Go for it and keep the stupid arguments out of good threads.

But he's not on this team...He's gone..why do you want to keep bringing this up ?

What we have built could not have been done without Sashi Brown’s contributions. We are indebted to him forever.

I will now never enter this thread again.

Why?

Sashi didn't do it alone. We can't forget the suckitude of one Hugh Jackson and it's major contribution to the situation in which we now find ourselves.

Great thread.....LOL

He did his job. He's an excellent F'up.
That's not a insult either. I believe he got paid well and did a good job to take this club to the brink...of ruin.

A truly thankless job...until now.

Man, you went there?

Lol!

It was a perfect storm of many things combining followed by one of the greatest football minds the world has ever known,...joining our team.

Even today, people still doubt us.
"They look good on paper, but winning is a different story"

This fall we will erase all doubt.

And we will be the most fun team to watch EVER.

I like the idea behind this thread. But I doubt it will work.
If we can keep ALL the Sashi talk her this will be a great thread. Unfortunately, I don't believe that posters can control themselves and not talk about Sashi in the other threads.

We weren't privy to all that went on inside the HQ in Berea and we don't know how collaborative the decisions were.

Obviously Sashi wasn't a football guy. He went full-blown, all-out rebuild.

I don't think he believed the Browns would lose so tremendously, as in 1-31.

I think someone effed up the Schwartz situation, I believe the Kizer/Kessler/Hogan experiment was a disaster waiting to happen.

I don't care now, though. He's gone, Dorsey is here and he's kicking ass.

And that's where the arguments start Lamp...Some say because Sashi set it up to make it happen that way..

Even Sports announcers discuss and have different opinions on this... I don't understand why some people take offense to discussing what happens from individuals to led up to someone else having success.

Who cares if the team is winning and having success..shouldn't that be the only thing that matters ?

+1

Well I guess if it wasn't for Sashi drafting Peppers then we couldn't trade for OBJ! Although I still wanted Hooker. No talent eyed POS

I doubt us... it's battered Browns syndrom... even last year I expected us to lose every game.....I'm ready for us to become a winning franchise...

You do realize if no Peppers, no Ward either, right?

It's hard to evaluate what Sashi put together because he was saddled with the worst coach of all time. You could have one of the best personnel guys and his players aren't going to look very good with Clueless Hue running the show. That actually happened btw.

Dorsey figured this out after 8 games.. heck, he probably figured it out after about 8 hours, but it took 8 games for a proper opportunity to arise. Then two weeks later, it's like we had a brand new team. Night and day difference.

About Sashi, he wasn't really qualified for his job, but that was more on Haslam than Sashi. That said, he did understand a lot of things, various inefficiencies in the league like how much future picks are discounted (a second in this draft is worth a first in the next one.. ). Remember that Denzel Ward and Nick Chubb were once future picks, acquired by Sashi.

I like how he flubbed the McCarron deal.. probably would have cost us Chubb (from the pick) and perhaps Mayfield too. He saw that short-sighted, panicked disaster of a trade for what it was and got the Browns train back on track. Thank you Sashi.

It wasn't all good. The team often lacked toughness and grit, and it wasn't the most talented bunch. There was a lot of uninspired football.. how much you want to put that on player acquisition and how much is on the coaching is up for debate, like a lot of this stuff.

He blowed it up! He blowed it up good!

Sashi'd probably make a better owner than GM. It's kind of what he was, without actually having the power. I really wonder how it worked. Who was our actual talent evaluator? Even if you look at Berry in that "GM" role, we still had the least experienced guy in the league. So, we had the least experienced GM (cap-focus) taking reports from the least experienced "head scout" and we're talking about the Super Bowl a couple short years later. It's kind of crazy.

I think Sashi gets undue flack. He can also get undue praise. I tend to have more sympathy for the latter due to the situation Sashi was in.

I feel like he helped to improve our systems and structure. Yes, his picks were often terrible, but what do you expect from him? He'd never been a scout. He was working off reports from people who were supposedly good at doing that scouting. Most are gone now. Hue didn't seem to really know what he wanted, or at least how to attach what he wanted to reality and what was possible. The players that ended up being picked didn't work, but from a cap perspective (which he was actually trained in) the moves made sense and left us the future flexibility to be in the position we are now.

People keep judging Sashi as a GM. I've said it before, he wasn't the GM. The GM position was vacant while he was the VP of Football Operations. He did the tasks normally handled by a GM. He understood that no worthwhile GM candidate would want the cluster&^*k that was the Browns GM position in 2016. His goal was to make the position desirable by building up the draft and salary cap capital. Part of that was letting popular players leave for the the comp picks. As for managing personnel, he did the best he could, which wasn't very good at all. He added some good pieces, but mostly he missed. But again, performing the tasks of the GM while there wasn't one was secondary to building up the position to attract someone like Dorsey.

So he was the man in charge of a rudderless ship that had no captain. Mmmmm, hmmmmm....

Rudderless while he installed a new rudder, yes.

He may have uninstalled the rudder that was here when he got here. That's how you create a rudderless ship. But he didn't "install" anything. So far the vast majority of everything he installed is already gone.

There, by correcting me you have illustrated my point. He took the least attractive GM job in the NFL and turned it into the most attractive in 2 years, a blank canvas with all the tools needed to rebuild. Do you think that was an accidental consequence of his ineptitude? or is there a possibility it was his objective all along.

I didn't really know cutting players and trading down in drafts was a huge skill set. But to hear it told, I guess it is. Kind of like drafting Kizer huh?

Again, you are focusing on Sashi as GM. I freely admit he did a terrible job at acquiring talent. But I don't believe that was his main goal. His goal, in my opinion, was to attract the kind of GM that could do the job right, and that is exactly what happened. And again, there is no way in heck that Dorsey (had he been available) would have taken the job in 2016.

In this hypothetical, Sashi took the rudder off that had been repaired 25 times and needed replaced for years. He finally pulled it out of service to be fully replaced.

Demolition takes far less skill than construction.

Except all the picks we have been using last year and to be used this year, but you and a few others can't see to see that.

Not my fault.

Carry on, I am out.

You do realize that when you lose all the time and trade down all the time that will happen, right? That when you keep punting the responsibility down the road, drafting a QB like Kizer and generally mucking things up, it's addition by subtraction more than rocket science.

Not only has Dorsey had to do well in the draft, he's honing in on replacing 40 players that were on the 53 man roster when he took over a short time ago. Do you even understand how hard you have to work at being that bad?

Agreed. I'm giving the credit of construction to Dorsey, 100%. But I'm giving credit to Sashi for demolishing in a way that made Dorsey say, "That's the job I want."

How many times in the last 20 years have the Browns done a half-bassed job of rebuilding, trying to piece together mis-matched parts? What Sashi did was complete the unskilled portion of the tear down so the Dorsey could do the skilled portion of the rebuild. He provided Dorsey with a blank canvas and all the tools he needed to build his masterpiece. Dorsey gets the credit for the masterpiece.

You de realize that by shipping your better players down the road you gain cap space, right?

And that by trading down in the draft you acquire picks, right?

And that by drafting a QB like Kizer you're going to lose even more games and have more high draft picks, right? And when RG3 and Cody Kessler is your QB room you basically pooped the bed, right?

I mean surely people can't see all of that as some grand master plan can they?

I know you're saying all that cynically, but that's absolutely right. Oh, and shipping the better players down the road also netted compensatory picks.

They didn't set out to draft Kizer. But in the middle of the 2nd round, he was still there, so they took a shot. I'm not convinced doing so was wrong. Throwing him into the fire without letting him learn and grow first was absolutely wrong.

Well he's been doing so well since.

It all comes down to 1 thing; the job of GM of the Cleveland Browns went from the least attractive in the NFL in 2016, to the most attractive in 2018. That's no simple thing. Did that happen by accident? or by design?

Yeah, Sashi was setting the ground work for his firing.

You're right, that wasn't part of the plan. But that was likely Haslam's impatience. They were already searching for a GM at that time.

So who do you think was here that had the ability to build the Browns? You see impatience and I see need. NOBODY that was hre had the ability to build an NFL team. Dorsey had already proven he knew how in Kansas City.

Haslam could see the dysfunction those at the top had trying to build an actual NFL roster. Dorsey saw it too and stated as much when he got here.

This is arguably the most entertaining argument I've ever seen...

On one side we have... Sashi was trying to be good but was so bad at it that he caused us to fall so far that the person who took over after him was actually in a good position..

On the other side we have... Sashi was trying to be bad and was so good at it that... [the rest is the same]

I'd argue that if the whole trade debacle with McCarron never happened, then Sashi might just still be employed here. He was never meant to be the guy to build the Browns up. As people have endlessly pointed out to you, he was here to scrap the roster down, and essentially set the team up to tank for several seasons to amass draft capital and cap space for years down the road. You might think that's "easy", but it's a path that few GMs are willing to take. When we had reached rock bottom, the McCarron thing happened, Hue got into Haslam's ear about it, and Haslam got impatient and fired Sashi. Dorsey was in the wings anyway, as we basically hired him the same day. But the main reason that Dorsey took the job was because the cap room and draft picks were already there to make it work. No way does Dorsey take this job in 2016.

And in no way is that a slight to Dorsey. What he's done since has been amazing.

So Sashi was fired because a crappy coach conned a naive owner into firing a guy doing a good job?

Sometimes I don't think you guys even hear yourselves.

Which is the much more believable option. All his moves, like not signing older vets to long term deals and punting draft picks down the road to amass more future draft picks were meant to open up options in the future.

Which part of that doesn't sound believable? We've already established the crappy coach and naive owner parts.

How many teams sign older veterans to long term deals? Usually they cap those kind of signings to around 28 years old.

Which older vets did we sign where we were locked into huge amounts of cap space that we couldn't get out from under? Most of the contracts were structured in a way that we could release a guy and not have a ton of dead-money against our cap. That's why Dorsey has the kind of cap room he does today, and doesn't have to worry about any bloated albatross contracts taking up space on the roster.

That was my point. NFL teams don't do that. They don't sign older vets to long term, guaranteed contracts. That's not some great plan. That's common business practice in the NFL.

...he may have been a crappy coach, but he was a good con.

We didn't need to tear down any more. Time to use the draft capital that had been amassed. Clearly not Sashi's strong point.

What are you talking about? NFL teams get into bad contracts all the time: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2804231-the-worst-contract-on-every-nfl-roster

Heck, we got a free 2nd round pick by basically absorbing a Texans bad contract into our cap space..

Shut some critics up. Sashi helped.

Dorsey.

What Sashi did is the very definition of 'outside the box.' He did the things that a real GM would never do, because it's contrary to team building and would be professional suicide. But building isn't what Sashi was doing. He was dismantling a bad team and preparing it to be rebuilt. I could list the ways he did that, but you already have. My point remains that, while you see those moves as the hubris of a Harvard know-it-all who thought he could do better than a real football guy, I see it as him doing the nasty work himself, clearing the path for a real GM to do the rebuilding. My evidence is the 2 year conversion from worst GM job to best.

You have mentioned the bad QBs. Sashi passed several opportunities to draft a 'franchise QB.' That allowed Dorsey to come in and draft his QB, and now he's building a team around him with pieces of his choice, not left overs from a previous GM's build.

And it turned in to Nick Chubb. Worked out well for us.

NO. How so? Help me understand?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26266177/giants-add-wr-tate-4-year-375m-deal

Again, you and a few others don't get it.


As I have said before, I am glad Dorsey is here for the rebuild.

