The Good:

--Manziel put up big numbers. Threw the ball from the pocket and outside the pocket. Scrambled. Was accurate. He was our best player.

--Kruger made some nice plays.

--Benji had good numbers.

--Run defense was better.

--Barnidge had another TD.

The Bad:

--Johnny holds the ball too long.

--Playcalling. Why go Wildcat in the red zone when you have JM? Stupid. No running in second half.

--Turnovers. Penalties. Plays coming in late. Missed extra point. Poor punt.

The Ugly:

--Our corners. Gaines, Desir, Williams, Bademosi all got smoked.

--Glad we stashed Gaines on short term IR.

--We were so over matched talent wise. It was pathetic. My wife and son are Steeler fans and they actually felt sorry for my daughter and I. That's beyond ugly. But watch, I bet the majority of the fans will blame Pet and call to have him fired. It's the Brown's way and nothing is uglier than that!

How did I forget this HUGE UGLY?

--Cameron Erving is atrocious. He is so weak. He gets bull rushed, blown-up, pushed back into the backfield. He reaches, he grabs, he plays w/no leverage. Freaking ugly!

I mentioned in the game day thread that I don't think he has an ounce of muscle on his body.

I can't believe how weak he is. It's unreal. You know what......Manziel is actually the best player Farmer has brought in. How crazy is that?

The good

Johnny played really well despite being under a lot of pressure.

Kirksey may have had his best game as a pro.


Benji on most of his plays.

The fade to Barnidge may have been the best we have ever made that play look. It was so good we never ran it again when we were back into the redzone.

Johnny's pump faked everyone out of their shoes to bad the refs stole that TD along with Benji's TD.
Danny Shelton really had a good game today. when he was in there he was a force in the middle.

The bad
Penalties i mean come on man. 1st and goal from the one inch line u run 3 plays and its first and 30.

More penalties, the secondary was horrible and they were mugging the Steeler receivers and still couldnt stop them.

we made no attepts to actually blitz and get pressure on a wounded Big Ben. rush 3 or 4 and let the receivers beat our corners.

The ugly
Joe thomas had the only QB sack for the Browns

Johnny nearly had his neck broke. My grandmaw used to do chickens that way. lol

You pull Johnny and go with the wildcat when u are really getting some momentum going. That was just stupid

I saw one play where Shelton could not even get into a stance. He is out of shape.

The good:

Manziel. he hit multiple targets. besides the WTF fumble at the beginning, he played well.

Benji and Barnidge played well.

K Waun keeps playing very well.

The bad:

our entire defense

Hawkins and Manziel's fumble

Benji dropping the TD pass in the 4th.

The ugly:

our team. specifically defense and the offensive line. the penalties were just......all i could do was laugh.

The refs. that should've been a TD run by Manziel.

Last time I checked a GOOD coach should be able to squeeze extra out of inferior players. What does this coach bring to the table? Our record is going backwards, we are unprepared mentally and physically and as the coach he is in charge of his coordinators. Jim O'neal is in way over his head, and we continue to keep him in his job. Some can say we do not have talent but look at Haden for an example. He has regressed over the last couple of seasons to the point where he is a liability just like the rest of our corners are we going to say he doesn't have talent? Sorry but this coaching and FO sucks u can spin it how ever you want but its like putting lip stick on a pig at the end of the day. I don't want to go thru the pain of starting over again but nobody respects this soft, undersized, finesse and hartless team. IF this team had half of the hart as us fans, we would be on the other side of this mess each week.

The Good:

Manziel had a pretty nice game.

Lee had some punts downed from the 10 yard line and in.

The Bad

Cameron Erving. He's bad, very bad.

Pierre Desir. Hell, the whole secondary.

We still have 6 more of these damn games to play.

The Ugly

Penalties. This has become absurd.

Coaching is beyond pathetic.

Ball at the 6 inch line and the offense manages to go backwards about 26 yards.

Drops and fumbles by the receivers.

This team is an absolute mess with no direction or leadership.

Not sure if true and may have been a bit of hyperbole but I heard a comment recently that the Browns had almost 90% of their budget dedicated to the defense and offensive line. Now thats ugly.

The penalties are annoying. That goes on the coaching staff.

