O line was trash.

play calling was pretty good in the 1st half, dunno what happened in the 2nd.

our defense.....the moment we have some adversity, they fold. which i guess can apply to the entire team.

lets be clear here: we got beat by another charlie batch. the guy is an undrafted 3rd string rookie. we can name all the injuries to our team we want, they had no big ben, no juju, no conner, no starting center. just as banged up.

we even had the REFs give us call after call today, and still sucked.

haden, our former 1st round pick, getting a game sealing int for pittsburgh pretty much says it all about our team this season.

our playoff hopes are pretty much done. DT refs, i humbling ask that you guys go ahead and throw up the draft section.

Fitting way to end the season ... loss in Pittsburgh to 3rd string guys and an embarrassing effort

But keep talking trash guys

Typical.

Well that's that.

The season is over!

i was willing to give baker huge props showing some grit with the hand injury.

but it clearly wasnt broken, and he came out the 2nd half throwing lasers. so thats not an excuse either.

i mean....he's definitely better than darnold, rudolph, and rosen at least.

Signature... That is all.

Sad losing to a 3rd string QB
Pittsburgh D is good but our OL lost this game
and Freddy WHY was Randall not playing?

Pissed away 10-0 lead. Yikes. Season is officially done and the Steelers are sitting in position to get a wildcard. Ugly. I won’t be upset if Freddie is done.

Wouldn’t be a holiday season without the absense of the browns playing meaningful games

Both sides of the ball sucked today. Ol trash. CB play sucked

I'll echo my sentiments from the Gameday thread ...

I'm certainly glad that Myles threw his helmet at Rudolph and showed them that we won't be bullied around! I mean that certainly didn't come back to bite us, and now they know who's boss.

Pittsburgh has a ton of injuries and a ton of calls go against them yet they still prevailed. It's because they're coached well.

I feel like we'd be way better just by having the AI from Madden calling plays for us.

Our O-line was garbage, but Baker wasn't exactly doing anything either. That last drive, every single one of his passes were behind his receivers.

Our defense has terrible fundamentals as well. Constantly trying to shoulder tackle guys or going for the strip rather than the tackle of first hit. Our DBs play with their back to the ball all the time and end up getting a ton of PI calls because of it.

Well as a fan I did as much as I could today. So the loss is on the organization. Freddie is now on the hotseat for sure because he just lost the most important game of our season to a third string QB on a trash team.

Pittsburgh is NOT a Playoff team Period!!

Fredrick crapped this game away when he didn’t try to put together a drive after the INT. More evidence to make Kitchens a one and done coach.

Why did we bother to sign OBJ if we are never going to throw the damn ball to him?
Man, Mayfield’s play does not match his swagger.
This team is a historic bunch of underachievers. Blech.

Baker Mayfield is Dak Prescott.

He's a loser.

#1 overall pick...doesn't play like it.

So much for 'Paradise Isle" and the Mai Tais in the sun and the Great King John .. Oh .. btw .. does anyone remember that there has never been a King John in England since the original ?? King John was so bad that no Monarch afterwards would use the name.

Now that the Playoff bubble has burst, the question is, should the Browns tank out the rest of the season, intentionally or unintentionally, for a higher draft pick. After all, The NFL Draft IS OUR SUPER BOWL.

Good frickin' job, junior. Way to let your team get humiliated by one that's missing all of their weapons. (This post sponsored by Bombay gin).

i agree with this. baker barely looked OBJ's way.

we turned him into an expensive decoy. let these guys make hard catches, give them a chance.

where was the mayfield that was willing to throw it into crazy ass windows last season? where was the mayfield that was reading the entire field last season?

man guys, im dead ass serious when i say that final drive, i had faith that baker would lead us atleast into the redzone with a chance to tie it up.

but damn, as Excl pointed out, every pass was behind the guys? no accuracy, with a INT to finish it off?

come on man.....

This is how I feel about Freddie

Dak still has more wins

They made plays at crucial times and we did not.
It is the difference brethren a solid and established team, and one still finding its way.

Case in point: after the int, bake hits Landry with a deep ball inside the 5 but it gets knocked away. There were others, but that was huge.

Uninspiring.

Pretty much saw the end coming on first Steeler drive of second half. 10-10 tie on the road season on the line. D comes out completely flat. They throw a little screen pass, and we are jogging to the ball. 15 yard gain. Uninspiring. Couple of plays later camera catches Ward yucking it up after the play with Steelers WR. Uninspiring. Later, when something wrong with replay review, camera catches Freddie yucking it up with refs. Uninspiring. Did not see a sense of urgency today. They can yuck it up all they want now, cuz season is done.

Actually i think obj ran wrong route on last play went in not out..

I say if we go 8-8, we keep Freddie.

8-8 is the stepping stone to greatness.

Playoffs next year!

That's what you got out of this game? Oh well each to their own.

I'll place most of the blame for this game on Freddie Kitchens. Putrid play calling, no plan, barely any (and poor) utilization of Hunt or OBJ who are game changers. Pass happy Freddie be gone as far as I am concerned. Virtually no adjustment since the start of the season.

And now, someone stretches the screen. Boo.

man, i dunno if we can even sweep the bengals after what i just saw today.

.

I'm just happy that Baker's injury wasn't serious. It would suck to go to Cle to watch a backup play.

I'm not fussed by this loss.

If Freddie keeps sucking, he will be replaced. (Which I kind of want)

The last two years we focused on acquiring skill players

Now we gotta build up the line. Then we will be good to go.

We averaged 4.4 Yards per Carry yet when we return an INT to their 30 we pass 3 times and punt ... Thats on Freddy !!!

its not my post, its the guy who posted the crazy long link that doesnt even work

Hey, edit this post. It's screwing up the page.

Because he skipped practice to have Thanksgiving dinner with his family. That's not what lost us this game. Fact is, we're not ready. The OBJ trade turned out to be detrimental, not helpful. Trading Avery turns out to be a mistake. There are several issues we can point fingers to, but benching Randall is not one of them. We need O-line, an experienced offensive Coord, we need blitzing on third & long. We need a third Linebacker in at all times. We need team chemistry. And so on and so forth. We're just not there yet.

It's boofers failed image post that's screwing up the thread ... and now your quoting of it.

j/c:

But we all still had fun today, didn't we?

Seriously though, at the very least we did win one this season against them, but this game sucked.

Pittsburgh blitzes, that's what they do. That's what they're known for. Kitchens runs plays where all the receivers are running 15-20 yards downfield. I don't get that.

Our oline can't pass protect. We can run block a bit, but we abandon the run.

Wilks can't gameplan properly week to week. Some weeks, he looks great then this week, he can't prepare against a never drafted guy in Duck Dodges....

Baker's injury to his hand probably factored in on his errant throws at the end.


Bad time to lay in egg against this team, this week after what happened two weeks ago.

We are hurting in our secondary, and on our dline and it does show, however, these guys are pro's and aside from Shoebert, these guys can't tackle.

sorry about that, not sure why the image didn't render

Fixed. I'm half drunk and I'm pizzed off. That is all.

Even play to play. We ran a couple corner blitzes early on and got a sack and a pressure, then never saw it again. I'm not sure we even blitzed again. We should be blitzing young QBs on 3rd and long almost every time until they beat it.

He was a Huge part of it they picked on our rookie safety all day long ...

Chubb had 6 carries in the second half. Hunt had ZERO. Keep Freddie Kitchens? Are you are out of your freaking mind? GTHOOH

He needed to be benched. Even though they picked on Redwine, that's not what cost us this game. You can't point to a single issue unless it's "They wanted it more".

Yeah, we whooped them earlier, but that felt like a loss because of what we lost during the brawl.

Freddie with the obligatory "We're gonna keep trying to go 1-0 each week."

This guy is a GENIUS I'll tell ya. LOL

I'd keep Freddie IF they hire an experience OC to call the plays.

He lost me when there were 20 seconds left in the half and he had our back up QB throw a short pass on their side of the field. Was he trying to give them a pick 6?

Landry. But yes. You don't turn into the coverage. It wasn't an errant throw, Baker threw it to where Landry should have been.

Baker was accurate all game even with a dinged hand. Don't listen to the false narrative that he was inaccurate.

I blame coaching mostly. And the GM. We were in position to win this year and we went with Hubbard at RT? Come on John, you're better than this.

So he is starting his discipline now after not having all season???

we have one..

What would our record be if we had hired Mike McCarthy? I think maybe 8-4.

1) You're changing topic. 2) I'd say that is an exaggerated generalization. 3) I get you don't like Freddie, that's your choice.

If we had any HC with the experience we would have 3-4 more wins than we do now.

9-3.

Huh?

John Dorsey Go get us an OL and a competent HC ... Thank You

Hilarious. No one on this board wanted McCarthy when he was being discussed as an option. Too vanilla. Didn't work well with Rodgers. Over-rated. So on and so forth.

This team is capable of beating anyone and losing to anyone ...

+1

I wanted Williams lol

I think John Dorsey has done a lot of things right, but I have to say that he has left the cupboard bare in terms of the offensive line. We are woefully weak at 3 of the 5 O-line positions. Its hindsight now, but the trade of Zeitler looks like a mistake. It was made with the thought that Austin Corbett was the answer at RG, which he obviously was not. Ditto the signings of Chris Hubbard and Greg Robinson at RT and LT. It makes me wonder if O-Line is his "blind spot" in terms of talent evaluation, but then again, he DID sign Mitchell Schwartz while in KC, so maybe that's not fair. All I know is that nothing will ever get better here unless and until Dorsey addresses our O-Line early and often in the next draft / free agency period. Exciting WRs and RBs are great, but the good teams in this league control the LOS on offense and defense.

No, that's not true. We can't beat SF. Doubtful we can beat New England. Or the Ravens at this point. We don't have the talent, coaching, or experience yet to beat good teams.