I am glad we went through the tear down. Depo even said many can't stomach that.

My only beef is you and a few others act like Depo is some sort of simpleton who doesn't have a view of value.


I don't give a damn about Sashi. I hardly talk about the guy.

The trade down with Houston netted us their 1st round pick last year, the 4th overall, which we took Ward with. If we take Hooker at 12, we don't get that pick. Instead, we got Peppers and Ward. It doesn't always work out that way, but that trade was worth it.

I'll bet that nobody expected this thread to go a full page, much less more than one...

Way too funny...

https://youtu.be/n3mZqUfPsoQ

Who?

Sashi had one job.. Find a QB. He failed.

Here's what I say to Hue, Sashi, and ultimately Jimmy.

Are you sure that was his job? According to some he was supposed to screw it up on purpose! I mean if we didn't lose all the time we wouldn't have been able to dump players and draft like crap. And I mean if you actually draft good players you don't lose all the time, right?

Or was it Depo that drafted like crap?

I'm not sure they can make up their minds.

I've presented my case. I'm not going to continue going over the same things trying to convince you. As long as you continue to view Sashi as a GM, and to refuse to think 'outside the box' of conventional FB wisdom, you will never see that Sashi wasn't a screw up, he succeeded in what he was trying to do, attract the best available GM candidate.

Yeah, that was his job......

His job was to tear down a team that had a lot of high priced talent that wasn't producing anything in the win column.

That's one thing I've totally agreed with all along. He certainly knew how to tear down a team.

I don't know if anyone listens to the Thomahawk Show with Andrew Hawkins and Joe Thomas but they did a show last Friday after the free agency and trades. At one point they got to talking about Sashi Brown. Both agreed that his strategy was the best strategy for the team and their future but that it was also extremely hard for anybody on the team to go through. Joe commented that he had been through the other rebuilds but that he thought Brown's strategy was best, but especially hard on the veterans. So it was hard for players, but in the best interest of the team in the long run.

Sashi was always going to be the sacrificial lamb for a designed and executed TANK job. The reason we traded out of high picks was because they weren’t high enough. We needed superstars and we were tanking until we got them. Drafting guys like Corey Coleman and Jabrill Pepper only proved this point further…..mid round picks have a high bust rate.

I genuinely believe that Hue was IN on the tank all along but when he couldn’t control his own coaching staff they knew he was out.

Sashi didn’t “do” much other than let the analytics guys tank and take the blame for it. I’m sure he was well compensated and will go back to being a lawyer with some diversity on his resume. This was a purposeful tank and it worked perfectly.

Love Sashi. They should bring him back.

Will never say anything bad about Sashi, he set us up to be the best team in the NFL for at least the next 10 years

Rocket science at its finest.

And this is where (IMO) Sashi excelled - getting us in the direction for long term success. Unfortunately, team ownership couldn't withstand the stress until Sashi's plan began to bear fruit...

They basically said the same thing I've been saying, they even used the same 'blank canvas' metaphor. Thanks cle23.

Yeah, thank God Haslam knew going into this process that Dorsey would be sitting there unemployed two years later. He must have consulted a psychic.

I mean we all know that's the easy part. That's why everyone who has been here has blown top draft picks and we didn't have a QB for almost 20 years.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. And Dorsey being available at just the right time was luck. Not a part of some grand plan.

Of course Haslam couldn't know who was going to be available 2 years in, but what was obvious was that nobody with any reputation for ability was going to take the job. We were going to get 1) a failed GM looking for another chance, or 2) someone untested and unproven who wasn't hired by better club. There was no way in H E double hockey sticks that someone with the abilities or credentials of Dorsey would ever consider the job. But 2 years later the job sold itself, because Sashi made the job attractive. Dorsey just happened to be available, and yes Haslam and the Browns were lucky that he was.

I just wonder if you can name three GM's in all of football who could rebuild this team in less than two years the way Dorsey has? Even with the assets at hand.

Sure there's 32 GM's in the NFL and some of them are decent. But how many have actually taken a team from rags to riches in less than two years? I certainly can't think of any.

Timing is everything and the timing had more to do with our turnaround than any plan.

I completely agree with most everything you just said. My point remains that Dorsey would never have considered the job had Sashi not turned the job from the least attractive GM job in the NFL to the most attractive job. And that it was not accidental, it was what Sashi was trying to do.

And I'll remain with my point that it was 100% luck that Dorsey just so happened to be available at the perfect time. And that there isn't a chance in hell any other GM in the NFL could have pulled off what Dorsey has.

I would also like to point out something else. People said that Hue should have won some games in 2017. Many said at least a hand full of games. That would have put the Giants and Colts ahead of us in the 2018 draft. We both know the Colts would not have drafted a QB. But would the Giants have drafted Mayfield instead of Barkley if he was still on the board?

Should we be thanking Hue for Mayfield because Hue sucked so bad? I mean if we're going to hand out a participation trophy to Sashi for sucking so bad and reaching for reasons to reward his sucktitude, shouldn't we do the same for Hue?



Food for thought.

We are in complete agreement on this, and have been all along.

Where we disagree, and apparently will never agree, is in what Sashi was trying to do.

I believe he was trying to build the GM job. He did that by accumulating picks and salary cap space, by clearing the roster of burdensome contracts, and by avoiding drafting centerpiece players who might not fit with a new GM's plan. Most of these moves were counter to what a GM would have done. He turned the Browns GM job into a blank canvas with all the tools necessary for a GM to build his team. I don't believe he could have accomplished this by accident, he had to actively try.

That the team played so badly as to get the #1 pick was in part luck (bad or good depending on your point of view), but also could be because Hue would have had to be at least aware of the plan, if not actively participating by trying to lose games, without being obvious or losing the team. That could be why he started last season as HC in spite of all the losing.

Everything worked out perfectly; the GM job was the best available when the best possible candidate came along. Part luck, but there is an old saying, luck favors the prepared.

So no credit for Hue sucking so bad we were able to draft Mayfield at #1?

Sorry, but...

I've stayed out of this thread and limited my discussion on Sashi here for obvious reasons. And I guarantee that instead of having a meaningful conversation, one of the Anti-Sashi-ites will make some derogatory remark about this post...

Reading through this thread again it's astonishing to me that some don't see or appreciate the good Sashi has done. I'm not going to succumb to their agenda... but it seems this turned into a Sashi v Hue war... and I don't know how anyone could be more comfortable with Hue over Sashi. I don't necessarily think Sashi would have us where we are right now talent-wise, but I don't think we'd still be talentless as many seem to presume.

The facts as we know them... We are in year 4 of the rebuild and we are approximately where we said we'd be 4 years ago. Hue knew of the rebuild but he backtracked and lied and pounded his chest saying he needed to be more involved in player acquisition. Hue's only say came when we dealt with quarterbacks. If Hue had won more than 3 games in 2.5 seasons he still might be here. Hue doesn't have an NFL job today. Sashi wasn't the talent-evaluator. And we wouldn't have Jarvis Landry or OBJ without assets acquired when Sashi was here.

I also believe Dorsey wouldn't be here without Sashi's plan. That might also be a fact... however, Dorsey still maybe might have come here as GM, but he wouldn't have had the assets Sashi's team provided him...

We are completely, 100% still within the plan that Sashi set forth when he "took over."


If you want to keep reading, feel free...

The plan was never "to lose." It was a by-product of the plan. They never expected Hue to be that bad... And Haslam foiled the plan in my mind by going with his choice of HC and not the choice of the front office.

I know someone is going to say well Sashi isn't in the NFL either, and this being said without knowing whether he even wants an NFL position. He was burnt here. He was promised to get the length of "the plan," but he was fired halfway through. He didn't complain, or take to twitter, he thanked Cleveland for his time here. I think he is smiling ear to ear knowing we are about to accomplish something spectacular and he had a hand in it. I think he's an incredibly humble human being and we were fortunate to have had him.

I think a gigantic reason we are here today is a lot of good fortune. A lot! The QB situation is a little murkey, but we could have easily had Wentz, or possibly Trubisky. Other than possibly Mahomes, who might have suffered in our organizational structure at the time, we were far fortunate to land Mayfield. People want to thank Hue for his losses, that's fine... He actually could have won 2 games in 2017 and we still would have gotten him. We might have gotten him with 3 wins, the Giants seemed intent on drafting Barkley... and I'd assume with the assets we could have possibly traded up if we necessary.

All these little things added together put us where we are right now... Not only did we have a good plan, but we were very fortunate throughout the process.

I mean we are able to spend well over the salary cap this season. We need to be all-in on THIS season to win it all. 1 or 2 more signings and we'll be fine. I'm worried about the future, but I hope that will sort itself out. I'm hopeful we'll be ok, all the while spending what we can for this season to win NOW. That's exciting to me.


This ended up longer than I intended, but I'll end with this... I was reading online recently and it was said would you rather be a fan of the Bengals and stay with Marvin Lewis and be average for 15 years, or would you rather have an owner who will keep firing people until he gets it right? I've always been hard on Jimmy, but I know that despite what people think or say, he was trying to get it right and win. He didn't want to be average, he wanted to win... If he got this right, he deserves a lot of credit.

Nice post with very good perspective.

It might be a bit optimistic on Jimmy at the end-- those first 6-7 years were tough-- but if this Browns team goes where most of us think it can go, I can definitely see where you're coming from.

Two years of tear down and two years of rebuild. At least this time Haslam was smart enough to know that one man couldn't do both jobs. Sashi tore it down well. Dorsey is buiding it very well.

It takes a lot more talent to build a team than it does to tear one down.

We've always had a ton of cap space and high draft picks. Sashi did manage to keep it that way. But it wasn't something new here.

I have no problem with this being your opinion. I simply don't agree.

I can't tell you if Sashi is good at building a team. He was never given the opportunity. I doubt it would look the same as the one we have now, but I couldn't tell you if the results would have been different or not. On that note i'm very happy where we are right now.

I also think it's just as hard to "properly tear down" a team as it is to build one.

It's interesting the amount of people who said they want to see Hue be given a chance to coach a more talented team, meanwhile some of those same people didn't want to give Sashi a chance to build a team.

And honestly I have no issue with this, except I don't know how anyone can say Sashi couldn't build a team when they haven't even seen him attempt to do so.

As much as the Hue-ians wanted to see Hue coach with a more talented team, I wanted to see Sashi build a team.

With the current state of affairs I don't think anyone should complain how we got here.

Hue did get more talent and was given that chance..... after Dorsey arrived. Hue failed terribly even when given that talent. See, that's the difference here. Those that wanted to see Hue given that talent saw it and admit he failed. They're happy we moved on from him.

Yet on the other hand, the NFL has talent evaluators who have been in the league for years that have trouble building a winning team and drafting great players. But for some reason they seem hell bent on trying to make the argument that someone who had zero experience at doing this had some shot at accomplishing this. Throwing common sense to the curb.

One side let go. The other side just can't help but cling to the most unlikely of fanciful dreams.

I agree that some can't let it go. But it's not the ones who you think it is...

A couple other thoughts.

Sashi wasn't a talent evaluator.

I agree Hue had more talent and failed.

Sashi also never got the chance to build a team, which you admitted. Also, the hit rate on draft picks while he was here was pretty darn good.

I don't care that Sashi isn't here. I'm happy with what we have here today. I just don't agree when people assume he couldn't build a team because we have no idea. Hue was given a chance, Sashi was not. That's the bottom line.

Im not trying to prolong this argument, but the big difference is the effects of Sashi are still here, while the effects from Hue are long gone.

