Satanic Temple cites religious beliefs as immunity from Supreme Court abortion ruling on fetal remains

The Satanic Temple said it would challenge a Supreme Court ruling from Tuesday that upheld part of an Indiana law requiring the burial or cremation of fetal remains.

The group is citing religious freedom in declaring immunity from the law, according to the Arkansas Times.

“One of The Satanic Temple’s fundamental tenets is the inviolability of one’s body,” the international organization said in a statement.

The Satanic Temple (TST) said “non-viable fetal tissue is part of the woman who carries it,” according to its statement to the news outlet.

“State impositions of ceremonial requirements dictating its disposal, barring any plausible medical or sanitary concerns, is a violation of TST’s Free Exercise allowing Satanists to contextualize the termination of a pregnancy on their own terms, with deference to their own religious beliefs,” the group added.

The organization, which does not worship or believe in the Satan from the Bible, is known for its vocal advocacy for separation between church and state.

“To be clear, members of The Satanic Temple will not be made to pay for these punitive, superfluous, and insulting burials. We claim exemption on religious liberty grounds, and we will almost certainly prevail in the courts if we are forced to fight," the group's spokesperson Lucien Greaves told the Arkansas Times.

A member of the Satanic Temple also challenged, on the grounds of religious freedom, a Missouri law that says women must wait three days when seeking an abortion, according to The Associated Press.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-bat...m-supreme-court

If you bury fetal remains, does it require a coffin?

Trumpians are going after abortion this term, trying to overturn Roe v. Wade. Next term they will solve the incell problem by making women property that can be assigned to incells for their right to have sex.

Abortion is such a tragedy.

The Devil is the father of lies.

It is a shame what these people are doing with the concept of religious freedom.

Abortion battle? This is a battle of unrighteousness vs righteousness, Abortion is just a side issue.

Yep ...it’s always been about power and control over a women’s body. Just listening to all these pro birth’rs here proves that point to me.

Not for me it hasn't. I don't care what a woman does with her body. It's what she does with the babies body that I don't agree with.

If she wants to drink a fifth of whisky every day go right ahead.
If she wants to eat so much that she balloons up to 500 pounds go ahead.
If she wants to go to college or drop out of High School, go ahead.
If she wants to get pregnant, go ahead.
If she wants to become President of the United States, go ahead.
If she wants to stay single, marry a man, or another woman, go ahead.
If she wants to get plastic surgery once, twice, or 100 times, go ahead.
If she wants to give the baby up for adoption, go ahead.

If she wants to kill the baby, Nope no way I will ever agree.

Missing the point, deliberately me thinks. The point raised in the post was the double standard regarding the fertility clinics full of embryos. Each of which by your own definintion is a baby.

Would I be correct in thinking you believe these should all be outlawed due to the fantastically high proportion of "babies" that die and aren't given optimal chance to live?

How am I missing the point? This thread is a continuation of the original one. Did oldcold's post mention fertility clinics? Did PerfectSpiral (who I replied to) mention fertility clinics? NO He said


I was pointing out that I am not against woman nor am I trying to tell them what to do with THEIR bodies. Only what they can not do with the babies bodies. You know just those who are all for abortion tell them that they can't take a 3 day old baby and rips it's arms and legs off, then suck it's brain out and throw it in the trash.

“Only what they can not do with the babies bodies. You know just those who are all for abortion tell them that they can't take a 3 day old baby and rips it's arms and legs off, then suck it's brain out and throw it in the trash.”

Hyperbole much?
Fertility clinics can thaw ‘babies’ and trash them legally. A woman should have the right to do the same with a similar embryo. Anything else is about controlling a woman. Period.

Louisiana's governor, a Democrat, signs 'heartbeat' abortion bill into law

Louisiana's Democratic Gov. John Bel Edwards broke from his party's ideology Thursday and signed a bill that would prohibit women from having an abortion once a baby's heartbeat is detected, in almost all cases.

Edwards urged his Democratic colleagues to do so as well, tweeting a statement on Wednesday saying "I call on the overwhelming bipartisan majority of legislators who voted for it to join me in continuing to build a better Louisiana that cares for the least among us and provides more opportunity for everyone."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/louisia...n-bill-into-law


Well I guess there are still some Democrats in this Country who don't think it necessary to kill in order to be successful in life.

It's only an embryo for a few hours in her body, and has a heart beat in a few weeks.

My stance has always been the same. There are creams, pills, implants, shots, iuds, good old comdoms, and getting fixed. I won't even include abstinence in my list. Let's face it, putting on a condom is way easier than changing diapers or saving for college. I don't even have a problem with plan b, although I'm sure we'll find out it's dangerous some day. All of thsee are far easier, both mentally and physically, than an abortion. Wouldn't it be far better to prevent a pregnancy than end one?

I believe abortions should be unrestricted up to the second trimester.

If the school is on trimesters.

Not a single bit of hyperbole at all. MORE OF YOUR DENILE.
Do they take babies in utro and rip of their arms and legs and suck their brains out before they come out of the womb? Yes or NO???

There was an interview of John Hickenlooper I heard yesterday. In Colorado they made IUD’s low cost. The number of pregnancy’s and abortions by teens went down by 64 percent...

I don’t like abortion, but the evidence is that prevention is a better alternative.

Ultimately the state indicated that the program saved money as low income children’s were not added to public sponsored programs.

I’m not an advocate for late term. Never claimed to be. But a 6 or 8 week abortion ban is absurd. It’s a barely formed fetus with an electrical pulse and no real circulatory system. It’s not a heart. I’ve posted scientific articles to that medical fact.

Erik. I agree. It’s easy to protect yourself. I’m all for pushing such measures into the public forum. I’m a big believer in vasectomies. I’ve half joked about making them mandatory for all 14 year old boys. I think it’s ridiculous that an 18 guy can’t get one as most doctors won’t allow it for anyone that age. You can buy cigarettes, kill foreigners in the military, vote, but you can’t make that choice. Looking back I wish I had done it in my college years.
I was generally pretty smart with my intimate contacts but I’ve had condoms break. I know girls that got preggers while on the pill. Crap happens. When it does I want the choice to not have to pay for that ‘crap’ for the rest of my life. It’s no longer anything I have to worry about personally. I just want others to have that choice.

Yes, as an adult you can go of to war, but smokes, and other things. One should also be responsible enough to not start a pregnancy they don't want.

I'm a father of 6, and they were all accidents. The last one was planned, but I swear my wife got pregnant the day after she stopped taking birth control. "We'll see what happens" my butt. We didn't even drink off the same glass without a condom. We're both fixed and still worry about it. Never once did we consider an abortion, not even when we thought the pregnancy would kill her. That life inside her was half me, half her, and innocent. Unlike some in here, I know for a fact they have a personality before the end of the first trimester. A personality means they are more than the "clump of cells" that pp would have you believe.

If you dont want a baby, please plan ahead. Don't buy cheap condoms. Don't use lambskin, as they don't work. Antibiotics counteract birth control. And don't destroy a life because you're lazy.

Glad you chose to have 6 kids. Others would think it a nightmare. It should be the choice of those involved. No one else’s. Personally I’ve never wanted kids. If I had accidentally knocked up one of my girlfriends, or (ex)wife, over the years I would have wanted us to have had the option. I wouldn't have wanted to have to ask your permission.
It’s that simple.

6 accidents?!?!? My you're a slow learner aren't ya? Bless your heart.

Well Hillary is a mass murder.

How the hell does a woman plan, not to raped or sexually assaulted?

But it's still a baby.

It’s a zygote that looks like it could be a chicken or a human or an alligator. It’s a clump of forming cells.
... most importantly THEY DON’T BELONG TO YOU. So. Just stay out of the owners business.

But it's a human... and pro-choice people KNOW that it's a human, so stop making silly adjunct arguments that don't make any sense.

I absolutely KNOW that pro-choice people believe it's a human for 2 reasons..

1. They constantly tout their love of science. And since no zygote formed between two humans has ever, in the history of science, turned out to be a chicken or an alligator, these science loving folks have no real choice but admit it is the early stages of a human.

2. They have passed all kinds of wildlife laws that tell me they know. If I go disrupt a sea turtle egg that was laid 20 minutes ago and is still 2 months away from hatching, which has zero characteristics of an actual sea turtle, I can face $100K fine and years in jail... because they know that one day, that will be a sea turtle, not a racoon or a seagull, they know it will be a sea turtle, even from the first minute it's dropped on the beach.