The Browns deserve the record we have.

There are no excuses for losing to 3rd string starters in the Denver game and again this week.

The Steelers were missing their starting center, top receiver, and running back.

I have no idea what kind of defensive game Wilks was calling?

He didn't bring pressure in clear passing downs.

Let a Duck win a critical game.

Rivalry? What rivalry? We have only proven we can lose to the Steelers when it counts.

Season over.

What I thought was going to be a fans year has turned into total crap.

Disgusted. Not even interested in the rest of the season.

All this talent and can not even have a winning season. We have no chance of beating the Ravens. I will be surprised if we beat the Cardinals.

Pure case of a team who found a way to beat a team with more talent.

This game should have been easy. Out coached out played.

Sometimes I wonder why I put so much into the Browns?

that was supposed to be a reply to you about having a competent OC that can play call.

we have one

I wanted McCarthy.

He's not calling plays though. So... smh.

Tony Dungy for 2020!!!!!

This right here pisses me off more than anything.

That's more of a function of a prideful, inexperienced HC.

Hey Caldawg, I am not saying I was all in for McCarthy. I am asking in retrospect how we would be doing with an experienced pro. I am a fan, not the Browns GM. I get to change my mind, be inconsistent and complain when the team sucks. Sorry dude.

We do not have a competent OC. We do not have a competent DC. We do not have the required talent at OT (at a minimum). We do not have a leader who can instill discipline in young men. Dorsey better be sharpening his pencil about now. Lots of holes to fill and another offseason of learning a new system. Maybe 2021? SMH

And no, the Browns aren't winning out. I'll take all bets on that right now.

Not saying it's not, just I would keep Freddie with an experienced OC calling the plays.

Wasn't an indictment, merely point out the irony. You do you.

I don't remember a more BORING game to watch in my entire life.

Myles Garrett wasn't out there, so many players aren't there, The Two minute offense can't even try a Quick Out, or Deep Out passing route at the end of the game,

I was bored in the beginning
I was bored in the 2nd quarter
it was boring to start out after halftime, bored to end the third quarter
and the 4th quarter provided no excitement either, I don't even remember anything that happened except some players got injured.

It doesn't feel like anybody's trying, I don't understand how it's not clearly visible that Mitchell should never be watching Greedy play until the latter learns how to play meaningful snaps.

I don't think the offensive line did anything, But!
I don't think Pittsburgh did anything either, it was just so freaking BORING! and it dragged on, like reading this post,
when will it end.

I nev, in 25, in 40 years I have never felt more like being completely done with the entire NFL forever, as much, (even near as much) as I feel after today, after watching that

And the Replay of the downing of the ball on the one, it's like
I DON'T EVEN CARE WHICH WAY THE CALL GOES, it's not going to matter, and everybody knows it.

and Stiller fans, wearing Duck suits??? He ain't a good guy, he ain't an exciting player to watch, my gosh,
This game, .. maybe somebody can re watch it, on download or something and get my point, I don't remember one NFL quality play from either team, at all, that stood out,
I'm just like, why? why do we have to watch this stuff.

It seems like every year, "Browns Pittsburgh! Browns Pittsburgh! "gotta be on TV!, it's "super", and they just, they all go the same way, they all stink to watch, it's boring, you know the outcome,
and it feels to me like it's like WHY! Why are we wasting everybody's time.

I don't even think, there're any NFL games I want to watch.

And What's going to make me want to watch one in the future?

So I can Watch the first two years of a players career who will be suspended for the next 14 years, or I'll get to see him win Super Bowls in a Patriots, or Saints, or Steelers, Titans, or Chargers, or just about any other teams uniform after he originally started his career with the Browns.

In 2006 this "stuff" was old! In 30 days it'll be 2020. SAD!

Oh, Post game thought... I came to say, I'm starting to feel like Kitchens' teams' upsides' are just about Equal to
are reminding me a bunch of Romeo Crennels' teams' upsides' .

Team loss. Bad defense, weak offense, and STs was letting big returns all game. Randall missing hurt more than some will admit.

I did talk smack to a Steelers fan at the bar today.

I never talk talk smack to anybody. Normally its the other way around.

I have zero confidence in Freddie to manage the game nor do I believe he can be an effective leader. He is overly emotional when situations call for him to remain calm. There isn't much discipline either. That is on the head coach. The Browns need a change.

I am so disgusted right now.

I don't want to hear a effing thing from the Browns players and coaches.

This game was there to win. If you can't beat the Steelers with a depleted roster; when are you going to beat them?

I will never fall victim to hype again. In fact I don't want to do a thing with this team until they can prove it on the field.

I am done listening to all the "stuff". Watch the game when it starts. Done with NFL Network and all bs talk.

How about having a winning season and going to the playoffs. The Bills. The Ravens. The JV Steelers. The 49ers
They found a way to make it happen.

We find every way possible way to lose.

Agreed. I like Dorsey and what he has doen in general, but the OBJ trade, in general, seems to have done more harm than good. He's been basically invisible all year, and I wonder how the position would have faired with Higgins in there from the beginning, I also wonder how we would have fared today with Zeitler in at guard, and with Peppers, Avery and Ogbah still here.

I feel ya, bone.

Denzel "hospital" Ward isn't even close to being good.

Here’s my thing with current state. This is 100% on Dorsey. He’s created this mess. First he takes away a position of strength that is the most important unit on field and made it weaker for a lateral move. Gets rid of a 1st round pick that was starting to play well and another 1st for a player we really didn’t need. Missed on about all his picks this year. Then goes against analytics that all favored stefanski to be HC and flexed to get kitchens, then let’s him call his own plays. Doesn’t even interview two coaches that took their teams to the Super Bowls. One being coach of the year and a qb guru and openly said he’d keep kitchens as his OC and groom him. This would have been win/win. I questioned kitchens hire immediately and thought he was being put in impossible situation. I don’t think he’s good as a HC or OC. But I also think he’s doing the best he can to do the job.. want to isn’t enough and doing the job isn’t the same as doing it well. So everyone is giving dorsey a pass and I believe he’s the bigger issue here

Playing with an injured hand.

Losing culture, organization, coaches, and players.

I'm not sold on Baker. Number one overall pick and can never carry the team. Doesn't even know how to get one of the top 5 WRs in football the ball. Constantly throwing high to make up for lack a height.

I'll say this again, a franchise QB doesn't miss the TD to Harris.

Pathetic.

I don't know if its the hip / groin injury he has alluded to a couple times this year or what, but Beckham doesn't look like Beckham any more. Still good, but not electric like he used to be.

I watched Mayfield play and then watch Mahomes mastering his trade. Make no mistake, there's a huuuuuge gap between these guys. Watch Freddie dick around all day then watch Reid coaching his team. They're not even on the same planet. Watch our TEs struggle to catch a ball then Watch KCs TEs catch and run the ball.

We're a pretty crummy squad...

He's been completely unimpressive this year when tightly covered. I don't know what the deal is with that.

Just heard on the radio ... we had 6 running plays in the second half today. That's not nearly enough. Chubb and Hunt represent the closest thing we have in terms of "an identity", but it seems like that's not what Kitchens wants us to be.

Play of the game that defines our season IMO:

- We are up 10-0 ... it is 3rd and 10 on their own 20 yard line. We have them reeling. Richardson jumps offsides, they get a free play ... so Duck feels like he can take a shot finally. It’s complete to Washington for 30 yards and our secondary is toasted (Ward). They had all the momentum from that play.

Chubb was chewing them up first half. smh

This sums up EXACTLY why Freddie needs to go. Can't even identify the strength of the team and use it to his advantage. Forget stubborn. Incompetent. No reason for him to be here after this season. None.

So was hunt

a few years ago, SpiritBro would say that every time the defense got a sack, they would get fined.

seems like freddie kitchens does the same with chubb and hunt now. if they are doing well, dont feed them anymore.

When we had the INT we HAD to run it IMO .. that was the spot to tie the game. Clock wasn’t an issue

B. Perriman had a hundred and some bum odd yards and I don't know if he had a td, today,
scrolled across the bottom of the television screen,

and everytime I see something like that from a player who was making meaningful plays less than 365 days ago, in a Browns uniform? (And the Browns current guys can't get things to go right)

It's not a good feeling I get.

Dianna
@diannaESPN
Spoke to Steeler players about Mike Tomlin. Players on defense pointed to the adjustments made at half. They said he “straight up went high school football coach and drew up how they were going to defend Cleveland “ since they Browns showing a different look. “He saved the game”

have we EVER had players talk about a coach like that on our team? if so, i most certainly dont remember it.

I disagree. Play of the game is the previous drive on O. 3rd and long. Baker with pressure steps up and slides, resets fires a bad pass to Higgins. Higgins unable to make the play. Could have been first down on their side of the field up 10-0.

Baker just doesn't make enough plays that winning, franchise QBs should make.

This guy is a number one overall pick. And he never delivers.

It's not even clear if Freddie spends any time with the defense.

You know, 888, it is too bad we can’t have you , eve and some of the others who constantly complain about play calling be on the sideline calling calling plays. I am sure each of you, with your vast years of experience calling plays in the nfl, would unleash an offensive juggernaut.

I will paraphrase what Jason day said after disgracing the wolverines in Ann Arbor......again. We coaches can design the greatest plays in the world but it is up to the players to execute. Our play calling is not the problem, execution is.

A couple weeks ago Bradshaw said the Browns are like a puzzle. They are almost there , but they are missing one piece. Guess what that piece is.

This season reminds me of 2008...pretenders, not contenders. A massive letdown when compared to pre-season optimism.

This team ebbs and flows and cannot play at a high level for an entire game.

We probably finish at 8-8. The only thing that will salvage this season is another win versus Baltimore.

