With everyone arguing post-draft grades and the usual "you can't judge a draft a day after it" talk (which btw I think is BS...if you can talk for months about a draft proces OF COURSE you can evaluate a draft according to that process at least), saying that at least 2-3 years have to pass to judge any draft, well I thought might as well take a look at the 2010 Browns Draft, Heckert's first as Browns GM:
7) CB Haden
38) SS Ward
59) RB Hardesty
85) QB McCoy
92) G Lauvao
160) S Asante
177) WR Mitchell
186) DE Geathers
Here's the ENTIRE draft for reference:
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2010/tracker#dt...y-round-input:1I'll go pick by pick for a better evaluation of this class:
7) Haden
Looking at the rest of the 1st round only 2 guys come even close to Haden: JPP and FS E.Thomas and both were nowhere near the Top 10 when Heckert made that pick. LB McClain, RB Spiller and DT Alualu were picked right after Haden. 3 year starter and already considered a top 10 CB with upside to be elite. We saw how our DB looked like without him.
Grade: A
38) Ward
A lot of love-hate among Brownsfans probably still stemming from the "surprise" of Ward being picked so early. But again, take a long hard look at the rest of this round and tell me with a straight face that Ward isn't one of the best 5 players out of that round. The best pick was TE Gronk, after that Ward is in the mix along with G Beadles, DT L.Jospeh, LB Spikes, LB D.Washington and DE L.Houston...and some of those needed a year or two to get things going. Ward was a force from day 1. The Ravens picked LB Kindle, who was a complete bust, T.Mays, who many on here screamed for at the time of the pick, is bouncing around the league and never became a starter. The 3 picks after Ward? WR A.Benn, DE/OLB Misi, DT Troup...Who?
While incredibly there are still some Brownsfans that think Ward is overrated, he's pretty much considered a top 5 lock at SS by most national analysts after only 3 years. His coverage play has improved a lot and is AVG by now, which is good for the position, and he's always been a good to great player vs the run. This was a great pick and only injuries can stop him from remaining one of the best SS in the league. He could take it to the next level if Horton unleashed him in his scheme
Grade: A
58) RB Hardesty
Here's where most fans probably already wait for a BUST profile, but they'll be disappointed, as I'll argue that all things considered Hardesty was an AVG pick at this point in the draft. Hear me out. The 5 picks AFTER Hardesty to round out the 2nd round were WR G.Tate, OL Ducasse, LB Spikes, LB Angerer and OT C.Brown. Outside of Spikes, none of these guys are even decent starters in the league right now.
Now let's look at the RBs picked in this class, will we? Before Hardesty the RBs picked are: Spiller, R.Matthews and J.Best in round 1 and RB/WR D.McCLuster, T.Gerhart and B.Tate in round 2. You see a trend? Let's look at the guys picked after Hardesty: J.McKnight, A.Dixon, D.Karim, J.Dwyer, J.Starks and C.Scott. Hands down I take Hardesty over any RB picked after him. Even the 2nd rounders picked ahead of him are backups now, it turned out to be a weak class for RBs and Hardesty was the last one worth a crap, that's why Heckert probably traded up for him and no other RB was picked until the 4th round.
All that said, after 2 seasons this pick would have still been a big, fat D- or F, but last season, his FIRST healthy season after ANOTHER unlucky setback to his knee, he showed flashes of a solid no2 complimentary RB, thus, all things considered:
Grade: C
85) QB McCoy
I can't write novels to every selection, so let's keep this short: Colt failed as a starting QB option. At 85, at the end of round 3 in a VERY weak QB class that's not a shame at all. After 3 seasons he's considered an "ok" backup. My personal opinion is that he's a below AVG backup QB, but an above AVG no3 QB. The players picked after Colt? DE/OLB Teo-Nesheim, WR Decker, WR A.Roberts, QB A.Edwards, WR T.Price and ILB N.Bowman...some busts, some studs. He's in between I'd say
Grade: C-
92) G Lauvao
Liek Ward, Lauvao was considered an overdraft. Unlike Ward, he hasn't performed as well. Then again, he was picked almost 60 picks later, so let's look who was drafted after Lauvao to close out round 3: TE Moeaki, CB K.Thomas, TE J.Graham, CB Ghee, LB R.Curran and OG M.Johnson. Other OLs picked in the 4th after Lauvao: OT B.Campbell, C/G Hawley, J.Fox, J.McClendon. Backups at best.
Lauvao right now is a bottom 3rd starting OG in this league, who has improved a bit and still has some upside left after converting from OT in College. His "upside" is probably just becoming and AVG to above AVG OG in his prime, but that'd be pretty good value. Lauvao is also one of probably only a handful of players outside the first round of this draft class to have started EVERY game the past 2 years. Durability is a plus with him and considering the importance of a cohesive OL unit, this is a underappreciated positive. We're looking at a long NFL career either as a starter or at worst a valuable backup. Remember that OL take time, esp. guys converting from OT to G, John Greco is the best example for that. Similar players, same round drafted in. Let's not make the mistake the Rams made and give up on Lauvao yet. That said, 2013 is his make or break year as a starting G in this league.
Grade: B-/C+
160) S Asante
Is still in the league with the Colts, but will have to fight for a roster spot every year. Contributed some as a ST. HAs one INT and one forced fumble to his name, yay. He was a late 5th rounder. Look around the 5th round and you'll see a lot of guys like him or that are already out of the league and some occasional hits. He wasn't one of them, thus:
Grade: D
177) WR Mitchell
Like Asante, he's still around, in Dallas, but is pretty much a camp body there and a sure cut. He'll be out of the league for good in 6 months. Hated the pick at the time
Grade: F
186) DE C.Geathers
Geathers was a raw JR entry who needed time to develop as a 5T DE in a 3-4. We didn't give him the time because we switched scheme after 2010. He's in Philly now and has a good shot at playing there as a rotational DE. His development is trending up and I consider this to be a successful pick
Grade: C+
Overall: I think this draft was a success. Not many teams can say after 3 seasons that they have drafted two top 5-10 players at their positions. The middle rounds were AVG overall and the late rounders were 2 fails and 1 victim of our constant scheme turnover. Since the early picks are the most important ones and the fact that most teams are AVG after the top 50 picks, the overall Grade for me is: A-/B+
Let's hear your take...
If Colt McCoy hadn't been forced into a starting role due to our terrible QB situation, that is an A++++ pick.
Colt McCoy is one of the best back-up QB's in the league.
If we had been in position to make Colt McCoy a back-up/developmental QB, that pick would have been GREAT value at 85.
Unfortunately, that's not how it worked out for us.
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Colt McCoy is one of the best back-up QB's in the league.
I just skimmed over all NFL depth charts and counted over a dozen hands down better backup-QB options and another dozen (mostly unproven youngsters) where it's at least debatable. Guess we differ in opinion on that pick then...
Let's debate the draft class as a whole and please not turn this into an ex-Browns QB battle ground 
I can only give Ward a B, largely because he has not been able to stay healthy. He missed games last year and the year before. That's a concern. (10 games missed in 2 years)
I do think that he is a more well rounded Safety than many give him credit for. He is a decent zone cover guy, and is definitely a solid hitter/tackler. His ball skills could use some improvement, but that can apply to quite a few Safeties in the NFL.
I do think that he was hurt a great deal by youth on defense last year. He had to play Safety with 1 or 2 young OLB, a young FS, and a young CB at times with Skrine in the game in place of Haden. That's enough to drive any Safety insane. I think that Ward tried to cover up for others' mistakes ..... and often caught the blame for it.
Haden I would give a B+. He doesn't create enough turnover for me to give him an A ..... but he is a solid, plus level cover guy. If he learns to catch a few INT, he could easily move up to an A.
Hardesty has become a solid backup. C from me for him.
McCoy is gone. Most 3rd round QB become backups, and he is a backup. I would out that at expectation, or a C.
Lauvao gets a C+. He seems to be a better pass blocker than run blocker.He needs work, but many mid to late round Guards take time to develop. This is the year for him to take a step forward.
I agree with you on the rest. If you get production out of a 5th, 6th, and 7th round pick, then you have done well. I would give the draft a solid B.
Great stuff. I agree with most of it. I love TJ, but I'd probably slide that down to a B at this point. Maybe the talent is close to an A, but the production isn't quite there.