On the other hand, we had several PI calls. Those calls had more to do w/our corners being dominated by the Steeler receivers. That goes on our lack of talent.

That would be ugly.

Vers I have never been part of any team that played with this much of a total lack of discipline. Hell even in highschool players know the damn snap count or what is and isnt an illegal formation. Maybe we just have a roster full or morons but it just drives me nuts with seeing the same things week after week.

The Good: The few good things were already mentioned.

The bad: Clock management. Why in the hell did Pettine call time out with the clock running down at the half. That decision gave Pittsburgh what they needed to go up 21-3. His use of timeouts has been abysmal all year.

The ugly: Our running plays. Good God they are telegraphed. No stunting, Manziel sticks the ball out in front of the designated hole long before the runner is ready to take it. No other teams seem to do this. We rushed for a total of 15 yards today, let that sink in.

OL - the entire line was getting blown off the ball. Every time I think Schwartz is getting it together he's on his ass in the backfield. Cfrs posted a gif of Erving getting knocked backwards off his feet while Heywood tackled Crowell as he was taking the snap. It was pathetic. There were times Manziel had defenders on him before he finished his drop.

Penalties - we are so damned undisciplined. That has to fall on coaching.

My interest in this team. It's going fast. I stopped watching in the 4th qtr. to winterize my lawn tractor and change the oil in my snowblower. I should have done it at halftime. I just don't care like I used to.

Pittsburgh was getting ready to score. We called the timeouts to save time for our offense. That wasn't stupid.

You had to at least consider we'd get a stop...which meant we'd have the ball on the 1 or less.

I guess..........but, if they would have scored......everyone would be freaking out how we didn't call any timeouts at the end of the half, just like they did a week or two ago.

I though he managed well. If Pitt would have scored and we only had 15 seconds left before halftime, you'd be making the same complaint that he managed the clock bad. That was good call by Pet, just didn't work out.

And I don't like Pet, I think he's awful.

He's a fat blob. His diet needs strict monitoring.

The Good:

Johnny Manziel is continuing to show growth and not getting too frustrated despite all the awful crap that this team does.

Orchard was awesome on the edge in run D. He only let contain break once and ended up forcing a fumble on that play. He also did better than I expected in coverage. Still he (or anybody else for that matter) didn't get any pass rush, so that's a bummer.

Nice to see Hartline contributing and not just Barnidge and Benjamin.


The Bad:

Cameron Erving. Wow. It's almost unbelieveable how bad he has been. If you count up how many times he's been on his butt this year in his 150 or so snaps, is it more or less than all the other AFC North OL combined?

The running game. Just terrible. I can't even say if our RBs are good or bad there are so many people in the backfield. Both Erving and (sadly) Mack have been really bad in this regard.

The people whose job it is to rush the passer. I can't even call it a pass rush, because nobody is feeling rushed.


The Ugly:

Penalties. Ugly, ugly penalties. Giving them a free play and then compounding it with a huge penlty (twice!) The penalties after having first and goal from the half yard line. Armonty's Leaping penalty giving them 4 points.

The spot on Manziel's scramble. That was a TD by half a yard.

Two of the worst players on our 53-man roster are first round draft picks from the last two years.

Putting players who are too slow or too small on a one-trick pony wideout when you actually have the perfect player to cover him that you make inactive. Because eff that guy.

Taking the timeouts at the end of the first half AND THEN PLAYING GIVE-UP BALL WHEN YOU GET THE BALL BACK! Why are you stopping the clock if you're not going to try to move the ball when you get it back?! Unbelieveable.

400 yards of offense and only 9 points.

Good: Manziel was decent, not spectacular, nothing I would call my brother and boast about but not embarrassing either. Our receivers were for the most part, decent.

Bad: Oline. The whole group. JT on his back tripping Johnny.

Ugly: Defense. Paint them black with a white stripe down their back, they stink. Irving. Penalties. I heard a stat today that we have two more yards in penalties than we do rushing yards for the season. That is serious skunk stinky.

Bad: our defence and our pass protection, and run game.

Good: JM, our attitude today.

