I understand that switching to 3-4 is gonna require some different types of players in the front 7. But if we are gonna have an attacking defense then you HAVE to have 2 viable corners!!!!!
Picking a CB in 3rd you might get lucky but the odds are you wont.
Picking up a OLB or DE in the 3rd ... there is still some good quality talent there. Especially in this draft with the DE's
Your just not gonna find that plug n play CB in the 3rd like you can with OLB and de's.
I would think it would be easier to find an elite corner in the third round and later than it is to find a elite pass rusher in the third round or later.
I say this after doing no research and without thinking about it much.
Quote: I would think it would be easier to find an elite corner in the third round and later than it is to find a elite pass rusher in the third round or later.
I say this after doing no research and without thinking about it much.
I would disagree. Elite CB's go high 1st round. Good Cb's go late 1st round. Guys who fall to the 3rd who can be good are small school guys that teams are afraid to take a chance on because of the quality of competition they faced making evaluation difficult.
Rush OLb's are easier because you have a lot of athletic guys who can chase down the Qb but don't fit size wise into the 43 DE mold. That eliminates half of the teams from drafting them. You also have the small school guy who drops because of the competition. And you have guys who don't have production because of the scheme or the way they wee used. An example of this would be Sean Porter Texas A&M. He had 9.5 sacks and 17 tfl in 2011 but they switche schemes and in 2012 he only had 3.5 sacks and 6.5 tfl because they asked himto drop into coverage more than rush the Qb. Porter is projected to the 3rd round and is the guy I would target this year in round 3 after taking a Cb in round 1 (unless Moore is available).
And I would be happy dopping down in round 1 and taking Banks or Rhodes.
I've been saying this in numerous threads.. the only thing that may keep us from pulling the trigger is if our head guys say we are drafting BPA.
At 6, I dont know if he is BPA, but he definitely fills a need. I want him on our team. I want to see our secondary on fire next season!! and drafting Milliner will make us stronger.
I'm hoping for Milliner in the 1st, and Bacari Rambo in the 3rd.. thats my wishlist right now.
Quote: I would think it would be easier to find an elite corner in the third round and later than it is to find a elite pass rusher in the third round or later.
I say this after doing no research and without thinking about it much.
I think it goes without saying that the odds of finding an elite anything, except maybe punter or FG kicker, in the 3rd round or later are pretty slim... At that point you are looking for potential starters/contributors and if one of them happens to become elite, well then you got pretty lucky. So at that point, you usually have 2 options, you can go for a good player from a good program who will likely be a serviceable guy for you or you can roll the dice on a great player from a small time program who isn't tested against great competition...
And this is just my own unscientific opinion, but I would think you would have better odds of drafting a physical specimen of a man and turn him into a pass rusher than you would of finding a guy with the skill set to play corner...
It's a passing league right now, we are a disaster when Haden is out. When he is in, opposing QB's were targeting Sheldon or whoever was playing the other side.
IMO, go after Milliner hard. If we get him, then it becomes more difficult to pass on the Browns. Teams will have to try the run / short pass to the TE because we would be weaker at LB
If Milliner is gone, then frankly my choice becomes difficult. I'd lean toward the hybrid DE / LB
I like Millner as well. You see him in the first? Is he someone you would go up for? Just wasn't clear what you were suggesting. Has a motor and skills.
I just think there are more options in the 3rd and 4th rounds to find someone who can come in and contribute at De or OLb. More so than finding a CB that can do so. I'm not saying it doesnt happen. But with this class I think there are a lot more DE's with talent than CB's
Quote: I like Millner as well. You see him in the first? Is he someone you would go up for? Just wasn't clear what you were suggesting. Has a motor and skills.
He must because the kid won't be there in the 2nd.
If we wnt him and don't want him at #6, we better not drop more than 3-4 slots because he will surely be gone by then.....corner is the new defensive skill position.
The more I look at this draft, the uglier it gets. We're sitting pretty at 6, but it isn't that pretty. Many of these "top talents" like Jones, Mingo and Werner have serious flags, and the few homerun guys either won't be there when we pick, we won't need them because we're good at their position, or we're drafting too high to take him, such as one of the guards.
I'm zeroing in on Millner. There's a chance he's gone when we pick, but if he's there, I'm starting to firm up my belief that's who I want.
Just as a heads up.. his name is spelled Milliner. There are 2 i's
And if you read my post, thats who I want. IF it's true that this has become a passing league and I'm not so sure it has.. there is very much a place for the run game.. but I digress..
IF this is a passing league, you want the best outfield you can get. Haden, Ward, Milliner would go a long ways towards accomplishing just that.
The best way to help corners are to find great rushers, but we may not have the ideal fit at 6 in this draft. Since we absolutely, positively need a corner to pair with Haden, Milliner seems like the right combination of value and need.
The best way to help corners are to find great rushers, but we may not have the ideal fit at 6 in this draft. Since we absolutely, positively need a corner to pair with Haden, Milliner seems like the right combination of value and need.
I think it's obvious.I think all of us saw what happened when Haden was out. Our DB's got torched. When Haden was back.. opposing QB's simply threw to the other side.
I thought Sheldon Brown played much better than the fan reception last year.
Considering he is getting over the hill I have no problem with finding his replacement, but I wouldn't consider it to have much to do with his performance.
One problem with Haden being out was we also had Brown out at times and Patterson milking an injury. Skrine, Wade, and Bademosi/Ventrone/Hagg was a really weak lineup.
I'd be happy to bring in a top corner or top pass rush in the upcoming draft. If we can snag a FA FS that would make for quite a defense.
Quote: The more I look at this draft, the uglier it gets. We're sitting pretty at 6, but it isn't that pretty. Many of these "top talents" like Jones, Mingo and Werner have serious flags, and the few homerun guys either won't be there when we pick, we won't need them because we're good at their position, or we're drafting too high to take him, such as one of the guards.
I'm zeroing in on Millner. There's a chance he's gone when we pick, but if he's there, I'm starting to firm up my belief that's who I want.
