots of question marks and that combination is not what you want when you buy high on a QB, especially at 6.
Quote: especially when even a month ago there were folks who were LAUGHING when they said the price for Andrew Luck (still a better prospect) could be as much as three first rounders. .... and now some people think that it might cost that much for the 2nd best player?
Thank you... I'm glad someone else sees it.
As for Tannehill - prior to the start of Silly Season™, he wasn't considered by many to be better than an early 2nd rounder if I'm correct. Aside from people reaching, I can't see him suddenly now being a Top 10 player.
Quote: And now Schefter says 2 #1's...A 3 and a 5...lmao...
If that's the price it ends up being, I bet our FO thinks long and hard about it. We have a ton of issues right now and RGIII presents a potential solution to a lot of them.
- We don't have a franchise QB: I don't think anyone is going to confuse Colt for a franchise QB. He's a solid backup but I don't feel confident that he has the ability to make a team a contender every year. RGIII has that ability and we have the coaches in place to make it happen.
- We lack a good offensive identity: What exactly is our offense? Right now, it's bland vanilla WCO minus the explosive parts of the playbook. RGIII would almost force us to expand what we do and transform us into a WCO that not only does well with the staples but also has big play potential.
- We have few if any playmakers on offense: Who on our offense keeps coaches up at night? RGIII would give opposing coordinators NIGHTMARES. How do you stop him? Heavy focus on the short stuff which is how they beat us now? He'll beat you deep. Stop him deep and he'll beat you short. Oh and he has the ability to run for big yardage outside the pocket. The definition of a playmaker.
- We don't have a face for our franchise: We don't just lack an offensive identity, we lack an organizational identity. Thomas/Haden etc. are great players but they don't get much play outside of Cleveland. RGIII is a phenomenon and he handles himself so well that he would do a great job of selling the Browns (the same way Kyrie is putting the Cavs out there)
- The fanbase needs to be energized: Right now there are some fans (even longtime diehards) who are having trouble getting excited to watch us play, like they could take a bathroom break mid-drive and miss nothing. RGIII is EXCITING to watch. He's a threat to do something incredible with every snap. We NEED a guy like that to help reverse 10+ years of apathy.
I could go on but you get the idea. He provides so much energy and hope that we're lacking right now that even for a price beginning to reach excessive, he could end up being worth it in the end.
If all those picks are the ones this year, and it was draft day and WAS still had no QB, I'd do that. We still have a second, two fourths, two 6ths, and whatever comps we get. I'd like to solve the QB position for that. WR depth is great in this draft and we can get two good guys in the fourth, or 1 good one and a RT with the other pick. Target a DE in the second... maybe Curry. 6th round pick a RB (Ganaway, Herron) and BPA the rest of the way out (FS Hartman, OLB D. Davis, ILB JMJ, DT Jaye Howard, DE Julian Miller)
1 (+1+3+5) QB RGIII 2 DE Vinny Curry 4 WR AJ Jenkins 4 OT Andrew Datko 6 RB Terrence Ganaway 6 OLB Demario Davis 6c DT Jaye Howard 6c WR Greg Childs 7c FS Tysyn Hartman 7c DE Julian Miller
As for Tannehill - prior to the start of Silly Season™, he wasn't considered by many to be better than an early 2nd rounder if I'm correct. Aside from people reaching, I can't see him suddenly now being a Top 10 player.
He was there in the eyes of a lot of scouts. These sites copy and paste and copy and paste and few actually study film or even watch these kids they write about. It is why most were still pimping Burfict until a few weeks ago. Hell Kiper the guru had him top 15 a couple weeks ago.
The more film study is done the more coaches are going to love what they see in the kid. Hey bottom line the Browns didnt have a large contingent at the Northwestern vs A&M bowl game for no reason and the kid put on a show.
That month of nothing but practice leading up to the bowl game was huge for the growth of the kid. Do they like him enough to take him at 4? If they feel he is a true franchise QB, they just might.
Say we decide we don't want Griffin, either because the price is too steep or we simply don't want him, and the Rams trade with The Sinks and drop to #6. How about getting them to trade back up with us? They still get the guy they like and we drop to a position where Tannehill makes a bit more sense. We could probably get a 2nd out of them if we tossed in one of our 4th rounders along with the swapped position.
As was said, free agency is going to make all the difference in the word. The team that gets Flynn is out of the hunt to move up and just by the nature of the signing will allow Heck to better gauge who is going to draft who, at least in and around our draft position.
Is #6 too high for Tannehill? I don't know, again, there are workouts on the horizon.
This is what drives me nuts about some fans. Not singling you out but Ive seen this before. If people are willing to give up 2 first round picks a 2nd and perhaps more to move up 2 spots why is moving down 2 spots worth only an additional 2nd? This why we hold the cards, we show no interest the Rams have to decide if they want to move below us as Django said. We have in the past shown that we will move down lower in the draft to get more picks and could move down to the teens gaining picks next year.
Say we decide we don't want Griffin, either because the price is too steep or we simply don't want him, and the Rams trade with The Sinks and drop to #6. How about getting them to trade back up with us? They still get the guy they like and we drop to a position where Tannehill makes a bit more sense. We could probably get a 2nd out of them if we tossed in one of our 4th rounders along with the swapped position.
As was said, free agency is going to make all the difference in the word. The team that gets Flynn is out of the hunt to move up and just by the nature of the signing will allow Heck to better gauge who is going to draft who, at least in and around our draft position.
Is #6 too high for Tannehill? I don't know, again, there are workouts on the horizon.
This is what drives me nuts about some fans. Not singling you out but Ive seen this before. If people are willing to give up 2 first round picks a 2nd and perhaps more to move up 2 spots why is moving down 2 spots worth only an additional 2nd? This why we hold the cards, we show no interest the Rams have to decide if they want to move below us as Django said. We have in the past shown that we will move down lower in the draft to get more picks and could move down to the teens gaining picks next year.
OK....I said possibly get a 2nd....what's wrong with that Nick??
What are you talking about?? Explain what you would want.
This is what drives me nuts about some fans. Not singling you out but Ive seen this before. If people are willing to give up 2 first round picks a 2nd and perhaps more to move up 2 spots why is moving down 2 spots worth only an additional 2nd? This why we hold the cards, we show no interest the Rams have to decide if they want to move below us as Django said. We have in the past shown that we will move down lower in the draft to get more picks and could move down to the teens gaining picks next year.
possible because other then the Bengals, we are the only team with two 1st round picks this year and the highest we could hope to get 'this' year would be a 2nd round pick, but that would also come with additional picks, this year and a first next year.
<see last years trade and depending on how far we draft down, (if) then you can get a picture of what we might receive.
Quote: If all those picks are the ones this year, and it was draft day and WAS still had no QB, I'd do that. We still have a second, two fourths, two 6ths, and whatever comps we get. I'd like to solve the QB position for that. WR depth is great in this draft and we can get two good guys in the fourth, or 1 good one and a RT with the other pick. Target a DE in the second... maybe Curry. 6th round pick a RB (Ganaway, Herron) and BPA the rest of the way out (FS Hartman, OLB D. Davis, ILB JMJ, DT Jaye Howard, DE Julian Miller)
1 (+1+3+5) QB RGIII 2 DE Vinny Curry 4 WR AJ Jenkins 4 OT Andrew Datko 6 RB Terrence Ganaway 6 OLB Demario Davis 6c DT Jaye Howard 6c WR Greg Childs 7c FS Tysyn Hartman 7c DE Julian Miller
Now that's what I like...Good one...
SHOW me what we could still do even giving up whatever picks to move to 2...Instead everyone wants to just call it "Giving up our entire draft"
With ESPN now reporting that the Rams are going to trade the #2, it looks more like a deal will get done before drat day (and likely before free agency). The Rams know the best deal they are going to get will come before free agency with more bidders than after with less. RGIII's stock isn't going higher and selling here will maximize their potential return. Of course, my guess is that this early sale also leaves the Browns out (I don't think we make a play before draft day). My money is still on the Redskins.
again its not just you but as someone said just below your post I would want a 1st next year along with moving down. I guess it just seems that I see some undervalue our pick which is very high is all Im saying.
I guess getting the 6th and 34th isnt bad but If people would give up the 4th the 22nd and the 36th pick to move up 2 I would want something more then just a 2nd or some have said even just a 3rd to move down because we could move below them (#6) and get so much more.
Quote: Claiborne and a DE worth a damn would take this D to another level...
Would have a dominant pass rush... 2 Corners great against the run... 2 Corners who need zero help over the top... Ward comes closer to the LOS...
Win Win Win...
I'm all over this!
Mario Williams in free agency and Morris Claiborne (I'd take him at 4) and Luke Kuechly (I'd give up the 22 and a 4th to move up and get him) in the draft?
Hmm, that'd be interesting to me!
I'd also like to get Stephen Hill but I think he could be the first WR taken ahead of Blackmon & Floyd.
I understand what you're saying about free agency possibly putting a damper on a trade for no. 2, but I still think no deal gets done before draft day. I just think the Rams are going to want that last second offer that has a little bit more.
I'd also like to get Stephen Hill but I think he could be the first WR taken ahead of Blackmon & Floyd.
Not sure what to say -- I'm not sure I've ever seen somebody overstate the importance of the combine by that much....
Somehow a 0.1 second difference in the 40 time is going to erase the fact that Blackmon and Floyd both almost had as many TDs as Hill had receptions?
Hill was in a system (option) that didn't really equate to him getting many chances, but his YPC, his speed and the fact that he laid out AT THE FREAKING COMBINE to make a catch is telling to me. He could have simply let the ball fall 'incomplete' but he laid out for it and made the catch. Plus, his height (6'-4") makes him a natural target.
The video of his runs and catching plus the on-air interview with the NFLN at the combine and some video highlights.
because of all the hype surrounding RG3,, does anyone actually think that the Colts go that direction rather than Luck?
I mean, seriously, the Hype is so strong about him,, what do you believe.. They pre-combine hype, or the post combine hype.
I mean, there was talk (not much, but some) that RG3 might not go in the top 5,, as the combine approached, more and more folks started to believe that he might be the Real Deal.
Personally, I don't think teams are susceptable to the hype. I think they look at what they see and hear from the guy and pretty much totally disregard what the pundits say.
If no one deals into no. 2 and 3, RGIII falls to us. Easy.
But, someone's going to trade with the Rams. If some other teams that are a little lower in the draft get wind that the Rams couldn't find another trade partner, they'll come calling.
And, if no one trades with the Rams, I gotta think the Vikings would be getting mad trade calls.
If I was Indy, I would take RG3 ahead of Luck because RG3 on that fast indy track is scary. RG3 has a much stronger arm and is a better deep ball passer and that is what Arians offense is all about, finding the home run.
Luck would be best suited for a pro set but you can put him in anything and he is gonna be pretty good. I dont think he is this perfect guy that some make him out to be but he is good.
Now when you start comparing all 3 QBs in Arm, accuracy, footwork, decision making, pocket presense, athleticism, leadership, intelligence, anticipation and then you throw in the systems they ran and experience and what you get is 3 guys that aren't nearly as far apart as it is made out to be.
Quote: If no one deals into no. 2 and 3, RGIII falls to us. Easy.
But, someone's going to trade with the Rams. If some other teams that are a little lower in the draft get wind that the Rams couldn't find another trade partner, they'll come calling.
And, if no one trades with the Rams, I gotta think the Vikings would be getting mad trade calls.
the problem with that thinking (and its no skin off my back either way) is that we've watched Quinn and Leinert drop. We've seen the big hype surrounding Rogers or Smith and then watched Rogers drop and end up Elite and Smith do nothing for 6 years...
Let's go back to Leaf vs Manning... at the time, the talk was that the Colts were having a hard time deciding between the two. They took manning and all that hype about Leaf Ha.. gone in 4 years.. Manning is heading to the HOF. (I still say that they weren't havng a hard time at all. They knew it was manning all the way, just can't prove it)
What I'm saying is, there have been a whole lotta guys that have flown up draft boards seemingly because of all the hype,, and ended up fallin flat on thier faces..
I really don't think that teams will fall for hype. and right now, Luck looks real.... the trouble is, I've fallin for RG3 also,, I think he's real.,
If I am Indy and I am hearing that the value for Griffin could be multiple firsts ... then I at least start to consider some more options.
If Washington would want to give up 2 firsts, a second, and a third for Griffin ... would they go 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and 2 thirds (if not a little more) for Luck?
If you are sitting there and you are Indy ... the #6 with an extra 2nd and third this year doesn't look so bad. But add the top 3 picks for next year from Washington and they would add a LOT of talent and fix a LOT of problems fast.
They would also have the ammunition to trade a few of those and move back up to grab Griffin with St. Louis ... or they could even trade down and look to draft a guy like Tannehill ... this would really only work if they thought Peyton could play a few more years ... but wow. (Just for a curveball).
I just keep thinking how funny it was when people suggested Andrew Luck could cost 3 first rounders. If the price of Griffin is 2 firsts and a second then Luck could cost 3 firsts plus another mid or high pick if not more...
Well, I think what'll be very telling is what happens with Manning. If they let him walk, gotta think they're going for Luck at no. 1. Ok, maybe RGIII at no. 1, but I doubt it.
Now, if they keep Manning, maybe they think about trading down. But, still, I sincerely doubt that, too.
I think Luck is pretty much a lock at no. 1. Picks 2, 3 and 4, though, could be pretty exciting.
Well what I am saying is if you believe all of this hype ... it's kinda silly.
What would you give up for Cam? 3 firsts? the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd when all are at the sixth spot of the round with another first?
How about Bradford? Would you give up the #4, #22 and the #37 (and it still might come up short...?)
Sanchez was had for a 1st, 2nd, and a few scrubbs. In hindsight that could have been a bad trade on Mangini ... but still.
Cassel PLAYED a year - looked somewhat legit - led the Pats to 11 wins .. and was had for a high second rounder ... and the chiefs got a few seasons out of Vrabel as well!
Even Jay Cutler ... who was a pro bowl quarterback ... was ransomed for only 2 firsts, a third and Orton and they had to give back a 5th rounder.