This is your real argument, everything else is window dressing.

A fetus is a human the same way an acorn is a tree. Which is maybe one day, but not today.

Hell I know grown men that look more like hairy gorilla's than men. Does that mean they are not men. I even get called a Knuckle dragger around here all the time

All great except the embryos in fertility clinics aren’t considered in the same way... in your eyes they’re still ‘humans’ yet they can be thawed and trashed without any ramifications. So again. This is not about the sanctity of human life. This is about controlling a body that isn’t yours.

Well, kind of... but if a human fetus makes it to 6 weeks, which is about when most women find out they are pregnant, it has a 90% chance of making it to term..

Every decent size oak tree can drop 10,000 acorns each year, each one has less than a .5% chance of germination...

May the odds be ever in your favor.

More like me and my wife put rabbits to shame. 2 to 3 times a day set you up for a big family.

1 and 2 were youthful exuberance. 3 was a, "we'll be careful" no condom. 4 was a discovery that antibiotics lower the effacacy of the pill. 5 was a drunken, "no you don't need one" honeymoon thing. 6 was a "we want one more, so we'll see what happens" next day thing. As I said, we're both fertile as hell.

All the power to you. Sounds like a slice of hell to me. LOL.
I like the practice... just not the results. Snip snip.

My nephew has made a complete wreck of his life because of his incredible fertility. It’s sad. Too many kids. Not enough education. Now he lives s life of stress and debt. It breaks my heart. I had so many ‘wrap the whopper’ conversations... yet 6 kids... and no future.

Me, next time I take a hike through the woods

I start supporting anti abortion policies when conservatives support a bill that has every man who commits adultery getting castrated as punishment.

Every conservative woman might agree with you.

For so many years I've been anti abortion, pro-life, I still think I'm pro life, but, I understand now why God permited it to be legal mostly my entire life.

I didn't understand, folks would tell me, " no, abortion has to be legal because people would have coat hangers," but

in my own thoughts, I'd still not get it, I'd be like, ... "How can all these half of all people be supporting murder, or ending of a life, how can they be on that side, it SURELY cant be right."

now, sombody'll try and tell me, maybe after a hundred times of convincing, I finaly got convinced?, No, no, not so much, it was a line in a movie that made me think about it all again.

--- I spent my whole life with legal abortion, I was born around that year, somewhere around that year, not sure when Roe V Wade decision was,

an- maybe I was just foolin myself, because as soon as they started to outlaw it some places with some laws that had real "teeth" to them, I suddenly started to think, "this is freaking crazy, abortion might be illegal" and I'm not even going to be faced too much with this situation personally, I'll pull away from a gasoline gallon priced 50 cents;

but Me, even Me was seeing these new laws (mid 2000's) and thinking, "this is crazy , aboritons got to be legal, it's always been legal, sure I always voted for pro-life each and every time but I didn't think these guys were serious, surely they can't be seriously going to make it impossible to get an abortion.

over my life, I've seen thosands of marchers, women mostly, carrying signs, and shouting, pro-choice crowd, impassioned, frightened, so devoted, and

I thinks to myself, surely, for many years, (what the heck do all these want to support murder, ending a human life with so much gusto, what's the deal are they nuts?) but it hits me

They aren't crying and shouting because they like seeing baby doll parts videos, I mean, not for 30 years of watching this, surely I buy that abortion is such a messed up situation, they are somehow fighting against coat hanger procedures,

The line from the movie "Argo" is
" X-fils are like abortions, you don't want or want to need one, but when you do, you want a professional. "

Best I can make out how it's said,

Pro lifers don't hate women! I never hated a woman in 30 years of Pro life enthusiasm, even would join their cause, as a pro lifer, I can't, no one can, see how anybody is on the side that ends a pure, precious, innocent human baby life

WE CAN'T HAVE BABY PARTS IN TRASH CAN VIDEOS!

nobody likes that, except callous dr. makes a living doing many a day, (I don't want that)

But I don't think these thousands of marching, frightened, pro choice ladies over 30 years have been enthusiastic about baby parts videos, or drs that do several assembly line abortions in a single day,

I gather they realize that coat hanger abortions cause dead women and a situation nobody want to be in.

nobody likes that.

Me? Well, I'll tell myself, I want to be on the side of life, got to save life at any possible point, because God wants respect for human life, and , that includes the respect for the innocent that gets taken, why I support capital punishment to end the fact that there'd be anybody that'd do things like murder and rape people who were minding their own business, (come back to that later)

but then, I find out how I felt about them actually starting to make laws to outlaw abortion, laws that had teeth, in the 2000's like I said above, and realize maybe I don't know myself as well as I thought.

So I'm left with, the dual sided coin of terrible tragedy in the abortion debate, on one side,

We cant have coat hanger, back alley abortions, and dead young women in the prime of their life, because it's so awful to " not have access" to a professional abortion.

and the other side,
We can't continue to have baby parts in trash can videos, and Dr's that make their whole practice of assembly line, several a day, wham bam, a baby's dead, because we support a human lif--

For God's sakes, I wouldn't give an abortition to a DOG! not even a neighbors DOG! and we're talking about a HUMAN LIFE!

edit: I didn't always understood the one side of the coin, I didn't always understand the other.

The line from the movie that changed my mind.

Ex-fils are like abortions, you don't want or want a need one, but when you do, you want a professional.

My guess, a new cottage industry is born. Much like as cannabis laws were being circumnavigated by doctors writing medical necessity diagnosis’s for anyone that came in complaining of ‘back pain’. I see doctors writing ‘medical need’ abortion orders more liberally.

I myself was anti-abortion. One time about 12 years ago my wife was pregnant with twin embryos. Boy I tell you what, it was my first child and we was estatic. After a couple visits to the OBGN and through ultra sounds it was found out we was going to loose the babies through miscarriage. While he broke the news to us he explained that he would have to perform a DNC ( if I pronounced that correctly). This procedure was as he explained was a way to clean out the insides and make it so we could start new and have better success next time if we tried again. The thing was he gave us a choice to have the miscarriage naturally and perform the DNC or just go ahead and perform the procedure and get it over with painlessly. (Now this is performed in a hospital not some clinic like planned parenthood. Matter of fact the same hospital my son was latter born at.) Well after talking it over we decided to do the latter. We was heart broken but regardless it was the inevitable. Well when we discussed this with our family , things turned ugly with my sister. She preached to us we was doing it wrong and it should be naturally and the Dr. is wrong and so on. ( Do note this , this is the same Dr. that deleivered my nephew / her son and he was great at what he did. and she love him as a Dr. then.) This got so ugly that we had multiple strangers locally and out of state calling my house wanting to discuss our abortion. In our eyes it was not an abortion, it was a miscarrage and still is. This put us and especially my wife through continuous hell. It got so bad my parents got involved and told her (my sister) to back the "F" off of us, and told us we was making the right choice as they gave us their full support. None the less 2 years after the procedure, we was blessed with wonderful son as we tried again.

I'm shareing this story with you as to let many people know that we've became more Pro-choice now. Not because we support killing babies but more for people keeping their noses to theirselves and stay in your lane. I made up with my sister but I will never forgive those that put my wife through the personal hell that they did when we was already grieving a miscarriage.

Dude, sorry about your loss, that had to be an extremely difficult time. My heartfelt condolences to you and your family.

The GOP....Pot may kill living brain cells. Hence....blazing a joint is murder.

I had a similar experience with my 6th kid. The doctor told us that it was a nonviable pregnancy and we should get a dnc done. I resisted and had my wife get new blood tests from our family doctor that same day. Our family doctor put a rush order on the tests, which he did on a Friday, and called us on Sunday to tell us my wife was pregnant, and not to get the dnc.

We went back to the ob, where I sort of threatened them if they didn't do an ultrasound. I'll never forget the look on that doctors face when he thought he heard a heartbeat, and took us to another room with a larger monitor. We could see fingers, toes, arms, legs, and that he was a boy. Our nonviable pregnancy is now 19 years old, and is a great kid.

Your choice. Right to choose. Taking that away is just a form of controlling women to your will.

Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

From my understanding God didn't bless you with a vagina. So I don't think you'll ever have to make the decision whether to have an abortion. Neither do any of these other men telling women what to do on the topic.

