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Posted By: Versatile Dog How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 12:05 AM
The other day, I was reading a thread and these cats were talking about Trump got elected because he hosted a TV game show or something like that. I never watched the show, but I disagreed and said that I doubted Trump being on a TV show was why he won the election.

I proposed an alternative explanation in which I talked about how the Democratic party has been ignoring the white middle class who work for a living and even going as far to ask them to pay for even more than they already do.

I received a couple of hostile responses from two posters w/the usual labeling included and told my ideas were nonsense.

Well, not all Dems and Progressives agree w/the extremists and some are thinking more along the lines that I have been for quite some time.

It's about damn time.


Quote:

Progressives lay out racial justice strategy to win over working-class whites


Jon Ward Fri, Jul 19 5:00 AM EDT

A few days before President Trump’s Twitter rant against four congresswomen of color, a few thousand progressives gathered in Philadelphia to hear speakers exhort them to make race a central issue in the 2020 election.

“We’ve got to center racial justice,” Rashad Robinson, the executive director of Color of Change, told the Netroots Nation conference. Robinson told the audience that “racial justice is a strategy for gaining power and winning power.”

Robinson represents a left wing of the party that wants to confront Trump’s demagoguery on race and identity head on, not shying away from the topic.

“Democrats for years tried to both mobilize and engage black voters and voters of color and tried to avoid conversations around race with white folks, and it just didn’t work,” he told Yahoo News in an interview a few days after his Netroots speech.

“Democrats not talking about race doesn’t mean race is not going to be talked about,” Robinson said.

But can Democratic politicians do that in a way that wins new converts, particularly among the white working class whose votes might decide the 2020 election in the key battleground states of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania? Is there a way for Democrats to talk about systemic racism in a way that actually wins over white voters rather than alienating them? Robinson was clear-eyed about the challenge. “People could come to hate Trump and not love our side in return,” he said.


Robinson and other progressive leaders who spoke to Yahoo News echoed a consistent message. The way to make racial justice a political winner, they said, is to combine it with a populist message aimed at convincing working-class whites that they’ve been distracted by the politics of race while wealthy elites take advantage of middle class and poor people of all races and ethnicities.

The Rev. Greg Holston, the leader of the Philadelphia interfaith group Power, spoke at Netroots after Robinson and denounced what he called an “unholy alliance between the white elite and the white working class.”

“We cannot win … unless we build a real black and Latino and working-class white-folk coalition that can stand together,” he said.


The Rev. William Barber, a North Carolina minister who was central to a series of protests against the Republican state legislature in 2013, has said much the same thing. “The persons who get elected by what some courts have now called surgical racism, once in office they vote to deny health care, living wages, cut public education, deny women’s rights, consumer rights, LGBTQ rights in ways that hurt — in raw numbers — more rural white people,” he told former Vice President Joe Biden at the event.

Barber’s Poor People’s Campaign hosted nine Democratic presidential candidates in Washington, D.C., in mid-June. And during that daylong event, he repeatedly came back to the same theme, that issues like voter suppression and gerrymandering — often interpreted solely as something done by white politicians to hurt black communities — does just as much to hurt poor whites.


Biden appeared to be in agreement to a certain degree. “The charlatans have been able to pit black folks against white folks against Latino” by telling “poor folks” that they are poor “because of all those immigrants, all those Muslims, all those African-Americans,” Biden said.

Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., was even more pointed in his remarks at the Poor People’s Campaign event. “We say to those white workers, ‘You think African-Americans and immigrants are your enemies? Why don’t you take a look at Wall Street?’” Sanders said.

Robinson said calling out specific “villains” like Sanders did — and Biden didn’t — is crucial because it’s the “full story.”

“If we are not willing to name the villains and the profiteers, the corporations and other businesses and the way the rules have been set up, if we’re not able to explain that and walk people through that because we are too afraid of losing corporate support or corporate dollars, then we don’t have a compelling story for people about exactly why it’s happening, and Donald Trump’s story will be compelling for people.”

Immigration offers one example. The progressive message is that the business community pushed the U.S. government to take a lax enforcement approach to border security for decades because it provided them with cheap labor from South and Central America. Immigrants had no leverage to organize themselves to demand higher wages or better working conditions.

And now those same business leaders are backing Republican candidates like Trump, who pass huge tax cuts for corporations while demonizing immigrants. Meanwhile, working-class whites were also victimized by globalization and outsourcing. “The injustice of companies moving their businesses overseas, not paying taxes, and depriving the white working class of benefits and income is also an unrighteous and unjust act,” Holston, the Philadelphia preacher, told Yahoo News.

“We should be lifting up justice for everyone,” he said.

At the Netroots conference, Alicia Garza, one of three women credited with starting the Black Lives Matter conference, was asked what her message would be to people who aren’t black.

“Black people’s issues are your issues too,” she said.

*****

One potential obstacle to a populist approach to race is language. A voter recently questioned presidential candidate Kirsten Gillibrand in Youngstown, Ohio, about how she and other Democrats can speak of “white privilege” to whites in the Rust Belt, where an entire way of life has been uprooted by globalization and outsourcing, creating desolate wastelands where joblessness and a loss of hope have led to epidemics of drug addiction and suicide.

“I hear you saying there is a lot of divisive language coming from Republicans, coming from Trump and that we are looking for ways to blame each other. But the Democratic Party loves to throw around terms like ‘white privilege,’” the woman, who was unidentified in news reports, asked Gillibrand, a Democratic senator from New York. “Now this is an area that across all demographics has been depressed because of the loss of its industry and the opioids crisis. So what do you have to say to people in this area about so-called white privilege?”

Gillibrand talked at length about her recognition “that families in this community are suffering deeply.”

“That is devastating when you’ve lost your job, you’ve lost your ability to provide for your kids, that when you put 20, 30 years into a company that all of a sudden doesn’t care about you or won’t call you back and gives you a day to move. That is not acceptable and not OK. So no one in that circumstance is privileged on any level, but that’s not what that conversation is about,” Gillibrand said.

Yet, she continued, “institutional racism is real. It doesn’t take away your pain or suffering. It’s just a different issue. Your suffering is just as important as a black or brown person’s suffering, but to fix the problems that are happening in a black community you need far more transformational efforts that are targeted for real racism that exists every day.”

Gillibrand did not make the explicit linkage that leaders like Barber, Robinson and Holston have called for — between racial justice and an economic populism that extends a hand to white working-class workers.

That, however, is exactly the message that Sanders and Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., are taking on the campaign trail.

“The rules are rigged because the rich and powerful have bought and paid for too many politicians. And if we dare to ask questions, they will try to divide us: pit white working people against black and brown working people so they won’t band together and demand real change,” Warren said in a commencement speech last December at Morgan State, a historically black university.


Sen. Kamala Harris, D-Calif., meanwhile, is taking more of a generalist approach, with some elements of the Warren and Sanders populism on big issues like health care combined with a self-proclaimed “joyful warrior” image, as she is often introduced at her campaign events. She wants to be known as a politician who speaks tough truths about racism, but who ultimately seeks to unite the country rather than divide it.


“I think that the American people want a leader who speaks truth, even when sometimes it might make people uncomfortable,” Harris said Sunday while campaigning in New Hampshire.

She said racial justice wasn’t the only hard truth that needed attention, mentioning economic inequality and climate change as other examples. But, she said, “we need to speak the truth that we have had racism and racist policies in our country, and we need to address those.”

“Sometimes it might make us uncomfortable to deal with America's history on race, but these are truths that must be spoken so we can deal with them,” she said. “And I do believe the vast majority of Americans want … a system in our country that treats people equally and gives people equal dignity and respect.”

Robinson, the leader of Color of Change, spoke to Yahoo News the day after Trump’s Twitter assault on four black and brown women in Congress. He said he was “less interested in politicians calling Trump a racist.”

“The path forward is not about whether or not Trump is a racist. He got elected, and we already knew all that,” Robinson said. “The question for Democrats is what is the path forward and how is the story different and is it plausible?”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/progressives-...-090000240.html

Is Elizabeth Warren considered to be a Progressive?
I'm not too interested in the "labels," but rather how the left can connect w/the white working middle class like they did back in the day.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 12:44 AM
Progressive policies yield conservative ideological results.
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 01:13 AM
Pit's dad preached this.
My Dad preached this.
My Great uncle, Giles Johnson preached this from his pulpit.
And so did his friend, MLK.

It's not a coincidence that MKL was assassinated only after he migrated his message from racial justice to economic justice (see: Poor People's Campaign). As long as he was the leader of The Coloreds, he was manageable. When he started gathering in poor Whites to his cause, he became a legitimate threat to the status quo.


Greater minds than mine have already seen this and shown us this.

I have to imagine that some people in Youngstown and some people in Delta are feeling a little let down these days. They were promised that things would get better, but Elizabeth Warren was still being asked the same questions that were being asked in 2015- an indication that things for them haven't improved at all. Same questions- 4 years later.

On the other hand, suit-wearing folks in air conditioned offices have done pretty well. Tax cuts, relaxed regs, and a figurehead potus who keeps the masses stirred up and looking elsewhere. Perfect for them... and nobody needs to be assassinated.


freah eyes are needed.
.02
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 04:05 AM
I've been hearing for about, emm, well up to 15 years now, from some people who are probably African American and on the Left politically,

I've been hearing some idea I don't agree with, this idea that there are tons of "non violent" people locked up, people of color, and it's a problem

I disagree because ya know, I abhor some things like, Car theft, Burglarly, bank robbery, (all of which I figure would/could fall into a "non violent" category, and I don't think people who do these things to people who were minding their own business anyways, should get out of jail.

One of the things Trump was saying in 2016 before the election, among all the other nonsense, ... he was saying ( I dunno) " blah blah blah, politicans don't do anything... blah blah blah, they should have done something for the 13 years they "WERE" a politician"

Well allz I know is Trump is president, and someone somewhere reported TODAY that 3000 prisoners were going to be let out of prison,

for something along the lines of being non violent drug offenders;:
Which is what I've been hearing from some folks that lean otherwise politically like I said in the top line of this post ^^^^

So Trump let them out, but that's not the answer to your question...

The question of How can the left connect with the white working class like they did back in the day.

Well I guess the answer lies somewhere in the fact, I didn't hear anyone pre-empting the message of letting 3000 people out of jail, with first calling them by their identity politics grouping of either
Gender group
Racial group
Sexuality group
Class group

climate group, electric car group, recycle group, tell you not to use plastic straws group, force you to buy solar panels or you'll lose your house group, (all new houses in California),

He, (or somebody), Just Did something, in a Way that didn't interfere with the average persons' attmempt to continue the struggle of life in America,

And He wasn't motivated by an all out Power Grab that leads to totalitarian control of all thought an action to whatever the democrats tell you you are supposed to think.

Another answer to your queston, Another thing the Left could do, (but they aren't doing)

If you want to connect with the white working class is stop ignoring them altogether. Also stop marginalizing them,

Look at the suggested solution from the long article, it would insult their intelligience I would think if it were to suggest that the answer to connect with the white working class is

1. Combine the "racial justice" message, (which helps everyone except them), combine that with a populist message

"Aimed at convincing folks they've been distracted by the racial politics while wealthy elites take advantage of the middle class and poor of all races and ethnicities.

( So let me get this straight?)

1. Not even listen to the white person, but tell them they are distracted by all this racial stuff, (which is only the focus of every news story 24-7), but they should ignore their own thoughts, because the democrats tell them they are distracted,
followed up by they should hate the wealthy elites for taking advantage of them.

Do you think this message is going to connect? I don't think you could get 5 year old children to fall for it.

How Progressives Can Win the Election

They don't have to, they usually just come up with tons of votes after the re-counts start like how Al Franken got his senate seat.
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 10:14 AM
My family was just having this discussion ... most agreed it will be very difficult for them to win at this point. Too much division and not strong enough candidates.
Quote:
It's not a coincidence that MKL was assassinated only after he migrated his message from racial justice to economic justice (see: Poor People's Campaign). As long as he was the leader of The Coloreds, he was manageable. When he started gathering in poor Whites to his cause, he became a legitimate threat to the status quo.


This is important. Much like the anecdote I related in the Education thread about how a white man could be jailed and a black man publicly whipped if the white man tried to educate the black man, those in charge know the best way to control the masses is by keeping them ignorant and fighting against each other.

