Steelers and Colts Trade - DawgTalkers.net

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Pittsburg missed the playoffs last year and I don't see where they got drastically better. I think Cincy will win the division and Baltimore will grab the wild card. I don't see 3 teams from our division making the playoffs again. We shall see but it might be almost a full round swing when it's all said and done.

If you have a franchise QB, you're almost always a contender. Pittsburgh has that with the possibility of increasing his protection with DeCastro and Adams. Not too mention they're getting Troy back and replaced Harrison with Jarvis Jones.

This isn't a sure recipe for the playoffs but everyone always says Pitt is on the downside....and how do they normally respond?

This is the first time they've given away a future pick since the 1970s....there is something they must like about this player and we gave it to them on a silver platter. I don't like that one bit.

Jones has injury question marks, Decastro only played 4 games last year, Adams looked horrible and Big Ben has been getting banged up the last few years with his playing style of taking unnecessary hits. We shall see what happens this year.

jc...

It looks like the Browns draft team was outmaneuvered by the Seahawks in the 5th round and once the Seahawks picked the guy our brain trust was counting on getting, Banner and Lombardi had no backup pick/plan, so they punted, preferring to wait till next year.

When it happened the first time, in the 4th round, I didn't know what to think...maybe there is bigger deal going down and this strange move is part of it...but there was no deal brewing that could explain trading away our 4th and 5th round picks..un freaking real...I've never seen anything like it.

It was bizarre to say the least..never seen a team that was building via the draft, not try to build through the draft.

Are the Browns so talented that we didn't need all our draft picks in 2013?...

Maybe there wasn't enough talent left on the board in the 4th round and 5th rounds?

NFL Draft: Browns trade 5th round pick to Colts for 4th rounder in 2014

April 27, 2013 by Ryan Jones

The Browns have traded away a pick for the second time in the 2013 draft, sending their 2013 5th rounder to Indianapolis in exchange for the Colts’ 4th round pick in 2013. The Browns now have traded out of the 2013 draft twice in favor of adding a higher valued pick in 2014. Cleveland also tradrf their 4th round selection for Pittsburgh’s 3rd rounder next year.

This is frustrating for Browns fans who see lots of holes on the team’s roster and want them filled immediately.Through five rounds Cleveland has only added three players, the two selections of Barkevious Mingo and Leon McFadden, and Davone Bess through a trade with Miami.

Seattle traded up two picks ahead of Cleveland at 139 to give them both picks 137 and 138, selecting DT Jesse Williams out of Alabama and CB Tharold Simon out of LSU. Simon, a teammate of Browns’ first round selection Barkevious Mingo at LSU was thought to be a possible target of Cleveland who despite drafting Leon McFadden in the 3rd round is still weak at cornerback.

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Welcome to the board! Nice first post. Some thought and reasoning was involved.

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Excellent moves....You dont draft media names...you draft players

more pick for next year...did anyone notice what SF 49ers did with multiple picks....

We need to keep aquiring picks & do allit moving up next year in both 1st & 2nd round.

I agree. I think this shows that Banner and Co have a plan. They assume they will be hear next year so they are building a contender.

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It looks like the Browns draft team was outmaneuvered by the Seahawks in the 5th round and once the Seahawks picked the guy our brain trust was counting on getting, Banner and Lombardi had no backup pick/plan, so they punted, preferring to wait till next year.

I didn't see any article about that. Did that actually take place or did you just decide it was the case? Just wondering

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Wow.

I actually think those two moves were outstanding. We are moving up a round w/both picks. Additionally, this was one of the weakest draft classes I have ever witnessed. Even the best players had question marks.

Solid moves by the Browns.

Vers, we are not moving up one round, we are lucky if we move up half a round.

Well, we drafted a starting CB on the 3rd round, so I don't think our FO though the draft was weak. Actually most of the drafts look the same after the 4th round, its just a question of having an eye for talent and being prepared, which I think we weren't.

The trades are so completely STUPID that I'm really puzzled, honestly...

I have to disagree, the Browns traded away a 4th and 5th this year to gain a 3rd and 4th next year. How nice will it be to have two 3rd and two 4th next year?

I think these were great moves, so the Browns missed out on some depth players this year while gaining and extra starter next year.

Lets say next year the Browns like a player that is just out of reach of drafting, they now have the fire power to move up and get him and still have day two picks.

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Furthermore, who did you expect to get in the 4th or 5th rounds that would be better than a 3rd and 4th next year? The Colts drafted some dude named Montori Hughes out of Tennessee-Martin. If the Browns had drafted that guy, are you telling me you would not have immediately traded him for a 4th round draft pick in next year's draft? Are you really that high on Montori Hughes?

The same could be said of the safety from Syracuse that the Steelers drafted. As pessimistic Browns fans, we call him the "heir apparent to Polamalu." Of course. I, however, see a 4th round safety from Syracuse whom I would have traded for a 3rd round pick any day of the week.

The 4th and 5th rounds are crap shoots. This is where we get the Martin Ruckers, Owen Marecics, Kaluka Maiavas, and Ryan Millers of the world. I would love to unload any of those guys for a 3rd round draft pick.

I'm assuming your questions aren't rhetorical.

Montori Hughes is a baller. He can play any position in an odd front. He will start for Indy this year. That's not just me that thinks this, Mayock said at the combine he could be a second rounder.

As far as the fourth round pick, I'm not as high on Shamarko as more people, but when you have the NCAA reigning interceptions leader at a position you have no starter for, how do you not take Phillip thomas? Marcus lattimore and Quinton Patton were available as well.

That's where you get maiava, Marecic, and miller if you suck at drafting.

I like the trades. No guarantee the Steelers or Colts will be playoff teams in 2013. In fact, my hunch is that both will miss the playoffs. Colts having the better shot at making them.

I will take the additional third rounder and fourth rounder every time.

It will be nice having those extra 3rd and 4th picks. There is no question about that. Particularly the third...it is very valuable. But we take a huge risk accepting that while giving the Steelers a player they obviously liked. Let's hope it flops for them...We will make out like bandits.

I also believe there is a chance the coaching staff and FO aren't fully sure about the current depth on this team and allowing some players more time in this new system (on offense and defense) allows them to make more informed decisions for 2014. Punting, while improving, some draft picks into the future may allow a couple more roster spot for second, possibly third year guys they're on the fence about. Let's be real, this team isn't expected to make the playoffs and this additional time will make all parties in the organization feel better about future moves after having the chance to evaluate current talent already on the roster.

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I also believe there is a chance the coaching staff and FO aren't fully sure about the current depth on this team and allowing some players more time in this new system (on offense and defense) allows them to make more informed decisions for 2014. Punting, while improving, some draft picks into the future may allow a couple more roster spot for second, possibly third year guys they're on the fence about. Let's be real, this team isn't expected to make the playoffs and this additional time will make all parties in the organization feel better about future moves after having the chance to evaluate current talent already on the roster.

Exactly. They get to evaluate the guys they have within their system. They can see who will fit, and who will not.

The one area, specifically, that we lacked on this team, was OLB/pass rushers for the 3-4. Man did we address that in spades. We added Kruger, Groves, Mingo, and Bryant. We also improved the DL with the Bryant signing. Frankly, I love our front 7.

We have so many young, inexperienced players scattered throughout the roster that it really doesn't make a lot of sense to throw more young, inexperienced players of similar skills/talent on to the same pile. We need to find out what we have as opposed to just adding to the pile. If the team didn't see players available in the 4th/5th rounds who were a sure improvement over what they have, then why spend draft picks just to use them? I love the trades for future (higher) picks)

For all of the fear and trepidation over what this regime would do .... I am pretty happy with what they have done. Now it just has to translate to the field.

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It looks like the Browns draft team was outmaneuvered by the Seahawks in the 5th round and once the Seahawks picked the guy our brain trust was counting on getting, Banner and Lombardi had no backup pick/plan, so they punted, preferring to wait till next year.

I didn't see any article about that. Did that actually take place or did you just decide it was the case? Just wondering

Daman...so it's just me being too hard on Banner and Lombardi, right ???

Trade with Steelers tops one of Browns' strangest draft days

By Steve Doerschuk
CantonRep.com staff writer

BEREA — Joe Banner is a plucky little cuss.

He boldly went where no Browns personnel man has gone before (at least not since 1968).

“I prefer to trade within the division,” the Browns’ CEO said after a strange closing day of the NFL draft. “You don’t make a trade if you don’t think you’re winning it. If you win a trade within your division, you’re obviously better off than winning a trade within another division.”

Such a tricky 2013 draft.

It occasioned the first Browns-Steelers trade since the year Richard Nixon edged Hubert Humphrey in a presidential election — the year Rob Chudzinski was born.

It was the first time Pittsburgh traded a future draft pick since the year Nixon resigned during his second term.

But then, it was the first time the Browns have conducted a draft under an owner who recently sold his share in the Steelers and is swimming in a federal investigation.

Unpredictability was predictable from a Browns draft room staffed by five men who were all someplace else at draft time last year.

Who knew “unpredictable” would translate to:

• Just two new players within the first 174 picks.

• A safety (Jamoris Slaughter, No. 175) who blew out an Achilles in September.

• A linebacker (Armonty Bryant, Round 7) busted for selling marijuana in October.

• That Pittsburgh trade.

With owner Jimmy Haslam’s on-premises approval, Banner opted to further test the patience of fans who already have suffered through five years of 23-57.

They, in consort with general manager Michael Lombardi, assistant GM Ray Horton and head coach Chudzinski, got through three days opting not to:

• Move down in Round 1 and replenish a lost Round 2 pick.

• Pick at No. 111 (Round 4), instead trading the pick to, yes, Pittsburgh, in exchange for the Steelers’ Round 3 pick in 2014.

• Pick at No. 139 (Round 5), taking a 2014 Round 4 pick from the Colts.

That left linebacker Barkevious Mingo at No. 6 and cornerback Leon McFadden at No. 68 as the team’s only picks until No. 175.

Analyst Mike Mayock, who worked with Lombardi at NFL Network, took a shot at reading the collective mind of the Browns’ brass as to deferring picks to next year.

“We’re kind of building with a three- to five-year plan here,” Mayock said.

That’s a miserable thought for Browns fans who have lived through five years in which the record was 4-12 or 5-11.

“Listen,” Banner said, “we’re not asking for a free pass for this year. We expect to improve. We expect it to be conspicuous.

“We’re not gonna reach all of our goals or fill all our needs this year, but I think we’ll be exciting and I think we’ll position ourselves well to become very good and sustain it.”

Chudzinski absorbed that thought from a perch beside Banner in the Browns’ fieldhouse, then said:

“Our goal is to win and it always will be. We’ll approach it from that standpoint.”

Elsewhere on the “opted not to” front, the Browns didn’t draft a quarterback. Neither, though, did they name Brandon Weeden the starter.

Chudzinski deflected the direct question: Is Weeden the starter?

“We feel good about the group we have,” he said. “How that all plays out, we’ll see in time. I’m excited about Brandon and the progress he’s made thus far. I’m also pleased with Jason in the role he’s taken.”

He stopped short of explaining that role.

As to weaving through the draft without picks in Round 2, 4 and 5, Banner said it was all part of the grand scheme. Friday trade pick-up Davone Bess is better than a draft pick in important ways, he suggested. Another wideout, Josh Gordon, stands a good chance to be worth the second-round pick it cost to get him.

And, as Banner said at the top, that deal wasn’t made to help Pittsburgh. It was made to beat Pittsburgh.

Something in the tough little cuss’s bearing was very convincing. At the very least, Banner seemed convinced.

Reach Steve at 330-580-8347 or steve.doerschuk@cantonrep.com

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It's like Banner said mac, and even though it was Banner who said it, it is still true, you don't make ANY deal unless you think you're getting the better end of the bargain. So, if you do get the better of the deal you've just made your team stronger and your division opponent weaker. One can hardly fault the logic in that.

Of course, it's left to be seen who got the better end of the deal.

There really is something to be said for what Banner said about trading within the division. He's right. You want to win on all trades ...... so why not win against one of your primary rivals?

Obviously, the risk is that you wind up with a "double loss" .... but I like the confident approach. Let's stop running from the Steelers. Let's start beating them.

If we trade away all our picks..

How will people complain about who we picked?

Ya, I like this +1

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If we trade away all our picks..

How will people complain about who we picked?

Why are people on this board always going over the top and saying things that are just not close to being true?!!!!

Come on man... all our picks

It seems like some on here dont need an excuse to complain

I know my previos explanation about future pick value was apparently fairly confusing (defunct Browns' message board), but I will attempt to explain it here.

Year over year, there is a 1/2 round deduction in overall value (you're trading away a year of development and the coaches/GM's would prefer their guys now).

Hence the last pick in the 1st round would be worth about pick 48 this year, et cetera.

Unfortunately, without the use of a crystal ball there is no way to know how next year's draft is going to pan out. The only thing you can do is devide the league into groups of three; those likely to pick high, the mid ground teams, and those likely to make the playoffs.

With that in mind, you can decifer likely value of future picks.

As such, the following is my opinion of the value of the two trades.

Trade 1: Cleveland's 14th (?) pick in the 4th round for the Steelers 2014 3rd round pick.
-Overall Value: B+
Why: The 14th pick in a draft is worth approximately the 29th or 30th pick of the previous round in the next year's draft.
If the Steelers make the AFC Championship game or better, they get the value nod here. However those odds are probably less than 20% (between making the playoffs in a division with Baltimore and Cincy, their loses/age and having to ikely win two playoof games).

It may be tempting to complain about trading with a rival, but it's still a good move (and I really wanted Phillip Thomas here). B+

The 6th pick in round 5 for the colts 4th (2014):
Overall Value: C-
Why: The 6th pick in a draft is worth approximately the 21st or 22nd pick of the previous round in the next year's draft.
If the Colts make the Playoffs or better, they likely get the value nod here. Those odds are probably about or better than 50% (Between being in a division with the Jaquars and Andrew Luck entering year 2). Heck they picked 24th (?) this year with a rookie QB and a coach in the hospital for half the season. In addtion, unlike the Steeler trade, this is a day 3 pick for a day three pick next year.

I cannot give this trade higher than a ho-hum C-.

Does any of that make sense?

Again, it's not just me questioning the draft ability of the Browns dynamic duo...here is another read.

First a couple comments about the previous article I posted ...

....have you ever heard a CEO of the other 31 NFL franchises, say they prefer to trade "within their division" ?...Banner actually said "that".

...I'm sure the Steelers appreciate Banner's help as they got themselves a pretty good safety prospect (who runs a 4.44 and did 28 reps on the bench) with the Browns #111 pick ...Shamarko Thomas was the #4 ranked SS...in exchange, the Browns will pick up a few draft slots in 2014 with the Steelers 3rd round pick.

...what is odd, I thought safety was one of the positions the Browns needed to fill in this draft. Shamarko Thomas was the best available SS and the Browns could have drafted him instead of helping out our division rival, giving the Steelers our #111 pick.

...trying to figure this move our after the Steelers took a Thomas, my thought was, maybe the Safety position is not a priority for the Browns.

Next, the Browns trade away their 5 rounder to the Colts for their 4th rounder next year...I won't comment on that now.

....then with the Browns (#7 pick) in the 6th round, Banner and Lombardi, TAKE A SAFETY...a SS out of ND who is recuperating from a ruptured achilles, suffered in the 3rd game of last season. If we needed a SS in round 6...we sure as hell needed the SS the Steelers took with our #111 pick...why help the Steelers and hurt ourselves at the same time?

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Browns trade away most of third day

April 28, 2013
By MIKE McLAIN - Tribune Chronicle

BEREA - In the rush to put a grade on the Cleveland Browns' 2013 draft class, a common mistake would be to use a letter from 'A' to 'F.'

Too many strange happenings took place during the three-day process to give a normal grade. That's why this draft group needs an 'I' for incomplete.

Mike Lombardi's first draft as general manager proved to be one of the most unique in years. The Browns traded out of the fourth and fifth rounds with no return this year. Instead, they'll get a third-round pick (for the fourth-rounder) next year and a fourth-round choice (for the fifth-rounder) next year.

The deal for the fourth-round pick was with the rival Pittsburgh Steelers, who used the choice on Syracuse hard-hitting safety Shamarko Thomas. If Thomas sacks quarterback Brandon Weeden at all next season, you can expect to hear groans from a fan base that is undoubtedly scratching its head today.

Wait, there's more. Each of the Browns' three day-three choices has issues. Safety Jamoris Slaughter of Notre Dame (sixth round) is recovering from a torn Achilles' tendon. Hybrid defensive end and seventh-round pick Armonty Bryant of East Central (Okla.) was arrested for twice trying to sell marijuana to an undercover cop on school grounds. Chadron State offensive tackle Garrett Gilkey, another seventh-round choice, had minor heart surgery prior to his freshman year of high school and missed time early in the 2011 college season recovering from a ruptured appendix.

Obviously there's a plan involved, but as of today it looks as shaky as owner James Haslam's marketing tactics. CEO Joe Banner views the plan in the wide scope of the future.

"We viewed (receiver Davone) Bess as part of the draft and it gave us the opportunity to trade back a few spots and acquire him and keep the same number of picks and then trade them for future picks," Banner said.

Bess was acquired in a day two deal with the Miami Dolphins. The teams swapped fourth-and fifth-round choices, with the Browns moving down several spots in both rounds.

Bess adds veteran depth at an area of need. He has 321 career receptions for 3,447 yards and 12 touchdowns since joining the NFL in 2008.

The trade with the Steelers opened eyes for obvious reasons. Most teams take the philosophy of rarely trading with a team within its division. Banner follows an opposite approach, pointing out that the Philadelphia Eagles traded aging quarterback Donovan McNabb to the division rival Washington Redskins when he worked in Philadelphia.

"I prefer to trade within the division because you don't make a trade you don't think you're winning," Banner said. "Sometimes that can burn you. We try to make the best deal. It doesn't matter who it's with."

Banner revealed that the Browns had multiple offers for their fourth-round pick that were similar to the deal they made with the Steelers.

The Browns ended the draft adding six players. They had six choices prior to the draft (relinquishing a second-round choice for receiver Josh Gordon in a supplemental draft last June), but they gained fifth and seventh-round picks in the trade that sent quarterback Colt McCoy to the San Francisco 49ers.

Making trades for future picks won't sit well with the fan base. While admitting all the holes on the roster can't be filled this offseason, Banner said that the Browns haven't written off the 2013 season.

"We're not asking for any free passes for this year," Banner said. "We expect to improve and we expect it to be conspicuous. When we look at the players and coaches we've brought in, we're not saying we don't expect to be better. We're not going to reach all our goals this year."

The only drafted player that has a solid shot at starting is LSU outside linebacker Barkevious Mingo, the sixth overall pick. Cornerback Leon McFadden of San Diego State has a legitimate chance to start in what will be a battle with Buster Skrine and free-agent addition Chris Owens.

Coach Rob Chudzinski agrees with Banner that no one is writing off wins next season.

"Our goal is to win and always will be," Chudzinski said. "We'll approach it from that standpoint. I want us to progress on a daily basis. That's always your focus as a coach."

Grading this draft in April of 2013 probably isn't the wisest of choices.

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With an open mind, ask your self: "'Would the picks traded away have helped the Browns this year more than the extra picks next year will help them."?

I can't answer that. But I do highly doubt that the picks traded away this year will not be seen, come draft time next year, as positives.

Look, even with those picks, we aren't going to the superbowl, or playoffs.

With an open mind this is the wrost draft in our history. The funny thing for Lomabardi is it not his worst draft ever. The best pick was made by the guys they fired and they are trying to take credit for. Along with saying I perfer to trade within the division. He thinks he got the best of the Stoolers. These guys make Butch Davis look draft gensius. LOL.... Our only hope is the FBI... Do Feds Go.... Clap clap clap.... Go Feds GO...... Clap Clap Clap

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With an open mind, ask your self: "'Would the picks traded away have helped the Browns this year more than the extra picks next year will help them."?

I can't answer that. But I do highly doubt that the picks traded away this year will not be seen, come draft time next year, as positives.

Look, even with those picks, we aren't going to the superbowl, or playoffs.

I'm probably not the guy to ask that since Phillip Thomas was still there in the 4th (though that was clearly the better value of the two trades).

As far as the 5th round trade, that is the only argument that is keeping the tattered remnants of my sanity together.

Wow I cannot believe how many complainers there are...just amazing.

Point ONE n a Big BUTT point it is.

This was one of the weakest draft classes maybe seen in two Decades??? WEAK!!!

Boo hoo we traded a 4th for a Steelers 3rd. We are doomed really...a weak ass 4th round draft class for a much stronger 2014 3rd round pick??? Really.

Boo Hoo we passed on a GREAT SS of course if we took him the same guys would be saying...WHAT WHY ARE WE TAKING A SS when we got Ward...which would have been much football educated than the whine n lack of differentiating from our possible FS need compared with pretty MUCH ZERO Need for a SS. We passed on nothing.

Steelers have not faired that well over the last few drafts why they got a problem - In years past when they let go of a Harrison they had a stud waiting...where n when is he now?

OL didn't get a shot as the weak class had all the good OL n even 2nd round OL go quick.

2014 is suppose to be a stronger draft class so we are talking Player n talent wise I don't care if it is the SAME pick 2013 to 2014 we will have a better choice of talent...and it is far from SAME PICK...cause you got to add all the Compensation picks at the end of the 3rd.

Same with the 5th for the Colts 4th...who might have a bit tougher schedule this year than last!

Do I know our guys are going to be studs? Funny how some of you know a 4th round pick for the Steelers are going to be a stud. You do realize Palo n he play the same position. Palo going to FS cause of the beatings he takes...btw Loved Sanders where is he know? He took a beating.

I see us having very good players on this team from 2010,11 n 12 27 were on our Roster mostly from those 3 years. We added 5 key players who should all stick unless the DE/OLB Man among boys prospect falls in the cracks due to drugs!

McFadden I see as an excellent Cover Corner...hope he can play the run well. But he was in a Throw first Conference. He can press n play back also saw a lot of good diguise in his coverages as well! But we get Boo Hoo we could have had Honey Badger...pfft. Has a great support system w/Peterson - I hope he makes it. Meanwhile he is what 5'8" ours is 5' 10" and all I here is our guys is too short...lol

love the way that happens.

I've been accused of being a Homer in the past. Well you guys on the other side of the spectrum are so so unrealistic compared to my praises. At least I state - WHO KNOWS.

We did a good job overall. In a weak draft class we came away with: 3rd n 4thd round picks for 2014. Davon Bess a starting slot WR n maybe punt returner. Josh Gordon a #1 WR...n 5 picks who should make our Roster n contribute. The only Pie in the Sky prospect I see is this kid Bryant late round pick from a small school n a dumb arrest.
Risk is MINIMAL but the UPSIDE is Great. The words from some Scouts...real scouts not Pretend scouts were Ware like. Hey he'll be great or out of football in 3 years.

I think we made very key moves from 2012 to 2013 adding to our First Ever drafted Foundation of 27 players.

JMHO

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Hello all....

I signed up just to join this thread. I thought these trades were excellent moves and i'm pretty disappointed by the abject negativity. It seems to be negativity just for negativity's sake...

That was a very well thought out first overall post, impressive. Probably because I agree with just about everything you said.

I disliked the moves also considering the holes we still have on the team. However in the long run it makes sense. We added a handful of free agents and still have a lot of young guys. If this team goes 5-11 again next year we'll have the extra draft picks to move up to any spot in the draft we need to that ensures we get the Quarterback we want.

Or if we go 8-8 and keep Weeden, we'll be able to use those extra picks next year on luxury picks, which we never get to do. We need to sign a veteran free safety and corner to come in and help us out for this season though.

It was a smart move for next years draft.

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With an open mind this is the wrost draft in our history. The funny thing for Lomabardi is it not his worst draft ever. The best pick was made by the guys they fired and they are trying to take credit for. Along with saying I perfer to trade within the division. He thinks he got the best of the Stoolers. These guys make Butch Davis look draft gensius. LOL.... Our only hope is the FBI... Do Feds Go.... Clap clap clap.... Go Feds GO...... Clap Clap Clap

I wish the Official board had never shut down.

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With an open mind, ask your self: "'Would the picks traded away have helped the Browns this year more than the extra picks next year will help them."?

I can't answer that. But I do highly doubt that the picks traded away this year will not be seen, come draft time next year, as positives.

Look, even with those picks, we aren't going to the superbowl, or playoffs.

Damit Arch after some of out debates i really hate to agree with you...but this is my feelings on things..Hell i got no problems with our draft of course i'll be doing more deer hunting this yr...need the meat when your on ss...

You tell 'em EO. I like the fact that Banner had similar offers from teams outside our division but chose to trade with the steelers to weaken them next year. I like the trades and the first looks at our later round picks. EO check out Garret Gilkey on youtube.

GO BROWNS!

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This was one of the weakest draft classes maybe seen in two Decades??? WEAK!!!

EO...so there wasn't anyone in this draft worthy of the Browns #4 draft pick?...

Obviously Banner thought the Browns needed a SS...he drafted one in the 6th round.

Obviously the Banner thought we need help at OG...he drafted one...in the 7th round.

If the Browns needed a SS in the 6th round, they sure as hell needed one in the 4th or 5th round...maybe a better prospect than they drafted at the end of the draft, you think?

If the Browns needed a OG in the 7th round, they sure needed one in the 4th or 5th rounds...mabe a better prospect than they drafted at the end of the draft.