I pretty much agree except being to high to draft a great player. It almost sounds goofy.
My top 3 at this point is Moore, Millner, Warmack. I take whichever of the 3 is there or take them in that order.
The others, I agree, there are flags I don't want to chance at this point in the teams development.
But, since I have said those are my 3, you can bet none of them will be selected by the Browns.
Milliner is the consensus #1 Cb according to draftniks. How much better is he than Jonathan Banks Miss ST or Xavier Rhodes FSU?
If anyone has seen more than one to two games from each of these guys I would love a comparison. From what I have seen:
Milliner - Very solid cover guy Very good in run support.
Banks - Was a turnover maker last season but much less so this past one. I heard he was playing through an injury (Ankle?) the 2nd half of the season. Not sure how he is in run support
Rhodes - The biggest of the 3. Very physical in coverage which may fit the defensive scheme that we are planning on running.
Of course if we like Banks or Rhodes nearly has much as Milliner that would allow us to trade down is an offer was made. Banks projects in the 10-15 range, most commonly to TB at 13. Rhodes is currently being projected between 20 and 40.
If the Browns stay at 6 and Millner is there I agree he would be the best choice.
However, because of the talent of this draft and the way this draft lays out as far as strength trading down if a partner can be found may be the way to go.
The whole quarterback question still remains. If the Browns move on Alex Smith then that part of the formula for success is addressed.
Free agency could be used to address LB. Anthony Spencer would help there. Also, there may be a corner in free agency that could help. Sean Smith from Miami could be a good pick up.
The sixth pick at this point is up in the air. Not sure the value is there. Finding a partner to trade with does not always present itself.
The dynamics of the draft are just so crazy. Your team, when you pick, who is there, the talent in the draft by position, so many variables. That is why I am still livid about last year. We had a major need at the most important position on the field. We had the ammo to move up if necessary. The talent was there to be had. All the dynamics were in place. Which of course rarely happens. Inexcusable that Griffin is not a Cleveland Brown.
Recovery from such an error is very hard to overcome when the pursuit of a championship is at stake. So here we stand with the sixth pick and the prospects for a significant jump in improvement are just not there.
The best way to help corners are to find great rushers, but we may not have the ideal fit at 6 in this draft. Since we absolutely, positively need a corner to pair with Haden, Milliner seems like the right combination of value and need.
Let me ask u 2 things Toad.
1) What has a higher probability of success in this so-called pass-happy league?
1a) A top cover corner having to shadow a receiver for 5+ seconds because of no pressure on a QB. (Good luck to any team that believes this one)
1b) A powerful pass rush to where corners don't need to shadow a receiver for 5+ seconds.
2) Do u take Milliner over Moore or Werner if either r there at 6?
In our situation, with a top cover guy in Haden in the fold and no sure pass rusher at OLB, we absolutely have to take/value pass rusher higher than CB. Especially since no2 CBs aren't all that important....it got important to us last season because Haden missed 5 games, but the no2 WRs Milliner would have to cover aren't so much game changers than some slot WR out there, so an argument could be made that an elite nickel-CB is as important as a good no2 outside CB. I'd try to bring in 1 or even 2 CBs via FA and concentrate on pass rusher at 6 overall
Quote: In our situation, with a top cover guy in Haden in the fold and no sure pass rusher at OLB, we absolutely have to take/value pass rusher higher than CB. Especially since no2 CBs aren't all that important....it got important to us last season because Haden missed 5 games, but the no2 WRs Milliner would have to cover aren't so much game changers than some slot WR out there, so an argument could be made that an elite nickel-CB is as important as a good no2 outside CB. I'd try to bring in 1 or even 2 CBs via FA and concentrate on pass rusher at 6 overall
My thoughts exactly.
Everyone freaks how the secondary collapsed when Haden was out. Well imagine that.
Quote: In our situation, with a top cover guy in Haden in the fold and no sure pass rusher at OLB, we absolutely have to take/value pass rusher higher than CB. Especially since no2 CBs aren't all that important....it got important to us last season because Haden missed 5 games, but the no2 WRs Milliner would have to cover aren't so much game changers than some slot WR out there, so an argument could be made that an elite nickel-CB is as important as a good no2 outside CB. I'd try to bring in 1 or even 2 CBs via FA and concentrate on pass rusher at 6 overall
My thoughts exactly.
Everyone freaks how the secondary collapsed when Haden was out. Well imagine that.
I could get more in line with the idea of going pass rusher before CB if our # 2 CB was not 30+ years old and our # 3 was not a 2nd yr kid from Tenn Chattanooga picked in the 5th Rd.
I don't think we have to have a stud opposite Haden...but we need a good # 2 CB who can step up for a week or two if he has to do so. We do not have that guy right now.
If we can find a "good" # 2 CB via FA, I'm all about pass rusher (1st) in the draft - unless that guy is rated as having "potential". At #6 overall I want a sure thing...if there is not a sure-thing pass rusher at #6, I'm taking the next sure-thing left on the board...even a G.
If we do not address the # 2 CB in FA...and it's Milliner or J Jones or Werner sitting there at #6...I'm going Milliner. The only pass rusher I like at #6 is Moore. I'd be more willing to take a guy like Werner at # 6 IF we addressed CB #2 before the draft.
The bottom line is that we need both a pass rusher and a # 2 CB. I get the argument that a stud pass rusher is better than a stud CB and I agree...except when you have no #2 CB.
I think we desperately need a # 2 CB. If we don't get that in FA, I believe our only option is to get him at # 6 overall...I don't think that # 2 CB will be there with our 3rd Rd pick.
Quote: The more I look at this draft, the uglier it gets. We're sitting pretty at 6, but it isn't that pretty. Many of these "top talents" like Jones, Mingo and Werner have serious flags, and the few homerun guys either won't be there when we pick, we won't need them because we're good at their position, or we're drafting too high to take him, such as one of the guards.
I'm zeroing in on Millner. There's a chance he's gone when we pick, but if he's there, I'm starting to firm up my belief that's who I want.
I pretty much agree except being to high to draft a great player. It almost sounds goofy.