And yet ... when pro bowler Jay Cutler might have been the biggest deal in there .. he was already proven and he was only auctioned off for 2 firsts and a third. We would not only be able to offer more than that ... but it still wouldn't be enough.
So if all of a sudden the price for these top two picks really is that high ... then why wouldn't the Colts want to maximize that sort of value? (or the rams or whoever). It's obviously either just media driven speculation and frenzy to suggest that 2 firsts and a second isn't enough to move up two spots ... or it's really a seller's market.
Interesting but below that found this more interesting
Top QB prospects vs. 3rd down pressure
Player (Comp. pct.) QB Rating Robert Griffin III 20.0 15.1 Andrew Luck 50.0 139.1 Ryan Tannehill 25.0 33.3 Brandon Weeden 33.0 33.0
Ok, one of your data sets is lying. Django's has a reference. Can you show your reference? It's impossible to have a QB rating of 15 with zero INTs. In the pros, minimum QB rating for not completing any passes is 39.5 or something like that, and college rating goes above 158.3, which is NFL max.
Quote: Sanchez was had for a 1st, 2nd, and a few scrubbs. In hindsight that could have been a bad trade on Mangini ... but still.
That was a bad trade among the many other Mangini made that year. While we were trading down and getting fifths and sixths. The Patriots were getting 4ths and 5ths with later picks.
Interesting but below that found this more interesting
Top QB prospects vs. 3rd down pressure
Player (Comp. pct.) QB Rating Robert Griffin III 20.0 15.1 Andrew Luck 50.0 139.1 Ryan Tannehill 25.0 33.3 Brandon Weeden 33.0 33.0
Ok, one of your data sets is lying. Django's has a reference. Can you show your reference? It's impossible to have a QB rating of 15 with zero INTs. In the pros, minimum QB rating for not completing any passes is 39.5 or something like that, and college rating goes above 158.3, which is NFL max.
Its on the same page of his link just scroll down I didnt find it he did.
Quote: again its not just you but as someone said just below your post I would want a 1st next year along with moving down. I guess it just seems that I see some undervalue our pick which is very high is all Im saying.
I guess getting the 6th and 34th isnt bad but If people would give up the 4th the 22nd and the 36th pick to move up 2 I would want something more then just a 2nd or some have said even just a 3rd to move down because we could move below them (#6) and get so much more.
It just doesn't work that way....plus, I'd rather have a 2nd this year over a 1st next year.
It's time we as Browns fans quit worrying about next year and start demanding more "This" year. IMO there is no future for a few of these guys if they don't start getting it done this year.
Quote: again its not just you but as someone said just below your post I would want a 1st next year along with moving down. I guess it just seems that I see some undervalue our pick which is very high is all Im saying.
I guess getting the 6th and 34th isnt bad but If people would give up the 4th the 22nd and the 36th pick to move up 2 I would want something more then just a 2nd or some have said even just a 3rd to move down because we could move below them (#6) and get so much more.
It just doesn't work that way....plus, I'd rather have a 2nd this year over a 1st next year.
It's time we as Browns fans quit worrying about next year and start demanding more "This" year. IMO there is no future for a few of these guys if they don't start getting it done this year.
I don't agree. I would rather have a 1st next year than a 2nd this year and it doesn't matter which teams' picks we are talking about... as long as we are going by current information (and not comparing #33 overall this near to #32 overall next year or something silly like that.)
Quote: I guess getting the 6th and 34th isnt bad but If people would give up the 4th the 22nd and the 36th pick to move up 2 I would want something more then just a 2nd or some have said even just a 3rd to move down because we could move below them (#6) and get so much more.
It doesn't work that way...
Much of any trade up is what the trading up team is willing to give for the move...And whether it's exaggerated or not...Much more is the position u r moving up for...QB will always demand the most...The position is that coveted...
Quote: It just doesn't work that way....plus, I'd rather have a 2nd this year over a 1st next year.
It's time we as Browns fans quit worrying about next year and start demanding more "This" year. IMO there is no future for a few of these guys if they don't start getting it done this year.
Remember that the trade we made last year had this year in mind. We got the Falcons 1st rounder. You can never stop thinking about the future of the franchise. You balance them both - like we did last year. We got the second round pick last year and this year's first rounder from Atlanta for that Julio Jones trade. We still have a 4th rounder from Atlanta this year too.
Who was that QB out of LSU a couple years ago, Savage was in love with, I remember poeple yelling...do what ya need to do savage get him...cant miss, great arm strengh, smart, 6-something 280 # defensives cant tackle him, ...Seems the media created a # 1 draft choice out of nothing, ...HUMMMMMMMMMM wonder if that smoke getting blown up our..........AGAIN.....Now I dont know if RG3 is legit or not it's a hugh gamble for this team to recover from if we miss on this guy, we dont need any maybe we need sure things, or as close of a sure thing one can get in the draft. anyway every year the media creates a top 5 pick out of somebody who has no reason to be in the top 20......media creates, they dont care if he can play...actually they hope he cant...gives them another story on his way down...2 stories for one....Media wins...team loses...Who was that QB the raiders couldnt miss with.....how'd that work for them the last few years
It sure is a tough call. We have some good low picks on one hand and on the other one of the most gifted, likeable kids to come down the pike in a long time!
Everytime I hear the young man even talk he wins me over a bit more! I'm glad it's not up to me to make this call!
He should have been a great QB, but he wasn't. It happens ...... just like it happens at every other position .......
Like it happened at WR, with Braylon Edwards ....... or DE, with Courtney Brown ....... or QB, with Brady Quinn ........ or RB, with Will Green ........ and so on .........
It might even happen more at QB, because great QBs are so damned hard to find.
When you do find one, though, your team is improved more than any other position can do ...... and usually for a very long time. A Franchise QB, when you can find one, usually has a pretty long shelf life ..... going 10-15 years routinely.
In today's NFL, with today's passing rules, if you don't have a Franchise level QB, then you better be doing all you can to find one.
I’m not sure whether this qualifies Solomon Wilcots for a prize or for a psychiatrist, but ...
The former Bengals and Steelers defensive back has done more color commentary for expansion-era Browns TV games than anyone.
When we bumped into Wilcots at the Super Bowl, naturally we wanted to know what he sees between the earholes of the orange helmets he has been following for so long.
Add his name to the list of insiders viewing the hiring of a name offensive coordinator as a bright idea.
“Brad Childress gives Pat Shurmur someone to help him manage it all,” Wilcots said. “A first-year head coach can be like a first-year quarterback. They go through some growing pains.
“I saw Jason Garrett go through that in Dallas.”
Wilcots’ Sunday in-season gigs are with CBS. This time of year, he can be heard on Sirius NFL Radio on a show with Marty Schottenheimer, Gil Brandt and Carl Banks.
Brandt is the NFL Draft brains of that outfit. The other day, we quoted him suggesting that the Browns should invest their Nos. 4, 22 and 37 overall picks on players to beef up the team around quarterback Colt McCoy.
Wilcots is of a different mind.
“Obviously,” Wilcots said, “they need more weapons. Colt McCoy is good but they can do better. Let’s be honest.”
He sees Heisman Trophy winner Robert Griffin III as the likely best option:
“RG-III is in their wheelhouse. We need to find out more about him, but he seems to be all that they would want in that West Coast system.
“Really good arm. Smart kid. Athletic. But they’re going to have to get some weapons around him, because they’re waiting for some wide receivers to show up.”
The 2011 arsenal wasn’t quite bad enough to get the Browns the No. 2 overall pick that would have given them Griffin free and clear. Trading up from No. 4 might be their only way to the quarterback from Baylor.
Actually, Wilcots has seen it work, sort of, with shaky quarterback play. He joined the Steelers in 1992, when first-year head coach Bill Cowher went 11-5 with a platoon of Neil O’Donnell and Bubby Brister. But then, Pittsburgh got pounded in the first round, 24-3, by the Bills.
“There’s more evaluation on the Browns’ part that needs to be done,” Wilcots said, “but if they feel that RG-III is their guy, they shouldn’t hesitate to go get him, and they have more than any other team to be able to go get him.”
Wilcots has been in Berea talking to the Browns’ who’s-who since the time they were a playoff team.
“I thought they were real close when they had Butch Davis,” he said. “Butch was really close.”
Davis’ 2002 Browns had a 17-point lead in a playoff game at Pittsburgh. That game and the next season went south, but that put Davis really close to drafting Ben Roethlisberger in 2004.
“We all knew Ben Roethlisberger was going to be a player,” Wilcots said. “I’d watched him for years, since he was a freshman at Miami, Ohio, and I knew he was going to be a great player in this league. Being right there in Cleveland, you should know that.”
Davis flew to Oxford the weekend before the draft, convincing Miami’s coaches Roethlisberger would be the Browns’ pick at No. 7 overall.
On draft day, Davis traded up to No. 6 to take tight end Kellen Winslow Jr., leaving Roethlisberger for Pittsburgh at No. 11.
Roethlisberger’s road has hit a few rocky spots. His popularity in Pittsburgh is mixed. During a week in Indianapolis, I saw Steelers jerseys all over the place. “POLAMALU” was the most common jersey. I saw “ROETHLISBERGER” as often as I saw “McCOY” — not once.
On the other hand, he is 2-1 in Super Bowls, and the endless stream of quarterbacks the Browns have used instead are a combined 47-97 since 2002.
“There has been too much turnover in the front office and the coaching staff, and that to me has been their biggest problem,” Wilcots said. “You can get players, but you need a system that is consistent to be able to plug those players in to.
“They have flip-flopped from a 4-3 to a 3-4, back to a 4-3. They have done that about five times since 1999.
“If you’re trying to screw up an organization, then do that.”
Holmgren has been caught up in the problem, keeping and then dumping Eric Mangini’s 3-4, and now is trying to fix it and grow it with continuity.
The network guys get exclusive access during the week to coaches, players and big brass. As often as Wilcots has come around, the Browns are practically family.
“In talking to Coach Holmgren,” Wilcots said, “he feels they’re close, but they need more talent, particularly on offense. They need some weapons to get the ball in the end zone.”
Does that start with Robert Griffin III? That’s a “yes” from one TV analyst who has called way too many bad Browns games.
Wilcots has indeed seen some bad football from this team. You can like him or not on the broadcasts but I'll bet his evaluations are pretty much spot on.
A huge moment for this organization. Hit it and the teams fortunes change. Miss and we are mired in the SOS for a good long period!
Yeah, he has seen tons of bad Browns football over the years.
The thing that sucks for him ..... let's say that we were to get RG3, and improve tremendously ........ he would probably never get to call another one of our games, because we'd get higher ranked announce teams. lol
Defense is easiest to impact game outcomes. I would be giddy too. I am OK with RGTrey but not at ANY price. If they never score, you always win. How much do we have to do to "prop up" even a superb QB with the current personnel? I think at least three, RT, RG, and one impact wideout at a minimum, to make the QB viable and consistently able to perform. You can't buy everything at once in a single draft. But a great QB makes one side of the ball better, and one who can (out)run and scramble has something you need until you get better IMO.
I heard the original interview on the radio in my car and thought he made a mistake when he was drawing up the play but I was driving so I wasn't playing that close attention. zThen had no way to go back and double check if I was wrong or he was. Watching the video turns out I was right. RGIII didn't call the right play.
Mariucci calls: Brown right, f-short, 2 jet flanker drive RGIII: Blue right, f-short, 2jet flanker drive
I don't know how significant that error is. I don't know what the color means and Mariucci didn't explain it.
Not necessarily the most complex thing in the world, but I still love seeing football people talk football with other football people. I think it would be so fascinating to sit in a film session with an NFL team.
Who was that QB out of LSU a couple years ago, Savage was in love with, I remember poeple yelling...do what ya need to do savage get him...cant miss, great arm strengh, smart, 6-something 280 # defensives cant tackle him, ...Seems the media created a # 1 draft choice out of nothing, ...HUMMMMMMMMMM wonder if that smoke getting blown up our..........AGAIN.....Now I dont know if RG3 is legit or not it's a hugh gamble for this team to recover from if we miss on this guy, we dont need any maybe we need sure things, or as close of a sure thing one can get in the draft. anyway every year the media creates a top 5 pick out of somebody who has no reason to be in the top 20......media creates, they dont care if he can play...actually they hope he cant...gives them another story on his way down...2 stories for one....Media wins...team loses...Who was that QB the raiders couldnt miss with.....how'd that work for them the last few years
Russell's problem was that he was a lazy pile of lard. He cared more about his purple drank than being an NFL QB. Nobody has questioned RGIII's desire and work ethic as far as I can see.
First, you had people like Heldawg saying he has a "weak arm" (lol). Now, everyone has seen that he has an extremely strong arm.
Then, everyone decided he was a one-year wonder. Simply showing people the stats on how he has performed at a high level yet significantly improved his game year after year has, for the most part, quieted those claims.
The next manufactured complaint was that he "tucks and runs too quickly," which, in addition to being disputed by those of us that actually watched him play games this season, has been repeatedly been pointed out to be a strength by all the draft analysts... that when he scrambles, he keeps his eyes downfield and looks to pass.
Then people were trying to say he can't learn an offense. This was due to the fact that the coach that his coach used to work for didn't use a playbook. And that is indicative of Griffin's limitations, why?
Then, you had people deciding he was too short and now we see that he's more than an inch taller than Colt (who was 6'1" 1/8 at the combine to Griffin's 6'2" 3/8 at the combine.)
They are really all baseless speculative claims. And now, somehow, despite the fact that he had just about the best numbers you can possibly have in college football as a QB, led his perennial doormat school's program to respectability and an all time high win total in a BCS conference despite an incredibly bad defense and shaky-at-best OL, has shown that he has every physical skill you could hope to have in a QB, shows intelligence, confidence, and competence in interviews and press conferences, and is still only thought of as the second-best prospect at his position, people have decided he is a creation of media hype.