Concerning TJ Ward being a SS and the Browns not needing one...we drafted a SS out of ND.

Concerning TJ Ward being a SS and the Browns not needing one...guess what, the Steelers made the same mistake when they drafted SS Shamarko Thomas, with the Browns #111 pick...Troy Polomalu is a Strong Safety too...why would the Steelers draft Shamarko Thomas, another SS?

...just so happens, if you read Thomas' scouting reports, it talks about his versatility, speed and toughness. I'm sure the Steelers see him as nothing less than depth at both FS and SS...he is that good of an athlete.

But no, we didn't need someone like Thomas on the team this year...maybe next year...

It definitely shows a lack of urgency by the Browns new front office, willing to bypass upgrading the team this year...waiting on next year.

Mac, you are so far off base it isn't even funny anymore.

This front office has done a great job to this point, yet you and a few of the other trolls continue to pout and moan at everything they do.

I for one am tired of it.

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This was one of the weakest draft classes maybe seen in two Decades??? WEAK!!!

EO...so there wasn't anyone in this draft worthy of the Browns #4 draft pick?...

Obviously Banner thought the Browns needed a SS...he drafted one in the 6th round.

Obviously the Banner thought we need help at OG...he drafted one...in the 7th round.

If the Browns needed a SS in the 6th round, they sure as hell needed one in the 4th or 5th round...maybe a better prospect than they drafted at the end of the draft, you think?

Value, n. :: a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged

Obviously the VALUE wasn't there in the 4th/5th. It was in the 6th/7th.

It's a simple concept, really. One I find hard to believe so many of you can't grasp.

peen and the rest...so you think it's just me being too critical on Haslam, Banner and Lombardi???

HERE...

NFL Draft grades: Report card time for all 32 teams

Published Saturday, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:46 pm EDT Last updated 4 hours and 28 minutes ago

They say it takes three years to grade a draft class. That's good in theory, but the NFL is a "win now" league, where quick turnarounds are possible with one good draft—see the 2012 Colts or the 2011 Bengals. That can lead to unreasonable expectations for coaches and general managers, where three years is an eternity to see results from players.

Plus, what's the fun in waiting that long to see how your team did, both in terms of the talent it got and the needs it filled? This year, well before those 254 players drafted in '13 play a down, here's a look at how we think every team graded out during the league's ultimate crash course in personnel:

Grade: A
Pittsburgh Steelers: It's as if they had a checklist for their four biggest needs, and knew the right players to fill all of them. Georgia edge-rushing outside linebacker Jarvis Jones? Check. Michigan State power back Le'Veon Bell? Check. Oregon State speed receiver Markus Wheaton? Check. Syracuse high-energy safety Shamarko Thomas? Check. With nine picks in all they could also load up on depth later, including Oklahoma quarterback Landry Jones to develop behind Ben Roethlisberger.

Philadelphia Eagles: Top to bottom, Chip Kelly had a great first NFL Draft—using his college knowledge, especially from the Pac-12, to the Eagles' advantage. Offensively, Oklahoma left tackle Lane Johnson and Stanford tight end Zach Ertz are ideal athletes for what he wants to do, and he ended up just needing a fourth-rounder to bring USC's Matt Barkley into his quarterback competition. Defensively, with Philadelphia transitioning to a 3-4, it got the key elements of a nose tackle (LSU's Bennie Logan), edge rusher (Utah's Joe Kruger) and a starting-caliber corner (Oregon State's Jordan Poyer) in Round 7.

MORE: Complete draft board | Trade tracker

Green Bay Packers: The highlight of another good Ted Thompson haul was doubling up on running backs with Alabama's Eddie Lacy and UCLA's Johnathan Franklin. After their recent injury mess at the position, the powerful fresh legs the Packers now have sets them up for a much stronger committee approach. They also nailed the first round with UCLA defensive end Datone Jones, a versatile player ready to be a productive pass rusher in their 3-4. Then they went for two offensive tackles—Colorado's David Bakhtiari and Cornell's J.C. Tretter—who will end up helping on their line somewhere.

San Francisco 49ers: They didn't waste their final tally of 11 picks. It was highlighted by replacing key veterans (LSU safety Eric Reid for Dashon Goldson, Rice tight end Vance McDonald for Delanie Walker) and stockpiling speedy pass rushers (Florida State's Tank Carradine, Auburn's Corey Lemonier). Because of the volume, they added another receiver to help Colin Kaepernick (Louisiana Tech's Quinton Patton) and stash the ideal if-healthy successor to Frank Gore (South Carolina's Marcus Lattimore).

Jacksonville Jaguars: New GM David Caldwell aced his first test. The Jaguars have the luxury to put Texas A&M athletic first-rounder Luke Joeckel at right tackle. They shored up their secondary with a much-needed cleanup safety (Florida International's Jonathan Cyprien) and strong all-around cover corner (Connecticut's Dwayne Gratz) to start right away. For an offense and special teams short on playmakers, that quotient was raised by South Carolina's Ace Sanders and Michigan's Denard Robinson back to back. Caldwell also was smart not to reach for a quarterback when the value was never quite there, and got an intriguing undrafted free agent in Arizona's Matt Scott.

Grade: A-
Cincinnati Bengals: Welcome to the Jungle, where the Bengals have buried their bungling, and done it with offense. See Notre Dame mismatch-creating tight end Tyler Eifert and North Carolina speed back Giovani Bernard. Andy Dalton and A.J. Green got it going in '11, and Mohamed Sanu and Marvin Jones were good follow-ups in '12. Eifert and Bernard are great options for Dalton to further break out of his Green dependency. They also made their defensive strength stronger, as SMU's 6-8 Estonian end Margus Hunt fits right in with their pass rush. Georgia's Shawn Williams fills free safety.

Minnesota Vikings: The thing about their three first-rounders taken in the 20s—Florida defensive tackle Sharrif Floyd, Florida State cornerback Xavier Rhodes and Tennessee wide receiver Cordarrelle Patterson—is that they all were considered top-dozen picks at some point. Floyd fits as a run stopper in their 4-3 to a tee, and likewise, Rhodes' size and zone coverage ability works just as well on the back end for Leslie Frazier. After having no scary outside threats last season, the Vikings go to a Patterson-Greg Jennings combination. They've come out aggressive to boost their playoff status.

Arizona Cardinals: Their most-talked about pick was LSU cornerback Tyrann Mathieu, who is a wild card on and off the field. But they should get more attention for their sure-fire selections. North Carolina guard Jonathan Cooper fills a huge need for interior blocking help. LSU inside linebacker Kevin Minter brings sound tackling to their 3-4, and Texas end/outside linebacker Alex Okafor gives them more pass-rush pop for it. Stanford running back Stepfan Taylor can be a short-term feature option with Rashard Mendenhall and Ryan Williams trying to shake off injuries. Texas A&M quick slot receiver Ryan Swope is a good late-round flyer.

Houston Texans: They started with a bang to complement two future Hall of Famers, a wide receiver opposite Andre Johnson (Clemson's DeAndre Hopkins) and a hard-hitting strong safety to support Ed Reed (South Carolina's D.J. Swearinger). They also got an option to solidify right tackle (North Carolina's Brennan Williams) opposite Pro Bowler Duane Brown. With Connor Barwin gone, they had to restock their pass-rush quiver behind J.J. Watt, and Wade Phillips' coaching should boost what LSU's Sam Montgomery and Connecticut's Trevardo Williams can do as 3-4 outside linebackers.

MORE: Complete draft board | Trade tracker

Grade: B+
Baltimore Ravens: So much for getting their defense raided in the offseason. They reloaded and recovered well in the draft. Florida safety Matt Elam, Kansas State inside linebacker Arthur Brown and Ohio State outside linebacker John Simon are the right type of players to be respective replacements for free-agent departures Ed Reed, Dannell Ellerbe and Paul Kruger. The Ravens know their schemes, and thanks to general manager Ozzie Newsome, always seem to know the ideal personnel.

Indianapolis Colts: Sporting News executive of the year Ryan Grigson took care of the offensive skill players in '12, starting with Andrew Luck. This April was all about nuts and bolts, led by giving Chuck Pagano a top edge pass rusher (Florida State's Bjoern Werner) and promising nose tackle (Tennessee-Martin's Montori Hughes) made for his 3-4. On the not-as-sexy-but-still-effective front, they gave Luck two solid interior offensive linemen in Illinois guard Hugh Thornton and USC center Khaled Holmes.

Miami Dolphins: They didn't find their left tackle, either, whether drafting him or trading for Kansas City's Branden Albert. But the Dolphins get a break for how much they upgraded their pass defense. Moving up for Oregon defensive end Dion Jordan got them a daunting edge pass rusher to play off Cameron Wake. Speedy Boise State second-round corner Jamar Taylor can make big plays on the ball. Tennessee third-rounder Dallas Thomas can compete to start on the offensive line. Michigan State tight end Dion Sims and Florida running back Mike Gillislee are good complementary skill players.

St. Louis Rams: The Rams added more exciting receiving pop for Sam Bradford with the West Virginia duo of Tavon Austin and Stedman Bailey, who are built to remain fine complementary playmakers on St. Louis’ fast indoor track. Jeff Fisher also got a speedy linebacker who can cover (Georgia's Alec Ogletree) and the slobberknocking safety (USC's T.J. McDonald) he covets. Alabama guard/center Barrett Jones was quite a steal in Round 4, but Vanderbilt running back Zac Stacy can be a bigger one in Round 5.

Grade: B
New York Giants: With GM Jerry Reese, the Giants tend to draft for beyond the current year, but they ended up with three strong, athletic linemen who can make an immediate impact. Offensively, Syracuse first-rounder Justin Pugh is too smooth not to win a job at guard or tackle in '13. Defensively, they got a needed run-stuffing tackle (Ohio State's Johnathan Hankins) and pass-rushing end to help replace Osi Umenyiora (Texas A&M's Damontre Moore). Also watch out for Richmond's Cooper Taylor, a big linebacker-like safety with the speed to develop into a big playmaker.

San Diego Chargers: The Chargers hit on their desperation for an offensive tackle with Alabama's D.J. Fluker in the first round, but their next two picks, Notre Dame linebacker Manti Te'o and California wide receiver Keenan Allen, are good fits with what they want to do in the Mike McCoy era. Playing next to rangy, big playmaker Donald Butler in their 3-4, there's less pressure on Te'o, who can focus on his strength as an instinctual upfield tackler. Some of what Allen will do should remind offensive coordinator Ken Whisenhunt of his best Cardinals wideouts.

New Orleans Saints: The Saints got their key components for Rob Ryan's new 3-4 defense, a terrific all-around safety with good blitzing pop (Texas' Kenny Vaccaro) and an ideal nose tackle (Georgia's John Jenkins). But this is the Saints, so we look to their offensive steals. They should feel good about turning athletic Arkansas-Pine Bluff Terron Armstead into a rock of a left tackle given their small-school history with linemen (see Jahri Evans, Jermon Bushrod). Oklahoma wide receiver Kenny Stills has the skills to thrive with Drew Brees, too.

Atlanta Falcons: The Falcons went in looking for more pass defense, and wasted no time in replacing Brent Grimes and Dunta Robinson at cornerback with Washington's Desmond Trufant and Southeastern Louisiana's Robert Alford with their first two picks. They also added a couple more options at end, Clemson's Malliciah Goodman and TCU's Stansly Maponga. With Tony Gonzalez coming back for one more season, they found an underrated Pac-12 tight end to groom behind him, Stanford's Levine Toilolo.

Detroit Lions: They weren't in position to get an elite left tackle, but otherwise, Martin Mayhew and Jim Schwartz hit on important areas. BYU first-rounder Ezekiel Ansah has freakish pass-rush potential, and later, they got more a polished complementary defensive end in South Carolina's Devin Taylor. They didn't forget their offensive line, as Kentucky guard Larry Warford can start to boost their running game. Mississippi State cornerback Darius Slay has the size and speed to start outside in coverage right away, too.

Grade: B-
New England Patriots: For not having a first-rounder, they had a decent haul in the No. 52-102 range. They needed to hit on outside receivers to better stretch the field for Tom Brady, and Marshall's speedy Aaron Dobson and TCU's physical Josh Boyce did the trick. After taking Chandler Jones last year, Bill Belcihick got another talented sack artist in Southern Miss' Jamie Collins. Belichick is in tune with Rutgers, but the Scarlet Knight secondary combination of Logan Ryan and Duron Harmon were reaches.

Carolina Panthers: The Panthers wasted no time in taking care of their greatest hole at defensive tackle, and did it twice. They can plug in Utah's Star Lotulelei and Purdue's Kawann Short as complementary impact players inside to help free up 2012 first-round linebacker Luke Kuechly—the reigning rookie of the year—to have a bigger second season inside. With only three other picks, however, they didn't get the extra receiver they could have used.

Seattle Seahawks: Having already taken care of their major immediate holes in free agency, the Seahawks could just take intriguing projects with all 11 picks, including two running backs, Texas A&M's Christine Michael and LSU's Spencer Ware. Elsewhere offensively, Kansas State's Chris Harper can develop into a good possession receiver. They did come away with needed defensive tackle depth (Penn State's Jordan Hill, Alabama's Jesse Williams).

MORE: Complete draft board | Trade tracker

Grade: C
Dallas Cowboys: They're down here because they didn't get either an offensive tackle or defensive lineman, and didn't get in on the run of top safeties. Wisconsin center Travis Frederick could have been had after Round 1, and although San Diego State tight end Gavin Escobar and Baylor wide receiver Terrance Williams have bright futures, it was a case of the Cowboys adding to what they already had. William and Mary slot corner B.W. Webb may end up helping them most in '13.

Buffalo Bills: The Bills were all about going back to the drawing board with their passing game. The centerpiece is Florida State quarterback EJ Manuel, but coach Doug Marrone and his staff have their work cut out to turn him into a polished, athletic passer. They also will try to get Manuel on the same page with the receivers they took for him, USC possession-type Robert Woods and Texas speedster Marquise Goodwin. Their best pick for the present was on defense, Oregon inside linebacker Kiko Alonso. Offensively, there's a lot of potential but more shaky unknown.

Chicago Bears: The Bears did go after needed offensive line help, but ended up with a couple of projects there, including their first-rounder, Oregon’s Kyle Long. Long, however, might need to start out inside as he's still growing as a tackle. Their fifth-rounder, Louisiana Tech's Jordan Mills, is closer to being able to aid them at the position. Florida second-rounder Jon Bostic, with his tacking ability and upfield instincts, is a textbook replacement for Brian Urlacher. Likewise, Rutgers' Khaseem Greene has the range and coverage skills to fight to replace Nick Roach on the strong side.

Grade: C-
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: The Buccaneers didn't have many pressing needs left, and took care of finding their No. 2 corner with Mississippi State second-rounder Johnthan Banks. Other than that, it was ho-hum between getting NC State's Mike Glennon to be a backup quarterback and Miami's Mike James to be a backup running back with a mix of questionable defensive linemen in between.

Kansas City Chiefs: They couldn't miss on can't-miss Central Michigan left tackle Eric Fisher first overall, but otherwise, what Andy Reid and John Dorsey did was underwhelming. Overrated Arkansas running back Knile Davis was a wasted third-rounder. It wasn't exactly a "worst to playoffs" weekend for the Chiefs.

Denver Broncos: They started with a bang, North Carolina defensive tackle Sylvester Williams, but the rest of their haul included plenty of reaches. Wisconsin's Montee Ball is a good runner, but he wasn't worthy of a second-rounder based on what they had. They also threw darts at South Florida cornerback Kavyon Webster and Western Kentucky defensive end Quanterus Smith. It's good they can win a Super Bowl with their established veteran core.

Oakland Raiders: So much for going after defensive line help for Dennis Allen after clearing the decks at end and tackle. That's a big knock, but the blow is softened by two talented cover men for their back seven, Houston cornerback D.J. Hayden and Connecticut outside linebacker Sio Moore. Then, in old Raiders fashion, they took a chance on a boom-or-bust raw athletic left tackle (Florida State's Menelik Watson) and a once high-rated QB (Arkansas' Tyler Wilson).

Tennessee Titans: Let's start with the good. The Titans kept up their interior offensive line upgrade theme, adding Alabama guard Chance Warmack and California center Brian Scwhenke to join free-agent addition Andy Levitre. But getting wide receiver Justin Hunter from Tennessee is a boom-bust proposition, and both Connecticut cornerback Blidi Wreh-Wilson and Missouri linebacker Zaviar Gooden need more polish to be impact players.

Grade: D
New York Jets: Their entire draft will ride on just how good West Virgnia's Geno Smith will be as their starting quarterback, and there's reason to believe the pairing will be quite bumpy. In essence, they swapped out Darrelle Revis for Alabama's Dee Milliner at cornerback, but wasted the No. 13 they got for Revis by taking Sheldon Richardson, a tackle better suited for the 4-3, not Rex Ryan's 3-4. It was a shaky start for John Idzik.

Washington Redskins: The Redskins knew this might happen after trading for Robert Griffin III—a weak class with no first-rounder. NC State's David Amerson is a huge coverage risk in Round 2, Florida tight end Jordan Reed had a big lack of production for Round 3. They'll hang it all on Fresno State's Phillip Thomas becoming a starting free safety for them.

Cleveland Browns: For a young team with multiple issues, it's odd the Browns worked their way down to just five picks. LSU first-rounder Barkevious Mingo is a high-risk, high-reward edge pass rusher for their 3-4. They needed a corner for the outside, yet took one, San Diego State's Leon McFadden, better suited for the slot. The biggest head-scratcher was the fact Cleveland officials, not all in on Brandon Weeden, didn't at least take a chance on one of the quarterback prospects after most of them slid.

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at grading drafts one day after the draft is over.

And I can post up A grades......big deal.

I like exactly where we are, and think Banner and crew did a fine job.

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...I'm sure the Steelers appreciate Banner's help as they got themselves a pretty good safety prospect (who runs a 4.44 and did 28 reps on the bench) with the Browns #111 pick ...Shamarko Thomas was the #4 ranked SS...in exchange, the Browns will pick up a few draft slots in 2014 with the Steelers 3rd round pick.

...what is odd, I thought safety was one of the positions the Browns needed to fill in this draft. Shamarko Thomas was the best available SS and the Browns could have drafted him instead of helping out our division rival, giving the Steelers our #111 pick.

...trying to figure this move our after the Steelers took a Thomas, my thought was, maybe the Safety position is not a priority for the Browns.

Next, the Browns trade away their 5 rounder to the Colts for their 4th rounder next year...I won't comment on that now.

....then with the Browns (#7 pick) in the 6th round, Banner and Lombardi, TAKE A SAFETY...a SS out of ND who is recuperating from a ruptured achilles, suffered in the 3rd game of last season. If we needed a SS in round 6...we sure as hell needed the SS the Steelers took with our #111 pick...why help the Steelers and hurt ourselves at the same time?

Free safety and strong safety aren't the same position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_%28American_and_Canadian_football_position%29

We have a starting SS in Ward. It's not a glaring need.

We needed a FS, which is the position we think Slaughter will play in the NFL if he gets the chance and progresses.

Thomas doesn't really translate as a FS in the NFL. Were we to draft him, he'd either sit behind or replace Ward, and we'd still have nothing at the FS position.

Yeah, but still.

jc

I loved these trades. This is the first time in a long time I had real confidence that there were smart and methodical people in charge of the Browns. Yeah you have to wait a year and you can go through all kinds of different scenarios but picking somewhere between 65-96 is better than picking 111. Sometimes it really is that simple.

Instead of just looking at only 2013, or only 2013 and 2014, try looking at the big picture... or at least 4-5 years.

My first take away from that is that I have no idea who the author is and if he is even qualified to wash a pro football teams jockstraps let alone grade a draft. Funny that he gave the Browns a D because we essentially traded a mid fourth and fifth for Devone Bess ,a third and a fourth round pick.

What is it that he is so high on Detroit for selecting a nine game starter( for BYU) in Ansah yet is down on the Browns for selecting Mingo.

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Mac, you are so far off base it isn't even funny anymore.

This front office has done a great job to this point, yet you and a few of the other trolls continue to pout and moan at everything they do.

I for one am tired of it.

Sorry but the truth is they haven't done anything to make this team better.

backup QB - worse.
TE - worse.
OL - no change
WR - no change
DL - over paided for an average DL - no change
LB - Kruger seems good. Mingo - good
DB - worse.
K - worse
KR - worse

so besides 2 linebackers over-all we are no better then last year. I assume we go 2 and 14 and pick first over-all. At best we win 4 games

Man, where is the crybaby smiley when you need one.

Draft grades are generally all over the place. Hell, Fox Sports alone gave us a B, a C-, and a B+.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/201...;photo=31720567

CBS Sports (Prisco) gave us a C.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/22160...-like-em-or-not

Rang gave us a C.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/blog/rob-rang/22153257/2013-nfl-draft-afc-north-grades

What does it all mean? Nothing, other than one particular sportswriter's opinion. Every year there is a draft that is panned, that turns out OK, and another team's draft that they rave about, that winds up with a bust headliner.

I disagree Norm.

Colt sucked. Campbell is way better. Weeden is becasuse he beat out the Coltmeister.

You might be Mac.... but a troll for sure..

Go away.

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DL - over paided for an average DL

Ladies and gentlemen, the 43rd President of the United States, Mr. George W. Bush.

Mr. President, did Condi Rice turn you onto the Browns?

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Mac, you are so far off base it isn't even funny anymore.

This front office has done a great job to this point, yet you and a few of the other trolls continue to pout and moan at everything they do.

I for one am tired of it.

Sorry but the truth is they haven't done anything to make this team better.

backup QB - worse.
TE - worse.
OL - no change
WR - no change
DL - over paided for an average DL - no change
LB - Kruger seems good. Mingo - good
DB - worse.
K - worse
KR - worse

so besides 2 linebackers over-all we are no better then last year. I assume we go 2 and 14 and pick first over-all. At best we win 4 games

OK , seriously .......

Backup QB is much better having a QB like Campbell, who fits the offense, and has a better track record than our former backup.

TE: Who knows? Watson was a concussion waiting to happen last year. He had 3 of them last year alone. That's kind of scary. Other than that, we dropped Smith ..... and that was no major loss.

WR: We dropped Cribbs and Massaquoi. We added Nelson and Bess. This should be an upgrade on the receivers end of things. Cribbs has yet to sign anywhere. I think this is an upgrade. You see it as no change? Why? We added a receiver with 321 catches in 5 seasons, and another who had 61 catches 2 years ago, and had 31 last year while battling an injury. Given that these 2 players played in Miami and Buffalo, hardly bastions of exceptional QB play, makes their accomplishments even more impressive AFAIC.

DL: Bryant, average? Wow, you are losing credibility with this statement. Bryant will be a very good 3-4 DE for us. There is nothing average there. What do you see about him that you consider "average"?

DB: We dumped Young, and let Brown walk. Who else did we lose? We added Barnes, Owens, and drafted Slaughter. How is this worse? Please explain. I'm really curious.

K: Well, this is probably a downgrade. OK, you get this one.

KR: Who knows? Cribbs was great at one time, but he has been slowing down. Again, he has yet to be signed by anyone. Who knows if he will be?

We are switching to a new offense and defense. The offense should better suit the talent we have, and we have upgraded our front 7 in a big way. How, exactly, will we be worse?

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backup QB - worse.
TE - worse.
OL - no change
WR - no change
DL - over paided for an average DL - no change
LB - Kruger seems good. Mingo - good
DB - worse.
K - worse
KR - worse

Seriously? Must be a big McCoy fan.

Backup QB-Push

RB's- better (Dion Lewis gives Ob a run for 3rd down back)

WR- WAY Better! Not only is it an extra year for the young guys, I'd take Nelson over MoMass and smile. Throw in Bess as possibly the best slot guy we've had and this group becomes our best WR core in 14 years (14 very long years)

TE- Worse- No denying.

O-line- a slight plus from depth alone, though ultimately a push.

D-Line- Push. Seriously? Des Bryant for Frostee Rucker? Yes, please. But Sheard may now be out of position...push

Linebacker- ROFLMAO! Not even close. B-E-T-T-E-R. Even if Sheard doesn't work out here, I'd still take Groves and Mingo (and Bryant) over...an injured Gocong and a retired Fujita??

D-Backs- A bit better! We gained McFadden, Owens and possibly Barnes in the dime. We lost Sheldon Brown?? Osama Young was already outplayed by Tashaun Gibson, so for safety the addition of Slaughter was (though possibly a slight lose) closer to a push.

K- Worse! No sane man would argue that.

Returner- Worse, but only on kickoffs. Cribbs has been on the decline for the last couple seasons and I was anticipating Benjamin taking alot more punts this season regardless.

Sooo...

Clear improvement for LB's and WR's. A slight improvement for RB's and DB's. A push at O-line (only depth), D-line, and QB. And a lose at TE and special teams.

Does that honestly sound like a "downgrade" to you?

So, you are saying all the teams that picked on the 4th and 5th rounds have a wrong concept of value? That the Colts and Steelers both excellent drafters have it wrong and we have it right?

Regarding the question of this year draft being weak, I think the consensus was regarding the top of the draft, not the bottom. Actually if you take a look at draft grades this year, past the 2nd round they are similar to other years.