You know this, Clem. When does significant change occur? Does it happen just because a minority group is being exploited? Or does it occur when members of the class that is in power become incensed enough to demand change?

Child Labor? How did those laws get changed? We both know that there novels, poems, articles, photographs, speeches, protests, etc of white middle class people speaking out in rage at such cruel practices.

Same thing went for safety conditions in our factories, sweat shops, mills, etc. Remember the fire where all the ladies burned to death in a sewing sweat shop because the building did not even have a fire escape? People were horrified. Upton Sinclair wrote The Jungle and described the working conditions in those places. The momentum grew as others joined in the crusade.

Same thing w/the Civil Rights movement. You provided an example of just went on there.

We have seen similar changes occur throughout history. Yet, many don't want to recognize how change occurs. It boggles one's mind.

If we truly want change, we must beat them w/intelligence, cooperation, using morality as a tool, and determination. We are not going to invoke change by alienating those we want help from.

And I am not just speaking about the poorest white folks. I am also speaking about winning over the white working-middle class. There are a ton of votes there.

One last thing for now. Folks are all over the place about immigration. Most people understand the problems that come w/illegal immigration. Some use that knowledge to paint all immigrants or people who look like they may be from Central and S. America w/a broad brush and those folks receive harsh treatment. However, w/the first-hand accounts of what is going on in some of these camps, especially in regards to the children, more and more people are speaking out about such inhumane practices. Thus, there is a growing amount of support, compassion, and even acceptance for those folks. Furthermore, members of ICE have been exposed for some of their disgusting biases that only serves to bring more concern for the immigrants who are being mistreated. Change will be coming to those camps because of exposure.

We can win by finding common ground and using intelligence, cooperation and determination to win. I do not think we can win by alienating a group of folks who make-up such a large portion of the voting base.

Think about you and I. We have been friends for years. We disagree on some issues, but we don't focus on those issues. Instead, we turn our attention to what we do have in common. Sports, music, art, ethics, morality, fairness, helping others, etc. And I won't speak for you, but I know that I will certainly listen to your perspective on something we don't quite see the same way as instead of a person who is constantly alienating me.
Sorry my friend but that ship has sailed and it’s not coming back in our lifetime. The Trump era has us all in shackles and the the GOP lead senate continues to double down on his deplorable policies.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 01:22 PM
Quote:
And I am not just speaking about the poorest white folks. I am also speaking about winning over the white working-middle class. There are a ton of votes there.


How about one who worries about the middle class and couldn't give a rats ass what color, nationality, or race they are.
Originally Posted By: Clemdawg


It's not a coincidence that MKL was assassinated only after he migrated his message from racial justice to economic justice (see: Poor People's Campaign). As long as he was the leader of The Coloreds, he was manageable. When he started gathering in poor Whites to his cause, he became a legitimate threat to the status quo.



^^^^ THIS!

Clem is spot on. The Oakland Police didn't really care about the Black Panthers as long as they were kept to their corner of Oakland. However, once Huey and Bobby started getting the white middle class counter culture kids from UC Berkeley riled up and interested in their message THAT'S when the police and FBI got worried and labeled them "the biggest threat to America" and "Terrorists".
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
[quote]
And I am not just speaking about the poorest white folks. I am also speaking about winning over the white working-middle class. There are a ton of votes there.



The candidate HAS to speak to brown and black voters too. Our nation is/has become more beige, especially our cities, but even rural areas. The future of America is even more diverse than it currently is so any candidate who speaks only to one group simply won't win. It may have worked this time, but it won't in the future. These changing demographics will turn Texas blue in our lifetime.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 02:56 PM
Originally Posted By: GMdawg
Quote:
And I am not just speaking about the poorest white folks. I am also speaking about winning over the white working-middle class. There are a ton of votes there.


How about one who worries about the middle class and couldn't give a rats ass what color, nationality, or race they are.


Everytime I hear someone, (usually a democrat politician), mention the middle class, I laugh.

There's no such thing as a/(the) middle class anymore.

I'd probably be right in the middle/(bottom middle) of it, close to 3 sides of it, from what would be considered the poorer end, to what would be considerd the wealthier end

If there was a middle class, as people refer to, it's not as large of a group as people want to think, for one,
and 2nd it's probably the richest people I know, and those people don't realize
at the same time they are richer than the multitudes, and are not in control because they're so tied to the ideas of the super rich.

OK, so, I'd concede there are like 7 levels of middle class, 3/4 of which don't even qualify, economically for what the polliticans would consider as middle class,
because polliticans probably don't understand, they live in a sealed off world.

When I hear a politician speak of the middle class, I think two things.
1. It's a buzz word
2. The politician is clueless.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I am also speaking about winning over the white working-middle class.


There's a large subset of white voters in this country who believe they are victims of due oppression due to "the other", they believe they are repressed because of "the other" taking their jobs, receiving more support, etc.

It'll be hard to get those voters, a large portion of Trump's base, to recognize it's not because of "the other" they are getting put down. This is where Bernie struggles in getting minority support. He struggles at linking his economic policy with systemic racism.

How do you convince someone who is prejudiced towards minorities that systemic racism exists? It's easy to pull out facts, but the GOP prioritizes feelings over facts. Newt Gingrich even admitted this strategy at the last convention when they selected Trump.

I find the people who explore outside their bubble tend to be more elastic in their thought. How do you convince someone who is stuck in their ways?

The economic system in our country and race and linked; it's been designed to stay this way. I understand you don't want to divide, but there will be some people you just won't ever reach.
I am not searching for Utopia. I know that we can't get everyone to agree. I know there will be extremists on both sides.

I think there are more reasonable, open-minded folks out there than not.

I'm also getting the feeling that a some folks who responded didn't actually read the article very closely.
Originally Posted By: GMdawg
Quote:
And I am not just speaking about the poorest white folks. I am also speaking about winning over the white working-middle class. There are a ton of votes there.


How about one who worries about the middle class and couldn't give a rats ass what color, nationality, or race they are.


jfan liked that post, but it makes no sense in regards to what I was saying. I didn't say anything about whether the white middle working class putting undo emphasis on race and nationality.

I was speaking about Democrats to stop ignoring and even alienating that particular group of people. I was talking about trying to target them as a group who can help you win elections and get things changed.

No plan is full-proof and there are no easy answers, but working w/as many folks as possible for a greater good is not a bad thing and it has gotten things changed in the past.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 06:50 PM
First I'll address the "business" portion of the article. Every business is far from the same. Let's face it, many businesses are hiring these illegals to save huge amounts of money on labor. It's in their best interest to keep the illegal immigrant source running smoothly. And let's face it, if it weren't for them hiring those people, the illegal immigration problem wouldn't be that much of a problem.

Other businesses however are either extremely wealthy or simply save more from tax cuts than they may lose in paying labor more. I mean if you own a high tech business or other business that uses zero illegal immigrants, your only upside is the tax cuts. So who business supports is far more about cutting regulations and their bottom line than it is about anything else. And as we all know, the businesses with the biggest wallets hold the most control.

As Clem mentioned, I was raised and taught the very thing you are speaking of here. How if the bottom half of wage earners and wealth holders could only stick together and vote as one, they could control this country. They could help the interests of all working class Americans and make this nation better for those who actually build it.

But that was at a time we only needed to concern ourselves with some of the people in the Republican party. I mean it wasn't the Democrats feeding money to the KKK and White Supremacists. It wasn't the Democrats using their buzz words and saying that there's "good people" on their side. It still isn't.

What has changed IMO is that the Democratic party for the most part seems to be helping them out these days. They are ignoring the very people and causes that brought them to prominence in the first place. They could take a lesson from history. And that history points out another point that Clem was making.

JFK and RFK were in large part responsible for civil rights. They actually worked with MLK to make civil rights a popular idea among white working class Americans. It wasn't until LBJ became president that it actually passed, and he had to work his ass off to get it passed, but without the power from white, Democratic politicians it may have taken decades longer to ever come to pass.

That's not an attempt to take credit away from all of the black leaders and black Americans who paid a horrible price in the fight for equality. It's to point out how people like Kennedy could get the message out to both working Americans and the black community. A politician who could walk and chew gum at the same time. A president who could further the progress of the working people and minorities.

And yes, once it was seen that both JFK and RFK as well as MLK could work together to help all of working class people and minorities, once it was proven they could make those with less hold more power than those who had more, they were all assassinated. This just goes to show how far those who hold the power will go to keep it.

If and when the Democratic party can learn to walk and chew gum at the same time like JFK did, they can once more actually effect change that can help almost everyone. As of now the Democrats can't seem to figure out they are helping Trump more than hurting him. While they don't use the vocal vitriol and a direct message of division, they alienate the very same voters that created their ascension in the first place. The message of us and them should be changed to us and include everyone in their message. For those that have to fight day in and day out to live, those who work their asses off to try to achieve the American dream, we have much more in common when the only real difference is the color of our skin.
Quote:
What has changed IMO is that the Democratic party for the most part seems to be helping them out these days. They are ignoring the very people and causes that brought them to prominence in the first place. They could take a lesson from history. And that history points out another point that Clem was making.


Occupy Wallstreet looked at this very thing. They got written off as a bunch of cooky college kids or bums.

Quote:
JFK and RFK were in large part responsible for civil rights.


All of them, all of them, begrudgingly worked with Dr. King. If they truly would've liked him, Hoover wouldn't have a crazy long file on him. They allowed Hoover to do the ridiculous things he did towards the Civil Rights movement.

Quote:
They are ignoring the very people and causes that brought them to prominence in the first place. They could take a lesson from history. And that history points out another point that Clem was making.


They've played plenty of lip-service to social causes, but walked backwards on economic policy. You can thank Bill Clinton for this; it's called neoliberalism.

Quote:
but without the power from white


I'd argue more power came from Dr. King, Malcolm X, and many of the other unsung heroes. They were going to keep going, and the democrats did it to try and stop the social unrest. If the Dems truly cared, they would've gone further than they did. Many championed The Civil Rights Act of 1965 as the defeat of racism, and many still believe this today.

Quote:
The message of us and them should be changed to us and include everyone in their message


I mean the 99% was a wonderful rallying call, wasn't it?
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 07:38 PM
Yeah, MLK voted it into law. Get real man. MLK brought it the forefront. MLK paid the price in the streets. MLK paid the price with his life. But how many black lawmakers were involved in voting it into law?

It's okay man. You can admit that whites and blacks played a role in making things better for black Americans. You can admit that the Kennedy's helped make it more popular with white Americans.

You can admit that the type of things you said in your last post are exactly the type of responses that cause division and not help in working together. Sometimes people just refuse to learn from history.
Posted By: gage Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 07:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
The other day, I was reading a thread and these cats were talking about Trump got elected because he hosted a TV game show or something like that. I never watched the show, but I disagreed and said that I doubted Trump being on a TV show was why he won the election.


I think I know these cats you spoke of! tongue

I'm reminded of Ice-T's heavy metal project Body Count and the song "No Lives Matter." Skin color is a convenient way to classify economic standing for those in power who wish to exploit poor people.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 07:59 PM
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Yeah, MLK voted it into law. Get real man. MLK brought it the forefront. MLK paid the price in the streets. MLK paid the price with his life. But how many black lawmakers were involved in voting it into law?

It's okay man. You can admit that whites and blacks played a role in making things better for black Americans. You can admit that the Kennedy's helped make it more popular with white Americans.

You can admit that the type of things you said in your last post are exactly the type of responses that cause division and not help in working together. Sometimes people just refuse to learn from history.


Basically, pits message throughout these threads is people who look like me need to suck up to white people or continue to be second class citizens in this country.

Despite this country being built off the backs of my ancestors, pit is saying that we should still show gratitude to whites and still somehow prove that we’re worthy of being in alliance with whites.

Since we weren’t even ALLOWED to have black lawmakers in this first place, it still doesn’t change the fact that yet again, we have to suck the toes of whites people in order to gain equality.

Pit thinks some token white people who helped us meant that the majority of whites were on our side, despite segregation still being popular amongst the majority of whites when the equal rights bill was passed.

This is why I have little hope that anything will change as far as the mindset of white Americans. If us blacks and Latinos aren’t preaching the greatness of our white allies, nothing will change.

White people have the power to change laws all on their own with no help from minorities.

Minorities are forever at the mercy of white people in this country. So sing their praises or nothing will change for my people.

Awesome message pit. Thanks.
I wondered if it would come off like that to you or any other minority. It's how it came off to me.