The side that let it go still gets their panties in a bunch every time Hue's name is mentioned. Hue and Sashi both sucked at their jobs, and in the long run the team is much better off because of it. If either of them were a little better at their job duties, we wouldn't have the talent that we do now.

I'm just glad we now have Dorsey and Baker.

Okay. Sure. Let's pretend that's true. I mean you did read the post Device made, right?

He's still hanging on to a guy that had no clue how to build a team, with zero experience building a team.... should have been given a chance to build a team. Why? Because after two years there's still a hand full of players left on the roster from his time here.

But hey, we can still go with your pretend narrative.

What's pretend about it? Everytime Hue's name is mentioned, you folks that "let it go" come unglued.

Sashi and Hue oversaw the worst record in NFL history. They deserve to be bashed and discussed. They also deserve a little praise, because without their suckitude we wouldn't be in the shape we're in now.

Yeah, you refuse to even see the above posts where a Sashi supporter still thinks he should have been given a chance to build the team. But keep going.....

Allahue Akbar!

I didn't refuse to see anything. I've repeatedly said they both sucked.



Keep going? That's what you're doing, even though you're the one that claimed to "let it go". But I'll keep going for the reasons I gave earlier...they earned it.

You must really be conflicted, with your incessant desire to get the last word in and a claim that you "let it go".

Come on dude. Where did I say this? This is where you guys get yourselves into trouble, making stuff up like this.





Apparently you didn't read what I wrote.

Mmmmmm hmmmmm.

And when you can point to the post where I said he should have been given the chance you can get back to me.

Your agenda is out of control.

Can't we all just agree that, no matter how we got here, the team finally appears to be on the right path?

That was a great episode.
I also came away with an even deeper level of respect for Joe, in that he never stopped playing at his highest level.

It was a real eye-opener to hear a retired pro speak so candidly, and without animus or rancor. Joe simply told us how it was... and how hard it was personally to keep taking the field with all that was happening.

I love the ThomaHawk Show.

____________

Sashi: I could see the steps being takes as they unfolded. I understood what the goal was. I hated that it looked/felt/tasted/smelled so frikkin' ugly.

I was sickened by the thought of (yet) another teardown/rebuild. "We never stick with anything. EVER! Aaaaarrrgh!!!"

But I saw the picks stockpiling. I saw the rationale behind the tactics, but I couldn't see a satisfactory outcome- until John Dorsey was hired, and started to do the GM thing.

It was at that point that I allowed myself to appreciate the position we were in. A position that was part of Shasiball's plan all along.

In fact, Joe and Andrew even talked about Sashi's role in somewhat positive terms, which further impressed me.

I hope all Dawgs are tuning in to that Podcast. These Dawgs are smart, experienced, smart, funny, naturals on the mic... and speak from a POV that only Insiders can provide. It should be on every 'ultimate fan's' go-to list.


Good call, cle23

"Sashi Brown died, so that we may live."

That was the best thread title I've seen on this forum in ages.

I want it as a tshirt. And I will only wear it when I'm in CLE.

Some years ago I recall reading a bit where Depo warned Jimmy, when the idea was being pitched, that it would get pretty ugly...and it did...lol

It became uglier once it was found out the coach was incompetent in the head coaching role. They weren't expecting 1 win in two seasons.

I am not going to say I would have liked to have seen Sashi building the team because I am pretty darn happy with what is going on in Berea these days.

Yes.

And I think we could look drastically different today under another rule.

I'm happy with where we are. Wouldn't change it for anything.

That's a bit dramatic.

How about, Sashi Brown failed so that we may succeed?

I don't believe that is accurate. He did not fail. This is a false narrative. This is the whole point of my argument.

He sure wasn't a success.

The current roster pretty much says otherwise.

I would say he was successful.


edit: I should add that he was successful with his plan... the plan is in year 4 and a lot of us here are talking about playoffs and a possible deep run into the playoffs... when was the last time we had done that?

He's not here... but some of things he did are reflected on the roster. So I don't necessarily agree.

Some can't swallow the fact that the plan Sashi and Depo had is the reason John was in a great position as the new GM.

That said, it would be a stretch to think that Sashi and the people he had in the FO would have done as good a job as John in picking players. I suppose it possible, but as I said, it's a stretch to think that.

Well we did have to suck bad enough to get the #1 draft pick so Dorsey could draft Baker.

This pretty much sums it up.

A year and a half after Sashi was canned, we have 5 players drafted by Sashi left, or signed as UDFA ...... 2 players he traded for .... and 2 he retained from prior administrations.

That's pretty dismal.

And the players we acquired with his trade downs and saved cap space?

Yeah, but you're using math. I mean, come on.

Yes, we traded Zeitler , who made the Pro Bowl because he was dismal.

We traded Peppers away because he was dismal.

We let McCourty go because he was dismal.

Nassib was dismal last year.

Punting draft picks to accumulate more, earlier ones was dismal.

jesus christ....this board sometimes.

Punting draft picks is what people who don't know how to use them do.

Sashi was well compensated to tank.
just look at the QB room a few years back.
Im sure Sashi was told to tear it all down
yet still make it look it we are trying to win.
whats funny is Haslam waa still charging fuĺl price for tickets
for single game and season ticket holders.
Sashi was the GM.
his draft failures are evident without argument
having Sashi as GM was like having a Grubhub driver run a 5 star eatery.
the Browns lucked out getting Dorsey.
Sashi did the easy work.
Dorsey has the hardwork to.do

Like the Seahawks and Patriots do?

Trading draft picks is what a team does when they know they are going to fail 60% of the time when drafting players (like everyone in the league does). More picks, more chances of getting a good player.

Yeah, we were Super Bowl contenders like the Pats and Seahawks. You know, full of talent and drafting at the bottom of the round. Apples and oranges.

The process is the same. Trade down to get more picks because the draft is a crapshoot. Process is the important thing.

Sure it is. When you have talent and don't need talent at every position, the process is not the same. The higher your picks, the better odds of success. When you draft near the end of the round the probability of success decreases.

So your supposition is instead of trying to draft help you desperately need, you punt. Mmmmm hmmmm.

So when you have more needs you want less picks?



Punt was not my word and not the word I would use. Punt implies that you are getting nothing which was not the case. We were getting future picks which are very valuable.

I'm seriously not trying to be mean because that's not me, but your ignorance on the topic is mindboggling.

If people knew how to use draft picks, every player in the NFL would be an all pro.

anybody remember when Sashi got canned sone acted like losing Sashi was the end of the world as far as the Browns fortunes go?
they acted like Sashi was the best GM the Browns ever had.

If only there were a way to look this up. . .

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1367178/sashi-brown-fired#Post1367178

Here we go again. Sashi Brown was not the GM. He was the Executive VP of Player Operations. The GM position was vacant for 2 years.

In 2016, when the Browns fired Pettine and Farmer, Sashi understood that no GM worth his salt would want the job. The team had been through 4 regime changes in 5 years, with an impatient owner with a hair trigger finger, and a roster with very little talent. Any GM candidate who had another option, would take the other option, leaving the Browns with no chance of attracting a top GM candidate.

So instead of hiring a GM, Sashi took on the role of making the position of GM attractive. He made the roster decisions, but not with team building in mind. His first move was to let 4 good players leave in FA. None of us understood what he was doing at the time, and we all hated it. But looking back, after the whole scenario has played out, I can see that what he was doing was avoiding locking the team into potentially burdensome contracts with players best described as good but not great. He got comp picks in return.

Next he made a series of draft trade downs, accumulating future draft picks. By pushing the value into the future, he allowed for high value draft decisions to be made by the GM they would eventually hire. (Because hiring a good GM was the point.)

While he was pushing high value into the future, he had to still field a team, so he did the best he could using mostly later picks. What players he added, through the draft and FA, he concentrated on talent in the trenches.

By 2018, the GM position of the Cleveland Browns had transformed from the least attractive in the NFL, to arguably the most attractive in the NFL. An incoming GM would have 5 picks before the middle of the 3rd round, 2 firsts, 2 seconds, and a high 3rd. That the Browns had the worst record in the league giving them the first pick in every round, and the Texans (we owned both their 1st and 2nd round picks) did way worse then anyone expected, just made it even more attractive with 5 picks in the top 65, 4 in the top 35. In addition the incoming GM would have the most cap space in the league, and a roster with virtually no contract concerns. Essentially, a blank canvas and all the assets needed for an incoming GM to build HIS team.

That John Dorsey was available was sheer luck. Had he been available in 2016, he would not have taken the job. Had the Browns hired a lesser GM in 2016 and had botched yet another rebuild, Dorsey would not have taken the job in 2018. But the 2018 position was like a GM's dream. He took the job and has been exactly what this franchise has needed, a top shelf GM with insight and talent.

And we wouldn't have him without the job Sashi did in making the GM job attractive. I have lived 63 years, and I have learned that nothing becomes the best by accident. Turning the job of GM from worst to best in 2 years was no accident. It happened because Sashi had, and executed, a good plan.

I am NOT arguing that Sashi should have stayed in charge of the roster. It is my belief that was never his intention. I am not arguing that Sashi was good at drafting players. He had some hits, but over all not a good drafting record. But again, he was not a GM and he was not trying to build the team. He built the GM position to attract the best available candidate, and that, I believe, was his goal all along.

I spoke my piece about Sashi. I caught a lot of hell for telling the truth about what was going on. I got called a liar, an idiot, and other things. That convinced me that I should just keep my mouth shut on these boards.

It is naive to think Sashi Brown was not the GM. He was the GM in everything except title.

What you call naive, I call thinking outside the box.

Jimmy Haslam was/is in charge of the team.

Ageed. And Jimmy has often sought advice from others on how to improve his team. I suggest the plan was Sashi's and he sold Jimmy on the plan in the month(s) leading up to the firing of Pettine and Farmer.

It seems like this would have been reported at some point (especially in the Seth Wickersham article). Occam's Razor says that Sashi Brown was in charge.

I'm sure there is a lot that goes on behind closed doors and is unreported.

Not something like, "The person that was in charge wasn't actually in charge, he was just setting the table for the next person that was going to be in charge." That is a pretty big deal.

Hmm ... evidently I thought more highly of what Sashi had done at the moment of his firing than I do now. I think I try to look at the good people may have done, but in bigger picture mode, with a little distance and perspective, it is obvious that Sashi failed.

j/c

I'd contend the following are facts or derived from facts...

When Sashi was hired the intent was to hire a GM.

Sashi didn't take the job to be fired after a year and a half.

A GM wasn't hired while Sashi was here, so I'd say yes, he was the defacto GM.

Sashi wasn't hired to lose but losing was the expected outcome of "the plan."

Hue knew the plan going in.

Haslam talks to many people and more or less listens to the most recent person he's talked to... or the person he trusts most.

Sashi failed in respect to the fact that he was fired. But Sashi's plan was/is a success.

Despite Sashi being fired, the plan was retained.


If any of the above is disputed or felt to be incorrect I'd love to read the article or see whatever it is that you feel disputes what I consider to be the facts.... because I can pretty much point you in the direction of an article or something that would support the claims above.


Thus, I infer this....

Based on the things I've read, I'd guess Sashi had a plan and convinced Haslam to hire him. Sashi wanted to hire his own coach, but that's where Haslam drew the line. Every football person he talked to most likely told him what a great coach Hue is and how respected he is across the NFL. Haslam hired Hue. After a year and a half and one win, Haslam felt the pressure. The pressure to make a move. He talked to his inner circle people, football people and asked what he was doing wrong. They all praised Hue and said what's up with this Sashi guy, he's not a football guy. Despite his promises, Haslam fired Sashi.