Pfft... 'God' blessed me with many vaginas in the day and I never had to decide either.

I just wonder how many men would be comfortable with having their gender be as equally responsible.

Let's say for example, any man that falls behind in his child support, no matter the circumstances, be immediately castrated.

I mean you may have lost your job for no fault of your own, much like a woman who is raped or a victim of incest, but you are not living up to your responsibility and burdening society by having to support your child.

Or are only women to be subject to having the responsibility here?

Sadly, we know the answer.

Blood Thirst. It is a terrible thing!

Finally! Was just hoping Westboro Church would chime in to resolve how we should dress the handmaidens! smh

Why don't more people stand up for the mans right to choose? It's his child just as much at it is the mothers, yet if he wants to raise the child he is forced to sit by and watch his child be murdered. I also have no problem with making men be responsible for the children they are responsible for even if they don't want to.

Not his body. If true love is there and there is a relationship, then he should be involved in the decision. But the final say should always be the female.

Yeah let’s give those rapists their rights to the fetus now? Men controlling woman again. Pfft

You know what, on second thought, it’s now possible to transfer the fetus to the father’s body to be carried to term. And the civil courts can force a rapist to have this procedure done as well. Problem solved. Ok men, who can we control next?

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/44...ortion-coverage

Thought this was very good ... I've seen very little of Gillibrand but she seems intelligent and articulate.

"The debate over whether or not women should have reproductive freedom has turned into a red herring debate," she said. "And what happens on Fox News is relevant because they talked about infanticide for 6.5 hours before President Trump's State of the Union, they mentioned in 35 times. That's not what the debate of what access to care is about in this country. It doesn't happen, it's illegal, it's not a fact. And I believe all of us have a responsibility to talk about facts."

She is right - infanticide is the bright shiny light that those on one side are trying to distract with. Same old methodology.

Thanks...They tried so hard to stop her from saying that. More proof FOX news doesn’t really care about talking about real news and facts. Only about protecting their orange orb in the WH

The baby she kills is not HER body either.

There is a word for women controlling men>






Marriage

Yeah, the funniest thing about the Alabama abortion ban is that they lead all the states in infant mortality. 99% of the pro birth movement doesn't even foster kids nor adopt American children. Their movement is entirely about policing people.

We’ve gone over this GM. It not a baby. It’s an embryo or fetus.

First off. I’ve never met a guy that didn’t support the abortion their partner chose.

Secondly. Why would you want to force a guy, or a woman, to raise a child they didn’t want? I find that crueler to the child than aborting a fetus.

To be fair there are undoubtedly some instances when the father would choose to have the baby rather than an abortion - and the mother would choose otherwise.

However that is a TINY % of the overall ... why would we get distracted with that. Lets focus on the 95%+ ....

As to someone else's comment above - I'd feel much more comfortable and feel like the "other side" of the debate was genuinely caring about humanity and humankind if they put as much effort into caring for, supporting, funding the very young and the very poor that end up as (quite probably) unsuitable parents .... doing something for real babies that are already in the world and - based on statistics - likely destined for a life of hardship, poverty, under achievement and crime .... and in all likelihood, destined to recreate the problem of unwanted pregnancy later in their lives.

And maybe there are organizations that do both - but what I see mostly is a zealous intent to prevent others choosing abortion .... and then little to no interest in what happens to the children you then force into the world with the adoption of anti-abortion legislation.

Oh, it's worse than that.......

How can US rapist win joint custody of victim's child?

Many are incredulous that Christopher Mirasolo, 27, could be granted parental rights after a DNA test established his paternity.

The victim's lawyer said the case was set in motion after her client received child support from the state.

The case is thought to be the first of its kind in Michigan and maybe the US.

Attorney Rebecca Kiessling filed objections on Friday after Judge Gregory Ross ruled that Mirasolo had parental rights to the boy, who is now eight years old, reports the Detroit News.

Judge Ross also provided Mirasolo with the victim's home address.

The woman, who now lives in Florida, has been told to move back to Michigan.

Judge Ross also ordered Mirasolo's name to be added to the birth certificate without the mother's consent, her attorney added.
What's the case's background?

A 21-year-old woman told police Mirasolo forcibly raped her while holding her captive when she was 12 in September 2008.

The victim's ordeal began when she, her 13-year-old sister and a friend sneaked out of their house to meet an older boy and his friend, Mirasolo, who was 18 at the time.

Mirasolo held them captive for two days before releasing the older sister in a park.

He was arrested a month later when the woman became pregnant, Ms Kiessling added.

The charge is a first-degree felony in Michigan, but Mirasolo instead received a plea deal from the Sanilac County Prosecutor's Office for attempted third-degree criminal sexual conduct.

He was sentenced to one year in county jail, but only served six-and-a-half months before he was released early to care for his sick mother.

In 2010, he sexually assaulted another victim between the ages of 13 and 15 and was jailed for four years, according to the Michigan Department of Corrections.

Mirasolo was released in March 2012 and is a registered sex offender.

His supervision conditions include having a "responsible adult" present if he is with a minor.
How could this happen?

According to Ms Kiessling and the victim, the case was prompted after the mother sought child support.

Mirasolo's attorney, Barbara Yockey, told the Detroit Free Press that her client "never initiated" the custody case.

She said it was "routinely done by the prosecutor's office when a party makes application for state assistance".

"Chris was notified of the paternity matter and an order of filiation was issued last month by the court saying he had joint legal custody and reasonable visitation privileges," she said.

Ms Yockey said her client has not suggested he planned to act on his parenting rights and he had no scheduled court appearances.

"I don't know what his plans or intentions might be regarding any future relationship with the child," she said.

Ms Kiessling said the case violates the Rape Survivor Child Custody Act, which allows courts to dismiss the parental rights of convicted rapists over a child conceived as a result of rape.
What is the Rape Survivor Child Custody Act?

The law, championed by the Obama administration in 2015, gave states access to more funding for victims of sexual assault if they allowed courts to terminate the parental rights of an individual found to have committed rape against another person that resulted in the conception of a child.

About 5% of rape victims ages 12 to 45 become pregnant as a result of rape, according to the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology. A version of the law exists in 43 states and the District of Columbia, but the measures vary from state to state.

In 20 states and the District of Columbia, a rape conviction is required before termination of parental rights is allowed.

Critics argue this leaves victims vulnerable in cases that are not prosecuted.

Seven states have no laws barring rapists from asserting their parental rights over a child.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41556542

No, it's really not.

That whole decision was rescinded a week later because, whether it was a mix-up or by some legal design, the judge was never given the information that the baby was the result of rape..

People were fired over the result of the mix-up.

There are still seven states in our nation that do not have laws that prevent a rapist parental rights. Including yes, Alabama.

Well then lets give the woman the choice of just how much money she wants from the man if she keeps the baby. 5,000. 10,000 100,000 per month What sounds fair to you?

Why yes we have I call it a baby, you call it something else. Yet the truth is it is a HUMAN LIFE that is being snuffed out, Just the same as a person ripping apart a 1 week old baby. The difference is that you want convenience while I want human life to survive.

A one week old baby can live outside the womb.

Why is a turtle egg afforded all of the rights and protections of an adult turtle but a fetus/embryo is not afforded all of the rights and protections of a human being?

Two parts. Turtles are a protected species because our species can’t stop destroying their populations without said protections. Humans have over run this planet like a swarm of locusts on a crop. One less person is welcome.

Two. Let’s get back to the fertility clinics. Those embryos aren’t protected. Why?

But.. science.. if an egg is considered the species it will ultimately become, why isn't an embryo. You can ramble all day why sea turtles should be protected but I'm not going to argue with you... just want to understand the hypocrisy in the science.

And now your argument in favor of abortion is overpopulation? this gets more orwellian by the moment.


They should be.

BULLCRAP It can't. Without people taking care of he/she they will die. They can't feed themselves, they can't even get a drink for themselves. They would die within a matter of days. Yet if the mother/father/ or other person does not feed them, or make sure they drink they would die. Then they would be charged with murder.

They can breathe on their own. Support their own life through breathing. Sure they need care, but anything which can not breath can not live.

Because some folks want convience over what is right. It's just that plain and simple in almost 95 percent if the cases.

They need the same care one freaking day before they leave the womb as they do one day after they leave it. It's so simple even a freaking caveman could understand it.