Mayfield is our #1 QB, but I really want to see G-squared for a complete game or two.

Terence Mitchell is our best CB at this time...not even close. We must address the secondary and Oline this off-season.

I won''t even touch on the coaching staff but things feel much, mush different than the kast 8 games last year.

I really dislike arguments like these. As if we aren’t allowed to criticize Because we aren’t in the nfl.

By that logic, nobody should whine about politics since none of us are politicians.

Worse than I realized.

Good thought.

With that being said, I'll send Freddie and Todd my sheets from my old Photo Electric Football" game.

Gotta help, no?

I dont recall complaining about the playcalling much this week, but since you mention it, yes, the playcalling did suck donkey butt. Thanks for the reminder.

3 run plays per quarter the second half? Yikes

And most likely, fans could probably call better plays. This is what happens when you hire a rookie HC with zero experience. This is NOT how you run a professional football team. You are supposed to put people in charge who actually know what they are doing.

I sadly miss his commentary. I hope he is doing OK...

Yup that was a back breaker...gave them the ball back plus they got it again after the half.

That's a well-taken point. My beef isn't with the individual play calls so much as it is with the philosophy of play. Like throwing a shovel pass on 3rd and 4 instead of a cross or a slant, or a screen. It's not running the ball the second half when our RB was chewing them up in the first half. It's executing two corner blitzes, one ending in a sack, the other in a QB hurry, then never seeing it again. That is the coaches "outsmarting" themselves, and that is seen as stupid. This is not rocket science, it's football, and when something is working you keep doing it until they stop it. These coached don't seem to understand the concept, which is freaky scary. We have a porous o-line. We know it and everyone in the league knows it, so why are we calling long developing plays on 3rd down against a team that loves to blitz on 3rd down? That's stupid. Why are we not utilizing the run and running the offense through the run game when we have two TOP running backs? The fact we don't is just plain ignorant. It's these types of things that cause us to question everything. We've all been watching football long enough to know these basic fundamentals, and to make matters worse, we watch good teams, successful teams do them all the time. WTF seems to make our coaches think they are special or exempt from doing what works? I think this is why the play-calling gets questioned so often.

This is a bad team with good talent. I’m sick of the excuses. I realize many people bear some burden here, but I place it squarely on Freddie. I said in the off-season and preseason that I was worried about his cockiness and arrogance and how he handled both. I said, though, that I would shut up about it, and let him prove that he knew what he was doing. He didn’t. He screwed it up with his nonchalant BS and refusing to hold his players accountable by anointing them ready and winners way before their time. I’ll never hear a thing from the people on this board who gave the very few of us questioning the early tactics of a man who has proven nothing in this league, and now they will all change the narrative.

We are going nowhere with Freddie unless he changes drastically. His leadership skills look horrible.

Freddie is bad for Mayfield, and that is my biggest concern.

Another disappointing season.

Chubb and Hunt running all over the Steelers
O-line getting beat like a red headed step child

So obviously we run the ball, right?
Jeesh

I agree Jules, this team wreaks of poor leadership. It’s totally unfocused, undisciplined, and ill-prepared

NEWS FLASH: We are missing much more than only one piece...

Ryan Day

Best be a multiple choice question. We got enough lousy to go around a few times and BM lowers the bar repeatedly. Back to taking sacks, predictable calls, missing people with lousy throws, and forcing bad choices into double coverage. Still fails to see some widee open people; his mind must be made up before the snap or he is being told to force it. If he can be better, we can be better. Just not there. This defense as played can't get off the field quickly.

Not certain I see much greatness in this offense. Not as called and not as run.

J/c

Lincoln Riley rumors to Cowboys, but I wonder if we could coax him here and pair him with a good DC

Yet with all Freddie's years of NFL experience he never called plays until last year when the change was made and there is some question as to whose plays were being used then. You have to put your players in a position to succeed and he does not do that.

j/c...

- The Browns just lost to a 3rd string QB missing his starting C, RB and top WR. Pathetic.

- The Browns OL was horrendous. This is priority in the offseason.

- Seibert had a nice punt.

- Absolutely miserable effort on defense.

- Game seemed to end after the final two minutes of the first half. Unraveled.

- Browns continue to shrink when it matters most.

- Red zone inefficiency was back.

- Kareem Hunt had zero carries in the second half. Inexcusable.

- We finally played a meaningful game in December and blew it. Now there are no more meaningful games the rest of season.

- Season is over. As is the usual theme......maybe next year.

if we cant get him, we need to pay whatever Urban Meyer wants

I seriously doubt he goes anywhere.

yeah I’m not an insider, just thinking out loud

Why would he? Top college jobs are far superior to NFL jobs.

One last thought. I never played DB, but I've always heard that you're supposed to "play the ball, not the man", which is pretty much what our DB's never do ... ever. Turn your head around man!

This is Ward's second year. It takes a few years (more than 2) before a CB starts to become decent.

Not ever having called a game as a OC - I doubt I would do better. But that isn't the point is it. The point is that our HC and OC - Freddie Kitchens - is the coach and is calling the plays and he is doing a woeful job of it. He and the team have had spells against teams and looked good. But then like today and the second half against the Seahawks as just two of MANY examples, he self implodes and does a terrible job ..... if you think 6 running plays in the entire second half is doing a good job of setting up your offense to be able to execute and have success then I disagree. Vehemently.

As for the comment about players need to execute - man that sure does remind me of a Hue-ism. Hue called a great game EVERY game didn't you know that? It was the player's who failed to execute .... Of course the other philosophy is that it's up to the Coach to call and design plays that his roster can execute and perform consistently. Maybe if Freddie is calling brilliant play after brilliant play and the players aren't executing .... maybe there is a clue there? This is the most talented team, even with injuries, we have ever had (since the return) and it's mind boggling that you apparently think the plays are brilliant. And if they aren't brilliant - are they good? Are they average? Calling passing plays virtually on every play of the second have and many that call for routes in excess of 12-15 yards when Pits D is finding a second gear and in Baler's face all day is not what I would call Brilliant, or good or even average. jmo

Well, currently they sit "in the hunt" for the WC and we don't. So....say what you will, but they are above us and we lost to them and their JV team.

Pittsburgh certainly is a playoff team ... maybe not on paper, but with their culture, expectations, results, etc.

We’re the exact opposite

We were in a spot to really give ourselves a chance for a wild card against probably the worst Steelers team at least in terms of skill players on the field that I can remember and we totally laid an egg.

Would the Browns match or exceed his $6,000,000+ salary at Oklahoma? Although if he ever went pro I'd rather see him at Cleveland than under obnoxious Jerruh Jones.

But seriously, the Browns need someone who understands the system Baker came out of, and tweak it to best utilize the personnel on the team. Even Freddie admitted talking to Riley at some point last year. However I don't have a clue who it would be other than Riley, and with the recruiting juggernaut going on at OU presently, there's No way he's leaving. I'll be glad when Jalen Hurts moves on, and Spencer Rattler takes over...it's going to be epic.

Thanks for that ... i *LMAO* ,....

We really missed him today ....

Play calling was an issue today ... ....

I’d say a very good D and us starting a waiver wire dude at LT had way more to do with it than Freddie’s play calling ...

Not running the ball one time with a 1st and 10 at the Steelers 30 with 7 minutes left in the game is inexcusable. I'm sorry, that is botched play calling. Especially when your offensive line is struggling in pass protection.

This was my biggest gripe as well ... that was a bad series of events

Freddie in his pressure ...
"we have to be able to run the ball"

Kinda hard to do, when you don't call run plays

At least we got to play 1 meaningful game in December.

It's not bad play calling. It's because of the Steelers really good D and our waiver wire LT. Because that's what you do against two solid edge rushers with OTs that can't start for a college team. You THROW the ball 3 plays in a row. Even after you have gashed them in the running game. That is pure GENIUS. Didn't you know? I will bet that if Freddie is let go just about EVERY team will be after his offensive play calling prowess. I mean, how could anyone pass? LMAO

Agreed. You knew the game was lost after that series. Not picking up 1 yard when you have 1st and 10 at their 30. Inexcusable!! But honestly, I didn't think we would win this game anyway. Frankly. I'd be surprised if we finished 8-8. 7-9 is more like it.

Again, I cannot see how anyone misses Freddie's pure GENIUS. You guys need to pay more attention to what is going on. Seriously. LMAO

66, you could put baker in whatever position you want, but when d linemen are in his face before he turns around it will not help. J.J. watt is their #1 pass rusher. If there is a player on defense our o line must account for it is him. Yet I saw on at least two occasions watt reach baker untouched by a blocker. That is not how our coaches drew it up guaranteed.

It does seem like baker is way less accurate than last year. Not sure why. Our defense let second stringers have their way with us. Our defense has way underperformed from expectations. Blaming our play calling for this disappointing season just does not cut it.

Did you ever notice how we double teamed their best pass rusher? Had a RB chip him? A TE stay in to block him to the inside or make him take a wider route around the outside? No - neither did I. I did see us continue to call plays that called for medium to deep routes that take time to develop.

These are excuses.

The Steelers were starting a 3rd string QB without any semblance of talented skill players and a backup center. They found a way to win. Why didn't the Browns?

I’m here too ... for years we’ve lamented having backup type talent playing against the Steelers All Pro teams ... now it’s flipped and they still beat us. Losers.

Don't think we get those last 2 wins against the Bungles. They at least played with a little emotion today.

We played like we are just running out the string.

We started out well, Duck took the shot on the deep ball when he had a free play and connected.. everything changed. It's the same old story, they started moving the ball on us, punched us in the mouth.. and we had no response.

Tackling was trash. Williams and Ward were both horrible in coverage. We got exactly zero pass rush on most plays.

McCray looked like the only player on the field who was playing in 6" of mud... good lord is he slow.