With the assets obtained under Sashi, Dorsey was able to build the team we have today.


I love what Sashi provided and I love what Dorsey has done with it. I'm not disappointed Sashi isn't here, but I do think he got a "raw deal."

This is one of the more ridiculous, uninformed comments you've ever posted. And that is saying a lot.

You said it nicer than I did.

Sashi was hired in Jan. 2013 as lawyer for the Browns after working as a lawyer for the Jaguars from 2005 to 2012.

Sashi had no background in playing, coaching or managing a football team at any level before the Browns hired him.

It's always so funny going back and looking at some of those posts, especially those from the people who are the self-proclaimed arbiters on here regarding who knows and doesn't know football.

I read through quickly... mostly my posts but I read some others and some of the other posts were kinda funny...

I'd have to say for the most part, my stance is the same now as it was then. Sashi wasn't the problem, it was Hue. Sashi had us on the right path, and here we are... The owner still scares me, although I'm still trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

edit: And just to add, I believe my concern was that we were blowing things up again. We didn't blow things up, but stuck to the plan for once, and that's why we are in great shape today.





I did also come across this:




This was the quote of someone who claims I make stuff up and my reply was "this is false." SMH

I'm not an apologist like You and Memphis. I don't try to make things up. Sashi only managed to keep the status quo. Losing.

We had ample cap space and draft picks when he got here. All he managed to do was not screw that up. Dorsey explained they didn't know how to get any real talent when he first got here. I'll go with Dorsey instead of a couple of you guys on a message board. Sorry, but I have to take the word of someone who knows how to build a team in the NFL.

You guys have to make up some false narrative because you think analytics is everything while when Dorsey got here he brought in Elliot Wolf and Alonzo Highsmith to help him build a team. You know, an actual team that can win like we have now.

Sorry, your dreams of what you try to convince people happened is false and acting like you're right may land you a job in Hollywood, but not in reality.

You bring this up constantly and even still, to this day, have the quote in your forum signature:


First, I actually do think there is some truth to this. Sashi had some strong points, but he was not a great NFL talent evaluator.

I also wonder if there is a cryptic message in there, with "You've got to get a guy like that [Hue] players"

Well yeah, you've got to get a guy like that great players because he sure as hell can't win with mediocre ones, that much is obvious. Yeah, I know that 2017 team wasn't great, but I still think a good coach could have won 5 games. That was the Vegas over/under for the year.

Remember week 17 of that season?

The Steelers rested their starters for a 1pm Sunday game while a first-round bye was still on the table. Mike Tomlin thought his backups could beat Hue Jackson's 0-15 team and it turned out he was right.

How can you even judge Sashi's teams with a coach like that? Hue Jackson with Dorsey's team, 2-5-1. Same players, Freddie Kitchens, 5-3 while looking like a brand new team. This despite the 3 easiest opponents-- Jets, Raiders, Bucs-- all being in the Hue Jackson half of the season! (Some might say the Bengals, both of which were later in the season, but their implosion didn't start until Hue joined them, so...)

Sashi had his misses but he also brought in some talent that is still here, for example: Schobert, DeValve, Higgins, Garrett, Njoku, Ogunjobi, Tretter, and probably a few others that I'm forgetting.

Also, even if some players are not Browns anymore, does not mean they can't play. This is especially true when other GMs thought highly enough of Sashi's players that they themselves are willing to give up valuable players or picks in return.

Zeitler got us Vernon. Peppers and picks got us OBJ. Kizer got us Randall. Several others were traded for role players or late round picks.

(A side note: I know it's fashionable to rag on Dave Gettleman so some will brush off the Giants trade(s) as him not knowing what he is doing, but he was the pro personnel director for the two Giants Super Bowl wins over the Patriots, and the general manager for the NFC Champion Panthers, so I'm not convinced that all the talking heads are right about the guy. Time will tell.)

Sashi left us the #1 pick to draft Mayfield, whose QBASE score (an analytics formula invented by a Sashi Brown staffer) was the 4th best since 1997. Left us picks #4 and #35 from trades with the Texans, which Dorsey used to draft Ward and Chubb. He left tons of cap space, including some rolled over from previous years, that has let us be big players in trades (taking on big contracts) and to some extent, free agency.

It's not all bad with Sashi. There's some good and some bad. He did whiff on some early picks with Corey Coleman especially being a head-scratcher.

I think Dorsey had to back Hue when he got here because that was Jimmy's guy. It was a de facto requirement to get the job in the first place. However, once he was here and actually saw what was going on, he moved on from Hue after 8 games. It was going to be the "Greatest turnaround in sports history" according to Hue, too bad it couldn't start until after he was gone.

You can judge it by how many players Dorsey replaced. Hue sucked as a HC. That doesn't make the players better. Winning three or four games? All that would have done was insure we wouldn't have Mayfield. And even if we could have traded up for him, which nobody can say for sure if we could have, we would have paid an arm and a leg for him.

I mean if people said, "Well Sashi sucked but but at least we still had some draft picks and plenty of cap space when he left", that wouldn't be so bad.

But what they fail to tell you is we had a ton of cap space and draft picks when he got here. So it's not like he did anything really different. He just didn't screw it up worse.

Hue's job was to win games, not tank for Baker Mayfield or any other QB.

I'm glad the Browns didn't win five games in 2017, they are better off for winning less and getting their QB without giving up any other assets. However, Hue wasn't trying to lose. It was the inevitable result of his incompetence. Ever listen to one of his pressers? I swear, sometimes I had no idea what the guy was rambling on about. Imagine the frustration of actually being on the team.

By the way, the second worst team that year was the Giants at 3-13 and then no other team had less than 4 wins. So the Browns could have beaten the Steelers backups in week 17, avoided 0-16, and still gotten the #1 overall pick with a couple games to spare.

I'm not sure why you're upset. Are you mad we weren't lied to? I believe we were told this was a 4-5 year plan, we would lose and it could be difficult to endure. Or do you not remember this and just wish to continue your false narrative?

We had the same plan, if that's what you want to call it, since 2012.

When Sashi got here we had 10 draft picks and tons of cap space. When he left we had 11 draft picks and tone of cap space.

status quo.

It seems you're indicating that both Sashi and Hue sucked. If that's what you're saying, we agree.

ALL GM's miss on players. Dorsey is not excluded. Nor is Belichick. Corey Coleman was rated the #1 WR by several talent evaluators. I think with two drafts and hitting on at least 12 really good NFL players is definitely decent. Whether those players are still here or not is irrelevant because we hired a new GM. If you give Dorsey credit for drafting Baker, you have to give Sashi credit for drafting Garrett.

Yes. So many wish to ignore this....

And it's a GM's job to build a team. Both failed. The math here is pretty simple.

What rounds where the draft picks right when he arrived and what rounds where these draft picks when he left? Because to simply list the total number of draft picks in two draft years as if they are the same thing is an extremely weak & lazy argument. Plus it should be noted that three of those picks were compensatory (not that this is a bad thing), not through any trades to build additional draft capital. So, in 2016 before Sashi was hired, we had our normal one pick per round. Then comp picks were announced, then Sashi did his trades to accumulate more picks in earlier rounds.

And you know we accumulated a ton of cap space with the releases the new 2016 front office made, like cutting Kruger, Dansby, Whitner, etc. You understand this right?


https://www.nj.com/eagles/2016/02/nfl_free_agency_2016_ranking_all_32_teams_by_cap_s.html

And it was 9th in the league. Where was it the when he left?

More Info: Sashi cutting the three players noted above (Kruger, Whitner, Dansby) added $13M to the cap, roughly a third of the total number above.

We did not... If this is what you believe, no wonder you're all discombobulated.

One point in case... 2015 we had one of the oldest defenses in the league. Sashi came in 2016 and we swiftly became one of the youngest if not the youngest defense in the league.

Your buddy Dorsey also retracted the quote you share in your signature to something of the nature that we got too young too fast...

But don't let facts get in your way....

Sashi helped in that most of our core players were either over 30 (Dansby, Tramon Williams, Whitner, Barnidge, Greco, Mack, Randy Starks, Hartline) or being paid and not producing (Kruger, Desmond Bryant)

No, not really.

My opinion of Hue is that he was the worst head coach I have ever seen at any level, of any sport. I literally can't think of anybody else who was so clueless, so in over their head, so lacking in self-awareness while they go on their blame tours, jumping ship to a divisional rival while he tanks them too, and so on. The best things I can say about Hue are that he will go and get you the #1 overall pick and he is a never-ending source of entertainment.

My opinion of Sashi is much more nuanced. Read my earlier post. Device has made a few good ones here too. I understand the Hue Crew can't bring it upon themselves to defend Hue directly anymore so they have to chip away at Sashi (and posters like me who have ragged on Hue for ages now), but scroll through again-- there's some good info here.

Some more: Cutting Dwayne Bowe added $3.4 to the 2016 available cap...now we're at almost $17M of that $38M in cap space from Sashi's releases.

I can.

People who thought Hue was a "leader of men" and all the players loved him simply because they watched edited footage on a football reality TV show.

j/c

Neither Hue nor Sashi have a job in the NFL. Boy these NFL team must really be stupid to let all of that talent Sashi possesses be going to waste!

Of course a few posters on a message board know better.

Sashi kept passing the buck because he didn't know to to build anything and the entire NFL knows it. That's why he's out to pasture now. Doing "lawyer things". Something he may actually be good at.

I think this is a great point. I think all the names you listed with the exception of Mack either retired or played 1 or 2 seasons after they left Cleveland.

You either choose to ignore the point or it just goes right over your head, but in either case perhaps this topic ain't for you?

This is such a terrible take. I get you feel the need to throw one final grenade into the bunker but you could have made such a better final pitch.

I spit out my La Croix when I read this....

Hey, reality bites. Sashi sucked so he's gone. Just like Hue. I don't make the news. I just report it.

Whaddya mean? Players are giving back to Hue all the time!

And they both still suck.......

anybody could have came in and did what Sashi did.
Dorsey has the hard part to do.

As bad as Sashi apparently was a drafting, 20 out of 24 players he drafted are currently on an NFL roster. The ones that aren't are all 5th round or later, except for Howard Wilson, who was a 4th rounder but never healthy.

That's actually a pretty good percentage.

I was never a big Sashi fan, and I seem to remember ripping into him at some points along the way, probably after he got fired.

Since then, my opinion has shifted somewhat as I more deeply appreciate the importance of coaching, especially in a sport like football that has so many moving parts. We've also seen how Sashi did, in fact, find some real players, many of whom are still playing in this league. Some are on the Browns and some are on other teams.

Add in that we've been cashing in his cap space and draft picks to great effect and I now think I was too harsh on Sashi when he was fired. I still think his time was very much a mixed bag and I wouldn't want to re-hire him as GM, so make of that what you will.

That's a very good percentage. I was disappointed to see him go, but who knows where we would be at this point if he had stayed...

Had Hue pulled his weight, Sashi would probably still be with the team, but we would have hired a GM to overlook the rebuild.

Sashi was never the GM. He had to sit in the role because we knew we could never hire a quality guy while we tore it down.

Yikes. What an awful take.

My argument has been that Sashi wasn't the GM. And several people have responded with something akin to 'he was doing the job of the GM, therefor, no matter what you call him, he was the GM.'

Which begs the rather obvious question; why not just call him the GM? Why create a previously non-existent position of Executive VP of Football Operations?

I agree with you.