Its also a very bold claim, saying we cannot find a player worth of a 4th or 5th round pick this year. No valid prospects, no players with potential... Tyler Wilson, Webb, Khaseem, Patton, the FB from Harvard, Jesse Williams, Randle, etc etc etc

One year its very important on developmental picks, I'm sure if any would pan out they would be much more valuable then the picks next year.

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I disagree Norm.

Colt sucked. Campbell is way better. Weeden is becasuse he beat out the Coltmeister.

You might be Mac.... but a troll for sure..

Go away.

Whatever Campbell sucks as best. He should have been out of the League except for the Oakland Raiders and now us... LOL. What a joke. So your pumped we got Campbell. LOL...

Our Only Hope is the FBI......

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So, you are saying all the teams that picked on the 4th and 5th rounds have a wrong concept of value? That the Colts and Steelers both excellent drafters have it wrong and we have it right?

I'm not saying it was right or wrong. I'm simply saying that our guys didn't feel the value was there.

Now, in 4-5 years, if the guys we passed over become All-Pros, we were wrong.

If in 4-5 years the guys we passed over still aren't contributing and the guys we pick up in next years 3rd/4th are, then we had it right.

I don't know the answer, neither do you, neither does anyone else.

The panic about not drafting a guy in the 4th and 5th rounds on this board is just ridiculous.

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I disagree Norm.

Colt sucked. Campbell is way better. Weeden is becasuse he beat out the Coltmeister.

You might be Mac.... but a troll for sure..

Go away.

Whatever Campbell sucks as best. He should have been out of the League except for the Oakland Raiders and now us... LOL. What a joke. So your pumped we got Campbell. LOL...

Our Only Hope is the FBI......

Is Kendall Storm back??

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backup QB - worse.
TE - worse.
OL - no change
WR - no change
DL - over paided for an average DL - no change
LB - Kruger seems good. Mingo - good
DB - worse.
K - worse
KR - worse

Seriously? Must be a big McCoy fan.

Backup QB-Push

RB's- better (Dion Lewis gives Ob a run for 3rd down back)

WR- WAY Better! Not only is it an extra year for the young guys, I'd take Nelson over MoMass and smile. Throw in Bess as possibly the best slot guy we've had and this group becomes our best WR core in 14 years (14 very long years)

TE- Worse- No denying.

O-line- a slight plus from depth alone, though ultimately a push.

D-Line- Push. Seriously? Des Bryant for Frostee Rucker? Yes, please. But Sheard may now be out of position...push

Linebacker- ROFLMAO! Not even close. B-E-T-T-E-R. Even if Sheard doesn't work out here, I'd still take Groves and Mingo (and Bryant) over...an injured Gocong and a retired Fujita??

D-Backs- A bit better! We gained McFadden, Owens and possibly Barnes in the dime. We lost Sheldon Brown?? Osama Young was already outplayed by Tashaun Gibson, so for safety the addition of Slaughter was (though possibly a slight lose) closer to a push.

K- Worse! No sane man would argue that.

Returner- Worse, but only on kickoffs. Cribbs has been on the decline for the last couple seasons and I was anticipating Benjamin taking alot more punts this season regardless.

Sooo...

Clear improvement for LB's and WR's. A slight improvement for RB's and DB's. A push at O-line (only depth), D-line, and QB. And a lose at TE and special teams.

Does that honestly sound like a "downgrade" to you?

Yes, Honestly we are not a better Football Team today then we where at the end of last season...except for Mingo and Kruger... All others are a push at best if not worse... The only change we have to improve is from within from the players we have.

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Yes, Honestly we are not a better Football Team today then we where at the end of last season...except for Mingo and Kruger...

So your current argument is that if you take away our biggest free-agent signing and our first round draft pick...

It would be great if you guys don't quote his posts. If you quote them I end up reading them.

Jason Campbell career stats :

60.9% completion percentage. 190.67 yards per game. 76 TD's, 52 INT's (0.99TD and 0.68INT per game). 6.73 yards per attempt. 82.5 QB Rating.

Colt McCoy stats -

58.3% completion percentage. 182.83 yards per game. 21 TD's, 20 INT's (0.85 TD and 0.83 INT per game). 6.25 yards per attempt. 74.8 Quarterback Rating.

Just saying.

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Yes, Honestly we are not a better Football Team today then we where at the end of last season...except for Mingo and Kruger...

So your current argument is that if you take away our biggest free-agent signing and our first round draft pick...

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This is the first time the Steelers have given away a future pick since the 1970s....there is something they must like about this player and we gave it to them on a silver platter. I don't like that one bit.

Gee, another agenda post from memphis.

We fleeced the Steelers and you turn it around and make another ridiculous bash against the FO. Meanwhile, you never once criticized the previous regime. This was the worst draft class I have ever seen. Heck, even the top picks have question marks. I can't even remember the name of the first overall pick. A guy like Ansah goes top five. Jordon goes top five. Mingo top 10. I can't even remember most of the top picks. It was a putrid draft. We move out of the fourth and fifth rounds and move up a round in next years draft, which will be stronger. We screw the Squeelers and you complain!?!? GMAB!

Psssttttttt----I have a secret I will share w/you and mac. Heckert and Holmgren are gone and are not coming back.

I dont know vers. I liked Holmgren and Heckert and I also liked the idea of trading for an upgrade for next year. I dont like trading anything with the Steelers. I did absolutely love Banner's answer but I am still having a tough time swallowing the trade.

Banner's answer was basically that we saw an opportunity to screw a division rivalry and we took it.

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I dont know vers. I liked Holmgren and Heckert and I also liked the idea of trading for an upgrade for next year. I dont like trading anything with the Steelers. I did absolutely love Banner's answer but I am still having a tough time swallowing the trade.

Banner's answer was basically that we saw an opportunity to screw a division rivalry and we took it.

So, what is the big deal?

I like it myself.

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This is the first time the Steelers have given away a future pick since the 1970s....there is something they must like about this player and we gave it to them on a silver platter. I don't like that one bit.

Gee, another agenda post from memphis.

We fleeced the Steelers and you turn it around and make another ridiculous bash against the FO. Meanwhile, you never once criticized the previous regime. This was the worst draft class I have ever seen. Heck, even the top picks have question marks. I can't even remember the name of the first overall pick. A guy like Ansah goes top five. Jordon goes top five. Mingo top 10. I can't even remember most of the top picks. It was a putrid draft. We move out of the fourth and fifth rounds and move up a round in next years draft, which will be stronger. We screw the Squeelers and you complain!?!? GMAB!

Psssttttttt----I have a secret I will share w/you and mac. Heckert and Holmgren are gone and are not coming back.

Memphis Frankenstein

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This is the first time the Steelers have given away a future pick since the 1970s....there is something they must like about this player and we gave it to them on a silver platter. I don't like that one bit.

Gee, another agenda post from memphis.

We fleeced the Steelers and you turn it around and make another ridiculous bash against the FO. Meanwhile, you never once criticized the previous regime. This was the worst draft class I have ever seen. Heck, even the top picks have question marks. I can't even remember the name of the first overall pick. A guy like Ansah goes top five. Jordon goes top five. Mingo top 10. I can't even remember most of the top picks. It was a putrid draft. We move out of the fourth and fifth rounds and move up a round in next years draft, which will be stronger. We screw the Squeelers and you complain!?!? GMAB!

Psssttttttt----I have a secret I will share w/you and mac. Heckert and Holmgren are gone and are not coming back.

An agenda post? What the hell are you talking about? So, I don't like the fact we traded within the division to a rival....that's an agenda?

So many posters claim you have the agenda (which is rather accurate) and just because someone questions a trade "partner" (not the trade itself), you gotta try and pass that title on to someone else...nice try.

And naturally, you bring this all back to a previous regime WHICH NO ONE WAS TALKING ABOUT...and you say I'm the one with an agenda?

I can't stop laughing.

That's okay, Mourg. I understand YOUR trepidation. You are a fair poster w/a good grasp of talent.

It could backfire. Both guys that were taken this year could end up being great players and we could draft two duds or use them to move up and draft another loser qb.

Nothing is set in stone, bro. I just think all things being equal, we got the better end of the deal.

Let me put it to you this way: Can you imagine how much COMPLAINING some of these posters would have done if we traded a higher pick in next year's draft for a lower pick in this year's weak draft?

Get my drift? Most of these guys were going to complain regardless. They would have been going through the roof if Pittsburgh would have done to us what we did to them.

You can post all the gramlins you want, but your facade is not very convincing.

Bottom line: we got over on the Squeelers and you are still complaining.

Btw: did you say one negative word about giving up picks for TRich last year even though there was NO WAY IN THE FREAKING WORLD that Minni was taking him?

Let me answer it for you. NO, you did not.

You keep working hard at what you do. This isn't the other board and you BS doesn't fly as well here.

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You can post all the gramlins you want, but your facade is not very convincing.

Bottom line: we got over on the Squeelers and you are still complaining.

Btw: did you say one negative word about giving up picks for TRich last year even though there was NO WAY IN THE FREAKING WORLD that Minni was taking him?

Let me answer it for you. NO, you did not.

You keep working hard at what you do. This isn't the other board and you BS doesn't fly as well here.

Why do you always say there was no way Minnesota was going to take him?...of course they weren't. Everyone knows that, champ. It was because other teams wanted to jump up and grab him over Cleveland, which their GM Speilman confirmed in a press conference. People have corrected this line of thinking for you over and over again.

I don't hate the trades in theory. I'm perfectly fine with the Indy trade and I'd be fine with the other trade if it wasn't the Steelers. And don't say we screwed them because we don't know what is going to happen- either with Thomas or who we get next year. Sorry, if a poster is weary about giving a pick to a rival....it's not like that's backfired on us before.

This was a fresh comment : "You keep working hard at what you do. This isn't the other board and you BS doesn't fly as well here." as of a week ago you were complaining about how bad this board is because no one wanted to respond to you and talk football. Don't worry, now that you've "brought out the guns", I'm sure that will change.....

Once again, you lump one thing that is concerning to a poster and turn it into a "he must hate everything about this draft and regime" You do this far to often and it's laughable. I loved the Mingo pick. I'm not sure about McFadden as I don't know much on him. I like the Indy trade, weary on the other trade because it goes to a rival...and the other picks are all flyers...Yeah, this must mean I hate everything about the draft. Give me a break.

But no, Vers, YOU keep working hard at what you do and people will soon realize, if they haven't already, who's peddling the real agendas around here.

In the press conference this question was asked about trading intra-division and Banner said he never makes a trade he doesn't think he's winning. He mentioned the Donovan McNabb trade where they got picks and he, didn't say it outloud, thought they were getting a crap QB, which turned out to be true.

Has anyone thought the Browns knew exactly who the Steelers were going to trade up for and had that player low on their own board. Thought the player had some character flaw or was an injury risk...etc. Maybe the Browns were comfortably trading with the Steelers because the player they were selecting won't be any good in the eyes of the Browns.

Only time will tell but if I could get a 3rd round pick and have the steelers pick a crap prospect I would do it, wouldn't you?

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Wow I cannot believe how many complainers there are...just amazing.

Point ONE n a Big BUTT point it is.

This was one of the weakest draft classes maybe seen in two Decades??? WEAK!!!

Boo hoo we traded a 4th for a Steelers 3rd. We are doomed really...a weak ass 4th round draft class for a much stronger 2014 3rd round pick??? Really.

Boo Hoo we passed on a GREAT SS of course if we took him the same guys would be saying...WHAT WHY ARE WE TAKING A SS when we got Ward...which would have been much football educated than the whine n lack of differentiating from our possible FS need compared with pretty MUCH ZERO Need for a SS. We passed on nothing.

Steelers have not faired that well over the last few drafts why they got a problem - In years past when they let go of a Harrison they had a stud waiting...where n when is he now?

OL didn't get a shot as the weak class had all the good OL n even 2nd round OL go quick.

2014 is suppose to be a stronger draft class so we are talking Player n talent wise I don't care if it is the SAME pick 2013 to 2014 we will have a better choice of talent...and it is far from SAME PICK...cause you got to add all the Compensation picks at the end of the 3rd.

Same with the 5th for the Colts 4th...who might have a bit tougher schedule this year than last!

Do I know our guys are going to be studs? Funny how some of you know a 4th round pick for the Steelers are going to be a stud. You do realize Palo n he play the same position. Palo going to FS cause of the beatings he takes...btw Loved Sanders where is he know? He took a beating.

I see us having very good players on this team from 2010,11 n 12 27 were on our Roster mostly from those 3 years. We added 5 key players who should all stick unless the DE/OLB Man among boys prospect falls in the cracks due to drugs!

McFadden I see as an excellent Cover Corner...hope he can play the run well. But he was in a Throw first Conference. He can press n play back also saw a lot of good diguise in his coverages as well! But we get Boo Hoo we could have had Honey Badger...pfft. Has a great support system w/Peterson - I hope he makes it. Meanwhile he is what 5'8" ours is 5' 10" and all I here is our guys is too short...lol love the way that happens.

I've been accused of being a Homer in the past. Well you guys on the other side of the spectrum are so so unrealistic compared to my praises. At least I state - WHO KNOWS.

We did a good job overall. In a weak draft class we came away with: 3rd n 4thd round picks for 2014. Davon Bess a starting slot WR n maybe punt returner. Josh Gordon a #1 WR...n 5 picks who should make our Roster n contribute. The only Pie in the Sky prospect I see is this kid Bryant late round pick from a small school n a dumb arrest.
Risk is MINIMAL but the UPSIDE is Great. The words from some Scouts...real scouts not Pretend scouts were Ware like. Hey he'll be great or out of football in 3 years.

I think we made very key moves from 2012 to 2013 adding to our First Ever drafted Foundation of 27 players.

JMHO

The truely funny thing is you think over-all they did a good job. This was a terrible draft at best. The basisly got one player in Mingo and very little else help. The corner is a slot corner but will have to start and teams will throw and throw and throw at him all day long. We got no help at safety. I can go on and on but the basis fact is Banner and Lombardi just lack the ability to do the jobs they are hired to do. And I first like Truck Stop Boy but after he hired Banner then Lombardi you could see is going from bad to worse.

Just look at the character issues we have aquired this off-season.
Bryant - drunk
Bryant - the drug dealer
Groves - the john
Haslam - the fraud

Plus adding non quality players in
K. Davis
Barnidge
Campbell
Graham
Lewis

Bad draft Picks in
Bryant
Slaughter
McFadden

But the good news is hopefully in 3 years we get a new owner...

Is English his second language?

I thought it would be interesting to look at some of the "experts" opinions from a couple of years ago.

Prisco thought that the Broncos made a huge mistake passing on Darius for Von Miller.

He also thought that the Texans should not have taken JJ Watt with such a pressing need at CB.

I don't think that either team would trade their guy away at this point.

He also hated the Packers pick of Clay Matthews.

He also loved the Jags trading up to pick Gabbert, while panning the Panthers for taking Newton with Claussen already on board. He also thought that Ponder was the best QB in the draft. Further ...... he said, and I quote ..... regarding the Niners ......... "Questionable move: Passing on Blaine Gabbert and then trading up to get Colin Kaepernick. They will now be linked together in 49ers draft history."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/story...-earn-top-marks

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Banner's answer was basically that we saw an opportunity to screw a division rivalry and we took it.

Haslam TOLD him to do it. lmao.

Way 2 be Jimmy!!!

Mac. Mac. Mac. Shaking head at Mac.

Having only 5 picks is call for an immediate "C" from the get-go when you look at it like that.

NOW. Look at it like THIS. Which is REALITY.

First round—OLB Barkevious Mingo (6th overall)

Second round—WR Josh Gordon (taken in 2012 NFL Supplemental Draft)

Third round—CB Leon McFadden (68th overall)

Fourth round—WR Davone Bess (traded 104th & 164th in exchange for Dolphins 111th & 217th & Bess)

Fourth & Fifth rounds—Extra third- and fourth-round picks in 2014 for 111 & 139)

Sixth round—S Jamoris Slaughter (175th overall)

Seventh round—DE/OLB Armonty Bryant (217th overall)

Seventh round – OL Garrett Gilkey (227th overall)

That Mr. Negativity is an EXCEPTIONAL DRAFT in ANY YEAR!!

So it's just me being too hard on Banner?

Early returns on Cleveland Browns draft rate it average at best

By Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer
updated April 28, 2013

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- National experts weighed in on the Browns' draft Sunday, and the general consensus was that CEO Joe Banner and General Manager Mike Lombardi were very average in their inaugural selection meeting together here in Cleveland.

Most graders gave the Browns a C, with a couple of highly respected sites -- Sporting News and Sports Illustrated -- dinging them with D's. However, two analysts from Fox Sports liked what the Browns did, one giving them a B and the other a B-plus.

Most of the analysts seemed to like the first-round selection of Barkevious Mingo but some were puzzled by the pick considering the Browns signed pass rushers Paul Kruger and Desmond Bryant in free agency. Many didn't see the wisdom in the Browns surrendering fourth- and fifth-round picks this year for third- and fourth-rounders in 2014.

But third-round pick Leon McFadden, the cornerback out of San Diego State, was a popular choice among the pundits.

A look at the national grades and some of the comments:

Chris Burke, SI.com

Grade: D-plus

Burke described it as "bit of an unusal draft for the Browns, who landed an impact defender in OLB Barkevious Mingo at No. 6 and then picked just once more (CB Leon McFadden) in the next 167 selections." He noted the two selections for 2014 and feels the gamble on Josh Gordon in the supplemental draft paid off. "Strictly in terms of the 2013 draft, though, there's not much to go on here -- slightly disappointing for a team hoping to make big strides," he wrote.

Dane Brugler, CBS Sports

Grade: C

Brugler, who accurately predicted the Browns would select Mingo in his draft day mock, wrote: "I understand the passion to attack the quarterback, but I wonder why the Browns elected to pay for Paul Kruger if they were going to draft Barkevious Mingo at No. 6 overall. Where does that put Jabaal Sheard, who was one of the team's better players a year ago? I love cornerback Leon McFadden's athleticism as well, but he's just 5-10. Frankly, I thought the Browns got their best value in the seventh round with intriguing developmental pass rusher Armonty Bryant and Garrett Gilkey, a developmental offensive lineman who impressed me at the Senior Bowl. Adding picks for the 2014 Draft helps what otherwise I thought was one of the least impressive draft classes."

Mel Kiper, ESPN

Grade: C-plus

Kiper has his doubts about Mingo, which hurt the Browns' grade.

"I don't know if it's a good thing, per se, but the guy who will impact the Browns most in 2013 might not be the player they took at No. 6 overall," he wrote. "At No. 68 overall, they took Leon McFadden, a much-needed CB who knows how to operate on an island. As I look at the depth chart, I don't see a reason why McFadden can't break camp as the starter across from Joe Haden. That's not a small deal because it also maximizes Buster Skrine, who will be able to spend more time in the slot, where he's much better."

Consistent with his pre-draft evaluation, Kiper felt Mingo should've had more than 4.5 sacks last season despite drawing double teams and being asked to contain mobile quarterbacks instead of attack them at times.

He described Mingo as "a player I'm at once infatuated with as a talent, but skeptical of because of what I considered production that didn't match up with his talent. Now, Mingo adds depth at outside linebacker, but he's going to need some developmental work because he played with his hand on the ground at LSU. After that, there isn't a lot here that you'll see in 2013. Jamoris Slaughter could provide depth at safety. The lack of a second-round pick really hurt the Browns, who could have used a higher-rated guard -- though I do think Garrett Gilkey has the chance to start eventually -- and I thought would have been wise to add another inside linebacker. But Josh Gordon is developing and Davone Bess should provide Brandon Weeden with another solid target in the passing game. The hope is Mingo becomes a star, and McFadden can perform early. The good news is, both could happen."

Vinnie Iyer, Sporting News

Grade: D

Iyer was puzzled by a couple of Browns' decisions, including not taking a quarterback and selecting a cornerback whom he feels is more of an inside guy than a starter opposite Joe Haden.

"For a young team with multiple issues, it's odd the Browns worked their way down to just five picks," he wrote. "LSU first-rounder Barkevious Mingo is a high-risk, high-reward edge pass rusher for their 3-4. They needed a corner for the outside, yet took one, San Diego State's Leon McFadden, better suited for the slot. The biggest head-scratcher was the fact Cleveland officials, not all in on Brandon Weeden, didn't at least take a chance on one of the quarterback prospects after most of them slid.

Peter Prisco, CBS Sports

Grade: C

Prisco's favorite pick was McFadden, whom he deemed a bit undersized "but a solid cover corner who fits a need."

He also questioned the Mingo pick.

"They had two outside rushers and had some other bigger needs. He's a good player, but not a great fit."

He granted Notre Dame safety Jamoris Slaughter, who's coming off the torn Achilles tendon, his "third-day gem" status, acknowledging that he's a risk, but worth it if he can bounce back.

"In his first draft as general manager, I just didn't get the wow factor from Mike Lombardi," Prisco wrote. "I like Mingo, but I thought they had other needs. They did add receiver Davone Bess in a trade (with Miami) for very little.

Evan Silva, Yahoo Sports

Grade: C

Silva excluded Gordon from his evaluation, but included Bess. In exchange for Bess, the Browns moved down seven spots in the fourth round and gave Miami a fifth-rounder for a seventh. He did like the idea of stockpiling picks for next season.

"Mingo was the most naturally explosive edge presence in this draft," he wrote. "McFadden may be stretched covering outside receivers in the NFL, but projects as an upgrade on Buster Skrine at nickel back. Bryant has some upside as a small-school project. Slaughter can be a core special teamer if his Achilles' is right. Lombardi's first draft haul underwhelms on paper, but the Browns can capitalize on his forward-minded thinking next year."

Floyd Engel, Fox Sports

Grade: B

Of all the experts, Engel was the most complimentary of Lombardi and his first draft after five years as an NFL Network analyst.

"There is little not to love about what Mike Lombardi did, even the Barkevious Mingo gamble, which is the best part of this draft for them. They have a GM, a real-deal GM."

Alex Marvez, Fox Sports

Grade: C-minus

Marvez wasn't overly impressed with the Browns' "wait 'til next year" strategy in the middle rounds.

"Outside linebacker Mingo provides some bark to Cleveland's Dawg Pound, but the Browns added only one more player (San Diego State cornerback Leon McFadden) before Round Six," he wrote. "On the positive side, they secured extra third- and fourth-round choices in next year's draft through trades and have already started reaping the dividends of using its 2013 second-round pick in last year's supplemental draft on budding wide receiver Josh Gordon."

Peter Schrager, Fox Sports

Grade: B-plus

Schrager gave the Browns a higher grade than anyone else, particularly for parlaying the fourth- and fifth-rounders into third- and fourth-rounders in 2014.

"You can only do so much when you don't have a second-round pick, and I think Cleveland brass is awfully happy with Gordon, essentially their second-round pick," he said. "Mingo will complement Paul Kruger well in Ray Horton's 3-4. This was a productive draft for the long term."

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Those of you who thought this front office was focused on winning now...you are wrong. Obviously there is no sense of urgency to address the team's needs, preferring to write off this year.

The Steelers on the other hand, they want to win now and Banner is doing his best to help them do it. Every other team in our division used every pick they could get to help themselves win in 2013...except the Browns.

None of our division rivals traded away picks in this draft, preferring to wait till next year to address their needs. The quality of talent available in this draft was just fine with the Bengals, Steelers and Ravens as all of them used all their 2013 picks to upgrade their teams now.

Do you really believe the BS that Banner is just that much smarter than Ozzie Newsome, Kevin Colbert or Mike Brown?

While the Browns front office takes a wait till 2014 position, our division rivals just did all they could to address their team needs...to win this year.

jc

I've been back and forth on those two deals: On one hand, I like the idea of having an extra 3rd and 4th in a stronger class. Otoh, I keep hearing that saying "future picks are for future GMs".

Now, in terms of value I think many don't realize this, but it's a WASH. Yes, we DO draft one round higher, BUT we lose 2xone year of developing a mid round player. Then again it could be argued that we have enough young talent to "develop" already on the roster.

I really do not care much with WHOM we've traded, but it was really tough for me to see Shamarko Thomas, one of my fav prospects in this draft class, go to the Steelers with "our" pick. Fair or not, since Banner did not know who the Steelers would pick, but Banner will always be ripped apart when Shamarko makes plays, and trust me...if this little dude stays healthy, he will make his fair shake of them. On tape I saw him as being as good, if not better than Elam, who was picked by the Ravens at the end of the 1st. Hate to see those two in the AFC North. At least the Bengals picked up a dud S with S.Williams

I also thought the "strengths" of his class was in the 3rd to 5th range, so seeing us punt not only one but two of those into next year was a little disappointing to say the least. All 3 of my 5star players (S.Thomas, WR Patton and OL B.Jones) were still available when we traded the pick to the Steelers. Since I value any of those to be well worth a 3rd round selection, I would have rather have them develop in 2013 than hold the Steelers 3rd rounder in 2014.

Then again, it's better to have that pick instead of selecting a bad prospect. Obviously I disagree with the "value" they've given to some of who were left on the board at pick 111. The 5th rounder was the better trade imho, as the talent fom there down to the 7th was pretty equal imho.

The aquistion of Bess also has to be factored into those trades, so it's not like we got absolutely nothing back.