Offense was working well, running, short passes.. even the broadcasters said, we were playing to win a low scoring game... then when their O started to move the ball, we changed nothing.. our offense was literally non-existent from our touchdown until the 4th quarter.. no flow, no rhythm.. nothing.

It was disappointing to say the least..

Kitchens said after the game "we were ready to play".. yea, well we weren't ready to win... this was supposed to be a game of high emotion to prove we are the team that beat them handily in Cleveland.. and we showed no life.

I like Freddie but I think this game will go a long way to sealing his fate..

There d’s a wee bit better than ours ... not that, that matters ...

C ya’all in a few days ... someone needs to be lynched for this and Freddie makes himself a big ole target ...

Ya’all can enjoy your misery and bash Freddie party together ... c ya ...

Seriously? This is where the “Let’s Goooooo!” Is going now? Blaming injuries or key players not playing as an excuse? Against a team as injury riddled as the Steelers?

The Browns are a huge disappointment. You know damn well it goes beyond a waiver wire dude at LT. That’s hilarious.

And how do you stop a pass rush? You run the ball and we have probably the best 1,2 combo in the nfl. And if you have to pass you make sure to give those OTs help. And if you only need 5 yards you don't have all your WRs running routes 20 yds downfield.

All you can say is we bash Freddie and he's a target. You have not pinpointed one thing that Freddie did well today, or how he had the team preparted, or helped to put his players in position to succeed.

The offensive line is bad, we get that. So just keep calling pass plays with empty backfields while continuing to block TJ Watt 1 on 1 with Hubbard? Slow that pass rush down and uhhhhh manbye like call a run play or two?

This was probably the best thing you've posted.

I like your angle here. I don't necessarily say excuses, but we are a young team led by a young HC. I like to think we have the right people in place but we still lack a simple plan.

We can disagree on Baker, but if Baker was in Baltimore and we had Lamar, there's no doubt in my mind that Baker would flourish and Lamar would be struggling here.

I'm not sure we have the right GM or the right coach, or the right owner for that matter. We do, however, 100% have the right quarterback.

Winning is something we need to learn to do.

We sent some pretty bad players onto the field today, brought to you by a guy who once insisted we need to get "real" players. Hopefully the 3rd year is when he finally addresses this issue.

Owner is trash.

GM is fine, I think. Still has some credit left in the bank but has made some serious withdrawals.

Coach is trash.

QB is meh. He's not a winner bro. Sorry. Your best bet with Baker is to build the team up. He can't carry a team. That's unfortunate considering he was the number one overall pick. The evidence going back to Oklahoma UGA continues to mount.

But make no mistake. Leadership starts at the top and we are doomed as long as Haslam is the owner. Either commit to analytics or don't but the owner created a Dorsey vs. Depo situation and all that mattered to Dorsey was getting his way. And this is the result. It all starts with Haslam.

I disagree. Hubbard looked like he was in 6" of mud as well

I’ll agree w/both of you .. Hubbard and McCray were less than bad

Yawn !!! Beer tasted good

The Browns coaching staff and players job is to win games.

They suck at their job.

At least we now have "real players" losing games.



LOL

See, this is where Kitchens is completely incompotent.

1. This should be a running team first and foremost. The fact that Kitchens still can't to that is a firable offense alone.

2. Let's say you have injuries on O-line or your QB doesn't have that much time to throw because of the blitz. Depending on the QB, I'd throw it 30 yards deep and take my chances one-on-one but the majority of the time I'd throw a quick slant, maybe a screen pass or draw play might be appropriate.

If you know for a fact that your o-line can't block well, don't call plays that take a long time to develop. That goes for the run or the pass. No sweeps, no pitch plays. Run it straight ahead in I formation, which Kitchens doesn't know how that works.

3. The plays being called are garbage. Where are the play actions, the bootlegs, the rollout, power run formations. The wishbone that Freddie ran successfully last year? Where?

4. What does Monken do? Still not sure. Either way the whole playbook needs to be scrapped in my opinion.

5. Where is the team FB and why don't we have anyone playing that position? Pisses me off.

Hubbard is a "real player"?

That's just the pure GENIUS of Freddie and his play calling. No worries. LMAO

I've come to the conclusion that John Dorsey is threatened by people with stronger personalities who know more than him. Ala Andy Reid, Bruce Arians, Gregg Williams. Dorsey doesn't like it when individuals know more than him. Someone who isn't just a yes man. This is also a parallel to Art Modell and Paul Brown.

There may not be blatant facts to back that up but I get that feeling.

According to Dorsey he is...

The GM is probably the biggest question mark for me.

He still seems to be a glorified scout with no real plan.

I have no idea what he's doing and I'm not sure he does either. I had hopes for him and I'm thankful he brought us our franchise quarterback. He at least got that pick correct as he did with Chubb. The rest? We'll see.

OBJ trade seems like a waste. Was a mistake trading for Randall. It's ashame we have a continuous mess to clean up. Not to mention he sounds like the one who insisted on making Kitchens the HC.

I hope I'm wrong but Dorsey hadnt done a lot to instill confidence he's the correct guy for the job. But as a fan I hold out hope.

Beckham - 6 Targets, 3 receptions for 29 yards

Chubb - 16 rushes for 58 yards.

Are we even trying? Why did we trade for Odell?

I am still on the Dorsey train.

He has brought a lot of talent to this team that we haven't had since the return.

I'm sure he didn't think he could rebuild us from an 0-16 team to a Superbowl contender in 2 years.

Even though us fans, and the media, wanted to believe it.

There's some holes on this team. I'm sure he will address it in the offseason.

I'm not sure why he would pick Freddie as a HC. I have to wonder if there was some backdoor non-public reason.

I'd guess Freddie was just supposed to be a one year stop gap, and we will have something better for next season.

At least, I have to hope that.

I haven't given up on Dorsey, but there are question marks.

He brought talent and he also has dismissed a lot of talent. Peppers, Nassib, Avery, Ogbah to name a few.

Instead of filling holes, he's made several lateral moves. Trading defensive linemen for different defensive linemen. I love OBJ, but did we really need him? Trading away competent safeties for other safeties.

We could have signed Richardson. Signed Burnett and our defense might have been just fine without trading away Peppers and Zeitler for OBJ and Vernon.

I feel like there's a lot of unnecessary moves. Moves for the sake of making moves.

Nothing seems to have direction.

I don’t see the talent dorsey has supposedly brought in. I see unused players overrated FA and draft picks that were reached or didn’t pan out. Dorsey is the problem with this franchise. He built exactly what we are seeing. He forced the team to hire kitchens against better judgement. So this is a result

Nassib talented?

I guess it depends if you think Chad Thomas, Chris Smith, and Bryan Cox are better or not. I would take Nassib.

J/c

The OBJ trade certainly hasn’t worked out like we’d hoped. I’m hoping an offseason to develop timing and chemistry will help, but we’ll see

"We don't run the ball enough"
so the answer is get Lincoln Riley,a pure spread coach who's running game consists solely of the QB.
all you guys whining and proposing dumb stuff after a loss has keep me entertained for years.

He brought talent and he also has dismissed a lot of talent. Peppers, Nassib, Avery, Ogbah to name a few.

Jamie Collins, Kevin Zeitler, Jason McCourty to name a few more.

He has also given out ridiculous contract to players as well. Hubbard, Carrie, and I'm still on record about Vice Grips baby....Let's GoOOOOOO!

Can of worms.

Oklahoma ranks 9th in the league this year with 260 yards rushing at 6.4 yards per rush.

They run the ball quite a lot there, regardless of its a combination of QB and RB.

Cleveland Browns Postgame Scribbles: Having a hard time liking this team

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12...-this-team.html

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
PITTSBURGH - Scribbles in my notebook after the Browns lost to the Pittsburgh Steelers at Heinz Field on Sunday, 20-13:

1. During the bye week, coach Freddie Kitchens said the Browns weren’t a “team,” they were “a group.” I wrote they’re actually a group of individuals, and that was the case this week as they faced the Steelers.

2. The Browns assembled talent, but some of the pieces don’t seem to fit. Not all of the fault should be placed on Kitchens and his coaching staff. The front office has to take some of the blame. This is not fantasy football. It’s not simply a numbers game.

3. The loss to Pittsburgh showed how something remains amiss with the Browns in terms of having a heart and a single purpose. After the game, Pittsburgh coach Mike Tomlin said: “We were looking to strike a blow for team in these circumstances and stand up for the game of football.”

4. It was an emotional week for both teams. Seventeen days ago, the Browns beat the Steelers, 21-7, in Cleveland. That game was marred by the Myles Garrett-Mason Rudolph brawl, followed by major suspensions and millions of dollars in fines.

5. Before this game, I wrote how this could be a “defining moment" for Kitchens. I gave him some compliments for winning three in a row. He seemed to be learning on the job. Pittsburgh was the time and place to show that was correct.

6. I wrote the Kitchens column before he wore the “PITTSBURGH STARTED IT” T-shirt and before Damarious Randall was left back in Cleveland. Those were more signs of the team’s immaturity. Then it showed up on the field. After taking a 10-0 lead in the middle of the second quarter, they were outscored, 20-3, for the rest of the game.

7. Tomlin stressed how he didn’t want his players engaging in any of the off-field controversies: “We were about beating them today. That’s how you deal with that stuff. You beat them.”

8. About Kitchens’ T-shirt, Pittsburgh’s Ramon Foster told the media: “I’m glad Coach (Tomlin) doesn’t do anything like that.”

9. The T-shirt wasn’t why the Browns failed to deal with Pittsburgh’s pass rush. Baker Mayfield was sacked five times. He threw an interception. He lost a fumble. After starting 10-of-12 passing for 96 yards, he was 8-of-20 passing for 100 yards.