I love Haden. We saw first hand last year what the defense looked like with him, and without him, and it was painfully obvious. Awesome pick.
I don't know how to grade the Colt pick. Remember we drafted him and the talk was, well he's years away from seeing the field. Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace mid-season injuries later, he's on the field, and he held his own. The league caught up to him and exposed his weaknesses.
I don't wish injury upon anybody, but I'd be awful interested to see how he would do if he were given the reigns if Kaepernick were to go down. He wouldn't have any excuses any more, he's on arguably the deepest team in the league.
Totally agree with Hardesty at C. I thought he filled in well last year, and he's not a B because it was a 2nd round pick, and 2nd round pick RB's should be playing a lot more than he has.
Lauvao gets a B, just because he was able to come in and stabilize the spot. He's no pro bowler, but I don't see him as much of a liability as I do a guy who I wish we could upgrade because I'm greedy and want to see Trent rush for 2k.
Michell was an F because he should never have been drafted. UDFA.
Thank you...much more sense evaluating this draft class than the present one
Key to any draft class is the success of the first two impact rounds. Them who are competitive usually have year in n year out success from those two rounds.
Also in reviewing our horrible history is the lack of hitting on those two rounds. We got to hit on those IMPACT PICKS...no not everyone has to be Pro Bowlers but we need them to contribute as starters.
Haden n Ward...I think both have Pro-Bowl accolades in their future (need to start winning). Ward has had injuries but nothing career ending.
Anything else is bonus...Hardesty (since we got Trent) will only be depth he missed a lot from injury - might not be a guy we keep here long term (after his contract runs out) only cause RB talent is found everywhere.
Lava...I like him more than most. He does get good reviews from coaches. But fact is he is a Starter n it will be hard for us to UPGRADE on him. Good Value finally from a 3rd round pick out side of McCutcheon have we ever had a decent 3rd round pick???
The rest are done n gone although we might have signed some weird contract with Mitchell WR. Colt still out there cause we traded him n didn't we use one of those picks for that 2014 4th round pick??? So who ever that is n Gilkey in 2013 becomes an asset to the Colt pick.
Not an amazing draft but the first of what I hope are many IMPACT PICK STARTERS coming from the draft. The key on the Browns finally becoming relevant to the NFL again!
JMHO
If you graded drafts by: legendary, great, good, meh, and bad, 2010 would have been labeled "good" if you ask me.
We got two starters, three if Lauvao ever steps up, and a very nice second RB in Hardesty.
If we weren't so talent depleted and so in need of hitting on EVERY pick, I'd give this Draft a B, easily.
no offense, you are not alone in saying it, but I hate the assessment that Ward is injury-prone because of his 2nd year. yes, he got injured and missed 8 games in year2 and that stinks.
he played 16 games his rookie year. he played 14games last year and played well despite having a cast on his hand. let's not call him injury-prone until he starts missing many games in multiple seasons or has something that is recurrent.
missing 2 games/season should be expected out of the safety position. it's a tough position that includes alot of open-field full-speed collisions.
No complaints on your grades overall. I might adjust a smidge here or there, but overall, pretty spot on. One comment regarding the Hardesty post - I'd disagree on Golden Tate - he started 15 games last year, had 45 receptions (85th) on 68 targets, 7 TD (22nd), almost 700 (58th) yards and one of the lowest drop rates in the league (2 drops). I'd consider that a decent starter for a #2 receiver (albeit not great). Of course that will all change this year with the Perch Harvin trade.
Overall a very good draft and just a couple things kept it from being a great draft.
1. Ward has been dinged up and I don't think he has realized his potential yet.
2. Hardesty has been dinged up since the day he got off the plane. Guy has looked very productive at times but has just never been able to stay on the field consistently enough to really get in a groove.
3. Colt was forced into action way too soon in a poorly designed offense. A couple years of spot duty with a good offensive scheme and I think he could have been better, though I think his future is as a back-up/spot starter.
I think Haden is very good to great, I think Ward is really good and might be great, I think Lauvao is still on the roster and contributing, which isn't bad for pick 92 and I still think he will get better.
I will just conclude by saying that with the coaching debacle these guys have played under, it's really hard to know where each of their ceilings really is....
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three if Lauvao ever steps up
He has stepped up n been the starter for two years now - this will be his 3rd. What "IF"?
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three if Lauvao ever steps up
He has stepped up n been the starter for two years now - this will be his 3rd. What "IF"?
Was he not an injury fill-in for Pinkston, or am I mixing him up with someone else??
Greco filled in for Pinkston when he had his medical issues.
Ahh, thanks. For some reason I had thought Lauvao had been a backup the last year.
Well, that just further bolsters the grades on the 2010 Draft, I'd say.
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three if Lauvao ever steps up
He has stepped up n been the starter for two years now - this will be his 3rd. What "IF"?
The 'if' is if he can play at a high level.
At this point, I would call his play 'serviceable', which is a notch below 'average'.
I'm not ready to write him off, but, yes, if he doesn't step up his game, we should be looking to replace him.
Good thread, nice timing on this one.
Haden A-
Ward B+
Haredesty D+...I don't normally hold an injury against a guy or the guy that drafted him. but when there are red flags and trades involved, gotta hammer it. He's in a make/break year, not just for his spot on this team, but time is running out to make any impact in the NFL. As it stands hardly any production in 3 years.
McCoy C-
Lava B
The rest? A cumulative D. Most late-rounders are expected to fail from the beginning.
Overall? B+. He hit on the first two picks and that's huge. Weighted average to the top. Got a starter out of Lava and a stopgap QB in Colt.
3 Starters (Haden, Ward and Lauvau) and 1 decent backup (Hardesty) Not a bad draft ... JMHO
I don't agree that you can give credit for Geathers, if he is developing in Philly, because that is not a positive for the Browns.
Yeah I kind of agree with TL. A draft, if you're going to do such a thing, should be graded on how much value the selection brings to the team.
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Yeah I kind of agree with TL.
Congrats, you're the first person to ever type this sentence. 
jc
if we look at this from a different perspective and only point out that:
1. if you can get 2-3 starters in any draft, you did good.
2. if you can also get 2-3 backups out of the same draft you did great.
3. if you can draft a few extra players that are still on your team or in the NFL... that borders amazing.
we have:
harden and ward and Lava as starters- good
we have McCoy and Hardesty as backups- great
everyone else is still in the NFL- borderline amazing
2010 is probably the best draft we have had since our return and better than most teams in the NFL in 2010.
I give it an A
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Yeah I kind of agree with TL.
Congrats, you're the first person to ever type this sentence.
He qualified it with the words 'kind of'. 
Other than than not giving Lava the B+ that he deserves I have to pretty much agree.
Thanks DJ. Good points and I agree with most of them. Thought I'd go back and dig up my old "week after the draft" evaluation on 2010.
Here it is:
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Ok, I primarily grade a draft ahead of time based on 4 factors: filling needs, taking BPA, intelligent trading, and taking a few guys I liked a lot (because let’s face it, we’re all biased).
Filling Needs – well, our needs before the draft seemed to be roughly in priority: S, OL, DL, CB, S, OLB, OL, WR, QB, RB (yes, S and OL appear twice on purpose)
We drafted in order of our draft: CB, S, RB, QB, OL, S, WR, DL
Taking anything outside the top3 rounds as less than 50% success rate, we likely have not filled our full need on DL, OL, WR (and the second safety). We also completely ignored our need at OLB. However, given the talent that was available and the picks we had at our disposal, I thought we did a decent job at filling needs though I am going to ding us a grade for not getting a DL earlier.
Need grade = B+
taking BPA – obviously subjective and it runs with the 4th category a tad, but I’ll try to make this one more of a ‘mock draft consensus’ category. This category could also be called ‘avoiding reaches’ which is more closely what I view it as.
Haden – BPA and the obvious pick with Berry and Suh gone.
Ward – serious issues with his knees made his draft stock lower than what we picked on most sites.
Hardesty – seemed right in line with most sites I read. Again, health concerns, but most had him as a late 2nd rounder.
Colt McCoy – going purely by the standards of this category, he seems like a steal as most had him as a 2nd rounder (I feel he went about where he should but that’s category 4).
Shawn Lauvao – a bit of a reach as most interior OL get downgraded on mock draft sites. I did find a few that had him rated as OT and by that he went where he should. So, if he is RT, then it’s right in line, but I’m grading him as a reach for now.