As to the eggs... if a turtle asked for an abortion I’d grant it. #equality

As to the fertility clinic eggs...
But they’re not protected. So it’s not about the life of Alabama’s children it’s about controlling the women of Alabama.

It’s simple to me. I don’t want to live on this planet with a bunch of unwanted children being raised around me, likely poorly, likely performing poorly in school, likely living in abusive (mental, psychological, or physical) situations by their resentful parents, likely leading to continuing the cycle once they’re adults.
This does not sound like a great society to me. Maybe it does to you. Maybe you an GM can start a huge foster house to raise the unwanted. I have a friend that fosters. The horror stories she tells are eye opening. She has wings waiting in heaven. The few kids she gets to effect is only a small fraction of those that need such help. Yet? Let’s add to it. Let’s add a bunch more unwanted kids to the world. Utopia awaits.

So a three month fetus who can not sustain their own life is the same as a newborn that can by breathing. I'm just trying to get this straight here. You seem to indicate something that can not sustain its own life by breathing on its own is the exact same thing as something that can.

So your saying it's a inconvience to you so just kill them.

I am saying folks who keep saying the (as they call it fetus/clump of cells/embryo} can't survive outside of the mother is not a baby. Yet when you point out that not a single damn one of us could survive outside of the womb without help . They all shut the hell up and run away.

You bring up a point I've often tried to discuss with people. Being pro life means from birth to the grave. That's a persons life. Pro birth on the other hand means you only seem to care about them being born. After that you take a total hands off approach. One is pro life and one is pro birth. There's a difference.

I won't try to speak for GM but I believe he is pro human all the way. From beginning to end. From my understanding he's extremely conflicted because many of his principals to not lean in the republican direction. But the life of what he deems a human being reigns supreme to him.

I'm actually against abortion myself on a personal level. But God didn't give men vagina's. As such I have no intention of helping legislate or support trying to control a woman's vagina. I've seen too many children grow up in poverty, abused, neglected and surrounded by drugs. Hungry, no housing and living a life destitute.

If we actually lived in a world where children were protected and cared for I may feel exactly that way GM does about the topic. But alas we don't.

It’s an inconvenience to society as a whole. It’s inhumane to the child forced into the situation. We’d take a puppy ignored by its mother away and bottle feed it. Yet when a human parent does similar it’s often hidden from society until the damage is done. Another broken human.
Or we dump the kid into foster homes. They’re always a bastion of safety after all. Do a google search. Here copy and paste this into your browser... foster parents kids cages... . It’s shocking.
But let’s add to the system. Let’s add more and more and more. You know, because compassion.

Well I'm not one of those people.

I fully understand, IMO, that a being that can not breath to sustain its own life is not a baby.

Kind of like when I ask all the pro birthers how many American babies they have adopted... crickets.

Your right brother I care about conception to grave We just disagree about the conception to birth part



You forgot to mention that he also didn't give woman a penis. and without that she wouldn't be pregnant in the first place.

There are 36 couples waiting to adopt a baby vs every woman willing to put her baby up for adoption.

Gee just kill them all rather than let a family who loves them raise them.

And that it's quite possible for a man to conceive hundreds of children a year, while a woman can only have a single birth every ten months or so.

Yet we are targeting the women.

[quote]It’s an inconvenience to society as a whole.[/quote}

LMFAO your admitting that the reason you approve of abortion if for convience.

Nope I am targeting anybody who thinks it's OK to murder babies. Please let me know when you find the first man who aborted a baby.

Without a man there would be no baby. Equal accountability.

If a man denies a child or fails to support a child castration is the answer.

And? This country struggles looking after those already here.
To you adding to the problem is just fine. I’m more pragmatic.

I’m no fan of abortion. I think people need to be careful and responsible. But when that doesn’t occur I’m all for choice. Do I think it should be used as a method of ‘birth control’? No. I’m all for IUDs for free for any woman that has an abortion. Stop the second one before it starts. Hell. I’m all for free IUDs for any woman that wants one. Fee vasectomies for all men over 18 too. Until that happens..
I’m all for choice.

Did I say castrate the woman so she can never again get pregnant? Oh Hell no so why are you saying the same thing about men.?

[quote]I’m no fan of abortion. I think people need to be careful and responsible. But when that doesn’t occur I’m all for choice. Do I think it should be used as a method of ‘birth control’? No. I’m all for IUDs for free for any woman that has an abortion. Stop the second one before it starts. Hell. I’m all for free IUDs for any woman that wants one. Fee vasectomies for all men over 18 too. Until that/quote]

We agree up,too a point. Just remember I love you bro even if we disagree. So many people on both sides of every debate takes things personal and thing we all hate each other. when I feel nothing could be further than the truth. We all love each other we just don't agree on some things

Dude...



...what the Hell, man?

I didn't read this thread because I hate the extremist points of view that is always at the heart of such a debate, but I clicked on it just to read your response because I never viewed you as an extremist.

And......

You are the last person I thought would use an argument about child support in the abortion debate. What does being a deadbeat dad have to do with her right to control her own body? Shame on your GM.

I wish they could give IQ test in the womb and deal with our stupid people problem that way.

Sorry, Dawg- it doesn't work that way.
Darwin laid out the conditions and timeline 160 years ago.

I prefer Natural Selection.
However glacial the pace, it's more honest than Eugenics, which is kinda what you're implying here-

I know you were making light in your post, but I'm also smart enough to know that I ain't smart enough to determine who should and should not be here, knowhatimsayin?

Life is life. You snuff out life then your a killer. Babies are the most innocent and precious things alive. To me you have to be pretty depraved to want to smash their cute skulls in, which they do in abortions past 5 months to make sure they die before being ripped from the womb.

Outside of rape the choice a woman has is the same as a man's. You choose to have sex. That is the choice you made with your body. The baby is innocent and should not be murdered for your mere convenience.

Don't want babies? Then keep your clothes on. Enough with the murder already.

Yet it nearly happened. It’s only a matter of time. Pro birth’rs don’t really care about womens rights and the law on the books. They have an undying need to control the women’s body. It’s been proven over and over. They’ll give a rapist less punishment and protect their freedoms more. Men controlling women once again.

So your 14 year old daughter gets gang raped and becomes pregnant. You make her keep it?

A heroin addict strung out and living on the street gets knocked up by a dope dealer, are you saying that kid is better off born addicted to a mother that won't take care of it than to not be born at all?

Two kids with promising futures mess around one night and she ends up pregnant. Without considerable help they can't raise the child and go to school... They should just sacrifice their future over YOUR biological religious beliefs?

You guys are bordering inquisition level zealotry with this stuff. It's a clump of cells until it's not. The current US abortion laws are fair and if anything need legislation protecting them from you guys.

We regulate abortion for the same reason we regulate beer and cigarettes and soon cannabis: because you can't legislate behavior away.

If you believe you can legislate away abortion you must believe you can legislate away 1st degree murder. If you believe that to be true I need to sell you some land

So, why try new laws to regulate guns?

It appears you don't know the difference in the terms legislate and regulate. Read up on them and come back.

Nice try, but an epic fail. Legislate: make laws. Regulate: to govern or direct according to rule.



Some on here believe they can legislate anti gun laws which would, somehow, in their minds, eliminate shootings.

I think I have that correct.

People that try to regulate guns are missing the boat.

Guns, as the saying goes, don't kill people, people kill people... I get it.

But the truth of the matter is, just about anyone can get a gun.. People with Mental illness is a big problem for me for one thing.

I've said this before,,, I'm not a gun guy.. But I like the idea I can go buy one if I wish to do so.

I'll never understand why anyone needs an Auto or SemiAuto rifle. I doubt anyone can convince me of why.

But then again, I want a car that has 1000 HP... That makes little to no sense as well..

As for abortions, I have an idea.. Why not make the men that father children pay,,, I mean, REALLY pay. If they don't, they must be "FIXED" so they can't do it again.

DO you think those old white guys in congress would go for that LOL

Any way, I'm a 67 year old man, I don't feel as if I have the right to tell a woman what the hell to do with her body.

You were so close, closer than you've been for awhile, but still so far away.

Let me try to put it in some way you can understand.

You can't legislate "behavior": murder, abortion, drug use
But you can regulate it by getting rid of guns, banning medical professionals from offering abortions, waging a war against drug dealers.