Haslam said when we hired Sashi that we would hire a GM. We never did. One of the next hires, however, was Andrew Berry. I would contend that the two of them most likely worked as a traditional GM.

Yes, we did, it just took almost 2 years to find the right guy. I can't find the quote, but I remember Sashi saying that he was part of the hiring process of John Dorsey. Or maybe it was Haslam saying Sashi was part of that process. Either way, Dorsey was hired within hours of Sashi being fired, which means the hire was in the works for some time. In my opinion, Sashi was fired over the McCarron fiasco. Had that not happened, Dorsey would have been hired any way.

Sashi was EVP/General Counsel from 1/13 to 1/16 when his title was changed to EVPofFO. This is purely speculation on my part, but I believe Sashi spent a fair amount of time in Haslam's office talking about whatever was on Jimmy's mind. He was General Counsel. I further imagine Jimmy sought his opinion on how to fix his team. IMO, it is in these conversations that the plan not hire a GM right away was born.

I'm with you 100% with this....

It's entirely plausible before Sashi was promoted there were talks about how to get the best coaches and best GM in the game. Speculating, yes, but I don't think Sashi sought the title GM. He wanted to help bring a winner to Cleveland and he thought he knew how to do it. I believe he succeeded in this regard. I also believe Haslam felt he had the right HC in Hue, but if Hue and Sashi were butting heads, one of them had to go. When Sashi was hired, he wasn't "supposed" to be fired midway through the second season of his tenure.

j/c

So let me get this straight. Sashi helped in the hiring process to replace himself?

If he wasn't the GM, why was he replaced with a GM?

Geesh....

You don't follow other people's comments well, do you?

Oh I follow...



That would indicate we were a rudderless ship for two years with no GM and Sashi helped in the hiring process to replace himself with someone who was a GM. So we didn't ADD a GM, we replaced Sashi with a GM.

Now whether he knew he was helping to find his replacement may be up to debate according to this post, but it says what it says.

Haslam looked at a thus far failed experiment and realized he needed a group of football people if he ever planned to succeed at the football business.

In came Dorsey, Wolf and Highsmith.

If not for the open conflict between Hue and Sashi, I don't think Sashi would have been fired. He probably would have moved back into his role as General Counsel. In that regard, I don't see the firing of Sashi and the hiring of Dorsey as directly related.

Part of Jimmy's logic in that decision may have been that, having finished the job of getting a top shelf GM, Sashi was more expendable than Hue. In that regard, the 2 events would be indirectly related. But I don't see it as the direct cause/effect that you see it.

So if there weren't a GM waiting in the wings, Haslam would have fired Sashi anyway? And if Dorsey didn't replace Sashi, who did?

In all of this, people continue to overlook Andrew Berry as the main talent evaluator and manager of scouts.

And who was his boss? Who had the final say?

Before I answer your question, why don't you answer mine...if Sashi was the GM, why create a whole new position instead of just calling him the GM?

Sashi.

Has anyone disputed he had the final say?

Edit: Final say except for when Jimmy trumped him. For example when Jimmy wanted Hue and EVERYONE ELSE wanted Sean McDermott.

So we were a team that had nobody in charge to perform the duties of an NFL GM for two years? Surely even you can't possibly believe that one.

Every GM has someone under them in charge of scouting and talent evaluation. I'm not even sure what point you were trying to make there.

Let's be a bit more clear about what I said regarding Berry:

I said "main talent evaluator and manager of scouts."

Yes, teams have people outside of the the GM role manage scouts. Let's look at that other component...."main talent evaluator".

Who is the main talent evaluator now?
Who was the main talent evaluator then?

That's my point regarding people overlooking Berry's role on this team pre-Dorsey.

So it's your assertion we had "co-GM's" but the acting GM, Sashi, had final say?

That is not what I have been saying at all. I have been saying that the GM job was vacant. Sashi's job was to turn the job into something that a top shelf GM would want so we don't have to hire a GM leftover. I the absence of a GM, his secondary job was to make the roster decisions normally handled by a GM. That may seem like semantics to you, but it changed the approach and intent of how he handled those tasks.

What is clear from your arguments is that you believe that 1) roster decisions are handled by the GM, 2) Sashi was handling the roster decisions, therefor 3) Sashi was the GM. I'm arguing that if Sashi was a GM, then he would have taken the title of GM. He isn't a team builder, but he could see what needed to be done to set up a team builder for success. So that is what he set out to do, set up a real team builder. Dorsey is the team builder that took the job.

Dorsey rightfully deserves all the credit for building the Browns. But without what Sashi did, Dorsey would not have taken the job.

So you're more caught up on the title of the job than the actual responsibilities of the job. Got it!

So he did the job of a GM but since he didn't have the title of a GM he wasn't a GM.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't see that as a logical conclusion.

No.

In fact, the title of GM or EVP argument that is going on today is completely irrelevant to me and could care less about titles...YOU simply need to do a better job and processing what people's opinions are on the matter, whether you agree with it or not. You're trying to twist people's posts and fabricate it into whatever you feel like. Even your "So it's your assertion of co-GMs" to me is ridiculously stupid and out of left field as I come nowherenear to that point-of-view. In the end, Haslem could call Dorsey's title "Director of Football Tape Watching", "Director of Trusting the Gut", "Director of the Anti-Nerd and Numbers Department", or Senior VP of "Final Decisions" and his role is no different than what he is doing now as General Manager. He is the lead talent evaluator and has final say.

"My assertion" is that Sashi oversaw two main components regarding football operations: traditional scouting and the new infusement of analytics into football decisions(the latter was essentially non-existent in Berea) and as an aside, the Analytics Dept. would influence all facets of the Browns organization from sales to training to nutrition, etc.

"My assertion" is that Sashi leaned on Berry to lead everything in the traditional scouting and talent department and Sashi leaned on DePodesta for everything analytics as it relates to the plan set forth. Sashi had to marry the two components based on the plan that was approved upon by Haslem, which has been explained several times here and by the Browns and it centered around asset accumulation in the way of increasing more early round picks, increasing/managing cap space, getting younger, and selecting talent where they were picking, if not trading. Managing all of that was Sashi's biggest job. There were wins and losses in everything (I submit FAR more wins than losses)--whether it came to picks, decisions to trade or not to trade, or whether to listen to a coach or scout about a player to draft. With all the information presented to him, and sticking to the heart of the plan, Sashi then had the final say.

That's "my assertion".

I know you are smart enough to get my point. So it becomes obvious that you are intentionally ignoring my point. Sashi wasn't trying to be a GM. So judging him as a GM is misjudging him. I judge him on how well he did in attracting the best available team builder to be the GM. In that, he succeeded.

It's called "Selective Reading Syndrome". Your mind wants to read only what it wants to.

Yeah, I'm done. If Pit wants the last word, he can have it.

So because I don't wish to give a lot of consideration to outrageous, far fetched, convoluted theories, that is somehow a problem?

He had the power and the authority of an acting NFL GM. All the rest is just spin and drivel.

This well said by Memphis...


And yes, I did say Sashi didn't have the opportunity to "build" a team, and when I say that, I mean as in his team. It also doesn't mean I wish he was still here or think that he should be here. I even commented in the link provided when Sashi was fired that I was ok with him being fired, but the retention of Hue was baffling.

Going back, Andrew Berry was a main cog in this operation. He is now just a step down in Philly from the role Howie Roseman plays for the Eagles.

I have no doubt in my mind that somewhere down the road Andrew Berry will be a GM for an NFL franchise. He was a great hire by us... And while I think it's entirely plausible that we could have hired a GM, I think it's entirely plausible that Berry could have assumed that role here. His knowledge and ability is probably why we held onto him for another year under Dorsey. I believe it's rare to see the head player personnel be retained by a new regime. It's happened, I'm sure, but I'm guessing not often. I would love to investigate this further... maybe I'll find out I'm wrong. Who knows.


Also, I would like to note that I believe I'm now the leader in the clubhouse with the most Sashi mentions in my posts. Wasn't fair to have an anti-Sashite with that title...

Ah, Andrew Berry was the GM and his boss Sashi was just the figure head. But then there's that "final say" sticking point. lol

Each of you has a different theory.

I guess one should ask what you believe to be the power and authority of an acting NFL GM is...?

Perhaps you're selling the title of GM short and you do not realize all the responsibilities that go along with being a GM... and I believe the responsibilities of being GM vary from team to team as I know some GM's do not have final say.

Yet one that does isn't the GM?

No. You just keep twisting what people say.

Some people just don't like when what they are saying obviously makes no sense. Let's take a look at the latest example.



Yet your assertion is the man that DID have the final say wasn't the GM. You really make this too easy.

Here is something to your credit that you posted earlier, I believe W8. It comes from an article when DePodest was hired, which was came after Sashi's promotion. Here is the quote from the article:


https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2016/01/cleveland_browns_hire_analytic.html

Here is another article referencing the same thing:

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2016/01/cleveland_browns_will_search_f.html

And in the end they hired Berry to do the say thing as the GM-- be the main talent evaluator. I submit it was because Brown had final roster say.

So the first article referenced analytics supporting personnel. And the second referenced getting a GM-type role where they ultimately settled on Berry as the main talent evaluator w/o the GM title.

Pit, you were right. How "outrageous, far fetched, and convoluted" is that?!

Yet Sashi had final say. But keep reaching.

Exactly. It even references it in the article:



Again, no one is disputing final say. You're arguing against the wind, or a wall, or yourself. Not sure which.

Haha. Seriously? You're the one lacking in the logical department. I have no idea why you think being GM and having final say is synonymous. It is not.

Lombardi was "GM" and didn't have final say.

Kokinos was "GM" and we know who ran that draft and had final say.

If memory serves, GM Heckert didn't have final say, Holmgren did.

I believe Gruden has final say in Oakland and I'm not sure about across the bay, who has the final say in San Francisco?

*Delete*

What took you so long?

How would that compare to the rest of the league, in the players they selected, in the same timeframe?

Ok here you go

Jimmy Haslam went and bought himself a "Fixer Upper" when he bought the team. He brought in Sashi (Chip Gaines) for the Demo. You know all the hard dirty work. He ripped everything down to the studs, and set John (Joanna Gaines)Dorsey up to set his re-design plans into action. It has been a team effort. It's now time to reveal our new house on National TV and to sit back and enjoys the views.

Here we go Brownies here we go WOOF WOOF

.... . Only you could find a way to get Fixer Upper into a Sashi thread.

That's only because we are done with Flip or Flop

I do kind of find humor in the fact some people think it takes as much talent to demo a home as it does to build a home. I see that a lot on here.

I don't think what Sashi did required talent so much as it did discipline and willingness to endure criticism.

Don't take those things for granted. I do think that Sashi was a little in over his head at identifying talent. The percentage of draft 'hits' (as in players still in the league) is high but there's not a whole lot of game-changing talent in there other than Garrett, who was a fairly obvious pick at #1 overall.

That said, not every GM leaves behind picks 1, 4, 33, 35, 67, 105, 150, 175, and 188 in the next draft, along with piles and piles of rolled over cap space. Some GMs actually trade away future picks in order to win now, while further sabotaging future years by signing overpriced/underperforming vets to big contracts. I'm glad Sashi didn't do that.

Sashi didn't leave us the #1 draft pick. Hue did.

I was actually thinking about this the other day. A QB-needy team could do a lot worse than hiring Hue Jackson as head coach in 2020, collecting their #1 overall pick, and then hiring a real head coach and drafting Trevor Lawrence.