Ryan Tannehill had the seventh-best completion percentage in his conference and sixth-best QB rating in the Big XII among those passers with enough attempts to qualify (ESPN stats.) He's got 19 total starts at QB. His team drastically underperformed this season, going from preseason number 9 ranking to winning their bowl game vs. Northwestern of all teams to finish at 7-6. He played WR for a year and a half because he lost his QB competition with Jerrod Johnson, and people are talking about him being picked as high as 6? 4? GMAB. Why? Because he has taken more snaps under center? Because he has short accuracy and a strong arm? Because he's 6'4"? If any QB's draft stock is a result of manufactured hype, it's Tannehill. Griffin answers every question posed to him. Tannehill has just broken his foot working out.
What more does this guy have to do to show he is legit? Heal the blind?
Quote: Then people were trying to say he can't learn an offense. This was due to the fact that the coach that his coach used to work for didn't use a playbook. And that is indicative of Griffin's limitations, why?
this is the one that is somewhat true and is part of the larger issue. that he played in the spread-offense that he will not in the NFL.
it's not that he can't/won't be able to do it and adjust. it's just that there is some risk there. i don't consider Tedford's offense a true-spread offense, so it's hard to nail down a spread-offense QB who became elite because of his throwing.
Sam Bradford - had a pretty good '10 for a rookie. had a worse '11 than Colt did. He could prove '11 was an aberration.
Cam Newton - had a great start of the season. continued to find success during the season, but it had more to do with his running than throwing after teams figured out how to clamp him down. RGIII won't be running like Cam. He, of course, still has plenty of time to make adjustments and get there.
So, RGIII could become an elite guy. He seems to have the skillset. But, there is also significant risk in that he will do so. I like the idea of taking on this risk (it'd be a fun ride at the very least), but really do not want to overpay the Rams to do it.
Who was that QB out of LSU a couple years ago, Savage was in love with, I remember poeple yelling...do what ya need to do savage get him...cant miss, great arm strengh, smart, 6-something 280 # defensives cant tackle him, ...Seems the media created a # 1 draft choice out of nothing, ...HUMMMMMMMMMM wonder if that smoke getting blown up our..........AGAIN.....Now I dont know if RG3 is legit or not it's a hugh gamble for this team to recover from if we miss on this guy, we dont need any maybe we need sure things, or as close of a sure thing one can get in the draft. anyway every year the media creates a top 5 pick out of somebody who has no reason to be in the top 20......media creates, they dont care if he can play...actually they hope he cant...gives them another story on his way down...2 stories for one....Media wins...team loses...Who was that QB the raiders couldnt miss with.....how'd that work for them the last few years
Russell's problem was that he was a lazy pile of lard. He cared more about his purple drank than being an NFL QB. Nobody has questioned RGIII's desire and work ethic as far as I can see.
First, you had people like Heldawg saying he has a "weak arm" (lol). Now, everyone has seen that he has an extremely strong arm.
Then, everyone decided he was a one-year wonder. Simply showing people the stats on how he has performed at a high level yet significantly improved his game year after year has, for the most part, quieted those claims.
The next manufactured complaint was that he "tucks and runs too quickly," which, in addition to being disputed by those of us that actually watched him play games this season, has been repeatedly been pointed out to be a strength by all the draft analysts... that when he scrambles, he keeps his eyes downfield and looks to pass.
Then people were trying to say he can't learn an offense. This was due to the fact that the coach that his coach used to work for didn't use a playbook. And that is indicative of Griffin's limitations, why?
Then, you had people deciding he was too short and now we see that he's more than an inch taller than Colt (who was 6'1" 1/8 at the combine to Griffin's 6'2" 3/8 at the combine.)
They are really all baseless speculative claims. And now, somehow, despite the fact that he had just about the best numbers you can possibly have in college football as a QB, led his perennial doormat school's program to respectability and an all time high win total in a BCS conference despite an incredibly bad defense and shaky-at-best OL, has shown that he has every physical skill you could hope to have in a QB, shows intelligence, confidence, and competence in interviews and press conferences, and is still only thought of as the second-best prospect at his position, people have decided he is a creation of media hype.
Ryan Tannehill had the seventh-best completion percentage in his conference and sixth-best QB rating in the Big XII among those passers with enough attempts to qualify (ESPN stats.) He's got 19 total starts at QB. His team drastically underperformed this season, going from preseason number 9 ranking to winning their bowl game vs. Northwestern of all teams to finish at 7-6. He played WR for a year and a half because he lost his QB competition with Jerrod Johnson, and people are talking about him being picked as high as 6? 4? GMAB. Why? Because he has taken more snaps under center? Because he has short accuracy and a strong arm? Because he's 6'4"? If any QB's draft stock is a result of manufactured hype, it's Tannehill. Griffin answers every question posed to him. Tannehill has just broken his foot working out.
What more does this guy have to do to show he is legit? Heal the blind?
Quote: Russell's problem was that he was a lazy pile of lard. He cared more about his purple drank than being an NFL QB. Nobody has questioned RGIII's desire and work ethic as far as I can see.
I could be wrong about this, but I don't remember anyone questioning Russells work ethic either back then.. In fact, Savage knew Russell for years, said he was a winner, can't miss guy. I don't remember one pundit saying russell was lazy, or didn't work hard.
Quote: I could be wrong about this, but I don't remember anyone questioning Russells work ethic either back then.. In fact, Savage knew Russell for years, said he was a winner, can't miss guy. I don't remember one pundit saying russell was lazy, or didn't work hard.
I'm guessing part of it has to do with the differences in coaching staffs. He might he worked better under Les Miles than Tom Cable/the Coach of USC (or whoever was the Raiders).
The other part probably has a lot to do with all that money he received. It might have been too much, and made his either content or cocky
EDIT: And this is not defending Russell, just stating a possibility. No grown adult should have to be motivated when they're getting paid all that money
what I don't understand is why in the world are we talking about Jamarcus Russell? He's big and took snaps from under center and slurred his words and went number 1 overall, so why aren't we comparing him to Andrew Luck?
Seems silly to include extra words with no meaning in an already verbose system.
As for Russell, Savage was all over him because of knowing him since he was a kid. I don't remember what the pundits were saying but I remember (I think quite clearly) that >2/3 of this message board was like "Dear God, NO! please don't trade up for Russell".
that draft was probably 40% Thomas, 40% Peterson, and 20% Quinn. i don't remember a diehard Russell supporter (though there is usually one). i do remember that Russell "solidified" his draft spot because he got to go against the ND defense in the bowl game while Quinn had to go against the LSU defense (as they were consensus #1/2 QBs that year).
Quote: yea.. i noticed the brown-blue mix up too.. he knew the routes though.. although it was a fairly easy play to remember.
Yeah, I like RG3 a lot, but him remembering that play didn't impress me all that much. Hell, I remembered it enough to recite it back and I'm definitely not an Xs and Os guy with no training. I don't think RG3 will have any problem picking up a west coast offensive system.
Actually, what impressed me more in that video was that he was fully aware of how Mooch was attempting to distract him after showing him the play in order to get him to forget it. I think he laughed because it was such a transparent attempt at manipulation.
Quote: Actually, what impressed me more in that video was that he was fully aware of how Mooch was attempting to distract him after showing him the play in order to get him to forget it. I think he laughed because it was such a transparent attempt at manipulation.
I think that all that means is that his agent had coached him up for the interviews. What Mooch did is something teams have been doing for years in interviews. I am not impressed that RGIII recognized that. Heck I saw it coming the second that Mooch want to learn a play? I would have been very disappointed if RGIII got confused by that ploy.
ESPN's John Clayton insists the price for the No. 2 overall pick has risen so high that only the Browns and Redskins have the ammo to trade up for Robert Griffin III. The Browns boast the trump card with a higher pick in addition to an extra first-rounder, leaving the Redskins under pressure to put together a Ricky Williams-type package of picks in 2012 and 2013. Working against the Dolphins, Seahawks, and "surprise" teams is the sentiment that the Rams may only identify six-to-seven blue-chip players at the top of the draft. The further away from No. 2, the less likely St. Louis is to land their top target.
Actually, what impressed me more in that video was that he was fully aware of how Mooch was attempting to distract him after showing him the play in order to get him to forget it. I think he laughed because it was such a transparent attempt at manipulation.
If you watch and nfl draft coverage.. you KNOW they will do that.. Mooch has done it.. Gruden is notorious for doing it.. As soon as mooch erased the board.. I knew he was gonna go back to it. Pretty predictable even for a kid. lol.
Quote: Well, then the Vikings' pick might get interesting. They might be willing to drop a little farther than the Rams are.
The Vikings would be idiots IMO if they don't get Kalil.
Quote: Mariucci calls: Brown right, f-short, 2 jet flanker drive RGIII: Blue right, f-short, 2jet flanker drive
I don't know how significant that error is. I don't know what the color means and Mariucci didn't explain it.
It means he'd rather play for the Colts than the Browns.
Honestly though, in high-school ... we had some color combinations that were called out in plays, and the only thing that mattered was the first letter .. like "Red" meant right or "Blue" would be back, etc. I remember our linebackers used to have fun when calling out bluff audibles, and would yell out things like, "Jade!" and "Fushia!".
Quote: Mariucci calls: Brown right, f-short, 2 jet flanker drive RGIII: Blue right, f-short, 2jet flanker drive
I don't know how significant that error is. I don't know what the color means and Mariucci didn't explain it.
It means he'd rather play for the Colts than the Browns.
Honestly though, in high-school ... we had some color combinations that were called out in plays, and the only thing that mattered was the first letter .. like "Red" meant right or "Blue" would be back, etc. I remember our linebackers used to have fun when calling out bluff audibles, and would yell out things like, "Jade!" and "Fushia!".
I did that all the time on d, and often on offense.
That's assuming the Rams don't take Kalil with number 2. I think they'd be more likely to go with Blackmon, but you never know.
So, if Kalil is off the board at 3, the Vikings might consider Claiborne. But, if someone like Miami or Seattle comes calling with a nice trade package, they might move down with the hopes of landing someone else.
Quote: ESPN's John Clayton insists the price for the No. 2 overall pick has risen so high that only the Browns and Redskins have the ammo to trade up for Robert Griffin III. The Browns boast the trump card with a higher pick in addition to an extra first-rounder, leaving the Redskins under pressure to put together a Ricky Williams-type package of picks in 2012 and 2013. Working against the Dolphins, Seahawks, and "surprise" teams is the sentiment that the Rams may only identify six-to-seven blue-chip players at the top of the draft. The further away from No. 2, the less likely St. Louis is to land their top target.
If the Rams do not trade the pick before free agency, then the Redskins sign Flynn, the price for us to trade up to #2 goes way down.
Sounds to me like the Rams are trying to pressure the Skins into making a move now. I could see the Skins skipping the deal and nobody trading up with the Rams and the #3 pick being the one that everyone now wants to trade for.
Quote: what I don't understand is why in the world are we talking about Jamarcus Russell? He's big and took snaps from under center and slurred his words and went number 1 overall, so why aren't we comparing him to Andrew Luck?
Because it's relevant. Same kinda situation as we have with Luck and RG3.
What's it worth to move up to get him? What will it take. The point is the situations were similar in that the Hype for both Russell and RG3 is insane.
I don't remember who it was back then,, but plenty of folks on here wanted us to mortgage the future to find a way to get Russell..
Quote: what I don't understand is why in the world are we talking about Jamarcus Russell? He's big and took snaps from under center and slurred his words and went number 1 overall, so why aren't we comparing him to Andrew Luck?
Because it's relevant. Same kinda situation as we have with Luck and RG3.
What's it worth to move up to get him? What will it take. The point is the situations were similar in that the Hype for both Russell and RG3 is insane.
I don't remember who it was back then,, but plenty of folks on here wanted us to mortgage the future to find a way to get Russell..
Quote: I don't know how significant that error is. I don't know what the color means and Mariucci didn't explain it.
I think if you get the color wrong it ends up being a pick six. I'm just throwing this thought out there to quell some of the hype
What is the most you guys would give up for this guy? No matter what happens there is going to be criticism of the front of office. Either they didn't get him or they paid too much. Where do you draw the line? I would give up two firsts and a third. No more.
I would think about 3 firsts ....... as long as I liked his visit with the team. I think that's where he either 100% sells the team on him, or does not.
If the team is convinced that he is a franchise guy, then what price is too high?
Quote: I believe if the Redskins sign a QB then we won't have to trade up to 2.
I'ma gonna go ahead and disagree, Steve.
I'm certain that no matter what, SOMEONE is gonna go to #2 to get Griffin. Absolutely the price goes down if the 'Skins drop out, but there are just too many teams that would want the guy.
Remember what happens if the Redskins do sign a QB...it means another team that needed a QB didn't get that player, bringing that team back into play for RG3.
I really don't see a viable scenario where Griffin goes past #2.
Maybe we could give picks to teams not to bid. Give Miami a 3rd not to bid, etc?? It would be cheaper. Maybe I should have put that in purple.
I agree. I think a team is going to have to end up in the two slot. The Rams aren't going to just not take anything then pass the guy down to the Vikings who could start the bidding for a 3rd round pick.
Why wouldn't you want to drop one slot and trade the pick to the Browns for a 3rd rounder??
Didinger: Browns Favorite to Trade for Robert Griffin
Published Feb. 29, 2012 By Walt - @walterfootball
Ray Didinger, an NFL Hall of Fame writer, considers the Browns to be the favorite to trade with the Rams for Robert Griffin.
"I'll be shocked if Griffin isn't drafted by the Browns," Didinger said as a guest on Comcast Sportsnet's Daily News Live. He didn't offer a reason for this, but he's well connected, having covered the NFL for more than 25 years. He opined that both Griffin and Andrew Luck will be special players in the league.
Didinger has written for the Philadelphia Daily News and knows the Eagles better than anyone. He said that the Eagles are unlikely to trade for Griffin despite meeting with him during the 2012 NFL Scouting Combine. If they did, however, it would be a way for Andy Reid to stay in Philadelphia awhile longer.
"Trading for Griffin could be a way for Andy to receive an extension," Didinger said. "He would say, 'Look, we're building something here.'"
The Eagles won't be able to acquire Griffin, however, because the compensation would be too much. Instead, Didinger expects Philadelphia to go with a defensive tackle at No. 15.
"Dontari Poe won't be there," Didinger said. "Devon Still would fit what Andy is looking for."
Quote: I believe if the Redskins sign a QB then we won't have to trade up to 2.