Larry Asante – he ranged anywhere from a 3rd to 5th round pick. A slight steal by our part there.
Carlton Mitchell – he rated anywhere from 5th to 7th. So, again a wash.
Clifton Geathers – he rated anywhere from 4th to UDFA. So, let’s call it a wash.
Final Tally:
“steals” = 2
“reaches” = 2
“wash” = 4
BPA Grade = C+ (downgraded due to Ward being considered a reach and that being the highest non-wash pick)
intelligent trading – only draft day trades count here. So, Quinn/Seneca/Shelden+Gocung trades that had picks involved are not included.
We get: #59
For: #71 + #134 + #146
Draft value chart says: Browns get: 310 points Browns give: 235 + 39 + 33 = 307
Factor in we were getting a position (RB) that we at least had lower on our ‘need’ chart. However, we did get a player that had rated well and that would not seem to have a chance of lasting until #71 (so, odds are if we wanted him we had to pay for him). And, we didn’t get a steal on the draft chart, so I’ll just go with a modest grade.
Trade Grade = B
preferred player list – completely subjective to the guys I liked and wanted to draft. Suh, Berry, Haden, Ghee, Kindle, Hughes, Nate Allen, Damian Williams, etc. And avoiding guys I didn’t like: Tate, Claussen, Spikes, Kyle Wilson, etc.
To be honest, I hadn’t really considered Lauvao, Mitchell or Geathers much before the draft one way or another. I liked Asante quite a bit as a late round guy so bonus points there. If we had to draft a QB in this weak-QB class, I am happy it was Colt (and happier it was in the 3rd). I didn’t like Hardesty all that much because I don’t like RBs who have injury concerns (more than most positions even). I liked Nate Allen, so Ward was initially a disappointment considering my pre-draft thoughts (though I see where we wanted the better tackling guy instead). And, I love Haden, very happy with that pick.
From pre-draft thoughts:
Love – 1 (Haden)
Like – 2 (Colt, Asante)
Mixed Feelings – 1 (Ward)
Didn’t Like – 1 (Hardesty)
Didn’t care one way or another – 3 (Lauvao, Mitchell, Geathers)
Preferred Grade = C+
Overall Grade = B-
Nice draft summary.
Question: What ever happened with Assante? I remember the kid has so much promise n then Poof - he disappeared. Was he a kid we tried to waive n put on our Practice squad n it backfired...or is my age/memory glomming a result from another regime???
JMH?
He was out of football last year after playing with the Buccs the previous years. He's currently under contract with the Colts but is probably a bit of a longshot to make the team.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap-hit/Actually, looking at their roster he's got a decent chance to win the 4th safety spot with them. Joe Lefeged, Larry Asante, and John Boyett fighting for probably two spots. Lefeged was I think a UDFA for them last year and they drafted Boyett this yer, so he's probably not starting off in the lead, but he's got a shot.
Thanks for the info Clevesteve...I know this is a message board n communication is confusing. Part of my whatever happened to Assante was beside the literal...but mostly I wonder WHY? What happened? drugs? Injury?
ah gotcha. I think he just wasn't that good. The guy we tried to stash was Don Carey who went to the Jaguars. Carey is on the Lions now and apparently was one of many players to pick off Andrew Luck last year. And he did it twice.
Carey...yep now I remember thanks. Mangini got a little cute on that one or was it a Kokinos cluster muck as was most the draft.
Assante was one of those good motor kids from Nebraska if I remember correctly. I just remember him having promise n us giving up on him very quickly.
thanks.
Nah, No one got "cute" on Don Carey. Teams had a tradition of waiving injured draft picks to put them on IR ..... and Jacksonville broke that "gentleman's agreement" among teams and claimed him anyway. I forget now, but it was the first time in quite a while that a team had done that with another team's player.
And it really sucks because Carey turned out to be an All-Pro.
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And it really sucks because Carey turned out to be an All-Pro.
Sure Hall of Famer.
(One day .... on a former football player's message board ........ maybe .....)
He did have 39 tackles and 2 INT last year for the Lions though ..... so he might have been a decent player for them. I didn't watch many Lions games.
My 2 cents:
Haden B: Living up to high pick expectations, to get an A he would need to be one of the top 4 corners in the NFL, which he isn't.
Ward: B+, although I don't see him has a difference maker and probably wouldn't start for half of the teams in the NFL, I see value on this pick.
Hardesty: D we had to draft a RB in the first round, so major fail here.
Mccoy: C- backup QB material, not that bad
Lauvau: B+ /A-, Finding a starter or backup for our OL in this round deserves an A
Overall I would grade this draft a B because anything less then 2 good players would be an F
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Haden B: Living up to high pick expectations, to get an A he would need to be one of the top 4 corners in the NFL, which he isn't.
Where did you come up with the arbitrary number of top four corners?
*SIDE NOTE* I say he has to be in the top 8.5 corners to get an A.
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Ward: B+, although I don't see him has a difference maker and probably wouldn't start for half of the teams in the NFL, I see value on this pick.
Half the teams?
So, regardless of Haden being the best pick that could have been made at that spot he gets a B from you? Doesn't it matter WHO ELSE was left on the board? Strange grading system
Top 4 CB= probowl starter, you could say top 6 CB....
Regarding the pick I think it was competent, not amazing. Jason Pierre Paul, would have been an amazing pick, Rob Gronkowsky also for example.
Regarding Ward, its my assessment and I'm being generous here.
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Regarding Ward, its my assessment and I'm being generous here.
what played into such an assessment that you think Ward is not among the 32 best safeties in the NFL (which would be starting for half the teams - 2 S's) or best 16 SS in the NFL (if we limit it to SS, which some teams differentiate and some don't)?
and, how is that generous for a guy being named to All-Pro lists (SI) along with being ranked as a top5 SS in most places?
Well, that could be true. I did look at Haden more as a player on his own merits, as opposed to within the context of that draft.
Probably the only other picks that would have been on par or better (In the 1st round, after he was picked) would be guys like Earl Thomas and Jason Pierre-Paul. Maybe Sean Weatherspoon. Devin McCourty would be an A for sure, going to the Patriots at 27. Given his selection at 27 is really about the only thing that could knock down Haden's grade by comparison.
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Regarding the pick I think it was competent, not amazing. Jason Pierre Paul, would have been an amazing pick, Rob Gronkowsky also for example.
Just to further put things in context... is JPP the same guy here without Usi and Tuck and an established defense and an offense that can score points and get people behind?
Likewise, if Gronk goes to a team thats starting.. oh I don't know, Colt McCoy and Seneca Wallace and Brandon Weeden still the same Gronk that we see with Tom Brady?
Haden and Ward were good picks. The rest not so much.
Django you know the concept of positional value quite well and what we have gotten from Hardesty as a 2nd round back or Lava as a 3rd round guard is pretty poor. Colt well the % chance of getting a good starting QB outside of round 1 is pretty low so you can kind of excuse that one, and at least we got a late round pick back from him. That is almost certainly more than we could get for anyone else from that draft (outside of Haden and Ward of course.)
That was a pretty loaded draft class as well. Just a small sampling from rounds 2 on: Gronk, Daryl Washington, Carlos Dunlap, Brandon Spikes, Jared Veldheer, Emmanuel Sanders, Navorro Bowman, Jimmy Graham, Aaron Hernandez, Geno Atkins, Kam Chancellor, Antonio Brown, and even some good UDFAs (David Nelson, Sam Shields, Chris Ivory, Jake Ballard, Victor Cruz)
Haden and Ward kept that draft from being an unmitigated disaster.
I factored in everything I could think of, positional and slot value and think the Hardesty pick was AVG and Lauvao slightly above AVG
Just for fun, let's look at the Eagles (and Banner's?) 2010 draft, they picked 13 players:
13) DE Graham...12 starts, 8.5 sacks in 3 seasons
37) FS N.Allen...38 starts, good start but not the same after injury
86) DE Teo-Nesheim...was cut after rookie season, started for the Bucs after Clayborn injury with 4 sacks in 2012, backup
105) CB Lindley...hasn't played the past 2 seasons, constantly released/roster bubble
121) LB Clayton...did nothing for 2 seasons, now with the Raiders
122) QB Kafka...16 career PAs, 2 INTs, McCoy looks like gold compared to him. He's now no3 with the Pats
125) TE Harbor...in 3 years AVGed 15 catches and 9yds/catch. He was such a good backup that the Eagles signed Casey in FA and drafted Ertz in round 2
134) DE Sapp...not even a tackle yet, on the Jets roster now
159 WR R.Cooper...46 catches, 679yds and 5 TDs in 3 seasons, guess he's a decent no5 WR
200) RB C.Scott...out of the league
220) LB Chaney...backup, started in year two when they got torched and back to backup. Now on roster bubble as scheme misfit
243) DT Owens....who?