Pit, I don't think you truly mean "white people need to be the ones to make things better", but Swish is right in his critique. I got the same feel as he did.

White people need to stop trying to fix minority problems. We need to step out of the way.

This is why I love The Squad!
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 08:30 PM
whats crazy is that pit and i has had this convo before, and yet here he goes with it again.

the message a lot of guys think they're sending is not the message being received.

groveling to white moderates is not the solution to this whatsoever.

because thats essentially enforcing the notion that whites are superior.
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 08:38 PM
Because your butthurt angry black man toxic attitude is so much better and so much more productive?

Youre a part of the problem and not the solution.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 08:41 PM
look in the mirror. atleast i dont vote against my own interest.

lol i mean who votes for a guy who wanted to take away your healthcare coverage, then start whining when they try to do exactly that?

you're one of the biggest hypocrites on this board. you're self righteous white woman attitude certainly is just as big of a problem as mine, if not more.

you voted to have your life potentially taken away. thats about as stupid a decision as one can get.
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 08:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
look in the mirror. atleast i dont vote against my own interest.

lol i mean who votes for a guy who wanted to take away your healthcare coverage, then start whining when they try to do exactly that?

you're one of the biggest hypocrites on this board. you're self righteous white woman attitude certainly is just as big of a problem as mine, if not more.

you voted to have your life potentially taken away. thats about as stupid a decision as one can get.


I'm not part of any problem. My life is great, thanks for your concern.

Your attitude is so toxic that nobody can take you seriously other than self loathing white socialists. Thats all you got in your corner.

You wonder why people vote against liberals, its because of people like you.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 08:47 PM
lol right. they voted against liberals because one some random dude on dawgtalkers?

nah, they voted for trump because of people like you: clueless and gullible.

i rather have the self loathing white socialist on my side than the klan and nazis, which you most certainly seem to be fine with.

lol, yea, would MUCH rather have the white guys in america who are on my side than alex jones, roy moore and david duke.

*weirdo pedo white guy starts following around eve in the mall*

eve: yea, thats the kind of people i want to vote for!
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 08:51 PM
Youre not understanding, the unhinged liberal lunacy is what makes people vote against you.

The toxic angry black man attitude combined with unhinged tds makes your credibility circle the bowl.

Nobody can take you seriously. Other than the self loathers.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 08:53 PM
what was that? sorry, i dont understand the terminally ill. somebody translate the hospice language for me.
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 08:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
what was that? sorry, i dont understand the terminally ill. somebody translate the hospice language for me.


Whatever youre on, I suggest you not buy that strain again.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:06 PM
lol wow that was pathetically lame. go to bed.
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:09 PM
No. I'm watching the AU Game. After that I have chores.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:13 PM
any good? im too bust getting wrecked in call of duty by some 10 year olds.
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:16 PM
Its only good if youre a soccer fan. Because both teams are good, but neither has scored yet and its after halftime. So, the casual fan would be bored.

Its on ESPN if you need a break from COD and 10 year olds lol.
This is such a jarring exchange to read.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:19 PM
yea im bout to turn it on cause this kid just claimed he banged my mom and im legit upset. burns a lot more than any racist statement made to me in life.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:20 PM
these are our normal exchanges.

trash talk followed by "yo whats up"
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:24 PM
Keep an eye on that kid around your wife lol.

I have to tell you, I hit metal debris in the road on Friday, and it trashed my tire and my wheel. I have donut now. I was pissed.

But I guess its a blessing in disguise because the dealership has to replace it all for free. And my wheel already had curb rash. So, I cant complain about getting a new one.
Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist


White people need to stop trying to fix minority problems. We need to step out of the way.



Not just step out of the way...we need to let POC, women and LGBTQ+ communities speak AND we need to listen. White people (in particular, white cis men) have done the talking for far too long. It's now time to listen to others.
Both of you speed demons should go drive in Lima, Peru.

Lanes and turn signals are just a suggestion not a requirement. Also, they love the horn down here.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:29 PM
shotty construction or just some junk in the road?

damn man your dealership is legit then. is it a jag dealership or another spot?

oh, and since you've had it for a while now, still love it?
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:29 PM
Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
Both of you speed demons should go drive in Lima, Peru.

Lanes and turn signals are just a suggestion not a requirement. Also, they love the horn down here.


i drive a bmw. turn signals were never a requirement.
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
shotty construction or just some junk in the road?

damn man your dealership is legit then. is it a jag dealership or another spot?

oh, and since you've had it for a while now, still love it?


It looked like a manhole cover that was loose and jutting up in the road. Giant divit out of my wheel.

Yeah the Jag Dealership. This is the third tire and first wheel to be replaced in a year and a half.

300 dollar tire
1800 dollar wheel

I still love the car, but I'm not gonna keep it once the road hazard ins is done, if I cant renew it. I have that ins for 5 years. When I bought the car, they extremely firmly insisted I get that ins, and now I can see why.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:38 PM
Atleast you had that option. No hazard insurance for us.

I FINALLY have an all season option for my ride. It was always summer or winter tires. So I’ve had to buy two different sets of tires for the weather, and then I’ve been through 3 full sets of summers in 2 years because run flats do NOT last long.

And how in gods name did Martinez miss that kick?
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:43 PM
Wow, I'm kinda shocked they didnt give you that option! I thought that was a standard thing they offer when you buy a car.

Did you not buy it from the dealership?

Their goalie is really good. That's why he missed. He was trying to get the goalie to commit to a direction so he could pick an angle. Only the goalie wasnt gonna fall for that.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:48 PM
If I would’ve bought it from a bimmer dealership yea. But I picked the car up off a repo from some noname dealership. The car still had its original factory warranty and service plan though so that was a plus. But doesn’t cover wear and tear items.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 09:57 PM
Jesus y’all are good
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 10:03 PM
Oh, so the dealership wont let you purchase ins anyways? That sucks.

I'm gonna ask the Jag people tomorrow if they will sell me ins after the current ins runs out.

The team did good. Very happy for Pity, because he was the big aquisition this year and has struggled all year. Josef got his goal too.

Ok. I'm off to reddit land.
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 10:07 PM
I think ins companies also offer road hazard ins, but I could be wrong.

Its just a must have here, because there is a tremendous amount of road construction going on. And I always get a nail.
Thanks, y'all.
Posted By: JulesDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 10:50 PM
I warned ya. wink
I was really hoping this thread would lead to a good conversation where we could have a civil debate. I thought the original article painted that picture, but it digressed into the usual insults, mocking of others, changing the subject, etc that other threads do.

It's disappointing. I wasn't asking anyone to agree. I just wanted some intelligent conversation that focused on trying to find solutions instead of assigning blame.

Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 11:03 PM
Well, this topic has been discussed ad nauseum. Making a new thread about it doesnt really change that.

So, we had our fun. tongue
No Eve, we haven't discussed that topic ad nauseum. What has been discussed ad nauseum is one side bashing the other side w/leaky arguments that are based more on dislike, ignorance, and hate than intelligence, logic, and fairness.

But folks like you, Swish, Rocket, and PDX can take solace in hijacking the thread and making it worthless. Great job. You should be proud of yourselves because when you don't like the message................SHOUT IT DOWN!!!!
Yes, you are correct.

All they needed to do to inspire unity was make a list of Progressive successes around the country.

San Francisco
Los Angeles
Seattle
Baltimore
Philadelphia
DC
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/21/19 11:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
No Eve, we haven't discussed that topic ad nauseum. What has been discussed ad nauseum is one side bashing the other side w/leaky arguments that are based more on dislike, ignorance, and hate than intelligence, logic, and fairness.

But folks like you, Swish, Rocket, and PDX can take solace in hijacking the thread and making it worthless. Great job. You should be proud of yourselves because when you don't like the message................SHOUT IT DOWN!!!!


Its literally the same 10 people in every thread with the same 10 opinions....for YEARS.

I have given my opinion about this many times, and I give up why bother.

Honestly cars and soccer are way more interesting than beating a dead horse.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog


But folks like you, Swish, Rocket, and PDX can take solace in hijacking the thread and making it worthless. Great job. You should be proud of yourselves because when you don't like the message................SHOUT IT DOWN!!!!


What? Not sure where this came from. Are you saying that nobody but yourself can voice an opinion? That's weird, because earlier you complained that you wanted people to discuss. I have done exactly that. I read, I listen, I discuss. I may disagree at times with what is said, but nowhere in any of my posts did I rag on anybody else nor did I get into altercations or threaten to fight or stomp my feet in a tantrum. Nor did I "hijack a thread".

So, yeah....totally unsure where this came from.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
No Eve, we haven't discussed that topic ad nauseum. What has been discussed ad nauseum is one side bashing the other side w/leaky arguments that are based more on dislike, ignorance, and hate than intelligence, logic, and fairness.


2011-2016 were some phenomenal years of high discourse here. We talked about this stuff a lot. We learned a lot from each other, and maybe sometimes differing opinions said "hey, you've got a point."

Since then, well...it's been documented as to what's occurred.

I'll talk silly discussion rather than a bunch of chain email bullet points, strawmans, "my opinions mean more than facts" type arguments, or things similar. Good conversations happen through private message these days.
Posted By: jfanent Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 02:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Originally Posted By: GMdawg
Quote:
And I am not just speaking about the poorest white folks. I am also speaking about winning over the white working-middle class. There are a ton of votes there.


How about one who worries about the middle class and couldn't give a rats ass what color, nationality, or race they are.


jfan liked that post, but it makes no sense in regards to what I was saying. I didn't say anything about whether the white middle working class putting undo emphasis on race and nationality.

I was speaking about Democrats to stop ignoring and even alienating that particular group of people. I was talking about trying to target them as a group who can help you win elections and get things changed.

No plan is full-proof and there are no easy answers, but working w/as many folks as possible for a greater good is not a bad thing and it has gotten things changed in the past.


I liked that post because it made sense to me and I look up to GM. I honestly didn't delve any deeper than that, nor read many of the posts before that one.
Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
No Eve, we haven't discussed that topic ad nauseum. What has been discussed ad nauseum is one side bashing the other side w/leaky arguments that are based more on dislike, ignorance, and hate than intelligence, logic, and fairness.


2011-2016 were some phenomenal years of high discourse here. We talked about this stuff a lot. We learned a lot from each other, and maybe sometimes differing opinions said "hey, you've got a point."

Since then, well...it's been documented as to what's occurred.

I'll talk silly discussion rather than a bunch of chain email bullet points, strawmans, "my opinions mean more than facts" type arguments, or things similar. Good conversations happen through private message these days.


The nation divided a lot w/Bush Jr's election. We had Florida CHADS to defeat Gore (after news outlets announced Gore as winner), which also lead to his illegal war w/Iraq.

However, in 2016 that divide has grown much bigger with video of Trump bragging about sexaul assault, yet he still get elected and people still attempt to defend him. And, hate groups now have somebody in the WH that continues to make them feel validated.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 10:58 AM
Quote:
Everytime I hear someone, (usually a democrat politician), mention the middle class, I laugh.

There's no such thing as a/(the) middle class anymore.


I beg to differ with you Sir. just look around we are everywhere.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 11:03 AM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Originally Posted By: GMdawg
Quote:
And I am not just speaking about the poorest white folks. I am also speaking about winning over the white working-middle class. There are a ton of votes there.


How about one who worries about the middle class and couldn't give a rats ass what color, nationality, or race they are.


jfan liked that post, but it makes no sense in regards to what I was saying. I didn't say anything about whether the white middle working class putting undo emphasis on race and nationality.

I was speaking about Democrats to stop ignoring and even alienating that particular group of people. I was talking about trying to target them as a group who can help you win elections and get things changed.

No plan is full-proof and there are no easy answers, but working w/as many folks as possible for a greater good is not a bad thing and it has gotten things changed in the past.


I agree that working with as many folks as possible for the greater good is not a bad thing and it has gotten things changed before. That's why I include ALL middle class not just whites.
Quote:


What? Not sure where this came from. Are you saying that nobody but yourself can voice an opinion?


I probably should not have included you in that group. And no, I am not saying I am the only one allowed to voice an opinion. I will say I was highly agitated after reading the new posts when I logged on last night. I was actually eager to read the discussion and I started reading crap about wheels on a car.

I do think that people purposely tried to derail the thread. It's pretty obvious. I also think that some refused to really address what was being said in the article and wanted to turn this into another "us against them" discussion.

