Thinking It Through... Big Picture

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Pit, is that you? Really?

Good post. Fair post.

Yeah, it's me! LOL

And I wasn't actually saying that I agreed with the way they went about things especially, but saying that I did understand the logic behind it. Some seemed to indicate they were not prepared and had no clue what they were doing. Looking at it big picture, I feel my initial post shows the logic behind their moves at least to some extent.

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I really wanted Milliner over Mingo. I know that an edge rusher was our #1 priority going into this season, but we signed Kruger and have Sheard for the other side. I think Milliner is a better player than Mingo. I thought he would fill a bigger need.

I very much agree with you there! I believe Millner is more NFL ready. I feel he is a much more fundamentally sound player and is an every down player which was more deserving of a top 10 pick. I think there are more questions concerning fundamentals as it pertains to Mingo and I hope he lives up to the billing.

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With that said, I believe that Banner's philosophy is that you pick the best player in regards to long-term commitment. I understand that. I agree w/that. I just don't think Mingo is better than Milliner.

Agreed.

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I like our 3rd round pick. I know he is short. But, his hips are very fluid. His footwork is great. He has great hands. I like that pick, but understand why people may be wary.

There are questions around him being a complete CB, but once you get to the third round, most everyone has some questions. If they didn't, they wouldn't still be there in round 3. So I have a wait and see attitude regarding McFadden.

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I really like trading the 4th and 5th round picks for higher picks next year. I still can't believe that so many people are complaining about that one. I love how that little SOG Banner really tried to shove one up the Squeelers butts.

As I stated above, I think it was sound strategy. As of now I would say there are what this FO and coaching staff consider question marks surrounding how some of our players transition into the new schemes. As such, this gives us higher draft picks next year and the ability to trade up if need be, to address positions that we may end up needing, yet they are not now sure about.

I think people have been overly optimistic in regards to how seamless these transitions will go. More so on D. Just because a player has certain raw skills overall, does not mean they will transition smoothly to a new scheme. They now have additional ammo next year to address this situation as it arises IMO.

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I kinda like the gamble of taking Slaughter in the 6th. I would rather take a guy like that in the 6th, than just some guy who really doesn't have that much talent. If he doesn't come back from the injury.....oh well. If he does, it's a steal. Last year, my favorite pick in the draft was Winn, and he was a 6th rounder, too. Never understood why he slipped so far.

I probably favor this pick more than the others. In the sixth round, often your picks never even make the roster. In this case, we know the talent is there to be a major contributor if he can regain his health and stay healthy. It's hard to get that quality of athlete in this position of the draft.

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Not so sure about taking a guy who sold pot. I know nothing about him in regards to performance. Some say he is very good. Steve guy pimped him earlier. But, is there a chance he'll be in jail?

As long as he doesn't sell any to Josh Gordon we'll be okay.

At this stage it's all a gamble. I don't really try to nit pick seventh round picks that much. I mean they're one step away from being UDFA's. There are far more misses than hits at this juncture in the draft.

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The other guy. I have no idea.

That makes two of us.

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I think this guy has a plan. And Pit, if you have a plan and you stick w/it........it's going to work. Junior is gone. The years perpetual blow-ups are over.

Here I'm not so sure we agree. I'm not saying they don't have a plan. I'm not saying they won't stick to it. I believe that remains to be seen. What I do disagree with? Not everyone that has a plan and sticks to it succeeds. If the plan itself is flawed or not executed properly, the plan fails. So I believe the jury on that part remains to be seen.

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I'm getting carried away. Draft grade? I don't know. The players don't excite me all that much, but I do see the plan, for once. And that gives me hope!

I see the logic in what they did in this draft, but not so much a plan per say. Unless that plan was to make every "major investment" in your front seven. If that is the plan, they're doing a good job of it.

I do believe they have made upgrades in many areas without having to spend a lot and I like that. But after the Mingo pick, I still see them as putting all of their eggs in one basket. And I do believe Mingo is pretty raw for a #6 overall pick in a draft. But only time will tell in regards to that.

JMHO

way to go n get the Koombaya sing along started. Puff the magic dragon...

Even DJango got into it

ratsanplan still fighting. will answer your question Rastanplan after the draft next year

Good to see we got a plan in place. Excellent coaching staff n 27 + around 20 rookies (counting UDFA) all Browns based not knowing any other team. 47 into camp. We never had that before...

Just a happy place to be in finally a team getting past that Expansion stage n becoming competitive.

JMHO

I still say it's a re-build!

LOL

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I keep on reading that next draft is going to be so much better in the middle rounds, and people are very sure of that, while to me the talent level of drafts after the 2nd round are more or less the same.

Can someone give me an example of a Safety and a Full Back, for example, that will be available next year in the middle rounds, and why are they so much better then this years players?

A link of a credible source stating that next year middle rounds are going to be packed with good players would also be excellent.

I don't know about the quality of the draft other than what I have read. This was by most accounts a poor draft other than line and pretty deep in decent corners.