My top 3 at this point is Moore, Millner, Warmack. I take whichever of the 3 is there or take them in that order.
The others, I agree, there are flags I don't want to chance at this point in the teams development.
But, since I have said those are my 3, you can bet none of them will be selected by the Browns.
Hopefully Lombardi agrees.
He is the one fly in the ointment IMHO and his past history indicates he falls for the media hyped flash in the pans way too often.
One thing I think we need to stop doing is drafting players while using the guy they'll replace as a benchmark. We have to start using the League as a benchmark. The question should not be "Is this guy better than Sheldon Brown or Buster Skrine at CB, or Shawn Lauvao or Pinkston/Greco at G, etc.". The discussion needs to be "is this guy NFL-quality?". That's why we shouldn't blink if Warmack is the guy we get at 6, because he is - by all accounts - an All-Pro quality Guard. Thats why, IMO, we can't keep trading down to stock up on picks that will be used on guys that are not more than average NFL players. Thats a formula for mediocrity if ever there's been one. We are not in position, ala New England, to trade down for quantity vs quality, because we aren't good enough to only "maintain". We have to improve, and the only way to do that is to draft excellence - by NFL standards - when and where we can.
The best way to help corners are to find great rushers, but we may not have the ideal fit at 6 in this draft. Since we absolutely, positively need a corner to pair with Haden, Milliner seems like the right combination of value and need.
Let me ask u 2 things Toad.
1) What has a higher probability of success in this so-called pass-happy league?
1a) A top cover corner having to shadow a receiver for 5+ seconds because of no pressure on a QB. (Good luck to any team that believes this one)
1b) A powerful pass rush to where corners don't need to shadow a receiver for 5+ seconds.
2) Do u take Milliner over Moore or Werner if either r there at 6?
It's a little more complicated than that, but I know where you're going man.
Since I referenced the best way to help corners are with a pass-rush, it's obvious how I feel about the need for rushers, especially on a defense that has only one guy who knows how to get to the QB in Sheard.
Now here's where complications set in...
There are red-flags regarding the two guys you mentioned. I've gone back and watched as much game-footage as I could find on Werner. I'd noted that he has the quickest first-step in this draft, and one of the quicker first-steps I've ever seen. He's a natural rusher which would translate well to the NFL. However, I can honestly say that I've never seen a player who quits on plays as often as Werner, meaning he's the antithesis of a "high-motor guy." If Werner doesn't get to the QB, he literally stops playing all-together. In a 3-4, you have to have guys that are active, and Werner is a quitter. When watching him out in space, you don't see a guy who is nearly as natural as when playing on the line. He becomes a project as a 3-4 OLB, and when you combine that with his highly questionable motor, you're suddenly making a HUGE gamble with the 6th pick in the draft.
Werner isn't even a consideration for me if I'm a 3-4 team.
As for Moore, I feel he's a product of name-recognition right now. That isn't questioning his talent, but when I've watched him play, I don't see a guy that his heads-and-shoulders above the rest of the 3-4 OLB's coming out. If he isn't absolutely better than the rest, there's no reason to spend the 6th pick in the draft on a player when a similar player can be had later in the draft or even in free agency.
Furthermore, one has to compare what can be had in free agency. Are we strapped for cash and stuck only drafting players? No, we have plenty of room to acquire talent like Kruger or Spencer or others. But what about at cornerback? Is there a guy later in the draft or in free agency that matches up to Milliner? That's where further analysis is required.
Yes, we need someone to bring some rush ability, but we also need a starting corner.
It's going to be harder to acquire a front-line corner than an OLB. That's why, as of right now, it's my opinion the best guy in terms of value would be taking Milliner.
There are actually other guys I'd take over Moore, including Jones.
Frankly, I'd rather acquire a veteran for the other OLB spot.
One problem with Haden being out was we also had Brown out at times and Patterson milking an injury. Skrine, Wade, and Bademosi/Ventrone/Hagg was a really weak lineup.
I'd be happy to bring in a top corner or top pass rush in the upcoming draft. If we can snag a FA FS that would make for quite a defense.
hit the nail on the head ! Patterson's already gone and sheldon probably wont be resigned.
If Millininer is there its a no brainer. If not I think the best way to fill that outfield need is with a trade down and taking a guy. Not FA, thats the route we went through with Sheldon, and not with a 2nd or 3rd day pick.
There are a number of guys in FA who are possible #2s if we go that route. Problem with FA predictions is most of them end up re-signing with their teams.
I'd be happy to bring back Sheldon Brown. Some names out there like Grimes, Talib, Rodgers-Cromartie, Jammer, Clements, Florence, T. Newman, Porter, Routt, M. Trufant; all seem like possible #2's to me. How many actually make it to FA at a reasonable price is another question. (I intentionally avoided including pac-man )
I'd have no problem with signing Milliner so long as we are able to fill other needs. Hard to argue against having quality corners.
It is reasonable to expect we may look to fill the CB 3/4 slot this coming draft. Need to remember we are down both Brown and Patterson.
Quote: I think that we definitely lead another starting CB to pair with Haden. I would put that at the top of the list, along with a serious pass rusher.
I agree. Now it's a matter of deciding on is Millner plus some 3rd round player the best option or is Moore etc plus a 3rd round corner the best option?
I think a big part of our decision will be made for us in that I doubt Millner falls past Detroit. They have needed corners forever. This might be the year their guy falls to them.
Either way, it is my sincere hope we are active in FA. I know we want to build through the draft but sometimes teams need to make smart free agent choices and fix a need or two. That not only makes you better but it also allows you to draft the best players and not allow needs to dictate who you draft.
My feeling is we don't necessarily need a shut down corner opposite Haden, we just need a quality corner. I don't see any of those on the roster at the moment. Decent guys, sure, but not a guy who you have a high confidence level he is going to hang a good deal of the time with a teams #2 receiver.
This year, I admit needs is going to dictate our draft process more than maybe we have in the past and more than I'd like, but it is what it is. We need backers/pass rushers. No way around it.