I just read on another post that this was a strawman argument or something like that, but I think that is completely false and yet another attempt to limit actual rational conversation.

I think it's far from a strawman argument when you have leaders of well-respected minority organizations and prominent Democratic candidates like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders talking about the issue. In fact, I think they add credibility to the argument.
Posted By: fishtheice Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 01:24 PM

From Haim Saban:

Haim Saban, a billionaire media mogul and mega-donor to the Democrat Party, eviscerated 2020 White House contender Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) in a recent interview, slamming him as a “Communist” and “disaster zone.”

Speaking to the Hollywood Reporter, Saban praised the crowded field of Democrat primary candidates but signaled out Sanders as the sole contender he strongly dislikes, citing his frequent attacks on the “billionaire class.”

“I profoundly dislike Bernie Sanders, and you can write it. I don’t give a hoot. He’s a Communist under the cover of being a socialist. He thinks that every billionaire is a crook,” Saban lamented.” He calls us ‘the billionaire class.’ And he attacks us indiscriminately. ‘It’s the billionaire class, the bad guys.’ This is how communists think. So, 22 are great. One is a disaster zone.”
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Quote:


What? Not sure where this came from. Are you saying that nobody but yourself can voice an opinion?


I probably should not have included you in that group. And no, I am not saying I am the only one allowed to voice an opinion. I will say I was highly agitated after reading the new posts when I logged on last night. I was actually eager to read the discussion and I started reading crap about wheels on a car.

I do think that people purposely tried to derail the thread. It's pretty obvious. I also think that some refused to really address what was being said in the article and wanted to turn this into another "us against them" discussion.

I just read on another post that this was a strawman argument or something like that, but I think that is completely false and yet another attempt to limit actual rational conversation.

I think it's far from a strawman argument when you have leaders of well-respected minority organizations and prominent Democratic candidates like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders talking about the issue. In fact, I think they add credibility to the argument.


Yeah, I don't speak for the others, but I don't appreciate the accusation as there is no basis for it. I walked away from this group last season because I realized it wasn't worth having the digital drama in my life.

Upon returning I said to myself I'm not going to engage in tit for tat arguments. I stayed out of this section for months. I have started replies and then deleted them saying to myself "it's not worth it". I will, however, and I have, disagreed at times....but I'm not going to hurl insults at those who I am politically opposed to. You and I have had our moments, but ask yourself when the last time we went at it? Well before the last season, dude.

This is a football forum....I come in here first and foremost to read threads on the Browns as I like a lot of people's take and input on things. I like reading the x's and o's. But, I readily admit that other than growing up in Cleveland and the Browns I really don't have a lot in common with many folks in here. In this particular section there are maybe half a dozen posters that I am usually in agreement with. I am politically and socially far more left than most. Call me a Socialist, call me a Commie, call me an anarchist. Whatever. But, I will still read and listen to any voice of reason. I will skim or skip completely if that voice is outrageous, intolerant, jingoistic or xenophobic. I will also occasionally comment when I think I have something that may be worth sharing or adding. But, I won't engage in insults or digital flame wars. That's one of the reasons why I already left a few threads that I was contributing in.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 02:25 PM
How about if I just call you PDX
Originally Posted By: GMdawg
How about if I just call you PDX


I'm still a bit creeped out by your Cryptkeeper FaceApp results. smile
Posted By: GMdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 03:07 PM
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 04:05 PM
Quote:
Basically, pits message throughout these threads is people who look like me need to suck up to white people or continue to be second class citizens in this country.

Despite this country being built off the backs of my ancestors, pit is saying that we should still show gratitude to whites and still somehow prove that we’re worthy of being in alliance with whites.

Since we weren’t even ALLOWED to have black lawmakers in this first place, it still doesn’t change the fact that yet again, we have to suck the toes of whites people in order to gain equality.

Pit thinks some token white people who helped us meant that the majority of whites were on our side, despite segregation still being popular amongst the majority of whites when the equal rights bill was passed.

This is why I have little hope that anything will change as far as the mindset of white Americans. If us blacks and Latinos aren’t preaching the greatness of our white allies, nothing will change.

White people have the power to change laws all on their own with no help from minorities.

Minorities are forever at the mercy of white people in this country. So sing their praises or nothing will change for my people.

Awesome message pit. Thanks.

There are a lot of white people who want to be on your side and rants like this don't help... I don't think anybody expects you to suck up and be grateful and suck toes or whatever other BS analogies you used.

You want to attract more white support, stop referring to "white people" as if they are all the same.. hint: we don't like it any more than you do because NOBODY wants to feel lumped in with the worst element of their race and there are some crappy arse white people..

Second, learn to accept that some white people who want social justice and economic reform DO NOT agree with a lot of the other trash that democrats throw out there. So if it gets set up as an all or nothing decision (as it has been for decades) understand that you are going to lose potential allies in the voting..

Third, you can like it or not, you NEED white votes to win, you need white voices for change, you need white politicians with influence to be on your side... and you need a coalition to make that happen, you need cooperating partners that the average white-middle class voter or rural poor voter can relate to...
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 04:21 PM
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN


Third, you can like it or not, you NEED white votes to win, you need white voices for change, you need white politicians with influence to be on your side... and you need a coalition to make that happen, you need cooperating partners that the average white-middle class voter or rural poor voter can relate to...


this last paragraph just contradicted everything you just finished saying, while simultaneously enforcing my very post you just claimed was a rant.

you don't NEED us to advance your agenda, but we NEED you in order to advance ours.

once again, i got dudes throwing out this "rants like this doesnt help" as if somehow my rant is keeping you from doing the right thing. what a p1ss poor excuse.
I got my shoes off.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 04:26 PM
was it difficult?
Getting them back on is the hard part.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 04:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish

Basically, pits message throughout these threads is people who look like me need to suck up to white people or continue to be second class citizens in this country.


Wow! Talk about missing the mark by a mile. Since when did working together equal sucking up? You think you can accomplish your goals with 13% of the population? Do you have any idea how many white people it took voting for Obama to get him elected?

Quote:
Despite this country being built off the backs of my ancestors, pit is saying that we should still show gratitude to whites and still somehow prove that we’re worthy of being in alliance with whites.


Sometimes I think you brain just refuses to function. Are you too blind to see that without the Kennedy's in the White House to this day the civil rights amendment may still not be law? Your math skills aren't very good are they?

Quote:
Since we weren’t even ALLOWED to have black lawmakers in this first place, it still doesn’t change the fact that yet again, we have to suck the toes of whites people in order to gain equality.


You still can't figure out that you really can't accomplish anything with having only 13% of the population without working with others can you? How do you balance a checkbook?

Quote:
Pit thinks some token white people who helped us meant that the majority of whites were on our side, despite segregation still being popular amongst the majority of whites when the equal rights bill was passed.


Now you're resorting to telling blatant lies like a hard core Trumpian. I didn't say the majority of white people agreed with it. What I did say is that there were enough white people that supported it that it got passed by a bunch of white law makers. Less than 11% of the population was black in the mid 1960's. Yeah, that pesky math thing again.

Quote:
This is why I have little hope that anything will change as far as the mindset of white Americans. If us blacks and Latinos aren’t preaching the greatness of our white allies, nothing will change.


yeah, when you kick dirt in the face of those who are willing to help further your cause, it makes it tough. This is what happens when people want to work together to help accomplish your goals. You treat them like $#!+. No wonder progress has been slow.

Quote:
White people have the power to change laws all on their own with no help from minorities.

Minorities are forever at the mercy of white people in this country. So sing their praises or nothing will change for my people.

Awesome message pit. Thanks.


You use that fuzzy math and can't seem to admit that without a lot of white people you wouldn't have civil rights. Without a lot of white people there would have been no president Obama.

You know, you sound a lot like the racists on the right. You make every white man sound the same. You know, just like some of them do about every black man. You're really no different.
Wow!

I'm white and you guys are offending me!

Don't Tread on Ye.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 04:37 PM
Quote:
this last paragraph just contradicted everything you just finished saying,

I don't see it that way.

Quote:
while simultaneously enforcing my very post you just claimed was a rant.

I never said your post was wrong... it's rant because of its tone not because of its accuracy.

Quote:
once again, i got dudes throwing out this "rants like this doesnt help" as if somehow my rant is keeping you from doing the right thing. what a p1ss poor excuse.

This isn't about me...

take it for what it's worth, the angry black man is not an appealing look for attracting white support. No matter how justified you think it is... MLK was clearly angry in many of his speeches and his protests, but what drew his support from the white community at the time was his optimism and his non-violent approach in a time of violence....
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 04:40 PM
He can't seem to comprehend the whole 13% thig DC.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 04:45 PM
thats fine if you view me as the same as the opposition, but please stop pretending to be some enlightened dude who really knows how to fix it because you don't.

i mean all that crap you just stated means a whole lot of nothing. again, we somehow have to be nice and kind to you guys, because if not, it makes you NOT want to do the right thing.

its like saying that sense some gay people are mean to me, its keeping me from doing the right thing and supporting/voting for candidates who make sure those same gay people have equal rights.

its like saying because some women ticked me off and weren't nice and PC with me, somehow thats gonna force me to not support the feminist movement and make sure they are treated equally.

its about as soft as one can get.

im not talking about the minority of white people. reading my other post should've cleared that up, but that 39th ranked Tennessee education shouldnt come as a surprise that you cant comprehend my post well.

im talking about the flip flopping white mods who really dont do much to advance the agenda of equality.

i mean its way easier to actually discuss these issues with the likes of Diam and TB than it is the likes of you and Vers. how sad is that? why? because they aren't busy playing "both sides" BS that literally doesnt work.

like....ever. you keep talking about JFK, but forgot he got shot. yall will bring up MLK, but forget that he got shot.

if those two dudes arent assassinated, i wonder what our country would be like right now as far as legislation. cause the argument could most certainly be made that the civil rights act doesnt get passed without those two events happening.

ya know, from the so called white people we gotta suck up to.

you keep saying without white people we wouldnt have civil rights.

how come you wont say that without white people, we wouldnt have been in a place to fight for civil rights to begin with?

somehow history starts with "white people helped us", but yet doesnt start with "white people brought us here to begin with".

lol what a joke your posting is lately.

"without white people we dont have civil rights". yea, well without white people we dont have the klan, either. but dont let that get in the way of your ridiculous posting.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 04:45 PM
right, it was appealing so much to whites that they shot him.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 04:54 PM
First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

- MLK
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 04:55 PM
"......that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”

good lord that describes atleast 4 dudes just on this board alone.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 05:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
right, it was appealing so much to whites that they shot him.

That is correct. If it wasn't appealing to whites in larger numbers, he would have comfortably lived out his life and nobody would have feared him.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 05:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
thats fine if you view me as the same as the opposition, but please stop pretending to be some enlightened dude who really knows how to fix it because you don't.


What you seem to be saying is that someone like me can't support you helping the problem. See, that what happens when you see things that aren't there. I'm 100% sure I don't know how to fix it. But I also know I want to support the people who can. I know that must sound like a terrible thing to you.

Quote:
i mean all that crap you just stated means a whole lot of nothing. again, we somehow have to be nice and kind to you guys, because if not, it makes you NOT want to do the right thing.


That little childhood rant you went on won't make me change who I'm voting for. It will take a lot more than that to make me a Trumpian. And nobody asked you to be nice and kind. All it was is try to get you to do some basic math and realize you can't do it on your own.

Quote:
its like saying that sense some gay people are mean to me, its keeping me from doing the right thing and supporting/voting for candidates who make sure those same gay people have equal rights.


No, I'm saying you can't spit on people and expect them to "understand" what it is you truly want to change because they'll tend not to listen. But you won't change my vote. I'm still going to vote the way I vote despite your "angry black man rant" geared towards me. I'm used to it any time you can't figure out that 13% thing and act like you're on some high horse.

Quote:
its like saying because some women ticked me off and weren't nice and PC with me, somehow thats gonna force me to not support the feminist movement and make sure they are treated equally.

its about as soft as one can get.

im not talking about the minority of white people. reading my other post should've cleared that up, but that 39th ranked Tennessee education shouldnt come as a surprise that you cant comprehend my post well.


I grew up in Ohio. A SWING and a miss!