10. Pittsburgh found a way, especially in the second half, to make life miserable for Mayfield. The Steelers learned a few things from the 21-7 loss in Cleveland, and I’m not sure what the Browns learned.

11. The Browns have defeated Lamar Jackson and the Baltimore Ravens. They beat Josh Allen and the Buffalo Bills. Those two teams have a combined record of 19-5 this season. But they also have lost to Denver’s Brandon Allen (making his first NFL start) and Pittsburgh’s Devlin “Duck” Hodges (an undrafted NFL rookie).

12. The Browns have some big names and Pro Bowlers. But they are 5-7, despite acting at times as if they are 9-3. It’s a group of underachievers. There’s a sense at least some members of the coaching staff are over-matched.

13. Kitchens talked about “learning experiences” after the game. He talked about “matching the intensity” of the Steelers for the entire game. My sense is he doesn’t know what to say about some of the problems facing the team.

14. Then there is Odell Beckham Jr. Once again, there was a discussion about him not getting the ball enough. Right there is a problem. When so much of the focus is on getting a receiver the ball, it’s an alarm bell. That’s especially true when I don’t think Beckham is a better receiver for this team than Jarvis Landry.

15. Keep in mind, I wrote “a better receiver for this team,” not who is the more physically talented. That’s Beckham. But Landry is tougher and more consistent. He caught six passes for 76 yards. Most of them were very difficult receptions as he battled a defender for the ball.

16. Kitchens on Beckham (three catches, 29 yards): “I tried to call plays that worked. I tried to call plays to get him open. I tried to call plays to move the ball.”

17. According to ESPN Stats: “Odell Beckham has now gone six straight games without reaching 100 receiving yards for the first time in his career.”

18. The Steelers are 7-5. They opened the season 0-3 and lost Pro Bowl QB Ben Roethlisberger for the year. Hodges is their No. 3 QB. They beat the Browns with several backups in key positions. They are in the wild card race despite their injuries and issues. I wish I could one day write something like that about the Browns.

19. That’s why I wrote, “This wasn’t a loss, it was a disaster.” So many things were in place for the Browns to win. They even began the game the right way, but as the new T-shirts being sold in Western Pennsylvania read: “PITTSBURGH FINISHED IT.”

20. There are a lot of players on the Browns worthy of respect and your cheers. Many of them play with character and dignity. But as a whole, they aren’t much of a team. Too many side issues, too little endurance to run the long, painful race that is an NFL season. That’s why I find them difficult to enjoy.

FINAL NOTE: According to ESPN stats, the Browns are the only NFL franchise without a four-game winning streak since 2010. They also have lost 16 in a row in Pittsburgh. Yes, fans, it’s been that bad.

Cleveland Browns: This wasn’t a loss, it was a disaster

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/12/cleveland-browns-this-wasnt-a-loss-it-was-a-disaster.html


By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
PITTSBURGH – I’m tired of writing stories like this, stories about how the Browns lost to the Steelers in Pittsburgh.

Only this one – Sunday’s 20-13 verdict at Heinz Field – is different.

This one is not the usual theme of Pittsburgh having the superior team.

The Steelers don’t. Not this time. Not this year.

But the Steelers have the better coaching staff. They have the more mature players. They have a team that is used to winning, even with undrafted rookie and former No. 3 QB Devlin “Duck” Hodges starting at quarterback.

And the biggest defensive play of the game?

An interception by former Browns cornerback Joe Haden with 1:06 left in the game. Haden was cut by the Browns before the 2017 season.

Browns fans, I don’t know how you endure this year after year. I really don’t.

I’d like to say that I feel sorry for you, but those words are so hollow.

You deserve better.

I’m not simply talking about a team that beats Pittsburgh.

I am talking about a team with more discipline, more maturity and a smarter coaching staff.

THIS IS RIDICULOUS

Starting safety Damarious Randall was left home because of a “coach’s decision.” The Browns never gave a reason, but one report was he missed practice.

“That’s between me and Damarious,” was all head coach Freddie Kitchens would say about it. Other reports said it was an attitude problem.

Regardless of the indiscretion, this was Steelers week.

It was a chance for the Browns to win a fourth consecutive game. It was an opportunity to be 3-0 in the division and good enough to keep thinking about a wild card playoff spot.

It was a time for the Browns players and coaches not to simply be on the same page, but in the same sentence. That’s not the case with this team, even though Kitchens insisted several times after the game: “We were ready to play.”

The Steelers connected on a couple of long passes. Would Randall have made a difference? Would he have played better than Sheldrick Redwine, making his first pro start?

No one knows.

But a veteran such as Randall is supposed to be there for the team in a game like this.

The Browns were already without Pro Bowl defensive end Myles Garrett. He is suspended at least for the rest of the season for his helmet-swinging role in the brawl. That was at the end of the Browns’ 21-7 victory over the Steelers on Nov. 14.

Two major defensive starters out... not because of injuries, but discipline issues.

LEADERSHIP ISSUES

I doubt it had an impact on the game, but it does point to the state of mind of Freddie Kitchens.

I’m talking about Kitchens wearing a “PITTSBURGH STARTED IT” T-shirt to a movie Friday night. The coach knows this is the age of social media. Someone was going to take his picture.

Kitchens explained his daughters bought him the shirt and wanted him to wear it when they went to the movie. He said, “I wore a coat.”

But when he posed for the picture with a fan, the coat was open and that led to another Browns embarrassment.

This is the same coach who spent all week telling the players to not think about the brawl with the Steelers, to concentrate on the next game.

I expect players to make mistakes like this, but not coaches who are paid millions of dollars per year.

“The T-shirt had nothing to do with this game," said Kitchens.

But it’s silly, needless actions such as this which reflect poorly on the rookie head coach.

WHAT HAPPENED?

Then you look at the game plan the Browns had for Pittsburgh... and what happened?

The Browns lost to a Steeler team without its star QB (Ben Roethlisbeger), best wide receiver (JuJu Smith-Schuster), top running back (James Conner) and Pro Bowl center Maurkice Pouncey (suspended).

The Browns were up 10-0 in the middle of the second quarter. The Steelers made some adjustments. Then the Browns just looked like a bunch of guys who couldn’t find their cellphone, staggering around feeling lost.

Baker Mayfield opened the game completing 10-of-12 passes.

After that, the Browns QB was 8-of-20 passing. He was sacked five times.

Kitchens simply gave up on the running game in the second half, only six carries.

The score was only 17-10 in the middle of the third quarter. There was no need to become hooked on passing, but Kitchens did. That played into the strength of the Steelers, who continually blitzed and sacked Mayfield.

PAINFUL ENDING

The Browns defense had Pittsburgh backed up to the Steeler 1-yard line with 5:35 left in the game. The score was 20-13.

Stop 'em, force 'em to punt. The game isn’t over.

Instead, the Steelers pounded the ball, chewing up four minutes and moving the ball out to the Pittsburgh 47-yard line. Then the Steelers punted, the Browns threw the interception.

Ball game.

“We are looking to strike a blow for team,” said Pittsburgh coach Mike Tomlin. “We wanted to show we could win without some key people. I’m proud of winning under the circumstances we were under."

Too bad the Browns couldn’t say the same thing about their team.

j/c:

For as much heat as Freddie is getting, and rightfully so, I'm a little surprised Dorsey hasn't been getting blame. I guess I've seen a few posts from yesterday, but that's it. Just an underwhelming group of players who are overpaid and not performing.

But, you know, it was all about that roster turnover!

This was one of the bigger concerns regarding Dorsey when he came here... poor player valuation regarding contracts. I also agree with a couple of other posters regarding the possibilty (not definitive) of being just a glorified scout with no process or long-term plan and might not be capable of accepting people's opinion of those who are smarter than he is.

Since the jump, I've found it very hard to listen to Dorsey in press conferences. And for the record, I've been one who says press conference are essentially meaningless, but listening to that guy talk is nothing more than rambling and incohesive run-on sentences. I'm not sure there is much of a plan outside of aquiring what he sees as talent regardless of cost or the future in mind and just runs with it.

Glad he flexed those muscles on Kitchens so far though.

Still think we have our franchise QB because of him, however.

I’m convinced this team will never amount to anything until they hire that John Krese kinda guy. A guy that preaches “No mercy” a guy that I still hate and absolutely beating teams into a pulp showing not one ounce of mercy. The guy that teaches the Browns the same dirty game of football the Steelers play.

The Browns are too nice and have no heart and nothing short of a John Krese kinda personality is going to fix that.

can anyone give me a reason to keep Freddie other than continuity?

As of right now?.....No. No, I cannot.

At this point you have to wonder where the Browns would be if Sashi got to finish what he started.

He embarrassed himself and the franchise with that t-shirt stunt. Then he embarrassed himself on the field by not backing it up. In week 12. He's learned nothing.

Hard to gamble that he will.

Drawing to inside straights is not a sane lifestyle. Snappy explanations for losses. We were outplayed yesterday, not outmatched. Which team played like they were prepared best?

And what if Haslem didn't get in the way and hired Hue instead of McDermott who, reportedly, EVERYONE else wanted.

Clearly the decision to pick Hue over Sashi was a complete joke.

The players who were jettisoned from Cleveland by Dorsey just because they were players from the last regime are doing well, even mid-round guys in back up roles. Hell, Carl Nassib as 5 sacks and a forced fumble as a depth guy! Before Ogbah tore his pec and is now out for the year, he was performing better than Vernon, who we're paying $13M!

What's happening here is mind-bogglingly (word?) frustrating.

There was a plan before and we all new what it was. I don't see a plan or a direction with what this team wants to be and where it wants to go. Just a bunch of guys doing their own thing.

And the Haslems are a complete dumpster fire. Good to know when they step down completely, we have JW Johnson waiting in the wings. The guy people said, when he got a Exec. VP role out of absolutely nowhere, "Oh, his background is media/marketing. I don't know what the big deal is."