I don't know that Trevor Lawrence will be some great QB, but, if your team already sucks, winning a few games doesn't really help you. Might as well hire Hue and lose them all so you get the #1 pick.

Gotta love the double standard in your argument. When it's convenient, you change your argument of whose suckitude gained what assets to fit your narrative. To me that's a sure sign that you're pimping an agenda.

We essentially had 6 first round picks in the last 3 years thanks to Sashi. We also acquired second round picks as well and they were used in various manners. I'm not going to go looking at all the trades and picks at the moment but feel free.

I'm not sure how this seems to go over your head. Actually, I know. However, if you want to learn rather than keep looking foolish by repeating that Sashi sucks over and over again I suggest you google what we were trying to accomplish under Sashi and then look to see what we did in regards to "the plan," you might actually come away understanding better.

Is it greedy to want the #1 overall pick while still winning at least one game? I really dislike losing in general but 0-16 especially rubs me the wrong way. 1-15 will get the #1 overall pick almost every time. 2-3 wins often will as well.

Ahh well, no need to worry about that kind of nonsense anymore

At least I'm willing to admit they both sucked. And I'm not giving Sashi credit for a first round pick you get every year no matter who the GM would have been. I mean you do realize that every team receives a first round pick in every draft by the league right?

I mean I guess you could give Sashi credit that he gave Hue such a sucky roster that no matter who was coaching we still would have ended up with the #1 pick if you want to. But I don't think you want to do that.

It would be counter intuitive to the silly points you've been trying to make wouldn't it?

It may make one feel better but in the grand scheme of things it really wouldn't have changed anything.

Looking at the Browns roster and the number of highly-paid players is actually pretty amazing: https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/cleveland-browns/

No other team has that luxury while still remaining far under the cap. Part of that is due to a lot of good young talent being on rookie deals, but it's also due to the money rolled over from the Sashi Brown years. So right now we actually have the highest active cap hit in the league and can still roll over money into the future, which will be needed when Garrett, Ward, Mayfield, Chubb, and others eventually get paid.

We probably should take into account the NFL's parity-seeking structure in giving the worst teams the best picks, so I can see not really wanting to give credit for picks 1, 33, etc. to Sashi or Hue.

We should absolutely give some credit to picks #4 and #35 to Sashi though. Dorsey made the picks (Ward and Chubb) but they wouldn't be here without those once-future picks acquired by Sashi. This was one of the things Sashi was actually good at, understanding that future picks are discounted too much in the league.

When you keep passing the buck from year to year by trading away your picks, you accumulate those picks. That's not rocket science. If you mean he kept trading away current picks for future picks, sure.

It's not like we were trading picks for the equivalent pick in the next draft. We were getting more and/or better picks in return.

It's like passing the bucket from year to year by investing your money, only with the NFL's strange dynamics, you get 50% annual interest on your investment.

If a pick in the current draft is (supposedly) worth a pick in the previous round in the next draft, then by extension wouldn't that mean that a 7th round pick in 2020 is worth a 1st round pick in 2026? Do you see how something like that is exploitable, with a little patience?

BUT without both the job never ever gets done. Most talent rebuilding. Biggest balls, and strongest backbone demo. You need both. Dorsey is great, BUT his ego would never have allowed him to rip the team down to the studs.

Not to mention, it's not like Sashi took over a great team when he got here.

In that respect, I'm surprised Ray Farmer doesn't come up more often in these discussions (just in case we needed another thing to argue about.)

Oh Lord don't bring him up. I supported him and I was 110 percent wrong LOL

Yet you're still having trouble admitting how wrong you still are about
Sashi.

We was like Wimpee from Popeye. "I'll gladly trade you a player today for a player tomorrow!"

That's because I am not wrong about him. He did the job he as hired to do and he did that part well.

No doubt. He was never the GM. I have no doubt that once the team started to look attractive to quality GM candidates, like John Dorsey, we would have hired a GM and Sashi would go back in to his role, or possibly a role like Team President.

Nobody would have wanted the GM role in a tear down.

But he wasn't. He was tossed out on his ear. And nobody else has given him a job in the NFL either. He was the final decision maker like every other NFL GM. You can call a pig a cow but that rump roast is still going to taste like ham.

Which is why he was givin the job. TO do what no other NFL GM would have done. It was career suicide. He knew that he knew he would never be a NFL GM which is why he took the job. He did what he was hired to do, and he was paid well for it.

You do know that's not what the claim of most is don't you? They say that Haslam took the side of Hue so he was not allowed to finish the job he was hired to do. Theories abound.

Yes Sir I know that. But I also know the truth.

So they signed him to longer contract than they planned on him being here for?

The planned on him gutting the team, and hoped that he could also make some good picks. But they planned on bringing in somebody who knew what the [censored] he was doing, when he realized just how build a new team.

I understand that. The relationship between Sashi and Hue became toxic, leaving any other option behind.

J/C

Sashi was with the team from 13-16. Hue not as long.

Who had the better winning percentage during their tenure?

Asking for a friend...

Sashi was not great, or good. But he dang sure was better at his job than hue was/is and will ever be.

Does it really matter that one of them might have sucked a little less than the other? They both oversaw the worst record in NFL history. Good riddance to both!

That would depend.

Did any of the self-proclaimed "great football minds" tell us that Sashi was good at his job, and berate anyone who questioned such a proclamation by declaring that they just wanted Sashi fired? Numerous, multiple times?

Did Hue accomplish anything at all worthwhile to the future of the team?

Did the team improve overnite when Sashi was fired?

Really? The option was to fire Hue, Sashi, or both. I wonder if that uber talented roster and QB room had anything to do with it?

Or that's just what you're trying to put into people's mouths...

You know what they say about opinions don't you? Everybody has one. And not everyone shares yours. You can read the thread yourself to see that different people have different theories.

I mean he fired Sashi and kept Hue. You do the math.

As long as you can do the math, we'll be ok.

I just did.

You're welcome.

Yep. When given the choice Sashi was gone first. Still didn't get a second NFL job. Nothing to see here folks. The best he ever hopes to do in the NFL is as a team lawyer. Hue lasted longer than Sashi and they both sucked.

In case you still needed a lesson in basic addition.

And here I thought you could do math...

Says the man who can't figure out that Sashi was let go before Hue.

I'm convinced of one of two things. You are either intent on arguing just to argue, or the concepts within this thread are way over your head.

You mean contrived concepts. It's what people need to do in order to try and twist simple, basic facts to try and come up with something that in their own minds sounds like something they want to hear.

The facts are simple. The facts are easy to see. When push came to shove, Haslam felt they both sucked. But what he did know was this. Sashi was fielding and produced a crappy team. You will never get where you need to go with a crappy roster.

Hue hadn't been given a roster with the talent at any of the skilled positions to win. So the answer seems basic enough when you look at the facts rather than some of the spin people post on here.

Haslam saw that Sashi had done a crappy job at building a roster and Hue had never been given a roster to win with.

So he ditched Sashi and gave Hue a chance with a far better roster. Hue did poorly with that better roster so he was the next out the door.

Everything else is just spin.

That's pretty much what you do with every post with your crazy strawmen arguments. You somehow keep claiming that people think Sashi was a great GM because he was able to build a great team, and then keep pointing out that the roster sucked.

The facts are these:
- Sashi wanted 4-5 years to fully execute a rebuild.
- The first phase was to take a few years to strip down and amass draft capital and cap space.
- The second phase was to use those two things to build a solid team.

From that standpoint, he did a great job in the first phase, and that's the ONLY thing people are giving him credit for. You can say all day long, "Well that's easy", but if it's so easy, then why can nobody do it? Part of it is that nobody has the patience to really stick to their guns and do a full rebuild. Most of the time, they'll strip the team down in a year, then try to quickly build it back up by the next year, squandering the draft picks and cap space in an attempt at a quick fix. Sashi didn't do that, so when Dorsey came into the picture, he was practically waking into a dream job for a GM. Two years before, and it's doubtful that a guy of Dorsey's caliber even considers the job, because the draft capital and cap situations were a complete mess. THAT is what people thank Sashi for.

Yep, the crappiest roster in the NFL was all a part of the plan. Seriously?

Looks like it's the latter.

Still making excuses for ineptitude and trying to blame others for it.

Not sure how many times we have to explain this concept to you. But check out teams like the 2011-2012 Cubs or Golden State before 2012. Or heck, the Cavs from 2010-2013 or Indians pre-1995 if you want local examples. The main goal is to amass draft capital and set up your team for 4-5 years down the road. It's not necessarily to make the crappiest roster possible, but it's also not about trying to throw in a quick fix that's going to net you one or two wins in a season where you aren't in a position to win much anyway.

The plan was to put the team in a position where they were loaded with draft picks, cap space and tradable assets, where in two to three years a GM could pull the trigger and quickly construct a team because they had all the means to do so. Everything else was secondary. By that metric, Sashi did pretty well. So when you keep throwing out strawmen about how crappy the roster was, how little we won, or who got fired first ... then you're missing the point.

Why does it matter that Sashi was sent packing first?

Jimmy obviously had no idea what he was doing for the large majority of his ownership here, so saying that Jimmy fired Sashi first as evidence of anything is really kind of strange, and might even work against the very argument you are trying to make.

(I do appreciate that the Haslams do appear to have gotten it together and the team is firmly on the right track, but this has not always been the case!)

Truthfully, I think pride and contractual status were much bigger factors in keeping Clueless Hue around, even when it was completely obvious to most of us that he was in over his head. Remember that Jimmy overruled the front office, who wanted to hire Sean McDermott (who coached a team in tank mode to the playoffs in his first season.)

As far as contracts go, Hue's deal was never made public, but various reports suggested it to be a 5-6 year deal in the mold of what Kyle Shanahan got in San Francisco. I'm guessing Jimmy wasn't very enthused about buying that out after year 2.

It's a fair point.

Hopefully once training camp and pre-season roll around, we can put all this stuff behind us. It's a bunch of silly arguing.

What's a Sashi Brown?

It really doesn't matter they were equally as bad. As long as people are willing to admit that. But they have nothing but more excuses as to why Sashi was better.

I mean their saying is, "Sashi died do that we could live". It makes him sound almost Christ like.

edit: time to just let this one go

Of course it's the latter.

My guess is 90% of the board sees it and doesn't say anything because it's somewhat entertaining. At least for me it is.

Maybe you're talking to the wrong people. A guy who was fired and sent packing because he had no clue what he was doing is somehow being heralded as far more than he ever was or will be and people really should let that go.

While they act like they have some superiority complex actually the opposite is pretty much true.

Sashi is gone because he sucked. According to some having the worst roster in the NFL was the goal. Yet they can't see how stupid that sounds.

This is not at all what we have been saying, that is what you have twisted what we have been saying into. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you, yet again. As for the air of superiority, that is all you.

Having a firm grasp of the obvious doesn't doesn't take superiority.

j/c



Truer words have never been typed...

hmmm...I wonder if Sashi himself surprised when
he was shown the door?

Wah.

I doubt it. Sashi knew his time was limited. The Browns hadn't had a winning record since 2007 and only 2 winning seasons since their return in 1999 and with the constant Coaching and Front Office turnover plus the fact that the core of the roster at that time were either toward the ends of their careers or being paid and not producing Sashi and Jimmy knew that no proven quality GM was going to take the job so they came up with a plan to overhaul the team to make it attractive enough that they could hire a guy like Dorsey. Sashi knew that once the job became attractive enough that he would be replaced.

Hue Jackson got hired by a basketball team too — the Washington Generals.