Quote:
im talking about the flip flopping white mods who really dont do much to advance the agenda of equality.

i mean its way easier to actually discuss these issues with the likes of Diam and TB than it is the likes of you and Vers. how sad is that? why? because they aren't busy playing "both sides" BS that literally doesnt work.


Yeah, I play both sides, right. I try to say why I think someone like Bernie isn't electable. Don't you just hate it when a white guy wants the Democrats to win the election? So you think because I feel a candidate that screams "free everything!" can't get elected, that's a bad thing?

Quote:
like....ever. you keep talking about JFK, but forgot he got shot. yall will bring up MLK, but forget that he got shot.


This is why I know you went on a rant without even looking at half of what I posted. I brought up that very issue. I actually said that the assassinations of MLK, JFK and RFK was an example of just how far the people who hold the power will go to keep it. But that's okay, just ignore that....

Quote:
if those two dudes arent assassinated, i wonder what our country would be like right now as far as legislation. cause the argument could most certainly be made that the civil rights act doesnt get passed without those two events happening.


An argument could also be made that far more would have been accomplished had those events not have happened. Sadly we'll never know.

Quote:
ya know, from the so called white people we gotta suck up to.

you keep saying without white people we wouldnt have civil rights.

how come you wont say that without white people, we wouldnt have been in a place to fight for civil rights to begin with?

somehow history starts with "white people helped us", but yet doesnt start with "white people brought us here to begin with".

lol what a joke your posting is lately.


"without white people we dont have civil rights". yea, well without white people we dont have the klan, either. but dont let that get in the way of your ridiculous posting.


That's pretty funny coming from you. For years on this very board I've blamed white people for slavery, for the the genocide of native Americans. For Jim Crow laws and the position every minority in this country has been forced to endure. But suddenly, in "rant mode", you wish to dismiss all of that.

Well good luck with your 13% accomplishing your goals without people like me because the math don't lie. Luckily I won't change who i am because of your "angry black man" rant.

But this time, when you came around to figuring out we're actually on the same side? Save your message of apology to me like usual. I've heard that BS enough now.
MLK spoke of Justice and Common Ground.

We don't see anyone talking that way these days.

That is what is needed.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 05:18 PM
lol apologize for what? its clear we dont view this the same AT ALL. everything i said to you just now i ABSOLUTELY mean it.

take that flip flopping nonsense somewhere else. i rather talk to people who are actually capable of taking a position on something, instead of the "both sides" lets all hold hands BS.

things change by those who are willing to take it, those willing to fight for it. not the people who cant make a decision and is constantly searching for the non existent compromise.

man you centrist are a huge waste of time in this country.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 05:19 PM
liberals: cops need to stop shooting unarmed black people!

conservatives: people need to respect the law!

Pit and DC: well....ummm...i think....well, why dont we just have a quota for the # of black people allowed to be shot by cops and make sure we add a few more minorities to the force. see, both sides win!

but wait, i dunno...umm... maybe this...uh uh uh uh
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 05:22 PM
Quote:
liberals: cops need to stop shooting unarmed black people!

conservatives: people need to respect the law!

DC: Both of those things can and should be true.
40: Black people need to stop jumping around and reaching when a Cop has told you to freeze and show me your hands.

Unarmed white people die that way too.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 05:29 PM
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
40: Black people need to stop jumping around and reaching when a Cop has told you to freeze and show me your hands.

Unarmed white people die that way too.

This is a losing position.. walking/running away from a busted tail light can get a black person shot... a white person can walk out holding the bloody knife and be negotiated with for 10 minutes to please put it down and step away...
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
40: Black people need to stop jumping around and reaching when a Cop has told you to freeze and show me your hands.

Unarmed white people die that way too.

This is a losing position.. walking/running away from a busted tail light can get a black person shot... a white person can walk out holding the bloody knife and be negotiated with for 10 minutes to please put it down and step away...


Yes, if you look at the issue by 3 out of 100.
But I don't.
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
This is a losing position.. walking/running away from a busted tail light can get a black person shot... a white person can walk out holding the bloody knife and be negotiated with for 10 minutes to please put it down and step away...


Sure seems to be the case............
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
Pit and DC: well....ummm...i think....well, why dont we just have a quota for the # of black people allowed to be shot by cops and make sure we add a few more minorities to the force. see, both sides win!

but wait, i dunno...umm... maybe this...uh uh uh uh


And there you go with another lie.

You know, I've spent years on this board standing up against police brutality. I've spent years saying there are good cops and bad cops and they need to get the bad cops out of there. That cops who don't spill the beans on bad cops aren't good cops either.

And you sit here and lie.

I've sat here and took up the cause for equality for all races. For every sexual orientation. Against the mass incarceration of people of color. For a higher standard of education in urban areas.

And you have nothing to do but tell lies and make up BS about a person who has mainly been on your side all along.

What a sad little man.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:09 PM
What was hat? Sorry I don’t speak centrist.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:11 PM
You don't speak anything but hate lately. You are the leftist version of Trump.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:12 PM
yes i am, because i rather be on that side than the side of racist, sexist, and people who are homophobic.
Originally Posted By: Swish
What was hat?



You want a MAGA hat?
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:14 PM
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: Swish
What was hat?



You want a MAGA hat?


hell yea i want a maga hat

My
Attorney
Got
Arrested
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
yes i am, because i rather be on that side than the side of racist, sexist, and people who are homophobic.


So mimicking the thing you claim to hate makes you proud. Even though I knew that before you posted it.

If anyone actually took you seriously you would certainly help the Democrats lose the election.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:19 PM
says the guy who didnt even vote for either candidate in the 2016 election.

thats whats so funny about all of this. you didnt even do your part, yet you feel the need to lecture ANYBODY, maga hatter or not, on anything.

news flash: nobody takes you seriously either. hard to do so when you can't even show up in crunch time.

atleast i actually show up.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:20 PM
And where did your tactics get you then? Some people never learn from their mistakes.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:27 PM
hell atleast it got me a participation trophy.

you didn't even get that. you stayed in your room and whined.
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:32 PM
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: Swish
What was hat?



You want a MAGA hat?


You should keep it... it hides your lobotomy scar.
Originally Posted By: Clemdawg
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: Swish
What was hat?



You want a MAGA hat?


You should keep it... it hides your lobotomy scar.


I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 06:53 PM
I've never been a whiner like what I've seen from you on this board today.

You know, I still have faith that maybe some day you will grow up. Some day maybe you will understand that trying to create an enemy out of people who agree with 90% of what you say is no way to achieve the things you wish to accomplish.

But today is proof you have a long way to go.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 07:21 PM
??? lol please, i want the full 100%, anything less is flip flopping!!!!
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 07:24 PM
I forgive you.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 07:59 PM
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
40: Black people need to stop jumping around and reaching when a Cop has told you to freeze and show me your hands.

Unarmed white people die that way too.

This is a losing position.. walking/running away from a busted tail light can get a black person shot... a white person can walk out holding the bloody knife and be negotiated with for 10 minutes to please put it down and step away...


Yes, if you look at the issue by 3 out of 100.
But I don't.

So as long as 97% of the black people who are stopped for minor traffic violations or selling loose cigarettes on the corner live to tell about it, that's successful in your book?
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
40: Black people need to stop jumping around and reaching when a Cop has told you to freeze and show me your hands.

Unarmed white people die that way too.

This is a losing position.. walking/running away from a busted tail light can get a black person shot... a white person can walk out holding the bloody knife and be negotiated with for 10 minutes to please put it down and step away...


Yes, if you look at the issue by 3 out of 100.
But I don't.

So as long as 97% of the black people who are stopped for minor traffic violations or selling loose cigarettes on the corner live to tell about it, that's successful in your book?


Of course not! They are working to improve the problem.
That is why they are now issuing Tasers.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 08:08 PM
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
40: Black people need to stop jumping around and reaching when a Cop has told you to freeze and show me your hands.

Unarmed white people die that way too.

This is a losing position.. walking/running away from a busted tail light can get a black person shot... a white person can walk out holding the bloody knife and be negotiated with for 10 minutes to please put it down and step away...


Yes, if you look at the issue by 3 out of 100.
But I don't.

So as long as 97% of the black people who are stopped for minor traffic violations or selling loose cigarettes on the corner live to tell about it, that's successful in your book?


Of course not! They are working to improve the problem.
That is why they are now issuing Tasers.

Cool. That should help. We need non-lethal ways to take down people who haven't really done anything wrong.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 08:16 PM
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
40: Black people need to stop jumping around and reaching when a Cop has told you to freeze and show me your hands.

Unarmed white people die that way too.

This is a losing position.. walking/running away from a busted tail light can get a black person shot... a white person can walk out holding the bloody knife and be negotiated with for 10 minutes to please put it down and step away...


Yes, if you look at the issue by 3 out of 100.
But I don't.

So as long as 97% of the black people who are stopped for minor traffic violations or selling loose cigarettes on the corner live to tell about it, that's successful in your book?


Of course not! They are working to improve the problem.
That is why they are now issuing Tasers.

Cool. That should help. We need non-lethal ways to take down people who haven't really done anything wrong.


Tasers and Guns aren't generally used to take down law abiding people or people who follow the officers directions. They are used on people who threaten the officer, whether actual or perceived.

Stop making the Police guess if you are a threat or not!
Too many Cops are going home in bags these days by guessing wrong.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 08:20 PM
Ah, so now it's gone from criminals to people who "don't follow instructions".

The bar keeps getting lower.
Both. READ!
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 08:29 PM
Quote:
Tasers and Guns aren't generally used to take down law abiding people or people who follow the officers directions. They are used on people who threaten the officer, whether actual or perceived.

Stop making the Police guess if you are a threat or not!
Too many Cops are going home in bags these days by guessing wrong.

The stats are against you... I appreciate you defending the cops, I have nothing but respect for good cops trying to do a good job..

but 30% of blacks killed by cops were unarmed... less than 30% were suspected of a violent crime or presumed to be armed... and that isn't even looking into the totally disproportionate number of blacks killed by cops based on population, based on interactions with the police.. based on anything..
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Quote:
Tasers and Guns aren't generally used to take down law abiding people or people who follow the officers directions. They are used on people who threaten the officer, whether actual or perceived.

Stop making the Police guess if you are a threat or not!
Too many Cops are going home in bags these days by guessing wrong.

The stats are against you... I appreciate you defending the cops, I have nothing but respect for good cops trying to do a good job..

but 30% of blacks killed by cops were unarmed... less than 30% were suspected of a violent crime or presumed to be armed... and that isn't even looking into the totally disproportionate number of blacks killed by cops based on population, based on interactions with the police.. based on anything..



So you praise Cops with one side of your mouth and condemn them with the other for assassinating Blacks. Shame.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 08:36 PM
Obtuse is your specialty. Comprehension? Not so much.
DC said this was a losing argument and he was right because you just lost.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 08:41 PM
Quote:
So you praise Cops with one side of your mouth and condemn them with the other for assassinating Blacks. Shame.

If I want to praise some cops, must I praise them all? I praise the good ones, I condemn the bad ones... the ones that need to change though are the good ones that won't speak up about the bad ones... Refer to the article about the ones lying to protect their fellow cop who shot a black man...

My guess is that those within the police ranks, even the ones who try hard to do their job fairly each and every day... they are the ones who know who the bad ones are, the ones who abuse their power, the ones who play on the edge and are most likely to cross the line... they need to speak up. Until they do, the problem with the bad ones can only get so much better. There seems to be this "honor code" among cops that causes them to protect their own, even at the expense and reputation of the profession as a whole.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/22/19 08:44 PM
It's an all or nothing proposition with people like 40cent. You can't say there are good and bad.
Well it is good to see you clarifying your previous post.

Would have been better to do that originally.
j/c:

Just look at the number of posts that have absolutely NOTHING to do w/the OP. It's the same old BS that you guys always pull. Hate the other side. Name calling. Lies.

Freaking sickening.
blush
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 12:47 AM
It’s funny cause his threads never fail to go sideways fast. The guy whose constantly trying to blame both sides and talk about civil debates can never seem to get the following he so desires.

An inherent problem amongst beta males.
I deleted it all. Neither of you are worth the time. I do not allow people who w/hateful souls into my everyday life and I need to learn to shun the hateful souls on this board.
blush
Posted By: jfanent Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 01:01 AM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I need to learn to shun the hateful souls on this board.


Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 01:04 AM
You respond to us quite often for us to not be worth your time.
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 01:16 AM
Quote:
So you praise Cops with one side of your mouth and condemn them with the other for assassinating Blacks. Shame.