I'ma gonna go ahead and disagree, Steve.
I'm certain that no matter what, SOMEONE is gonna go to #2 to get Griffin. Absolutely the price goes down if the 'Skins drop out, but there are just too many teams that would want the guy.
Remember what happens if the Redskins do sign a QB...it means another team that needed a QB didn't get that player, bringing that team back into play for RG3.
I really don't see a viable scenario where Griffin goes past #2.
Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but as mentioned several times the Rams aren't willing to move down indefinitely. They want an elite player.
I really think Miami isn't a player for Griffin. With their OC and their HC having coached two of the QB candidates last year, I can't see them realistically giving STL the value they want to move down to number 8.
The next team to trade up to there would be Buffalo. What would they have to give up to make it worth it for STL to go all the way down to 10? Would this and next years' first plus either Kyle Williams or Stevie Johnson be worth it for them? They're not trading Dareus and they don't really have anyone else worth a damn. I just don't see Buffalo as able to offer proper compensation for that move. Maybe if they think Buffalo is destined for another 4-win season they may think about it, but it seems like too big a risk to me.
The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think STL wants to move past 6. I think they're even iffy there. But take WAS out and consider Miami as a non-option and I think they have to sit tight and take Kalil or Blackmon.
Quote: Cost to acquire pick from Rams might drain Dolphins' interest
It's no secret the St. Louis Rams fully intend to trade the No. 2 overall pick of the 2012 NFL Draft, and equally well known a handful of teams have interest in working their way up for the chance to select Baylor quarterback Robert Griffin III.
One of those teams -- the Miami Dolphins -- owns the No. 8 overall pick and a desire to land a franchise-caliber quarterback.
Lombardi: Seller beware The Rams boast a highly lucrative No. 2 pick, but Michael Lombardi says St. Louis better get huge returns for RGIII. More ... While the Dolphins have been reported to have interest in dealing with the Rams, a team source told The Sun-Sentinel the motivation to give the package of picks required to land Griffin III “isn’t very high.”
The source told the Sun-Sentinel that the Rams are asking for a bundle of picks equivalent to the value of the No. 1 overall pick in the draft.
The Dolphins, however, might have other designs on how to fill their quarterback void. Many consider the Dolphins as among the favorites to land Peyton Manning if he is released by the Indianapolis Colts, or as a destination for impending free agent Matt Flynn of the Green Bay Packers.
Flynn's former offensive coordinator in Green Bay, Joe Philbin, was hired as the Dolphins' head coach.
The other "known" teams involved in trade talks with the Rams include the Cleveland Browns and Washington Redskins. All three teams have had preliminary discussions with the Rams, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
The Washington Post reported Tuesday that the Redskins, picking sixth overall, are prepared to give up a significant bundle of picks in order to move up to the No. 2 pick.
Quote: Ray Didinger, an NFL Hall of Fame writer, considers the Browns to be the favorite to trade with the Rams for Robert Griffin.
My first thought...who is Ray Didinger?
My second thought, in Cleveland, Ray Didinger is "nobody" and his opinions are meaningless.
Tracking down the sources to these "hype" stories exposes the media for what it is...dishonest writers willing to say or claim anything, to get a headline.
This headline appeared in the PD this morning...
...Cleveland Browns have had preliminary talks with the Rams about trading up to No. 2 for Griffin III, report says...
The headline sites a source..."report says" ...I decide to find this report.
MaryK says the report came from "the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported Tuesday".
Here is that so called, "report"...
Rams use combine to plan for trade
February 28, 2012 12:25 am
INDIANAPOLIS • Kevin Demoff, the Rams' executive vice president of football operations, drove home from the NFL scouting combine early Monday evening secure in the knowledge that the Rams had laid the groundwork for trading out of the No. 2 overall spot in the draft, and that Baylor quarterback Robert Griffin III had done everything possible (short of throwing) to make himself worth trading up for to the No. 2 spot.
Chalk up "reports" elsewhere that the Rams had "decided" to trade the pick as the "non-news" of the day.
Throughout the combine, the Rams have made no secret of the fact that they are shopping the pick. But if they don't receive an offer they like, they're not going to trade the pick. Simple as that.
As one team source said, "It's not like we're going to trade the pick for a seventh-rounder."
As to what it will take for someone to move up to No. 2, that remains to be seen. It's all speculation at this point. The Rams have had very preliminary discussions with Cleveland (at No. 4), Washington (at No. 6), and Miami (at No. 8), as well as some quarterback-needy teams outside the top 10.
Nothing resembling an offer has been made on either side of the fence. Such talks might not heat up until the NFL owners' meetings at the end of March. Which would be after Indianapolis decides what to do with Peyton Manning; after Green Bay makes a decision on whether to franchise Matt Flynn; after the March 13 start of free agency; and after Griffin holds his pro day and throws on March 21.
For now, the early front-runner for Griffin probably is Washington, in large part because of the good relationship between team executives (Washington's Bruce Allen and Demoff) and coaches (Jeff Fisher and Washington's Mike Shanahan).
So, we have a report that is based on hearsay and no sources, resulting in a RUMOR...and that rumor spreads like wildfire and becomes fact to those living in a fantasy world where sources don't matter.
IMO, the Rams are hyping this thing..because they have NO OFFERS. ...they might be getting a little nervous resorting to pushing unsourced stories or just making sources up, knowing the media will carry their water, sources or not.
This thing is going to drag into late March, so we need to prepare ourselves and take everything that appears in print, with a grain of salt, unless a specific source is named...or we hear the news from Holmgren.
I don't think it is all about this year as much as total value....Stl. is not a year away...or a player away...its going to need to build from the ground up...they have maybe 20 players that they feel they can build around...
If the Redskins were to just offer 10 first round picks over the next 12 years....You have to take it...doesn't matter that the Skins might be drafting #32 every year from now till 2024.
Fisher will put his stamp on this team over the next 3 years so 3 first round picks over the next 3 years would appeal to him....6 first rounders to build around....Letting Fisher move up or down has he sees fit.
I just don't think its as simple as 2 first this year might be more valuable in the short term than 1 and 1.....but what if the offer is 1 and 1 and 1 with a couple of mid rounders thrown in as well. The Skins are known for giving up draft picks, and using free agency to fill gaps.
All that being said...I think he will be a Brown if they want him.... everyone else will just be driving up the price a little higher than most would like.
Quote: Nothing resembling an offer has been made on either side of the fence. Such talks might not heat up until the NFL owners' meetings at the end of March. Which would be after Indianapolis decides what to do with Peyton Manning; after Green Bay makes a decision on whether to franchise Matt Flynn; after the March 13 start of free agency; and after Griffin holds his pro day and throws on March 21.
and a gigantic bucket of water just got tossed on the SuperHype Bonfire
Quote: The Skins are known for giving up draft picks, and using free agency to fill gaps.
jc...
The Browns, since 1999, have tried to build themselves a winner the same way Dan Snyder and the Redskins have...doing some trading of draft picks but especially by using free agency to fill gaps.
How has that philosophy worked for the Browns and the Redskins?
That was the way the Browns operated until Holmgren and Heckert arrived. But all that changed when H & H changed the philosophy for building the Browns, when they arrived in 2010.
H & H stated, they will rebuild the Browns via the draft, along with selective free agency deals and they have done just that since taking over.
It only took two seasons to show that rebuilding the Browns via the draft, works as the pass defense went from being below average to the #2 pass defense in the NFL this past season.
All Browns fans have to do is look at the players drafted and it becomes clear, the impact this rebuilding philosophy can have. The defense needs a few more pieces but now the main focus of the Browns draft can shift to the offensive needs.
Two more years of staying the course, rebuilding the Browns via the draft, will bring results.
The Browns cannot allow a return back to their previous building philosophy of trading away draft picks for the "star player" who never meets expectations...and once again our front office is forced to overpaying free agents who underperform, in an attempt to fill team needs. We tried that for 11 yrs and it did not work...we are smarter than that...I hope !
Quote: The Browns, since 1999, have tried to build themselves a winner the same way Dan Snyder and the Redskins have...doing some trading of draft picks but especially by using free agency to fill gaps.
Really?
Could you give me examples of the old players the Browns have signed in free agency ahd given 7 year, $100 million deals like the Redskins did with Albert Haynesworth? (with $41 million in guarantees, no less)
When have the Browns traded away a shut down corner like Champ Bailey for a RB. (who was never equal value, no matter how good Clinton Portis was)
When did we sign an overrated (sorry Nikki) S like Adam Archuleta to a $30 million deal?
They threw huge dollars at unproductive guys liek Brandon Lloyd. (who was awful in Washington, and traded shorty thereafter)
They threw huge dollars at guys like Todd Collins, and Antwan Randel-El.
They have also signed productive guys like Andre Carter, Shaun Springs, Bruce Smith, London Fletcher, and Casey Raubaugh.
When have the Browns done stuff like that?
I do find it hilarious that people, you included, want to sign an untested, unproven free agent QB like Flynn to a huge free agent deal ..... which is exactly what the Redskins you rail against would do.
The biggest signing I can think of for the Browns was a WR who wound up in prison. We signed older players here or there, or a younger up and comer to help fill holes along the way, but I can't remember the Browns doing a "Redskin" which would include an 8 digit contract for a free agent, and the team competing against itself ...... for days on end.
Can you tell me when the Browns made a habit of doing this, as you say they have? Can you give me examples?
RGIII sweepstakes in full mode … The draft is still just over two months away, but St. Louis is already willing to deal the 2nd pick overall this year. Whereas most deals with high picks aren’t consummated until just before the draft, the Rams appear to be hoping that another team will, in effect, pre-empt the competition by offering a big package of picks right now.
The Rams may also want to try and move the second pick - and with it the opportunity to select Baylor QB Robert Griffin - before free agency begins on March 13th. The concern for the Rams likely is that teams which need a QB and have an early pick this year like Washington and Miami could take themselves out of the Griffin sweepstakes if they were able to sign aveteran free agent QB such as Peyton Manning or Matt Flynn.
The Rams are believed to be asking for a package similar to the one the Giants sent to San Diego to acquire QB Eli Manning back in 2004. In that deal, the Chargers received two first round picks, as well as third- and fifth-round picks. Of course, the lower any team making an offer to the Rams picks the more picks they will likely have to offer.
In fact, conventional wisdom suggests that the Rams would not want to trade down all that far this coming April, for fear of losing out on a shot to acquire all the top prospects this year. The unconventional wisdom, though, might dictate that St. Louis, which has a lot of needs heading into the draft, might just be willing to trade the pick into the middle of the opening round and try and build with quantity as much as with quality.
Not surprisingly, the Rams have reportedly already had preliminary discussions with Cleveland, Washington, and Miami as well as one or two other teams about a possible deal, although it is not believed that St. Louis has received any concrete offers yet. According to the Washington Post, though, the Redskins would be willing to give up the 6th pick this year, as well as next year’s top pick and at least a couple of later round picks in order to move up.
Meanwhile, sources in Cleveland indicate that the Browns would be willing to part with their two #1 picks this year - the 4th and 22nd picks - as well as one other pick. Interestingly, though, both Cleveland and Washington have hinted that they might be content to take Texas A&M QB Ryan Tannehill sooner rather than later in this year’s opening round if the asking price for a move up to the #1 spot becomes prohibitive.
However, nothing much is expected to happen in the short term with the next prime window of opportunity for a deal the spring league meetings which are scheduled for the last week in March. In the meantime, get ready for plenty of smoke and mirrors! web page
Quote: What's it worth to move up to get him? What will it take. The point is the situations were similar in that the Hype for both Russell and RG3 is insane.
I don't remember who it was back then,, but plenty of folks on here wanted us to mortgage the future to find a way to get Russell..
The hype in terms of physical ability is usually justified, it's someone's ability to put it all together that's overhyped. However, it drives me nuts when people try to compare RGIII to Russell/Leaf/Akili simply because they were all hyped up.
- Russell didn't bust because he was overhyped, in terms of talent Russell was incredible. He busted because he had 0 work ethic. He had tons of people try to resuscitate his career but he was more content to be lazy and eat his way out of the league. Hell, even John Lucas tried to help him turn it around and ended up quitting as his life coach.
- Leaf was the exact same. He had more physical gifts than Peyton (his arm was easily better than Peyton's) but 0 work ethic and a toxic attitude. He was lazy, blamed his teammates more than himself and kept getting into fights. He'll even admit it to this day that he screwed up his shot.
- Akili Smith - EXACT same issues. He had a ton of physical talent but held out which set him back, didn't have a work ethic at all and then wasn't mature enough to handle the early struggles. He let the criticism get to him and instead of working out his issues with the team, he went back to San Diego in the off-seasons to party it up.
If you go back and look at the high profile QB busts in recent memory, you'll almost always run across either a) work ethic issues b) maturity issues and/or c) being surrounded by an abysmal supporting cast (and no, with 2 Pro Bowl linemen already, the Browns don't qualify).
Those guys listed above had hype but couldn't live up to it. What exactly is going to stop RGIII from living up to his? He has all the physical tools. He has a great work ethic. He's incredibly mature, well-spoken and is a team leader. He's intelligent enough to learn whatever we throw at him. Sure, he's not necessarily "pro ready" given that he'll have to learn a lot of the offense but again... what is going to stop him from living up to the hype?
That's what excites me about RGIII and why I pray we find a way to get him. Not only does he have the tools to be a star, he has the intangibles to put it all together. A guy like JaMarcus was a big risk... a guy like RGIII is a smart one.
Quote: two first round picks, as well as third- and fifth-round picks.
Sign me up man...Sign me up...
#4 3rd and 5th 2013 First
Then roll with 22-37 and 2 4th rounders...
I sign that document RIGHT NOW...
I'd rather give them #22 in THIS draft and be done with it...our 1st next season will most likely be a better pick and have probably more value to boot (see the "draft stuff" thread)....only way I would throw in next year's 1st is if we trade #22 for another team's 1st in 2013 and a 2nd this draft (Ingram-like deal)
Russell busted and yeah, he had physical talent,,, BUT YEAH,, fans were nuts for him and wanted us to trade away whatever we had to to get him,.,
I've heard this a couple of times now recently ... I don't remember this at all.