244) SS K.Coleman...below AVG starting SS, but at this point and consideruing the players picked before he might be the best player out of this class, so
I thought this was about the 2010 Browns draft.. not the Eagles. But yeah, you are right, that Eagles draft was extremely awful by any measure. None of us really know who had what power and when in Philly, but at the very least they had a lot of good drafts and were competitive for a long time. That's for another thread though.
Hardesty AVG for 2nd round pick lol 23 games in 3 years, 3.5 ypc and I seem to remember him trying to break the record for most dropped passes in a game. That is worse than replacement level production. The regime that drafted him liked him so much they traded up to #3 to grab T Rich last year. I give the Hardesty pick a D- and the only reason for not giving it an F is that he showed signs of life last year.
I'm a fan of profootballfocus. I know some people around here know how good all 2,000 or so NFL players played in any given season so those people can ignore this, but here is what they said about the 2012 Browns offensive line:
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5. Cleveland Browns (14)
PB – 3rd, RB – 11th, PEN – 25th
Stud: In the upcoming weeks or so we’re going to do a piece on how often (per second) Joe Thomas (+25.6) gives up pressure compared to the rest of the league. It’s stunning how shutdown he is. Now, if only his run blocking matched up to his work in the pass game.
Dud: You can get by with players like Shawn Lauvao (-7.3) when the rest of your line is so good.
Summary: It’s not the done thing to give praise to Cleveland. That said, their line is extremely talented and when they were forced to introduce John Greco into the lineup they got even better. The stars are Thomas and Alex Mack, but the play of rookie Mitchell Schwartz bodes well for this line for a long time to come.
Here is a post someone around here made about guards recently:
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People talk about Warmack the same way they did about DeCastro last draft. Warmack's problem is that he's a G-only, he won't EVER play C or OT and I have my doubts he's athletic enough to play LG in the NFL....DeCastro has the same problem, they're both RGs only imho, and those are dime a dozen. Half the Gs in the NFL are former College OTs...have you ever thought about why?
Cooper has much more value for a team needeing an interior OL and Warford later represents much better value than Warmack.
All that said, we have 4 young Gs...OL, especially interior OL is a position where you need a little time to get better. Who the hell knew Vasquez before this season? He was a Lauvao-like dime a dozen G his first 2-3 years, no kidding. Do you know why Greco looked the best of our Gs? It's not because he has the most talent, or he wouldn't have been cut by the Rams of all teams...it's because he was the most experienced. Interior OL get better with time, this isn't rocket science...Greco, Pinkston and Lauvao have shown that they belong in that league, now leave them alone and let them get better together...
Do you remember who made that? I can find some other ones I'm sure 
So?
I said Lauvao "is a bottom 3rd starting OG in this league" and PFF agrees and even says you can get by with players like this at RG. Where's the beef? We see the same player.
What PFF doesn't grade is how important for Mack and Schwartz was to have the same guy that they know playing at RG, his durability and upside left. Also, I'm sure Greco, Vasquez and Levitre were not as good in their first 3 seasons as they were in 2012...this is Lauvao's make or break season, but I'm confident that he'll elevate his game to AVG OG level this season.
As for Hardesty: you can't compare him to 2nd rounders picked before him, that's why I included the players picked right after him and the whole draft as reference. Fact is, no better RB was picked in that draft AFTER him. We can't trade up to get the no1 guy at every position. Hardesty AVGed 4.2 ypc in his first healthy season, so grading him anywhere from an AVG pick to a fail is probably dependend on what you think of his upside left. I think he can be a good complimentary RB that can carry the load if called upon to spot start. At 59, while not great or good value, that'd be an AVG value pick considering how many flat out busts are visible after pick 50
Yeah I don't think we are that far off on Lauvao. Drafting a bottom 3rd starting OG in the third isn't great, but it isn't a disaster either. I guess I'd call it a C.
Hardesty we'll just have to agree to disagree. The league is full of mid-round/late-round/UDFA backs who come in and contribute immediately. Also I don't really see why we need to only focus on the players drafted immediately after him. You know as well as anybody that players rise and fall all the time. We laud Heckert for 'reaching' on players like Ward and Gordon (nobody else used a 2nd rounder on him) when those players hit so drafting a poor player shouldn't be excused just because of who was drafted immediately behind him, especially when trading up to get the player in the first place.
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Haden and Ward were good picks. The rest not so much.
Django you know the concept of positional value quite well and what we have gotten from Hardesty as a 2nd round back or Lava as a 3rd round guard is pretty poor. Colt well the % chance of getting a good starting QB outside of round 1 is pretty low so you can kind of excuse that one, and at least we got a late round pick back from him. That is almost certainly more than we could get for anyone else from that draft (outside of Haden and Ward of course.)
That was a pretty loaded draft class as well. Just a small sampling from rounds 2 on: Gronk, Daryl Washington, Carlos Dunlap, Brandon Spikes, Jared Veldheer, Emmanuel Sanders, Navorro Bowman, Jimmy Graham, Aaron Hernandez, Geno Atkins, Kam Chancellor, Antonio Brown, and even some good UDFAs (David Nelson, Sam Shields, Chris Ivory, Jake Ballard, Victor Cruz)
Haden and Ward kept that draft from being an unmitigated disaster.
What exactly has Ward done to be considered a good 2nd round pick? He has often been injured for large portions of his career thus far and has not exactly lived up to 2nd round status or expectations.
Hardesty and Ward were both 2nd round picks and both have under achieved for 2nd rounders, but Hardesty did show his value last year as a pretty solid backup RB. I would not be surprised to see Hardesty outlast Ward in the NFL.
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[Ward] has often been injured for large portions of his career thus far and has not exactly lived up to 2nd round status or expectations.
Ward missed half the season in 2011. He missed two games last year. That is not "injured for large portions of his career."
Ward, by many standards, is among the best players at his position in the league.
Your post shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.
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[Ward] has often been injured for large portions of his career thus far and has not exactly lived up to 2nd round status or expectations.
Ward missed half the season in 2011. He missed two games last year. That is not "injured for large portions of his career."
Ward, by many standards, is among the best players at his position in the league.
Your post shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.
10 out of 36 is not a large portion? that's 1 in 3? but that doesn't bother me as much as the guy cannot make a open field tackle to save his life. jmo.
hope with the new defence attack will help him with that?
The eight games he missed in 2011 were due to one injury. It's not like he kept getting injured over and over again with different things. He had one injury and had to go on the injured reserve.
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The eight games he missed in 2011 were due to one injury. It's not like he kept getting injured over and over again with different things. He had one injury and had to go on the injured reserve.
you said "That is not "injured for large portions of his career." and I think almost a 3rd of games is large portions of his career. just a fact. and I also said the attack defence might be better for him because
# 1 he doesn't have to make open field tackle that way and
#2 he doesn't have to cover so much?
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[Ward] has often been injured for large portions of his career thus far and has not exactly lived up to 2nd round status or expectations.
Ward missed half the season in 2011. He missed two games last year. That is not "injured for large portions of his career."
Ward, by many standards, is among the best players at his position in the league.
Your post shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.
by many standards? I am not saying Ward is a bad player, but the topic is about the 2010 draft. Ward is not exactly 2nd round level player, he is a liability in coverage and is just a poor tackler. He makes big hits at times but then he will turn around on the very next play and totally whiff on a tackle.
Ward was best suited when he was coming on a safety blitz, but in open field in coverage or trying to make an open field tackle, he was a liability.
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the "he doesn't make open field tackles" is the biggest myth to the Ward-bashers.
we haven't had that many good things to cheer, let's enjoy the few we have
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the "he doesn't make open field tackles" is the biggest myth to the Ward-bashers.
we haven't had that many good things to cheer, let's enjoy the few we have
I watch the games all year long. go over and over them. its what I see. right or wrong its what I saw.