I want to go back and expound on some of the key points of the original article. These quotes are from leaders of minority organizations and Democratic presidential candidates.

Quote:
But can Democratic politicians do that in a way that wins new converts, particularly among the white working class whose votes might decide the 2020 election in the key battleground states of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania? Is there a way for Democrats to talk about systemic racism in a way that actually wins over white voters rather than alienating them? Robinson was clear-eyed about the challenge. “People could come to hate Trump and not love our side in return,” he said.


Robinson and other progressive leaders who spoke to Yahoo News echoed a consistent message. The way to make racial justice a political winner, they said, is to combine it with a populist message aimed at convincing working-class whites that they’ve been distracted by the politics of race while wealthy elites take advantage of middle class and poor people of all races and ethnicities.

The Rev. Greg Holston, the leader of the Philadelphia interfaith group Power, spoke at Netroots after Robinson and denounced what he called an “unholy alliance between the white elite and the white working class.”

“We cannot win … unless we build a real black and Latino and working-class white-folk coalition that can stand together,” he said.



Quote:

Immigration offers one example. The progressive message is that the business community pushed the U.S. government to take a lax enforcement approach to border security for decades because it provided them with cheap labor from South and Central America. Immigrants had no leverage to organize themselves to demand higher wages or better working conditions.

And now those same business leaders are backing Republican candidates like Trump, who pass huge tax cuts for corporations while demonizing immigrants. Meanwhile, working-class whites were also victimized by globalization and outsourcing. “The injustice of companies moving their businesses overseas, not paying taxes, and depriving the white working class of benefits and income is also an unrighteous and unjust act,” Holston, the Philadelphia preacher, told Yahoo News.



Quote:
That, however, is exactly the message that Sanders and Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., are taking on the campaign trail.

“The rules are rigged because the rich and powerful have bought and paid for too many politicians. And if we dare to ask questions, they will try to divide us: pit white working people against black and brown working people so they won’t band together and demand real change,” Warren said in a commencement speech last December at Morgan State, a historically black university.


These prominent folks realize what is at stake and the importance of cooperation rather than extending the divide. They understand that it's a team effort to win rather than "give me everything I want and screw the other side. The former is the ploy of the intelligent and reasonable. The latter are the demands of the childish and hateful.

This isn't about being "liked." It's about winning a damn election where you try and work collaboratively rather than selfishly. It's about respect. Don't ask people to see things your way while you endlessly mock them and mimic the racists on the other side. That's beyond ignorant.

Some of us are more intelligent than that. We understand that reason is a good thing. We understand that not categorizing entire groups of people is a good thing. We understand that not taking advantage of one group of people so another can profit is a good thing. We understand that compromise is not the action of the weak, but a tool that can help the majority prosper.

There are many, many people w/the same mindset as Warren, the minority leaders, and myself who feel the same damn way. We are strong. We will persevere. We will win the war against hate and bias. And if we have to run your hateful asses over...............so be it!
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 01:20 AM
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Well it is good to see you clarifying your previous post.

Would have been better to do that originally.


It was already apparent to everyone else.
Hey, DC... you should start typing r e a l s l o w .

Don't bother. This is another example of 40¢ trying to save face without a paper bag.
Talk about your 'losing proposition'...
I will not straighten out Clem so as not to hijack your thread further.
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 01:33 AM
My PM inbox is open.
Speak your piece.
Stop it! You will get us shunned!
I'm liking Elizabeth Warren more and more. It's early, but she seems to be in tune w/what a lot of America's values. I think she understands how to bridge the gap between the liberals and conservatives.

I'm not positive of any of that. Just an early feeling.
That is why I originally asked you if Elizabeth Warren was considered a Progressive.

I am beginning to think she will catch and pass Biden to end up with the nomination. She has been concentrating on important issues while the others fuss about Trump all the time.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 02:13 AM
her biggest issue is:

A: still a lot of concerns over the native american identity, and

B: she has a very leftist tax plan. its not as bad as bernie's, but its still up there. its gonna be a tough sell for a lot of americans. not impossible, as there's a ton of people upset about the tax cut, more specifically WHO it went to.
I don't personally care about the Native American thing. It doesn't effect me at all.

The tax thing is a huge concern. I agree w/you. I still have to educate myself a lot more about all the candidates. I haven't studied them at all. I just like some of the things she says. She comes across as intelligent and fair. I think she gets how business works and that's important. I think she comes across as valuing all sects of the population. I like that. But yeah, the tax thing could be a deal killer because people freak about their taxes being raised---and understandably so.
I already answered that question. I don't classify people like that. It's not important to me.
Posted By: gage Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 04:43 PM
Her fumble with the Ancestry21 or whatever test she took will only matter to Trump soundbites in the general. It will garner chuckles from his base but it won't move the needle otherwise, not against people who view her sins against that of Trumps.

I give her credit for having PLANS though. I know some of them are out there but I have much more respect for someone putting their ideas in the marketplace and letting them speak for themselves. Agree or not, what other candidate is really doing that right now?
I heard this on the way home from work yesterday on NPR and thought it was interesting.

Poll: Americans Not Sold On Trump — Or Democrats
3:49
DOWNLOAD
TRANSCRIPT
July 22, 201912:05 PM ET
Heard on All Things Considered
Domenico Montanaro -
DOMENICO MONTANARO




Democratic presidential candidates are proposing lots of progressive policies in this election. And while those policies may resonate with the party base, some of those ideas are not popular with a general election electorate, according to a new NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll.

And overall, independent voters said they were not impressed with the direction either President Trump or Democrats want to take the country at this point ahead of the 2020 election, the findings show.

"Independents are on the fence overall," said Lee Miringoff, director of the Marist Institute for Public Opinion at Marist College, which conducted the poll. "They're not willing to grant President Trump reelection, and yet they're not persuaded by Democrats at this point."


Trump did his best in this polling since taking office, but his approval rating is still just 44%. Fewer independents are undecided about the president and give him a 42% approval rating, up from 35% in June.

The poll was conducted from July 15 to 17, after the president's July 14 tweet that four Democratic congresswomen of color, all American citizens, should "go back" to their countries of origin. The poll of 1,336 adults has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.



Don't see the graphic above? Click here.

What's more, by a 53%-to-39% margin, Americans said they would definitely vote against Trump, statistically unchanged from a month ago; 54% of American voters did not vote for Trump in 2016.

Among independents, a third said they would definitely vote for the president, up from one quarter. A majority — 54% — say they definitely won't, about the same as last month.

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The economy

There's a tremendous gap between views of the president overall and how Americans feel about the economy. Even though Trump gets just a 44% approval rating overall, 52% of registered voters approve of his handling of the economy and two-thirds — 65% — of Americans think the economy is working well for them, including 62% of independents.

Why Progressives Think Joe Biden Is Not 'Electable'
POLITICS
Why Progressives Think Joe Biden Is Not 'Electable'
"Independents are pleased with the economy, but it is not converting to a strong endorsement on his [Trump's] reelect question," Miringoff said.

So there's a political opportunity for Democrats.

But what Americans have heard about the primary so far is not necessarily giving them confidence that Democrats offer a better way. Americans split 46%-to-43% on whether Democrats would take the country in the wrong direction or right one.

And with all-important independents, more (48%) think Democrats would take the country in the wrong direction than the right one (40%).

Democratic loyalists vs. independent voters

There are areas in which Democrats' policy proposals are on solid footing with the overall electorate:

-- Requiring background checks for gun purchases or private sales (89% say it's good idea)

-- Medicare for all who want it, presenting it as an option (70%) rather than doing away completely with private health insurance (41%)

-- Regulating prescription drug prices (67%)

-- Providing a pathway to citizenship for immigrants in the U.S. illegally (64%)

-- Investing in so-called green jobs and energy efficient infrastructure (63%)

-- Increasing taxes on those making more than $1 million (62%)

-- Legalizing marijuana (63%)

-- Banning assault-style weapons (57%)

-- Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour (56%)

Trump's 'Go Back' Rhetoric Is Sign Of A Racially Divisive And Turbulent Year To Come
ANALYSIS
Trump's 'Go Back' Rhetoric Is Sign Of A Racially Divisive And Turbulent Year To Come
Areas that are less popular include:

-- A guaranteed universal basic income of $1,000 per month for American adults (26%)

-- Providing reparations for slavery (27%)

-- Decriminalizing illegal border crossings (27%)

-- A national health insurance program that is available to immigrants in the country illegally (33%)

-- Abolishing the death penalty (36%)

-- Medicare for all replacing private health insurance (41%)

-- Getting rid of the Electoral College (42%)

"These would be issues where people would say the Democratic Party is too far to the left," Miringoff said, "and that's warranted within the data."

On "Medicare for All," "whether it is a choice or a replacement is a huge distinction in terms of how the public reacts," Miringoff added.

On rejoining the Paris climate agreement, 53% think it's a good idea and just 31% think it's a bad idea, but that leaves many undecided.

People are split or give less support to: giving free college tuition at public colleges and universities (53% said good idea, 43% said bad idea); a tax on carbon-based fuels such as coal, oil and natural gas (50% vs. 44%).

Repealing Obamacare unpopular

One area that jumps out as a warning for Republicans is repealing the Affordable Care Act.

Radical Or Incremental? What's Really In Joe Biden's Health Plan
SHOTS - HEALTH NEWS
Radical Or Incremental? What's Really In Joe Biden's Health Plan
Just 44% think it's a good idea, while 51% think it's a bad one. The degree to which the tide has turned on that issue is remarkable considering how much the fight over so-called Obamacare helped Republicans in 2010 while President Barack Obama was in office.

Republicans voted to repeal the law dozens of times while Obama was in office, but with full control in Washington during Trump's first two years, they were not able to repeal or replace the health care law in full.

The divided states of America

One major takeaway from the poll is that America is a nation divided. Democrats and Republicans are worlds apart on the things they think are good ideas. Some of the widest splits on what the parties thought were good ideas were:

-- Rejoining the Paris climate agreement (63 points)

-- Investing in green jobs (60 points)

-- Repealing Obamacare (60 points)

-- $15 minimum wage (58 points)

-- Free college at public colleges and universities (57 points)

-- Increasing taxes on those making more than $1 million (56 points)

-- Health care for immigrants in country illegally (54 points)

-- Semi-automatic weapons ban (54 points)



Don't see the graphic above? Click here.

Of the 20 policy proposals respondents were asked about, many of which have been floated by Democratic presidential candidates, a majority of Democrats were in favor of 16 of them.

A majority of independents thought 12 were good ideas, while a majority of Republicans, as to be expected, were in favor of just three — repealing Obamacare, stricter gun background checks and regulating prescription drug prices.

2020 Democratic primary

There are lots of reasons to discount who has the early lead in primary polls, and that is borne out again in this survey — 82% of Democrats or Democratic-leaning independents say they have not yet made up their mind in the Democratic primary.

2nd Democratic Primary Debate Matchups Set: Sanders Vs. Warren And Biden Vs. Harris
POLITICS
2nd Democratic Primary Debate Matchups Set: Sanders Vs. Warren And Biden Vs. Harris
That is pretty much unchanged from a month ago, when 84% said their minds were not yet made up. A majority (54%) though say they want a nominee who can beat Trump rather than one who shares their position on most issues (42%).

That's a 13-point swing from last month when 47% said they wanted someone who shared their position on most issues versus 46% who said they wanted someone who has the best chance of beating Trump.

The poll of 1,346 adults was conducted from July 15 to 17. The respondents were reached by telephone, both cellphone and landline, with live callers. It has a margin of error of +/- 3.5 percentage points. The survey reached 1,175 registered voters and has a margin of error for that group of +/- 3.7 percentage points. There were 553 Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents interviewed. Results referring to Democrats' views therefore have a margin of error of +/- 5.4 percentage points.


https://www.npr.org/2019/07/22/743516166...mp-or-democrats
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 05:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I don't personally care about the Native American thing. It doesn't effect me at all.


doesn't change that its gonna be an issue. how big or small, we shall see.