There may have been one or two posters, but the overwhelming majority of the board was absolutely terrified at the prospect of taking Russell.
That draft was a Thomas v. Peterson debate for months. A few folks wanted Calvin Johnson. I don't recall anyone clamoring for Russell. I'm sure there were a few, there always is ... but to say there was an outcry to move up for him is flat out revisionist.
Quote: two first round picks, as well as third- and fifth-round picks.
Sign me up man...Sign me up...
#4 3rd and 5th 2013 First
Then roll with 22-37 and 2 4th rounders...
I sign that document RIGHT NOW...
I'd rather give them #22 in THIS draft and be done with it...our 1st next season will most likely be a better pick and have probably more value to boot (see the "draft stuff" thread)....only way I would throw in next year's 1st is if we trade #22 for another team's 1st in 2013 and a 2nd this draft (Ingram-like deal)
I agree with Django. Chances are we'll be picking earlier than 22 in next year's draft. And if we're picking later than 22, well, I don't think many people will be complaining about taking Griffin then.
The big Russell supporter was Savage, who knew him personally, and wanted to draft him desperately. There was just no way (thank goodness) to make a deal.
Russell still did have the physical traits that generally make a successful NFL QB. He busted, It happens, at each and every position imaginable.
The big debate that year on the boards was Joe Thomas or, ironically enough, Brady Quinn. I don't recall too much Calvin Johnson pimping going on.
Quote: I've heard this a couple of times now recently ... I don't remember this at all.
There may have been one or two posters, but the overwhelming majority of the board was absolutely terrified at the prospect of taking Russell.
That draft was a Thomas v. Peterson debate for months. A few folks wanted Calvin Johnson. I don't recall anyone clamoring for Russell. I'm sure there were a few, there always is ... but to say there was an outcry to move up for him is flat out revisionist.
I remember the Thomas vs. Peterson debate quite well lol, that's what I think was being debated most hotly back then. I don't really remember a big group of people campaigning for Russell. I think most people understood the risk back then because his work ethic was in question even pre-draft.
I remember the Thomas vs. Peterson debate quite well lol, that's what I think was being debated most hotly back then. I don't really remember a big group of people campaigning for Russell. I think most people understood the risk back then because his work ethic was in question even pre-draft.
IIRC You were on the Peterson side and I (Toad was the biggest) were on the Thomas side. The good ole days. There were some Calvin Johnson discussions there were absolutely NO Russell pimps. Really i think the only one who wanted Russell was Savage.
Take away RG3's intelligence, personality, drive, athleticism and speed. Make all those average type qualities.
What round is he drafted? It's not before Round 3. It's not ahead of Kirk Cousins for sure. He doesn't have a gifted arm and he's not mechanically sound. He's accurate but I'd attribute that to the incredibly sized holes he's lobbing passes into.
Now add all those highly important qualities back in. And that gets him to be worth three first rounders???
The hype machine is in overdrive like I've rarely seen it.
I'm not sure how you can say he doesn't have an arm. He hits guys dead in stride, on all types of passes, can zip an out on a laser beam, and has incredible arm strength, accuracy, and ability to throw over the top on deep passes that rainbow right into his receiver's hands. he hits slants rapidly and accurately.
What do you see that says that he lacks regarding his arm? From everything I have seen, while he may not have the absolutely strongest arm in college football, it's in the upper tier. Everything I have read tends to agree.
I have watched a lot of his games from this past season, and he fits passes into narrow holes. He doesn't have massive caverns like some would have us believe. He is more than capable of passes zipped in between double coverage. (even down the field) He can throw a pass 20 yards on a line with a flick of his wrist. The best part is that he sometimes does this with bad mechanics, which means that he can still improve even more.
Can you give me some examples that I can look at where you think that his arm lacks strength, or his passes lack zip?
He has every other quality other than arm strength and passing mechanics in spades. Well almost he doesn't have prototype size or durability but I digress.
Just pointing out that people are paying a whole lot of attention to the shine on the apple.
When you look beyond that, at the apple itself, it doesn't look all that amazing.
Griffin might throw the best deep ball in the draft. I've seen him play a few times, the guy has plenty of arm. One of the most complete quarterbacks, I've seen in a long time, when it comes to arm, smarts, athleticism, and accuracy. The guy has it all.
I do fully agree that the Rams would rather not drop past six. Because of that I think we gain some leverage in terms of what we have to give up. Yay us! however, where we differ in opinion is that I think the Rams know they are woefully short on talent, so even though they wouldn't get the ideal trade scenario, they realize unlike in most years they are essentially guaranteed of getting a trade and can't afford to pass the opportunity up.
Side note here...for those fans who blast other fans for wanting to lose games at the end of a season where there are no hopes of a playoff appearance so we can get a higher draft position, well, sitting at 4 sure as Hell is nicer than sitting at #6 right now. .
Sometimes losing a battle to win a war makes sense...
Take away RG3's intelligence, personality, drive, athleticism and speed. Make all those average type qualities.
Take those away those same traits from every single QB in the NFL and they become a bad QB.
If we are taking RG3's speed, intelligence, personality, drive...why don't we take that away from Trent Richardson? Then what does he become? How about Justin Blackmon? How about any prospect in the draft?
Come on man.
Any other year, RG3 is a lock for the first overall pick. This is a 2004 like draft where there are actually 2 HOF QB's coming out of college. Tannehill is a bigger Colt McCoy, IMO, so I don't think there is a Ben Roethlisberger type in there, but there are definitely two franchise QB's at the top.
Quote: Griffin might throw the best deep ball in the draft. I've seen him play a few times, the guy has plenty of arm. One of the most complete quarterbacks, I've seen in a long time, when it comes to arm, smarts, athleticism, and accuracy. The guy has it all.
I've heard from a lot of credible media types that RG3 throws the best deep ball.
He has a good arm. There's not a ton to hate about this kid. He's extremely sharp.
I'm not all about mortgaging the farm for anyone, but I think this guy could be worth making a deal and parting with some of our future. I think we can actually offer less picks than Washington because the picks we do have are better. 4 is better than six and 22 is the trump card in my opinion.
I still think it's all premature. If this is all true, I wanna hear it draft week.
Hel, I cannot agree that his accuracy numbers are inflated due to huge holes to through through in college. I've seen just too many pinpoint throws where he hit "nfl open" receivers, unlike what guys like Quinn and Mccoy had.
Did he have big holes at times due to the spread? Absolutely he did. Anyone who says otherwise are lying to either us or themselves. However, its the throws into tight windoes that give him his grades. In that regard, he does have an elite arm.
I think he's as gifted a thrower as has come into the league in years. To me, I'm more conerned with his ability to stay on the field.
Quote: If you didn't have any prior knowledge of these two players...
And RG3 and Jordan Jefferson showed up on your front lawn to throw the football...
There is no one that would guess that Jefferson would go undrafted and RG3 would be worth 3 first rounders.
That's based on the ability to throw the football and nothing else
And if Jamarcus Russell showed up, all three of them would look like high schoolers.
But the game isn't played with no defenders, pass rush, or thinking. And while Griffin isn't as talented at throwing the ball as hard or far as those guys, he has better smarts, accuracy, and intelligence than both of them combined. Add in the fact that Griffin has a great deep ball and is able to escape and beat blitzes, and you have a great QB.
The only question on Griffin should be his size/durability to take hits in the open field.
Russell busted and yeah, he had physical talent,,, BUT YEAH,, fans were nuts for him and wanted us to trade away whatever we had to to get him,.,
I've heard this a couple of times now recently ... I don't remember this at all.
There may have been one or two posters, but the overwhelming majority of the board was absolutely terrified at the prospect of taking Russell.
That draft was a Thomas v. Peterson debate for months. A few folks wanted Calvin Johnson. I don't recall anyone clamoring for Russell. I'm sure there were a few, there always is ... but to say there was an outcry to move up for him is flat out revisionist.
Thank you. This is exactly how I remember it. There were probably more who wanted Quinn than Russell, and as I remember there weren't many of those either.
Quote: IIRC You were on the Peterson side and I (Toad was the biggest) were on the Thomas side. The good ole days. There were some Calvin Johnson discussions there were absolutely NO Russell pimps. Really i think the only one who wanted Russell was Savage.
Yep, I remember debating you guys and Pit (who I eventually made a sig for because I lost the bet haha) as well as others. I do remember liking Thomas a great deal though, just not as much as Peterson. Ahhh, the good ol' days when we were debating which Hall of Famer to take lol. I'll take that choice over being stuck with mediocre QBs if we lose the Griffin auction anyday!
You cannot separate out the various parts of a player. All that RG3 is makes up who and what he is.
I also disagree about his arm. I have watched almost every game he played this past year, and he makes NFL throws in every one of them. he can zip an out as well as any QB I have seen lately, and that throw needs an arm or it can easily be a pick 6 the other way.
I haven't seen RG3 float passes. I have seen him zip them into tight windows, or between double coverage, IMHO, he has a plus NFL arm. Add that to all of his other traits, and I see a great NFL QB.
We'll see who was closer to being right in a few years.
In case you haven't noticed I'm trying to counter the silliness going on right now surrounding RG3's NFL prospects.
It'd be like an NBA prospect that's really really really great although he's not a great shooter. Or a baseball player that's a transcendent prospect but he doesn't have home run power.
The guy doesn't have a great arm. That's a fact.
He's not a 5 tool player to borrow a baseball euphemism.
If he's not given time to fix his mechanics and not taught how to use his lower body correctly in throwing the football he's not going to make it long term in the NFL. That's my opinion.
And I simply do not know how you can watch him play and say that he doesn't have a great arm.
That really is just beyond comprehension to me. He has a plus arm, and can make all of the throws. He should improve even more as his mechanics are standardized and stabilized.
I absolutley LOATH the idea of the Browns trading 4, 22, a 3rd a 5th and a player or anything like that for this No talent unproven gibrone, (who I hate more with each passing day) named Robert Griffeth, or Griffen, or whatever.
( Hey no more derogartory than the hype or those out there waving pom poms for this prospect )
Loath that idea, and then moving forward missing out on all of those players and he being really good, or really bad.
I'd much rather , MUCH RATHER, have some other team get RG3, and RG3 wins 2 superbowls for that other team, and the Browns KEEP their 4-22, 3rd 5th, and a player , and the Browns go forward trying to win a superbowl with some other quarterback.
Somebody please talk about RG3's best game, his best 2 games or his best 3 games in college. Somebody please who is soo in love with this prospect, please convince me he's not going to be the biggest mistake since the Jet/Browns 1st round trade, What is RG3's biggest win, or top 3 wins?
What is the toughest defense he faced? at baylor. ( Setting School records at Baylor is like setting school records at Western Michigan, ) And if you read about a prospect, and the first paragraph lists how he set school records at Baylor, and they don't have something better to say, then that prospect is not worth 2 first round picks.
If I were the Browns, I'd be so upset with the Rams right now, I'd take the #4 pick off the table, say, you want to trade down, start talking about trading down to 22, there's no way you get that #4 pick and you can pick ANYBODY you want! I don't give ANYTHING about helping the Rams out.
Oh you take away inteligience athleticism, yada yada , away from any Qb and what else is there?
They aren't mentioning pocket pressence, Height, accuracy, game management, experience, defenses he's faced, His killer instinct to win games and make comebacks when the ohter team is playing well.
So he interviews well? He's not going to interview the Ravens steelers, and Bengals, He's not going to be in an interview contest with Tim Tebow if he plays denver.
So Just to ask? Someone, tell me about RG3's best game. Because look up articles on his bowl win, and first paragraph. RG3 dissappeard , and he was involved in 2 td's in 60+ points his team scored.
Colt McCoy did better in College and he isn't worth 2 first rounders + 3 more
A player with RGIII's measurables comes along once every 5-10 years.
A player with RGII's measurables AND intangibles comes along every 10-15.
It honestly doesn't matter what it costs, just get it done.
The Browns have a surplus of picks (6 picks in the first 4 rounds) and find themselves in the best position to land him. The reason you makes trades like last year (take a big package of picks to move back) is so you have the ammunition to go get a guy that is potentially an elite player. Not only an elite player but a possible franchise player at QB.
Everyone overvalues draft picks IMO. A 3 for 1 swap, even if it is 3 #1's is completely inconsequential if you find a QB who will play the next 10+ years at a high level. Those selections can be recouped by moving down in future drafts and also mitigated by free agent acquisitions.
You don't make such a trade for ANY position but for QB, you absolutely pull the trigger.
Quote: Those guys listed above had hype but couldn't live up to it. What exactly is going to stop RGIII from living up to his? He has all the physical tools. He has a great work ethic. He's incredibly mature, well-spoken and is a team leader. He's intelligent enough to learn whatever we throw at him. Sure, he's not necessarily "pro ready" given that he'll have to learn a lot of the offense but again... what is going to stop him from living up to the hype?
First of all...So was Courtney Brown....
Second of all....How about playing in a restrictive system that won't take advantage of his strongest attributes and is dependant upon his weakest...nor having the talent around him to help him succeed and then giving up the means in order to get that talent around him for several years....
Not saying he can't do it...but you asked...I answered...
Quote: In case you haven't noticed I'm trying to counter the silliness going on right now surrounding RG3's NFL prospects.
It'd be like an NBA prospect that's really really really great although he's not a great shooter. Or a baseball player that's a transcendent prospect but he doesn't have home run power.
The guy doesn't have a great arm. That's a fact.
He's not a 5 tool player to borrow a baseball euphemism.
If he's not given time to fix his mechanics and not taught how to use his lower body correctly in throwing the football he's not going to make it long term in the NFL. That's my opinion.
Can you maybe get a couple youtube clips of him being terrible please?
Quote: And I simply do not know how you can watch him play and say that he doesn't have a great arm.
That really is just beyond comprehension to me. He has a plus arm, and can make all of the throws. He should improve even more as his mechanics are standardized and stabilized.
He doesn't get on top of the ball when he throws 99% of the time.
I don't understand your side as well. Point me to a site where I can watch a replay of a game. Not the bowl game which I watched or the oklahoma state game where I gave up watching at 49-3 in the third quarter.