That is why I hope we do look for free agents and address one of the two big needs on D. Once we finally find out who indeed is free and hasn't been signed to some extension, we can decide which guys we want to target.
Quote: I agree. Now it's a matter of deciding on is Millner plus some 3rd round player the best option or is Moore etc plus a 3rd round corner the best option?
Don't forget free agency, 'Peen. If we intend to sign a Kruger or a Spencer the need for an edge-rusher disappears.
Quote: I agree. Now it's a matter of deciding on is Millner plus some 3rd round player the best option or is Moore etc plus a 3rd round corner the best option?
Don't forget free agency, 'Peen. If we intend to sign a Kruger or a Spencer the need for an edge-rusher disappears.
My concern there is I expect Sheard to go strong side again, which is where Spencer and Kruger also both play. In that case, could one of those three project as a weak side OLB?
My thinking (which will assuredly be incorrect) was that Sheard would be a candidate to move back to WOLB. If his forte is rushing and he's got to learn some coverages, then acquiring a vet to line-up over the TE would make more sense. Plus I also believe he started out at RDE as a rookie.
Still, I believe I've seen Kruger and Spencer moved around, though I couldn't begin to tell you how many snaps either guy took on either side.
We drafted Sheard to be our RDE. He played strong side in college and couldn't adjust to the weak side. He couldn't get comfortable flipped so they moved him back.
I agree , and thanks for the clarification. If you want a drafted corner rather than FA, then it better be quick in the draft. I think a great corner forgives a lot of other secondary junk we are prone to. I would make this a top priority either route.
To me, the worst case scenario is entering the draft without a real #2 at CB. That would make our pick very obvious. like last year at RB. Perhaps even more obvious b/c last year we had an add'l 1st rounder and that early 2nd rounder. This year, we have nothing until the 3rd round.
Philly is sitting at #4. I could see them getting add'l picks out of Banner for Milliner like MIN did with Richardson last year. And I don't like it.
I would love to answer this right before the draft or during the draft..but anyway I like Milliner BUT, he is stiff in the hips which for me isn't that great. Plus he's never been asked to backpeddle -turn-run with the receiver. Thats got to be taught to him, so I expect him to get burned some his first year. X.Rhodes,and J.Banks are two corners I would like to have if Banner gets a tradedown. They may have less speed but they are more complete corners and are more flexible.
i do think we need another good cb. last year we played against some good qb's. they didn't challenge hayden because its wasn't the smart thing to do with such a drop off at the other cb. brown wasn't horrible {he did make plays} but the other qb's thought it was the safer bet to go against brown rather than hayden.
^ Saw this earlier today. I'm always skeptical about these things because you never know how many "takes" are involved....for example, Weeden's pigeon throws.
Either way, in the end, they gave him a high grade. Another person on that list of top 5 DBs to have participated in their testing was Haden...as you can see by simply watching the vid.
Interesting Vaccaro is also in the mix. Two "high" scorers in the same draft.
I wonder how the other corners in this draft would compare to Milliner. I'm guessing most corners good enough to go in the first round would be able to match these totals.
Many are hoping for a trade down this year to acquire extra picks. I'm starting to favor trading UP a couple spots to take Milliner. We have one starter at corner now. Unless they pull off a trade I don't see any worthy candidates left in FA. Even if we do trade down and pick up a corner later, how many SURE first day starting corners are to be had? Milliner IS a sure first day starter. He may make the usual rookie mistakes, but he can plug in and play right away. Otherwise, we better plan on getting lit up until we DO find another starter at corner. Then there's our hole at safety.....
My sig pimps Jordan only because Milliner won't be there at 6. So trade up or take the pass rusher and hope we get a LOT of sacks this year.....
If we're going to win some games this season we either DRASTICALLY improve this secondary, or we score 30+ points each and every game. Probably have to do that anyway, due to the switch to a 3-4 creating holes in our front 7.
The only way you trade up for a player is if he is far and away better than everyone else at his position. If the others are comparable, or even close, just take one of them and enjoy the picks you didn't give up to move up.
Quote: I think weve improved the front 7, and with a better pass rush the need for a top corner is less demanding. I think we'll be okay.
I disagree. With the pass happy NFL you better have good corners. Pass rush is mitigated by quick plays, and QB's who can run and get outside the rush, so you better have corners who can stick to the hip at the line.
IMO, corner is now the premium position on D much like MLB was 30 years ago and DE's were 15 years ago.
If your corners can't cover the first 6 steps and you have a great pass rushing team, guess what? The ball is delivered in 4-5 steps. Offense holds the option of when to deliver the ball. If you can't take that away, you are wasting your money on the pass rushers
My opinion is there is a lot of depth at the corner position this year. The guy rated at the very top is not light-years better than the number 7,8 or ninth ranked prospect. The Browns have a real possibility of a trade down and acquiring extra picks. A second round selection and another late round pick is more valuable than just staying at 6 and taking Milliner. Hell, that's more valuable than taking Ansah at 6 and I want him more than Milliner.
Quote: OK, I guess I'll have to adjust my thinking on CB.
I am not trying to Bully you, and don't know if I could if I wanted....which I don't......just saying you better be able to cover on the edges.
Corner is a hard position to play since you are always in a reactionary position. Those that are good are on a island almost every play. You don't usually see when others on the D get beat, but you see when a corner gets beat. It's there as the chains are moved or the Ref signals TD.
I have often talked about how elite QBs have to be able to make throws to their receivers tot he 4 areas of a receiver's route, over or under, inside or out, with accuracy and quickness.
The QB and receiver have a natural advantage because they know where the ball is going. Now a CB can pick up clues as to where the ball is going that help him figure out where the ball is going before it is released, and defend, but even the best at this get caught in the wrong spot. If the DB decides that the play is going underneath, and he tries to undercut the pass only to see the ball wind up going over the top ...... or if he decides to bite on an inside move, and leaves himself open to a back shoulder throw to the outside, well then great physical talent helps them make up the "difference".