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you said "That is not "injured for large portions of his career." and I think almost a 3rd of games is large portions of his career. just a fact
Not sure where your 10 of 36 games came from. Ward has played in 38 of 48 games. Thats nearly 1 in 5 missed
Link
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the "he doesn't make open field tackles" is the biggest myth to the Ward-bashers.
we haven't had that many good things to cheer, let's enjoy the few we have
I watch the games all year long. go over and over them. its what I see. right or wrong its what I saw.
You are entitled to your opinion as is anyone but I do urge you to go back and watch tape of this year. Ward made huge strides as a coverage man this year and we are not the only ones who noticed. The media has be applauding his butt all offseason. It almost sounds like you kind of wrote him off after his falling of the later part of his rookie year. Just saying.
He will never be a FS asked to cover TE's in man or fight in a jump battle but if you ask him to hold a deep 1/3 he is very capable and no one wants to open throw a WR in that deep 1/3 when TJ is lined up for a hit. I will agree he still has a tendency to over commit to some tackles but he is still very solid as a whole. His missed tackles are for the world to see when a run busts up the sideline. If you knew how many tackles LB's miss that we don't see on tv you'd understand. Open fielders are not easy. He is at least a top 10 SS right now and IMO possibly top 5 or better in Hortons system,
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you said "That is not "injured for large portions of his career." and I think almost a 3rd of games is large portions of his career. just a fact
Not sure where your 10 of 36 games came from. Ward has played in 38 of 48 games. Thats nearly 1 in 5 missed
Link
There is always someone ready to mess up an argument by bringing in facts ...
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you said "That is not "injured for large portions of his career." and I think almost a 3rd of games is large portions of his career. just a fact
Not sure where your 10 of 36 games came from. Ward has played in 38 of 48 games. Thats nearly 1 in 5 missed
Link
There is always someone ready to mess up an argument by bringing in facts ...
c'mon man.. you know that stats and facts are for losers
If you missed 20% of your workdays I'm sure your boss would not be happy.
You have to add the fact that after an injury a player doesn't perform at the same level, so lots of facts to consider not just the missed games.
Actually rastanplan I thought that was one of the more positive posts I've seen from you (2010 grades) was surprised you were getting flak for being negative.
You should have not gotten that descriptive where the negative came out. Ward bottom 16 SS??? That was your undoing I think
The rest of ya...leave off my man Lava. You act like he's a bandaid filler. He'll be starting his 3rd straight year on an OL that is considered the best UNIT of this team. If you really broke down the game film on him...n you got to see the same play 3-4 times to get the real picture...as in where did this guy come from, etc. There is a reason why the Expert analyst (ex-nfl player) of a new crew would state at the beginning of the game..."The kid I really like is Lavauo I watched the film and was impressed this guy is nasty" Of course you all missed that I guess. 2 times I had to review each play cause I couldn't believe the negative criticism Lava was getting on the What I saw game threads....Both times I came away with almost perfection n he probably graded higher than any other of our OLmen. So when I hear fellow fans dissing him - I just scoff at ya all. Sorry to bunch the Lava none believers together but the negatives of the past were so incredulous that I just don't believe any. Just being honest.
For a 3rd round pick? FOR THE BROWNS...by far our worst round in the draft history of our Browns. McCutcheon, Fowler n that was it - ALL THOSE YEARS...it was so bad I would be so happy when we would trade up with the 3rd round n a 4th or 5th to get back in the 2nd round...lol I mean we sucked with our 1st n 2nd but 3rd by far our worst.
JMHO
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If you missed 20% of your workdays I'm sure your boss would not be happy.
You have to add the fact that after an injury a player doesn't perform at the same level, so lots of facts to consider not just the missed games.
actually, a big reason that he is getting his praise is that he actually kept getting better last year despite this injuries.
as for the % of games missed, they still mostly stem from his 2nd year. he has had 1 completely healthy year, one mostly healthy year, and one year with a major injury. he had injury red flags coming out of college and safety is an injury-prone position, so we'll see what happens in the future (see my 'looking back' post above)
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10 out of 36 is not a large portion? that's 1 in 3? but that doesn't bother me as much as the guy cannot make a open field tackle to save his life. jmo.
Ward has been in the NFL for 3 years.. 3x16=48... he has missed 10 games due to injury... 10/48*100= 20.8%... that's 1 in 5 games missed.... If you want to average it out that means he plays in about 13 games a season.. wonder where that compares across the league...
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I factored in everything I could think of, positional and slot value and think the Hardesty pick was AVG and Lauvao slightly above AVG
Just for fun, let's look at the Eagles (and Banner's?) 2010 draft, they picked 13 players:
13) DE Graham...12 starts, 8.5 sacks in 3 seasons
FWIW, Pro Football Focus ranked Brandon Graham the 76th-best player in the NFL last year.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/30/pffs-top-101-of-2012-80-to-71/
76. Brandon Graham, DE, Philadelphia Eagles (Unranked)
Season 2012 was something of a glimpse at what Graham is capable of, as he got on the field for only 435 snaps. That, and that alone, was why he didn’t finish any higher because he was outstanding when he was on the field. Finishing as the most productive pass rusher in the league, Graham was near unstoppable when he got on the field.
Best Performance: Week 15 versus Cincinnati, +6.2
Key Stat: Turned his 205 pass rushes into 45 combined sacks, hits and hurries. That gave him the best Pass Rushing Productivity rating of any defensive player.
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you said "That is not "injured for large portions of his career." and I think almost a 3rd of games is large portions of his career. just a fact
Not sure where your 10 of 36 games came from. Ward has played in 38 of 48 games. Thats nearly 1 in 5 missed
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your right. I went brain dead. went back to the 60s lol
Cool, but a guy that can't hit the field is a flop no matter what, fair or not. Heck, people trash Ward for missing 20% of his starts. Graham hasn't even played half his teams' snaps when healthy...why's that? Is he one dimensional? A specialist? Anyway I look at this I can't give him a good grade as a top 15 pick after 3 years...does Hardesty get a free pass for his knee surgery? In fact, both careers are very similar...done nothing for two years, then had a good 3rd season as a part timer/backup. For a 59th overall pick that nets a C in my book, for a 13th overall, who was the headliner of his teams' draft that's closer to a D...that said, both have upside left for the upcoming season to improve their grades and the saving grace for Graham could be that he signed a 5year deal, not 4
Fair enough, good points.
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10 out of 36 is not a large portion? that's 1 in 3? but that doesn't bother me as much as the guy cannot make a open field tackle to save his life. jmo.
Ward has been in the NFL for 3 years.. 3x16=48... he has missed 10 games due to injury... 10/48*100= 20.8%... that's 1 in 5 games missed.... If you want to average it out that means he plays in about 13 games a season.. wonder where that compares across the league...
This is a good point, 1 in 5 games is not all that bad the more I think about it. Ward as well as every player will have a new start with a new regime, I hope they find away to utilize him better. I thought he was going to be a stud after his rookie year, then he seemed to disappear.
Lets hope he excels in this defensive system and proves to be a threat in the secondary.
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the "he doesn't make open field tackles" is the biggest myth to the Ward-bashers.
we haven't had that many good things to cheer, let's enjoy the few we have
I watch the games all year long. go over and over them. its what I see. right or wrong its what I saw.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/29/pffs-top-101-of-2012-101-to-91/
97. T.J. Ward, S, Cleveland Browns (Unranked)
Playing in Cleveland doesn’t always lend itself to having your performances rewarded with nationwide praise. So while you don’t often hear the name of Ward mentioned among the better safeties in the league, don’t think that’s a reflection on what he did in 2012. A real force in the box, Ward is more than just adequate in coverage, allowing just 12 receptions into his coverage all year.
Best Performance: Week 12 versus Pittsburgh, +3.7
Key Stat: Missed just one tackle for every 17.5 he attempted in 2012. That was the second best number of all safeties.
Thanks for that. Some people think you are supposed to make every tackle and never give up a TD pass to be considered good.
+1 on `Peen's thoughts as well.
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Thanks for that. Some people think you are supposed to make every tackle and never give up a TD pass to be considered good.
Come on ... if you miss one tackle, or give up a TD, you have to suck.
Just as an aside here ..... but people beat on Skrine like crazy, but he's pretty good at covering the slot. He's just not an outside cover guy.
I'll agree with that. I actually thought he was superb in his coverage against Mike Wallace. The prototypical #1 receivers are where he really struggled.