As for links, you can find the info as easily as I so you can do a little research if you wish. I am not going to start searching around because you want me to....you do it, you can find it.

We drafted a safety from ND....a pretty good player just off injury. Evidently we checked him out and he passed whatever test the team has in such cases, so basically you are moaning about a worthless position like fullback.

Screw fullbacks. They are about as useful as a steering wheel on a mule. Basically it is a blocking position these days. If you want to waste one of you offensive weapons on a guy who blocks 95% of the time, put a real blocker back there.

Me, I would rather have 1 back and 4 guys who can move down field to make plays.

Phil Taylor would make a decent fullback. I'll bet you could give him the ball and he would gain the tough yard. I'll bet he could clear out a seam for the back.

Why waste a draft choice on a fullback when you have maybe 15 players already on the team who could play it?

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I still say it's a re-build! LOL

Well don't you have to have something BUILT for it to be a Re-Build...

I win

lol

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I still say it's a re-build! LOL

Well don't you have to have something BUILT for it to be a Re-Build...

I win

lol

This is like a group of firefighters bragging that while your house completely burned down, they saved your basement.

Flynn was just signed as a FA. Seattle although just signing Flynn must have felt that it was still worth taking Russell in case Flynn didn't pan out. The result was that Flynn was not given the job like Weeden. Russell beat him out.

The Browns are not in a desperate position as well. They could have very easily taken a chance on any of the guys in the fourth round. None would have been pressed to start right away. That is the whole point.

The Eagles had Vick and Foles yet they recognized that getting Barkley was a value in the fourth round.

The Steelers took Jones in the fourth. Oakland just signed
Flynn and saw fit to take a chance on Wilson. Both were fourth rounders.

Nobody bats a 1000 in the draft that is not the point.

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"I don't think this FO is putting all of its eggs in one basket. I simply don't feel they wished to take a gamble on the QB position with a draft pick that has just as many if not more questions surrounding them than Weeden has."

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Weeden was a first round selection. A developmental quarterback at 29. Jason Campbell also a first rounder now 31 has been given multiple chances to win a starters job. He has yet been able to hold that position.

Hard to believe that none of the four guys taken in the fourth round were not worth the risk of a fourth round selection when you have Weeden and Campbell as your main guys.

Given who you have on the roster. Yes, they failed if any of those quarterbacks become better than Weeden and Campbell. Their job is to upgrade the talent on the team.

No matter how you feel about Weeden clearly he is a risk because of his performance.

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I can understand trading the fourth and fifth rounder for next years 3 and 4th rounders as insurance to have ammo to move up if Weeden totally bombs this year.

That may prove to be a good strategy. I am sure that was their thought process.

Nassib, Barkley, Jones, or Wilson were considered by most to be second, third or fourth round prospects. If one of them becomes great, then yes, they failed to recognize talent at the most important position on the field when they clearly have not solved that position on the team. No matter if Weeden succeeds or fails.

The proof is in the pudding. Anyone, any where, any way for any reason can grade this draft from A+ toF-. Based on past performance in college ball, combine scores, college talent showcase games, chicken bones or Ouija boards, any interpretation is possible.

I'll see,"I love this pick," to "WTF were they thinking?" from now until the 17th week of next season. Then and only then will ANYONE be fully qualified to grade this draft. Everything prior to that is egoist breast beating and puffed up feelings of grandeur and expertise by arm chair QB's.

The proof is in the pudding. Last years draft? WTF were they thinking with Weeden?

That said, I reserve judgement until January of 2014.

Thank you!

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Nobody bats a 1000 in the draft that is not the point.

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Nassib, Barkley, Jones, or Wilson were considered by most to be second, third or fourth round prospects. If one of them becomes great, then yes, they failed to recognize talent at the most important position on the field when they clearly have not solved that position on the team. No matter if Weeden succeeds or fails.

Batting 1000 seems to be the only point you're trying to make here reading these two quotes.

You don't answer a gamble (Weeden), with another mid round gamble. You find an answer.

I guess you must feel somehow that teams find the answer to the franchise QB position in the mid rounds every time one just so happens to be selected there?

The odds are very low. Just look at the starters in this league and where they were selected and do the math on the averages there.

It just looks to me you want to hedge your bet to hang someone. Actually, it's obvious. So carry on........

Just want to make sure I understand.

If you are the decision maker in evaluating the talent in the draft are you not accountable for your decisions?

The Browns needed a safety. They traded with the Steelers. The Steelers selected a safety. If the guy becomes a solid player and the player the Browns take with that trade bombs is that acceptable to you? If Jarvis Jones proves to be way better than Mingo is that ok by you? What if Milliner becomes the next Revis and Mingo turns out like Vernon Gholston?

GM's are supposed to held accountable for the decisions they make. Holmgren blew the Griffin deal. Is not ok by me when you can not find a quarterback to lead your team.

There is difference in taking a shot at a guy in the mid rounds. Your exposure is not as great. You are not tying up big dollars. If you draft a QB say in the fourth and your starter Weeden does well are you hurt? If you develop a guy like Nassib or Landry Jones and at some point they seem ready or play well in a relief of injury you then have options. That is why teams like the Giants, Steelers, Eagles, and Oakland drafted those guys.