So, a CB has to be able to read clues from the QB and WR ...... see and understand where the ball is going, and be able to adjust his coverage accordingly, and then he must be able to use his physical talent and abilities to compensate for the times he gets beat. It's quite a huge package of abilities that have to combine in one player. It's no wonder that there are so few truly elite corners in the league, or coming up.
some folks are talking about the pass rush. I agree. It helps.
But if Skrine is asked to cover a big WR on the outside, that pass rush better get there quick. Because those defensive holding calls don't take more than 2 seconds.
Quote: That is not true. If he is there we still have to consider trading down.
If Milliner is NOT a no brainer if avalable @ #6 then are you suggesting we bybass the drafts top CB to pick up a 2nd Rd. pick and then take who? Rhodes? Just wondering ...
Sounds right to me. There's no award for getting the "best" player at a position. We need a good number 2 corner to complement Haden. Milliner isn't the only good one. Having Trufant/Rhodes and an extra second to pick up a really good player (could be Okafor, Elam, Kelce, Brown, Woods) would offer more value to the team than just Milliner.
Quote: Sounds right to me. There's no award for getting the "best" player at a position. We need a good number 2 corner to complement Haden. Milliner isn't the only good one. Having Trufant/Rhodes and an extra second to pick up a really good player (could be Okafor, Elam, Kelce, Brown, Woods) would offer more value to the team than just Milliner.
Ok, I understand where your coming from and I would not have a heart attack if we do what you suggest, but with Milliner and Haden we could have arguably best set of CB'sin the NFL ...
We could also have one of the best CB tandems if we draft Rhodes. And we would also pick up more picks.
Another reason we should trade down if Milliner is on the board is because we could demand more from our trade partner because we don't have to trade the pick. If Milliner is gone we lose a little leverage.
I disagree, If Milliner is gone, that means that one of the OT's is available or Geno Smith. I think we sit in a good spot to pick up a couple of picks.
Quote: Sounds right to me. There's no award for getting the "best" player at a position. We need a good number 2 corner to complement Haden. Milliner isn't the only good one. Having Trufant/Rhodes and an extra second to pick up a really good player (could be Okafor, Elam, Kelce, Brown, Woods) would offer more value to the team than just Milliner.
I'll say this again..Trufant may be the better coverage guy out there.
Alabama's Dee Milliner says he and Cleveland Brown Joe Haden would be great combination
By Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer April 11, 2013
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Alabama's Dee Milliner is confident he and Joe Haden will form the best cornerback tandem in the NFL if the Browns tab him with the No. 6 overall pick in the draft.
"I really think we can," Milliner said in a phone interview today. "Not to be cocky or anything, but I think we'd be two really dynamic players who could go out and do great things for this defense."
Can he think of another pair that'd top them?
"No, not right now, I don't think so," he said. "Oh man, that would be awesome. I think we'd make a great combo and we'd accomplish some great things together."
Milliner, the undisputed premier cornerback in this draft, had the thrill of meeting former first-rounder Haden on Monday when he paid a pre-draft visit to the Browns. The two sat down and chatted, and Milliner watched one of his film heroes come to life.
"I study the top cornerbacks in the league to see what techniques I can put into my arsenal," Milliner. "I've watched film of guys like Champ Bailey, Darrelle Revis, Patrick Peterson and Joe. Joe has great fundamentals and he's definitely going to be one of the great DBs in the game. I really enjoyed meeting him. I've played against him, but have never really gotten a chance to talk to him."
What would it mean to have the two roaming the defensive backfield together?
"I definitely think we'd be a playoff contender," Milliner said.
Haden isn't the only Browns star Milliner connected with during his visit and would love to play with. A selection by the Browns would mean a reunion with former Alabama teammate Trent Richardson, with whom Milliner won one of his two national championships.
"I spent a lot of time with Trent when I was in Cleveland," said Milliner. "He told me how great it is here and how much I'd love it. We talked about we talked about how great it would be to play on the same team again and lead another team to a championship."
Milliner (6-0, 201) laughed when told of Richardson's in-season remark that defensive backs often avoid tackling him because they "don't want any trouble."
"That's true," Milliner said. "He's like tackling a Mack truck. But going against Trent in practice is the main reason I became a more physical tackler. He's so big and strong, he prepared me really well for what I'll face in the NFL."
The Browns weren't able to conduct a private workout with Milliner because he underwent surgery March 12 to repair a torn labrum. But he's confident he'll be full-strength by training camp "or sometime in August at the latest. I'm working really hard to get back as fast as I can."
But Milliner, one of at least a half-dozen players the Browns are considering with their top pick, played so well last season and ran so fast at the NFL Combine that he's a sure top 10 pick -- and maybe top five -- even without the workouts. He blazed a 4.37 in the 40 -- second fastest among cornerbacks.
"I've run faster, and think I could've done better, but overall, I was happy with my time," he said.
According to STATS, Inc, opposing quarterbacks completed just 40.6 percent of their attempts against Milliner, and he yielded only two TDs in 69 targets. He's had only five interceptions the past two seasons, but tied for first in the country with 22 pass breakups in 2012.
"I think there will be plenty of opportunities for interceptions in the NFL," he said. "Especially if Joe and I are on the field together."
ESPN Sports Science also studied Milliner and rated him off the charts athletically. He ranked in the 92nd percentile of athletes they've studied, which put him between Pro Bowlers Patrick Peterson and Antonio Cromartie. His acceleration topped that of Adrian Peterson his change of direction matched Cromartie's. His 41-inch vertical leap and his ability to cover the out-route ranked among the best ever.
"I was really happy with how all of that came out," he said. "Whether or not it helped my draft status, you never know."
Not only does Milliner consider himself the best defensive back in the draft, he also feels worthy of the No. 1 overall pick. Of the last 10 drafts, only two cornerbacks have gone in the top five: Peterson in 2011 and Terence Newman 2003.
"I think I could be (worth the No. 1 overall)," he said. "I bring a lot to the table, the way I go about preparing and making plays, the physical style I play. A team wouldn't be sorry."
NFL Network's Mike Mayock has become more impressed with Milliner throughout the pre-draft process.