Fools.

Again, I'm a person that absolutely hates coaching changeover. You guys do realize that by changing over coaches, we're essentially signing up for 1-2 more seasons like this one before we get better, right?

New HC --> New coordinators --> New systems --> new players/turnover

But that said, Freddie has gone back to doing the things that absolutely infuriate me. Starting LT out? That's fine, lets leave both our tackles on islands against their beast DEs. Let's get away from what was working in the first half and only run the ball a couple times (against said pass rush). Chubb was running tough (as always), and Hunt finished with 4 yards/carry.

The most disappointing thing, by far, is our defense. We have waaaaaay too much talent to fold like a cheap tent. And yeah... injuries/suspension, but moreso for their offense. They had a 3rd string QB, and missing their starting center, #1WR, and #1RB. Inexcusable.

Dorsey is fine. Nobody hits 1000, and this team has young, promising talent. His moves are for the long-run, not for this year.

As for Freddie, I hate coaching changes with a passion, but I also hate watching a coach essentially shoot the offense in both feet.

Completely disagree. His moves were made to make a run starting this year. Whether by a Haslem directive or by his own accord, all the FA signings and trades for veterans (including giving up a first rounder) were not for 2-3 years down the line. They were for NOW!

I'm not sure I buy this anymore. Let's assume we have our QB, and I have reservations that we do, a good coach should be able to come in and get this turned around quickly. We need a leader who focuses on the right things and puts the Browns first. That's all that is needed.

I used to be in the continuity group, but I'm almost to the point where you need to keep changing coaches and QBs until you get it right. How do you know you got it right? By the product on the field...and I'm not talking wins and losses.

We have a large number of players who have regressed this year...Baker, Randall, OBJ, Ward, Ogunjobi, Garrett suspended, Njoku healthy scratch. These were supposed to be building blocks to the future. This has happened under Freddie's watch. The product is awful.

Take the Texans, for example. They've had some ups and downs this year, but have a winning record and bounce back games. No drama. No stupidity. You look at that and say O'Brien deserves another year. What has happened under Freddie's watch to be willing to risk another year? This clown wore a T-shirt that motivated an opposing team prior to their game and he doesn't see anything wrong with it.

I would like to see a list of all the accomplishments...good things...Freddie has done this year.

J/c

The Browns are still the only team I’ve ever seen that when their opponent goes up by a score in the 3rd quarter acts like the game is lost and out of hand. Flat and no fight!

Who is our DB coach? He needs to be fired. Ward and Greedy are top talents but are being wasted. I’m sick and tired of seeing them not looking for the day one ball! I also don’t know why we don’t seem to see Money Mitch out there more.

When’s the last time we had a coach who treated the Steelers game like it mattered? I get that you have to win some for it to be a legit rivalry but if you never treat the game seriously or with due respect, how the hell do you expect to win more?

We saw improvement over the last few games, but Freddie is not mature enough in his own right to keep it together. He’s better off as a position coach and player liaison if you ask me. Once we gave up an 11 yard run after pinning them to the one, I told the fan next to me that I wasn’t even sure I wanted us to drive down and score a TD. I didn’t trust Freddie to kick the PAT to send it in to overtime instead of trying to get too cute and go for two.

Freddie tosses away literally every opportunity to turn anything about this team around:
- he can’t make effective use of all-pro level talent
- he can’t capitalize on momentum changing events like turnovers
- he can’t establish this offense as ANYTHING recognizable
- he can’t embrace a culture changing event like the first game against Pittsburgh

I don’t care about his BS learning curve. If we have to have patience while an all-pro level roster is held back by its HC then ticket and merchandise prices should be reduced until he’s ready to perform the job he was friggin hired to do.

Are there any tech geniuses out there that can super impose the Browns uniforms on to the players in The Replacements? I think I’d enjoy watching that every week more than a Kitchens led team.

Will OBJ have to participate in training camp or just be allowed to spend 90% of camp on the sidelines watching during team drills and only participate in individual drills?

That will depend on who's coaching the team.

Williams AND Ward suck and have sucked all season... well, except for the four games they missed after being hit with sniper fire after being hit by a bus - wait what's that, they had strained hammy's? Oh, that's cute.

Dixon and Minnifield they are not.

.

I actually think Wilks is doing a great job given the pieces he has right now. I know a lot of people see that they Steelers were missing a few key players and see that as a reason to criticize the defenses performance, but if you look at it objectively, the Brown's defense wass dinged up way worse than the Steelers offense.

By the second half yesterday, Richardson, Thomas, and Vernon were mostly on the sideline. Only one of the remaining DL, Ogunjobi, was even on the opening day roster. So that means our D-line was mostly practice squad players.

At linebacker, only Schobert was an opening day starter.

In the secondary, only Ward was the opening day starter.


Despite all of these injuries, the defense has held teams under 30 points consistently since the NE game. The offense needs to score more than 13 points to stand a reasonable chance of beating Pittsburgh or almost any other team. Like previous games, the defense did their part by creating turnovers at the right time and the offense and head coach mismanaged the situation and botched the opportunities that the defense created.

In the second quarter, After the offense was successful with the running game and was eating up clock, Pittsburgh moved down the field, but the defense made a stand in the redzone and forced a field goal. As far as I was concerned, that was a defensive victory. Our offense gets the ball back with under 3:00 left in the half with a chance to score and ensure that Pittsburgh does not get another possession. What do we do? We take Chubb out of the game and go shutgun three straight plays, then punt, taking just over a minute off of the clock. Then Pittsburgh scores on a possession that never should have happened.

Pittsburgh then gets possession and momentum to start the second half and they quickly tack another 10 points on.
Down 10 in the fourth, I figured the game was over, but then we get the field goal and Hodges throws up a really stupid interception and we have a shot to come back. 7:18 left in the game, plenty of time to run the ball. We throw the ball three straight times and get knocked out of field goal range.

At this point I figure the game is over, because there was no way that our beatup defensive line is stopping Pittsburgh from running out the clock, but to their credit, they forced one more punt and gave the offense a full two minutes to score.

Bottom line: Wilks is doing a great job in my book. He is working with a lot of practice squad players that opposing teams are going to go after, but he has still managed to put the offense in great position to win the game.

Is it the DB coach or is it Wilks' scheme? Ward and Greedy are better suited for man coverage. Wilks plays more zone coverage. Wilks not adapting his scheme to fit his players strengths is a problem.

Here's an article discussing it upon the hiring of Wilks...

https://www.draftace.com/2019/02/20/steve-wilks-wrong-coach-denzel-ward/

75 was the highest grade according to PFF?

Yikes.

I think they are playing plenty of man coverage. And by and large they are providing tight coverage. My issue is that I at least consistently see them NOT looking for the ball which results in missed opportunities to INT, knock the ball down or a PI call. I see this game after game and their coverage was tight enough and the Steele’s receivers pedestrian enough that Duck shouldn’t have been connecting on what were essentially jump balls.

Memphis,
I liken win-now to picking up aging vets and spending big money in FA. OBJ trade should've worked out better this year than it did, but we got a top top tier WR that's just hitting his prime. That should be a transaction that helps us much more over the long haul (but should've helped more in year 1). We traded our top-tier guard, but had a fill-in that failed (again, nobody bats 1.00). Peppers is a very good SS. Those can be found/developed.
All of that speaks to long-term plans. And nothing speaks more to long-term plans than hiring a coach with a (relatively) limited resume.

Rishuz,
I don't necessarily agree with you list of players that have regressed, but I don't argue that Freddie has VASTLY disappointed in many aspects of his coaching. And you say that coaches should be able to come in and get a team rolling right away, but how many times has that NOT happened here? Too many times. For whatever reason, I just don't think that's possible in Cleveland. I have no defense for Freddie's coaching, I'm just not sure that we're better off getting rid of him knowing we're going to take a hit talent-wise.

DevilDawg,
Yeah...

We showed a lot of man yesterday in order to try to rush 5 or 6 (which the Steelers still picked up every time).
When Hodges saw that we were showing man coverage, he was attacking it. All I saw was Ward losing that battle repeatedly.

I haven't seen anything all year long to indicate that Ward is a great man coverage corner. He has the speed and agility to keep up with most receivers, but he does not do a good job at breaking up the catch with his hands.

True or false assumptions?

--Our OTs' are trash
--Our CBs' are over rated (one is a rookie that should be on the bench, and the other continually plays like one)
--$Mitch is our best CB
--Our KO return men need to use better judgment, on when to take it out or take a knee
--Our Coach and play caller gets too cute with his gadget plays at all the wrong times
--Our game plan does not play to our players strengths (ie; protection)
--Our in game and halftime adjustments are a figment of our imagination
--Our Coach says that we need to be able to run the ball, but fails to call run plays in the second half so that they can run the ball

Misfit toys with seemingly no plan on how to use them or philosophy on how or what type of team they are trying to build.

Acquire talent and cross the fingers that the pieces fit.

Why such a regression from this year to last? Ward didn't lose his talent all of a sudden.

Coaching.

Ward has the same position Coach as last season.

So no! I would not place blame on coaching.

My guess this is why Dorsey isn’t getting much heat at the moment. We have a talented and workable roster. The problem is that isn’t the players job to define the culture and direction of the team. We’re still dealing with young, generally immature men who’ve never really had that level of responsibility. Unfortunately we seem to have a HC who isn’t much more mature then they are.

So if it’s not coaching and it’s not talent... that leaves attitude. Which with how improper attitude and lack of discipline has been a recurring theme this season... we may have found the culprit

He also has a different defensive coordinator.

The overall regression of several players on the team is alarming.

Perhaps Ward has an inflated opinion of himself and his play, that he believes in his own mind that he is an elite CB already.