If Banners decision pays off and Weeden plays great or they parlay the traded picks into a trade for a quarterback that becomes a true franchise quarterback then he should be applauded.

If you come in and say "we will build the team through the draft". Then you need to be right with your decisions. The higher the pick the higher the percentage of accountability. You take a shot at a guy in the fourth round your odds are less than 50% chance of success but you may score big with much less risk. Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Brett Farve just to name a few turned out ok.

I want to reiterate:

You, and others, may think that the Browns need a Safety. Maybe the Browns, and Horton, are not so sure of that. Maybe they like what they have seen out of some of the young players we have in the secondary? Maybe they feel that those kids are better than what we would have found in the 4th/5th rounds? They took a flyer on a very talented, though injured, Safety in the 6th round. Couldn't it be possible that the team feels that the kids they have deserve a year in this defense to prove themselves?

This Browns team is different from most crap teams that bring in completely new front offices and coaching staffs. This team has a lot of young, and untested talent. There are some promising kids on this roster, but the coaches need to see what we have with them. Maybe the "experts" feel that FS was a dire need, but maybe the defensive coaches want to see what Gipson, Hagg, and maybe Basemosi can do before they go out and add more pieces to the puzzle? Isn't that possible? In fact, isn't that more likely than "The Browns just decided to abdicate their role in building the team this year, and have decided not to pick players just because they were not prepared, or didn't like anyone in this draft? Isn't it likely that they just didn't like players in this draft, in the 4th/5th rounds, more than the youngsters they already have, and who they already have to evaluate within their systems?

Of course their approach may be "let's see what we have."

Ultimately, you will have to answer for the decisions made good, bad or ugly.

I may look at this team differently than most fans, but I am fine with a new brain trust coming in and taking a measured approach to the team and its makeup.

I know that there is damn near no way that this team jumps from 4 straight years of sub par performance to Super Bowl contender. There almost certainly has to be a stepping stone season.

That said, I think this year could be that stepping stone. I like what they have done in free agency, In fact, I love a lot of what they have done. The rebuilt a 4-3 team into a 3-4 team. In one off-season. That's impressive. We might have the best LB corps in the AFCN right now. Yeah, that's a big statement, but looking at who we have ..... with Sheard, Kruger, Groves, Mingo, DQ, Robertson, Fort, Carder, and JMJ all at LB ....... I see depth that other teams might kill for. I look at our DL, with Bryant and Bryant, Taylor, Rubin, Winn, Hughes, and Kitchen. I love that depth all along the DL. I think that we're going to have a great front 7. This year. Plus, we'll get better as some of these younger players gain experience.

Man, there is a lot fo be excited about, especially on defense.

People are worried about the secondary .... but we dumped Sheldon Brown, and added Owens, and Barnes ... and McFadden. That's an upgrade to me, especially with an improved pass rush.

At Safety, I like the idea of developing kids like Gipson, and Bademosi, and Hagg. Again, with an improved pass rush, these guys will have reduced exposure, and a greater chance to succeed. We also added a nice player in Slaughter,although he does have to come back from a fairly serious injury.

This defense has a chance at becoming something special. It may not happen all this year, and yes, we might still have to replace a player here or there because they just don't become what we need them to become. However, we have the chance to see what they can become, and I like that.

On offense, we have a similar opportunity to see what we have in place. We added some interesting pieces, but still probably have some holes. However, we have some young players that we need to find out about. I am OK with taking this year to see what we have, within this offense and this defense. We can try to project players based on what they showed last year, but this is a totally new system. We have some players whose potentials really excite me. Not all will pan out, and some might fail spectacularly, but I would rather take this year and find out for sure what we have.

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Just want to make sure I understand.

If you are the decision maker in evaluating the talent in the draft are you not accountable for your decisions?

Yes you are. Problem being, once again, NO FO bats 1000. Yet you keep claiming this FO should.

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The Browns needed a safety. They traded with the Steelers. The Steelers selected a safety. If the guy becomes a solid player and the player the Browns take with that trade bombs is that acceptable to you?

You do understand the difference in a SS and a FS, right? We needed a totally different S than the one they drafted. And yes, since his S position wasn't a position WE needed, I'll be fine with that.

Since we will get a higher pick where better talent should be available next year, we actually gained, not lost here.

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If Jarvis Jones proves to be way better than Mingo is that ok by you? What if Milliner becomes the next Revis and Mingo turns out like Vernon Gholston?

Now you have completely changed the subject. You spoke ONLY of the QB position. Now you're breaking down the other picks. Big difference.

I didn't agree with the Mingo pick. I think he's much to much of a project to select at #6. I would have preferred Millner but I'm in a wait and see mode. You were talking semantics about a QB who wasn't selected. As though they should have selected some second tier hope their questions surrounding them could somehow be overcome and they would need a crystal ball or a lot of luck to succeed there. If you wish to discuss the picks they did make, that's a separate issue.