"What I see on tape is a tough instinctive guy who tackles, which I love," Mayock said. "I love a corner that will tackle. When you come out of Nick Saban's Alabama program, especially when you're a defensive back which Nick takes a big interest in as a former defensive back coach, you are well-coached. He understands zone concepts, he plays man-to-man, he presses, he tackles."
Saban also has a good relationship with Browns GM Mike Lombardi, and will give him a thorough appraisal. Question is, will the Browns Roll 'Tide again come April 25th?
Quote: Sounds right to me. There's no award for getting the "best" player at a position.
Well said.
That thinking is what scares me into thinking we might end up with Geno. The whole "the biggest mistake a new regime can make is not getting their own QB" rationale.
Quote: That is not true. If he is there we still have to consider trading down.
If Milliner is NOT a no brainer if avalable @ #6 then are you suggesting we bybass the drafts top CB to pick up a 2nd Rd. pick and then take who? Rhodes? Just wondering ...
I've read a little on both guys,, not a guru but it appears the biggest difference is that Rhodes is a bit slower than Milliner but has better overall skills on coverage.
So I don't know but it seems to be that it isn't a major drop.
So yeah,, based on the little I know, that sounds like a plan.
"I spent a lot of time with Trent when I was in Cleveland," said Milliner. "He told me how great it is here and how much I'd love it. We talked about we talked about how great it would be to play on the same team again and lead another team to a championship."
the funny part is I still can't figure out if the "we talked about" was supposed to be in there twice or if it was not
"I spent a lot of time with Trent when I was in Cleveland," said Milliner. "He told me how great it is here and how much I'd love it. We talked about we talked about how great it would be to play on the same team again and lead another team to a championship."
the funny part is I still can't figure out if the "we talked about" was supposed to be in there twice or if it was not
Not really sure it matters, but did you ever start to say something, stop, then repeat it and then complete the thought? I have.
I think the move towards online publishing has resulted in less (or worse) copy editing ... I notice lots more errors in internet news reporting than in the days of print news.
If that's the case, and it certainly seems to be, then you go with Millner. Millner is faster, the same build, and has more room to grow.
I love Millner, and I love his attitude on everything. He and Joe Haden would be the perfect fit in the defensive back field and we could match up fairly easily with other teams.
The Eagles have the fourth overall pick and they have visited with plenty of the players expected to go early in the first round of the draft, but they won’t be meeting with the man considered to be the best cornerback in this year’s class.
Alabama cornerback Dee Milliner told Jeff McLane of the Philadelphia Inquirer that the Eagles cancelled a scheduled visit this week. The Eagles have signed Cary Williams and Bradley Fletcher to help replace the departed Nnamdi Asomugha and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, but they are expected to make some further additions to the unit via the draft.
Canceling Milliner’s visit could be seen as a sign that he won’t be one of those additions, especially with the Eagles spending lots of time talking to offensive and defensive linemen recently. Of course, one can only take so much at face value in the silly season that leads up to the draft so the cancellation could also be regarded as a smokescreen designed to keep others from learning of any Philly interest in Milliner’s services.
Milliner has met with plenty of other teams picking in the top 10 and he’s expected to be off the board early in the first day whether or not the Eagles are the team picking him.
Report: League personnel think Milliner reports part of “smear campaign” to lower draft stock
Posted by Curtis Crabtree April 23, 2013, 12:17 AM EDT
‘Tis the season for misinformation with the NFL draft just three days away and Alabama cornerback Dee Milliner could be the latest prospect to find himself in the crosshairs.
A report came out Monday saying that Milliner may not be ready for the start of training camp as he continues to recover from a surgery to his labrum following the NFL combine. If true, it’s increasingly more likely that Milliner, considered the top defensive back in the draft, could slip during the first round on Thursday night.
However, the validity of that information may be tough to determine this close to the draft. In fact, those around the NFL are already questioning it.
“Teams have known about these surgeries all along,” a source told Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer. “They haven’t been a secret and this is not a big issue.”
Per Cabot, those she has talked to believe the negative reports are part of a smear campaign against Milliner in hopes of dropping his draft stock. A team hopeful to snag Milliner later in the draft could be pushing the narrative of his recovery not going to plan in hopes teams would shy away at the last-minute.
However, with all the medical checks prospects undergo during the lead up to the draft – Milliner was evaluated again by league personnel at the combine re-check just three weeks ago – teams should feel very comfortable about their evaluation of his medicals. It would be a surprise to see his stock slide considerably at this stage in the process.
I had Rhodes ahead of Millner anyway but that is a lot of injuries for a guy playing in Bama's secondary. I can understand if it was Vandy's corner having to make all the tackles.
49ers and Browns trade rumors have been brewing since the owners meetings. not sure what kind of relationship is there between the 2 regimes but they did just finish the Colt trade and we all know teams often start big trades by completing minor ones first.
49ers have like 13 picks and only a few holes. Even with prac squad, they'll have a hard time keeping all of their draft picks. If they don't trade up to get a guy like Milliner, watch for them to trade out for future picks.
Yeah, I've read this somewhere too. Also, Lombardi interviewed there a couple seasons back for the GM job. Maybe he knew people currently in the FO/ownership world as well.
Quote: 49ers have like 13 picks and only a few holes. Even with prac squad, they'll have a hard time keeping all of their draft picks. If they don't trade up to get a guy like Milliner, watch for them to trade out for future picks.
I don't think there is any way the 49ers make 13 draft selections. It's like the Cavaliers having 5 draft picks in two rounds with a 12 person roster. It just won't happen. The fact the 49ers have little holes to fill (like you mentioned, Don) makes you think they'll try and target a guy they like. I think it may be a WR in the mid-teens if they want to move up. Patterson maybe? Just a guess.
Not sure SF Fran will make a move all the way up to 6. I'd think that would include a future 1st rounder among their first two picks this year (31 & 34).... Maybe that's excessive but moving from 31 ALL THE WAY to 6 pays a steep price. Precedence in the 2011 CLE-ATL trade is there as a baseline for negotiations. But the jump San Fran would make is larger.