Still, looking at "what could have been", makes me cringe a little bit...imagine what was possible, without much hindsighting:

16 CB Rhodes/TE Eifert
42 FS Swearinger/CB Banks/CB Taylor
68 DE/OLB Moore/CB Wreh-Wilson/G/T D.Thomas
111 S S.Thomas/WR Patton/OL B.Jones
139 RB S.Taylor/QB Bray/RB Randle
175 OL Quessenberry/TE Gragg/RB Ellington
Ok with the 7th, although there were other good options too there

And that draft would have been with Bess in the fold too. Of course this best case sceanrio of mine includes taking the deal we had in the 1st, but this class was very possible

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So it's just me being too hard on Banner?

Just because some talking heads didn't grade our draft highly doesn't add any validity to your opinion. Most of those guys are proven wrong one way are another anyway. Most of them do not follow the Browns closely enough to know what's going on. They're like draftniks who develop their opinions by reading the opinions of others without really checking it out for themselves.

In the article there are those who think trading the 4th and 5th pick was bad and those who think it was good. So which ones are right? The ones who agree with you?

There's one guy who give the Browns a bad mark for drafting McFadden calling him a "slot" CB. He obviously doesn't know much about McFadden at all so is judging him solely on his height, (which is 1-inch shorter than Joe Haden).

Half of the talking heads know nothing about the Browns. Nor do they know much about drafting as they look at it simply "filling needs" with no eye for value or BPA. Those who fill needs, regardless of the player or where he was drafted, get high grades for filling needs.

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None of our division rivals traded away picks in this draft, preferring to wait till next year to address their needs. The quality of talent available in this draft was just fine with the Bengals, Steelers and Ravens as all of them used all their 2013 picks to upgrade their teams now.

None of those three teams are in the situation we are in. The bengals were in the playoffs last season. The Steelers and Rats are desperate to not lose ground. The Steelers have already lost ground and are desperate to stop their skid with no cap money. The Rats were cleaned out and left with no cap money.

None of those three teams are starting with a new regime as are the Browns. So, of course they will approach the draft differently. Each AFC North team has approached the draft from the perspective of where their team is currently. The Browns did the same.

If you take out the "C" grades because those are average, neither good nor bad. Then the article has two guys giving the Browns a "D" and two giving them a "B". That washes to a "C". So all the article did in the end was state the Browns draft as average and in no way is it "being hard on Banner" as you claim they do in backing you up.

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I thought it would be interesting to look at some of the "experts" opinions from a couple of years ago.

Prisco thought that the Broncos made a huge mistake passing on Darius for Von Miller.

He also thought that the Texans should not have taken JJ Watt with such a pressing need at CB.

I don't think that either team would trade their guy away at this point.

He also hated the Packers pick of Clay Matthews.

He also loved the Jags trading up to pick Gabbert, while panning the Panthers for taking Newton with Claussen already on board. He also thought that Ponder was the best QB in the draft. Further ...... he said, and I quote ..... regarding the Niners ......... "Questionable move: Passing on Blaine Gabbert and then trading up to get Colin Kaepernick. They will now be linked together in 49ers draft history."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/story...-earn-top-marks

Proof that to grade a draft you need to wait a few seasons.

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Those of you who thought this front office was focused on winning now...you are wrong

How could anyone be wrong when NOONE has ever even whispered those words?

I can tell you this dude. We didn't sign a young in their prime Kruger and Bryant to watch them get old and be gone when we make a run. These guys will be CORE parts of our winning. Sooner than later.

You need to just STOP trying to analyze Front Offices. You SUCK at it.

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It looks like the Browns draft team was outmaneuvered by the Seahawks in the 5th round and once the Seahawks picked the guy our brain trust was counting on getting, Banner and Lombardi had no backup pick/plan, so they punted, preferring to wait till next year.

I didn't see any article about that. Did that actually take place or did you just decide it was the case? Just wondering

Daman...so it's just me being too hard on Banner and Lombardi, right ???

Trade with Steelers tops one of Browns' strangest draft days

By Steve Doerschuk
CantonRep.com staff writer

BEREA — Joe Banner is a plucky little cuss.

He boldly went where no Browns personnel man has gone before (at least not since 1968).

“I prefer to trade within the division,” the Browns’ CEO said after a strange closing day of the NFL draft. “You don’t make a trade if you don’t think you’re winning it. If you win a trade within your division, you’re obviously better off than winning a trade within another division.”

Such a tricky 2013 draft.

It occasioned the first Browns-Steelers trade since the year Richard Nixon edged Hubert Humphrey in a presidential election — the year Rob Chudzinski was born.

It was the first time Pittsburgh traded a future draft pick since the year Nixon resigned during his second term.

But then, it was the first time the Browns have conducted a draft under an owner who recently sold his share in the Steelers and is swimming in a federal investigation.

Unpredictability was predictable from a Browns draft room staffed by five men who were all someplace else at draft time last year.

Who knew “unpredictable” would translate to:

• Just two new players within the first 174 picks.

• A safety (Jamoris Slaughter, No. 175) who blew out an Achilles in September.

• A linebacker (Armonty Bryant, Round 7) busted for selling marijuana in October.

• That Pittsburgh trade.

With owner Jimmy Haslam’s on-premises approval, Banner opted to further test the patience of fans who already have suffered through five years of 23-57.

They, in consort with general manager Michael Lombardi, assistant GM Ray Horton and head coach Chudzinski, got through three days opting not to:

• Move down in Round 1 and replenish a lost Round 2 pick.

• Pick at No. 111 (Round 4), instead trading the pick to, yes, Pittsburgh, in exchange for the Steelers’ Round 3 pick in 2014.

• Pick at No. 139 (Round 5), taking a 2014 Round 4 pick from the Colts.

That left linebacker Barkevious Mingo at No. 6 and cornerback Leon McFadden at No. 68 as the team’s only picks until No. 175.

Analyst Mike Mayock, who worked with Lombardi at NFL Network, took a shot at reading the collective mind of the Browns’ brass as to deferring picks to next year.

“We’re kind of building with a three- to five-year plan here,” Mayock said.

That’s a miserable thought for Browns fans who have lived through five years in which the record was 4-12 or 5-11.

“Listen,” Banner said, “we’re not asking for a free pass for this year. We expect to improve. We expect it to be conspicuous.

“We’re not gonna reach all of our goals or fill all our needs this year, but I think we’ll be exciting and I think we’ll position ourselves well to become very good and sustain it.”

Chudzinski absorbed that thought from a perch beside Banner in the Browns’ fieldhouse, then said:

“Our goal is to win and it always will be. We’ll approach it from that standpoint.”

Elsewhere on the “opted not to” front, the Browns didn’t draft a quarterback. Neither, though, did they name Brandon Weeden the starter.

Chudzinski deflected the direct question: Is Weeden the starter?

“We feel good about the group we have,” he said. “How that all plays out, we’ll see in time. I’m excited about Brandon and the progress he’s made thus far. I’m also pleased with Jason in the role he’s taken.”

He stopped short of explaining that role.

As to weaving through the draft without picks in Round 2, 4 and 5, Banner said it was all part of the grand scheme. Friday trade pick-up Davone Bess is better than a draft pick in important ways, he suggested. Another wideout, Josh Gordon, stands a good chance to be worth the second-round pick it cost to get him.

And, as Banner said at the top, that deal wasn’t made to help Pittsburgh. It was made to beat Pittsburgh.

Something in the tough little cuss’s bearing was very convincing. At the very least, Banner seemed convinced.

Reach Steve at 330-580-8347 or steve.doerschuk@cantonrep.com

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Why be that way,, I asked a question because I hadn't heard it and I still don't know what the hell your talking about regarding the Seahawks.. The article doesn't say anything about the Seahawks..

So,, is this your MO,, someone asks a perfectly reasonble question, then you throw up an article that has no bearing on the question?

wow

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...OL B.Jones) were still available when we traded the pick ...

Missing on that pick was the most disappointing aspect of our entire draft IMO...

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Why do you always say there was no way Minnesota was going to take him?...of course they weren't. Everyone knows that, champ. It was because other teams wanted to jump up and grab him over Cleveland, which their GM Speilman confirmed in a press conference. People have corrected this line of thinking for you over and over again.

Corrected me?

I already knew that Tampa Bay reportedly wanted to move up. Big deal. Let them. TRich was not worth it. We gave up picks to do move up because we panicked and reacted to what someone else was doing. The smart thing would have been to make the trade w/Tampa Bay ourselves. We could have traded down and received multiple picks in one of the greatest draft classes ever. We could have then taken Doug Martin later, who I kept pimping before the draft as being a better back than TRich.

You freak out over us trading w/the Steelers, but applauded the TRich move last year. No complaints from you regarding Weeden, never mind that even if he does have adequate skills [that is highly debatable right now], he still didn't have the skill set to play in the WCO. Not a freaking peep from you.

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And don't say we screwed them because we don't know what is going to happen- either with Thomas or who we get next year. Sorry, if a poster is weary about giving a pick to a rival....it's not like that's backfired on us before.

LOL.....you don't want me to say we screwed them, but earlier you said we served up their player to them on a silver platter.

You know, Banner has traded w/in the division before. How did the trade of McNabb to Washington work out for the latter? Did Banner serve up McNabb to the Skins on a silver platter?

Perhaps he did, but underneath that silver cover of the main course was not filet mignon, but a huge turd.

I think Banner is a very savvy man. I think he has little-man syndrome [which isn't always a bad thing] and he is going to work his butt off to beat the other guys. I think he will be relentless. I think he is very intelligent. I think he understands the business. I have a lot of faith in the guy. I think this guy doesn't care too much of what the fans initially think because he knows [and said] this----if you win, the fans will be happy. He is building this team for long-term success. And trading mid-round picks in a crappy draft for higher picks in a stronger draft class is not stupid. It's smart!

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He is building this team for long-term success.

I DO believe that! He evidently has the smarts, certainly from a business perspective, to ensure long term sustainability which is what we want to see. Please, no major hills nor valleys.

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...OL B.Jones) were still available when we traded the pick ...

Missing on that pick was the most disappointing aspect of our entire draft IMO...

+1, another Loadholdt move that will haunt us

Hey we need to have eyes wide open on this, we knew Banner was savvy with the business side and he will make the tough decisions visa vi cap and players.

I think he is very intelligent in that aspect... and many of his decisions will have their detractors... but I see a plan emerging and it appears they have the balls to stick to it. Still it was difficult to NOT add players, I undestand the reasoning, it just adds to our frustrattions and wanting a winner so bad.

Time will tell if he can deliver or will be packing up his office.

Mac...Ratsanplan n others entrenched in the Woah is we mentality.

First off Grades...as mentioned they bounce all over the place but I am actually shocked we are getting B's here n there. Cause if you all remember throughout our history whenever we drafted 9+ we always got high grades...teams who traded their picks away unless they were the Pats were always given bad grades - point blank they are grading the picks values n when you take five it adds up to less.

I think its rather funny that every player taken by the Steelers is going to be a starter/All Pro. I think its rather funny to think we picked a SS in the 6th to Replace Ward...lol First off 5th round on is for Special teams...if anything else comes out of it - Bonus points.

4th round came up n we didn't have a prospect on "OUR" board - not McShay's board - worthy of a 4th round pick. You guys think we pick prospects just from a list of Positions...well if this guy is gone we can get x,y or z...no We make a list of INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS We want on our Team!

Again Can you tell me when was the last time two OGs got taken in the top 10? Just guessing...NEVER??? This was a weak draft. 2nd rounders were taken in the first...3rd n 4th rounders taken in the 2nd...by the time we got to the 4th round we were drafting 5th 6th n 7th rounders there. We strengthened ourselves for 2014 a draft that is going to be much stronger in prospects than this year.

We came away with a FS Prospect, DE Prospect n OG/OT Prospect in the late rounds. Would you feel better if we took them in the 4th n 5th??? Our guys thought it was wiser to take these guys later n invest in next years better draft.

Just the fact that adding Bess is ignored shows that you are blind to what really happened. We came into this draft with 6 picks...we come away w/5 rookie n 1 veteran as bonus we have an extra 3rd n 4th in next years stronger class. We lost our 3rd string QB n who knows maybe Lewis beats out Colt in this Offense??? Maybe we lost the guy we were cutting???

But even our late round picks from No where schools...have a tremendous up side.

Gilkey in a year or two might be our starting LG maybe he can beat out Pinkston...the kid is nasty - I hope he makes it.

Bryant we explored in depth n felt his immaturity is behind him...this kid has amazing talent and supposedly our new D has our DE's slashing a lot...this kid can Slash inside...we are looking to add 20 lbs n groom him for a DE role. Hey a 4.8 DE is not that bad. But explosion excellent. Good Prospect - Bust or Excellent what else do you want for a late round pick.

our Safety without the injury he would have probably gone around 2nd round in this draft. Either he heals or he doesn't the kid is a very good player. But we will groom him for FS n SS Nickel n Dime packages n see if he can compete n win a spot...what else do you want from a late round pick.

4th round you want a guy to come in n compete for that starting position. We had none ranked on our board. Betcha we get a better prospect for this team in 2014.

Boo Hoo for nothing in the 4th? True Nothing is NOTHING added. But to pretend the 3rd round pick does not exist for this teams future is just not rational. And its not just a few slots. Even if the Steelers win the SB (more of a chance they will be last in our division than that happening) - Hows this Boo hoo on the Steelers we picked Gilkey n they didn't lol!

I'm tired of this opening up your Christmas presents not even looking at them as you unwrap but instead looking at the kid next to you n no matter what he gets -YOU WANT! And pout on your gift n take the attitude of why do I always get the worse gift. Its a state of mind. I can understand from our first 8 years or so. But we have drafted well of late. The guys who have stuck are pretty good DQ (top 100 by players), Joe T (HOF), Mack (Pro Bowl), Then 24 guys we drafted 2010,11,12 - We never had this kind of youthful talent on our team. There is no reason for this Woah is us...we have out drafted the Steelers n Ravens over the last 3 years. Yeah they got NUMBERS (9??) from a draft that is WEAK! like the grading shown...check, check check....REALLY automatic great players...lol

Automatic starters - their biggest weakness was OL didn't see much help there.

Got to run catch you all later.

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Why be that way,, I asked a question because I hadn't heard it and I still don't know what the hell your talking about regarding the Seahawks.. The article doesn't say anything about the Seahawks..

So,, is this your MO,, someone asks a perfectly reasonble question, then you throw up an article that has no bearing on the question?

wow

daman...hopefully this answers your question...I read this story before making the original post...this talks about what might have lead to the Browns trading the 5th round pick...
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NFL Draft: Browns trade 5th round pick to Colts for 4th rounder in 2014

Waiting For Next Year:

The Browns have traded away a pick for the second time in the 2013 draft, sending their 2013 5th rounder to Indianapolis in exchange for the Colts’ 4th round pick in 2013.

The Browns now have traded out of the 2013 draft twice in favor of adding a higher valued pick in 2014. Cleveland also tradrf their 4th round selection for Pittsburgh’s 3rd rounder next year.

This is frustrating for Browns fans who see lots of holes on the team’s roster and want them filled immediately.Through five rounds Cleveland has only added three players, the two selections of Barkevious Mingo and Leon McFadden, and Davone Bess through a trade with Miami.

Seattle traded up two picks ahead of Cleveland at 139 to give them both picks 137 and 138, selecting DT Jesse Williams out of Alabama and CB Tharold Simon out of LSU. Simon, a teammate of Browns’ first round selection Barkevious Mingo at LSU was thought to be a possible target of Cleveland who despite drafting Leon McFadden in the 3rd round is still weak at...
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Daman...Also, I have read stories that the Browns were targeting the QB from Syracuse, Ryan Nessib with their 4th round (#111) pick but the Giants traded up ahead of us, to take him at #110 pick.

If both situations prove to be accurate, it shows a lack of perpetration by the draft team, having no plan B, if the guy we target are gone.

Also, it would seem that the efforts by the front office to disguise their draft picks might not have worked so well, if both the Giants and Seahawks jumped ahead to pick the player we were targeting.

Excellent Post eotab, I agree with everything you wrote.

My only concern is the Mingo Pick. If he was head and shoulder above everyone else on their board then so be it. I would have taken Milliner or traded back and picked up a second but we will see how it pans out in a few years.

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Corrected me? I already knew that Tampa Bay reportedly wanted to move up. Big deal. Let them. TRich was not worth it. We gave up picks to do move up because we panicked and reacted to what someone else was doing. The smart thing would have been to make the trade w/Tampa Bay ourselves. We could have traded down and received multiple picks in one of the greatest draft classes ever. We could have then taken Doug Martin later, who I kept pimping before the draft as being a better back than TRich.

Then why bring up Minnesota in the first place to justify your position...???. Why does it have to be that we panicked? Why not we made sure we got the best player on our board and knew other teams wanted to jump up to take him? If you want to use panic...you'd have a better argument using that for Weeden. This team, if not mistaken, had 13 or so draft picks last year. Who thinks we were gonna use all of them? We gave a 7th, , 4th, 5th, and our #4 to move up one spot to secure the guy we wanted. Oddly enough people aren't all that worried about punting a 4th and 5th round talent this year. And a 7th, is well, a 7th. They went and got their guy. If Banner and Co. traded up this year, I wouldn't have had a problem with it either. They would have gone and got they player THEY wanted. They just need to be right on it. Its kinda like what Indianapolis and Pittsburgh did over the weekend with us. You don't think Trent is worth it, I do. Moving on....

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You freak out over us trading w/the Steelers, but applauded the TRich move last year. No complaints from you regarding Weeden, never mind that even if he does have adequate skills [that is highly debatable right now], he still didn't have the skill set to play in the WCO. Not a freaking peep from you.

Freaking out? That's a bit absurd and over the top. But yeah, I'm not particularly a fan of it because, philosophically, I don't like trading within the division, regardless of the round and the deal. If we do win this one, wonderful. I'll be the first one to stand up and cheer, but I don't like handing a team we play twice a year a player they obviously wanted. What, is someone supposed to automatically accept a deal done with a team I hate?

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LOL.....you don't want me to say we screwed them, but earlier you said we served up their player to them on a silver platter. You know, Banner has traded w/in the division before. How did the trade of McNabb to Washington work out for the latter? Did Banner serve up McNabb to the Skins on a silver platter? Perhaps he did, but underneath that silver cover of the main course was not filet mignon, but a huge turd.

Yes, I am well aware of the deal Philadelphia made with Washington. He made a point to say it in the press conference. And yeah, the Eagles fleeced them on that deal. I got no problem saying that. However, I'll say I'm a bit more weary trading to a team that builds it's success through the draft and knows what they're doing (Steelers) than one that builds through FA and trades (Redskins). Furthermore, one deal is not inclusive or indicative of what will happen this time around. I like the Colts trade. I'd equally like the 4th round trade down IF it was another team. That's just me. Fine, you don't agree. That is rather evident.

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I think Banner is a very savvy man. I think he has little-man syndrome [which isn't always a bad thing] and he is going to work his butt off to beat the other guys. I think he will be relentless. I think he is very intelligent. I think he understands the business. I have a lot of faith in the guy. I think this guy doesn't care too much of what the fans initially think because he knows [and said] this----if you win, the fans will be happy. He is building this team for long-term success. And trading mid-round picks in a crappy draft for higher picks in a stronger draft class is not stupid. It's smart!

I think Banner is a very savvy man as well. But just because I raise a personal concern about a trade you blow it up and translate it to the rest of the board that I hate everything going on here. It's nonsense and tiresome (a phrase I have to use over again with you). I repeat less things to my 3 year-old niece. And don't tell me I (or anyone else for that matter) can't voice my opinion on a trade the day after it happened because you BASHED EVERYTHING the Browns did last year the minute the selections went down. Richardson, Weeden, Schwartz, and Hughes. Maybe Winn was the only one you "liked". So go practice what you preach before you come on here telling other posters how to feel about this year.

ONCE AGAIN, and I hope it finally sticks in your skull this time

, I like the majority of what this team did in the draft (and in FA for that matter to cover all bases for you) but I inherently don't like trading with the Steelers, Ravens, and Bengals. Outside of that, they drafted the BPA at 6, a position of need in the third, and flyers the rest of the way. The future picks tell me that:

1. This team is not expecting to blow the roof off this year (which we all understand)
2. Indicate the coaches and FO may not be fully informed with the young talent here. Why bring in more guys in the 4/5 rounds when you can get a better sense of young talent currently on the roster in new schemes and make more informed decisions for 2014.

mac. are you really saying that we should have just taken anyone just for the sake of using the draft pick this year?

Just clicking.

Hey guys, remember how we traded our future third pick to grab Martin Rucker in the 4th round...then traded our future 5th to grab Paul Hubbard in the 6th round?

How did that work out for us?

Just saying...

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It's like Banner said mac, and even though it was Banner who said it, it is still true, you don't make ANY deal unless you think you're getting the better end of the bargain. So, if you do get the better of the deal you've just made your team stronger and your division opponent weaker. One can hardly fault the logic in that.

Of course, it's left to be seen who got the better end of the deal.

It's a bold move..very few teams get the best of Pukesburgh..they find gems later in the rounds..they know how to evaluate and fit players into their scheme.
The Browns haven't had anyone who has had the brains to do that.
Is Banner/Lombardi the minds to match the Stoolers?
Banner did come from a organiztion who has drafted well over the years, I have mentioned many times how I envied the Eagles drafts and what they did.

This also seemed to have a touch of Bellyache's style of drafts..NE always..always accumilates picks..as do SF.
So we'll see..part one happens this year when S.Thomas is on the field ,not against us but every opponent.

Part two comes in the third rd in 2014 (If they don't package it in a trade) when the Browns draft.

I wonder how many of our drafts that netted us 0, or 1 player after 2-4 years were graded?

I don't seem to recall a bunch of "D" and "F" grades in there.

He gave us a C in 2009,m and loved the Robiske pick. Instant starter, he said. Loved the James Davis pick as well. Loved his talent.

He panned the Titans for taking Britt. Should have taken Robiske, he said. He disliked the Seahawks passing on Sanchez.

These guys don't really know much more than we do. They have access to more information, but the writers aren't much better at predicting outcomes to drafts than fans are. (especially right after the draft)

My biggest complaint and utter irritation about the Stoller trade..
Freaking ESPN didn't announce the trade!!!!
I was sitting there wondering what happened and figured there was a trade and I had to go back online to hear they traded out!

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mac. are you really saying that we should have just taken anyone just for the sake of using the draft pick this year?

Apparently. By not taking a 4th round SS we will not be making the playoffs.

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The truely funny thing is you think over-all they did a good job. This was a terrible draft at best. The basisly got one player in Mingo and very little else help.

Glad I can make you laugh. Terrible draft at best??? I don't know u might be right I cannot see into the future. I am looking at talent.

You know what is Funny...I got one poster who says they agree with me but the question the Mingo pick...Then another (you) state I am Silly funny but you think our Mingo pick was the only good thing...Now that is funny

Look all I know about Mingo is he has a special First step...you can't teach that...n he has it. What he does with it we cannot predict...that is why they ALL ARE CALLED PROSPECTS.

I like the CB we got...I know he's a slot CB cause the Bozo's n Talking Heads say he is...they don't know. The kid has Cover corner written all over him. Do you realize he is the same size as Sheldon Brown??? Let teams throw to his side...its great for a DC when teams are predictable...we'll drop a CB or LB in the passing lane every now n then n get an INT from it. Besides the kid will learn fast

You know not every thing we do is TERRIBLE.

If you cannot see the difference - Finally we have a drafted Foundation. Now its all about upgrading. This draft was weak n hard to upgrade. But we are coming away with at least 4 new starters n in others we have Prospects/Youth getting better. What happens when you have a Youth Foundation...Progress of the player. Not an overhaul.

We strengthened our 2014 draft. I know when the Patriots do it they are Geniuses. Us...Terrible. lol

I can only think you are a young fan who hasn't seen much since 1999. Bless all of you youngsters for sticking with the TEAM!!! Heck my first year of Football n Browns Football was our last Championship. So I really respect you young fans...heck n you don't have to be 20's to be young fans...you could have gone through the Denver Crapola n the Sipe INT to the Raiders as your initiation to the Browns. Younger than me

But I see a difference. McFadden is Good can't wait for him to show you all n make you proud of the Browns once more or maybe the first time!

Yeah we took a shot at a guy who wasn't that bright - selling drugs to a cop

He gets arrested or something stupid again...he's done. He doesn't he actually could amount to something good.

The kid from ND...he heals up he's one heck of a football player. 6th/7th round there is no risk involved.

No time to commit suicide...Oh woah is us...sit back n enjoy the team you love. Being Bitter about it don't make it Realistic just Bitter.

Later sore all over as I walked 18 - therapy for me...Shot 40 on the back

unfortunately shot 50 on the front

but won all my bets

See it doesn't take much to make me Happy. We are getting closer n closer. I see a lot of good by the FO so far. As Banner stated we win...who is going to gripe

JMHO

jc...

Did anyone catch PFT on NBC sport channel?

Florio and a couple of analists were breaking down the AFC teams draft.

Florio's comment about the Browns...it makes no since for Lombardi to wait till next year to fill positions of need that need addressed "now". Florio thought the Browns should have used all their picks.

Here is the PFT draft review of the Browns...

Draft review: Cleveland Browns

Posted by Mike Florio on April 28, 2013, 1:38 PM EDT

Before the draft, we looked at the needs of the Cleveland Browns. (Eventually, those needs included “a really good lawyer.”) Now that the draft is over, it’s time to look at how they did.

What they needed: Cornerback, quarterback, receiver, linebacker, safety, tight end, kicker.