Quote:


The tax thing is a huge concern. I agree w/you. I still have to educate myself a lot more about all the candidates. I haven't studied them at all. I just like some of the things she says. She comes across as intelligent and fair. I think she gets how business works and that's important. I think she comes across as valuing all sects of the population. I like that. But yeah, the tax thing could be a deal killer because people freak about their taxes being raised---and understandably so.


her work on the CFPB should be highlighted non stop, as she was amazing trying to represent us against corporations.

and let me clear; her tax plan is better than Bernies, IMO. i've said it before, bernie's tax plan will make even the europeans go "yo slow your roll".
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 05:57 PM
Originally Posted By: gage
Her fumble with the Ancestry21 or whatever test she took will only matter to Trump soundbites in the general. It will garner chuckles from his base but it won't move the needle otherwise, not against people who view her sins against that of Trumps.

I give her credit for having PLANS though. I know some of them are out there but I have much more respect for someone putting their ideas in the marketplace and letting them speak for themselves. Agree or not, what other candidate is really doing that right now?


thats the thing though, that dna test is gonna be attacked by his 35% automatically. the concern is that its gonna start bleeding over to the liberals.

for you and Vers: understand guys, i personally dont think its a big deal anymore, as she's done enough to have us move on from that. however, the big picture issue is that whether we like or not, because of the SJW era and such, liberals and people who lean left is gonna have a tough time with this because we keep claiming that minorties are marginalize, so the right will CORRECTLY wonder why we arent outraged over a white woman stealing identities in order to gain an advantage in her career?

its a problem.

as far as her policies, i like them overall. but again, 2020 is also gonna be about character. and while she certainly has a better character than trump to US, to others.....its an easy avenue to attack her over.

thats all im saying.
Originally Posted By: Swish
2020 is also gonna be about character. and while she certainly has a better character than trump


2020 will be about character with the Left.
2020 will be about the Economy and Jobs with the Right.

Economy Trumps Character in National Elections.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 06:19 PM
Quote:
Economy Trumps Character

The right should put that on a bumper sticker... they could put it right between this one..



and this one...

I mistakenly assumed you would comprehend we were talking in a National Election, not in personal life.

Fixed it to help with comprehension.

My error. rolleyes
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 06:22 PM
Kristyunz, DC.
Now you know why.

I like your idea. That tailgate tag would serve as ID badges.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 06:22 PM
it wont though.

the right has shown they cant get past their disdain for immigrants and non christians long enough to focus on the economy.

hell, Trump can't even focus on the economy. economic numbers dropped a while ago, and was good.

but trump couldnt even tweet about it. why?

he was too busy starting twitter beefs with SNL.
And here come the attacking minions. rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes
Posted By: gage Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 06:28 PM
I think you may very well be right, and if we continue to let perfect be the enemy of good we will continue on our authoritarian path.
Originally Posted By: Swish
it wont though.

the right has shown they cant get past their disdain for immigrants and non christians long enough to focus on the economy.

hell, Trump can't even focus on the economy. economic numbers dropped a while ago, and was good.

but trump couldnt even tweet about it. why?

he was too busy starting twitter beefs with SNL.


Sorry but the recent immigrants are leaning more and more towards Trump because they don't like losing their jobs and the safety of their neighborhoods to ILLEGALS either.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 06:31 PM
you've had two years to pass E-verfiy, but didn't.

the country is well aware of the rights lip service to "fixing" immigration.
It is sad but sooner or later a Terrorist or group thereof will use the Lefts porous, open border to hit us hard.

It will all be on you.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 06:36 PM
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
I mistakenly assumed you would comprehend we were talking in a National Election, not in personal life.

My error. rolleyes

So you are voting for Trump because of his character?
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 06:41 PM
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
It is sad but sooner or later a Terrorist or group thereof will use the Lefts porous, open border to hit us hard.

It will all be on you.


like the terrorist who came through and committed 9/11 under republicans watch?
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
I mistakenly assumed you would comprehend we were talking in a National Election, not in personal life.

My error. rolleyes

So you are voting for Trump because of his character?


I will be voting for Trump because...

-Almost 4 million jobs have been created since his election.

-More Americans are now employed than ever recorded before in our history.

-He has created more than 400,000 manufacturing jobs since his election.

-New unemployment claims recently hit a 49-year low.

-African-American unemployment has recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded.

-Hispanic-American unemployment is at the lowest rate ever recorded.

-Asian-American unemployment recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded.

I could go on but won't.
Oh yea, and another really big one...

2 Conservative/Constitutionalist Supreme Court picks and

One-fifth of the judges on federal appeals courts have been installed by Trump. All Conservative/Constitutionalists.

thumbsup
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 07:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
j/c:

Just look at the number of posts that have absolutely NOTHING to do w/the OP. It's the same old BS that you guys always pull. Hate the other side. Name calling. Lies.

Freaking sickening.


It was so nice to see you following your own advice.
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Oh yea, and another really big one...

2 Conservative/Constitutionalist Supreme Court picks and

One-fifth of the judges on federal appeals courts have been installed by Trump. All Conservative/Constitutionalists.

thumbsup


Yup...Building a dictatorship. Enjoy
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 08:01 PM
If you don't draw a distinction between true followers of Christ and demagogues, you probably belong to Group B.

Group A gets my admiration, love and support.
Group B gets the back of my hand.

Q: How do I tell the difference?
A: Matthew 7:16
Posted By: fishtheice Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 08:03 PM
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Oh yea, and another really big one...

2 Conservative/Constitutionalist Supreme Court picks and

One-fifth of the judges on federal appeals courts have been installed by Trump. All Conservative/Constitutionalists.

thumbsup


From Fox News:

For the first time in more than three decades, Republican-appointed judges will soon occupy nearly half the seats on the left-leaning 9th Circuit Court of Appeals — dealing a setback to progressive legal advocates who have long seen the court as a safe bet for favorable rulings.

nanner thumbsup
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 08:05 PM
Quote:
I could go on but won't.

Quote:
Oh yea, and another really big one...


this says all we need to know.
mememememe rolleyes
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/23/19 08:12 PM
Let's extrapolate that out just a bit, shall we?


Matthew 7:16-20 King James Version (KJV)

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Originally Posted By: fishtheice
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Oh yea, and another really big one...

2 Conservative/Constitutionalist Supreme Court picks and

One-fifth of the judges on federal appeals courts have been installed by Trump. All Conservative/Constitutionalists.

thumbsup


From Fox News:

For the first time in more than three decades, Republican-appointed judges will soon occupy nearly half the seats on the left-leaning 9th Circuit Court of Appeals — dealing a setback to progressive legal advocates who have long seen the court as a safe bet for favorable rulings.

nanner thumbsup


President getting it done! thumbsup
Quote:
Poll: Americans Not Sold On Trump — Or Democrats


That was a long article, so I won't quote the entire thing. However, I think those polls were revealing and it's pretty much what I have been trying to say.

I think a lot of folks want to get Trump the hell out of there, but there are some things on the Democratic platform that make them cringe.

Almost every single one are economically related. The working class is sick of paying for everyone else. I think it would behoove the wise Democratic candidate to compromise a bit. Push for some things and back off on others. You can't change things if you do not get elected.

On the other hand, Trump's issues are about character. He isn't going to fix them. It's impossible because he is a truly bad person. Some can identify w/him, but there are not enough of those type of people to win an election. The reason he won last time and might this time is due to economic policies.

Here's the thing, y'all.

Call me a name because of something I believe in or belong to and I will probably get upset and talk back to you.

Try to steal my wallet and I will literally crush your fingers to the point that you won't be able to use them again.

The Dems need to consider that basic line of thinking. Most folks aren't all philosophical and uppity. It's about living from paycheck to paycheck and making a better life for your loved ones. Never lose site of man's primal instincts.
Quote:
thats the thing though, that dna test is gonna be attacked by his 35% automatically. the concern is that its gonna start bleeding over to the liberals.

for you and Vers: understand guys, i personally dont think its a big deal anymore, as she's done enough to have us move on from that. however, the big picture issue is that whether we like or not, because of the SJW era and such, liberals and people who lean left is gonna have a tough time with this because we keep claiming that minorties are marginalize, so the right will CORRECTLY wonder why we arent outraged over a white woman stealing identities in order to gain an advantage in her career?


I get that, Swish. I was just speaking for myself. I could care less about crap like that. I want to make money and live in peace. It's not like I'm hangin' w/these folks.

I remember loving Bill Clinton. It's when I made the most money in my life. I was going back to school for yet another degree and took a sales job at the same time. My days were long as hell, bro. I didn't even sleep much. The sales job was great because the economy was escalating. We went up to the Detroit area because this hospital gave my wife a incredible offer to work there. Huge salary, stock, all moving expenses paid, signing bonus, the whole nine yards. I was doing medical sales and they hooked me up. Cha-ching!

The point is that people were freaking out about the cigar and Monica and I was like......"Bro, who cares? We're killing it w/this guy leading the country."

I think Warren is smart. I think she might be smart enough to figure out who to serenade while still getting things done for the left.

Then again, I could be way off. LOL.

I'm just hoping she is the one because she seems to make the most sense to me. The Native American thing means ZERO to me, but I agree w/you that folks will use it against her. She and her advisors need to plan to counter those attacks. The best way to do that is by addressing the voting majorities wallets.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/24/19 05:12 PM
I don't think you're off at all. Both sides seem to be slightly short sighted. There's not enough people that actually identify with Trump to win an election on their own. There's not enough people on the far left that endorse all these progressive policies to win on their own.

People don't seem to understand the old adage that, "you must crawl before you walk". Healthcare is a winning issue if they offer to make it elective and not mandated. People do not wish to give up their employer based healthcare. Overhauling college tuition to make a college education much more affordable for everyone is a winning issue if their answer isn't, "We'll just make it free for everyone and make taxpayers foot the entire bill".

Eventually employers will stop providing healthcare because it's a huge cost to them when their employees have an option at comprehensive healthcare at a reasonable cost.

You can provide two years of free Community College to everyone, make rates for college tuition the same as the prime rate, and mandate that public colleges change their tuition structure. I'm sure there are other ways of cutting those costs but that's a good start.

If you think you've taken heat for such a common sense approach you haven't been following along closely.

smile

Not that I really give a damn.

There's a difference between trying to make positive changes and going bat crap crazy. This is the best opportunity I've ever seen for the Democrats to take over power in possibly the senate, the house of congress and The White House.

But we are witnessing first hand the results of what happens when the extremist wing of the GOP takes over. Complete chaos. I don't see any less chaos erupting if the extremist wing of the Democrats take over either.

I certainly don't see it as being the same type of chaos. But chaos none the less. It would be short lived if they could even garner enough support for most of America to support their ideas in the first place.
I read that Elizabeth Warren wants to transfer about $640 billion in student loan debt to taxpayers. This disappoints me because I like a lot of what she has to say, but this is not the type of policy that is going to win an election. frown
Posted By: gage Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 01:47 PM
Is there a particular reason you feel that student loan debt forgiveness is an unelectable issue? I'm not sure we can solve the student loan crisis without at least two of these items happening:

- collateralize current loans (Warrens plan)
- collectively bargain for tuition rates (Also Warrens plan)

But I freely admit to missing something here. Would love your thoughts.
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 02:35 PM
What does collateralize loans mean? ...

As far as i can tell were paying them off ... how does that equal collateral? ...

Please explain ...
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 02:36 PM
What is it u like that she says? ...
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I read that Elizabeth Warren wants to transfer about $640 billion in student loan debt to taxpayers. This disappoints me because I like a lot of what she has to say, but this is not the type of policy that is going to win an election. frown



Did you watch Warren's segment of the NEA conference that I posted in the Education thread? If not, I recommend you and others go back & do so. In her brief time on the stage she explains how she can fund these proposals.
Posted By: gage Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 03:05 PM
student loans have no collateral, because there's nothing to repossess in the event of default. Our solution to this problem has been to have the Federal government guarantee these loans , effectively securitizing them. If a student can't pay, the US government will step in and pay. I should have used the term securitized, not collateralized, my bad.

It's also a big reason why student loan prices are out of control. Universities and private lenders know the US govt won't default, so they issue wild loans to students, confident in repayment. And the US government knows that student default is a problem, so student loans are one of the extremely rare items that can't be disposed of in the event of personal bankruptcy. Last I checked a PELL Grant only needs a debtor to have a GED and maintain a C average. Not quite the same as a credit check. Private loans generally have even fewer requirements because they know the system is designed to make repayment all but guaranteed. It's a profitable system for lenders, who can easily arbitrage the average 5-8% APR into even more profitable investments. It's a significantly safe income stream you can then use to freely invest in riskier assets such as stocks, confident that your downside risk is really just limited to the loan income.
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 03:47 PM
Thanks ...