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GM's are supposed to held accountable for the decisions they make. Holmgren blew the Griffin deal. Is not ok by me when you can not find a quarterback to lead your team.

Really? Let's be honest here, had Griffin been pinned in a WCO, would he have been as successful? The fact is, they drafted a QB who simply didn't fit the O they were running. Shanahan adjusted his system to suit RG3. He made the most out of his talents and built an O to take advantage of his talents which was a great deal of help in the success there.

In our case, we did not do that at all.

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There is difference in taking a shot at a guy in the mid rounds. Your exposure is not as great. You are not tying up big dollars. If you draft a QB say in the fourth and your starter Weeden does well are you hurt? If you develop a guy like Nassib or Landry Jones and at some point they seem ready or play well in a relief of injury you then have options. That is why teams like the Giants, Steelers, Eagles, and Oakland drafted those guys.

So you're saying that with our huge question mark at QB, drafting one of these guys is a better short term solution to the b-up QB position than signing a proven veteran in Campbell? They did address the QB position. Just not the way you like. I see us drafting a QB in a big way when they address it. Much like your first suggestion in the "RG3" way.

Which one do you prefer? A mid rounder with a lot of questions this year? Or a much better and more talented, higher rated QB prospect in round 1 possibly next year? You can't have it both ways.

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If Banners decision pays off and Weeden plays great or they parlay the traded picks into a trade for a quarterback that becomes a true franchise quarterback then he should be applauded.

Which I think is the plan.

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If you come in and say "we will build the team through the draft". Then you need to be right with your decisions. The higher the pick the higher the percentage of accountability. You take a shot at a guy in the fourth round your odds are less than 50% chance of success but you may score big with much less risk. Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Brett Farve just to name a few turned out ok.

And for the handful you mentioned, I could list probably hundreds who didn't. I don't like those odds. Maybe you should wait to see how right or wrong you are before you cast stones? Just an idea......

Maybe you should wait to see how right or wrong you are before you cast stones? Just an idea......
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"If Banners decision pays off and Weeden plays great or they parlay the traded picks into a trade for a quarterback that becomes a true franchise quarterback then he should be applauded."

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Look as stated there are many ways to approach the job. Just be right.

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Clearly they thought no quarterback in this draft was worthy. Time will tell.

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Kevin Kolb, Matt Cassel, Matt Shaub were later round picks that flashed when they stepped in because of injury. They were later traded as assets and brought high draft picks.

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Which one do you prefer? A mid rounder with a lot of questions this year? Or a much better and more talented, higher rated QB prospect in round 1 possibly next year? You can't have it both ways.

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Bear in mind the cost. when you miss on a fourth rounder there is not much pain. When you miss on a first rounder (Like Tim Couch, or even Weeden, first round does not come with a guarantee) it is not just financial. It costs you years.

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Some Like Holmgren believe you should draft a developmental guy every year.
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" Maybe you should wait to see how right or wrong you are before you cast stones?"

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This is an open forum of opinion. Please spare me the lecture.

Very good points made

I fear to make this a QB thread...gosh knows we need one

But to add to your points.
1. There was not a QB talent in this draft that was going to logically make an impact without getting a year or two of tutoring. Nothing of course is 100% sure I just don't see any Wilson types for the later rounds. He had a lot of perfections just his size dropped him...possibly Barkley is the only one I see that could step in win a spot or for injury n turn out a contributor for a team as a rookie.

2. So any pick we would have made pretty much would not serve as a contributor if Weeden fails. I think that status is there for Campbell.

3. Here is the kicker for me. Any of these late round picks developmental QBs would have who released? Lewis. It is possible that our guys, Chud n Norv liked what they see from Lewis better than any of these developmental QBs that were available. We are not flies on the wall to know...we can only PRESUME...ASSUME from the actions taken by our Coaches. For me...point blank its like they were telling us - Hey, we like Lewis as a Prospect far more than any of the developmental QBs out there.

JMHO

I believe in his radio show interviews yesterday ,ML said they didn't see the value of drafting one of the QB's although they did aquire UDFA QB in Ryan Aplin, QB, Arkansas State.

Once again, do you see a prospect you would have drafted? I mean who do you feel they should have selected and why?

I didn't see anybody there worth the gamble. If we need a franchise QB, we'll need an answer, not a question mark.

I'd love to hear who you feel they should have selected, because for the life of me I didn't see anyone I would have picked.

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This is an open forum of opinion. Please spare me the lecture.

Yours hasn't been an opinion. Yours is saying if they missed on any pick at QB this draft, they are bad.

Then can you do us a favor and name one FO in the NFL who bats 1000 on their drafts? That never misses or overlooks someone?

Of course it's impossible to do because every FO in the NFL does.

It's nice if you have something to base your opinion on, but in this case there isn't anything there......

Pit: bonefish has been saying we need a qb for years. He is obsessed w/it. He's a pretty good poster and is an intelligent guy.

I do think he is getting carried away, simply because I think all the qbs in this draft have as many--or more--question marks than Weeden does. I am glad we didn't draft a qb. But, the guy has been consistent that we won't win until we settle the qb position.