Quote: 49ers have like 13 picks and only a few holes. Even with prac squad, they'll have a hard time keeping all of their draft picks. If they don't trade up to get a guy like Milliner, watch for them to trade out for future picks.
I don't think there is any way the 49ers make 13 draft selections. It's like the Cavaliers having 5 draft picks in two rounds with a 12 person roster. It just won't happen. The fact the 49ers have little holes to fill (like you mentioned, Don) makes you think they'll try and target a guy they like. I think it may be a WR in the mid-teens if they want to move up. Patterson maybe? Just a guess.
Not sure SF Fran will make a move all the way up to 6. I'd think that would include a future 1st rounder among their first two picks this year (31 & 34).... Maybe that's excessive but moving from 31 ALL THE WAY to 6 pays a steep price. Precedence in the 2011 CLE-ATL trade is there as a baseline for negotiations. But the jump San Fran would make is larger.
Moving up that far ... next year's 1st is not too steep of a price. From the bottom of the 1st to #6 ...
Quote: Using the old value chart, #6 (1,600) for #31 (600), #34 (560), #61 (292) and #93 (128) is about right (1580 vs 1600).
Not sure any corner is worth giving up 4 top-100 picks for, though.
There's no question I'd take that deal if I'm the Browns. I'd also accept taking their 2014 2nd in lieu of #61.
I wouldn't. There'd need to be a 2014 1st rounder in there. They can keep the #61. and #93. Again, as a baseline in 2011.
Browns got #27, #59, #123 in 2011; unknown first rounder and fourth in 2012. Falcons got #7.
Considering 49ers are coming from 4 spots further back than ATL and a pick one spot earlier than Cleveland's in 2011, there has to be at least SF first-rounder next year. Granted, the second round pick compensation would be better than that in 2011, I'd eliminate the third and fourth rounders you suggested.
#6 for #31, #34, and unknown first rounder (probably a late-rounder). Honestly, I'm not sure that is fair enough compensation. I also don't go strictly off Johnson's point value scale more so similar, most recent trade transactions. JMO.
Remember, this is a late 1st, an early 2nd, a late 2nd, and a late 3rd compared to the ATL deal which was a late 1st, a late 2nd, a late 4th, and the next-year picks.
Posted by Michael David Smith April 23, 2013, 2:19 PM EDT
Whether there are legitimate concerns about Dee Milliner’s ability to stay healthy or whether it’s all part of a smear campaign, the health of the former Alabama cornerback is one of the major topics of conversation in the final days before the NFL draft.
So with everyone buzzing about Milliner’s medical status, Adam Schefter of ESPN offers this note: Milliner has undergone a total of five surgeries: a right knee scope, a repair of a sports hernia, a procedure for a right tibia stress fracture and one surgery on each shoulder.
Milliner is still rehabbing after his most recent shoulder surgery, and he might not be ready for the start of training camp. So it’s easy to see why there are medical questions about him.
But it’s also important to remember this: In his three seasons at Alabama, Milliner missed exactly one game, and in that game (a blowout win over Western Kentucky), coach Nick Saban said Milliner had a minor hip injury and could have played if the team needed him. So while Milliner’s medical history may raise a few eyebrows, his football history says he can get on the field when his team needs him.
Quote: Using the old value chart, #6 (1,600) for #31 (600), #34 (560), #61 (292) and #93 (128) is about right (1580 vs 1600).
Not sure any corner is worth giving up 4 top-100 picks for, though.
There's no question I'd take that deal if I'm the Browns. I'd also accept taking their 2014 2nd in lieu of #61.
I wouldn't. There'd need to be a 2014 1st rounder in there. They can keep the #61. and #93. Again, as a baseline in 2011.
Browns got #27, #59, #123 in 2011; unknown first rounder and fourth in 2012. Falcons got #7.
Considering 49ers are coming from 4 spots further back than ATL and a pick one spot earlier than Cleveland's in 2011, there has to be at least SF first-rounder next year. Granted, the second round pick compensation would be better than that in 2011, I'd eliminate the third and fourth rounders you suggested.
#6 for #31, #34, and unknown first rounder (probably a late-rounder). Honestly, I'm not sure that is fair enough compensation. I also don't go strictly off Johnson's point value scale more so similar, most recent trade transactions. JMO.
I think that for SF to move up to #6 from #31, it would require their #34 (from KC) their #1 next year and the #2 (acquired from KC) or their own #2 (which would be higher than KCs #3) in the event that the conditions weren't meant to move the pick that KC gave up next year from the 3rd to the 2nd round in 2014.
That's what I think SF would have to give up to move up that far. I don't think they'd be willing to move up that far for someone that would probably be there in the middle of the round. As a Browns fan, I would love it but I wouldn't expect it.
I wouldn't be upset with the Browns having two 1st and two 2nd rounders next year.
Quote: Remember, this is a late 1st, an early 2nd, a late 2nd, and a late 3rd compared to the ATL deal which was a late 1st, a late 2nd, a late 4th, and the next-year picks.
A more-equivalent deal would be
31, 61, 128, 2014 1st, 2014 4th
Perhaps that's another consideration. For me, the barrier of entry to even enter into conversations about a move that far is a first rounder next year. From there, their 2013 first round pick and second rounders enter into the conversation. Maybe it's that late second-rounder you mentioned plus others, but the deal begins and ends with the 2014 first round pick.
It's a further move up than in 2011 for one slot higher. If San Fran fell in love with someone that high, I'd make sure they pay for it. That's essentially a top 5 draft pick.
If we played with the draft value chart on my recommendation, it's tough to gauge what the 2014 first rounder would be, but it's safe to say in would be near where they are now....So,
#6= 1600
FOR
#31, #34= 1160 + 2014 first rounder (Avg. score of 25-32) = 650
So, 1600 vs 1810. Is the difference of 210 "points" essentially the 74th pick gonna stop you for pulling the trigger on a player to take you over the proverbial hump? Because if you want to move up that far, I think that is the reason why. So is the juice worth the squeeze?