Who they got:
Round 1: Barkevious Mingo, LB, LSU.
Round 3: Lee McFadden, CB, San Diego State.
Round 6: Jamoris Slaughter, S, Notre Dame.
Round 7: Armonty Bryant, DE, East Central (OK); Garrett Gilkey, OT, Chadron State.

Where they hit: Mingo can be called a luxury pick, given that the Browns didn’t have a pressing need at outside linebacker. But the ability to get to the quarterback no longer is a luxury in the NFL; it’s a necessity. With free-agent acquisition Paul Kruger, the Browns suddenly have the ability to apply the Chudzinski Crunch to the likes of Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, and Andy Dalton. McFadden gives them a potential starter across from Joe Haden, and Slaughter fills an obvious need at safety.

Where they missed: With their second-round pick used last July on receiver Josh Gordon, the Browns traded their fourth-round pick for a third-round pick in 2014, and then their fifth-round pick for a fourth-round pick in 2014. For a team that needs to get better now, deferring a pair of picks to next year won’t help that effort, regardless of who they eventually get.

Impact rookies: Mingo could become an instant star, especially if opposing offenses opt not to game-plan around him until he proves his ability at the NFL level. McFadden could get a lot of interceptions, if quarterbacks avoid Haden and test the rookie. And if the rookie passes.

Long-term prospects: The Browns already had a decent amount of talent, and the decision to not draft a quarterback means that Brandon Weeden will indeed get another year to show that he’s the long-term answer. The lack of any new tight ends, given coach Rob Chudzinski’s affinity for those who play the position, is a good sign for the five guys already under contract.

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While my viewpoint might not be popular with the home town crowd on this message board, many who analyze football for a business raise the same concerns I have raised.

Don't be upset with me because I'm not following the crowd on DT.

BTW, Florio criticized Lombardi for the trades...we all know that Banner made the decision to trade our 4th & 5th round picks away. Lombardi does not have that kind of authority...

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We fleeced the Steelers and you turn it around and make another ridiculous bash against the FO

We FLEECED the Steelers? Yeah, the Steelers always get fleeced. Worst drafting team of all time..... Oh wait, NO THEY AREN'T. Even if we use the pick next year for a solid player, I'd hardly call forgoing a pick this year to take one slightly higher next year as fleecing someone. Maybe we gain 10 or 12 spots. WOW, what a deal. Meanwhile they have a player on their roster and we have.....HOLES at some positions that can be filled in the fourth(the HIGH fourth). And if they blow the pick next year? That's right, they can't blow a pick in your eyes. They have become the new Mankok. Infallible. Every move is genius, every pick a superstar. Just like the 09 draft. You thought that was awesome.

this seems like a fair assesment, that said ...I disagree that Gordon is a miss and he fails to mention Bess which also filled a need.

the trade of picks? I do not know I am kind of torn. I would have preferred to add this year but I understand the reasoning. Yeah it can be labeled a miss this year,,, but IMO it will be a hit next year

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We fleeced the Steelers and you turn it around and make another ridiculous bash against the FO

We FLEECED the Steelers? Yeah, the Steelers always get fleeced. Worst drafting team of all time..... Oh wait, NO THEY AREN'T. Even if we use the pick next year for a solid player, I'd hardly call forgoing a pick this year to take one slightly higher next year as fleecing someone. Maybe we gain 10 or 12 spots. WOW, what a deal. Meanwhile they have a player on their roster and we have.....HOLES at some positions that can be filled in the fourth(the HIGH fourth). And if they blow the pick next year? That's right, they can't blow a pick in your eyes. They have become the new Mankok. Infallible. Every move is genius, every pick a superstar. Just like the 09 draft. You thought that was awesome.

Roberts, who was hired by Savage in 2005, served as senior national scout the past three seasons. He was also the Browns director of college scouting in 2009 after spending the previous four seasons as a national scout.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/

maybe they just don't trust the scouting staff?

j/c

All I have been hearing on the radio, and reading on the net, is how we needed "bodies". If all we needed were bodies then the 17 UDFAs we signed should take care of that.

The thing is, we do not need bodies. We need players. We need upgrades to what we have. Is what was available in the 4th and 5th rounds of this draft (the weakest in God knows how long) really going to make a difference to this team?

I would imagine that the difference in talent between this year's 4th and next year's 3rd to be pretty noticeable. And same with this year's 4th and next year's 5th.

Let's let our guys play a year in the new system, and see who needs replaced.

Seriously, our decision makers know what our weaknesses are, even more than we do. They would not intentionally make moves that do not benefit the team. They had a plan, and they went with it. I am sorry if their plan did not include using the 5th round pick to draft some sleeper safety that some poster has had their eye on since he found some highlights on Youtube.

Let's see what happens before we grade this draft.

Or be like Prisco, who panned the picks of JJ Watt, Von Miller and Clay Matthews right after they were made.

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j/c

All I have been hearing on the radio, and reading on the net, is how we needed "bodies". If all we needed were bodies then the 17 UDFAs we signed should take care of that.

The thing is, we do not need bodies. We need players. We need upgrades to what we have. Is what was available in the 4th and 5th rounds of this draft (the weakest in God knows how long) really going to make a difference to this team?

I would imagine that the difference in talent between this year's 4th and next year's 3rd to be pretty noticeable. And same with this year's 4th and next year's 5th.

Let's let our guys play a year in the new system, and see who needs replaced.

Seriously, our decision makers know what our weaknesses are, even more than we do. They would not intentionally make moves that do not benefit the team. They had a plan, and they went with it. I am sorry if their plan did not include using the 5th round pick to draft some sleeper safety that some poster has had their eye on since he found some highlights on Youtube.

Let's see what happens before we grade this draft.

Or be like Prisco, who panned the picks of JJ Watt, Von Miller and Clay Matthews right after they were made.

yea we have enough bodies on our team for about 3 years. now we just need talent.

just clicking. The Draft is Over.

A saying comes to mind.

" You make your bed, you have to lie in it."

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While my viewpoint might not be popular with the home town crowd on this message board, many who analyze football for a business raise the same concerns I have raised.

Don't be upset with me because I'm not following the crowd on DT.

People don't dismiss your viewpoints as a joke because they're negative.

They do so because most of the time your viewpoints are rooted in a narrow bias, and your comments aren't so much reasoned insight as 'how can I find an angle to trash the regime'?

Sure, some people don't and won't like negativity around here. But there's plenty of posters who are quite negative, but aren't a laughingstock. It comes from presentation and methods of argument more than just having an unpopular opinion.

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yea we have enough bodies on our team for about 3 years. now we just need talent.

The talent in the 4th and 5th rounds in this years drafts had 6th and 7th round draft grades. This draft was weak. The talent we passed on are not much better than the UDFA's. I think it was good value to trade the picks this year for higher picks next year. Even if it was an even swap of picks (4th for 2014 4th) we still would have came out better because the talent level next will be better.

We need to stockpile as many draft picks as possible for Manziel.

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Florio and a couple of analists

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Florio and a couple of analists

I'd really hate to see what profession that is....

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jc...

Did anyone catch PFT on NBC sport channel?

Florio and a couple of analists were breaking down the AFC teams draft.

If you're going to start using Mike Florio as your go-to guy, no one is going to take you serious.

If they ever did to begin with, that is.

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What they needed: Cornerback, quarterback, receiver, linebacker, safety, tight end, kicker.

What they needed according to the talking heads.

We drafted a CB. From what I have seen, this kid is a high floor type, who very well could start day 1. He has the hips to play man to man, and is strong enough to bump with. He's an inch or 2 shorter than Haden. Oh Lord, we should cut him today.

The talking heads feel that we need a QB, yet most of the league was horribly unimpressed with what was available. The Browns seem committed to Weeden for this year, at least to start with, and they have some extra assets if they need to make a move for a QB next year. (when the choices almost have to be better than this year's were) Why throw a draft pick at a position if you are looking at either going with the guy you have, or addressing it next year? How many 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th round picks become starting QBs? How many become good starting QBs? The number isn't large. We could have thrown a pick at the potential problem, but is that solving a problem, or applying a band-aid?

Receiver? Really? A Need? We added Nelson and Bess to Little, Gordon, Norwood, and Benjamin. That's a pretty solid group.

The national talking heads think that we need a safety, but I have said all along that I think that Horton and the coaching staff like what they have seen out of some of the young guys. There is also Rhodes floating around out there if they need a veteran.

I would have looked at TE, but we did add 2 of them in free agency to add to Cameron, Smelley, and Gronkowski. Who knows? I'm not going to jump over the fact that we didn't add a body here.

Kicker? We added a veteran. No need to add a rookie.

One thing that this front office did was to address needs in free agency. I love that we were able to add pass rushers in free agency, and another in the draft.

I also look at the team as it is currently made up and there are a lot of kids we simply do not know very much about. Does it make sense to throw bodies onto the pile when we really don't know about a lot of the younger players we have? I like giving the kids we have a year, and then having extra picks to see where we truly need help.

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The truely funny thing is you think over-all they did a good job. This was a terrible draft at best. The basisly got one player in Mingo and very little else help.

Glad I can make you laugh. Terrible draft at best??? I don't know u might be right I cannot see into the future. I am looking at talent.

You know what is Funny...I got one poster who says they agree with me but the question the Mingo pick...Then another (you) state I am Silly funny but you think our Mingo pick was the only good thing...Now that is funny

Look all I know about Mingo is he has a special First step...you can't teach that...n he has it. What he does with it we cannot predict...that is why they ALL ARE CALLED PROSPECTS.

I like the CB we got...I know he's a slot CB cause the Bozo's n Talking Heads say he is...they don't know. The kid has Cover corner written all over him. Do you realize he is the same size as Sheldon Brown??? Let teams throw to his side...its great for a DC when teams are predictable...we'll drop a CB or LB in the passing lane every now n then n get an INT from it. Besides the kid will learn fast

You know not every thing we do is TERRIBLE.

If you cannot see the difference - Finally we have a drafted Foundation. Now its all about upgrading. This draft was weak n hard to upgrade. But we are coming away with at least 4 new starters n in others we have Prospects/Youth getting better. What happens when you have a Youth Foundation...Progress of the player. Not an overhaul.

We strengthened our 2014 draft. I know when the Patriots do it they are Geniuses. Us...Terrible. lol

I can only think you are a young fan who hasn't seen much since 1999. Bless all of you youngsters for sticking with the TEAM!!! Heck my first year of Football n Browns Football was our last Championship. So I really respect you young fans...heck n you don't have to be 20's to be young fans...you could have gone through the Denver Crapola n the Sipe INT to the Raiders as your initiation to the Browns. Younger than me

But I see a difference. McFadden is Good can't wait for him to show you all n make you proud of the Browns once more or maybe the first time!

Yeah we took a shot at a guy who wasn't that bright - selling drugs to a cop He gets arrested or something stupid again...he's done. He doesn't he actually could amount to something good.

The kid from ND...he heals up he's one heck of a football player. 6th/7th round there is no risk involved.

No time to commit suicide...Oh woah is us...sit back n enjoy the team you love. Being Bitter about it don't make it Realistic just Bitter.

Later sore all over as I walked 18 - therapy for me...Shot 40 on the back unfortunately shot 50 on the front but won all my bets

See it doesn't take much to make me Happy. We are getting closer n closer. I see a lot of good by the FO so far. As Banner stated we win...who is going to gripe

JMHO

One you make assumptios as to me being a young fan and I don't really know what I am talking about. LMAO...

You think McFadden is going to be so great because you know because your old. LMAO.

You think the kid from ND was a good pick. I believe you though that Brady Quinn was a good pick also if a remember your posts from back then. I though Brady was a bust when we drafted him and I think DB is a bust also. Both wasted picks.

You also may think the only 2 times our new drug dealer sold stuff was to an undercover cop. Maybe but a slim chance.

Honestly, I hope the FBI takes down Haslam so we can get rid of Lombardi and Banner. Because I love the Browns and I want them to win, I just don't think either was has the talent or ability to get the job down. And if the FBI is our only hope. So be it. I will root for the Browns and be hopeful of the FBI...

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One you make assumptios as to me being a young fan and I don't really know what I am talking about.

No offense, but it's easy to see where one could come to those assumptions based on your posts.

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Honestly, I hope the FBI takes down Haslam so we can get rid of Lombardi and Banner. Because I love the Browns and I want them to win, I just don't think either was has the talent or ability to get the job down. And if the FBI is our only hope. So be it. I will root for the Browns and be hopeful of the FBI...

Yeah, because yet another complete change of direction would be a wonderful thing.

Personally, I love the coaching staff the Browns have put together. I think that we have exceptional teachers, and excellent motivators. I think that they will help develop some of the younger players already on the team.

Frankly, I really like what the team has done with this off-season so far. We switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and we already have a damn good front 7. We added Groves, and Kruger, and Mingo, and Bryant. That's a lot of heavy duty talent there.

We can line up like this right now:

Bryant/Hughes
Taylor/Kitchen
Rubin/Winn/Bryant
Sheard/Mingo
Robertson/Fort/Carder
DQ/JMJ
Kruger/Groves

That's a strong and deep front 7. There are really no obvious weaknesses. The DL is deep with talent. The OLB corps is impressive. The ILB combines great experience from DQ with youth and speed in Robertson.

I have a feeling that Horton is going to do a lot with his new toys.

The secondary, which has been written off by damn near everyone, looks a little like this:

Haden/Bademosi/Skrine/Barnes
Ward/Hagg(?)
Gipson/Slaughter
McFadden/Owens/Wade

Lots of youth and question marks in the secondary. Fortunately I think that we will generate a pretty ferocious pass rush to help the youngsters out. We could also add a veteran somewhere between now and the opening of the season.

We have to find out about the young guys on this team. We cannot just keep churning through young draftees without ever really seeing if the guys we have can play.

I know that you wish that we had been able to address every single need on this team with a new player, but that isn't always the best approach. Do you agree that a better pass rush very well might help the DBs do their job in coverage? Might a strong pass rush improve not only the outside cover men, but even the 3rd/4th/5th CBs ...... who cover slot receivers and multi receiver sets? I think that pursuing a pass rush as our first priority makes a lot of sense. Do you agree, or disagree? If you disagree, then what would you have done instead?

You want to knock the 7th round kid we took a flyer on, and I agree, to an extent. It was an idiotic thing for him to do, and makes me question how much he loves football if he was willing to risk his football future. That said, he is a 7th rounder. He's worth a shot IMHO. If he seems to be a problem, then what have we lost?

I like what we have done this off-season, and I think that we laid much of the foundation for the team going forward. Maybe next year we add a QB, or maybe another CB ...... or S ....... but we'll have a lot of picks with which to address them. We almost certainly aren't going to win the Super Bowl this year, no matter who we signed/drafted ....... but we laid the foundation for the direction of the team going forward. I am very happy to see that happened so quickly.

I don't know that we're entirely done with our secondary, either.

Probably not any dramatic additions, but there may be a pick-up or two.

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say Owens or McFadden is the #2 CB on game day. Neither of which really inspires me. We're probably going to get torched a lot.

Maybe Skrine, but I don't see how anyone watches tape of the guy and says 'that's our #2'.

I really hope Bademosi makes the team. But it's not a given. He flashed a lot of potential in his limited playing time and he's a very valuable ST asset.

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Honestly, I hope the FBI takes down Haslam so we can get rid of Lombardi and Banner.

Wishing terrible things on people speaks about your character.

Bademosi is, by far, our best special teams player. He also did a nice job as a reserve CB last year.

I really don't see how he doesn't make the team, unless he completely flops in those roles this year.

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Bademosi is, by far, our best special teams player. He also did a nice job as a reserve CB last year.

I really don't see how he doesn't make the team, unless he completely flops in those roles this year.

Bademosi is going to be a bad ass safety imo

I would move him there immediately. I think that he is our best possibility there. He definitely had the ability to hit, and has the speed.

I like him a lot.

Mac don't mean to pile on - but you put yourself out there hope you understand I don't think any of it is personal. Not from me at least.

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Where they missed: With their second-round pick used last July on receiver Josh Gordon, the Browns traded their fourth-round pick for a third-round pick in 2014, and then their fifth-round pick for a fourth-round pick in 2014. For a team that needs to get better now, deferring a pair of picks to next year won’t help that effort, regardless of who they eventually get.

I am very confused from this assessment n think cause of this alone it has some bias involved. 2nd round pick is where we missed? Understand we didn't have it this season...but we definitely got the cream of the 2013 WR crop w/our 2nd round pick...that in itself is a Home Run.

Also ignored by this author is our draft trade for Davon Bess virtually for peanuts.
Then there is this Getting better now bs...with a watered down 2013 draft class talent at the 4th n 5th rounds??? Just how do we get better now with those picks??? At best we would get some guys that would contribute to special teams n possibly can progress to depth or starters somewhere in the future...Where does this "NOW" bs come in.

Regardless who we eventually get??? Total bias crapola - btw just another reason why I call these guys "BOZOS"

Norm67... Curious was I correct on your AGE assumption???

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and I don't really know what I am talking about. LMAO...

Well whether or not you know what you're talking about is still to be seen...but I NEVER inferred that in my post. NOT ONE BIT...If you are not a Troll (don't think you are) It appears from your posting you have no positive experience about our Browns n seem a little too negative or I thought "bitter". Actually I praise you (if my assumption was correct regarding youth) as a fan cause for so many all they have is year after year of disappointment. No where do I insinuate a young fan does not have knowledge of football. Youth has nothing to do with Knowing what you're talking about. My reference to youth was strictly on seeing very little positives for the team you love.

Knowledge...I didn't see any logical knowledge being put out there in discussion just a lot of negative over reaction n a heck of a lot of bitterness.

Yeah I think McFadden will be great cause I know cause I'm OLD

nah...cause I took a close look at this kid from what is available to us in the form of film n I came away with a good assessment - mostly with my football experience that I have nothing to do with OLD except that does give me More time to accumulate experience.

I think the kid from ND was a good pick...only for the fact there is no risk from using a 6th round pick. The kid heals up hes high quality. I'm not worried about a 6th rounder busting...as in OH NO WE ARE DOOMED...the key is Mingo n McFadden the rest are bonus babies. Quinn? you have no idea of my thought as for your recollection. Got news for you...since after the 2001 draft (which I criticized) I would come to the boards n embrace each n every pick as in I AM A HOMER...how I feel about each prospect I do in Private Messages as I do not wish to add to the Chaos on the board.

But I don't even remotely see how my embracing of a First round QB (btw I embrace Weeden too) taken by us in 07 has anything relevant to a 6th or 7th round pick in 2013??? Except what you are saying I have no clue???

I well aware selling POT??? was probably not a one time thing or else the kid is the most UNLUCKY guy around the first time he sold Pot was to a Cop...lol

I might be old but I'm not Naive. I did a lot of stupid things when I was in college...I'm glad I wasn't caught or have them put on YouTube n all that stuff. I believe kids are kids n somewhere along the lines have to MAN UP n mature. I don't know squat about this kid except we sent a coach n looked him over in depth n feel he has turned the corner n matured since the last incident. Again - low risk to none - reward he if he truly has matured is pretty good.

you love the Browns n want them to win??? So you wish Doom n Gloom on guys not into their first season - just another part of your post I HOPE YOU ARE A YOUNGSTER. Cause that is rather immature. I fail to see how that is GOOD n shows Love for the Browns. At least lets see a year or two from these guys before we condemn them n start chanting...Kill Piggy! Kill Piggy! you know when you put immaturity in the position to run things...didn't you learn anything from Lord of the Flies?

If you are an Old dude like me...

way too much bitterness - sorry now who are you from the Old board...lol

As always JMHO just OLDER n Wiser

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Furthermore, who did you expect to get in the 4th or 5th rounds that would be better than a 3rd and 4th next year? The Colts drafted some dude named Montori Hughes out of Tennessee-Martin. If the Browns had drafted that guy, are you telling me you would not have immediately traded him for a 4th round draft pick in next year's draft? Are you really that high on Montori Hughes?

The same could be said of the safety from Syracuse that the Steelers drafted. As pessimistic Browns fans, we call him the "heir apparent to Polamalu." Of course. I, however, see a 4th round safety from Syracuse whom I would have traded for a 3rd round pick any day of the week.

The 4th and 5th rounds are crap shoots. This is where we get the Martin Ruckers, Owen Marecics, Kaluka Maiavas, and Ryan Millers of the world. I would love to unload any of those guys for a 3rd round draft pick.

I'm assuming your questions aren't rhetorical.

Montori Hughes is a baller. He can play any position in an odd front. He will start for Indy this year. That's not just me that thinks this, Mayock said at the combine he could be a second rounder.

As far as the fourth round pick, I'm not as high on Shamarko as more people, but when you have the NCAA reigning interceptions leader at a position you have no starter for, how do you not take Phillip thomas? Marcus lattimore and Quinton Patton were available as well.

That's where you get maiava, Marecic, and miller if you suck at drafting.

I doubt your optimism on both S. Thomas and D. Hughes. It's more likely we never hear of either player again.

The funny thing is that the Browns' picks of Marecic, Maiava, and Ryan Miller are actually above average 4th/5th round picks, considering that all of them are at least still in the league. We have this strange affinity for assuming that other teams are consistently finding gold in these rounds without anybody ever going back to check to see if it's actually true. Let's look at the Steelers, for instance... the team that drafted future HOF Shamarko Thomas in the 4th round and should never be traded with since every 4th/5th rounder they draft is a superstar.

These are the Steelers' 4th and 5th round picks over the 5 years from 2008 through 2012:

Alameda Ta'Amu (out of the NFL)
Chris Rainey (bum, unless you like fumbles)
Cortez Allen (the best of this bunch but certainly not somebody you lament missing on)
Chris Carter (who?)
Thaddeus Gibson (only Buckeye fans even remember this name-- he's been on the roster of 6 different teams)
Chris Scott (no idea who this is. Steelers cut him)
Crezdon Butler (now on his 4th team)
Stevenson Sylvester (cool name. It appears he may be playing special teams still)
Joe Burnett (a backup CB for the Edmonton Eskimos. No joke.)
Frank Summers (now a practice squad player for the Bills)
Tony Hills (on his 3rd team. A backup OL in Indy)
Dennis Dixon (sadly, this 3rd string QB looks good compared to the rest of this lot)

It looks like only 4 of the Steelers' 12 4th/5th round picks from 2008-2012 are even still with the team, with several completely out of the NFL. I would not trade Maiava, Marecic, or Miller for any single person that the Steelers drafted other than Cortez Allen.

It would be nice if we could put to rest the fallacy that the Steelers are better drafters of smarter than everyone when it comes to these middle rounds. It's miss after miss after miss.

If you see my post, I actually said I'm not that high on Shamarko Thomas but think we made a mistake not drafting Phillip Thomas.

Also, the defensive lineman's name is Montori Hughes. And yes, I do think he will end up starting for the Colts at some point this year.

I haven't said the Steelers draft well, by the way, and I certainly didn't join in with the one person who said he might be a future hall of famer.

This is a nice start, I would love to see the comparison to all of the Steeler's third round picks over that same time to see if those players are still playing.

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This is a nice start, I would love to see the comparison to all of the Steeler's third round picks over that same time to see if those players are still playing.

Steelers' 3rd round picks (2008-2012):

Sean Spence
Curtis Brown
Emmanuel Sanders
Kraig Urbik
Mike Wallace
Keenan Lewis
Bruce Davis

They hit 3 out of 7. Frankly, I think you need to do better than that in the 3rd round. Despite their quite undeserved reputation as a draft juggernaut, the Steelers really just don't draft that well.

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If you see my post, I actually said I'm not that high on Shamarko Thomas but think we made a mistake not drafting Phillip Thomas.

Also, the defensive lineman's name is Montori Hughes. And yes, I do think he will end up starting for the Colts at some point this year.

I haven't said the Steelers draft well, by the way, and I certainly didn't join in with the one person who said he might be a future hall of famer.

You're right. I mixed up your Thomases and also conflated Montari Hughes with Dontari Poe (hence, D. Hughes).

Although I quoted you, I was really replying to the general notion that we must have lost the trade because the Steelers are so much smarter. My point is that drafting anyone in the 4th round (Phillip Thomas, included) is such a crap shoot for every team that it is almost always preferable to trade that pick for a 3rd round pick the next year if you can find a sucker to do it. Although everyone loves a Tom Brady story, the realistic ceiling for any 4th round pick is closer to Cortez Allen who, although decidely mediocre, is head and shoulders above the rest of the dregs that the 4th round usually produces. We fall in love with current draft eligible players just because they are fresh in the mind, but even the most highly touted rarely ever pan out beyond a serviceable player.

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We fall in love with current draft eligible players just because they are fresh in the mind, but even the most highly touted rarely ever pan out beyond a serviceable player.

I admit I agree with this assessment. It's tough to shake.

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The funny thing is that the Browns' picks of Marecic, Maiava, and Ryan Miller are actually above average 4th/5th round picks, considering that all of them are at least still in the league.

Marecic and Miller will be lucky to be in the league come September.

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This is a nice start, I would love to see the comparison to all of the Steeler's third round picks over that same time to see if those players are still playing.

Steelers' 3rd round picks (2008-2012):

Sean Spence
Curtis Brown
Emmanuel Sanders
Kraig Urbik
Mike Wallace
Keenan Lewis
Bruce Davis

They hit 3 out of 7. Frankly, I think you need to do better than that in the 3rd round. Despite their quite undeserved reputation as a draft juggernaut, the Steelers really just don't draft that well.