Pick one that will support your case and I'll watch it tonight.
Quote: Those guys listed above had hype but couldn't live up to it. What exactly is going to stop RGIII from living up to his? He has all the physical tools. He has a great work ethic. He's incredibly mature, well-spoken and is a team leader. He's intelligent enough to learn whatever we throw at him. Sure, he's not necessarily "pro ready" given that he'll have to learn a lot of the offense but again... what is going to stop him from living up to the hype?
First of all...So was Courtney Brown....
Second of all....How about playing in a restrictive system that won't take advantage of his strongest attributes and is dependant upon his weakest...nor having the talent around him to help him succeed and then giving up the means in order to get that talent around him for several years....
Not saying he can't do it...but you asked...I answered...
This is what scares me! Pidgeon hole the kid and he become more grist for the QB mill that is Cleveland! Expensive grist at that!
You unleash that talent if he has it, not hold it back.
I can totally see how people who watched parts of two or three games can think he doesn't have the arm strength that people who actually have watched multiple full games of his know he has.
I can't remember seeing someone who was so insistent on putting as much touch on the ball as possible just about every pass. He just doesn't wing it unless it is needed on the play. You could see he was trying to answer the critics on his first pass of the godawful Alamobowl when he fired that slant and almost knocked Terrance Williams over. After the play, Williams looked at Griffin like "Why the face?" Usually, Griffin calmly tossed those slants to his receivers in stride and they just kept on running. I really think Griffin wanted to show he had a big arm and that that's what happened on the play.
In his interview with the combine commentators, they asked him something like "what do you want people to know about you as a QB" or something like that... he said something like "that I'm not just an athelete, that I can make all the throws, that I know when to take something off of the throw..." I can't remember many QB prospects talking about their ability to "take something off" the throw. Seems like most guys just throw it (see: Landry Jones, Derek Anderson.)
I'm not trying to say this is some great attribute, what I'm saying is that he's just not trying to impress you with every throw. He's trying to complete passes and allow his guys to get downfield. Really, the first game I watched of him back in September (or early October... can't remember exactly), I didn't think he had a big arm, either. I gave him another shot and he pulled out this laser on the run that was 20 yards on a rope. Total "what in the heck was that" moment. He only made about 2 of those every three games, but after that I started noticing how much he mixed up the speeds of his passes, and it had mostly to do with the coverage. The guy just really seems to get football to me.
Hel, I'm not sure what you're seeing in terms of a lack of arm strength.
I don't think he has the strongest arm in the NFL but his zip is pretty close to elite. I don't think anyone who's evaluating players is saying anything to the contrary. When he's throwing bee-bee's at his pro day, I'm sure any concerns you may have about his arm will be relieved.
I suppose if you want to nitpick, you could say his release is a tad long but the ease with which he throws a football is very rare.
The only concern I have is durability. Everything else is off the charts for both he and Luck.
Kosar threw like crap also. Arnold Palmers golf swing is horrendous. And...every QB in history has his moments of laughable play.
Guys take what they have somehow and make it work.
I dont know how the kid will pan out. I'm not sure I want to use multiple picks to get him. I dont know if he's worth the #4 let alone other picks. What I do know is this organization is pure VANILLA! We need some excitement around here!
Count me on the side of "the news outlets need a bonfire of hype, and Luck just isn't giving it to them anymore, so here comes RG3". I think the kid is a great talent, and we would be better off by picking him. He's NOT a Luck/Manning type of prospect, though (imo). Lucks/Mannings come around once in a long while, but RG3 is really a rung or two down from there.
Put another way, next year, they're going to be saying all the same things about Barkley.
In terms of draft day, obviously the best case scenario would be to have RG3 drop to us at 4. I don't think we're going to see one of these mega-trades happen for the #2 pick. I think FA will help ease some of the pressure which is pushing up the price for this pick.
Another thing I wanted to mention is that the hype-machine is forgetting one thing, and that's Kalil. The dude is the "can't miss" LT of this draft, and you have St. Louis and Minny desperately wanting that guy. Minny would also do well in picking up Claiborne because their secondary is awful.
There was one play I remember where he's rolling out of the pocket to the right, under heavy, heavy pressure, and he's almost to the sideline .... and somehow he completes a pass on the sideline, like 10-15 yards down the field. I swear that I didn't even see his arm move.
I had to go back and watch it several times, and I still could hardly see his arm move.The ball just rocketed out for a completion. It was one of the most incredible "small" plays I have seen.
Second of all....How about playing in a restrictive system that won't take advantage of his strongest attributes and is dependant upon his weakest...nor having the talent around him to help him succeed and then giving up the means in order to get that talent around him for several years....
Not saying he can't do it...but you asked...I answered...
Courtney Brown was plagued by injuries. You just can't predict injuries unless a guy has a chronic condition that causes them. One time injuries that don't make a guy more vulnerable mean nothing because they're repaired and heal. RGIII doesn't play like Vick. Sure, he runs, but he's a pass first guy. He'll get dinged up I'd imagine but nowhere to the point where it'll derail his entire career.
He would be playing in a crap system (the way we run it anyway), you're right. Hopefully putting him into it would force innovation and at the very least open up the WCO. I mean, the WCO has produced some amazing offenses in the past and present... there's no reason we need to keep running WCO101 unless we don't have the personnel to do more (especially at QB).
For the "talent around him" argument, try to play the scenario out a bit... we trade #4, #22, #68 and #101 for him which is a lot (two 1s a 3rd and 4th). I know the value chart isn't perfect but that's over 2900 points for a pick worth 2600. That could probably get it done because all those picks are in the present unlike Washington's offer. Take our 2nd rounder and trade down to the middle of the round for a team who wants to leap. #37 for #50 and #82 works. Now we're picking #4, #50, #82 and #118 (or whatever it is, our extra from the Falcons). We still have a pick in every round 1-7. I don't know about you but that's plenty of ammo to find some weapons... AND our future drafts are 100% intact. Barely a dent in the war chest. Such is the beauty of owning extra picks this year.
I understand your fear... I don't blame any fan for being risk averse after all these failed drafts. I just think that with all the extra ammo we're packing and how we desperately need playmakers on offense and excitement for the franchise, NOW is the time to strike.
One other thing ..... going back to the video with Gruden and the WCO play .....
For those who say that RG3 would be wasted in that kind of offense, what route does the left outside receiver run? (hint: a go pattern) Think that a guy like RG3 might hit a few of those over the top? I do.
Tannehill vs. RG3 Game really highlights how bad Tannehill's receivers were and how bad Griffin's offensive line was. Really this was the game that started RG3's climb up the boards.
RG's throwat 2:37min is a thing of beauty....I don't know how many times we called that shotgun-PlayAction with single coverage on the outside and I screamed at the Screen for Colt to throw it where the single coverage is...RG threw that ball WELL BEFORE his WR was open and IN STRIDE so he could score an easy TD after the catch....the ball left his hand when the WR was 10yds into his route and he caught it 30yds from LOS....who said he can't anticipate throws? I've never seen Colt throw this pass, NEVER...2seconds after the snap 30yds downfield into single coverage? Never....when he threw those it was after 5+ seconds, heavy scrambling and into jump ball situations with WR and CB almost stopped waiting for the ball
Closest thing to this was Colt's game winning TD pass vs Miami to Massa...that was probably McCoy's best throw I've ever seen, considering situation, decision, touch/placement/execution
Both QBs know where they want to go with the ball very quickly...the ball was off their hands in 2-3 seconds mostly...even on those deep passes by RG...that was impressive
Wish i could find the entire game, it was a thing of beauty for both QBs. This is big time rivalry and they really went at it. It was obvious who the premier players were for both teams.
I hope NFL network shows their proday workouts. It is gonna be a fun ride till draft day.
Side note here...for those fans who blast other fans for wanting to lose games at the end of a season where there are no hopes of a playoff appearance so we can get a higher draft position, well, sitting at 4 sure as Hell is nicer than sitting at #6 right now. .
Sometimes losing a battle to win a war makes sense...
Don't forget about the fans who wanted to "suck for Luck" from the get go. These fans realized we weren't a playoff team from the start. If we could have lost a few more games we had no buisness winning anyway, we could be shopping the number one pick to move down one spot and then actually be gaining picks and still end up with Luck or RG3 (or take your favorite without trading). I would say the suck for Luck fans had it right all along if their goal was to eventually get to the superbowl.
I'll direct those that are wondering what I'm talking about to watch the third video. It's the game against Rice.
I was thinking about breaking down each and every pass but I'm too lazy to tell you the truth.
When you watch him throw the ball take note how often he throws without fully engaging his lower half and driving the ball off his front plant leg.
It's almost every throw.
His passing mechanics in this respect are as bad as I've seen an otherwise successful QB show.
This is not an ideal comparison but it's kind of like watching LeBron when he was young with the Cavs shooting off-balance fall-aways and missing. I would tear my hair out because 1. it was often completely unnecessary and 2. he'd probably make quite a few more if he squared his body and jumped up in the same way time after time.
It's not an ideal comparison as RG3 is nowhere near the prospect that LeBron was coming into the NBA...but hopefully you get the drift.
Prime Examples - 1:43 (Wow that's ugly), 2:30 (TD! And the ball is delivered to exactly the right spot so can't hate too much!)
He missed a few throws too where he did not put enough zip on the throw.
Example 0:19 - Waits too long for Wright to show himself as open. Then throws a softball that is behind him. Really pretty ugly play all around.
He throws a lot of quarter arm, elbow stuck to his side passes.
Example 0:46, 4:31, 4:40, 5:04
Sometimes he tries to guide the ball.
Example 1:28 - Is unsure how hard to throw it...and that's a function of his irregular mechanics....and he overthrows his wide open reciever.
Ugly fumble play at 7:00
And to show the positives.
I like the throws at 1:57, 3:36, 6:38, 8:00
Did he have a single WOW throw in this sample. No he didn't for me. He did have a couple WOW runs but no throws.
The only WOW throw I've seen was the Alamo Bowl throw in the third quarter that I mentioned that night. It's the first link and at 8:13.
That changed my mind that there's something to work with. I literally hopped off my couch and said ok now that's an NFL throw right there.
I need to watch more but watching that Rice first half only pushed me further away from using the #4 pick on him let alone three first rounders.
I would like to draft him later, let him sit for 2012 and work on his mechanics, then see what we have in 2013. We might have a gem.
btw...did RG3 do anything other than stand tall to WOW at that combine?
No.
He's a track guy (hurdles) so I knew he was going to fly in the 40. His other numbers, broad jump and vert, were frankly disappointing to me.
He's smart and gregarious and great with the media. Just like he was last week.
Basically I'm just saying he's exactly the same guy before the combine as he was after the combine + 1 inch.
If you were paying attention before then all this new attention and talk about 17 first rounders in a trade with the Rams talk is just...air filler, hype machine keep listening/watching talk.
Quote: I'm convinced, lets trade to with Seattle to #12, get some more picks from them and take Tannehill.
Is this sincere or Sarcasm.
Honestly I would understand the value of either Qb as long as they don't trade 2 firsts for anybody.
If you trade back to 12 Tannehill might not be there, or he may be there at 37, but in the last... if that's who you want take him. I'd worry the Cowboys might take him for the Qb of the future and they pick 13 I think.
If I'm at 4, and have lost out on Luck, RG3, and Claiborne, then I'm trading back if possible. I think that we could trade back to the 10 range and get Richardson if we want him ...... and I am not interested in Tannehill, as he's probably 2-3 years away, and will be on a 4 year deal.
If I draft a QB high, I want him ready to go from day 1 ..... because he is probably going to get thrown into the fire whether we want him to or not ...... and I want a guy who is ready to go.
That's not Tannehill. He is a massive project. I do not see a good end if we draft him.
Quote: If you were paying attention before then all this new attention and talk about 17 first rounders in a trade with the Rams talk is just...air filler, hype machine keep listening/watching talk.
U got it...The closer the NFL gurus get to this kid the more hype there's gonna be...Because he's impressive in everything he does...And believe me...I hate Heisman Winners at any position...Luck shoulda gotten it...Hopefully Griffin breaks the mold...
So what's the Hype u and Mour have going for Tannehill that's driven a 2nd rounder as high as us taking him at 4???...He hasn't even SPOKE yet...
Quote: I'm convinced, lets trade to with Seattle to #12, get some more picks from them and take Tannehill.
i don't know. one of the bigger jokes going around here is how much better RGIII's numbers would look if he got to play against Baylor's D like the rest of the BigXII did.
If it goes: Luck, RGIII (to Skins), and Claiborne, then we better take Kalil at #4. Having him opposite Thomas would instantly give us one of the best lines in football.
My first thoughts are Baylors receivers are fast. I'd like to see Kendall Wright as a Brown.
About RG:
Does an average job of hitting wide, wide open receivers.
Decent arm strength.
Loves to run. And takes a lot of hits. A LOT of hits.
Accuracy on MOVING targets? Avg at best.
Each game had maybe 2 or 3 really good passes. Other wise? He was hitting guys that weren't moving and/or were wide, wide open.
Over throws. Under throws.
Footwork? The guy is obviously an athlete. His mechanics are in need of help though. Doesn't plant and throw. Too often has a hitch in his motion. That's probably why his 10-15 yd. downfield passes lacked anything over "decent" accuracy. 30 and 40 yd passes? He over threw or underthrew as many as he hit.
Baylor's receivers are fast!
After watching all of these - I found myself wondering why Luck didn't get the heisman trophy.
Call me whatever.....no skin off my back - I just didn't see an nfl ready qb. Honestly, due to all the hype about him - I expected to see much, much more in terms of accuracy, arm strength, etc.
He has potential - but it's "athletic" potential. I see him struggling in the nfl. But, we'll find out soon enough, won't we?
Quote: If you ignore the fact that Kalil isn't really a RT...
Nearly all of the starting RTs in the NFL were LTs in college
I'm not sure why people think being a good pass blocker means you can't play RT -- it's ridiculous.
I also don't understand why people would want Claiborne (even though we already have a great CB in Haden), but use the excuse that we already have a great LT to imply that we shouldn't get an RT. Both the defensive backfield and offensive line are so similar, in that you are only as good as your weakest link.