We've had a ton of players like him through here over the years. They look great in limited duty, but when they get a chance to start they look terrible.
What people often fail to realize is that in the limited duty, they are either just a slot guy, or they are playing zone and often when they becomes a "starter" they now have to do lots of man coverage, which is where they get beat. They're still just as good as ever in those other roles, coaches just have to put them in the roles in which they can succeed. We saw a lot of this type of production from "lesser" corners under both Butch and Crennel.
I've really missed the production we saw from Henry and Bodden. Seems like it has been years since we had someone successfully ball-hawk in our defenses.
From MrUniverse:
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Ward is not exactly 2nd round level player, he is a liability in coverage and is just a poor tackler. He makes big hits at times but then he will turn around on the very next play and totally whiff on a tackle.
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What exactly has Ward done to be considered a good 2nd round pick? He has often been injured for large portions of his career thus far and has not exactly lived up to 2nd round status or expectations.
From pblack18707:
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the "he doesn't make open field tackles" is the biggest myth to the Ward-bashers.
we haven't had that many good things to cheer, let's enjoy the few we have
I watch the games all year long. go over and over them. its what I see. right or wrong its what I saw.
From clevesteve:
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97. T.J. Ward, S, Cleveland Browns (Unranked)
Playing in Cleveland doesn’t always lend itself to having your performances rewarded with nationwide praise. So while you don’t often hear the name of Ward mentioned among the better safeties in the league, don’t think that’s a reflection on what he did in 2012. A real force in the box, Ward is more than just adequate in coverage, allowing just 12 receptions into his coverage all year.
Best Performance: Week 12 versus Pittsburgh, +3.7
Key Stat: Missed just one tackle for every 17.5 he attempted in 2012. That was the second best number of all safeties.
Remember the game Haden had against Boldin? He's clearly not a good corner
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We've had a ton of players like him through here over the years. They look great in limited duty, but when they get a chance to start they look terrible.
What people often fail to realize is that in the limited duty, they are either just a slot guy, or they are playing zone and often when they becomes a "starter" they now have to do lots of man coverage, which is where they get beat. They're still just as good as ever in those other roles, coaches just have to put them in the roles in which they can succeed. We saw a lot of this type of production from "lesser" corners under both Butch and Crennel.
That's true. Butch had Henry and McCutcheon. Romeo had Bodden; BMac played pretty well at times.
I feel like Shurmur struggled to conform to his players' strengths, but Jauron seemed to know what he was doing. The secondary the past couple years though has been horrific. Probably a combination of ignoring it and square pegs being put in round holes.
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The secondary the past couple years though has been horrific. Probably a combination of ignoring it and square pegs being put in round holes.
In my opinion, a lot of it is that we played a lot more man coverage and not so much zone. If we're in man coverage and our 2nd best CB is a 34 year old Sheldon Brown that has lost a step, we're going to get beat. Ditto for when Skrine was in there when Haden was out.
If there is one big positive to this new defense, if we really will be like Pittsburgh, is that it is zone blitzing. So, we'll be bringing big pressure every play but with zone behind it, and in zone coverage you don't need every CB to be a super star... you just need a few Leigh Bodden's. Having a Joe Haden just makes it that much better.
Skrine is still developing - well theoretically all players should continue their development. But in Skrine he came in very RAW so that he is probably a year behind in his development. How can he get praised for his slot coverage then in the same breath state he is terrible in outside coverage. All that tells me is in his development he is comfortable now with his slot duties - when pressed to the outside last year due to injuries he was uncomfortable also thinking about his responsibilities & it showed.
But nobody is giving him the reality of him continuing his development there is no guarantee of his prowess covering on the outside. But if he got good in the slot over time why will he NOT GET GOOD on the outside over time as well.
Usually when a CB is defined as a slot CB it usually is a reflection of his lack of size (180-190) including height and/&/n (don't want to insult anyone lol ) the general perception of his Run defense.
I think a lot of this kid McFadden n think he will be very successful as a Cover CB for us. But Skrine is not dead to that production if the need to call on him again. His addition for depth is going to be Better than last year - I think one can naturally Assume that!
JMHO
If you watch him cover some of the slot receivers who are smaller and more speedy, he did a good job last year.
However, when you see him going up against guys on the outside (when he tried to bump Calvin Johnson in last year's preseason is a prime example), he really struggles.
Oh I saw his struggles and am not trying to state they were not there. I am stating the kid is still developing in that Leaps n Bound stages of a raw talent. He looks good at his slot coverage...one can presume if (BIG IF) he continues his development he will become much better with his outside coverages...which is all I'm saying.
He has not peaked in his development.
JMHO
I hope you're right, and I hope if he switches to outside, they at least put him in a coverage scheme that suits his strengths.
If/when Skrine continues his development, he'll get praised for it. Until then, however, he is not an outside cover guy and can't be counted on as such.
As long as you are consistent with that premise...I'll read some posts regarding the draft. I'm sure you are saying all this Prospects SUCK till they prove it to you
I guess that should be in purple...but look I'm not telling you to not have an opinion. I'm just stating facts about young players who are still developing. No where am I guaranteeing that he will make the transition with flying colors. I am just stating he is still developing. This is 2013 season - not 2012. What you just said if you re read your post is that YOUR MIND IS CLOSED...This is the way it is - you wish for me to agree with that...sorry no. That is reactionary. It still doesn't mean he is going to do well with outside coverage. But you are this is what I saw last year. End of story no Progress. I agree totally on what you saw...but I do KNOW AS A FACT PROSPECTS PROGRESS. That's all nothing less nothing more!
He isn't a draft prospect, he's played in the NFL, and his play, thus far, is not up to snuff to play outside in man coverage in the NFL.
That's all there is to it. Could he turn out to be more? Sure, he could. He hasn't shown anything like that, yet, however.
Could he be like Bodden and excel on the outside in zone coverages? Absolutely, and we should get a good chance to see that this year.
And no, my mind is not closed, lol!
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If you watch him cover some of the slot receivers who are smaller and more speedy, he did a good job last year.
However, when you see him going up against guys on the outside (when he tried to bump Calvin Johnson in last year's preseason is a prime example), he really struggles.
That comes from a lack of experience not a lack of talent.
Don't know where I said he wasn't talented, bro...
strong sarcasm...why I mentioned purple.
I get frustrated sometimes with negative posting on a player or whatever. I try to look at the possible glass half full n just don't SAY IT IS SO...but put some Football logic. I do know the youth "PROGRESS" actually all do but the leaps n bound progress is usually done the first 3 years. In Skrines case I've seen it and possibly because of his raw background is still in that Leaps n Bound stages. If he can progress from horrible to pretty good in slot coverage who is to say it won't happen as well for Outside coverage both press n zone. If Horton brings Zone I love it - cause it goes well with us bringing the pressure so that eyes are on the QB n can play the ball.
But I get frustrated cause not you but all in general who post negative (I don't class you as a guy always negative) you guys have all the win win n I wish I could have that.
I mean if you are correct...you of course get to say I AM CORRECT
But if you are wrong...you get to say - I LOVE IT THAT I'M WRONG n all don't 
you cause all are HAPPY. Me I put myself out there cause I'm that's how I do my Fan thing...I don't care to opine on the Negatives...I'm no fool I know the negatives but I want to look at my team especially in the off season with just what the positives can be. Me if I'm right all get into the rejoicing n who cares that I'm correct. But if I'm wrong...its bitterness cause we are losing n EO or Tab I remember you saying this n that n you Suck credibility for it.
Its like I feel its easy to be negative & too many take that road. Man you must be a therapist or something - I feel like I'm on a posting couch
Heheh!
It isn't about having an opinion that is right or wrong... all of our opinions are just that, opinions.
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Its like I feel its easy to be negative & too many take that road.
Absolutely, I agree. In some situations though, what may be perceived as "negative" is really just being a realist... of course, that is also very subjective and only time will tell us if it is anything more than opinion
And I don't mean to sound negative, but I just don't currently see him being able to be a man-coverage kinda guy like Haden. I do think that he stands a chance of at least being serviceable in zone, but that's it... and I also really hope that I'm wrong and we actually have a diamond in the rough
Tab, not trying to be confrontational...... But don't you feel it's realistic for fans who see things like "upside, potential" and every other possible slang for "maybe", to feel very much like you do in reagards to hearing this year in and year out without having a winning team?