Sashi Brown has another job — in another sport

Posted by Darin Gantt on July 22, 2019, 9:40 AM EDT
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/07/22/sashi-brown-has-another-job-in-another-sport/

The Browns thought they were being outside-the-box when they put Sashi Brown in charge of their football operation.

When it didn’t work, his next job came from outside the sport.

The NBA’s Washington Wizards announced this morning that Brown was hired as chief planning and operations officer He joins new General Manager Tommy Sheppard in the rebuilt front office for the Wizards — who have some Brown-ish tendencies in their own sport.

“We have formed a new leadership team with a forward-thinking structure to adapt to the ‘new NBA’ that requires every possible strategic advantage to compete and win,” Wizards chairman and CEO Ted Leonsis said in a statement that’s pumped as full of buzzwords as the Browns were in bad draft picks during Brown’s leadership. “We are building a leadership brain trust with deep Wizards/NBA experience and with sports professionals from inside and outside the NBA to challenge our thinking and adapt to an ever-increasing competitive environment.”

The team’s release said Brown would “manage efforts relating to technology, finance, communications, security, research and player engagement,” which means he’s not making basketball decisions.

Brown’s background is in law, and he worked as counsel for the Jaguars and Browns before being given the reins in one of Jimmy Haslam’s many shakeups.

And while you can’t put all the blame for his tenure in Cleveland on him (Hue Jackson was there too), another leadership role in football was probably unlikely.

It will be interesting to see how he does without DePodesta.
If he can get someone aboard that can fill those shoes, then I'd say that you can maybe expect them to follow our path: suck for a couple of years and emerge positioned to make gigantic leaps.

But really ... if you want to tear a team down to the studs Sashi is the dude

Ya ... thats really tough to do ... took a real menZa to tear it down ...

I’m part of the group that prefers VG to Kenny Britt and that would rather avoid trading for and then giving huge contracts to bums like Jamie Collins meanwhile letting guys like Schwartz walk ...

But that’s just me ...

to the sashiettes ... Congrats ... your boy got another job in sports ... shocked its not football seeing as how he did such a great job with us .... ...

For a dude that failed in baseball u guys sure give him an awful lot of credit ...

The goal is to win the World Series ... none of the teams he was with ever won the World Series ... not once ... and in LA he left the team is MUCH WORSE shape than they were in than when he got there ..

I don’t understand all the love for depo when it comes ot personal decisions ... analytics does not fit well in football when it comes to talent evaluation ...

I mean ... did Depo drive the Britt move ... did he say Schwartz cost to much ... did he say collins was a must sign? ...

In other areas of football .. i get it .. in personal decisions ... i don’t see it ... at best i see analytics confirming what the scouts see ... like with Bake ... KJ LOVED him long before he got here ... its well documented that KJ was all over him before he got here ...

Don’t take this as me disliking depo or not understanding analytics is an outstanding tool in other areas ... i just don’t see how it help in personal decisions other than maybe determining value for a FA ... but sashi gave big deals to Britt and Collins ... u can’t give big money to dudes like that and expect to win ...

And i don’t think its a coincidence that the sashiettes think VG is overpaid based 100% on stats witch is analytics ... they take nothing else into account ... like the situation here last year, his leadership and blocking skills ...

Congrats Sashi.

the Wizards are a desperate franchise.
they havent been relevant since they were the Bullets.
Im not sure how Sasha fits in if you are looking to progress.
watch now Ray Farmer will get hired by the Kings
Tom Heckert will get hired....oh wait..
hes not around.

No doubt tearing down is way easier than building up ... and, yes, his FA was trash lol

Well signing good FA talent would have totally disrupted "the process".

He also signed Zietler and Trettier also ... so it wasn’t all bad ...

Imagine how good we’d be this year if he didn’t let Schwartz walk ... it would be even more unfair ... *L* ...

I wonder if device and memph and the rest of the sashiettes are gonna become wizard fans now .... ...

Yeah, losing Mack was more understandable than Schwartz ... that was just BAD

I thought I saw them in the crowd. Okay, so it's not actually a crowd.

He also signed Jason McCourty. He was a good player. In fact, he'd probably still be here too, if it weren't for these (rather truthful) comments:

I gave sashi credit for even getting Mack to come back and give us a shot .... he had no shot to keep Mack ... NONE ... dude had seen enough ....

Schwartz was an entirely different story ... when the current basketball executive was promoted by the thief he said we’d be cleaning house and looking to keep the good young talent and aquire more ...

Well Schwartz fit the description of a good young talent to a T back then ... it was a real head scratch for me ...

Save it sashiettes or the sashiettes apologists .... giving the excuse Schwartz only came back to us to gain leverage for the ongoing negotiation for the chefs ... thats BS and an excuse .. we slammed the door in his face on that for no good reason at all ... Sashi and/or depo drew a line in the sand out of stupidity ...

1st off ... there’s way to avoid letting him using it as leverage against the chiefs ....

2ndly ... who cares if we get him more money from the chiefs .... WHO CARES about that ...

Sashi and Depo drew a line in the sand to supposedly discourage other free agents from testing the market in the future ... well think that one through and see if u can find the MAJOR FLAW in that theory ... ...

Schwarts either just married, or was about to marry, a girl from Cleveland. He wanted to stay here.

Now I have no proof of this, but I suspect that Sashi gave him an offer. Schwartz's brother, who had played for KC, said to him that he owed it to himself to check out the Chiefs. He did, and they did not give him an offer he wanted to accept. then Sashi yanked our offer, probably hoping to low-ball him ..... so Schwartz went back to KC to sign there.

Again, this is me just piecing together what was reported with my own fertile imagination.

Yeah, good info guys ... Schwartz was the one who got away and would be IDEAL for us right now ... bad mistake

Wow ... thats worse than how i recall it ... *L* ...

I thought we made our offer ...
he went to the chefs and they made a better offer ...
schwartz wanted to come back to us too negotiate
We slammed the door in his face cause we wanted to prove a point to other FA’s we were not to be used as leverage with other teams .....

I’m sure your right as all i knew is that we lost him w/o even a small skirmish and that went totally against what we we told Sashi would be doing by Sashi ...

Sashi did Some good things here ... no doubt he left the table set like NO OTHER .. he also did a lot of REALLY BAD THINGS ... and even as well as he set the table ... we were blessed to have things work out the way they did ... lots of stars aligned for us along the way starting with KJ sitting there 1/2 way through the season for us to hire ...

Oh ... thanks for the info ...

I'm just happy for him that he found a new home. I'd hate to hear of him living under the overpass.

I agree ... he would have definitely been here last year ... this year ... i’m not so sure ...

He is an average NFL CB ..

Not sure what your point is .. i know your a closet sashiette ... so i’m not sure what your point is ...

Not that it matters at this point ... water under the bridge ...

I am happy for the guy.


Kind of like John Collins losing out to Opie.


We would have been better keeping John Collins and dumping the football guy Savage.

Sashi will do well.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/7/22/20704244/sashi-brown-washington-wizards-cleveland-browns

I remember when some here said Sashi would never get another front office job.

front office job as in the NFL.
its funny that the 2 architects of the Browns 1 and 31 campiegn is a failed baseball poindexter and a NBA
throw spaghetti on the wall hire by a franchise stuck in neutral

Boom.

Does this mean Sashi is no longer going to do his own podcasts?!?!

I hope it means he’ll do more

You mean one that involved the players? At least the Wizards are smart enough to know what he's good at. And what he isn't.

J/C

Some on here said Baker was a idiot for bashing hue for taking another job. Yet those same are now bashing Sashi for taking another job. It gets richer every day.

Anyone wanna bet sashi wins more games than hue this year?

Sashi will play no role in coaching, recruiting, player negotiation or contract talks. As such, Sashi won't win any more games than Hue will.

Unlike in Cleveland, the Wizards actually figured out what Sashi is good at and what he isn't good at.

And it's funny, nobody s trashing Sashi for getting another job. Just pointing out that his new job has nothing to do with the players or anything having to do with personnel in any way.

As it should be.

Don't think anyone is bashing Sashi for taking a job. They are bashing the organization who hired him.

I hope so ... they play 82 games in hoops ... way to go out on a limb ... crap ... no matter how bad they are they oughta top Sashi’s win record here within the first 4 or 5 games .... i mean winning one game is a pretty tall order ... ...

I don’t think of u when I refer to the sashiettes ... should i start? ...

I’m not slamming the sashter ... have no ill will towards him ... i thanked him shortly after he left ... the sashiettes on the other hand .... ...

Not at all, I wasn't a huge fan of Sashi, but at least give him some credit, he had Hue Jackson to work with.

Others bash him for being inept, yet praised the coaching staff - its rather amusing to me.

Who would that be exactly? The only thing I've heard are the people who felt Hue deserved a shot with some better talent. He got that chance for eight games and did a poor job with the talent Dorsey gave him to work with.

So unless you can actually find those "others" you speak of, I think you're just blowing smoke out of your butt.

Don't see why anybody should be bashing Sashi as he did exactly what he was hired to do, make the team attractive enough for a true GM.

I remember when he got fired some on here were actually upset about it and acted like the Browns made such
a erronous decision to can him.
like it was the end of the world or something.

j/c

Ok. Let's review...

2016: 1-15, Hue's a good coach, "GM" needs to get better players.
2017: 0-16, Hue's a good coach, "GM" needs to get better players.
2018: 2-5-1, GM did a great job gaining talent, Hue is a bad coach.


Raise your hand if you see it.

Get ready for a bunch of straw man arguments.

...

Straw man like ...

- Sashi brought us the following to QB rooms

RG3 , L. McCown and C. Kessler ...

D. Kizer, C. Kessler, K. Hogan

How could anyone lose with those great QB rooms especially when RG3 and McCown are both gone before the end of week 2 ... after that 3 rookie BUSTS and a 2nd year dude with no game experience who isn’t really a bust considering where he was drafted IF he was even drafted ...

Dude sure knew how to build a QB room ...

I did not know u were a sashiette ... when your only defense of your guy is ..Hue sucked worse ... you oughta re-think your stance ...

Another straw man argument is prolly the fact he did such a bad job here he had to switch sports ..... u prolly spin that to he did such a great job here another sport wanted him .. ...

Do you even know what a straw-man is? It's basically bringing up an argument that nobody is making to knock it down and prove yourself right.

Things like, "Dude sure knew how to build a QB room ..."

dont forget Osweiler too.

Call it what u want .... i call it a FACT ... ....

I am estimated about 14000 NFL games have been played since 1920. Hue Jackson was able to win 3 of them as a HC for our team.

I don't care how bad a team is. Statistically speaking, he should have randomly won 4 games in the span he was a coach.

But he was a "leader of men" and a "great motivator" to some.

Let you in a little secret, a great motivator does more with less. So to be a great motivator in the NFL, regardless of how bad the talent was - we should have got better even marginally. We did not. You cannot argue the roster when the roster he was given never got better after the fact. The roster sucked yes, but it never got better because he stunk as a coach.

And the only one actually brought to us by Sashi was Hogan, who was acquired off waivers when RG3 went down.

RG3 was a Hue decision.
McCown was signed by Farmer.
Kizer and Kessler were drafted by DePodesta and the scouting department with approval from Hue.

And sashi brown was 0 - 24 or worse... they were a heck of a tandem ...

Again ... your defending your boy sashi with how bad hue was ...thats a weak ass defense bro ...

go wizards ...

Im not defending sashi, because I don't like hue doesn't equate I like sashi. You guys don't seem to get this.