He is not.

Well now that the great and talented Sashi is doing the same job for that other NFL team.......

Wait, no, never mind.

The entire NFL witnessed what Sashi did here. That's why he has a a much smaller role on an NBA team now.

I don’t know... what we’re seeing in Miami seems to be a show we’ve seen before...

I have no idea what that's in reference to.

Jarvis Landry said the last-play interception “was my fault,”

From Pat McManamon...

“Just a little bit off on the seam throw,” Mayfield said, bringing new meaning to the words “a little bit.”

“It was my fault,” Landry said.

The ball looked behind you, Landry was asked, what happened?

“I’m just taking the blame,” Landry said. “It was my fault.”

On the sidelines after the play, photographers from Cleveland.com took shots of Landry in what was labeled a heated discussion with quarterbacks coach Ryan Lindley. Christian Kirksey (on injured reserve) and others eventually stepped between the pair.

Ah yes, we've reached the TMZ portion of the season....

Blame somebody Monday's.

Start at the top work your way down.

Haslam, Dorsey, Freddie, Baker and then list any player that comes to mind.

This team has underachieved. There are no excuses to cover losing to third string quarterbacks and depleted rosters.

Is the talent overrated? Probably depends on who you ask.

From my perspective I can see no reason why the Browns are not better than a 500 team.

So, Haslam hired Dorsey. Dorsey promoted Freddie to head coach. Dorsey made the roster. Freddie coached the team.

If Freddie is at fault so is Dorsey for hiring him.

Now what?

Play out the season. Evaluate the season in it's entirety.
Make a decision on if Freddie is worth developing or not.
If not then who? Begin another search. Look at all available candidates. Determine what the criterion is to hire a new coach. Find the right guy.

This season is a huge disappointment. What began with great optimism has ended with yet more failure.

For myself I will pay attention from a distance. Will not fall victim to any hype again. Will watch the first game next year and see what we have. The prediction game is over.

"Did"? How about what he started. And although I'm not anti-Dorsey, I agree with Rishuz - I do wonder what Sashi would have accomplished if he were allowed to continue...

I hope they can get G Williams back if its possible just admit they made a mistake with FK and bring back a winning coach even malarkey was their for the taking and they hired an unknown guy over a winning coach, I was baffled over that but I,ve baffled since 99 ….and the craziness continues. Man there has to be someone out there to stop the bleeding you would think.

Sadly this team has become all about everything but football .. its a ship without a captain

Freddie presser today....

All you have to do is look at the rosters while he was here to see what he would have done. He was an "I can blow it up real good" guy. Nothing in his resume' gave any indication he knew how to build a team.

The rest of the NFL could see that. I guess there are a few on this board who think they're smarter than the other 31 NFL teams that wouldn't even offer him a job.

One thing I am certain of Dorsey will not hire GW as head coach.

How many times have we heard this before? What's the counter up to (hint, it's about as many as we have losses)?

Honestly, there's no point in saying 'oops' unless you fix your mistakes.

Eh, winners win. Losers lose.

Why would Landry be mad at Lindley?

Wonder if Lindley was blaming him for something?

Stop guessing, Pit, for in my case, you'd be wrong. I have never pretended to be smarter than the guys who actually do the job. I admit to liking most of what Sashi was doing while at the same time hoping that Dorsey succeeds. Nothing wrong about wondering what Sashi could have accomplished. Maybe in the draft he would have traded out of the #1 spot and selected Josh Allen a few spots down. See how that works, Pit?

I see all 31 other NFL teams knew better and yet a few still claim to wonder.

I see how it works. Hindsight, conjecture and guesswork with zero substance to base any of it on.

Actually, to be fair, Mayfield would have been the analytics pick as well. Josh Allen would have been the "football" buy pick - as his body is the prototypical type.

Of course it's all conjecture. Playing the Devil's Advocate: Would you rather have...

Sean McDermott and Josh Allen, or

Freddie Kitchens and Baker Mayfield?

Probably doesn't belong in this thread, but simply having fun here...

How many times has Freddie stated he "should have run the ball" in various situations? It seems to me he is not learning from his mistakes, as all good coaches should do, and it is showing up in the W/L column.

The problem you actually have is that there is zero evidence that Sashi had any ability to build a team. None.

agreed ,,, it happened in weeks 1, 3, 5, etc

j/c...

We've gone from Romo/Nantz status to the Mowins/Barber level...

You know the saying about an absence of evidence is not proof...

Without going back, do you not believe that Sashi had some success in players selected and compiling picks? (I do realize this is likely a fruitless discussion and I have no intention in prolonging it).

Hmmmm...we get the bottom of the barrel announcers. Probably deservedly so. The Bills/Ravens game should be interesting. I wonder who will have more rushing yards Lamar or Josh?

I believe that over time he managed to hit on some picks. Not a bunch but a few. Not play makers you need to build a franchise.

And let me repeat this, if you consistently trade down you will always compile picks.

I know the saying. But absence of proof is also evidence.

I have ZERO confidence in sweeping the Bengals. Frustrating.

Baker needs to shave that thing off his face. It looks bad.

JC. Sashi is gone. Hue is gone. Dorsey is here. Kitchens is here. How about we deal with what is instead of what was? Its beyond tiresome.

So is talking about another lost season. However, you can't be wrong speculating on alternative reality...

Then you and the 4-5 others who actually still care about Sashi - pro or con - should take it to PMs because the rest of us don't need it polluting every single football thread where it can be even tangentially related.

It looks as though we may end up 8 - 8 .. after 7 - 8 -1 a year ago .. The difference ? A win vs Pittsburgh at home vs a tie. BUT .. The tie was against a BETTER Steelers team .. a team that had Ben, Conner, Ju Ju and Antonio Brown. Even with the Hue/Haley drama, the 2018 Browns were a probably better TEAM than the 2019 version. Who'd have thunk it ....

Nobody would have thought it based upon the way the team played in the second half.

And here we are.

Haslam is the at the top. I doubt that he has given up on Dorsey. If he fired Dorsey it would be shocking.

Dorsey could fire Freddie? A guy he went out on a limb for. Firing him would be admitting a mistake. Not many would do that after a year.

Freddie has made himself ruler of the offense.

Wilks was a one a done guy before.

Most head coaches come from one side of the ball. Then they hire a coordinator to run the other side.

Did we fail because of offense, defense, or both?

Going into the season many stated that the defense was the strength. Some felt we would be an offensive leader.

Truth is neither has been playoff caliber.

You may want to give Pit a "heads-up"...

I'm not board police. When I put "JC" (just clicking) at the beginning of my post on this subject, it meant I was replying to the thread. In other words: the usual suspects. You know, the ones who think this bleep is endlessly interesting.

and we'll have to go 3-1 over the last 4 to accomplish that.

I'm afraid that will never happen.

Which doubly angers me because I saw no reason to change much of anything. I was perfectly fine with the idea of keeping things as they were at the end of that season and hiring a replacement DC. The smartest choice would have been to impose the least amount of shake-up to a bunch that was just starting to find itself.

That setup was working, and the team was rolling.
It wasn't broke, but Dorsey 'fixed' it anyway.

The minute the news broke that GWilliams was out and FK was the new HC, I had doubts. Not because of Freddie himself, but for all the same reasons we talk about all the time:

New everything, all over again.... just like every other time here in CLE dating back to Butch Davis.

When this 2019 team got put together at TC, I was already thinking/talking about an 8-8 team. There was simply too much of the Browns product that was new, untested and unproven.

New coaching staff (again, dammit)
New schemes
New high-profile moving parts (OBJ and FA's)
New O weapon combinations that need time to get worked out
New... well, you get the picture.

"Same as it ever was."

Dorsey assembled a Ferrari, placed it on the track, and handed the keys over to a first-time driver.

That's why Browns have always looked crazy to you (+ me) ever since '99... they just keep making the same boneheaded moves, generation after generation.

Truth be told- as much as I love this team and was intrigued by all the shiny parts Dorsey collected, I never really got too excited about what they might become for 2019.

It's super-frustrating right now, because our team has NEVER been this loaded with raw talent since The Return... and it's being squandered by a crew of strangers who don't seem to know how to use and develop them into a system that works, long-term.

It's really disappointing.
But it's not surprising.

We're Browns Fans, after all-

I think that’s from the law school that teaches hearsay is sometimes better than direct evidence...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

NOT BETH MOWINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd rather listen to nails scrape down a chalkboard.

Good thing we have Jim and Doug.

j/c...

And zero 2nd half carries....

So our highest graded player in any regard was a 75 (Redwine). Talk about laying an egg

Worst is to be questioning all.

SF last year was terrible, and look at them now.

We are in a good position for next season. We probably need a new HC and a good backup QB,and some players is some positions,but nothing major.

And to be fair to that, we have yet to see evidence Dorsey can do that here. He can build talent, but not a team.

J/C

Cam Heyward is on local Pitts radio right now. Hes talking about the game, saying that all week Tomlin just preached about focusing on football. Don't worry about two weeks ago, appeals, media, or tshirts. Focus on football, do your job, beat your man on the play and they would win. Talked about protecting the left side on the defense (making baker not roll right), and keeping him in the pocket which they focused on adjusting at halftime with Tomlin.

COACHING MEANS SOMETHING ladies and gents.

Lol so you mean he wasn’t worried about his T-shirt fashion

Winners can run their mouths and dictate terms of the history of the battle. Coaching matters, agreed. So does preparation and mental toughness and other intangibles. They plated harder with more heart and desire. And I believe we had them. just crappy day. Again.

Actually they asked him about wearing a "Pittsburgh finished it" shirt, and he said "man, I aint that stupid. nah, ill wear normal sweats."

Everything else you stated is built by a good coach though.

Making sure your players have heart is on the GM, keeping them focused and prepared is on the HC.