Ugly: 74 looks like a raw rookie. Bowled over, outmanned

I went back and checked on Erving's combine numbers and he benched 225 30 times. Not George Lilja, but not terrible.
Of course, I fully realize that doesn't mean he doesn't play soft and weak. I am not defending him, so please don't spaz on me. I just also thought he seemed very flabby and soft and played terrible, so I checked.
Looks like another terrible first round pick.

I really think losing both Shanny and our OL coach was just to much for this line to overcome. They havent played well together all year. Erving's struggles are not the least bit surprising. I do feel however, he is gonna be a really good interior player. Hell Bitonio was top 2 or 3 at LG last year and bottom 3 year. Its more than just Erving not having strength.

Good:

Manziel. Not great, but good. One bonehead play to open the game. Next possession he had some shaky throws, but after that he really settled in and started moving the offense. Even more impressive that he did it with a joke of a running game.

WR's. Other than Benji's horrible drop, they caught just about everything.

Bad:

Running backs. Running backwards is bad. Taught at the high school level.


Ugly:

Secondary. They were awful. I don't care if it was Pierre Desir or Joe Haden. Do your job. I'm tired of making excuses for guys simply because they aren't high on the depth chart. Good teams have guys who come from the second team and make plays when called upon. That's what the league is all about. Nobody in that secondary has taken advantage of the opportunity.

The offensive line. Joe Thomas getting knocked over. Cam Erving getting blown up. Mitchell Schwartz can go too.

Officiating. Didn't decide the game, but Manziel's scramble was clearly a TD, and Pittsburgh got 3 free points because of a phantom DPI call where Williams didn't even touch the WR. Embarrassing.

CBS for having an in-game interview with Brett Keisel. Really? Is this the pre-season? I have never seen that during a game that counted. I'm so tired of the league and the media catering to the Steelers. Fouts and Eagle were laughing at that awful facemask, which was clearly dirty. If that was Brady, Manning, or Rodgers, they'd be screaming to the high heavens. Awful.

UGLY:
How about Duke Johnson trying to block a blitzing LB? He was just mauled over more than once.

NFL replay crews. How do they NOT give that rushing TD to Johnny? I could clearly see his hands beyond the goal line when his knee hit.

BAD:
TB has to make that catch in the endzone. He wimped it out thinking that Simmons was about to hit him.

That was one of the nastiest facemask grabs I've seen in years. If that was me, I'd be dead.

GOOD:
JM had his best game. He at least made plays that were interesting to watch. It's a shame the rest of the team fell apart so badly around him.

The good:
Johnny wasn't held to stay in the pocket..

the bad:
Another missed point after ..

The refs..

play calling..abandoned the run, when it could have produced more than the 4 incomplete passes for nothing

The ugly :

Steeler fan..

Steeleer player

Steeler win

ha I almost forgot about that. That was pathetic. He can do everything but block.

Good:

The Steelers. All they do and Ben does is win no matter what, injuries ect. Excuses are for losers which are the Browns. Sorry but I just have nothing good to add about this god awful performance.

Ugly:

This whole season. It's been a nightmare like every one but 2 since 99.

This Oline has been shockingly ugly and not excluding JT either this season. My goodness does Cam suck. Looks like yet another bust. Rookie or not that was an ugly ugly game. Schwartz has never been good.

The defensive backfield: did we have one today?

Why are the receivers getting so much love? They were terrible. When we need a catch the most they drop em (Benji) or if they catch them they fumble (Hawkins). This group is not pro worthy.

Coaching: All the penalties. Can this team look any more unprepared? The whole coaching staff gets a big fat F.

About the only thing to add from everyone else...

Good:
*We seem to be able to run up between the tackles..why did we stop?
*Johnny can hit the middle quick throws right up the middle - he had a few good hot hits to Barnidge


Bad:
*Lack of blitzing Ben..our 4/3 got no pressure and Ben couldn't run...he had mostly all day to through
*Our DB's seemed to always be behind the receivers..
*Not a fan of the 5 receiver set we seemed to run a lot of
*Again, our DB's never bump..we let them off the line free and clear and Ben gets the ball out very quickly.
*Our RB's when the try and go around the corner seem to always lose about 5 yards when the go BACkwards...