None of the aformentioned moves will eradicate murder, abortion or drug use, but they will limit them by regulating them.

Biden campaign confirms he supports controversial abortion rule

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/44...ion-rule-report

His poll numbers will drop like a rock if this gets hammered like it should. He supports the ban on federal money being used by any entity that is connected to abortions. That's a far right rule, Biden will pay a price.

White House ends fetal tissue research by federal scientists

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/...ntists-63506968

Anti abortion pro lifers stealing hope from children with childhood cancers... am I the only one that sees the irony/hypocrisy?

Liberals move to purge pro-life Dems from party, amid furor over abortion laws

The left flank of the Democratic Party is ramping up efforts to target and isolate pro-life Democrats, as the party base mobilizes over restrictive new abortion laws being passed in states across the country.

While the party once tolerated both pro-life and pro-choice Democrats inside the tent, those with pro-life views are being told they aren’t welcome anymore.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/liberal...r-abortion-laws

Tow the line or get out!

Make Democrats Republican Again

Well you heard it on Fox News so it must be true...

This must be a quote from a Trump supporter.

Biden Reverses Position, Rejects Hyde Amendment, Cites Attacks On Abortion Access

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/06/730515910...abortion-access


That didn't take long.

Biden is a stupid John Kerry who thinks he's Obama. I can't wait to watch him run his campaign into the ground. Hopefully he doesn't elect Trump.

I wouldn't have stood a chance.

And life would have gone in for the rest of us, unaware.

Oh far from it. It would be some of those left wing radicals they have running that would do that.

What some people fail to ever admit is that it's actually independent voters that decide elections and it's the heartland you have to win. States like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin and Michigan. Moderate people. You won't win that with, "We're going to give everyone free stuff" candidate of your choice.

The best way to give away the election in 2020 is trying to cram some left wing liberal down the nations throat.

You're already going to win New York and California. Stop trying to pander even further to the fringe.

This is a bad take. Historically "Independent voters" vote for Republicans over 60% of the time. The demographics have only recently began to shift with millennials, pushing a lot of it to the left. But yes, the left needs to appeal to the rust belt where healthcare, higher education, joblessness and drug abuse run rampant. Joe Biden, Romney and Hillary Clinton need to stop appealing to New York bankers.

Dems need to focus on non voters (40% of Americans) rather than focusing on moderates.

Millennials by far vote less than any other demographic. The 2016 election was decided by a little over 77,000 votes in three moderate states. It seems some have learned nothing from that experience.

So, you're for eugenics? This shoils take care of liberals.

So you agree that catering to Independents is a losing strategy. Instead Democrats should focus on states that elected Sherrod Brown, Rashida Tlaib, and Ilhan Omar.

Classic Con.

Here I thought you mixing up north and south Korea was the dumbest thing you'd say today.

You mention districts, not states. We both no that holds no water.

Sherrod Brown is a senator who is the vital piece of the Democrats' political strategy in Ohio. He's been passed over for VP, because they think that once he's out of the Senate, they don't think they will be able to get back in.

But yes, the other two are in districts in states where Trump has a large support group.

And the gov. has been a Republican for a long time in Ohio. And Ohio favored Trump in 2016. After helping elect Obama. It's obvious these states are swing states and Sherrod Brown is no indication of which way they will vote in a national election.

Sherrod and Obama were on the same ticket, but your point stands. My point is that Democrats have won Ohio by going to the left of the moderates. Moderate policies like Killary's, Kerry and Biden will not win Ohio from Republicans.

So do you really think Obama and Bill Clinton were that far left of moderate? I know the right made it sound that way but they do that with every candidate the Democrats run.

But both Bill Clinton and Obama weren't even close to being as liberal as some of the candidates that are now running for the nomination.

Well, they did both run on changing up healthcare. Moderate Democrats running on the status quo will not win in the Midwest.

And yeah, time moves forward and things change. The terms progressive and conservative change with time. But yeah, the Democrats got taken over by 3rd way Democrats in the late 70's and the Democratic party is coming close to recentering itself from the Clinton's and breaking away from the right. Unfortunately this is mainly because of the incoming crises that moderate thinking has brought us.

Actually things haven't changed that much in the few years since Obama left office. But some will only learn that lesson by Trump serving a second term I suppose.

More than a lot has changed since he has left, but even more changed since he got elected in his second term.

I don't really see how that changes the fact that Obama wasn't extremely liberal and won the states you need to win. Hillary's character had been attacked for years and ran a terrible campaign.

You can't sell the idea of "free everything" to middle America and expect to get elected. Working people know that nothing is free and that most of their ideas would never make it into law anyway. High in the sky dreams are not policy.

I never said he was extremely liberal, because he's not. He's just more liberal than Kerry, Clinton and Biden. Which really isn't hard. He also got more voters to the poll than any President since 68 looking at per capita. Obama is also black which helped voters turn out for him. I don't think that Democrats will be able to reproduce his results, especially with people like Hillary and Biden.

Also, you're literally always bragging that Tennessee, a republican state, promises 2 years of free college to Kentucky community colleges. That is a moderate resolution to a progressive idea.

As far as paying for it, look at Lizzy's plans. Or Bernie's. A far right think tank (Mercatus) ran the numbers and found that Bernie's M4A position would save US citizens 2 trillion dollars over 1 decade. The math lines up.

I do bring up Tennessee in reference to college because it is a moderate idea to a complex problem.

Bernie's healthcare plan would save taxpayers money. Yet along with it you're trying to tell Americans they have no choice in their healthcare plan. That they will be force fed what the government tells them they have. In no way, shape or form will that be an easy sell. But when you combine that with free college and all of his other liberal ideas, the math will no longer add up. That's kind of my point.

The, "I want it all and I want it now" politics doesn't add up as a whole. And Warren seems to claim that, "taxing anything over 50 million in income by 2% additional" is going to pay for everything she plans to do"?

There's a difference in having ideas and being able to pay for them all. There's a difference between being able to pay for them and getting voters to believe that.

What I always try to keep in mind is that complex plans and ideas when proposed in bulk, takes a lot of understanding and explanation that many voters simply won't grasp. I know that sounds terrible but we live in a society that is based largely on 30 second sound bites.

You simply can't sell them so many ideas and changes at the same time. You can't pay for all of these programs at the same time. A total change to the societal norms is impractical to the thinking of the average American.

You will have the other side singing socialism in their ear the entire time. And when trying to overhaul the entire system as it stands now, it will ring true to them.

I'm just admitting that I am not the sharpest knife in the crayon box

My sister has adopted two and my wife and I have been trying to adopt for almost a year... hard as hell... I get why it has to be a stringent process but I wish we could make the adoption process easier...

My humble opinion I think we need better access to brith control for women.... restrictions on abortion... I understand in cases of rape or things like the night after pill.... but mid to late term abortion should not be legal... and we need to improve the process of adoption...

I wish you well, jaybird.
Adoption was a divine blessing for me and My Sis.

I've read you at this address for years, and know how much you want this. I have no doubt that you would be the same kind of committed, dedicated parents who raised us to have happy, productive adult lives.

Pulling for you, Dawg.
I mean that from the heart.

My brother was adopted. I rarely even think about that fact. When I do, I smile, because of the fact that I don’t think about it.....he’s every bit mine and our’s than if he were born to our parents.

I would have loved to have adopted children when I was younger. But, you know, we can’t have those awful gay people giving loving and stable homes to our young people.

"Times are changing. Slowly, but they ARE changing," ...said one minority to another.

It's a shame.
You deserved the same full life My Parents got to have as they raised us. Some kid(s) in need deserved to have you for a parent.

Your bro is your bro.
My sis is adopted as was I... but we come from two entirely separate gene pools. And My Sis is My Sis. It's how love works, as you already know.


Love you, Jules.
Glad I found your post tonight.
It was a bright spot.

Thanks Clem.. emotional rolla coaster... wife and I have bene through all sorts of infertility issues which has lead to a pretty interesting testimony... I figure we'll add adoption to it at some point... know our child is out there somewhere... just excited to meet them....

Good luck dawg ... your day will come hopefully sooner than later ...

Please keep us informed .... i’d Love to know when the magical day finally arrives ...

In regards to your comments on abortion, you present a logical, common sense middle ground. That's something the two national political parties either lack the will to do or the desire to do.