Quote: Call me whatever.....no skin off my back - I just didn't see an nfl ready qb. Honestly, due to all the hype about him - I expected to see much, much more in terms of accuracy, arm strength, etc.
He has potential - but it's "athletic" potential. I see him struggling in the nfl. But, we'll find out soon enough, won't we?
I won't call u names...But I'd like to...REALLY like to...
I'm enamoured by the fact that u see so little in what is going to end up being the #2 pick in this draft...And would be #1 if it weren't for Luck...Yet the Browns are knee deep in even discussing moving up to 2 for Griffin...
Damn it Heckert...Stop already...This dude on some website says NO...And he's apparently some elite QB talent evaluator...
I think Griffin if going to bust and Tannehil is really going to be a winner in this league. Right now if the Browns Don't get Tannehill I'll be highly disappointed.
I wouldn't use 22 on Claibourne, I just don't want to see them draft another Cb in the 1st, no matter what! I think Tannehill is ready, Flynn is ready, McCoy is ready, RG3 would be some kind of a consolation prize, but the problem is if you bring in RG3 the pressure will be to part ways with McCoy, so its an all in bet. Boom or Bust if you sign RG3 you don't have McCoy still on the team
For Me, Tannehill and McCoy Flynn and McCoy are both better options than RG3 and Senaca Wallace.
I think RG3 is gonna take 3 years to be any good and Ryan Tannehill is ready to step in right away and play ball, I think he can win more games than McCoy, this year, ( maybe, but only because McCoy has the year and a half on the team advantage and I'm allowing for his possible coming out year,) but
short of a coming out much better year for McCoy, then Tannehill is the better Qb than McCoy this year and RG3 is going to take 3 years to develop, ... If he doesn't blow out a wheel like all the " athletes" seem to...
So for me it's a no brainer, Tannehill and McCoy is a great option.
Flynn and Tannehill might even be a Better! option! and Flymn and McCoy would be a great option also.
They all 3 beat RG3 and McCoy is pushed out of the door, espcially if you give up anything more than just sitting at #4 and letting Rg3 be there.
That's my opinion.
Rg3 didn't face baylor? Well he faced some prett bad schools along with his 4 or 5 or 6 total good wins in 2 years.
Not everybody can play TCU, and Rice twice, and buffalo, sam houston state, stephen F Austin. Those are teams to pad his stats and generally he did, but he didnt get a chance to pad his stats vs the baylor D? Come ON, all those schools are worse than Mississippi St. and most of the rest of the Kansas' Missouri's Kansas st's and Iowa states' don't have good defenses either.
Talking about Kalil is a little silly. No way, not a chance, 100% guaranteed not to happen, he drops past the 3rd pick. Both St. Louis and Minnesota need a LT, BAD. Both teams won't pass up the opportunity to get him.
If we don't come away with RG3, then we trade down or get Claiborne. Claiborne would be nice paired with Haden. It would be REALLY nice to paired that secondary with a pass rush monster.
I find it disappointing that we spend time breaking down the actual tape on RG3 to explain our position and we've yet to see one of his biggest fans do the same.
If you really support trading a bounty of picks for this guy then roll the tape and explain to me why.
ok, you like Tannehill better than RGIII. fair enough as you would not be the only one with that opinion.
but, umm, you bash RGIII for the defenses he played as the main argument against him? you do realize that A&M played in the same conference as Baylor, right? they don't start in the SEC until next year.
Quote: I find it disappointing that we spend time breaking down the actual tape on RG3 to explain our position and we've yet to see one of his biggest fans do the same.
If you really support trading a bounty of picks for this guy then roll the tape and explain to me why.
I defended my position. How am I wrong?
This is where I get a chuckle or five...
YOU broke down some You Tube video...I don't need You Tube video on this one...Nor do I need to even see this kid with my own eyes...I love it when we all say "I believe MY OWN eyes"...That's hilarious...Like u guys even know WTF you're looking at...
Let's put it as plain and as simple as possible...
NUMEROUS teams in the NFL are ready to move to #2 for this kid...Quite frankly...With this kid...That's ALL I NEED...
Call it hype if u want...I call it National Football League Talent Evaluators SEEING a kid that can be SPECIAL...I don't need to see not one play of his...Although I've seen MANY long before this hype of the draft started...
Quote: I think Griffin is going to bust and Tannehil is really going to be a winner in this league.
U say Tannehill is ready DAY ONE...
You could not be more wrong chief...
NO QB with 19 Collegiate Starts is ever going to be thrown to the wolves like that...BANK IT...
Tannehill will be a Deer in the Headlights for at least a year...It's not even OPINION...That lack of experience dictates it...And I'd guarantee u that 32 NFL GM's and QB's think the same...
U r sooooooo damn far off base it's not even funny...
Quote: I find it disappointing that we spend time breaking down the actual tape on RG3 to explain our position and we've yet to see one of his biggest fans do the same.
If you really support trading a bounty of picks for this guy then roll the tape and explain to me why.
I defended my position. How am I wrong?
I watched six games of his this year to come to my conclusions, as I've repeated ad absurdum since then.
I also said, as arch said, that he had the luxury of very gifted skill players, which was the converse (inverse?) of what Luck had... mediocre skill position players but the best O-Line in the country.
Quote: I find it disappointing that we spend time breaking down the actual tape on RG3 to explain our position and we've yet to see one of his biggest fans do the same.
If you really support trading a bounty of picks for this guy then roll the tape and explain to me why.
I defended my position. How am I wrong?
This is where I get a chuckle or five...
YOU broke down some You Tube video...I don't need You Tube video on this one...Nor do I need to even see this kid with my own eyes...I love it when we all say "I believe MY OWN eyes"...That's hilarious...Like u guys even know WTF you're looking at...
Let's put it as plain and as simple as possible...
NUMEROUS teams in the NFL are ready to move to #2 for this kid...Quite frankly...With this kid...That's ALL I NEED...
Call it hype if u want...I call it National Football League Talent Evaluators SEEING a kid that can be SPECIAL...I don't need to see not one play of his...Although I've seen MANY long before this hype of the draft started...
Cleve...You're right...
Shall we go through all the "can't miss" qb's recently? Seriously?
Let's start with Tom Brady - he was a 6th round afterthought pick - look at him.
Now, let's look at Leaf, Harrington, Mirer, Akili Smith, Russell, Quinn, Shuler, Klingler, ware..........the list is long my friend.
The common denominator is, each one was a "top notch" talent.............
RG may be a stud. But keep in mind, EVERY single year there are "can't miss" picks that miss terribly. Every year.
Griffin has athleticism as one plus. Smarts would seem to be another plus. Accuracy? Not anything to brag about. That's just me, though, right?
Keep in mind the media has to hype someone, right? I mean, they do it every year.
You say "numerous teams" are lining up, or clamoring to take RG at spot #2. Neat. What I've seen is the team with spot #2 advertising that pick for sale.
I am not a talent evaluator. Neither are you. And the pros? They miss more often than they hit. I DO go by what I see. On the field. It's a fairly simple concept really.
See, the draft is such a crapshoot - all the "pros" want to analyze every detail - and the details don't make or create a good player. 4.6 speed vs. 4.4 speed - who gives a rip?
You may not need to watch a qb to determine anything. I did. And I saw Baylor's receivers as being top notch.....thereby bailing out the run first, average accuracy, only hit wide wide open receivers consistently qb from Baylor.
Quote: And I saw Baylor's receivers as being top notch.....thereby bailing out the run first, average accuracy, only hit wide wide open receivers consistently qb from Baylor.
LOL...U want hype???...Look no further than this TOP NOTCH receiver in Wright...He's a flippen munchkin...But u guys all want em' at 22 because we need a WR...The ONLY reason he's even spoken of is because of the dude throwin' the ball to em' all year...
Run first...Average Accuracy...Hit wide open receivers QB...I guess the pundits in the NFL are * holes then...Including the Browns...
Gotcha...
Keep with your "Build the Team First" concept...Regardless of the TALENT staring u in the face...We can get the next best hype machine later...WATCH how that works if that's where it ends up...
Quote: You may not need to watch a qb to determine anything. I did. And I saw Baylor's receivers as being top notch.....thereby bailing out the run first, average accuracy, only hit wide wide open receivers consistently qb from Baylor.
I have watched every game RG3 played in a Baylor uniform. He is not a run first QB. He relied on his running ability early in his career, but he became a pass-first QB by the end. If you study the film, even when he takes off to run, he is still looking downfield for receivers and often throws the ball despite having room to run. Have you seen the final play of the Oklahoma game?
Average accuracy? Really? He completed 72.4% of his passes last year. And you can see from the film, those were not a bunch of wide receiver and bubble screens. You realize that after the first 3 games, he had more touchdown passes than INCOMPLETIONS. While those opponents were not very good, that is hard to do against air on the practice field.
I agree he had good receivers. But you cannot discount RG3's role in their success. RG3's terrific play fakes combined with his speed often froze linebackers and safeties allowing receivers to find open space. His amazing accuracy made catching the ball easy (see above).
He does have some flaws though. His footwork in the pocket needs improving. His arm strength allowed him to throw off his back foot in the college game and get away with it. He will need to improve on that at the next level. But perhaps his best qualities, the qualities that will make him a great NFL QB, are his intelligence and his work ethic. He graduated high school and college early while honing elite level skills in football and track. I'm not sure there are enough hours in a day to even do that. But all this to say he will work hard and is smart enough to correct his flaws. And when he does, he will be a beast.
I promise, you will not be disappointed if you get RG3.
Quote: I'm convinced, lets trade to with Seattle to #12, get some more picks from them and take Tannehill.
i don't know. one of the bigger jokes going around here is how much better RGIII's numbers would look if he got to play against Baylor's D like the rest of the BigXII did.
Rams COO Kevin Demoff told SI.com’s Peter King that a team “you would never expect” has contacted St. Louis about a possible trade up to the No. 2 overall pick.
Buffalo, who holds the tenth pick, is not that mystery team.
“It is absolute. It’s a no,” Bills G.M. Buddy Nix told Chris Brown of BuffaloBills.com. “You’ve got to give up the farm. We’re not in that business.”
So the Bills expect to remain in the tenth spot. Nix has identified three areas they could go with the selection.
We’re guessing that some sort of pass rush help is one of the three possibilities. Or perhaps all three.
I like Buddy. He was the coach here at UTC and brought TO here to play, a good football man. I have played golf with him maybe a dozen times....a great guy, but even to southerners, they wonder where he learned to talk like that....he's as southern drawl as it gets....lol
Buddy is football....the Bills are lucky to have him. He got it done in San Diego. He'll get it done in Buffalo, even if he sticks out a bit.
Quote: “It is absolute. It’s a no,” Bills G.M. Buddy Nix told Chris Brown of BuffaloBills.com. “You’ve got to give up the farm. We’re not in that business.”
And they pick around 10 just about every year, stuck in the same rut with no quarterback.
Fitzpartick played very well until he had like 3 or 4 guys on the OL to go down. Their problem is OL and defense. I think he is on the verge of becoming one of the elite QBs.
Quote: “It is absolute. It’s a no,” Bills G.M. Buddy Nix told Chris Brown of BuffaloBills.com. “You’ve got to give up the farm. We’re not in that business.”
And they pick around 10 just about every year, stuck in the same rut with no quarterback.
Quote: “It is absolute. It’s a no,” Bills G.M. Buddy Nix told Chris Brown of BuffaloBills.com. “You’ve got to give up the farm. We’re not in that business.”
And they pick around 10 just about every year, stuck in the same rut with no quarterback.
HAH-VAHD.
where have I heard of a Harvard grad playing in NY that holds the ball the most on offense? hmmm....
I'm beginning to like this RG3 debate... I love it when board members start slinging little shots and names at each other because their view is the only right view. Meanwhile the FO will probably break everyone's heart come draft day and all this angst will be for nothing.
I write to strongly urge you not to consider taking Robert Griffin III in the upcoming NFL player selection meeting. I know that this cuts against the overwhelming consensus among NFL scouts and front office personnel, but please hear me out. You see, I have been advised that there exists a soothsayer internet shaman known as Heldawg who possesses not only the power of sight, but also the power of conviction. From a distant land, and through the use of Youtube, his vision and conviction tell him that the man known as RG3 is nothing more than a Colt McCoy clip board jockey. His record of proving NFL player selectors wrong is well established as can be seen on page 7 of the RGII Part III thread on Dawgtalkers.com. So I would suggest that instead of investing in attending Mr. Griffin's March 21 pro day, place that money in the offering plate at church on Sunday and pray that Colt McCoy grows an arm out of his thorax.
Signed
Guy who has seen RG3 play very game of his collegiate career but lacks vision and/or conviction
Quote: Not everybody can play TCU, and Rice twice, and buffalo, sam houston state, stephen F Austin.
First, TCU has a top ranked defense in college football year after year. TCU won the Rose Bowl last year over a very good Wisconsin team. They aren't some cupcake.
Second, Texas A&M didn't exactly face great defenses either yet you are convinced that Tannehill is so much better. They played in the same Big 12 with an OOC schedule of SMU, Idaho, Arkansas (good defense), and Northwestern in a bowl. So Tannehill faced 1 tough defense that Griffin didn't. Big deal.
Quote: Some of us go through life following others. Some of us have the courage to follow our own convictions.
Just because you don't understand what you're seeing doesn't mean that I don't.
I started a thread titled "I was wrong". I'm wrong from time to time. I'm not infallible.
But I do get it right quite a bit too. Yea even when the media and other talent evaluators say the opposite.
Bottom line. I know what I'm looking at. If you don't want to read what I write then don't.
Take care.
Enough with the crap that if you support RG3 that must mean you are simply following the media and talking heads. Courage and conviction.......on an internet message board........in a discussion about draft prospects?
RG3 may be great, or he may be terrible. No one knows for sure, and each has qualities they look for, and some even look for the same qualities yet see different things in him.
You don't understand anything more than anyone else does, so climb on down here with the rest of us "lesser" talent evaluators and get over yourself.
I'm going to start billing you every time you read my posts.
I gave you free access to my knowledge for too long.