Ugly:
*Final Score
*I saw so many "almost" got there moments..derailed by a bad call, penalty...giving them points on just dumb penalties..instead of a FG allowing them to get a TD..sigh
*They blitz on down a lot
*We look slow at most positions compared to them
*Again, we get killed by unchecked corner blitzes..
*At the half...they had 306 passing yards... 306 at the half!
**still no pressure second half - really why don't we blitz??
*I swear out LB's just flat out seemed confused when backed into the redzone..there seems to be a disconnet between the LB's and DB's on who is cover who...

I ain't gonna spaz on you, man. You provided a legit stat. I get on guys who make crap up.

I did find that interesting, because he looks weak as heck. Did you see him getting blown up?

You know...............I don't agree w/all you guys have to say, but right now........I have a huge headache and I gotta say you guys are talking football and I appreciate that. Thanks.

Everything was ugly. From the opening fumble to the final whistle. It is unbelievable to me how truly pathetic this franchise has become. 13 of the last 15 and we get to show the entire country(anyone stupid enough to tune in)against Baltimore on Monday Night Football. Oh joy. 14 of the last 16 anyone? If I were Haslam I'd fire both Pettine and Farmer immediately. What else is there to say? Another year another horrific Browns team. Yeah, it's all ugly.... and it's only going to get uglier

Firing everyone is stupid. This team lacks talent. Fire the GM, give the coach another chance. Continuity is important.

But again...............if we land Saban, everyone needs to go.

That's gay as hell.. you put up a thread to voice an opinion...

And you post you don't agree w /all we say.. but thank us for talking football ?

SMH...really weird... I could care less if you agree or not... The good the bad the ugly... let the people speak.

You simply cant keep a coach that is putting this kind of product on the field. It may be stupid but I have a better chance of eating coal and crapping diamonds than Pet does at surviving this season with the way this team is playing. There just isnt anything at all to hang your hat on with this coaching staff.

Is this the same Saban that totally failed in Miami ?

WTF are you talking about? I was "letting people talk." That was my point. And I am not gay. Just so you know.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Mourg, do you remember when you were part of the group that called me a whiner when I questioned our talent before the season? Do you remember when you guys blasted me for some of our personnel decisions?

I saw it coming. I kept warning you guys. I said............"we'll see what y'all have to say in October." Now, reality has hit and you guys are freaking out. It was inevitable.

I know your not... but stop with the ..talk football or you don't know what your talking about crap...

That is NOT what I said, bro. Not even close. Read it again. I was actually complimenting people for talking football. Come on, man!

No one is freaking out, you may have had a correct prediction about this team but you were wrong for trying to beat down everyone with a posive attitude towards this season.

I was very hopeful that our defense and OL would show up and be a strength of this team. I had growing concerns when I began to hear the term camp cupcake and the entire practice was a walk through. I had more concerns in preseason when I began to see a softness with this team. Like I told you opening week, we are in serious trouble when the only 2 people that wanted it on opening day was the 2 quarterbacks.

I give the team a chance and go from there. This is the single worst coaching job I have seen from the Browns. His plan of building a tough team was followed with soft cuddly practices. Mental reps was his big word throughout camp.

The team is committing a dozen penalties a game and its golly gee we have to clean that up. The stuff I am blaming pet for isnt lack of talent issues but things he brought upon himself that and some horrible clock managment.

Farmer's drafts are still a wait and see but his free agency moves can quickly be evaluated. This roster is on him as 2/3 of the roster are his guys. I believe Pet is 100% gone but Farmer is more of a 50/50 proposition.

what happened to your headache ?

I don't think I was wrong. I think you guys were wrong.

And you are wrong again if you think that Pet is more of a problem than Farmer.

But, don't worry. If they fire Pet and keep Farmer......I will be done w/this POC franchise.........and many of you will be happy about that.

Why are you messing w/me?

would you believe it's because I'm so bored with the same bs talk that comes with this team.. I figured i would just talk crap.. because no matter what we say... nothing changes... I'm changing up things.. lol

LOL.............okay. Go ahead and rant. I understand. All too well.

Its almost repetitive to post on here any more Vers..

Yes we suck... why are you so negative..

Yes we will pull it together... why you so positive..

Our O-line is the best in the league... What ?

Our D is going to rock in 2015.. What ?

continuity is ...... What ?

Fire everyone... What ?

there's always next year...yep !