Good luck in the adoption process. I know a few people that have been through it and it sounds like hell.

It's a shame that our society sees things that way. The two of you certainly have the love to give and it's a shame that a child deserving of it doesn't have the opportunity to receive it.

Thanks, Clem, you know I love you too. I can’t cheat on DC though, because he was my first board love.

The times are changing. Slowly, but surely.

J/C




If we found something squiggling around in another world, it would win a Nobel, but our children are throw aways.

Maybe, but our space force would kill it.

After they put it in a womans womb

I still don't think I have the right to tell any woman what to do with their own bodies.. I don't want to pay for it, but I don't believe I have that right.

Awww, I love you too Jules and miss having you around more regularly, though I fully understand. This is, however, an odd love triangle because... y'know.... well.... I love Clem too.

I'll book the room.

They ain't gonna do no Motel 6 though.

Federal Courts
Published 4 hours ago

Appeals court lifts injunctions on family planning rules, in win for Trump administration


By Bill Mears, Alex Pappas

Fox News



Trump administration blocks taxpayer-funded family planning clinics from providing abortion referrals

President Trump announces new rule that will take millions away from Planned Parenthood; reaction from former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, Fox News contributor.

The Trump administration’s new family planning rules banning federally-funded family planning clinics from discussing abortion with patients can go into effect after a federal appeals court on Thursday lifted nationwide injunctions imposed by lower courts.

The new policy, announced last year, would withdraw federal Title X funding from any medical facility that provides abortions, as well as abortion counseling or abortion referrals.



The 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals -- which previously upheld separate nationwide injunctions on a range of Trump administration policies, including on immigration -- issued the order Thursday, giving a major victory to the Trump administration.

“We are pleased that the Ninth Circuit has cleared the way for this important executive branch action to take effect while our appeals are pending,” Justice Department spokeswoman Kelly Laco said. “The Department of Justice’s position is supported by long-standing Supreme Court precedent and we are confident we will ultimately prevail on appeal.”

Planned Parenthood was among the groups opposing the new rules. The policy has been derided as a "gag rule" by Planned Parenthood.

“This is a devastating blow to the 4 million patients who obtain birth control, cancer screenings, and other essential care through Title X,” the organization tweeted.

Democrats, including those running for president, also lashed out over the ruling.

“The Trump administration's Title X gag rule will deny access to basic reproductive health care for millions of people. I call that a violation of human rights,” New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, a 2020 Democratic presidential candidate, tweeted. “We will fight back.”

Planned Parenthood’s clinics are major recipients of grants for family planning and basic preventive care. During the 2016 election, President Trump campaigned on defunding the organization.



Known as Title X, the nation's family planning program serves about four million women a year through clinics, at a cost to taxpayers of about $260 million.

An administration official said the proposal is based on, though is not identical to, a Reagan-era rule.

The policy was rescinded under President Bill Clinton, and a new rule went into effect that allowed "nondirective" counseling to include a range of options for women

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/appeals...-administration

Congratulations in your win for mens quest to control women in every way. Take away their lawfully given rights, take away their funding for contraception, family planning, and professional counseling.

Good on you congrats ...pffft. Hope you’re not betting on a trump bump popularity, especially from women.

Trump abortion rule deals 'devastating blow' to Planned Parenthood, group says

close

HHS Secretary Alex Azar on court's abortion clinic ruling.
The Trump administration stopped taxpayer dollars from going to abortion referrals at publicly funded family planning centers on Monday.

Planned Parenthood, the nation's largest abortion provider, sued the administration, along with 20 states and the District of Columbia, in an attempt to stop Health and Human Services, or HHS, from diverting Title X family planning funding going to abortions. But the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, with two judges appointed by Trump, rejected the plea.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-abortion-tax-dollar-planned-parenthood

The tide turns.

And it will move up the chain to another court.

You think they will appeal it to the Supreme Court?

I dare them to.

I'm sure they're quivering because of your dare.

Why not post the whole article? Because the next paragraph shows the harm your idiots are doing...

"“This is a devastating blow to the 4 million patients who obtain birth control, cancer screenings, and other essential care through Title X,” the organization tweeted."

Do you think the GOPer SCOTUS Judges are going to overturn Roe v. Wade? Talk about political suicide! lmao.

Do any of you realize that half the country is female? smh
And yes, the religious right females might support this now, but wait until their daughters are dying in back alleys and see how much support they'll give you. All they've done today is strike a blow to poor women who rely on PP for these female medical services. You want to test this for real, ask you boy to ban DNCs for current and retired military at VA's and base hospitals. That will shut this crap down now.

Apparently you believe all women support abortion.

Not at all, but being all holier than thou goes out the window when it hits home. I know that for a fact.

And I never knew a preacher's daughter that didn't have a little wild streak and a mind of her own. My first wife was one.

So now you believe women who are against abortion are acting Holier than Thou.

I am beginning to see a pattern with you.

Twist and spin. You know exactly what I said.

40: So, you find reason to celebrate denying poor females basic female healthcare and get your jollies controlling women's bodies. I see who you are...

2 can play that game.

You get your jollies killing babies!!!

Sorry man, you don't see much.

Science is continually seeking life in the universe, yet many can't see that splitting cells in a uterus is life.

If it wasn't human life, it would be strictly protected, thanks in part to you, human life is thrown away.

Get lost

You know the sad part about this is if Planned Parenthood just stopped doing abortions they could still get the funding for the good things they provide. But NNNOOOOO thats not going to happen.

Well the people who run Planned Parenthood have a deep belief that helping women - including abortion - is important. So important that it's better to still include that part of what they offer to support women than simply take the federal dollars and cease offering it. Their belief is as strong as your belief - just opposite.

I agree that their feelings and beliefs are just as strong, and they have every right to their feelings and beliefs as I do.

They weren't doing abortions, they were only making referrals to safe and affordable abortion services. DAMN THEM...

The is like your family doctor being defunded because they refer you to a specialist that accepts medicare or is willing to work with you on payments.

1. There is zero reason why GM and I should have to pay them to send women to the butcher.

2. My Doctor does not kill children. If he did, I would defund him.

This is from the PP website:

"Where can I get an in-clinic abortion?
You can get an in-clinic abortion at many Planned Parenthood health centers. Our caring doctors and nurses are experts at providing safe abortion and providing support throughout the process."

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/...clinic-abortion

I love how one of the lefts mantra is whos gonna pay for these children and are so very tax conscious about that ,but they have tax problems with the illegals that are costing us billions but- oh well- agendas are more important than human lives even after they are born SMH

I get that some PP locations perform abortions on premises. But those were already defunded. 40's post was celebrating the defunding of PP locations and others that merely make abortion referrals. That's why my post points that pout.

No. 40 is celebrating the fact he no longer has to pay for referrals to the butcher.

I thought about it and would like to add that I have no problem helping any children that need it no matter what origin for they are the innocent ones in this debate but when that child is fully formed inside the mother or outside of her it is not her body and is not her decision to murder that child at that point IMO.

Let's translate that......

You know, if Planned Parenthood could be blackmailed into stop performing a perfectly legal procedure we would stop withholding their funding.

Keywords 'Fully formed'. A fully formed fetus would be late term. I don't think anybody is fighting for third trimester abortions. And killing a fully formed baby 'outside' of it's mother would be murder. Who is killing babies after they are born?

Could you please tell me where Roe V Wade guaranteed tax payer money to pay for abortions?

You need to read my signature bro. Because your wrong. *gives Old Cold a hug*

Well GM I'm sure it didn't. But somewhere along the line some legislation did provide that funding or the checks would never have been cut. And I'm sure the reason was to provide low cost female reproductive healthcare to a percentage of the population that would otherwise go without. Pap smears, mammograms, urinary tract infections, menstrual cycle issues, tubal ligations, iud implants, birth control meds, and a litany of other female complications were all defunded too. Congratulations on your victory.

The clinics doing abortions were already defunded. This particular Trump victory was defunding the rest of PP over referrals. Referrals were his excuse because he promised to defund PP during his campaign. It had nothing to do with them 'providing abortions' on the taxpayers dime.

Once agai your wrong bro. I don't see this as a victory. I see it as a loss on both sides.