I am just posting this so you see where he is coming from. He's not really a jerk or anything.

Vers, I agree and also think that Weeden is going to look totally different this year in comparison to last year. He will have one year experience, be more ready for the speed of the game, know his surrounding players better and be playing in a offense that is much more suited than what Shurmur dealt him.

His young surrounding players will also have more experience this year, this offense was so lost last year that I don't think any player on offense knew what they were doing or supposed to do.

Bess is going to be a big help for Weeden and just a nice target.

I thought Weeden did a good job last year as a rookie playing with a bunch of young players and rookies. Weeden did not really have any experienced players help him out any.

.

I watch some college games not alot. If there is guy who has attracted my attention I try to catch his games. I was nuts over Luck the first time I saw him as a junior.

Since the Browns were out of the playoffs early and Weeden did not look like the answer to me I started scouting quarterbacks.

The guy I liked the most and posted about very early was Tyler Wilson.

His numbers fell off his senior year so I knew he would be available. I thought he would be a steel in the third.

The Petrino scandal along with a horrible OL and the loss of key receivers left him as meat his senior year. Never have a seen a tougher kid. He took a pounding. Hung in there and delivered the ball. He was rushed heavy and receivers dropped passes. He had to change his steps to from under center ( Gruden pointed it out in his QB camp) to get back quickly to try and create space.

He never made excuses. He led his team. He has a quick live arm. He is accurate and he can move in the pocket and run when needed.

NFL former Raven and Brown's scout (Daniel Jeremiah) now on NFL network said he was the toughest prospect he ever scouted.

Pull up his tapes. Watch him with Gruden. Here is a highlight tape. I am not big on highlight tapes rather watch games.

http://www.youtube.com/v/FwP77akozPs

http://www.youtube.com/v/iHIiDgGDGOo
South Carolina game

"Yours hasn't been an opinion. Yours is saying if they missed on any pick at QB this draft, they are bad. "
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It is very clearly my opinion.

I have stated clearly that I understand they are taking a wait and see approach. And if it works out they should be applauded.

Obviously, each progressing round the odds go down in selecting players to make it in the NFL. However, history has shown the first round is no guarantee. In addition players slip through "the process".

Jim Harbaugh wanted Kaepernick from the get go even though he had Alex Smith who was performing at a high level. Why? Because he recognized the talent.

I want the Browns front office to have vision like that.

For crying out loud we had the first pick in the draft and whiffed on Tim Couch. Then when we had the ammo to get Griffin we lacked the vision to get it done.

Washington made it happen. I really don't want to here the excuses about the WCO etc. etc. When you see that kind of talent and it there for the taking you get him. You build around that talent. Washington was in the same place as the Browns when that draft started. Where are they now? They made the playoffs. The town and the team are excited about their future. They are set for the next 10 to 12 years at quarterback. Where are the Browns? Oh yes, we are still trying to evaluate a 30 year old quarterback to see if he will develop.
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It is quite clear Banner thinks he is the smartest guy in the room.

I really hope he is. I want him very badly to be the best FO guy in the NFL. His current strategy is clear as gin.

I still maintain that if he misses on bringing a franchise quarterback to Cleveland I want his head boiled in lye.

Wilson grew on me - I did think as bad as the draft was for a top 50 pick on a QB...I did think there were Mid-Late round steals available.

1. we did not have a plethra of picks.

2. a developmental QB would be for a possible fix a couple of years down the road - no impact whatsoever for 2013. Of course possibly a similar occurrence of 2010 n Colt with #1 n #2 QBs go down n be thrown into service.

3. again possibly we actually are impressed with Lewis for that #3 guy. I was surprised we didn't trade him to the Eagles

4 - as bad as this draft was in QBs - possibly the timing is so right - We will have a better bead on Weeden to continue with him or look somewhere else. The 2014 QB class is to be that much better n don't know what Junior or Senior QBs will jump out to the forefront from nowhere. And we got 9 picks from that draft...so far

As for Weeden. I'm not going to get into a debate...just state this observation.

I really do not think he n some others on our team - Believed in our Offense last season. There were some dissension mumbling here n there that ties into this "PURE SPECULATION" on my part.

I am almost certain that Weeden already believes in this offense.

I won't attest to great or bust or anything like that...I am almost certain about the Weeden believing in the offense...To predict the results in this different attitude I cannot I will assume that Weeden will FEEL much more COMFORTABLE which for a QB can be the difference needed.

JMHO

Well much like you, I'm not sold on Banner. I'm at the point, with one failing system after another, I want to see results. I'm not predicting failure nor am I predicting success, I just want results. So we're very much alike in that regard.

And I do understand your frustration. God knows I think we all feel it on some level. However, you mention RG3 in your post and this FO was not responsible fore that. I also think most everybody and their brother knew Luck was the best prospect to come along for a very long time.

And while Tyler Wilson may or may not end up being a great NFL QB, I think the jury is far from out there. You must admit that throwing away Weeden after one season for a QB with as many or more question marks may not be a sound way to move forward.