I prefer to give teams a N/A on guys who just get hurt (aka Spence). That gives them 3/6 who became legitimate starters out of the 3rd round. 2 of which became very good starters. I believe that is quite good for the 3rd round.

Miller may have developed some over the course of the past year. That isn't out of the question.

Marecic just wound up doing absolutely nothing well. For a guy who was supposed to be an "all around football player", and a "well rounded FB", he really wound up doing very little well.

I still remember Harbaugh raving about him in Frisco. Maybe we can trade him to the Niners?

Just because Harbaugh loved him as a college player doesn't mean he wants him as a pro.

Plenty of guys that former college HC's rave about, but when a chance presents itself to bring them over tho the NFL level ... they don't.

But, yeah, I'd love it if he sent us a 7th for him, just for old time's sake.

As for Miller developing ... let's hope so. He looked like he won a contest when he was on the field.

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The funny thing is that the Browns' picks of Marecic, Maiava, and Ryan Miller are actually above average 4th/5th round picks, considering that all of them are at least still in the league.

That's tricky business.

First off, I agree that the Steelers have not been drafting as well in recent years. No problem w/that statement.

However, your conclusion that we have drafted well in those rounds is questionable. We created a need by cutting Vickers and draft Marcic. He is terrible and if it weren't for Heckert having control over the roster, the guy would of --and should have--been long gone. Miller played toward the end of the season. He gave up back-to-back sacks on the same move. Maaiva is nothing more than a special teams guy.

The Steelers had better teams than the Browns. Would those three chumps have made the Steelers roster? I doubt it.

I hear a lot of talk about all the young talent the Browns have. I concede that they are young. I disagree w/"all" the talent part. We have some talent, but there are guys who would be cut by almost every other team. We let Mike Adams walk and he is good enough to start for Denver, and we start Haag. Is he young? Yes. Is he any good? No.

I think people get deceived when looking at our roster. I think a lot of our "young talent" would be lucky to make certain teams' rosters, never mine starting for them.

That's all true .... just a little wishful thinking on my part.

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However, your conclusion that we have drafted well in those rounds is questionable. We created a need by cutting Vickers and draft Marcic. He is terrible and if it weren't for Heckert having control over the roster, the guy would of --and should have--been long gone. Miller played toward the end of the season. He gave up back-to-back sacks on the same move. Maaiva is nothing more than a special teams guy.

I hear a lot of talk about all the young talent the Browns have. I concede that they are young. I disagree w/"all" the talent part. We have some talent, but there are guys who would be cut by almost every other team. We let Mike Adams walk and he is good enough to start for Denver, and we start Haag. Is he young? Yes. Is he any good? No.

Yeah, I agree with this. I like a number of our young guys, but there are definitely places our roster could improve.

It is not unusual for a team to try and hide a player on the roster if they are drafted and they team thinks they will take a year to develop. The devious way is to have them put on IR with a hangnail. (See Ocho)

A players biggest leap is between year one and year two, when they have had a chance to spend of full off season as a professional athlete. So we may see something from Miller.

No excuse for Marecic, he was just as bad last year. Let's hope the light comes on or Smelly is the answer. Norv has traditionally had a very good FB on the roster.

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I disagree w/"all" the talent part. We have some talent, but there are guys who would be cut by almost every other team.

I get it you think Heckert is over rated. But it doesn't make you correct about this. You have gone the other direction n totally UNDER RATE him. And don't get mad at me...lol

Here is my point. Its a new regime we got like 30 young guys via draft n UDFA here (just a guess on the numbers but I'm sure its close) - We have a NEW SYSTEM on O n a NEW SYSTEM on D I'm not talking about your Sheards, Haden, Lava, Ward, etc. I'm talking the Bademosi, Gipson, Hagg, Robertson (a released player), Norwood? well many bottom of the barrel guys that you state have no talent...and yet they are still here. If they had no Talent and are not penciled in as starters but are depth guys (Gipson is penciled in) - but if these kids I don't care 10-20 have no talent with no reasoning for CONTINUITY to keep them here considering we are going into new systems. We could have signed several youth with more talent that are numerous n would be signed at League minimum. Just like every regime that came here pretty much made an overhaul of the NONE TALENT that was here. Vers I just don't see that.

And I'm not saying they are great n would start all around the league. I'm saying they actually DO have talent. They will get a good shot here n I see them getting rid of the veteran guys...but not the bottom of the barrel guys. Adams for Hagg not quite sure it was meant that way. I think it was for Young who got hurt n Hagg was forced into service??? I could be wrong and it might be one instance but Adams is/was not that good for the big difference. Yeah I know he went to Denver n started he might be the exception not the rule...we were a young D Denver was a D almost complete? Its ok for Banner to rid himself of Over thirty marginal veterans - but not good for Heckert???

I see no wrong. I don't see our season going down the tubes because we were missing Mike Adams. Anyway I respect the new guys evaluations. I just don't see an Overhaul and there definitely would be one expected if it is as you state.

Nobody is stating (I hope not) that 10 of these 20 guys are going to be starters in the NFL...if 2-3 become starters it is above the norm for the NFL of later rounder/UDFA guys hitting with the team. Thats all n the fact we want them here at least for another season tells me they do have football talent. I expect 10 to get released in the youth turnover with our 5 drafted rookies n 17 UDFA...that is a very natural turnover without Regime change type of numbers. Hope you catch my logic in this all. Again if we get 2-3 starters or good rotational guys...it is above average personnel work.

JMHO

All I have been hearing on the radio, and reading on the net, is how we needed "bodies". If all we needed were bodies then the 17 UDFAs we signed should take care of that.

The thing is, we do not need bodies. We need players. We need upgrades to what we have. Is what was available in the 4th and 5th rounds of this draft (the weakest in God knows how long) really going to make a difference to this team?

Again..I had to think through what I first thought.
The Browns wanted a pass rusher ..that was the top thing on their to do list..build a disruptive pass rush .
They really have addressed it .
They didn't want to tamper with the existing roster too much and they said they weren't going to be able to fix all the holes in one year..well it's said every year so no different with this crew.
They took Mingo instead of the tradedown because he was # 1 target..I'll actually say # 2 ,because I believe Jordan was # 1.
So the cost of getting a second rounder was too high, NE was the team it was reported they spoke to ..and they wanted a # 1 and 2 from this year and next...blah..Bellyache..
So they get a CB WHO ACTUALLY HAS THE coverage skills you want a man cover type although he's not tall but he's lengthy and agile.
O.k..the infamous trade with Pukesbugh and Indy nets us a 3 and a 4 next..more ammo in a talented draft.
Then they bring in players who may or may not contribute in the later rounds and a bunch of UDFA's..
They aren't done..I think it's a good start and they have identified their plan of action..so lets see how they roll.

I don't hate Heckert. Go check out the Lower Expectations thread in the Pure Football forum. I made several posts, but you will find one where I really discuss how I feel about the job he did.

I think he was okay. I get upset because people severely overrated the job he did here and then bash the new guys like they are clueless. Well, they may be clueless....time will tell.....but, I don't see how we lost this great builder of a football team.

I will stick w/what I said. There are guys like Maracic, Haag, Wade, etc who actually received playing time in Cleveland that would be cut by most NFL teams. Young and talented are not two words that ALWAYS go together.

I disagree on Wade. He was a draft pick, and he did a decent job as a rookie last year in a limited role.

I'll absolutely give you Marecic and Hagg though.

The Steelers gave DeCastro and Kelvin Beachum playing time....and one of them was a 1st rounder, not the 10th last player in a draft like Wade and Hagg...by your standards, they must be the most idiotic team in the NFL

Look, if all you can come up with are late 3rd day picks who HAD to get playing time since Heckert inherited 4 building blocks who weren't 30yo (Thomas, Mack, Rubin and DQ...that's it), then it actually proves that he did one heck of a job to re-build the roster.
You tell me again how you fill 18 starting positions + depth in 3 drafts with top talent players...even if you add 2 starters via FA (which made sense to neglect in the first 2 offseasons) like Banner did this offseason, you're expecting to find 4 starters per draft and be good from the word "go"....yeah, fair assessment, lol

Will you please just go away? God, you are unreal. You obviously didn't read my comments in context. I directly quoted a poster who mentioned our choices [Maracic, Maaiva, and Miller.] Ahhhh, never mind. You aren't even worth the time anymore.

Thanks for taking your time then

Wonder why you've been a no show in the 2010 draft thread...not worth your agenda...ehh, I mean "time", I guess

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We need to stockpile as many draft picks as possible for Manziel.

U couldn't be serious , could U?

I sort of know you don't Hate Heckert...cause before there was regime change n as you definitely did Hate Holmgren, you always use to compliment him as doing Ok - well. Only after the regime change n a big Feather in the cap of many of your debate opponents was the work of Heckert...you got harsh on him. But I chose my words purposely n started my post w/I know you think Heckert is Over rated. I don't wish to open the door to insult you from other posters. But wish simply to disagree with you poster to poster.

btw...Hagg finished the season so different then how he started it (after being benched or was it injury?) Started to get it n looked much quicker (thinking less) - he has promise still so does Wade. Again the vast majority of these guys across the board from the NFL are out of NFL football after 3 years...Just saying Heckert did a good job as I believe the vast majority of these players kept by us (last year we brought in 15 UDFA + Drafted rookies...but the guys we kept from that...this year we drafted 5 + 17 n counting UDFA. If the bottom of our barrel brought here with similar investments - we will see a decent amount of Turnover with the youth. But I think we won't keep more than one or two of the UDFA's not counting any thing that opens up due to injury.

Marecic...I don't think there are many if ANY dawgs praising that pick. Unlike many I don't think the mistake was getting rid of Vickers ( who I loved ) but the other kid brought here by Heckert - Clutts, signed from the UFA. But I don't know if that was a Holmgren/Shurmur choice on the roster rather than Heckert after all he brought in both.

A 4th rounder not panning out shouldn't be used as the Summary of Heckerts drafting capabilities. Actually the other 4th rounder that year is a better example. The new regime felt very comfortable letting Watson loose n get scrutinized by the Bozos n Talking Heads for not drafting a TE by pretty much stating Cameron is THEIR GUY at TE not only in words but in deed. No he's not an established star but my point is the kid HAS talent for them to think highly of his Potential n progress.

Horton came right out n stated one of the reasons he came here was cause he loved the youth that we had here...a lot of young Big guys who can run n little guys who can hit. Again I could be wrong n soon after he came here n evaluated the talent here he loved the youth that we had...point being he loved the youth here. Not only words cause after FA n draft hardly any if Any got released n replaced so their actions pretty much showed (to me) these just weren't standard words of a coach joining a new team for media stuff.

As always JMHO

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A 4th rounder not panning out shouldn't be used as the Summary of Heckerts drafting capabilities.

I am so tired of people twisting my words around. I NEVER said that.

I was replying to a direct quote from another poster. I simply stated that comparing mid-round picks between the Steelers and Browns is not NECESSARILY PROOF that we have drafted better than them, because their roster is so much more established than theirs.

Whatever guys. Later.

Got it - my bad...

I see you noted basically a lot of players starting with Marecic getting starting time.

Of course they don't really represent the Starters Taylor, Winn, Hughes, Sheard, Ward, Haden, Trent, Weeden, Gordon, Little, Schwartz, Lava n Pinkston

Now possibly - Cameron, Gipson/Hagg, JMJ

Those are the majority of REAL starters brought here - n the DL I understand there might be some rotation involved in those starter things.

Depth guys progressing in Skrine, Bademosi, Carder (not drafted but cut n picked up), Fort n Robertson (again cut n picked up).

Marecic so far Waste guy - we benched him in lieu for Alex Smith.
Benjamin...never liked him. Bess might spell his doom unless he becomes a return stud.

I do think you Underrate Heckerts contribution here in personnel - these kids are real football players. Why we are not getting rid of them. Heck this regime is even reconsidering Mitchell who was given up on by Heckert n coaches.

But if you look back to this thread. hehehe...we are in full agreement - probably on like 98% of the stuff going on. I might have gotten a fact wrong on What you have stated - but my points really don't change...yes I'm looking for you to possibly change your mind cause I know u are one of the few who would. Just don't lump me in with other emotional discussion you have had. Looking to just have a good football discussion.

got to run.

I'm just very very happy that we have decided to Continue with the foundation rather than the INSANITY of the past of an Overhaul of the players with the change. First times here. First time we had a viable drafted foundation. First time a new regime complimenting that foundation by deciding to build on it instead tear it down n build a new foundation! I am very very excited. I also am one of the few that will praise both Heckert n also Banner/Lombardi for what they have done for us Browns Fans.

JMHO

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The Steelers gave DeCastro and Kelvin Beachum playing time....and one of them was a 1st rounder, not the 10th last player in a draft like Wade and Hagg...by your standards, they must be the most idiotic team in the NFL

Look, if all you can come up with are late 3rd day picks who HAD to get playing time since Heckert inherited 4 building blocks who weren't 30yo (Thomas, Mack, Rubin and DQ...that's it), then it actually proves that he did one heck of a job to re-build the roster.
You tell me again how you fill 18 starting positions + depth in 3 drafts with top talent players...even if you add 2 starters via FA (which made sense to neglect in the first 2 offseasons) like Banner did this offseason, you're expecting to find 4 starters per draft and be good from the word "go"....yeah, fair assessment, lol

Heckert did an average/decent job but nothing special. There really haven't been any early bad busts (ofc it is still too early to make that statement) and I agree this team is significantly more talented and deeper than it was 3 years ago, but a lot of that surely has to do with how much draft power we have had. Pick in the top 10 every year, get a massive package in sort of a fluke trade down, and borrow an early 2nd from a future draft and it's just not that hard to get a lot of young talented players in the mix. A lot of mockers on this board probably could have done a comparable job, yourself included. Heck you might have even done better.

7, 38, 59, 85, 92, 160, 177, 186
21, 37, 59, 102, 124, 137, 150, 248
3, 22, 37, 39 (supp), 87, 100, 120, 160, 204, 205, 245, 247

and still a massive question mark at QB, no real game-breaking players, and no player like an Atkins, Sherman, Wilson who has dramatically outplayed his draft slot. On the bright side there is a real foundation in place and lots of cap room. Hence, average/decent

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yea we have enough bodies on our team for about 3 years. now we just need talent.

The talent in the 4th and 5th rounds in this years drafts had 6th and 7th round draft grades. This draft was weak. The talent we passed on are not much better than the UDFA's. I think it was good value to trade the picks this year for higher picks next year. Even if it was an even swap of picks (4th for 2014 4th) we still would have came out better because the talent level next will be better.

You see, that's where you and most of the others are WRONG, actually this year draft grades in the 4th and 5th rounds were significantly higher then last year.

1st round average grade (ESPN): 2013=94 2012=97
4th round: 2013: 2013= 70.55 2012= 68.56
5th round: 2013: 67.83 2012=62.75

I know this will not stop posters on this forum saying that this year draft was weak on the middle round, although this was never mentioned by the media nor by many here before the draft, but the facts are that at least in ESPN the grades this year were higher.

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and it's just not that hard to get a lot of young talented players in the mix.

And yet since 99 we were not able to...I just don't understand the minimizing of it all.

Clark had 26 picks given to us via the expansion catch up...I think he traded a couple away for players. Sure wish Heckert was there we wouldn't be in this mess.

Why minimized solid prospects in numbers by going back n cherry pick players who were missed on as in yeah he was ok but we could have had so n so...please.

Butch had his picks n did mostly groundhog on what clark did. Not much in adding to the LOS n we've had pretty low picks throughout ALL THESE YEARS to make that as if Heckert was at an advantage from all the other Personnel pickers we have had over the years. Clark overall #1 in each round, Butch two top 10 picks in four drafts - Savage 3 top 10 picks in 3 drafts 08 no picks till the 4th round. Mangini...Overall #5 in his one. So Heckert didn't have this big advantage to justify his better drafting prowess. He got us a slew of Solid starters n depth through the draft n UDFA. Again for the very FIRST TIME since 99 - I don't care how you feel about the individual picks with hind sight could have been better...FACT is we got a Drafted foundation to build on. Never done before. Heckert is gone...so be it - I'm full into the NEW GUYS. But I will always be thankful for Heckert finally putting us in this position to get out of this EXPANSION ENVIRONMENT once n for all!

JMHO

eotab, we should give credit where credit is due, IMHO, the credit should go to Banner , the new FO and Coaching staff.

Romeo/Savage, Mangini, H&H could have done it before, there was some talent in the teams this guys inherited, but the first thing they have done was ripping the old project apart and start building from scratch.

I've always been extremely critic of this rebuilding mentality, so now I must praise the new regime for working and trying to make the most of the talent we have. Glad to ear that nobody is being accused of being a cancer, diva and other names the new regimes always did when settling in. But I'm crediting this to new regime, not Heckert.

I still think there is a big room to improve the talent level of this team, and that we should have done it both in FA and in the Draft, but if this is necessary to better evaluate the team,and to build on the previous base of players then I'm kind of ok with it.

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eotab, we should give credit where credit is due, IMHO, the credit should go to Banner , the new FO and Coaching staff.

Romeo/Savage, Mangini, H&H could have done it before, there was some talent in the teams this guys inherited, but the first thing they have done was ripping the old project apart and start building from scratch.

I've always been extremely critic of this rebuilding mentality, so now I must praise the new regime for working and trying to make the most of the talent we have. Glad to ear that nobody is being accused of being a cancer, diva and other names the new regimes always did when settling in. But I'm crediting this to new regime, not Heckert.

I still think there is a big room to improve the talent level of this team, and that we should have done it both in FA and in the Draft, but if this is necessary to better evaluate the team,and to build on the previous base of players then I'm kind of ok with it.

I agree to an extent. I do commend Banner for his approach at not blowing this thing up although there have been some veteran releases, good or bad is up for debate. Rucker, Gocong, Young are some of the more profile names. Some deferring to not re-sign. And I think the main thing I appreciate is the assumption that the FO and coaching staff has the "unknown" factor from switching defenses and offenses with the talent we have....particularly young talent. I think this is the difference from previous years. The young talent. Not saying we are inundated with it, but I feel this is the most we've had in a long time and it projects a different scenario for a new regime than in the past.

But with that said, I do disagree about the comments of the other regimes you mentioned. I think every situation is different...for example, the past regime kept Mangini and his system, so they let go a very few amount of people. They didn't resign 6 people of zero significance and released five. One was convicted of manslaughter, one was a 32 year old RB, one was named DA, a retiring Tucker. Maybe the situation was different by keeping Mangini. They did make changes in year two after firing Mangini.

I couldn't find the other regimes' moves but I am sure they all brought in their own people at some point....not sure of the timeline, however. Would be more than happy to look at that stuff if people have access to it.

I guess the point is I feel like the main reason we aren't doing anything in terms of the personnel, is we actually have a good talent base on this team. I get some people were released because of their contract, age, scheme fit, and I get that. It was the right move. But lots of guys are assumed to be significant role players that were drafted recently. But lots will be said about this regime's activity in year two after watching these guys in the new offensive and defensive systems. I'm sure we'll know the feeling on players before the season ends...good or bad.

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I've always been extremely critic of this rebuilding mentality, so now I must praise the new regime for working and trying to make the most of the talent we have.

I applaud this regime too for this approach and it's a big relief for me, but to give them ALL of the props is not a fair assessment imho. Banner said it best when he said

"I think it will be clear that the team is continuing to improve as I think it has for the last year or two and positioning itself well to have a chance to become very good and sustain it.”

They like what they saw and unlike some agenda driven posters on here saw the development and talent despite the stagnating overall record, which last season was more on a mix of bad coaching and a very young team unable to finish off games than talent.

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They like what they saw and unlike some agenda driven posters on here

Are you a middle school girl? Seriously.

And of course, you don't have an agenda. Only those who disagree w/your Almighty opinion are the ones w/agendas.

Terry Pluto's Talkin' ... about the Browns' draft rationale, the Indians' power surge and the Cavaliers' off-season roster decisions

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer
May 04, 2013 at 11:55 PM, updated May 04, 2013 at 11:56 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- There's never a shortage of sports topics in Northeast Ohio, so we're talkin' ...

About the Browns' draft ...

I was critical of the team's actions in two stories last week. To be fair, I will explain how the Browns viewed this draft, based on conversations with those who know their approach.

1. The Browns had four players ranked as "blue-chippers." I could only come up with three names -- Barkevious Mingo and offensive tackles Luke Joeckel and Eric Fisher. It's possible the fourth was guard Chance Warmack, although I'm sure they were not going to take a guard at No. 6. The main point was Mingo was on the list.

2. That's why they rejected an offer from St. Louis to trade down to No. 16 and add a second-round pick. If a blue-chipper remained available, they were not about to make a trade unless it was clearly lopsided in their favor. They didn't think the offer for the Rams' 16th, 46th and 222nd picks were enough to pass on Mingo.

3. Mingo fits into their philosophy -- pressure the quarterback. Supposedly, San Francisco had Mingo near the top of its draft board for the same reason the Browns did -- he's physically gifted and quick. He's what their scouts want. They want to load up on pass-rushers and believe they have four at outside linebacker with Paul Kruger, Quentin Groves, Jabaal Sheard and Mingo.

4. They believe that in Ray Horton's 3-4 defense, they can line Mingo out wider than he played at LSU and take advantage of his speed. They also believe that he's athletic and smart enough to know how to drop into pass coverage. Bottom line: In this defense, they do not believe the switch from a 4-3 college end to a 3-4 outside linebacker will be a big adjustment.

5. They would have liked to have had the second-round pick, but they also like having Josh Gordon on the roster. The second round contained several cornerbacks who may become immediate starters. But they believe Mingo will be an impact player, and didn't want to miss a chance to take him simply to stack up more picks.

6. In the third round, they selected Leon McFadden, who started 45 games at San Diego State. They considered him a smart, polished cornerback who can play in several schemes. While McFadden missed the Senior Bowl with a groin injury, he looked strong in several practices and that made an impression -- the Browns already liked him for his college work. Yes, they wish McFadden didn't measure at slightly under 5-10, but they believe he can be a solid player.

7. The Browns hope McFadden can start, but he has to win the position. They have Joe Haden on one side. Buster Skrine and Chris Owens are the other cornerbacks. They believe Owens showed more what he could do in 2011 (playing 49 percent of the snaps) for Atlanta than in 2012, when he was on the field for only 24 percent. Owens had a concussion last season and also missed time with a hamstring injury. The Browns signed him to a one-year, $1 million deal.

8. The goal is for Owens and McFadden to play well enough to at least split some time at the position -- so that Skrine can focus on covering slot receivers. He did a decent job in that role last season.

9. In addition to several personal and drug problems, the Browns didn't see Tyrann Mathieu as a strong outside cover corner. Like most scouting reports, they had LSU's "Honey Badger" listed as a slot cover man and a superb returner.

10. They are very excited about adding receiver Davone Bess. They shuffled some picks with Miami, but didn't lose any. In any discussion of the draft, the Browns say Bess must be mentioned. He's averaged 64 catches over the past five seasons. He has an excellent track record of racking up first downs.

11. Bess is not a big-play guy or a touchdown maker, but he could become one of Brandon Weeden's best friends on third down. In the past five years, his 130 first-down grabs is second in the NFL. Last season, the Browns ranked 30th in third-down conversion at 31 percent. Bess will help. He also is a respected player who should be a good example for Greg Little, Josh Gordon and Travis Benjamin. Only 27, Bess should have productive seasons to come.

12. The coaches did like some of the things Benjamin has shown on tape and in the first minicamp. He is set to replace Joshua Cribbs as the main return main. They also signed David Nelson (recovering from knee surgery) as a slot receiver. Adding it all up, they have five receivers who should help: Little, Gordon, Bess, Benjamin and Nelson. Jordan Norwood and Josh Cooper are back, but I'm not sure how they fit unless there is an injury.

About the lower draft moves ...

1. One of the myths surrounding the trade of a fourth-rounder to Pittsburgh (for a third-rounder in 2014) and fifth-rounder to the Colts (for a fourth-rounder in 2014) is that the new front office was using reports from the scouts of the Mike Holmgren/Tom Heckert regime -- and didn't trust the reports. One top operative became angry when I mentioned that, telling me: "We had all the information we needed. We did our homework. The scouts were not an issue when we came to the trades. We just didn't like the players available."

2. A little history lesson. Joe Banner knew he was the team's CEO from training camp. General Manager Mike Lombardi knew he'd be coming to the Browns during the season. These guys had more time to prepare for the 2013 draft than former GMs Phil Savage (hired in 2005) or Heckert (2010) when they had their first Cleveland drafts. Both joined the team after the season.

3. The Browns had a player in the upper level of the fourth round -- not sure who it was -- that they considered a starter. Once that player was picked, they were open to trading the 2013 pick for a better one in 2014. The Steelers made the deal to take Syracuse safety Shamarko Thomas. The Browns considered Thomas to be a T.J. Ward hard-hitting strong safety, and that's not what they needed. They also were a bit worried because he has a history of concussions.

4. In the fifth round, they saw no one as a starter -- and believed it simply made sense to add two more picks for the 2014 draft -- giving them six in the first four rounds.

5. Most teams had a third- or fourth-round grade on safety Jamoris Slaughter, picked in the sixth. The reason he dropped was the Achilles injury in Notre Dame's third game of the season. At the very least, they consider him a very good special teams player with the potential to be more.