Do you think you can get a decent GM to take this job if you tell him he's not allowed to pick his own coach? I have my doubts if you can get one to take it anyway.... but telling a GM he's got to keep Pettine for at least another year? And I'm not saying anything bad about Pettine but most GMs want to hook their wagon to a coach of their own choosing

The ugly... 2 weeks from now, with a number of possible compelling games that week, the Monday night game could very easily be 2 teams that are 2-8... good luck making that interesting. I guess we will see if people really will watch the NFL just because.

We used to play checkers as a kid. I wasn't very good at it. In one particular game I was playing a kid I was certain I could beat. One of my friends said, "This is going to be a good game..." (Which made me feel as though he thought I was good). Then he finished saying, "...cause you both always lose."

"This is going to be a good game cause you both always lose."


So we got that going for us.

The good. Our biggest problem is not the QB


The bad ...our running game.



The Ugly... Our oline is not going to be ok. Said it all along.

Erving's play was UGLY, and hen if we get a e was only in at guard. A guy picked that high ought to be able to hold his own, even as a rookie, at guard. Otherwise, he's more of a third-round type, in my opinion.

I think we all agree Farmer should go, but there's some debate about Pettine. But man, even if we get a competent GM, we will look back for a decade on all these blown first round picks.

The only good was Manziel, and that IS good. If you think of this almost like a rookie season, given what happened last year as well as his age, you have to agree that not many 22-year-olds can play like that. Especially with no stud receivers and a subpar line (yes, sadly).

I saw enough that I would like to seen him play the rest of the year. His TD pass to Barnidge was perfect. I know a lot of people hate him, mainly for being such a screwup last year, but objectively, you have to think he might be our guy.

Let's hope that Ervings best position is center.

Manziel was great yesterday., Given the amount of playing time he gets, I thought he was pretty good. Total guts.

Benji and Barnege were good as well.

I got nothing else....

Oh boy.. I'm not so sure how that happens.. he was getting blown back every time at Guard.. if he's snapping the ball then getting smacked on his ass, that does not bode well for any type of offense we might wanna try

Heart not into it yet...so very brief.

The good... Manziel played good. Pocket and outside of pocket. Run D was the best this year.

The Bad...Manziel on his first pass...man he gripped that ball so tight it just popped out like a zit. Our Run O...

The Ugly...Steelers around their 10 - they amass Minus 2 yards of offense...but have a first and goal to go

I need a couple of days before I watch again to give the play by play I promised of Erving... Smh

While I watch the guy I was begging for us to pick up Shaq Mason start at LG for the Pats...and looks awesome...smh The other OL I wanted was La'el Collins he starts at LG with the Cowboys.

jmho just had to vent a bit...

I'd be interested in reading what you have to say about this when you get around to it.

Thanks in advance.

Spoiler alert... he's on his ass way too much.

The reverse pancake may quickly become a stat.

About Irving...It was his first start. It's not like he was all alone in making mistakes up front. Plus the Steelers defense did a good job in their game plan and ganged up on him knowing this.

If you guys couldn't see we where going to have these issues with the oline this year, you really don't know too much about the oline.

I'm sorry I have to disagree, how are the Steelers ganging up on Erving when it was Cameron Hayward lining up directly over top of him and throwing him right on his ass or getting beat one on one and holding, what did he have 3 holding calls yesterday? He looked awful, dude can play any position on the OL he just can't play any of them well. He's a 1st round backup OL.

There was one sack we gave up where Mack let his man go by, and Erbing wasn't ready for it. I assumed Mack was SUPPOSED to give up his man to the LG.

Quarterback has not been the issue with this team this year. Both McCown and Manziel have been better than expected.

With that being the case; the Browns are so bad in so many areas that any improvement would look like a miracle.

Team speed overall is very poor. Tackling is poor.

Ben Roethlisberger could beat the Browns on crutches or maybe even a wheelchair.

Here was a one leg player in obvious pass situations "allowed" to just stand there and throw deep patterns downfield.

There were so many different things that I saw wrong that I don't even want to get into it.

Can't say much more than what has already been said.

Haslam over these next two weeks will most likely make his decisions. Though I doubt that anything will be done until seasons end. There really is no one on the staff that could "act" as HC. The GM position at this point in the season is not critical.