It seems just a bit confusing to me how on one hand you speak of RG3 and Luck, then go on to speak about Tyler Wilson. These comparisons are day and night. The first two were very good bets and the third is a much higher risk.

I guess we just see this differently. When they do address the QB position if need be, I would much rather see them looking at a guy who has a very high chance of success. We need a lot of help still on this team. I would much rather see the solution drafted rather than a project drafted.

We've seen Frye, Colt and this angle used before. I for one have seen enough of it. I do know other FO's have whiffed on the QB position. I know that as a whole it's very frustrating. But I'm not going to try to pile on this FO for the mistakes of previous regimes.

My question is..... If they do need to and do select a QB next year high in the draft and both he and Wilson turn out to be good QB's, will you still feel they didn't address the position properly?

Thx Verse. We may not always agree but I respect your opinion and always check out what you have to say. Same goes for EO.

" I also think most everybody and their brother knew Luck was the best prospect to come along for a very long time."
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Just for the record when I saw Luck for the first time when he was a junior I had never heard of or seen him before.

I called fellow Browns fan and told him I just seen the best college quarterback I had ever seen.
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"The first two were very good bets and the third is a much higher risk. "
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Keep in mind risk /reward. When you pick a guy in the fourth it is not a big deal if he bombs. It is when the pick is a first rounder both in money and time.

In my opinion Wilson was well worth a fourth rounder.

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You have little control over the draft. When you pick? Who is there? That is why when the stars align like when Griffin was there you have to act. I know Holmgren was the man at fault.

For a guy with his experience and the pure fact that he stated that "the most important decision we will make will be a quarterback". That wound will not heal.
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Banner may prove to be right. He may already be looking at someone next year and made the moves this year to set up a move next year. Given where we are now I hope he is right.

Just for the record there is a guy I like. David Fales of San Jose State.
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"My question is..... If they do need to and do select a QB next year high in the draft and both he and Wilson turn out to be good QB's, will you still feel they didn't address the position properly? "
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That is a loaded question. It depends on the level of success. The other factors are time and money.

If you have Tyler Wilson now with the salary of a fourth rounder you are way ahead. Most players need some time especially quarterbacks, so Wilson would be a year ahead in development at a low cost. Allowing management more options within cap space. He may succeed. He may not.

If Banner lands a quarterback next year (and I believe Weeden will make that decision a must). He needs to hit a home run. Let's say for grins the Browns win 8 games. They will most likely have to trade up to get "their man" whoever that may be. What will be the cost in picks?

Certainly there is no guarantee of success even though the percentages are higher, the higher the pick. First rounders make more dough. Although the new CBA makes the salary structure more sane. Bradford being the last of mega rookie contracts.

But if Banner lands a guy on par with the top quarterbacks I will not fault his strategy. However, his other selections in this years draft specifically Mingo and McFadden need to play well. Mingo needs to prove worthy of the sixth pick in the draft.

I am way past first round failures. That should be inexcusable with the tools available to today's GM's.

I agree pretty much with everything you posted. Sometimes once it's talked through, people find they're not so far apart.

I know we really did need a CB in round 3 and I'm not as sold on any of the mid round QB's that were available in this years draft as you were. So that's really the only difference there.

I agree with you about Mingo and McFadden. Especially Mingo. I'm with you, there are too many tools available and we had enough needs at different positions for Mingo to fail and anyone excuse it.

And next year is a loaded question. We have no idea where we will be drafting and/or what it may cost us to move up depending on where we are slotted.

I guess it will just have to all play out to know which was the better option. I would have had no problem with a mid round QB pick if they actually saw an answer there. I'd say they must have saw more value at the CB position there than at QB.

We certainly had a dire need at the CB position immediately. So I won't actually fault the pick until I see how things unfold.

Fair enough. Good exchange

Quote:

I'm not predicting failure nor am I predicting success, I just want results.

We have results every Sunday during the season

...just maybe not the kind we want.

One draft doesn't tell much, but as of this point, I like very much the way Banner is proceeding. I've liked what he has had to say, I agree with the vast majority of the moves in FA, including moving away from Dawson even though I really like the guy....OK...I might not agree with that one, but I do understand why we did it.

I also think we did a good job in the draft, As usual you never agree with all of the picks, but once you step back you see it filled some needs and added better choices next year. I also have some hope that possibly a few of the UDFA guys might step in and make the squad.

On paper, I like it all, but as you said, results(of a positive nature) would be nice to see next fall.

I am not going to put a number on wins and losses, but if we see a D getting after the ball and being able to stop teams on 3rd down a decent number of times, if we see a O that moves the ball and starts scoring TD's more frequently, we'll know progress has been made, no matter the record.

Wins are the result of being able to do the things mentioned earlier. If we do that, wins will shake out, and if we start doing that, it builds in to a winning attitude. Then you can start stealing some games you probably should have lost because you have the winners edge.

bonefish...if Weeden fails we will be picking very early. 8-8 I know you didn't put out as a prediction. But I don't see how that would be possible n Weeden fail. Its either he fails n we got a very early pick...or he doesn't n we are in the middle of the pack possibly a surprise team for post season. Assuming some Jrs. come out - there might be 3 top 5 QBs available as opposed to one first rounder in 2013.