At some point, we need to see something tangible or those same bullet points year in and year out get very old and stale.
I'll use the Lombardi example. Everyone can take a long look at his draft record everywhere he's been and have "good reason to realistically question his hire".
Yet when it's done, you're accused of being in love with the last regime, being against this FO or having some agenda. When the fact is, there's evidence in black and white to give it legitimate questions.
Since 1999, I have heard all of the positive talk year in and year out. It's gotten people nowhere but disappointed to this juncture.
It's like this entire "consensus" issue. Not everyone is going to agree on who to draft, or which FA to sign. This isn't a perfect world. So at some point, someone has to have the final say. That someone is Banner. It can be spun anyway someone wishes, but it's a corporate structure. I do think this FO did a good job selling this idea to the fan base, but it's not how corporations are ran.
I'm not trying to discourage people from having a positive attitude, but with all things being equal, I think you must admit on some level that trying to be realistic, verses negative or positive is not a bad thing.
And since 1999, fans have every right to be just as much or more frustrated by the positive diatribe year after year only to be disappointed, as anyone could have with negativity.
Because if you look at this teams record since we came back, I think it's far easier for fans to look at reality and confuse it with negativity than the other way around.
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So at some point, someone has to have the final say. That someone is Banner. It can be spun anyway someone wishes, but it's a corporate structure. I do think this FO did a good job selling this idea to the fan base, but it's not how corporations are ran.
How are corporations run then?
Good post. I am on your side since every draft I want the best and look for upside, well it just don' happen like that. the Browns will have bust an Booms from the draft, but I like the route they are going as of date. Time will tell if that sticks. 1st round or even 7th you do not get a guarantee on how these players produce, it all falls on the players and how they adapt and deal with their role on the roster.
With a decider! (love that Bushism)
Everyone answers to the CEO. He answers to the board. That's how corporations work. Done! Taadaa!
Not confrontational... 
why you.... lol j/k
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I'll use the Lombardi example. Everyone can take a long look at his draft record everywhere he's been and have "good reason to realistically question his hire".
Not on this board at the time - but there I was when the move was being made posting every draft he was involved with looking at the first two rounds what I considered the key to be considered successful n having a healthy team weighing 5 years of the first two rounds clicking with the team. I am realistic. And when confronted I stated look - I don't like my impressions that I have of Banner nor Lombardi. I hate what we got until I see a PLAN in place then I will re-evaluate them.
Soon we hired Chud n the rest of our coaches, Had a FA period that a plan was told n we kept to it. Now the draft. Every step of the way I have been reinforced of the New Regime having a legit Positive to this team being successful!
What you are implying - I know you didn't say it but go re-read what you stated and even though you were very polite. Basically what you were saying is that if I am positive regardless of how football Logically I present it - I HAVE NO CREDIBILITY.
So if I am a positive poster I'm not Realistic, the negative posters have more credibility cause they are realistic!
Here is my none confrontational feelings on that. No one can argue the results.
I have been pretty consistent with one thought process. CONTINUITY. I haven't liked many of the Systems we have utilized in the past (personally) but I didn't care it wasn't about me. What I do know as somebody involved with football is PICK ANY SYSTEM n stick with it - improving, tweaking to individual talent on hand, mold it into a successful system. This has been our biggest failure as a team!
Our 2nd biggest failure simply put has been our drafted talent - we forever have been scrambling so that we go for too many High Risk picks to make up for the lack of Superstar talent that should have been here already. Also the simple fact we never procured our Franchise QB we did not have success.
So what I see a lot is Negative posting with 25% facts why how etc. being correct being considered REALISTIC cause the END RESULT has us in a negative in a lot of cases for ALL THE WRONG REASONS - but in general that poster is Credible 
What most posters do not know is I don't like much of the stuff going on...even questioning the drafts...Remember one of my first threads on our Board in 01 (joined March 2001) regarding the 01 draft titled "Groundhog Day" oddly used by the media a lot over the years lol But criticizing Butch - for REDOING our draft of 2000.
Brown in 2000 Butch redoing to Warren in 2001 for the first.
Northcutt in 2000 Butch redoing to QM in 2001 for the 2nd.
Travis Prentice in 2000 Butch redoing to James Jackson in 2001 for the 3rd.
I was very critical of our draft...I was new to the board and instantly I was an accepted poster. But after being around for a while I saw too many negative posts n members would literally be depressed. So instead of staying with the critical end...I would step back n state, you know what if Butch/Savage/Mangini/Heckert/Lombardi are right. Why are they doing this what is the big picture? How can this work. I would debate it and so many posters whether on the board or via PM would thank me cause they didn't want to be depressed in the OFF SEASON...there was enough of that DURING THE SEASON.
But Diam did a great post (I probably argued with him a bit at the time but it was truth) we won't do much until we GET THE TALENT HERE. Our drafting was not that good and the constant change even if it wasn't in the HC every season. It seemed we were changing the OC or DC in between. We never had continuity.
Drafting very simply we were so bent in changing things to the better n in FAST mode we ignored the less sexy LOS n keyed on Impact players. Why I praise Heckert.
But 90% of my football logic was spot on but because our end result was Negative poster will point their finger n state NO CREDIBILITY. You know what If I cared what people thought of my football I would go along with the EASY way n post negative.
I think I have maintained my credibility simply cause my football logic IS SOUND. Things went wrong for a lot of reasons not many around the logic. Health little depth, no continuity new O new D talent lacking. NO QB!!!
Slowly at a snails pace we are getting out of Expansion...it should have been done the first two seasons but we blew all those picks they gave us for Long Term...why I will always HATE CLARK! We have been scrambling ever since.
I thought Mangini - started the change. I thought He went LONG TERM in his thought process of course having that OVER n DONE after 1 year. But the start was there. Heckert came on with the security of NO WAY he can get fired as Holmgren was the Czar set up. He went Long Term as well - drafting solid players even if they were not IMPACT guys. Taking care of the LOS - committing to the YOUTH even if we would struggle at first. Its a shame our O system would take so much continuity to be any good n I thought Shurmur just didn't have it as a good HC...he was not a super star but a HC in training. Then came the sell... 
No more job security and here we are.
With a very good FIRST TIME drafted Foundation to build on. Instead of the 5 year overhaul program we have been use to (NOBODY reached 5 years Four was the longest) we for the first time are on the NFL current norm of 3 year program due to the fact of having a foundation for the first time.
I am real with my outlook. I choose to possibly go with an unlikely RESULT cause I feel the FAN BASE including myself deserve the hope n logic of HOW THIS WILL WORK n We will enjoy the season. The odds of all those things falling in place are slim, so what it doesn't change my credibility. SO I DON'T REALLY CARE what people think...I mean I don't post to get accepted. I know if posters read everything I right they can read the writing in between. I have much less of an Ego thing as people accuse me of.
Also why my What I saw thread is widely accepted from negative n positive posters. Cause it is PURE WHAT I SAW...no speculation n the truth is there to see. A lot of posters think I refute anyone to post negative on what I saw. Never have I just don't want RANTS OF NEGATIVITY...I want descriptive actual accounts of the game if it happens to be negative so be it. As long as it is factual. Now I have written another book. Defending my positive posting all I can say is we are actually getting closer I have kept my rah rah down cause I can give a sigh of relief...we are very close!
I'm realistic even if I'M POSITIVE If my logic is wrong SHOW ME Debate me Discuss with me. What I abhor is posters who state I am a HOMER so ergo I am wrong...I think that is a cowards way of debating with me
JMHO
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What I abhor is posters who state I am a HOMER so ergo I am wrong...I think that is a cowards way of debating with me
Oh, whatever, you're such a homer that you get author royalties from "Iliad" and the "Odyssey".
p.s. You're Wrong!
j/c
Chuck Klosterman did an 'inside the Browns war room' piece for Grantland that's pretty insightful.
Profanity, so I can't post it, but it's worth looking up.
Apparently we had one deal in the works that would've sent our #6 for two future firsts, a 2013 second and a handful of later round picks.
I just read it and its a good piece. Someone could probably post it if they masked the quotes of profanity. I'd do it but am on an iPad and am lazy right now.
It does confirm Mingo was the #1 guy on their board.
and here i thought i was going to get some work done this afternoon...
It's a very long piece, but well written.
Klosterman does a lot of good work.