Haslam in my opinion needs to be planning and beginning to implement changes. He should throw every resource he can muster into finding a qualified GM.

The Browns have a long hard road ahead. It will not be much fun for anyone. Losing puts the edge on all involved.

This not a simple fix. This is a project.

First start and he's a career backup or a bust, gotcha.

I call it welcome to the NFL rook.

I love how many of you guys want to pile on a rookie in his first start but ignore the veterans including Thomas and Mack who broke down as well and haven't been playing up to veteran levels in most games this year..

I agree. If you ask me Mack is playing way below his own level IMO

Via Twitter, Moats apologized to Manziel for the facemask.. Manziel accepted the apology as part of the game..



Not everybody in Pittsburgh is James Harrison.. you can play hard and not be a total deuche.

It's getting much harder for me to bother posting these days. My heart simply isn't in it. But here goes......

Good;

Manziel for his limited starting experience looked pretty good. IMO if they don't start him the rest of the year, we have a problem in the coaching staff.

Kirksey looked good yesterday. Orchard seems to be improving in coverage but not so much in the pass rush.

Bad;

Lack of pass rush, as per usual.

OL looked unmotivated and porous. While it's true that Erving is a rookie, his technique, leverage and general performance looked incredibly poor.

Ugly

The talent level being put on the field. Squarely on the shoulders of the GM.

The undisciplined players that cost us penalties at critical times in the game. The poor D scheme that shows zero signs of being productive. A talented OL that are playing well behind their ability.

These issues are on the part of the coaching staff.

Conclusion

Not only do we lack talent due to Farmer being hired in a role which he clearly can not function, but we also have a coaching staff that is not capable of instilling discipline or installing schemes that work. Nor are they capable of seeing this and making the needed corrections.

It's a dysfunctional mess at all levels.

Joe Thomas had the only QB sack for the Browns yesterday, enough said.

And if you think a LG getting pancaked repeatedly is ok since it was his first start then neither do you.

didn't he literally HAVE THE SACK as Manziel tripped over the body of Joe Thomas as he got tangled up and fell? almost laughed...give me 12 more hours and I can be my normal - Black Knight self.
jmho

And sorry I mentioned about Erving and giving a Coaches look/grade on him - didn't mean to open the door of criticism. Honestly I wasn't expecting much. Cause almost all of his Reps this year was LT, RT, RG and Center...I think this week were his first at LG.

Inside hard to tell who what and where.

Fouts said he thought JT tripped over Erving while he was backpeddling.. so Erving might get half the sack.. but they never showed it again and I was too depressed to worry about rewinding it to find out. JT doesn't end up on his back in the pocket very often.

Never said it was ok but thanks for putting those words in my mouth.

BTW Dubia... Where were you when I pointed out more than a few times during the off season and before the draft that it was going to be a very long season for us if we didn't add one or two studs up front on the oline and was told by more than a few respected posters here claiming all this knowledge and such that the oline would be ok?

What you look for is basic technique and leverage if nothing else. It simply wasn't there.

Bro, I owe you an apology for my smart-ass remark. I'm so dang disappointed and heartbroken by the way this team is playing with no easy fix in sight that I've become cranky for a couple of days after a game.

I doubt anyone missed me but even though I read the board every day I've rarely posted at all this season. This past week I've decided to rise above my apathy and post more. Stupid ass comments seem to be the result of trying too hard to give a crap.

Sorry bro.

On your take on the OL during the off season you were right on as we had no depth and all of us saw the result of that.

Yeah pile on the rook while the entire oline has no chemistry and broke down completely. That's on coaching and veteran leadership IMO.

No worries bro I'm good. Thanks.

I know right! it's disgusting how this team can't play together and get a chemistry going. Just disgusting!

At the same time though I can see being totally overwhelmed. It's not like we were playing another 2-win team. It was the freaking Steelers, intimidating enough for a rookie, and he was playing a position he'd never played since he's been here. (Amazingly he got reps at all the other positions).

It's very tiring to continually read how we should expect to get pushed around by good teams or because we are young or because we have injuries...