I'd rather have Weeden succeed of course n will worry about the worse only when it is a reality. No reason to worry about that now. Way I do it n don't expect others to follow my way. I will say one thing. Heckert Holmgren did this REGIME a big favor. I mean if I had to hand pick a None RG3/Luck QB - Weeden would be the guy! As bad as Weeden was for their system - He's perfect for our current system. I find that very weird but so true...maybe we are finally blessed???

JMHO n Hopes

Next year could go in any direction black, white or grey. Plenty of factors involved to determine the final outcome. Weeden is a part.

The Browns record next year? Who knows?

That is part of the problem. If you look at the careers of Flacco and Matt Ryan you see a pattern of development.

That is a big problem when you are trying to develop a guy who comes into the league at 29.

I am unsure how you can say that Weeden will either fail big or succeed big. He should develop and improve from last year. Maybe he improves some but not alot.

I know you and many others buy into the new system and how it suites Weeden.
I don't buy it.

When Donavan McNabb came into the league. He was a big strong athlete. Who had a big arm and could run. He played in the WCO. That did not stop him from throwing downfield.

The problems displayed by Weeden are more related to defensive recognition and timing. Knowing who to throw the ball too and when.

Yes, he may play more from the shotgun. Yes, he should improve because he is in his second year and he should know more about defenses.

I can see him being what I have always thought he would be - mediocre.

Where will that lead when you have a decent defense how about 8-8 ? Forever.

Again in lieu of making this another QB thread...won't be my long winded self.

Big expectations of Weeden = DA's production in this system.

JMHO

Do you think that it mattered some that Winslow and Edwards had great seasons or was it all DA in Chud's system?

If Weeden equals DA then adios amigo. Not interested in a one year wonder.

If he sustains what DA did that year, nothing wrong with that.

Seeing as how Winslow and Edwards have done little since that season, I'd say the answer is clear.

Neither did anything great but run the routes of the SYSTEM...there was so much separation for those two that season. That we forced team into zone giving up that underneath stuff where DA just didn't have. But early on that vertical stretch...there were no tight windows n great plays by either...just a lot of catch n runs. BE did have that good extension on the Sidelines that was exceptional but the vertical stretch stuff was system. I see more potential from Gordon than BE at this stage - Cameron who knows - what I do know he won't be in the training room during the week but out on the field learning the game plan. Trent 2013 is more talented than 30 year old Lewis. Little n now Bess for the JJ n who knows the other big kid from FA healing? The weapons are there if Weeden can be comfortable in the system which means so many of the negatives evaporating from last season. I see him to be "POSSIBLY" (we will find out if he can make the progress or is a bust???) better than DA cause when teams over play the Vertical game Weeden is much more accurate on the underneath routes.

You keep picturing Weeden struggling with the environment set up last year n that is who he is. Comfort is a big part of football. Just about every negative is relieved via COMFORT of the new system. Again all talk until we see it on the field. I look at the positive that Can very well be achieved...You look at the Negatives not changing at all - in our Assements. Won't claim my view is more likely...Even though it is

lol

We'll see soon enough.
JMHO

Quote:

Do you think that it mattered some that Winslow and Edwards had great seasons or was it all DA in Chud's system?

If Weeden equals DA then adios amigo. Not interested in a one year wonder.

I assume that you mean that you don't want Weeden to "equal" DA in having only one good season?

DA's season as our starter was one of the best as far as throwing TD passes. Only Brian Sipe had ever thrown more in a single Browns season. I would take that for Weeden's 2nd season.

DA could not sustain any type of performance after one season.

I want to win and win consistently and then win a championship. If Weeden can accomplish that: then I will forever love him.

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I had DVR'd the Gruden camp with Tyler Wilson and just now watched it.

In my mind Wilson would have been a steel in the third. Here is prediction I am willing to make:

Tyler Wilson will be the best quarterback in Oakland. If given a equal shot ( I do not see a reason why not). He will beat out Matt Flynn and Pryor.

He will prove to be a very good quarterback.

What NFL traits do you see when you look at Wilson?

He looks to me like an OK WCO type QB if all he has to do is throw mainly shorter routes, but I am not impressed at all with his ability to go down the field. He is a shorter QB, and has the dreaded small hands. He's not really a scrambler, though he can move in the pocket. His footwork is suspect, at best though.

He is a solid character kid, and is a strong leader on the field. I do like his short field accuracy.

Overall though, I just don't see anything approaching sure NFL ability. He might have a more clear route to a starting shot, but like Colt McCoy, I just don't see the ability to load a team on his shoulders and lead then beyond their abilities. I think that his upside is an Alex Smith type, where he can be effective if he has everything around him, but will struggle unless he has every piece in place.

Time will tell.