I see the lose of those services as a screw up on both sides (BUT with more blame going to the left.) Quit trying to spend taxpayer money on abortions and the other things would all be covered, and funded. The problem with the left is their see they won't support woman so it's all their fault, instead of looking in the mirror and saying why is the left acting like a child and crying that they are taking their ball and going home instead of working to help the folks who they have been screaming for years that they support?

That's where your homework has failed you GM. Planned Parenthood used no federal money to pay for abortion. None, zero, nada. Not one dime of federal funds were used to perform abortions.

That's exactly why I translated what you said. You see, all of the federal money that has been taken away from Planned Parenthood went towards birth control, cancer screenings, mammograms and other women's health services.

It was nothing more than a political ploy to force them to stop performing abortion.



I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that abortions were being paid for with federal tax dollars, but that certainly wasn't the case. The fact is, Planned Parenthood and the vast majority of their patients have been punished even though your tax dollars were not paying for abortions.

Not wrong.

And that second bit was a little hard to get your meaning, but you don't get to blame the left for existing legislation that funded PP abortion referrals or abortions. The right and left passed that legislation in another more compassionate era. As for dems not wanting to let the right rip the money away for STILL LEGAL abortion services, why should they? Because men like you want to control what a woman can do with her body? Or because men like you think we're baby killers for supporting a woman's right to choose? Or because men like you have some sort of religious objection to 'legal' abortions? GMAB bro.

EDIT: Pit is right above and I completely forgot about the Hyde amendment. The abortions were not covered by government funds at all. The referrals, pre-abortion counseling, pregnancy tests, and other test prior to a female making her choice were covered.

But, couldn't it be argued that, while no federal funding went for abortions, federal funding towards planned parenthood freed up donations to go towards abortions?





And truthfully, I know 1 gal that went to pp. Many years ago. Pregnant. And pp 'advised'/'educated' her - gave her options, and she decided to have the baby and not abort.


But, do you see what I'm getting at? Money comes in, not for abortions......but that does free up other money FOR abortions.

I guess that depends on your feelings on the matter.

Medicaid pays for birth control, mammograms, cancer screenings and other female services no matter what doctor a woman goes to.

So you would have to try and come up with a reason why medicaid would have the right to exclude one place from receiving the exact same payments as all other health providers in the nation.

Which takes us right back to the point i made to begin with. They are being singled out and punished because they provide abortions. Which is a perfectly legal procedure in the United States.

So it seems you propose they be punished not because they are doing anything illegal, but over a certain part of our political sector and population is passing moral judgement. And that moral judgement gives them the right to single them out and refuse to give them equal funding for already approved services.

Once again, you take liberties with what I said, OR, you don't understand what I said.

I didn't say to punish pp. I simply asked "if fed. money is doing all this womens health stuff, doesn't that free up money from donations to do abortions?"



Can you even reason with me here? Can you see the point I'm making? Forget that Arch is the one posting it for a second.

PP has a budget. Any money they get from the gov't. goes towards that budget.

And you totally ignore my friends situation, where she was convinced after talking to pp to NOT have an abortion.

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here but let me try again.

Firstly, I didn't ignore the experience of your friend. I've known all along that Planned Parenthood has never tried to promote that anyone has an abortion. Some people try to portray it that way but it's simply not the case.

And I didn't mean to insinuate that you suggested punishing Planned Parenthood but that instead that is the end result of what you're suggesting.

They provide the same services that many other places provide in terms of mammograms, cancer screening, birth control and other services covered by medicaid. All of those services are approved through medicaid. Abortion is 100%legal.

So what has happened is that the government has refused to pay them for approved medicaid procedures simply because they perform another 100% legal service the government does not fund. They have been targeted not because they have broken any laws. Not because the procedures they perform are not covered by medicaid.

But because some propose punishing them on moral grounds. Why should any agency that is performing procedures and services covered 100% through medicaid be singled out and they be refused to be paid for those services?

I certainly understand your premise. What you're saying is that Planned Parenthood should be forced to raise their own funds to perform services to poor people that everyone else in the country gets reimbursed for because you know, they perform totally legal abortions.

That is about certain people's version of morality being inflicted on women in America because so far they can't change that law. So if they can't change it, they'll manipulate the system to prevent it anyway.

And let's look at this from another angle, shall we? Many times Planned Parenthood locations are the only option in very poor areas. The choices of places that are available to these people are almost non existent.

So now, if you close Planned Parenthood locations, these women have no access to birth control. So now the pregnancy rates in these areas will increase. Breast cancers will not be diagnosed in time to save these women. Cancer screenings will not be given.

All of these things will disappear and in the end it will cost the tax payers even more in treatments, social programs and other costs those who can't see past their own nose will cost us. And who will suffer the most? Poor women.

Planned Parenthood ousts president amid 'differences'

Dr. Leana Wen, the first physician to lead Planned Parenthood in nearly 50 years, is out of a job less than a year after she took over.

Abby Johnson: Planned Parenthood isn’t about health care, it’s about abortion – That’s why I quit

By Abby Johnson | Fox News

I am not prone to shedding tears or being overly emotional. I prefer to use my innate sarcasm and wit instead of crying when emotion hits harder than I expect. But when I read Dr. Leana Wen’s tweet about being shoved out of Planned Parenthood, where she served as president, I cried.

Tears seemed like an appropriate response as I stood in solidarity with Wen. I was reminded of my own loss of security and friendships when I left Planned Parenthood 10 years ago.

While I never rose to become president of Planned Parenthood, I was on track to a high position in the nonprofit when I started thinking that my own philosophy wasn’t the same as my employer’s.

I became director of the clinic I started out volunteering for and stayed on for eight years. Like Wen, I became aware of the abortion-centric mentality of Planned Parenthood and wasn’t comfortable with it. It took me a lot longer than Wen to figure that out. She came to the conclusion mere months after signing on as president of the organization.

I left after I assisted in the ultrasound-guided abortion of a 13-week-old fetus and realized humanity in the womb existed – humanity that I had shoved aside for years. But when I left, I also left all my “friends” behind, the people in the clinic I worked with daily, my supervisors, and even my pro-choice church family.

It was hard. I imagine Wen is experiencing similar feelings of betrayal. I know exactly what that betrayal feels like. I know exactly what kind of “secret meetings” Wen was referring to when she tweeted out she was leaving Planned Parenthood.

Perhaps Wen didn’t leave because of a profound conversion, but she did make it clear she left because Planned Parenthood has too many problems that she can’t ignore. And that is amazing. As a doctor, I’m sure the rose-colored glasses were ripped off pretty quickly once she was inside. And now she’s out.

What I didn’t realize was that the people I saw all the time at the fence outside my Planned Parenthood office were silent prayer warriors, praying for my conversion and my departure from the abortion giant. I joined them when I walked out and soon came to learn that it wasn’t only the Coalition for Life in Texas that was praying for me, but a whole network of people who were begging God to change hearts. Hearts like mine.

Once I started telling my story, I began to meet more and more people who couldn’t wait to tell me that they had been praying for me. Some for years.

At first, it was a little disconcerting and surreal. I didn’t even know these people, yet, here I was, a living breathing answer to their prayers. But once I began to find more of my own healing and experienced a conversion and a deeper understanding within my own spiritual life, I got it. I started praying for my former boss, Cecile Richards, then-president of Planned Parenthood.

I had admired and respected Richards when I worked at Planned Parenthood. I enjoyed being with her and felt like I had learned a lot from her. So I prayed for her to quit.

My conversion was God’s victory. What a victory it would be if God pulled on Cecile’s heart the same way He did mine. And I prayed for that, day after day, after I left Planned Parenthood.

When Richards resigned, I felt defeated because it seemed she had not experienced the same conversion I had. I felt like God wasn’t listening to me. Doesn’t everyone of faith feel like that at some point in their lives?

I was sad because I wanted Richards to have the same freedom I did: that moment when you walk out the door and you know you’ll never look back.

Of course, God’s timing isn’t our timing. There is still time for Richards’ conversion. But what about Wen?

Because Wen is a physician, many of our former abortion workers that I now work with through And Then There Were None paid particular attention to what she was saying about Planned Parenthood. We were interested in knowing how she would react once she was exposed to the group’s constant mantra of pushing abortion over all else. Would she visit clinics and sit in on abortions or perform them herself?

Wen knows what real health care is and perhaps doesn’t put abortion in that category. With Planned Parenthood’s terrible track record of failed clinic inspections, a good doctor is not what the group is looking for. Forget health care, this is about abortion, which to Planned Parenthood is a political issue.