The Patriots lost their LT, they lost their C, they lost their LG, they lost their back up LT, they have started 3 rookies on the OL at times this year (all at the same time)... and they are the most prolific offense in the NFL... Brady has been sacked 16 times compared to 36 Browns sacks and our OL has been in tact most of the year, is loaded with veterans and has 2 pro-bowl "anchors" to it...

I heard the announcer blame Mack, but Mack was engaged w/another defender. It was Erving's man.

I know OL and I think you are dead wrong about the OL.

I think JM had a good game, but he does hold the ball way, way too long. He gets sacked and all the geniuses act like it's all the line's fault.

It's not!

He did hold the ball a bit long, but I'll take a few sacks if he is actually learning to go through the progressions and not instinctively take off at the first sign of pressure. He can get better at that.
Last season was lost. Consider him a 22-year-old rookie. Most of us would be pretty happy to have a kid who could throw for nearly 400 yards, complete 75% and look in control. For the season, his QBR is around 85.
I am not saying we don't need to draft a QB. But I AM saying we might not need to!

I didn't post that to knock Johnny. I posted it to defend the OL. Erving was terrible, but overall, the OL gave JM time to throw.

I think people are also forgetting that we always abandon the run. What do you think happens to most teams when they are trailing by two scores or more and they refuse to run the ball? It's amazing there were not a ton of sacks yesterday.

I would be interested to see one of those reports regarding how our OL played yesterday. I bet that other than Erving, most did a good job.

Oh, I know you weren't knocking Johnny, Vers. You've been clear-eyed and fair to him. Holding onto the ball a little too long was really about the only thing he did do wrong. I was just looking past that for a silver lining.

The running thing has got to be all scheme. Last year, with worse running backs (Crowell as a rookie and West vs. Crowell now and Johnson, plus a fullback), we ran relatively well. It can't be that our OL is worse -m it's healthy, deeper and more experienced. We do abandon it too soon, but we also junked that zone blocking scheme, which I don't pretend to understand, but just know that Shanahans always run successfully.

To be fair to our OL, McCown and Manziel hold the ball to long but that is their only excuse for anything. Bitonio deserved to be in the probowl last year and he has been as bad as Irving was yesterday. Mack and Thomas have not been close to their level.

You know what. I changed this post because I don't want to get into it with you. I love how you guys blow your own horns around here..Bla Bla Bla ..

In case you missed it, I didn't assign blame. I simply stated what I saw on the field. There could be a number of reasons for that. Was he drafted too high? Not coached properly? As ddub suggested, was he simply overwhelmed?

Unfortunately I don't have the answer to those questions. No matter where the blame belongs, that's what was displayed on the field.

So please stop with trying to believe you know my motives.

Sorry Pit, I apologize.

That is Ver's excuse for everything. He knows the oline, they're ok.

It's cool. I think most all Browns fans are a little stressed right now.

This is a statement you made earlier in the thread.



Now your little feelings are hurt because I responded to that aggressive and demeaning statement? Grab a tissue.

Do you see any irony at all in this statement of yours? If you don't, you're beyond help. Seriously.

well i will do a good one that i have not saw. it was nice to see a team bite on the play action so hard every time we did it.

Flattering yourself, and blowing your own horn again I see.

So if I'm dead wrong about the oline issues, what's the problem with the Oline unit them Oh Great Karnac?
.

Look, you made a statement about people not knowing OL. I did not insult you in my first response. I said I do know OL. That isn't bragging. It's a fact. I got my start in coaching by being the OL coach.

I pointed out that both McCown and Manziel occasionally hold the ball too long. There are stats that back that up. Again, it is not an opinion or tooting my own horn. It's a fact.

You freaked out because I challenged your opinion. Thus, I gave you a taste of your own medicine.

I have already addressed some of the issues w/the OL. I don't think you really wanna hear it, but I will try again.

--Both our qbs do hold the ball too long.

--We have given both qbs quite a bit of time to throw the ball on most plays.

--Our guys are more finesse blockers rather than power blockers. We ran more ZBS last year under Shanny. While Flip still runs some of that, he relies on more power blocking, where are guys don't do as well, especially in run blocking.

--Erving is weak. Hopefully, Bittonio will be back next week.

Once again, I would like to see the statistical grades that some of these sites do on OL play. I bet that the grades [other than Erving] were probably pretty high for the rest of our linemen. Does anyone have that information?