As a point of reference, the Falcons ended that trade in 2011 giving up 1855 "value points" vs one pick value at 1500. Atlanta likes Julio Jones. I'd think they'd say the juice was worth the squeeze particularly with a franchise QB.
I like the draft chart and I think its a valuable tool. But like any market, supply and demand sets the tone. Last year, big demand for RG3, only one supplier (Rams).
Seems like there will only be a few teams with mild interest in trading up, and that depends on the board (Milliner and Left Tackle). Plus, it seems like 1/2 of the top 15 are willing to trade out. It appears we've got a supply of trade-down candidates and very little demand.
Banner is going to look at that chart, and probably have to choose between staying at #6 and accepting a trade with poor value.
Quote: Banner is going to look at that chart, and probably have to choose between staying at #6 and accepting a trade with poor value.
It could possibly end up that way, but there may be very high demand at 6 if one of the really good OTs is left when we pick. Much like the Rams being the only team last year, Cleveland may be that possible supplier to some teams this year. Now the price obviously won't be as high but for a few teams looking/needing an LT- Dolphins, Chargers, and maybe others, if only one remains (projecting Lane Johnson to be there) there could be a chance to move down and gain a decent trade.
The wild card here is the Chargers. Their line was pretty bad and could stay put and still pick up a guard if necessary, like Womack, Cooper and still consider it a win. Who knows, they could like Fluker as well. If Miami gambles on that notion, there may not be much movement at all.
It will all come down to the movement of the left tackles in the early part if the Browns really want to move down a few slots. If there gone or trades happen before them, I expect them to stay put. Like the aforementioned SF trade talks, I don't expect that to take place.
Just remember the value chart is just a boundary of value so that teams would know over paying or under paying.
Usually the team who wants picks n don't like any players might under sell the value to get what they want. Usually the team who are targeting one specific player n don't value picks in Quantity as much as quality. Will over pay a bit. Us for KW2...Trent...heck always us...lol I laugh cause I don't cry...well Redskins for RG3.
49ers want a specific talent they are targeting I expect a little more than the Value Chart.
JMHO
Oh n usually a 2014 1st rounder is valued at 1000 points of course one can ASSume more or less value due to teams projections as noted not a rule just a rough guideline established by Jimmy Johnson
Quote: And if by some unfortunate turn, 2 of the 3 LTs are still there, we lose trade leverage and have one less defender to choose from. Yikes!
Not much... SD and NO both need a LT, and I bet NO would give up a future 1st along with #15. AZ is taking the other one. If Miami doesn't complete this Albert trade, then they're another option, but I think they will trade.
One reason there has been so much debate about draft prospect Dee Milliner is that the former Alabama cornerback has undergone five surgeries, though some not as major as others, per league sources.
Milliner's surgeries include a right knee scope, sports hernia, right tibia stress fracture and both shoulders.
His most recent shoulder surgery, performed in March, will sideline him during the organized team activities of whichever team drafts him.
Milliner is not expected to be ready until training camp at the earliest.
"We haven't been able to do the rehab like I want to because I've been going to different teams," Milliner told the Philadelphia Inquirer. "But once the draft is over, I'll be able to start to rehab it and try to get back on track."
49ers want a specific talent they are targeting I expect a little more than the Value Chart.
Really rare for a team to trade-up without a specific target. Its pretty much a given that you want a specific guy and that the trade won't happen unless he is on the board when the trade partner is on the clock. I'm thinking "the chart" has that built-in, and assumes the trade is initiated from the trade-up/targeting team especially if its a huge jump.
I agree with what you said about the team trying to trade-out. If you make it clear that you want no one and start begging for partners, you'll get poor value. Banner has talked with all NFL teams, so they've got the framework. Its up to him to use smoke-and-mirrors and hope that phone rings! I definitely don't see a "haul" like Heckert got us 2 years ago. Wish it was there, but I don't think anyone is being that aggressive this year.
Quote: "We haven't been able to do the rehab like I want to because I've been going to different teams," Milliner told the Philadelphia Inquirer. "But once the draft is over, I'll be able to start to rehab it and try to get back on track."
Wow. Rehab isn't something you do on your own schedule. Exactly what did he have done? With most surgeries , rehab should start ASAP to prevent strictures, adhesions and scar tissue from forming and to regain full ROM.
Quote: "We haven't been able to do the rehab like I want to because I've been going to different teams," Milliner told the Philadelphia Inquirer. "But once the draft is over, I'll be able to start to rehab it and try to get back on track."
Wow. Rehab isn't something you do on your own schedule. Exactly what did he have done? With most surgeries , rehab should start ASAP to prevent strictures, adhesions and scar tissue from forming and to regain full ROM.
Hopefully, not hanging out with Quentin Groves....
Watching Dee Millner on NFL AM and the only thing I keep thinking is I bet he knows everything about shrimp He sounds just like Bubba from Forest Gump seriously.
Quote: Watching Dee Millner on NFL AM and the only thing I keep thinking is I bet he knows everything about shrimp He sounds just like Bubba from Forest Gump seriously.
That was the first thing I thought too... I can see him on his knees scubbing the floor with his toothbrush now....
Quote: "We haven't been able to do the rehab like I want to because I've been going to different teams," Milliner told the Philadelphia Inquirer. "But once the draft is over, I'll be able to start to rehab it and try to get back on track."
Wow. Rehab isn't something you do on your own schedule. Exactly what did he have done? With most surgeries , rehab should start ASAP to prevent strictures, adhesions and scar tissue from forming and to regain full ROM.
Hopefully, not hanging out with Quentin Groves....
Quote: Watching Dee Millner on NFL AM and the only thing I keep thinking is I bet he knows everything about shrimp He sounds just like Bubba from Forest Gump seriously.
That makes sense. I would be fine with Jordan/Ansah/Jones/Mingo. All of them will make the secondary better because the QB will have less time to throw. If that is what happens tomorrow I would be ok with that.
I laugh cause I don't cry...well Redskins for RG3.
He sounds just like Bubba from Forest Gump seriously.