IIRC, he used to work for the Akron Beacon-Journal.
He's not a native Clevelander, but he's spent enough time around the area to know it's sports fans.
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I just read it and its a good piece. Someone could probably post it if they masked the quotes of profanity. I'd do it but am on an iPad and am lazy right now.
It does confirm Mingo was the #1 guy on their board.
It still can't be posted if it contains profanity. It can't be linked to if it contains profanity. However, if someone really wants to track down the article, it takes about 2 seconds going to the website that was mentioned.
DC, everyone knows that someone has the final say. That not every every person contributing to an idea or policy has as much weight as some others.
There is a pecking order with the guy at the top having the final say. Let's face it, saying there will be a consensus for all picks isn't realistic.
It's a great PR move though.
I do feel this coaching staff is the best we've had so far. But in every business someone has final say. Not everyone agrees on anything very often.
I don't see that as being very complicated nor unrealistic what so ever.
I'll make my reply simple and short.
You have posted relatively positive for many years. Our record indicates there wasn't much to be positive about.
Your opinions verses the results we have gotten are extremely far apart. To me, that sums it all up. Your optimistic posting verses the results we have seen.
And I have no problem with people being positive. But once again, it has shown to be quite incorrect since our return.
I'm simply stating that when you hear "rah, rah" all the time and see a total flop on the field, that's no less frustrating than seeing negative posting that often turns out to be quite accurate.
And continuity? That's a great thing if you have people in place who are capable of being successful at their jobs.
I don't feel that keeping RAC just for the sake of continuity would have helped us, do you? I don't think listing a host of QB's that have been here since 99 would have helped us either.
So I'm all about continuity but not just for the sake of continuity. The people actually have to have the capability to be successful and show growth that would indicate that before continuity can work.
Yeah too bad life ain't that simple...that is like me saying...Pit you don't have a clue so anything you write is incorrect Your disgusting justification that I have no credibility was very nauseating to read. But I get it. And if you had some reading comprehension you would note that all that I discuss is not RAH RAH...I simply pose the plan.
Your rendition of Continuity again displays your clueless approach to what is REALITY.
Sorry to take the gloves off...but the door is now open - I will state what I actually think.
Continuity is the KEY. You just don't get it. If the coaches are not correct et al. That means you could have a GOOD TEAM but will not get far in the playoffs. Continuity of just about any competent NFL system should have you 8-8 or better unless you have critical Injuries. To state otherwise just says..."I GOT NO CLUE" 
Positive n Logical football posts of what we could be if things work out right to the plan are not Rah Rah. Rah rah is where I post 16-0 in the Prediction thread. I don't post that as a reality fact that I wish to debate. Its Rah Rah. To subject all my post to be in that type of category...is Simply A COWARDS VIEW who just can't hold my jock...basically YOU
I cannot believe you wrote what you wrote. especially after I clearly explained myself for being positive - probably the most insulting post I have ever read regarding my football. So excuse me if I pick on your Lousy Football posting. Don't take it personal...ITS JUST REALITY.
You just don't get it. I don't predict anything I state where we can make things work within the plan. Again if the result is far from it. There are football reasons why that I'm willing to discuss - where I have been way off mark I have agreed n done my share of My Bads. But then you negative posters don't like listening to Reality - if posted you will state that its an Excuse.
So you consider a poster Throw Long more realistic than I. Cause at the end result he is closer than I. Makes sense n probably makes you feel relevant posting with dawgs who don't know squat about football. Then again you are Coward in football discussion. I post too positive so I am wrong in all that I post. Yeah great argument 
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Yeah too bad life ain't that simple...that is like me saying...Pit you don't have a clue so anything you write is incorrect Your disgusting justification that I have no credibility was very nauseating to read. But I get it. And if you had some reading comprehension you would note that all that I discuss is not RAH RAH...I simply pose the plan.
No, not everything you post is like that and I don't believe I indicated it was.
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Your rendition of Continuity again displays your clueless approach to what is REALITY.
Not really. You don't continue an avenue of continuity if those in charge show they are not improving. Name one HC or GM we have had here to this point that has went on to do great things in the NFL?
My point was and is, you don't just continue on the same path if those in charge aren't growing and getting better. That isn't continuity at all. That's an exercise in futility.
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Continuity is the KEY. You just don't get it. If the coaches are not correct et al. That means you could have a GOOD TEAM but will not get far in the playoffs. Continuity of just about any competent NFL system should have you 8-8 or better unless you have critical Injuries. To state otherwise just says..."I GOT NO CLUE"
Well that's an odd thing Tab. Because you have spouted about continuity in the past, yet we have only had one winning season since 99. So who was it you were promoting to have continuity with exactly?
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Positive n Logical football posts of what we could be if things work out right to uhe plan are not Rah Rah. Rah rah is where I post 16-0 in the Prediction thread. I don't post that as a reality fact that I wish to debate. Its Rah Rah. To subject all my post to be in that type of category...is Simply A COWARDS VIEW who just can't hold my jock...basically YOU
You have a rather high opinion of yourself don't you? I guess now you're doing the Tab rah rah.
Yeah, I guess if you're going to be fooled yet again as to how "everything is going to go according to the plan", you could make an excuse as to it not being rah rah. Even though history has taught us over and over, that to believe everything will go according to the plan is very naïve thinking.
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I cannot believe you wrote what you wrote. especially after I clearly explained myself for being positive - probably the most insulting post I have ever read regarding my football. So excuse me if I pick on your Lousy Football posting. Don't take it personal...ITS JUST REALITY.
You have nothing to pick on. so far you've been posting as if everything is positive and you have pretty much been consistantly giddy about everything. Which makes your track record poor at best. I've read your posts for well over a decade, and for the most part, about all of your positive predictions have been shown to be consistently wrong.
So you go ahead and try pick on my lousy posting as you call it, while most already know your lousy predictions based on those rose colored glasses.
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You just don't get it. I don't predict anything I state where we can make things work within the plan. Again if the result is far from it. There are football reasons why that I'm willing to discuss - where I have been way off mark I have agreed n done my share of My Bads. But then you negative posters don't like listening to Reality - if posted you will state that its an Excuse.
The reality is our W/L record since 1999. Plain as day. And it's funny really. I have said positive things too. Just not all of the time. I guess since maybe I do sometimes question things and sometimes approve of things, that makes me a negative poster?
I'm not rah rah all of the time and I've watched a lot of "plans" different regimes try to sell us fail miserably. So sorry if I'm not feeling compelled into helping sell yet another "plan" quite yet. I can easily see how many times we've been fooled so far and every year people keep buying the same BS.
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So you consider a poster Throw Long more realistic than I. Cause at the end result he is closer than I. Makes sense n probably makes you feel relevant posting with dawgs who don't know squat about football.
I've debated football with facts for well over a decade and you know it. Right now you have no facts and neither do I. All we have is some plan somebody is trying to sell us. We have no idea if it will work or not. Just because I'm not buying into the latest, greatest story line, doesn't mean that you are right or wrong.
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Then again you are Coward in football discussion. I post too positive so I am wrong in all that I post. Yeah great argument
That was not even close to the point. The point was how you were "getting frustrated by negative posting". The fact is, ever since 99, negativity has been the reality, not the other way around.
I asked you if you didn't feel it was possible for people to get just as frustrated listening to positive posting when we keep losing year after year?
And it is! People keep trying to make everything sound peachy keen. Why yet again, the latest, greatest "plan" will somehow magicly work while all the other ones have failed so miserably.
All I was asking you to do, was to try to understand that it's no less frustrating losing year after year while hearing someone try to pretend everything is hunky dory.
If you wish to debate football, that's fine. But as of now, all that's really being debated is how things "might work". Or whether this FO will succeed or not. Whether this FO can turn things around.
None of it is fact based. None of it holds any merit. Once we see some signs of whether it will work or not, at that point we'll have something to really discuss.
But to call me a coward in football discussions? Have you lost your ever loving mind?
This was a good draft. Haden = perfect. Ward = good choice. Hardesty+ not bad choice the jury is still out, Colt not bad but he needs the right offense to make a difference. Lauvao has been a shininng star in this whole mess as he catches hell from the regular fan, but who gaines praise from anybody who pays attention to him on the field.
Anytime you get 3 starters and a pro-bowler player from a draft, you take it.
It is rare in the NFL, go back and look at any teams draft and see how many times they hit or 3 players.