ProFootballFocus from the Pittsburgh game...

Cleveland Browns
– Although Johnny Manziel (+3.3) was sacked six times according to the official gamebook, Cleveland’s offensive line actually played really well and limited the pass rush of the Steelers’ defensive line. Of the six sacks, only one was really due to poor offensive line play—when Cameron Erving let Stephon Tuitt go by him. As a matter of fact, the only player on the Browns’ offensive line who graded out below +1.0 was Erving (-2.0), who started the first game of his NFL career. Consequently, Browns fans do not have to panic about the state of their offensive line, but rather about the performance of the other players who take part in avoiding sacks.

– Despite his fumble and interception, Johnny Manziel played the best game of his career. The fact that Manziel attempted 13 passes outside the right numbers compared to nine outside the left numbers shows the amount of times Cleveland rolled him out of the pocket, providing him easier reads; however, he was able to take advantage of the situation and find open receivers constantly. While Manziel still held onto the ball too long and struggled a bit under pressure, where he graded out at -0.2 compared to +2.4 from a clean pocket, he made a significant step forward in this game.

– While the final score would suggest that Cleveland did not play really well, the Browns did have some solid performances on the defense. Rookie Nate Orchard earned the highest grade (+2.9), despite being on the field for only 52.2 percent of Cleveland’s defensive snaps. Orchard did not record a single pressure while rushing the passer, however, he did bat down one of Ben Roethlisberger’s passes on a third down. He was solid in coverage, as well, as he allowed only one reception for two yards. His best work came in defending the run where he finished with two run stops on 17 run snaps that led to a run stop percentage of 11.8 percent, which was third most among 3-4 outside linebackers in the NFL in Week 10. Balanced performances like this will certainly earn more playing time for the former Utah Ute.

Top performers:

QB Johnny Manziel (+3.3)
OLB Nate Orchard (+2.9)
LT Joe Thomas (+2.9)
RT Mitchell Schwartz (+2.4)
ILB Craig Robertson (+2.4)

For the life of me i don't see how a team can run the ball 11 times for -2 yards, give up 6 sacks, and have everybody but one on the OL grade out positive.

Fair enough.

I didn't freak out. Erving was weak and undisciplined, I agree. A rookie in his first start. One start and you want to blow your own horn to justify you were right that Farmer made a mistake and a bad pick.

The entire offensive line hasn't played up to their usual standards. Actually they haven't been playing up to standards since last year when Mack went down. Finesse IMO would mean their disciplined and working with good chemistry. Their not.

Now, every QB will hold on too long at times waiting for the play to develop. It happens from time to time. But McCown and JM aren't looking like Weeden in that regard. And it's not the reason the oline is undisciplined looking bad.

The discipline, chemistry, penalties and bench depth of the oline is the reason I've made my previous statements.

It was obvious to me they were going to have these issues before the season started. So the reality for me is, I was correct. *Beep Beep*

Thanks ddub. That's the way I saw it, too. There were so many times when JM had all day to survey the field. I think that perhaps our receivers aren't getting open.

Gotta give steve some credit for giving props to Orchard.

I think Manziel is still learning to process the information quickly enough and trust his routes. He spent years in a college system where the guy was already open when you saw him and released the ball.. he's going to have to learn to throw before the guy breaks open...

He's showed improvement in that last week but still has a ways to go... .

FB and TE or RB and TE terrible blocking.

I agree. Again, I am not saying that to knock JM. I am just defending the OL. They are not playing as bad as people are saying.

That is another good point. Crow is pretty darn good at picking up the blitz, but everyone else really struggles w/blocking. Dray is our best blocking TE, but he hasn't done squat in the passing game this year, thus his snaps are limited.

I truly believe that Crow plays more than Duke because he is much more dependable pass blocker.

What has Pettine done to earn another year? Name ONE thing he's GOOD at.... just one man.

He preached all off season about stopping the run and the result is last in the league. If I thought for a minute this guy could coach I'd agree to let him stick another year. But he hasn't shown me spit. Not ONE thing he's done has impressed me. He's supposed to be some defensive guru, but this defense is... well it's unacceptable. For this defense alone, Pettine should have been fired over the bye. THAT is how bad it is.