We have neither.

I think FK said something like "I Wish I didn't call that play" after the game icing interception Well no S--t Sherlock we only got the best running tandem in the game ,and our QBs hand was hurting watta dunce he is and Dorsey shoud have fired him on the spot and started to look for a real head coach, man I am getting sick of this b.s.

Regardless of how you look at our situation we have problems. I posted on another thread that I thought Freddie was a good gamble based on what happened last year. Sadly, it doesn't look that way now. We need a coach that commands respect, teaches discipline and holds the players accountable. I know John Dorsey hired Freddie but I can't blame him as I said the situation looked good when he did it. JD took a shot with Freddie and it didn't work out. Another thing I don't understand is why the Haslams are getting ripped? I haven't heard anything about them interfering. It seems like they gave control to JD and he has been making the decisions. All in all it looks like we will have a new coaching staff next year but I think there will be some interest because of the talent we have. It just needs to be utilized better with the addition of a few new players.

I would have rather watched Myles Garrett in another fight, seriously.

1. Rumors are that Freddie was hired because JD didn't want anyone that would clap back at him. Which seems to be the case with some of these weird roster moves we are seeing, if you asking me.

2. Every organization, runs top to bottom. Haslams are at the top. Just like Freddie being Dorseys failure, Dorsey is their failure. It all leads back to the owner, if you team doesn't win -your damned if you do and damned if you don't. That still lays at your feet, as you own the team. Fair, maybe not. But ill take the blame for a couple billion of dollars

I think that's less true now than before. Haslam hired Dorsey, and there's a reason we call him 'King John'. Browns are his show to run. Haslam let him pick that coach and let him set the org structure. While I agree with you that that guy at the top is responsible for everything, in terms of what we're talking about here (players picked up/released, coaches hired, etc) it's all Dorsey.

First Pit would actually have to give a damn. I don't.

The job of a GM is to give the coaches the talent to create a winning team. We saw him do it in KC. The talent is there with the addition of a few moving parts. Rome wasn't built in a day even though many Browns fans seem to feel otherwise.

Thus far, from a strictly talent standpoint, Rome is ahead of schedule.

Let me put this on a level maybe even you can understand.

I've never flown a jet. How would you like to take a flight to Vegas this week-end with me as the pilot?

Yeah, I didn't think so. But, I mean just because I've never flown a jet doesn't mean I can't, right?

Hey, free trip to Vegas?

I'm in as long as you're the one flying it and not the one landing it.

Rumor has it that OBJ runs the wrong routes too. And nobody likes spreading rumors more than the folks on Dawgalkers.

Well I've never done that before either. But just because I never have doesn't mean i can't, right?

I guarantee that you can.... at least once

You bet your ass I can!

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but did you see who was right behind Carson when he downed that awesome punt on the one yard line? The Scottish Hammer! Gotta love that guy.

j/c

One last gripe, and I'll leave this awful experience in the past where it belongs.

One of the most frustrating things about last Sunday was that many of the teams Browns needed to lose did just that. CLE had a prime opportunity to advance their case for the post season and blew chunks like a cheap retread on I-75.

Let’s say you get on a flight to Vegas and Freddie is the pilot. He says he can fly the plane and he has a license. And you do know he has experience flying smaller planes.

How long do you sit on the tarmac sweating waiting for take off while he tries to figure out how to work the controls and is a constant state of denial on the obvious before you realize he’s not the pilot for that trip?

I always said the Browns were making the playoffs for sure if they win out. They controlled their own destiny.

Instead they once again embarrass themselves.

Apples and oranges my friend. Dorsey already made the choice to fly with Freddie.

And some others..

And hopefully he will realize this was a HUGE error and correct in the offseason. Freddie is not the guy. Not mature enough. Not a leadership figure. Playcalling is suspect. Game management is questionable. This roster cannot wait around 2-3 more years for a coach to figure out how to do his job. That's how I see it.

After 12 games as a first time HC that's a lot of conclusions to draw.

Only took me 3 games to figure that out.. He's a repeat of Hue.. You know the first time HC and want to be OC at the same time..

Freddie should have learned from Hue's mistakes..but he didn't..he acts just like him..

Maybe Freddie should have learned to be a HC first.. then work his way into multi tasking..

Really late on this, but it's been an unbelievably long week, and this is my first chance to really sit down grab my laptop.

Really disappointed in the defense on Sunday, that's twice now that we got beat by undrafted rookies making their first start, c'mon man.

I like some of the things that Steve Wilks as done, but why in the hell do our corners make no play on deep balls? They always end up with their helmet in the chest of the receiver, it's either a flag, or the guy ends up with the ball. It's embarrassing, and it absolutely killed us.

I like Freddie, I think he can be a coordinator in the league a long time, but I don't think the players respect him. I think they like him a lot too. I think they like playing for him, but I don't think they respect him. Obviously, he doesn't have the cache built up that a guy who has been a head coach for 10 years has. Everyone has to start somewhere and prove yourself, but I don't think these guys have bought in.

I thought Baker hung in there with the bad hand, but he had a chance to do something special at the end of the game, and he had a bad throw. He's gotta get better. I think he will. It's tough with young quarterbacks. People rode Mitch Trubisky all year, and he's actually starting to play a little better. I think we gotta keep being patient.

There are a lot of things I just don't understand with this team, and it's so frustrating. Their problems aren't huge overwhelming issues. It's all this little stuff that snowballs into losing by a touchdown, losing by less than a touchdown, being in the game the whole time, and just falling short. The Seattle game, the Denver game, this last game. Just a bunch of stupid little stuff that can derail a season. They aren't doing every little thing that you see a Belichick-coached team do. The Patriots are not, and have not ever really been a dominant team. They aren't built like that. They just outdo you every game. They do all the little things. They aren't blowing out teams every week. With the exception of that last super bowl, all of their others were one score-last minute wins. It's more impressive than just steamrolling through the league. They just find ways to win. From Brady down to guys on special teams.

I don't know if there is a coach out there that can get that out of these guys. More than half the league is looking for that coach.

No worries! We have just enough fuel to reach the crash site. Buckle up because the Browns Air Limited isn't done scaring us this season. Flight Freddie thanks you for flying NFL coach.
Please wait for the touchdown as we circle some more.

I can't add a thing to this post, so I'll simply repost it for max exposure. This is just so dead on-point.

Browns can be anything they want to be and I'll mostly go along with it. Just don't be bush league.
I don't ask for much, but I do ask that you don't embarrass me for wearing your colors.

While I don't totally disagree with your opinion on Kitchens, I would like to remind you that Belichick went 6-10, 7-9 and 7-9 his first three years as an NFL HC.

Totally get that, like I said, everyone needs to build their own cache. Nobody just takes over control of a team for the first time, and commands respect. Belichick also changed the way he coached in New England, learning from some of his mistakes in Cleveland. We all know by the end of his Cleveland days, he had that team on the right path.

We're only 12 games into Kitchens' entire head coaching career, and while it's a little unfair to judge him after only 12 games, there are things that are concerning and bothersome, and none of them have to do with stupid t-shirts, or what he does with his own free time.

I'm not going to parade in the fire Freddie crowd, but I think if they are able to identify someone who can get his team to do everything little thing possible to win, then they should fire him, but I don't think they should for the sake of it. We've seen so many offseasons where coaches get hired and fired, and it really shows that not every year do you see a really good coaching candidate. I think they should be patient, and find someone who really fits the bill. I don't think they did that. I think they saw a guy who was already in the building, had turned around an offense, and thought maybe they could carry over last year's positives. It didn't work, and it looks bad.

For the record, I love Chico Rivera, and I think he would be a great fit for the Browns. I don't know if they are even serious about considering him, but he would be the strong, respected leader that this organization so very badly needs.

I just think it's unrealistic for anyone, including Dorsey to think Freddie was going to come out gangbusters in his first year as a HC at any level, much less the NFL level.

I can't say whether they will give Freddie another year to see if he can right the ship or not. What I can say is that if anyone could not have seen this as a very possible scenario, they were pretty shortsighted.

I brought it up after the hire. He made a huge jump from starting off 2018 as a positional coach, to beginning 2019 as a head coach. I said it with Hue Jackson. Being a good coordinator does not equal you to be a great coach. I don't even think they are one in the same. You have to be able to handle the entire roster, the practice squad, your staff of coaches. It's a lot. He went from handling a few players to handling the whole damn thing. It's too much for him right now. Can he come out of this, and end up a good coach? Sure, but after 12 games, I don't see them doing everything they can to win. They have mostly won games on talent.

Have they stolen a game yet? They have 5 wins. The Jets, Ravens, Bills, Steelers, and Dolphins. They didn't steal any of them. They were all pretty dominant wins other than the Bills game.

But how many were stolen from them? You could argue quite a few. Seattle ripped one right from them. The Steelers did last week. Denver did.

It's concerning. I don't think it'a death sentence for Freddie, but like I said, these guys aren't doing eveyrything to win for him. They haven't bought in.

We agree to a point and disagree to a point. We certainly agree on the steep learning curve it takes to make such a leap on the coaching ladder. I mean he only had half a season as an NFL coordinator.

And we also agree they aren't doing everything they need to do to win. I guess the possible difference is that I think understanding how to do that and having the ability to do that takes time too.

The ability to get people to buy in, on a football field or anywhere else, is such a rare quality.

I love dominant wins, won’t get me wrong, but we gotta see this team steal some. The great teams do. Nobody in the NFL can just hit on all cylinders week in and week out, I think you gotta tread water and find a way when it just isn’t your week.

I’m pulling for him though. He has a great offensive mind , nobody can argue that.

But I seriously hope in the background, behind closed doors they are putting together a plan for if he doesn’t work out, and I hope it’s not some puppet. Can’t win like that.