Now I have to march back up to my mountain top where I will continue to dole out free wisdom for the masses.
btw...why come to a message board if all you want to read is popular opinion? Seriously. Stick to Colin Cowherd or Skip Bayless and bypass my posts from now on.
I miss eotab, vers and diam. I even miss that steeler fan shepdawg.
I write to strongly urge you not to consider taking Robert Griffin III in the upcoming NFL player selection meeting. I know that this cuts against the overwhelming consensus among NFL scouts and front office personnel, but please hear me out. You see, I have been advised that there exists a soothsayer internet shaman known as Heldawg who possesses not only the power of sight, but also the power of conviction. From a distant land, and through the use of Youtube, his vision and conviction tell him that the man known as RG3 is nothing more than a Colt McCoy clip board jockey. His record of proving NFL player selectors wrong is well established as can be seen on page 7 of the RGII Part III thread on Dawgtalkers.com. So I would suggest that instead of investing in attending Mr. Griffin's March 21 pro day, place that money in the offering plate at church on Sunday and pray that Colt McCoy grows an arm out of his thorax.
Signed
Guy who has seen RG3 play very game of his collegiate career but lacks vision and/or conviction
I'm on the fence. Let me repeat that, I am on the fence. Any attempt to bad mouth my football smarts, intelligence or whatever have you will just re-affirm my opinion that my attacker is a blooming idiot that makes uninformed decisions.
It' all fine and well to have lil discussions about who we likie lotsie in the draft, but until FA comes and goes and we see how the dust settles and who has who.. all this crap is rampant speculation
I'd be more impressed with the poster that says: "if we do this in FA, then it makes sense for us to do such and such and take so and so with the bleep pick in the umpteenth round, and here's why that makes sense"
The poster that says.. "we should trade these 4 picks, move up to 2 and take RGIII" with no input on what we do (will do) in FA is just being silly.
I've completely altered my thinking here recently...
I want to get Flynn in FA. Which allows US to be the Auctioneers come draft time, I'd trade all the way back to Seattle or Dallas' pick if the price was right!
I still want to throw as much money at Mario Williams. If that doesn't work I'd go after Mercilus in the first (if he's still there)
If we Get Flynn I'd be all for trading back and grabbing Richardson or Blackmon, if not Blackmon then I like Sanu in round 2.
Quote: I've completely altered my thinking here recently...
I want to get Flynn in FA. Which allows US to be the Auctioneers come draft time, I'd trade all the way back to Seattle or Dallas' pick if the price was right!
I still want to throw as much money at Mario Williams. If that doesn't work I'd go after Mercilus in the first (if he's still there)
If we Get Flynn I'd be all for trading back and grabbing Richardson or Blackmon, if not Blackmon then I like Sanu in round 2.
(How was that?)
It's a good start.. more about what I was thinking.. could you explain a bit more about this part?
Quote: Which allows US to be the Auctioneers come draft time
Can you tell me how we would be auctioneers to your thinking? Spell it out.
Right now St Louis is holding the Auction for the 2nd pick.
If we get Flynn, no one has to jump us to get RG3 anymore, we become the landing spot...
And it's cheaper to go to 4 than to 2 obviously...
Washington no longer has to give up 37 first round picks... Seattle and Miami (assuming they didn't get Manning) now have a better chance to move up...
We could drop to #6 for a 2 and a 4 this year and a 3 next year, and still get someone like Richardson or Blackmon...
Hmm.. If we get Flynn it becomes a 3 team race instead of a 4 team?
What if we pass on RG to get Flynn? Then, the teams that want RG decide to deal with the Vikes... gambling that the Rams won't take RG cause they have Bradford..
Same was that DA was an unknown after putting 51 on Cincinnati .... or Holcomb was after lighting up Pittsburgh in the playoffs.
Teams facing the backup naturally let down. No one can tell me that they don't, because there are far too many times where a team starting a backup QB not only wins, but blows away expectations ..... fir a game ..... or 2 .......
There is nothing to go on right now as far as Flynn is concerned. How do you defense him? What are his favorite throws? What are his tendencies under pressure? No one has a clue yet.
However, let him start 4 or 5 games and a picture will be gin to emerge, and defenses will begin to tailor their approach to taking away what he does best. What happens then?
Further, right now Flynn is a guy with damn near no tape whatsoever, even going back to college. No one can even really determine what his tendencies were way back then.
Matt Flynn attempted 437 passes in his entire college career. He completed 60% of his passes. He never really did anything well ..... but he had decent size, a decent enough looking arm, and maybe he had potential. The packers were impressed enough to grab him in the 7th round, with the 209th pick.
Since then he has played in 2 games, and man has he impressed. of course, he is also playing on a superior Packers team ...... against defenses going: "Oh thank God we don't have to play against Aaron Rodgers". So, of course, they do the backup letdown and get trounced anyway.
How many guys drafted in the late rounds are traded, and then go on to star for their new team?
Matt Schaub has had a wonderful career since joining the Texans, and is definitely the driving force behind their run to the playoffs. They were what ... 7-2 with him, and wound up 10-6? The backup and backup's backup did OK .... but he wasn't what kept them in games.
He was originally a 3rd round pick of the Falcons. (who seem to have a habit of giving away good QB ....... Favre, Schaub, and Vick that I can thnk of off the top of my head)
Who else?
Matt Cassel was a backup turned superstar ...... until he stopped starring in KC.
Kinda weird that these guys all seemed to be names Matt, or what?
Anyway, the bottom line is that the top 10 has a couple of guys who slipped through the cracks in one way or another.
Drew Brees was a high 2nd rounder (32 overall) who the Saints got because of a variety of factors, including injury scares.
Tony Romo was a UDFA.
Tom Brady ... well everyone knows the former 6th round pick's story.
Other than that, the top 10 in passing this past year were Stafford, Eli Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, Ryan, Roethlisberger, and Newton.
Quote: I'd be more impressed with the poster that says: "if we do this in FA, then it makes sense for us to do such and such and take so and so with the bleep pick in the umpteenth round, and here's why that makes sense"
The poster that says.. "we should trade these 4 picks, move up to 2 and take RGIII" with no input on what we do (will do) in FA is just being silly.
No doubt...
That's what really PO's me when anything trade up for Luck or RGIII is spilled...Those that don't wanna do it call it "Mortgaging the Future" and "Selling the Farm"...I call BS...
When I DO IT...I back it up with what we could possibly do FA wise...REALISTICALLY...And what we could do with remaining picks this year...And I'll be damned every time I do it we come out looking really good...And have solidified the most important position on any team...QB...
It blows me away how many people underestimate the value of a solid QB in this league...It's staring us right in the face...Maybe for the LAST damn time for quite some time...Yet people make the dumb ass comment..."Take RGIII at 4 but DO NOT move up to secure him"...He's good enuff for ya' at 4 but not good enuff to give up a few picks for???...That makes no sense given the huge amount of picks we have collected for this year...USE THEM...
I have seen Griffin sooooo damn much on my DVR this year that his dreadlocks r burned in my brain...I don't care about his unorthodox footwork...It can be fixed...And much like Rivers who I loved after seeing him tear apart Ohio State...I don't care about his unorthodox throwing motion...His over the top release is as quick as anyone's...The kid is a play maker at QB...And he's gonna be the FACE of a Franchise...The IDENTITY...Hopefully it's Cleveland...
The one talking head who's opinion is the best out there is Jaworski...And he's HONEST about it...Good or Bad...I wanna hear what he says leading into April after Pro Days and finishing his film review of Griffin...He says he's 1/3rd of the way thru it as of a couple days ago and he's IMPRESSED...
I may just give him a ring and indicate he's full o' the brown stuff cause Hell ISN'T impressed...
Quote: The weird thing is, him coming out ad throwing for 480 yards and 6tds, somehow HURT him, perception wise...
I don't know why, but I think that the perception has been put out there by those that want the Browns to pass on even giving him a look. They claim that he had the best receivers in the league to throw to. That's arguable. Could just be the system, his knowledge of it and other factors like that.
It would help to have two QBs on the staff that understand the system (Flynn & McCoy) on the roster. I'd cut Seneca Wallace this weekend.
We could get Flynn on the relative cheap (dare I say, cheaper than RG3) and he's got a couple years of development on RG3 already. McCoy also has that benefit and bringing in Flynn would allow McCoy to get the chance to sit and learn that he was intended to receive but didn't.
Quote: It would help to have two QBs on the staff that understand the system (Flynn & McCoy) on the roster. I'd cut Seneca Wallace this weekend.
Yeah, that makes sense. Wallace knows the system as well as any qb in the league.
Quote: We could get Flynn on the relative cheap (dare I say, cheaper than RG3)
In terms of resources? Maybe. In terms of dollars? Nope. Not close. Look at newton's contract last year. Flynn has been expected to go something like 5 years, 50'million. Could that be hype? Sure. But those are the numbers that are out there for a reason.
Quote: I don't know why, but I think that the perception has been put out there by those that want the Browns to pass on even giving him a look. They claim that he had the best receivers in the league to throw to. That's arguable. Could just be the system, his knowledge of it and other factors like that.
It would help to have two QBs on the staff that understand the system (Flynn & McCoy) on the roster. I'd cut Seneca Wallace this weekend.
We could get Flynn on the relative cheap (dare I say, cheaper than RG3) and he's got a couple years of development on RG3 already. McCoy also has that benefit and bringing in Flynn would allow McCoy to get the chance to sit and learn that he was intended to receive but didn't.
anarch...I could not agree more with every point you made...
Signing Flynn would allow the Browns to save their #4, 22, 37 to address the needs on offense..WRs, Oline OR to address one of the defensive needs..DE, LB or CB. Heckert could use two of the top picks to address needs on offense and one to address a defensive need.
I don't know how much Wallace makes, but it seems logical to cut him and use that money to help land Flynn.
Adding Flynn would allow the Browns to continue with their rebuild via the draft philosophy while adding a QB who would not require a year or two of learning the WCO.
It just makes more sense to address 4 positions...one in free agency and 3 in the draft...
...rather than addressing 1 position at a cost of 4, 22, 37.
I kinda agree with this,but in my thinking I leave out the "more".So it makes sense to address 4 positions. The bee in my bonnet is this question "how good is good enough?" Can a team win it all with an avg.or slightly above Qb? = Flynn Or do you need a superstar? Witch from most accounts RG3 will become. I do appreciate all the info many of you have posted in 4000 QB threads currently running on here,it will be helpful in my determination on which direction I believe the team should go. For the 1st time in a long,long time,I'm confident they are going to make the correct decision.And that,of coarse,will pissoff half the people on here.
yeah, the announced media dollars would be 5years for $50mil. but, look at what came out about Kolb's similar deal. it was basically a 1yr $10mil guaranteed contract with 2012 guaranteed for another $10mil if he's in camp with AZ.
So, basically, it's 5 successive 1year deals for $10mil each.
I agree that RGIII would be less than that in pure dollars, but his entire 4-5 year contract would be guaranteed (as is standard for top10 picks now)
Quote: It would help to have two QBs on the staff that understand the system (Flynn & McCoy) on the roster. I'd cut Seneca Wallace this weekend.
Yeah, that makes sense. Wallace knows the system as well as any qb in the league.
Quote: We could get Flynn on the relative cheap (dare I say, cheaper than RG3)
In terms of resources? Maybe. In terms of dollars? Nope. Not close. Look at newton's contract last year. Flynn has been expected to go something like 5 years, 50'million. Could that be hype? Sure. But those are the numbers that are out there for a reason.
Yup. Wallace knows the WCO better than Flynn and McCoy and it's not even close.
As for Flynn, the asking price for a guy who has started two games against bad defenses while surrounded with offensive talent like no other team in the NFL is going to be BIG. If the discussion is about picks, yeah, he'd be cheaper. Duh. In terms of money, Griffin is gonna most likely be cheaper.
Wallace has been in it his entire career.... which is 9 years now, with 62 games played - many as a starter. That's an awful long time to be in one single system.
Flynn has only four years in and half as many games.
It's quite likely that they both know it about as well as you can know it, but Wallace is absolutely more experienced.
How do I know the sun is gonna come up tomorrow? I can't know for sure but the evidence says it will.
How do I know Wallace understands more about the WCO than Flynn? I can't know for sure but based on the fact that Wallace was learning the WCO in the NFL since Matt Flynn was in high school, I'd be willing to bet just about anything he does.
Back to the point about whether Wallace deserves to stay on the roster... If he's so brilliant in the WCO then somebody would have picked him up to be the starter somewhere.. I don't care how much he understands it, it seems that he can't take that understanding and get it to translate into production on the field... We don't need a coach in a helmet, we need QBs who can play and grow...
So if you think he can PLAY better than Colt, then keep Wallace.. if you just think he knows the system better but can't win games if needed, then cut him...
He's the perfect backup, because he's good enough to run the team for a couple of weeks, and knows how to make sure that everyone is lined up right, knows the reads, and all of that kind of stuff ..... but he's not so good that he risks splitting the team like the Holcomb/Couch situation did. (well, as long as we have a good QB anyway)
He's just flawed enough that no one expects him to be a full time starter. I can't remember the last guy who was 5'10", and started regularly at QB in the NFL.
Even Sipe was 6'1". (and for those who want to feel really old ....... Sipe is now 62 years old.)
Nah, I don't think there's a choice here. You keep the cheaper, younger guy in McCoy who may possibly have upside over the more expensive, older guy who has no upside.
You don't keep a worse back-up because you are afraid the starter can't separate himself and a QB controversy would ensue.. How bad would we have to be for people to be calling for Wallace to start? Oh yea, some did that this year.
If a guy thats been in the league as long as Wallace doesn't know to down the freaking ball when time is running out to end the half and you're inside the five, he doesn't need to be on the roster.
Quote: how do you know Wallace knows the WCO better than Flynn?
Must be because Wallace came from Seattle and Holmgren wanted him here. Of course, McCoy beat him out for the job even with Holmgren & Shurmur (both who are supposed to be WCO gurus). Seems to me that he's not as good as McCoy in the WCO after having been in the system for years.
Quote: Seneca's been around a bit longer but there is no way to know which one knows it better at this point.
The Colt McCoy haters will just say, "But...but...but..."