6. Seventh-rounder Garrett Gilkey has added 70 pounds since enrolling at Division II power Chadron State and at 320, is a good developmental player for the offensive line. Guys like this sometimes become useful guards in the NFL.

7. Like most teams, the Browns view the seventh round as a place to take a gamble, which is why they also picked defensive lineman Armonty Bryant. They know he sold marijuana to an undercover policeman while at East Central (Okla.) University, resulting in a three-game suspension. They say they have checked him out and he's worth the minimal risk because they think he has NFL physical skills as a 263-pound pass rusher.

web page

First, this crap about not trusting the scouts Holmgren and Heckert brought in...pure BS excuses from a front office that was overwhelmed and inexperienced on draft day. Banner had a whole season to replace those guys if he didn't trust them...so to use that excuse now is rather weak. It looks like Banner and Lombardi did not have a plan B once the players they were targeting in rounds 4 and 5 were drafted ahead of the Browns.

On the trade with the Steelers, who took SS out of Syracuse, Shamarko Thomas...the Steelers plan to use him as a free safety as well as SS...because he has the speed and versatility to play both positions. Thomas ran a 4.38 at the combine on his first attempt, Thomas had a vertical of 40 1/2 inches and benched 225lbs 28 reps. The excuse that Thomas was just another SS won't fly either.

I'm not buying any of the excuses being floated to cover for Banner and Lombardi's inability to draft the talent this team needed "this year". The Browns draft was being run by a couple of rookies who like to talk a lot (Banner) about their "experience" in the draft room, but their results don't match the talk.

Banner and Lombardi were out of their league and had no plan to deal with a very common event...something as simple as the player Banner and Lombardi targeted got picked ahead of our turn.

I hope Haslam is smart enough to realize his new CEO and GM need help with the draft.

The key to building a team roster via the draft, hinges on the Browns ability to draft the best available talent, then mold them into the type of players the Browns need to overcome the other teams in the AFC North. If the Browns draft grade is last in our division, the chances of the Browns overcoming the Steelers, Ravens and Bengals becomes slimmer with each poor draft.

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First, this crap about not trusting the scouts Holmgren and Heckert brought in...pure BS excuses from a front office that was overwhelmed and inexperienced on draft day. Banner had a whole season to replace those guys if he didn't trust them...so to use that excuse now is rather weak. It looks like Banner and Lombardi did not have a plan B once the players they were targeting in rounds 4 and 5 were drafted ahead of the Browns.

Do you have a hard time w/reading comprehension? Look at this again. If you can't figure it out, let me know and I will decipher it for you.

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1. One of the myths surrounding the trade of a fourth-rounder to Pittsburgh (for a third-rounder in 2014) and fifth-rounder to the Colts (for a fourth-rounder in 2014) is that the new front office was using reports from the scouts of the Mike Holmgren/Tom Heckert regime -- and didn't trust the reports. One top operative became angry when I mentioned that, telling me: "We had all the information we needed. We did our homework. The scouts were not an issue when we came to the trades. We just didn't like the players available."

How in the world did you miss that?

Wow, that's some serious hate!

Lemme as you something mac .......

If the Browns felt that Thomas was worth their 4th round pick, then why would they pass on him? If they felt that Thomas was a starter quality player at FS, why would them pass on him when we seemingly have a need at that position? (and I say seemingly, because I don't see a screaming need there, with youngsters like Bademosi, Gipson, and Hagg returning to battle for the starting job)

Would you have felt better if we would have taken Thomas, a SS with a history of concussions, and if so ....... would you, today, be criticizing this front office for taking a guy that doesn't fit, and with medical risks?

No matter what Banner and Co. do, you aren't going to be happy. If Mingo has 20 sacks next year, you'll probably show up disappointed because it wasn't 25. If we win the Super Bowl, you'll probably have a problem with the way we did it.

You wanna hear something funny Mac.., when I read that article online this morning, I knew that at some point, you would either post it and rip it to pieces or just respond to it if someone else posted it. And then you'd rip it to pieces.

Either way, I was reading it and thinking of you and how you'd spin it to fit your own agenda of hate.

I want to personally thank you for not letting me down

Come on ytown - you know our FO had no idea who Thomas was and assumed the steelers would take a punter if we traded our pick to them.....

I know ..... and the reason they concentrated on Mingo was because he had a strange name they could remember. They threw a dart to select McFadden, and they got confused on Slaughter, thinking that he was related to Webster .....

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It looks like Banner and Lombardi did not have a plan B once the players they were targeting in rounds 4 and 5 were drafted ahead of the Browns.

Actually, it looks like they did - trade the picks for future compensation.

And they carried that plan out.

I am so glad that we aren't just piling on players just for the sake of adding players. I am glad that we appear ready to give some of the young guys a chance to work in the new offense and defense ... especially at positions like FS where I think we actually do have some talent.

I had the same copy n paste to try n set Mac straight on his total warped perception of the incompetence of the FO

I guess no need to n it speaks volumes on Mac n his total fear/hate not sure what it is exactly - on our new FO.

I tried to read a little about where the Steelers are looking to utilize him...all I got was that Lake looks to start him out playing SS but they expect him to play other positions in his future.

Mac...hopefully you see the error of perception n how it seems that you really have PRE-JUDGED our new FO. No matter what they will do - in your eyes it will be wrong...even in this case WHAT THEY HAVE NOT DONE

- all I hear is Gilda Radner in her Rosanna Danna voice sitting there with glasses on stating "NEVER MIND" as the only possible retort you can make.

JMHO - getting old Sucks Mac...me too!

It was "no myth" that the director of college scouting and two scouts were fired, right?

It's not a myth that Banner and Lombardi were getting hammered and questioned by the sports media, why they didn't use their 4th and 5th round draft picks, helping to earn the Browns the worst draft grade in the AFC North, right?

You seem to be assuming that the "top operative" Pluto was referring to, was Banner, Lombardi or Farmer.

Pluto didn't tell us who the top operative was for some reason.

If the top operative Terry Pluto is referring to was Banner, Lombardi or Farmer, why not identify yourself to Pluto to show support for your Browns scouting department?

We don't know where the comment came from either or how it ever made it into the media, even as a rumor...

...from the Pluto article..." the new front office was using reports from the scouts of the Mike Holmgren/Tom Heckert regime -- and didn't trust the reports"...

...was this an "in house" rumor...we don't know, do we?

But if Pluto's "top operative" was someone high up in the scouting department...defending the work his scouting department in the face of "in house" criticism...maybe someone who had just been fired, like John Spytek, director of college scouting or Pat Roberts, Senior National Scout, they might not want their name associated with the comment as they took a parting shot at "the brass".

It's easy to say it was all just "a myth"...but that doesn't mean a blame game was not going on within the Browns Player Personnel department.

Again, I can't think of one good reason why Banner, Lombardi or Farmer would not want their name associated with this comment...

"We had all the information we needed. We did our homework. The scouts were not an issue when we came to the trades. We just didn't like the players available."

...unless they were not the source of the comment.

Your hate has no boundaries.

Pathetic.

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Your hate has no boundaries.

Pathetic.

Oh, the irony

http://funjooke.com/uploads/pinkbluelovescute.com*wp-content*uploads*2012*09*Oh-the-irony.jpeg

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Your hate has no boundaries.

Pathetic.

vers...if you know who the "top operative" was...please share it with us.

Keep in mind, it was not just me that hammered Banner and Lombardi for the round 4 and 5 snafu...

I happen to believe Banner and Lombardi earned the D or C draft grades that most draft analysts gave them.

You must admit, if the Browns continue to earn the worst draft grade in the AFC North, it's not likely that the Browns pass the Steelers, Ravens or Bengals, and make it to the playoffs.

The hard part of the rebuild was the first 3 yrs of the 5 yr rebuilding plan. All Banner and Lombardi have to do is put the finishing touches on the 5 yr rebuilding plan started in 2010.

"If the top operative Terry Pluto is referring to was Banner, Lombardi or Farmer, why not identify yourself to Pluto to show support for your Browns scouting department?"

Mac, a little off the point of your post but want to chime in anyways. Maybe I'm misreading you but are you saying Pluto doesn't know who the top operative is.? Like he met the guy in a dark corner in a parking garage as to not see his face?

Of course Pluto knows who it is. He talks to him regularly. It's one of his sources. He uses top operative to let us readers know its someone important without ruining his journalistic integrity by revealing who it is. If he did that he'd never get a job again as no one would trust him. We can speculate on who it is all we want. We"ll never know. But using top operative does make some sense that it could be one of the three you mentioned.

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We can speculate on who it is all we want. We"ll never know.

Deep Throat.

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We can speculate on who it is all we want. We"ll never know.

Deep Throat.

Or Deep Threat

mac, once again---you are posting nonsense.

Please provide a quote from a Brown's FO person saying that they did not trust the scouts and that they were unprepared.

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You must admit, if the Browns continue to earn the worst draft grade in the AFC North, it's not likely that the Browns pass the Steelers, Ravens or Bengals, and make it to the playoffs.

You must admit, draft grades are useless and are forced upon writers to generate clicks for websites.

I think the Steelers will regret that trade come next years draft ... JMHO

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"
Mac, a little off the point of your post but want to chime in anyways. Maybe I'm misreading you but are you saying Pluto doesn't know who the top operative is.? Like he met the guy in a dark corner in a parking garage as to not see his face?

Mr Beeks

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I think the Steelers will regret that trade come next years draft ... JMHO

I hope they really regret giving a pick away to the Browns. I don't like to wish ill on anyone, so let me just hope that the Safety the Steelers drafted turns out to be exceedingly below average.

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It's not a myth that Banner and Lombardi were getting hammered and questioned by the sports media, why they didn't use their 4th and 5th round draft picks, helping to earn the Browns the worst draft grade in the AFC North, right?

Personally, I am more than willing for you and Vers to battle this thing out as you wish. But sometimes when you read something a poster has written it causes a thought to race through your mind. You react to what you've read and that's all that I am doing here. Maybe this wasn't the critical element of your reasoning but you did include it in your rationale. To me its a specious piece of reasoning that spills over onto the rest of your argument. The opinion of sports writers and draft graders? Really? Including this as part of your objection to how the 4th and 5th round picks were handled cheapens your argument. Most fans and I include you in this, know the relative worthlessness of these grades. They only matter in the ether of internet blogs, message board post and tweets. They have no actual bearing on anything real related to player personnel.

Carry on....

mac, I am still waiting for that link.

You gonna be a man and apologize, or continue to be your usual self?

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mac, I am still waiting for that link.

You gonna be a man and apologize, or continue to be your usual self?

Give it up man. I haven't even asked him for links. I have simply asked him to answer questions....about 100 questions ago. At this point I don't even waste my time.

mac never answers questions. He asks questions of others and pushes relentlessly, even to the point of badgering, for them to answer him. But he doesn't answer questions posed to him.

If he responds at all it's with article quotes, that with a huge stretch of imagination can be twisted to appear to back him up. And if no one can see the connection between his posted quote and his claims, then he merely posts it again and again and again as if by repeated exposure it will magically change its meaning to make him right.

I don't even bother reading 90% of what mac writes anymore.

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I don't even bother reading 90% of what mac writes anymore.

He's an easy punching bag; a tomato can, if you will.

Outside of that, his posts don't really have any value.

I feel bad for Mac...he's harmless he will make a point here n there. Its rather easy to debate him...too easy. And we all know he will NEVER CHANGE HIS MIND...no matter how obvious it is that he is wrong. I use to get upset, might have even got banned with a Aluminum Hat post...lol

now I view it as Mac being Mac n find it humorous n harmless.

Anyways as for the beating...yes, its deserved. Grades - these guys give grades for the draft. Next year when we make 9 picks n get 6 in the top 130. Our grades will be great even if they think we made bad picks by the shear volume of picks we did well in the DRAFT GRADES. Just like in the past where in 3 years 90% of our guys were out of football but because we had 9+ picks we were given HIGH GRADES

First thing I stated after this draft was if we got a better than C grade from these Draftnicks I would be shocked simply because of the 5 picks.

Meanwhile the 49ers get praised for taking Lattimore in the 4th while we took Chris Faulk (OT w/Knee injuries) in the UDFA - but it was not a PICK it was a UDFA signing so I guess it don't count.

Also this draft was probably overall one of the weakest in a long long time. Had some decent depth in OL n CB but not much else. Next year is suppose to be a lot stronger draft. How is it not GOOD for our Long Term success to have nobody that we thought worthy this year to jump realistically 20 slots for next years draft. Also more incentive to beat the Steelers twice n get that Low 3rd round pick

And a 4th rounder from the Colts. But because it made our 2013 draft # 5 instead of 7 we punted

nice catch phrase to glom onto Lombardi n Banner. We all know how the media loves the Steelers...so they won't ever say the words Browns "PLAYED" the Steelers with that trade. Which very well can be the case

I really like the late round picks n UDFA's we got - I think we did an excellent job of adding onto the young foundation that we had here. I will bridle my enthusiasm cause I'm considered a HOMER but inside me instead of a normal man not again type of feeling then I would post Positive. Inside of me...I'm giggling so I'll tone it down n just ENJOY IT!

Bring the season on!

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I feel bad for Mac...he's harmless he will make a point here n there. Its rather easy to debate him...too easy. And we all know he will NEVER CHANGE HIS MIND...no matter how obvious it is that he is wrong. I use to get upset, might have even got banned with a Aluminum Hat post...lol now I view it as Mac being Mac n find it humorous n harmless.

EO...well, welcome back to the board, old friend...I don't need you or anyone feeling sorry for me and anytime you want to debate me on a subject I post, feel free to do so.

Do I give up easily in a debate? NO...you might see that as an unflattering trait...I don't. If you are going to debate me, bring your facts and we will go around for a while, but if you are looking for someone to give up easily...that's not what I'm about.

I have no problem admitting if I'm wrong, if someone uses facts to back up their claim. But if someone is just using their opinion on a topic, to challenge me...well, I'm aloud to have an opinion too.

Someone uses the following in their signature line..."If everybody had like minds, we would never learn"....I kind of agree this logic.

It is true that I'm not a "follower" of anyone on this message board and I do not openly try to enlist followers like "some" I know on this board. If you are looking for someone to be a "follower"...that is not me.

So you (anyone) can take all the shots at me you want, I'll still be here.

If you are looking for someone who gives up easily and wants to be your lap dog...that not what I'm about.

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I have no problem admitting if I'm wrong...

I'll give you that.

You have no problem admitting you are wrong?

mac, this all started because you posted this:

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First, this crap about not trusting the scouts Holmgren and Heckert brought in...pure BS excuses from a front office that was overwhelmed and inexperienced on draft day. Banner had a whole season to replace those guys if he didn't trust them...so to use that excuse now is rather weak. It looks like Banner and Lombardi did not have a plan B once the players they were targeting in rounds 4 and 5 were drafted ahead of the Browns.

The article clearly stated that the FO was NOT using that as an excuse. In fact, a source became angry about that RUMOR!!!!

I asked you to provide one quote from anyone in the FO who used the H and H's scouting department as an excuse. You did not do that. Fact is, you will never be able to do it because it NEVER FREAKING happened. That is a fact. Not an opinion.

You misread the initial article because you were reading through hate-filled eyes. You made a mistake. Admit it. Fact is, you can't. You never admit that you made a mistake. Instead, you'll probably post an article about the 1969 Steelers as proof that you are right.

The hard part of the rebuild was the first 3 yrs of the 5 yr rebuilding plan. All Banner and Lombardi have to do is put the finishing touches on the 5 yr rebuilding plan started in 2010.

Then how do you explain Vegas posting the Browns with only five wins? You must be Mac da Greek.

Grrrrr....

+1
also only 4 blue chippers how about jarvis jones he will outplay mingo.

How do you know that?

yes lattimore

I have jarvis jones much higher on my board than mingo 14 sacks verses 5 ..

Bad Kendall! Bad!

???????????????

What's up w/that Jackson dude?

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I have jarvis jones much higher on my board than mingo 14 sacks verses 5 ..

And that translates to what? I could do the same thing but it doesn't always gauge what a players does when he's asked to do something different in the pro's.
I've seen many players with little production in college come in and tear things up..and I've seen the opposite.

Hate profiling but maybe a Steeler Troll - too much love for a team on the down turn.

Jarvis Jones??? I don't care about the Neck/Spine thing. It might come into play 5-7 years from now - has nothing to do with now n next 5 years. Just when he ran that slow n you take a 2nd look at the tape n all those Sacks/TFLs - It seemed a lot of System plays as Georgia had a "GREAT" defense which left Jones untouched. I didn't see the explosion to remotely beat an NFL LT or for the most part most RT (well at least ours

) I see him running downhill n getting an untouched hole n possibly then beating a FB or RB getting his sack. I just didn't see that 10 yard explosion to make up for that lack of Speed.

Also I wonder if Jones drank a lot of water to boost up his weight at the combine maybe hurting some of that speed (pro day not much improvement if IRCC) but I like how Mingo is OH TOO LIGHT but super quick n Jones is just fine at 245???

We are not going to put too much on Mingo this season but I'm sure he will be matching that 245 by Sept. 1st.

Point blank I see us improving our LOS n the Steelers already at a negative there really not helping it much...So UN Steeler like to ignore the LOS - our benefit and now we got their 3rd round pick in 2014...lol Maybe an Early one

JMHO

I think this is a good read for Jone's luvers..

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/01/jarvis-jones-buyer-beware/

what?

you guys are on jones over mingo this year I just call them as i see them
buy the way I lived in monterey california when the immaculate reception took place I hate the steelers more then you guys can a guy give a honest opinion.

I am sorry I like lineman that can tackle not run..
nfldraftcountdown said jones will be better than mingo.

ditto nfldraftcountdown jones will be a better lb (truthfully just to lighten things up here I hope i am wrong but i know what i have seen)than mingo.
the biggest problem mingo will face a 6-5 340 pulling guard running right at him him on 3 and 4.

Well at least you didn't say you were there for the DRIVE and THE FUMBLE...lol

Raider fan I presume???

Anyways...honest opinions are accepted but they don't have to be 100% negative. And possibly somewhat correct if you are going to slam the Browns n praise the Steelers.

I've seen 14 sacks vs. 5 sacks as a Signed Sealed n Done in regards to the argument. Meanwhile for the first time in a long time I see the Steelers actually scrambling. I think the Jarvis pick was a little desperate. I thought the world of Jarvis as I watched his Hilight reel. Then when he ran a 4.9??? What 1st round OGs n OTs run. I'm like ok 40 time isn't everything but still 4.9???? Wow. Thought ok maybe something happened - tweaked the hammy something but he did not redeem himself on his Proday. Although not the end all of stats...its all about Transitioning what you see in college into the NFL. The biggest difference is the Over all speed of every player in the NFL to college...will he beable to transition that game to NFL. So as mentioned when I went back n studied him more n more. It sort of showed that he was not as explosive as his Highlight reel indicated. 3-4 OLB is ALL ABOUT EXPLOSION!

I think the Steelers reached BIG TIME.
I saw us actually get the better of the Steelers in a draft day trade. As Banner stated - hey not all trades are Win Win...so its always better if you make a trade n you get the Better of it! I think its obvious we got the better of it. 3rd rounder in a stronger draft class vs. 4th rounder in a weak draft class??? Our benefits will come in 2014. Out of sight out of mind...2013 of course the Steelers look like they did something good n not good for us...well when 2014 comes around then who has the upper hand on this deal

Nice to see us not only catching up to the Steelers but possibly surpassing them (all up to how Weeden plays). Big Ben is getting older n cannot with stand the punishment he gets I see him breaking down earlier n earlier.

But then all this should make you Happy cause you hate the Steelers as much as we do

I see not an Honest Opinion. I see one negative post about the Browns after another. I mean I know I'm a HOMER...but nothing is THAT BAD.

JMHO

Haha is Jacksondawg just talking to himself? Saying ditto to your own posts? haha

well first of all if you read the the post above I said I hope I am wrong but that is not what I see.
2 I also route for the denver broncos I get to see a real organization in action.
3 mike lombardi and banner were both run out of town another negative.
4 If you look at my draft before the mingo pick you see that there was hope for the browns.
In conclusion even if mingo pans out teams are going to flat pound us like we are 13 year old kids playing against the varsity.
If you saw ray horton defense the bully boys took his speed defense out side to the woodshead and beat them within a inch of there life.

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Hate profiling but maybe a Steeler Troll - too much love for a team on the down turn.

Jarvis Jones??? I don't care about the Neck/Spine thing. It might come into play 5-7 years from now - has nothing to do with now n next 5 years. Just when he ran that slow n you take a 2nd look at the tape n all those Sacks/TFLs - It seemed a lot of System plays as Georgia had a "GREAT" defense which left Jones untouched. I didn't see the explosion to remotely beat an NFL LT or for the most part most RT (well at least ours ) I see him running downhill n getting an untouched hole n possibly then beating a FB or RB getting his sack. I just didn't see that 10 yard explosion to make up for that lack of Speed.

Also I wonder if Jones drank a lot of water to boost up his weight at the combine maybe hurting some of that speed (pro day not much improvement if IRCC) but I like how Mingo is OH TOO LIGHT but super quick n Jones is just fine at 245???

We are not going to put too much on Mingo this season but I'm sure he will be matching that 245 by Sept. 1st.

Point blank I see us improving our LOS n the Steelers already at a negative there really not helping it much...So UN Steeler like to ignore the LOS - our benefit and now we got their 3rd round pick in 2014...lol Maybe an Early one

JMHO

This is exactly right. Jarvis Jones got many of his sacks due to his system. I read a stat that said he got like 9 of his sacks on plays in which Georgia blitzed 6+ defenders. A lot of the sacks I saw him get were him coming completely untouched.

Having said that, unfortunately I think he will be a pretty good player. And he fits the Steelers' scheme perfectly. Although he isnt very explosive for a pass rusher he uses his hands VERY well.

Doesnt come close to having the potential Mingo does though. And the weight thing is a non issue for Mingo. I think its hilarious that people are so concerned with this. I bet you he starts the year around 250lbs.

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nfldraftcountdown said jones will be better than mingo.

Well then, that settles it!

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What's up w/that Jackson dude?

very similar writing style, tone, and type of comments to a poster who has been repeatedly banned and created new identities over and over before (Kendall Storm was one of those)

I love how Jarvis Jones plays. He isn't as strong as Mingo, but he has better natural football instincts IMO. He is great at making the tackles in space (though can get blocked out of a play) and he (like Mingo) never gives up on a play.

Really, I think the slightly lesser frame plus the worry about the spinal stenosis (you pay that much money, then it is a worry and I think why he dropped to Pitt) was the reason he fell. I think he'll be a good player as well, but hope that Mingo proves better.

Agree with all of this.

I think that Jarvis Jones will step in as a 3 down player right away. He is a more polished football player right now. Especially since he already played in a 3-4. Honestly when the Steelers picked him I wasnt happy. I think he will be a very good player.

But Mingo will end up being a better player IMO. I just think he needs some good coaching and I believe he will fit in as a 3-4 LB MUCH better than he did a DE at LSU. And he was so under-utilized at LSU its ridiculous. Someone with his skill set should not be used as a glorified spy.

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ditto nfldraftcountdown jones will be a better lb (truthfully just to lighten things up here I hope i am wrong but i know what i have seen)than mingo.
the biggest problem mingo will face a 6-5 340 pulling guard running right at him him on 3 and 4.

Jones would have that problem too,don't out think the situation.
No secret that Mingo is lightweight .Bur he's going to be used more as a edger usher than someone brought in to stuff the run.
Lets wait and see how they're used and actually what they do.

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ditto nfldraftcountdown jones will be a better lb (truthfully just to lighten things up here I hope i am wrong but i know what i have seen)than mingo.
the biggest problem mingo will face a 6-5 340 pulling guard running right at him him on 3 and 4.

Jones would have that problem too,don't out think the situation.
No secret that Mingo is lightweight .Bur he's going to be used more as a edger usher than someone brought in to stuff the run.
Lets wait and see how they're used and actually what they do.

Mingo will most likely be used as a situational pass rusher like Aldon Smith or Bruce Irvin. And I imagine Jarvis will come in and start right away.

But just because Mingo wont start and Jarvis will, doesnt meant that Jarvis will automatically have more of an impact.

I actually think that Jarvis Jones will be "spotted" to start with, because the Steelers already have Woodley and Worilds at OLB. Heck, Worilds had 5 sacks last year for the Steelers in limited duty. They will put Jones in position to succeed, probably as a situational rusher to start with.

I think that Worilds real weakness is in pass coverage. He seems to be a fairly solid tackler, and is a solid pass rusher. I don't think that Jones is going to upgrade the pass coverage.

Jones just doesn't have enough fire for me. He shys from contact. Runs away from blockers and has really terrible pursuit. I think he's polished. He knows how to get sacks and he can tackle. The only reason he'll bust is hes incredibly lazy. There will always be a spot for a guy who can get 8-12 sacks a year. I think he's best used as a weapon not as a star.

He'll be a good complimentary rusher who can drop and read coverage well. I think he might actually be an ILB for Pitt. Salvage his career because he isn't the OLB people think he is. Like they did with Timmons. No one thought he'd be an ILB after being a light edge rusher at FSU.

But to think he has anywhere near the upside or fire that Mingo has is absurd. Mingo gives more effort, more heart, more pursuit, more ferocious hands, more speed, more power, more length and more brains. Mingo has every blue chip quality you have to have from an edge rusher to be a freak. When he grows into his body and hones his hands for tackling and battling I have no doubt in my mind he much if any less of a player than DeMarcus Ware.