Many of our former workers started praying for Wen’s conversion the moment it was announced she would be president of Planned Parenthood. I started praying for her conversion too. If we profess to be Christians, we have to act as such.

Degrading memes and snarky responses to Wen’s sudden departure won’t help her. She recently suffered a miscarriage, which she discussed publicly only a few weeks ago. And now she’s lost her job.

At a time when Wen’s co-workers should be supporting her healing, they simply disregarded her recent loss and expected her to soldier on. Wen needs a community that will surround her and care for her right now in her time of need.

I don’t expect that Wen is pro-life or even anything that resembles pro-life. I wasn’t either when I first walked away from Planned Parenthood.

But the chance for a real conversion is so much greater now that Wen is away from that organization. And when that moment does come, I am ready. I am ready to chat with her for hours, to hear her story, to grieve with her, and to mourn the loss of her own child. I am here, arms open.

It’s my prayer that her moment of clarity comes quickly. And when it does, she will need a safe place to land. I urge the pro-life movement to be sure we are that place.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/abby-johnson-planned-parenthood

Myth #1: Planned Parenthood is all about abortions

A former senator of Arizona claimed that 90% of Planned Parenthood's services were geared towards abortion services.

Man, that statistic was way off. Abortion services only account for 3%! 80% of what Planned Parenthood does relates to the prevention of unintended pregnancy through contraception and education.

It's true that Planned Parenthood performs the largest number of abortions of any reproductive health care provider, which is partly where the myth comes from; but it is also the largest provider with over 700 clinics scattered around the US.

Myth #2: Most of their abortion services are performed on adolescents

I admit, my understanding of who got abortions was heavily influenced by the movie Juno, but I was surprised that only 26% of Planned Parenthood clients who had received an abortion were teenagers, meaning that 74% are 20 years of age and older.

“It doesn’t just happen to young people, it doesn’t necessarily have to do with irresponsibility,” the president of PP, Rhode Island said in a press release.

I was even more surprised that 60% of women in the US who choose to get an abortion have already given birth to a child.

Myth #3 All of PP's services are pregnancy-focused and woman-focused

This one's understandable. I mean, it's what PP's known for. Evidently, they provide a plethora of services, ranging from over 500,000 breast exams to detect signs of breast cancer in women, to testicular and colon cancer screenings for men.

Combating sexually transmitted infections (STIs), including HIV, is also a big part of what they do. Men, women and teenagers have made use of the 4.5 million tests and treatments that have been provided by PP.

Myth #4: Their government-funded, extensive education programs aren't doing anything

PP is leading the conversation on sexual education--through sex-ed and outreach, they've allegedly helped reduce teen pregnancies to the lowest they've been in 20 years! They must be doing something right.

They've also reached over 1.5 million adolescents and families, and trained over 18,000 teachers, school staff and youth counsellors in the process.

Although the immediate effects aren't super apparent, the lead educator of the program sums up the importance of education well: “Young people cannot be expected to make safe, healthy decisions if they don’t have the complete range of information.”

Myth #5: Taxpayer dollars are going towards PP abortions

That's actually illegal--and I'm pretty sure a health care provider as big as Planned Parenthood wouldn't get away with that.

By law, the federal government can't pay for abortion services unless the cases involve rape, incest or endanger the mother's life. This isn't new either. Otherwise known as the Hyde Amendment, the law has been enforced since 1977.

Unfortunately, uninsured, low-income women are most harshly affected by this.

Myth #6: PP is limited to the US

False: their reach has been expanding overseas for the past 40 years! People in 13 different countries across Africa and Latin America have access to PP's educational services, contraception, unsafe abortion treatment and abortion services.

PP claims to be dedicated to improving global access to reproductive health care.

What's the bigger picture?

Being able to access reproductive health care is a concern worldwide--one that could save lives and empower millions of women.

What distinguishes Planned Parenthood's services is that they're hygienic, safe and non-discriminatory. They're available to people all over the US, which is a right that's denied to many people across the globe, including almost 22 million women who experience unsafe abortions each year.

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/6-myths-about-planned-parenthood/

Abby Johnson is a liar.. Just like Trump

Bro we need some alternative facts to win the Christian GOPer backing for PP...

#ATruth 1 - PP has taken out more Muslims than all of the US golf wars combined! It allows Muslim abortions at any stage of development including after live birth.

#ATruth 2 - PP has been the single biggest factor for maintaining white christian majority in this country for 50 years. Defunding PP will usher in a POC non-christian majority within 10 years.

#ATruth 3 - PP saves the US Government 125 Billion a year in welfare handouts.

Now that would win some votes on the right... Trupian votes.

Planned Parenthood opens Illinois 'mega-clinic' secretly built to counter tough Missouri anti-abortion law

Planned Parenthood announced the opening of a new 18,000 square-foot clinic in Southern Illinois on Wednesday after more than a year of secretly building the facility.

The new mega clinic in Illinois is just 13 miles from Missouri's last remaining abortion clinic, located in St. Louis.

CBS News reports that Planned Parenthood used a shell company to build the massive facility, leaving no sign as to who was behind the operation.

Colleen McNicholas, chief medical officer of Planned Parenthood of the St. Louis Region and Southwest Missouri, told the news outlet that the facility was built secretively to avoid protestors and possible delays in construction.

"We were really intentional and thoughtful about making sure that we were able to complete this project as expeditiously as possible because we saw the writing on the wall — patients need better access, so we wanted to get it open as quickly as we could," McNicholas said.

CBS News reports it first visited the facility in August while it was under construction. The completion of the project comes as Missouri’s last abortion clinic is locked in a legal battle after the state’s health department refused to renew its license.

A law passed earlier this year in Missouri would ban abortions in the state after eight weeks, one of the most restrictive measures nationwide. A federal judge in August temporarily blocked the law.

CBS News notes that as several states have enacted more restrictive abortion laws, Illinois is trending in the other direction by expanding abortion access and loosening restrictions. The state earlier this year passed the "Reproductive Health Act" that establishes access to abortion as a fundamental right.

The new Illinois facility is expected to start taking patients later this month. McNicholas said she expects an influx of patients coming to the new clinic from Missouri.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch...ois-in-response

Trump-backed 'conscience' rule for healthcare workers voided by U.S. judge

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A federal judge on Wednesday voided a White House-backed rule that would have made it easier for doctors and nurses to avoid performing abortions on religious or moral grounds.

U.S. District Judge Paul Engelmayer in Manhattan said the so-called “conscience” rule was unconstitutionally coercive, by letting the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) withhold billions of dollars of federal funding from healthcare providers unless they complied.

“Wherever the outermost line where persuasion gives way to coercion lies, the threat to pull all HHS funding here crosses it,” Engelmayer wrote in a 147-page decision.

The judge also said the rule conflicted with federal laws governing the obligations of employers to accommodate workers’ religious objections, and hospitals to provide emergency treatment to patients who could not afford it.

Engelmayer’s decision covered a lawsuit by New York state and 22 other states and municipalities, as well as two lawsuits by Planned Parenthood and other healthcare providers.

HHS and the U.S. Department of Justice did not immediately respond to requests for comment. The rule was scheduled to take effect on Nov. 22.

U.S. President Donald Trump, a Republican, has made expanding religious liberty a priority, and the conscience rule has drawn support from abortion opponents.

Neither the office of New York Attorney General Letitia James nor Planned Parenthood immediately responded to requests for comment.

The states and municipalities have said the rule could undermine their ability to provide effective healthcare, and upset their efforts to accommodate workers’ beliefs while ensuring that hospitals and other businesses treated patients effectively.

Opponents of the rule have also said it could deprive gay, transgender and other patients of needed healthcare because providers might be deemed less worthy of treatment.

HHS countered that the rule would help enforce “conscience protection” laws that have been on the books for decades.

Engelmayer said these provisions “recognize and protect undeniably important rights,” but the government’s rulemaking “was sufficiently shot through with glaring legal defects.”

The state and municipal plaintiffs are led by Democrats or often lean Democratic.

They also include New York City, Chicago and Washington, D.C.; the states of Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, Virginia and Wisconsin; and Cook County, Illinois.

The states’ case is New York et al v. U.S. Department of Health and Human Services et al, U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York, No. 19-04676.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-h...s-idUSKBN1XG2DD