I see no limits in his game. He could run any offense. First he is leader. Second he is tough as nails. Those traits are not gimmies. He has a good live arm. He is accurate. He can run when needed. He moves well in the pocket to create. He can throw from multiple arm slots. He throws well on the run. He can work in chaos. He can make any required throw.

He fell into some bad habits his senior year. Trying to do to much and trying to survive under extreme pressure from a horrible O-line.

If things had not fallen apart at Arkansas his senior year he would have been a first round pick. He is every bit as good as Christian Ponder.

We shall see. Maybe I am all wet.

I don't think that a few bad habits would take a guy from round 1 to round 4. Heck, from your description, he seems like a guy who teams should have been falling all over themselves to trade back into the late 1st to grab. He sure should have gone well before the 4th round, even with an off .

I just don't see top end talent there. I see, at best, a backup/starter who is perpetually under threat of being replaced. I think that his arm will limit him in the NFL, plus he developed bad habits. His footworks breaks down badly, and I don't know how many coaches want to rebuild a QB from the ground up.

For the record, I thought that Ponder was overdrafted as well.

j/c

This kinda turned into a QB thread (what thread doesn't?) so I'll give my reason for not being too worried about the QB play this year.

A lot of us have talked about the reason for Weeden possibly finding success being that he will run an offense with routes that attack areas of the field that he is more comfortable with.

I differ a bit, because I think that he is more likely to succeed in this offense because concepts will be simpler.

The WCO has terminology that is ridiculously unwieldy, Coryell's system is better, and the Erhardt-Perkins the best. We'll be running the Coryell primarily, but I won't be surprised if we incorporate better, simpler communication systems, especially in light of Chud's work with Newton.

Other people an explain this better than I can, so I have a few links at the bottom if anyone is interested in reading it.

My reason for feeling more confident is basically one play from last year though.

Against Washington, we were having a dismal second half. On this play, there were problems communicating the play from the sideline to Weeden, a disturbingly common occurrence under Shurmur. Weeden, who was visibly angry at this point, decides to call his own play and run it quickly.

Result- Weeden to Benjamin TD.

Some guys are built to just GO. For Weeden, there was simply too much coaching last year. He's a guy that is going to succeed by being in a system built to minimize thinking and maximize action, and the coaching last year was a major failure.

Will he succeed? I have no idea, but I think he is being put in the best position to do so.

Links:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8849...-brady-patriots

http://smartfootball.com/offense/the-future-of-the-nfl-more-up-tempo-no-huddle

http://smartfootball.com/offense/combining-quick-passes-run-plays-and-screens-in-the-same-play

To me, the simpler the system, the better. Being able to get a play called and get to the line immediately, as opposed to spending half the clock trying to just get out of the huddle is vitally important. I like Turner's system, because once a receiver leans what 1-9 are, it's easy for him to stop thinking about what he's doing, and just do it. There is less confusion, and it's so much easier to keep the QB and receiver on the same page.

I often think that coaches try to get too clever for their own good, and call plays with such in depth and intricate play calls that it damn near takes a master's degree to understand them. It creates confusion, not for the opposing team, but for his own team. I hate seeing a play where the QB goes one place with the ball, and the receiver is somewhere else entirely. (as it seemed happened way too frequently last year) It seems to me that simpler calls help eliminate that kind of problem.

I still say watch out for Campbell. Until we busted his collar bone two years ago he was hitting his stride and lighting up the nfl with his arm. If Weeden fails, or Jason beats him in preseason, I wouldn't mind at all having him take over and lead this team. I have a feeling he just might be the one to lead us for a couple of years until we can get a young gun to develop. He has a good arm, fits turners O very well and he is battle tested.

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I still say watch out for Campbell. Until we busted his collar bone two years ago he was hitting his stride and lighting up the nfl with his arm. If Weeden fails, or Jason beats him in preseason, I wouldn't mind at all having him take over and lead this team. I have a feeling he just might be the one to lead us for a couple of years until we can get a young gun to develop. He has a good arm, fits turners O very well and he is battle tested.

1 question: Does it matter? seriously, to me it doesn't matter who the QB is as long as he does his job and does it well.. And of the two guys you mention, I'm not at all certain either is the long term answer.

What we need from either of them is to be the best "FILLER" they can be until we find THE guy.

And hey, if one of them emerges as THE guy,, Great. All the better.

The draft is a complicated process with many factors that steer the results. One thing that is has proven over and over again it is not an exact science. Sometimes things fall in weird ways and guys slip.

You can never tell how bad someone wants it. Leadership can not be taught. Guys like Brees and Russell Wilson have redefined height standards.

Once drafted no matter where the individual makes his own mark.

I remember last year when people wanted to hang Heckert for taking Hughes in the 3rd round.

I think that he turned out to be a pretty damn solid 3rd round investment. 34 tackles and 3 sacks as a backup DT is a pretty damn solid season for a rookie DT.

Of course, last year's draft probably had more people up in arms than any other I can remember off hand. Maybe Butch taking Jackson in the 3rd round of the 2001 draft, behind Gerard Warren and Quincy Morgan ... or us trading up to take Winslow.