I was there in the game before the drive bernie last minute comeback with a pass to webstar slaughter.

?????????????????

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nfldraftcountdown said jones will be better than mingo.

Well then, that settles it!

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I think this is a good read for Jone's luvers..

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/01/jarvis-jones-buyer-beware/

More than that, watching Mingo's numbers and you saying we would have gone after Collins in a trade down scenario....this really explains that Banner and company are all in on football sabermetrics. Not sure this stuff works as well in football as it does in baseball, but I hope he is right...he better be

excellent analysis the thing i like most about jones is how he reacts in coverage,
Not sure but I believe he may have lead college in interceptions,

Lead college in interceptions?

yes I think he may have lead linebackers in picks.
due you see his stats or are you just trolling?

vers...you seem to be defining a "myth" and "rumor" as a flat out lie or untruth...which is not the definition of either word.

One definition of myth is...a half-truth...

You refer to "myth" as a "RUMOR" ...and again, you seem to imply that a rumor is a total untruth...but that is not the definition of the word.

rumor-
1: talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth

My take on the use of the word "myth" by Terry Pluto...the source didn't want his/her name associated with comment OR Pluto didn't know the source of this comment...
...."the new front office was using reports from the scouts of the Mike Holmgren/Tom Heckert regime -- and didn't trust the reports."

I did not consider the comment as being false...you seem to believe it was 100% false.

The first time I read the comment was in Pluto's article. Pluto had information and sources that he was not willing to identify, but he still felt it was necessary to print the comment I quoted above, without naming sources.

The part about the "top operative" denying the Pluto's report...we don't know who the "top operative" is, do we?
....I thought the source might be someone from the scouting department, since the comment was about the scouting reports.
....you seem to believe the "top operative" was Banner, Lombardi or Farmer. If it was one of these 3, why not allow Pluto to use your name as the source, knocking down the rumor?

Bottom line, there is room for readers to come to different conclusions...different opinions...concerning the anonymous comments in Pluto's article that have to do with scouting reports and top operatives. You are entitled to your opinion...BUT, so am I.

If you can bring facts to the discussion that identify the sources in question, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong. But, if you simply have a differing opinion of Pluto's story...so be it.

Terry Pluto's Talkin' ... about the Browns' draft rationale,

About the lower draft moves ...

May 04, 2013

1. One of the myths surrounding the trade of a fourth-rounder to Pittsburgh (for a third-rounder in 2014) and fifth-rounder to the Colts (for a fourth-rounder in 2014) is that the new front office was using reports from the scouts of the Mike Holmgren/Tom Heckert regime -- and didn't trust the reports. One top operative became angry when I mentioned that, telling me: "We had all the information we needed. We did our homework. The scouts were not an issue when we came to the trades. We just didn't like the players available."

2. A little history lesson. Joe Banner knew he was the team's CEO from training camp. General Manager Mike Lombardi knew he'd be coming to the Browns during the season. These guys had more time to prepare for the 2013 draft than former GMs Phil Savage (hired in 2005) or Heckert (2010) when they had their first Cleveland drafts. Both joined the team after the season.

3. The Browns had a player in the upper level of the fourth round -- not sure who it was -- that they considered a starter. Once that player was picked, they were open to trading the 2013 pick for a better one in 2014. The Steelers made the deal to take Syracuse safety Shamarko Thomas. The Browns considered Thomas to be a T.J. Ward hard-hitting strong safety, and that's not what they needed. They also were a bit worried because he has a history of concussions.

4. In the fifth round, they saw no one as a starter -- and believed it simply made sense to add two more picks for the 2014 draft -- giving them six in the first four rounds.

5. Most teams had a third- or fourth-round grade on safety Jamoris Slaughter, picked in the sixth. The reason he dropped was the Achilles injury in Notre Dame's third game of the season. At the very least, they consider him a very good special teams player with the potential to be more.

6. Seventh-rounder Garrett Gilkey has added 70 pounds since enrolling at Division II power Chadron State and at 320, is a good developmental player for the offensive line. Guys like this sometimes become useful guards in the NFL.

7. Like most teams, the Browns view the seventh round as a place to take a gamble, which is why they also picked defensive lineman Armonty Bryant. They know he sold marijuana to an undercover policeman while at East Central (Okla.) University, resulting in a three-game suspension. They say they have checked him out and he's worth the minimal risk because they think he has NFL physical skills as a 263-pound pass rusher.

web page

good reply mac

Manti Te'o led FBS linebackers with 7 INTs in 2012.

Kiko Alonso of Oregon, Nathan Herrold of Ark. State, Dion Bailey of USC, and Eddie Lackey of Baylor were second with 4.

Jarvis Jones, in 3 collegiate seasons, has 1 total INT.

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the worry about the spinal stenosis (you pay that much money, then it is a worry and I think why he dropped to Pitt) was the reason he fell.

No Logo...you really think that. Not that for the fact of a 245 Speed Edge rusher running a 4.9 as a flag that maybe he isn't as fast (for the NFL) as he looks on tape against (slower college players?) I mean Suggs dropped to a lot of teams with his slow run (not as slow as Jones) but he gained like 15 lbs in a month for the Combine.

I think personnel departments went back to their tapes n saw signs that Jones will not succeed like they thought he did.

Also thank you for recognizing his lack of size. Many here are saying Mingo skinny this n Mingo skinny that. While there is like 5-7 lbs between the two.

Clevesteve...really?
Wow that blows a big Credibility hole into this poster jacksondog. Don't care if you are a Browns fan, Steelers or Bronco fan. Its all about football discussion which is welcomed from anywhere. But when you state stuff to another poster to look at the facts on your claim about Jarvis leading all college LBs in INTS. What thinking we are dummies here n won't check. These guys Negative Positive don't matter all get into their football n have no problems looking into Statistics!

ONE FREAKING INT in his entire college Career???

"Jarvis Jones, in 3 collegiate seasons, has 1 total INT.

"

Sorry you smell like a Steeler Troll - the odor is strong

Probably about as wrong as a poster can get in a claim

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Clevesteve...really?

ONE FREAKING INT in his entire college Career???

Yup.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/15799/type/college/jarvis-jones

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the worry about the spinal stenosis (you pay that much money, then it is a worry and I think why he dropped to Pitt) was the reason he fell.

No Logo...you really think that. Not that for the fact of a 245 Speed Edge rusher running a 4.9 as a flag that maybe he isn't as fast (for the NFL) as he looks on tape against (slower college players?) I mean Suggs dropped to a lot of teams with his slow run (not as slow as Jones) but he gained like 15 lbs in a month for the Combine.

I think personnel departments went back to their tapes n saw signs that Jones will not succeed like they thought he did.

Also thank you for recognizing his lack of size. Many here are saying Mingo skinny this n Mingo skinny that. While there is like 5-7 lbs between the two.

His speed certainly played a factor as well. I don't think we should discount his spinal stenosis is all when it has shortened many NFL players careers (most recently Marcus McNeil).

There were some on here (notably DJ) who didn't like his tape. I hope that they are correct and he busts in the NFL though I thought he was a very good college player with a good chance to continue that success at the next level.

But he doesn't have spinal stenosis! It was a misdiagnosis!

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/blog/...ing-to-a-report

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000...-medical-report

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There were some on here (notably DJ) who didn't like his tape. I hope that they are correct and he busts in the NFL though I thought he was a very good college player with a good chance to continue that success at the next level.

I am one who has combed over his tape many times. I didn't like what I saw. That said I think if he becomes a bust it's because of his poor work ethic and attitude. Skill wise I think he could be at best a nice complimentary rusher. Think of a Sheard that shys from blockers. They have a very similar rush and body style to me.

Never let stats get the way of a good argument.

He probably meant Inoperable Neck Trauma

(i'm aware he was misdiagnosed

)

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But he doesn't have spinal stenosis! It was a misdiagnosis!

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/blog/...ing-to-a-report

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000...-medical-report

or was he? he likely went to many doctors and found one that cleared him. yes, a good doctor, but there can be differing opinions on this kind of stuff. it even mentions that Bowers had the same thing come out before his draft and he slid anyway in that cbssports article.

I have learned not to trust much news in the immediate lead-up to the draft.

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While the positive report is a good sign for Jones, it's important to keep a few things in perspective. NFL teams who are interested in possibly drafting the 2012 SEC sacks leader will perform their own due diligence on his injury background. Brigham is considered one of the top doctors in his field so teams will certainly keep the report in mind, but at the end of the day, NFL decision-makers will trust their doctors and training staff on whether or not Jones' durability will hurt his pro potential.

Similar “positive” reports surfaced before the 2011 NFL Draft regarding the questionable health of DaQuan Bower's knee. However, NFL teams remained skeptical due to their own medical reports, and the Clemson defensive end was taken off some draft boards completely. Bowers, who was once considered a candidate to be the No. 1 overall pick, ended up falling to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in the second round as the 51st pick overall.

I had a re-read of an MRI on my back.

The original MRI reading said that my back was absolutely normal. The 2nd found significant issues. The 3rd (yeah, we had it read a 3rd time ..... kind of a tie breaker) found significant issues.

This was read at the Cleveland Clinic ..... so the doctors involved were pretty darn good doctors. However, a 2 doctors can look at an MRI and see completely different things. It really is rather scary.(By the way, a surgeon I spoke to actually saw something entirely different from the other 3)

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There were some on here (notably DJ) who didn't like his tape. I hope that they are correct and he busts in the NFL though I thought he was a very good college player with a good chance to continue that success at the next level.

I am one who has combed over his tape many times. I didn't like what I saw. That said I think if he becomes a bust it's because of his poor work ethic and attitude. Skill wise I think he could be at best a nice complimentary rusher. Think of a Sheard that shys from blockers. They have a very similar rush and body style to me.

Yes! I have heard Jarvis' work ethic is not good.

I think one of the biggest reasons that the FO liked Mingo so much is his work ethic and commitment to get better. This is the first thing that people who have been around him/coached him in the past say. And I think that this is part of the reason that the Browns felt so comfortable taking someone who didnt quite have the production numbers last year (not saying that his skill set itself didnt warrant a top 10 pick). People who have this work ethic and desire to get better rarely turn out to be busts, especially when that person is as athletically gifted as Mingo is.

Also a VERY underrated attribute of a good pass rusher is relentlessness. Mingo is by the far most relentless pass rusher in this draft and may arguably be the most relentless player overall. A relentless effort and motor to get to the QB is one of the most important attributes of a pass rusher. O lineman get tired throughout a game. I can already tell that Mingo will do a lot of damage late in games because he is so relentless and has such a high motor.

Cant wait.

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Also a VERY underrated attribute of a good pass rusher is relentlessness. Mingo is by the far most relentless pass rusher in this draft and may arguably be the most relentless player overall. A relentless effort and motor to get to the QB is one of the most important attributes of a pass rusher. O lineman get tired throughout a game. I can already tell that Mingo will do a lot of damage late in games because he is so relentless and has such a high motor.

Cant wait.

If I had to put together my perfect pass rusher with three attributes of any guy in the NFL.
Motor = Jared Allen Other than Von Miller I've never seen a more intense pass rusher.
Athleticism = JPP He is pound for pound the strongest most athletic pass rusher on the field. He will only continue to develop.
Instincts = JJ Watt He was asked to defend passing lanes, rush the passer and contain the QB simultaneously at LSU. With technique he will dominate.

To me Mingo has all three of these traits just as much as the men listed. He has the blue chip traits that are uncoachable. I think he could be the next truly great pass rusher in the NFL.

mac, a lot of hot air that tells us nothing that we did not already know.

Once again, I ask you to provide a link that says that our current FO made the trade to Pittsburgh because they didn't trust the scouting reports.

You can play around w/the words "myth" and "rumor" all you want. You immediately jumped on the FO and said it was BS that they were blaming the scouting staff.

One more time.........show us proof.

You can't. Because there isn't any. In fact, they vehemently denied that "myth."

Once again, you twist things due to your own hateful opinion of the FO and refuse to deal w/facts. You are shameless.

And to top it off.......the crazy dude says: Good reply, mac.

vers...it looks like I was right...you consider a rumor or myth to be a flat out untruth...which they are not. Not identifying a source does not mean what is written, is not true.

...vers...you can jump up and down...scream and demand...act like a child

, all you want...just because you don't agree with an answer.

Maybe that tactic worked for you on the other board and maybe it would work on some members of this board...but you have no authority to demand anything from me...and I find it absolutely hilarious that you would try that tactic on this board..

The answers you demand are below...try again.

Quote:

vers...you seem to be defining a "myth" and "rumor" as a flat out lie or untruth...which is not the definition of either word.

One definition of myth is...a half-truth...

You refer to "myth" as a "RUMOR" ...and again, you seem to imply that a rumor is a total untruth...but that is not the definition of the word.

rumor-
1: talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth

My take on the use of the word "myth" by Terry Pluto...the source didn't want his/her name associated with comment OR Pluto didn't know the source of this comment...
...."the new front office was using reports from the scouts of the Mike Holmgren/Tom Heckert regime -- and didn't trust the reports."

I did not consider the comment as being false...you seem to believe it was 100% false.

The first time I read the comment was in Pluto's article. Pluto had information and sources that he was not willing to identify, but he still felt it was necessary to print the comment I quoted above, without naming sources.

The part about the "top operative" denying the Pluto's report...we don't know who the "top operative" is, do we?
....I thought the source might be someone from the scouting department, since the comment was about the scouting reports.
....you seem to believe the "top operative" was Banner, Lombardi or Farmer. If it was one of these 3, why not allow Pluto to use your name as the source, knocking down the rumor?

Bottom line, there is room for readers to come to different conclusions...different opinions...concerning the anonymous comments in Pluto's article that have to do with scouting reports and top operatives. You are entitled to your opinion...BUT, so am I.

If you can bring facts to the discussion that identify the sources in question, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong. But, if you simply have a differing opinion of Pluto's story...so be it.

Terry Pluto's Talkin' ... about the Browns' draft rationale,

About the lower draft moves ...

May 04, 2013

1. One of the myths surrounding the trade of a fourth-rounder to Pittsburgh (for a third-rounder in 2014) and fifth-rounder to the Colts (for a fourth-rounder in 2014) is that the new front office was using reports from the scouts of the Mike Holmgren/Tom Heckert regime -- and didn't trust the reports. One top operative became angry when I mentioned that, telling me: "We had all the information we needed. We did our homework. The scouts were not an issue when we came to the trades. We just didn't like the players available."

2. A little history lesson. Joe Banner knew he was the team's CEO from training camp. General Manager Mike Lombardi knew he'd be coming to the Browns during the season. These guys had more time to prepare for the 2013 draft than former GMs Phil Savage (hired in 2005) or Heckert (2010) when they had their first Cleveland drafts. Both joined the team after the season.

3. The Browns had a player in the upper level of the fourth round -- not sure who it was -- that they considered a starter. Once that player was picked, they were open to trading the 2013 pick for a better one in 2014. The Steelers made the deal to take Syracuse safety Shamarko Thomas. The Browns considered Thomas to be a T.J. Ward hard-hitting strong safety, and that's not what they needed. They also were a bit worried because he has a history of concussions.

4. In the fifth round, they saw no one as a starter -- and believed it simply made sense to add two more picks for the 2014 draft -- giving them six in the first four rounds.

5. Most teams had a third- or fourth-round grade on safety Jamoris Slaughter, picked in the sixth. The reason he dropped was the Achilles injury in Notre Dame's third game of the season. At the very least, they consider him a very good special teams player with the potential to be more.

6. Seventh-rounder Garrett Gilkey has added 70 pounds since enrolling at Division II power Chadron State and at 320, is a good developmental player for the offensive line. Guys like this sometimes become useful guards in the NFL.

7. Like most teams, the Browns view the seventh round as a place to take a gamble, which is why they also picked defensive lineman Armonty Bryant. They know he sold marijuana to an undercover policeman while at East Central (Okla.) University, resulting in a three-game suspension. They say they have checked him out and he's worth the minimal risk because they think he has NFL physical skills as a 263-pound pass rusher.

web page

Actually, it looks like you can't admit you were wrong. You can't provide a link because there isn't one. The FO never said any such thing.

You have been exposed once again.

Mac...not to get involved in this Tit for Tat exchange but come on dawg...you actually just proved Vers' case not yours!

In that May 4th article you got points 1. 2. 3. explaining Vers' point of view.
1. There was a rumor n when confronted the FO didn't just deny it but got PO'd at the insinuation.
2. This was sort of substantiated by the fact that the FO unlike many others before had months to prepare so that it fit the claim of the FO not the RUMOR.
3. Pretty much explains the thought process behind the Trades...not anything close to - Uh Uh what do we do now PUNT. It was the fact they felt they were looking at a bunch of 6th n 7th rounders...Lets wait for the 6th n 7th round to deal with ST/Diamond in the rough guys. Lets get a value pick in 2014 instead bonus points is that its suppose to be a much stronger draft class.

All you got is the use of the word "MYTH" instead of "RUMOR" where possibly by Websters definitions put some validity in the rumor as a part truth when the word Myth was used in the article. But the contents used by the author oooozed RUMOR n just the miss use of a word...Bozo's never get the literal meaning wrong...lol

Don't continue...if you wish to not lose face at least BUNT n state Its a difference of opinion. But you continue to shoot for FACT which it is far from fact.

Ignorance as the catalyst for the Trade...Sorry I think not.

Good return in the Trade...I think so. Opinion??? ehhh pretty obvious...lets at least wait to see what we did with those picks as opposed to getting guys we really didn't want in 2013. Sort of a win without seeing who we pick...but at least see what we get in exchange for "NOTHING".

JMHO true but you actually convinced me of it being correct judgement on what happened not prove you point.

vers...something I find remarkable was Banner's explanation for making the trade with the Steelers...saying he prefers to trade within the division.

Many, many Browns fans and draft analysts thought Banner's comment was "odd" to say the least and contrary to the guidelines most NFL franchises follow...preferring "not to help" teams in the division.

Banner helped the Steelers get the guy (SS Shamarko Thomas) who is expected to eventually replace Troy Polamalu. Browns fans might get the chance to feel the logic of Banner's reasoning, twice a year for the next 10 yrs or so.

What makes Banner's move to help the Steelers even more bizarre, Banner claims he had several offers from other teams for our 4th round pick and he chose to make the deal with the Steelers.

Quote:

Banner revealed that the Browns had multiple offers for their fourth-round pick that were similar to the deal they made with the Steelers.

web page

When the fans and media began to question Banner's willingness to help the Steelers, he attempted to explain it away by pointing the Eagles traded McNabb to the Redskins, within the division.

Problem is, McNabb was at the end of his career...not a promising rookie with his career ahead of him.

My take on the trade...Banner and Lombardi had no plan in place once the guy they had on our draft board got scooped up by the Giants who traded up ahead of us, out maneuvering Banner for the pick.

...I think back at all the criticism Heckert got when he would trade up a few spots to get the guy he wanted. Fans thought Heckert was just wasting our draft picks for nothing.

...but, this could be a great example of why Heckert moved to trade up in some of those situations...he felt or had information that a team was looking to jump ahead of the Browns, to take the guy we were targeting.

IMO, obviously Banner and Lombardi didn't have a clue that the Giants could be targeting the guy on our draft board...stood pat, not attempting to move up...and the Giants took advantage of Banner and Lombardi inexperience.

Once the Giants took the guy Banner was targeting for our 4th round pick..Banner and Lombardi had no plan B for that pick.

Anyone believing there was no talent worthy of our 4th round pick, once the Giants took our front office was targeting...that is pure bunk.

The Browns had a need for a S...matter of fact they took a SS in the 6th round...and what did the Steelers do with the "favor" Banner gave them...they took a versatile SS out of Syracuse..a guy capable of playing SS or FS.

So the Browns had a need for a Safety in the 6th round, but had no need for higher rated Safety in the 4th round ?

The Browns also had a need for a OLine guy, choosing to pick one in the 7th round OT who is projected to be a OG...

...BUT, there was a versatile OLineman available in the 4th round, when Banner decided to help the Steelers find the potential replacement for Try Polamalu...he happened to be listed as the #1 Center in this draft but he also played OG and OT prior to playing Center his senior year...that guy was Barrett Jones out of Alabama...chosen two picks after Banner traded away our 4th round pick, helping the Steelers.

Banner likes to present himself as being the smartest guy in the room, but I'm not buying the BS he is attempting to sell. Banner and Lombardi were ill prepared and badly outmaneuvered in this draft and if they don't get their "stuff" together, the chances of them finishing off the 5 year rebuilding plan is in trouble.

Banner believes he has time...2 or 3 more years...to produce. He wants everyone to believe the Browns can afford to give up picks in the draft with the notion that he has the ability to make up for "a bad draft" by having the potential for a good draft, next year.

The problem with the "wait for next year" approach Banner is following...all the other teams in the AFC North are getting better and better with each draft.

Banner is a silver tongued devil, capable of spinning his way out every tough question. But Browns fans already know that about Banner...and his excuses for trading with the Steelers and not being prepared for alternative draft situations...I'm not buying it.

One of the most important keys to building a playoff caliber team is the ability of the front office to secure better talent than the other teams in our division.

This could have been a pivotal draft in the AFC North, with the Steelers growing older, the Ravens losing several players to free agency and retirement. It was an opportunity for the Browns to make up ground on the Steelers and Ravens...and the Browns front office failed to take advantage of the situation in our division...and actually helped the Steelers get better.

If this front office doesn't do a better job securing superior talent via the draft, the chances of producing a playoff caliber team are slim.

jmho...mac

Quote:

Quote:

Banner revealed that the Browns had multiple offers for their fourth-round pick that were similar to the deal they made with the Steelers.

web page

similar != better

To add fuel to your fire why didnt joe banner bid against baltimore for dumerville using are superior cash position they were umprepared or stupid by any account.

I actually think this is a pretty logical response. Not sure where the information is coming from that it was the Giants' selection that prompted the Browns to make the trade, but it is somewhat conceivable to think that whomever the Browns wanted in the 4th was no longer available, thus the reason for the deal. I didn't know/read an article saying there were multiple suitors for the 4th round pick offering a similar package until I read what you just provided. This makes the deal with the Steelers more mind boggling for me considering I never wanted to make any trade within the division. I don't like the move even more now. But it could work out in the end...it's obviously to early to tell with us not even able to see any reward until well after we pick next year.

I agree on the Heckert stuff too, mac. I didn't particularly like reading poster comments hating on giving up draft picks because Heckert wanted to get the guy HE wanted. I actually liked the approach. He just needed to be right on those players, and I think he was on most of the time. Same thing when people worried about Heckert drafting someone saying it was too early (going simply off of mock drafts from draft "analysts"). Again, more of the picks worked out that didn't. The "don't get cute" philosophy works.

That same philosophy could potentially work for this regime too. How many people thought it was a "reach" for Mingo at 6? .....tons of people, both fans of this board, and again, those draft "analysts". The regime liked him, didn't want to trade down, and got they guy THEY wanted. I got no problem with that.

Maybe because we already had Sheard, had signed Groves and Kruger, and had targeted Mingo in the (then) upcoming draft. We cannot sign every player.

Quote:

To add fuel to your fire why didnt joe banner bid against baltimore for dumerville using are superior cash position they were umprepared or stupid by any account.

Because no one saw the Dumerville fiasco coming and they already signed a enormous contract for Kruger at OLB. Plus they had Sheard who they apparently like, and had signed Quentin Groves for depth.

Sorry, but the hindsight argument.... "Why didn't they sign this guy, or that guy" doesn't really work.

how is this not unprepared ?

Quote:

how is this not unprepared ?

How can any team be "prepared" for an agent screwing up paperwork?

You're fishing and coming up with nothing but a dirty boot.

how is this not unprepared ?
this does not excuse him from driving up dumervilles price.
buy the way lets keep this debate friendly I am basically a nice guy

You don't go after players simply to drive up their price for another team.

What happens if you "win" the bidding, yet don't really have room for the player? Do you then rescind the offer? How long would that kind of tactic take to get around the players in the NFL? Who would trust you if you made an offer?

I don't like the fact that the Ravens got Dumervil, but we have to beat the teams we play, and they are going to have good players. The Ravens essentially lucked into Dumervil. I would rather have a plan that rely on hope that other teams might screw up and drop a player into our lap.

Some people blasted the front office for not signing Rolando McClain. How come he retired? Why didn't the Ravens see that coming?

The Ravens took advantage of the mistake by Dumervil's agent, and they made a mistake in signing McClain. Concerning Dumervil, they had an opportunity because they had been decimated in free agency and by old age. They got damn lucky that Dumervil became available. If he hadn't, then who knows what player might have been playing at OLB for them next year?

One other thing to consider ...... would Dumervil even have wanted to come here to fight for a job? He would have had to compete with the likes of Sheard, and Kruger, and Groves, and maybe even Mingo. Would that have been as appealing a prospect as going to a team with no one at all standing in his way?

One other thing to remember ...... Dumervil insisted on certain injury language in his contract that allows him to collect his money even if he is hurt and the Ravens are forced to cut him. That kind of struck me as "me first".

Anyway, the Ravens did get one heck of a player in Dumervil. They lucked into him. The Browns worked their plan. We'll see how it works out this coming year and beyond.

sorry dont agree
eg dumervill e + millner =mingo
I like my team better

buy the way I was wrong about mcclain+1 for you