Shashi was garbage
hue was even worse

I will say though, sashi a better GM than Hue was a coach. He at least drafted guys that are still in the league - but they had to leave hues coaching to do so.

So one was hot garbage and one was cold garbage?

I guess you measure garbage by degrees.

Why can't you just fess up and say they both sucked?

People act like it was Hue who signed off on the QB's. Sashi had to sign off on every move we made.

People need to stop with the. "My garbage was better than your garbage" BS.

I 100% get it mr smarty pants ...

Ya .... both his QB rooms i believe are all in the nfl but one ... McCown retired ... they’ve all gone on to STELLAR careers since leaving Hue .... ...

I’m out ...

I wish I could produce a big red X and loud buzzer sound whenever someone brings up either the Roster or the Record when it comes to arguing Sashi. He was executing a 5 year rebuild where the first two years were to scrap down the roster and amass as much draft capital and tradable assets as he could to make the team actually attractive to a potential GM. By that metric, and that metric only, people give kudos to Sashi for doing a good job.

I don't know how many times we need to explain it. For the first two years his goal was not to win games. It wasn't to build a formidable roster or give out big contracts to guys that would net a few more wins but ultimately be off the team by year 4 or 5. Losing wasn't the goal, but winning wasn't really the goal either.

His goals were to:
1) Clear cap space
2) Have an abundance of high draft picks
3) Have trade-able assets

... so that by Year THREE, all of those could be used to build a good team. With those goals in mind, can anyone say he did a bad job?

And if your response involves the words "roster" or "record", you're bringing up a straw man and you get a big red "X".

Again, Diam..your missing the point.

They are still in the league, and more than likely are better after leaving hue than being under his "coaching".

Im not saying Sashi is a gm of heroes, but he did hit a couple guys. Hue hit on zip, 0, nothing.

The straw man argument is "He was paid to make us suck"

Yet he won more games with Dorsey's first year roster than he did the entire year before with Sashi's roster. Hmmmm....

It is. So why do you keep making it?

I wasn't the one making it.

You are too ... you are claiming that people are arguing that "he was paid to make us suck", which nobody has said.

It's an oversimplification of what I said, and a false dilemma at best. I said his job was to amass assets and put the team in a good position to build in Year 3. Like you always do, you've converted that to the strawman of "His job was to make us suck", which is what nobody has argued. If that was really his job, then Dorsey would have passed on a situation with no draft assets, no cap space and no easy way to build a team.

The reasons you posted have ALWAYS been the excuse of why we sucked when Sashi was in charge. Where the hell have you been?

Let me keep this simple for you:

Sashi's goals for his first two years were to:
1) Clear cap space
2) Amass an abundance of high draft picks
3) Amass trade-able assets

Did he do those three things? Try to answer that without attempting to rephrase what I'm saying.

Yes he did. Now let me pose a question to you.

If you gut your teams talent, refuse to address the QB position, constantly trade down in the draft, how could you avoid accomplishing those goals?

You have to consider everything and not look at things in a bubble.

It's like saying he drafted Kizer on purpose because he knew Kizer was a terrible QB. Because had Kizer have been better, we wouldn't have had that high of a draft pick.

So was it really Sashi that netted us Mayfield, or was it Kizer? Or is it your contention that Sashi meant to draft a QB that sucked in round 2?

Got it.

Great! I guess we can end the thread now, because that's all "pro-Sashi" people have ever argued.




You don't, and that's sort of the point. Trying to plug holes in the middle of a rebuild is sort of like throwing up drywall while you're tearing the rest of the house down. Drafting a QB that may or may not bust while you're trying to piece the rest of the team together accomplishes what? And if you're really loading a team up for a real GM to take over in Year 3, what good does tying him to a QB he may not like really do?

Same thing for free agent talent. When you're goal is trying to maximize cap space for year 3, what good does signing up free agents do when the aim isn't necessarily to win right now? For the chance that he stays worth the money and useful in Year 3? Otherwise, you're tying your GM to another player and a chunk of cap-space.

Most moves that Sashi seemed to make were with those three goals in mind. Drafting Kizer was likely because he was a potential first round talent that fell to the second round. There's some trade value in that. We ended up flipping him for Damarious Randall. Trading for Brock Osweiler wasn't because we wanted a sucky QB to drag us down, it was for the 2nd round pick that came with him, basically for free. That netted us Nick Chubb. Passing on Carson Wentz wasn't because we wanted to avoid winning. It was likely because we didn't want to risk tying ourselves to an unknown commodity could have been a complete bust by Year 3 of the rebuild. Instead, we got a pile of assets that ended up turning into guys like Kindred, Kizer (Randall), Peppers (OBJ) and Ward.

Some people can't see very far down the road.

I admire your persistence to argue with them. I'm starting to realize they are either just trying to argue just to argue or they really don't get it.

I mean, Sashi's plan obviously worked or he wouldn't have been hired by the Wizards. They've already lost the argument that Sashi won't ever get another front office job in sports. He's got one now.

Things they will never understand... Sashi wasn't hired to be the GM in Cleveland. He wasn't here to be the talent evaluator. And as much as some of them want to make up that Sashi was hard to work with, nothing could be further from the truth. These are the facts they continue to ignore, and when these facts are ignored, they will never "get it."

And when someone says Sashi "didn't address the quarterback position," it pretty much shows they have no idea what they are talking about. It's just another agenda driven lie.

And yet he wound up with the final say on talent as the Browns' ..... well, whatever title he finished up with here.

Who is Sashi Brown, the Cleveland Browns' new executive VP of football operations? - cleveland.com
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2016/01/who_is_sashi_brown_the_clevela.html





Except, I cannot recall us hiring a GM under Brown. We hired a VP in charge of player personnel in Andrew Berry. Was he even the de facto GM? No.

In fact, he just left the Browns for a promotion ... to assist the Eagles' GM.

Browns personnel exec Andrew Berry takes promotion with Eagles - cleveland.com
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/02...ith-eagles.html







Sashi Brown was the GM, (even without the title) with the final say over the roster. He didn't have the title GM, but he had the powers of the GM, and he exercised those powers in his time in charge of football operations with the Browns.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS ... ...

PS. those of us rooted in reality call them FACTS ...

I don't disagree with the things you posted. What I said was that Sashi wasn't hired to be the GM and Sashi wasn't the talent evaluator. If you want to call him the de facto GM, that's fine. Doesn't change that the things I said are facts.

Maybe he wasn't hired to be those things, but he absolutely took on those roles.

It's like saying "John drove the car, but he is not the driver."

Or it's like calling you the bus driver, because you're taking him to school.

Not quite.

I don't believe he took on those roles. I believe as intended when hired, the lot of them assessed the team needs and what direction to go. There was no true GM, or no "John Dorsey" running the ship. If there was, that man was Jimmy Haslam.

Sashi wasn't a true GM. He knew he had no experience at coaching or talent evaluating so he left things like that up to the people who were hired to do it and only stepped in it when there was a disagreement. Sashi was just the overseer.

j/c:

People are forgetting Andrew Berry and his team of scouts were the main talent evaluators. But yes, Sashi made the final call on whether to choose a player, trade up/down, etc.

And decision maker ( to be fair) based on all available information as it pertained to the plan aka the points Excel referenced in a earlier post

Some of those decisions didn't work out but most were good, IMO.

If that were only true.






So you think Sashi drafted a crappy QB in round two, wasting that pick on purpose. You realize that even you could have done that, right?





Yeah, Kenny Britt was a wasted signing on purpose. You could have done that too.



You've made more excuses for Sashi than I can count.

Do you really expect anyone to take this BS seriously?

You're stating that he did things even THROW LONG could have done.

I think everybody in the circle knew they couldn't attract a "real" GM when the plan was to bottom out, so they went with what they had. Brown was only the decision maker if people in the draft room couldn't agree on a player. When one group wanted player A and another wanted player B he listened to both and had to cast the deciding vote.

They also thought they had the perfect coach in Hue, but it became clear he wasn't anywhere near good as a head coach and he began to bail on the plan, pointing fingers, etc.

Sashi got a top level job doing what he does best. Hue does nothing best and is still on the sideline.

In my book, you can't discuss Sashi without discussing Hue, so maybe we should focus on his sorry butt for a few weeks if constant rehash is what you guys want to do.

Where have you been Peen!?

People have been focusing on his butt ever since he left. Including our QB.

I'm not sure how you missed it.

No man, read the thread.....it all about Sashi, so now I turn it to the crappy head coach in the NFL ever.


Hue....LOL....I'll stop

Well it is a Sashi thread. I guess we could be talking about animals on the endangered species list too.

2-5-1 baby! Wooohoooo!

Weird that as soon as a never before OC and defunct DC took over, our offense was one of the best in the league, and our guys actually started to show development. hmmmm

J/C

I think its weird that the second you say something negative about baby-Huey a few posters instantly start screaming "it was sashi's fault!"

Cause yeah, it was Sashi's fault Hue stunk before he was here, while he was here, and after he was here.

Sashi is not here for a reason. He stunk. But to say Hue was a good coach and Sashi was the only reason he stunk as a coach is not only laughable, but down right idiotic. There is a reason Hue was fired from two teams in the same year (at least he has one NFL record).

Could you please name the posters who said this? Because there weren't any. You're just making BS up.

Let me tell you what "people said" so you can hopefully get it right next time.

People said that the roster that Sashi put together was not a competitive roster. Something you seem to agree with since you said, "Sashi is not here for a reason. He stunk."

What people said was the Hue deserved a shot with a roster that had talent he could win with. You know, a fair shot.

Now let me ask you who stood up for Hue after he did so poorly with the roster Dorsey put together? I got news for you, you won't hardly find anyone, if anyone who did.

You can just make up some revisionist history if you like, but it's a lie.

Crap statement. you know very well what someone kept saying that hue was a "great motivator" and a "great coach" and he shouldn't have been fired because of the roster he was given.


Don't play coy now.

He had a very fair shot. Name me one other coach that would have had a job after 1-31. None. Hue was given a shot and went 2-5-1 with the same team that won 5 games as soon as he was crapped canned.

Revisionist history? Go to the Hue was fired thread and see the comments. They are there for you, all of us remember.

Hue Jackson's excuse was Sashi Brown, and he was embarrassingly wrong.

So you're making all of this fuss over what "one poster" said? And no, I don't remember who that was. I don't keep silly crap loaded in my memory bank. So who was that?



No, all of us don't. Most of us don't bury bones in the yard to dig them up later.

I certainly told you what I and many others said.

So why don't you name names since you seem to be so unable to let it go?

They both sucked. Time to move on and quit blaming one or the other.

Wait for it...Wait....

Here it comes....

Buckle up.....

What's a Sashi Brown?

You forgot to like your post.

YOU jumped the gun there Pit!

I agree, yet here we are on a Sashi Brown thread.

I haven't posted on this thread since the OP of the thread. I started it because some folks can't let it go and they were ruining good threads w/the Sashi/Hue BS.

Here is what you don't get, peen. NO ONE IS DEFENDING HUE. Those of us who did have moved on despite the constant insults you and others throw out there daily. But you Sashi guys can't move on from Sashi.

That's why it's a Sashi thread, peen. You guys refuse to let it go.

Hopefully, this is the last post on this thread. I've been waiting to respond until I thought it might get locked. I'll start another one for you guys to continue on w/your crusade. And remember this peen..............NOT ONE PERSON is talking highly of Hue at this point. We all moved on after he was fired. Perhaps if you Sashi guys would move on, all of this nonsense would end?