Your word usage confused me, hence why i asked for clarification ...

Now ... i’m Confused about what u want to do ...

Do u want them federally secured or no? .. what’s Warren plan in that regard? ...
Posted By: gage Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 04:02 PM
Yea , no worries. Its not a huge difference but there there is definitely a difference smile

If we want to provide loan relief I think we have no choice but to securitize them. We do that already , and we provide loan relief through selective programs like PSLF. I really can't think of a way to guarantee defaulted loans without securitizing , and securitizing against t-bills is actually the cheapest way to do that. Any private solution would be more expensive on a rate basis. The US govt could simplify the red tape by filtering these securities through private banks and lenders , ala the mortgage industry, limiting the government waste by limiting the customer base.

Frankly my free market solution would be :
- use traditional LTV and Debt:Income ratios like buying a house. Our current obligations are really lax to encourage college admissions.
- force students to co sign for any lending if they don't meet that requirement. Typically this would be the parents or guardian.
- allow garnishment of cosigner wages in addition to that of the student to recoup losses.
- remove the bankruptcy guarantee so banks will be more choosy in lending.

Unfortunately this is a bit of my conservative idealism showing. It does nothing to deal with current underwater payees , nor does it curb the increasing cost of admission. We would just make it so only the wealthy could send their kids to college. So my preferred solution isnt really good at all, imo.

That said, I would love a system like I outlined above for ivy leagues and private schools even with Warren's proposal. I believe we should be mainstreaming college access , not subsidizing upper echelon educations. Heck i would prefer if we provide a one time relief bill, and then provide free tuition for cost effective institutions , eg. Community colleges and you're more cost effective public options. If we calculated the cost of just education on a per region basis we could tell universities for example : "well pay for the education but not the football team." Let that money come just from boosters.

I'm typing on my phone waiting to leave my plane so forgive run ons and typos
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 04:13 PM
*L* ... i read the first line and had to respond ... ya, not much of a difference ... *L* ...
Posted By: gage Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 04:20 PM
The size of that difference however varies greatly on if you're writing the loan or purchasing the loan. A loan buyer may only care if the settlement amount hits a certain value than it being the actual asset behind the loan. E.g. cash settled instruments work this way. Loan buyer in this case means a bank buying a loan from someone else , not the debtor.

But hey, if you wanna use that to disregard anything else I said , I guess that's your choices. You asked a question and I replied in good faith. I don't know why you didn't want to do the same. If you prefer to converse in bad faith then what's the point? Do you just want to play "gotcha"? Or do you want to converse.
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 04:20 PM
Thanks for the reply ... appreciate the time ...

U gave solutions to different problem(s) other than what to do with the current student loan debt problem ... hard to decipher in that regard ...
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 04:24 PM
Chill dude ... i said i read the first line and had to comment cause i thought it was funny ... this place is so whacked out u automatically default to me looking to pick a fight .. if that was the case, you’d know ... i don’t do subtle or play games ... thumbsup ... i wasted enough time inthis cess pool .. i ask questions and try and understand i don’t come here to pick fights .. when i wanna take a shot it’s EVIDENT TO EVERYONE ...

As far as the differences ...

To me ... theres a huge difference between the gov’t securing it (securitized) and the individual securing it with collateral ...
Posted By: gage Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/28/19 09:24 PM
thumbsup No worries Diam, thanks for clarifying. I'm so used to one sentence responses to posts I make that I made an assumption. I am sorry. I think we all know these problems are hard , and distilling it into simple quips like free college for all, or everyone needs to pay their own way, don't always paint a full picture.

I agree there's a difference between the govt securitizing and the individual. I'm not sure how we can solve the crisis without some collective bargaining power, but hey, I'm not an economist. I just play one in my brokerage accounts rofl
Originally Posted By: gage
Is there a particular reason you feel that student loan debt forgiveness is an unelectable issue? I'm not sure we can solve the student loan crisis without at least two of these items happening:

- collateralize current loans (Warrens plan)
- collectively bargain for tuition rates (Also Warrens plan)

But I freely admit to missing something here. Would love your thoughts.


I would love to respond, but I don't want to upset you again and go through another round of anguish. Suffice to say that I believe that the average voter seeing that she wants $640 billion passed on to them is not going to go over well at all.

Once again, I think it is important to explore the mindset of the people who make-up the majority of the voting population.
On a similar vein to my last post, it's been noted that the elderly have a larger turnout of voters of any age bracket in our country. In fact, 71% of folks over 65 voted in the 2016 election.

The Dems are trying to win this group over and they are trying save Social Security and even increase benefits for the elderly.

I think that is a wise political move because the name of the game is winning votes.
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/29/19 01:04 AM
VERS ... did miss this or are u “ignoring” me in here ... let me know either way please ...

Originally Posted By: DiamDawg
What is it u like that she says? ...
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/29/19 01:13 AM
I asked u for a reason ... your a smart guy and have a better understanding of money than most ... not that i agree with a lot of what u say but u understand “money” more than most ...

I understand your reaction ... i tried to have a conversation the other day and it was pretty one sided ... *L*... thats OK ... i just ask questions to try and understand ....

My solutions start with personal responsibility ... there’s a lot more too it but i always start in the mirror ... thumbsup ..... education is extremely important but u best know what your doing today or your gonna end up with 30 or 40k in debt if your lucky with no real actionable degree ...

The student loan story is just another in the long line of things that were created with great intentions and served their intended purpose for awhile and then ended up having the exact opposite affect ...
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
On a similar vein to my last post, it's been noted that the elderly have a larger turnout of voters of any age bracket in our country. In fact, 71% of folks over 65 voted in the 2016 election.



That could change...they are saying Millennials could outnumber Boomers as the largest generation. However, the question is...will they vote in numbers?

Have you watched Warren on that vid, Vers?
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Originally Posted By: gage
Is there a particular reason you feel that student loan debt forgiveness is an unelectable issue? I'm not sure we can solve the student loan crisis without at least two of these items happening:

- collateralize current loans (Warrens plan)
- collectively bargain for tuition rates (Also Warrens plan)

But I freely admit to missing something here. Would love your thoughts.


I would love to respond, but I don't want to upset you again and go through another round of anguish. Suffice to say that I believe that the average voter seeing that she wants $640 billion passed on to them is not going to go over well at all.

Once again, I think it is important to explore the mindset of the people who make-up the majority of the voting population.


Vers, you ARE not the majority. Sorry you need to feel that way, but you are not in that group. The majority is completely uninvolved in politics until a few months before the election. They are much less informed than you, and don't have this great opportunity to be informed like you do. So stop wasting your chance to see and live the arguments all sides put up. If you were truly open minded you would see some of their ideas aren't so 'extreme' after all.
Please do not tell me who I am or what to think. Thanks.
I didn't say population. I said voter turnout.

No, I haven't watched the video. Would you like to summarize her key points?
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Please do not tell me who I am or what to think. Thanks.


You got it Vers! Now you do the same for everybody else.
Originally Posted By: DiamDawg
VERS ... did miss this or are u “ignoring” me in here ... let me know either way please ...

Originally Posted By: DiamDawg
What is it u like that she says? ...




I listed some of the things I like about her earlier in the thread. I was hoping this thread would be more about how the election can be won that about some other things. But, to humor you, I will mention a few things.

Warren said: “We are now in an America where one-tenth of 1% has about the same wealth as 90% of America,” Warren said in an appearance on MSNBC. “And here’s the deal: 40% of America today can’t come up with 400 bucks in an emergency. That is not an economy that is sustainable, and it’s not a democracy that’s sustainable.” Her idea here is to put a 3% tax increase on billionaires that would raise approximately $275 trillion.

I also like her idea to make things more competitive in the "Tech" market by not allowing all the mergers that are now going on and reducing competition.

I think her ideology on climate control is logical and practical.

I'm wary of her health care plans, but it's better than some of the more radical ones I have seen.

So..........w/that said, I am asking that you [or others] don't turn this into a which candidate is better and which is worse thread. I believe there is an existing thread about the candidates. I only answered you because you are an old friend and you asked twice. I would rather this thread focus on how the Dems can win over the vote of the middle working class and the elderly because they make-up such a large portion of the voting populace.
I'm not doing this, OCD. I will pm you.
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/29/19 12:48 PM
OK ... would like some clarification on some of the things u said but i’ll respect your wishes in this thread ...
Thanks.

Just know this, Diam. We are not going to agree on politics. We see things differently. I am okay w/that and would never dream of trying to change your ideologies.
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/29/19 01:12 PM
I will engage in other threads ... with the intent to learn so i can understand why u think what u do, not to try and change your ideologies ... also to see why u end up voting for who u do ... what it is about them that differentiated them from the other candidates in your mind ...
I haven't decided who I am going to vote for. I haven't educated myself enough. Frankly, I think both parties are a mess and don't identify very well w/the voters.

I guess I can tell you where I lean in this thread, because it is about how to win the election.

I most certainly am moderate while leaning more left than right, but I don't dislike others if they are Republicans. These are not in order and I am just saying things randomly, but I want a candidate that:

--believes in equality for all races, sexes, beliefs, etc.

--understands the importance of economic growth for all, especially the working middle class rather than granting huge tax breaks to the rich and giving the poor handouts for not trying to improve themselves.

--believe in being fiscally responsible. I believe our government foolishly wastes money on a grandiose scale. That has a ripple down effect that hurts its citizens and ultimately the country itself.

--furthers education and tries to shift the emphasis on education to a positive outlook rather than a negative one. I just read on another thread where a poster said "we force our kids to go to school...." What?!? Going to school is a great privilege. We must change the perception.

--believes in helping those who need help, such as the elderly, the mentally ill, the folks who suffer from generational poverty, etc.

--wants to develop programs that assist the downtrodden rather than just "giving" them things. Educate them. Teach them trades. Employ them. Don't let them rot in a the hell-holes that are America's ghettos.

--allows for fair competition business and does away w/these mergers that are ripping off the American public.

--that won't tax the hell out of me in order to pay for the rich and the freeloaders. This one is huge for me. I think it is huge for a lot of the working middle class. It's the reason I started the thread. Don't ignore us or we will ignore you.

I have a lot more, but that's enough to outrage people and it allows them to place more labels on me. LOL
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog

No, I haven't watched the video. Would you like to summarize her key points?


I have already summarized her key points in here at least three times, but as nobody replied or made comment on the NEA video it's obvious education is very low on people's priority or they are too lazy to search things out themselves.. My advice, as I am sure you would have told your students...if you really want to know more about her and her stances you should watch the video rather than having me summarize (again).

Regarding education being a low priority to many Americans...I wish people could see that is exactly what the government wants. An educated society is dangerous to the ruling class because people become aware, question and fight back. An uneducated society allows the small majority to shape, manipulate, control and oppress in a variety of ways. Sadly, it appears that America is falling right into their hands and buying it hook, line and sinker.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I haven't decided who I am going to vote for. I haven't educated myself enough. Frankly, I think both parties are a mess and don't identify very well w/the voters.

I guess I can tell you where I lean in this thread, because it is about how to win the election.

I most certainly am moderate while leaning more left than right, but I don't dislike others if they are Republicans. These are not in order and I am just saying things randomly, but I want a candidate that:

--believes in equality for all races, sexes, beliefs, etc.
100% agree

--understands the importance of economic growth for all, especially the working middle class rather than granting huge tax breaks to the rich and giving the poor handouts for not trying to improve themselves.
100% agree

--believe in being fiscally responsible. I believe our government foolishly wastes money on a grandiose scale. That has a ripple down effect that hurts its citizens and ultimately the country itself.
100% agree

--furthers education and tries to shift the emphasis on education to a positive outlook rather than a negative one. I just read on another thread where a poster said "we force our kids to go to school...." What?!? Going to school is a great privilege. We must change the perception.
100% agree and would add that education should be of highest priority equal to military/social security/medicare because education has the largest ROI for America

--believes in helping those who need help, such as the elderly, the mentally ill, the folks who suffer from generational poverty, etc.
100% agree

--wants to develop programs that assist the downtrodden rather than just "giving" them things. Educate them. Teach them trades. Employ them. Don't let them rot in a the hell-holes that are America's ghettos.
100% agree

--allows for fair competition business and does away w/these mergers that are ripping off the American public.
100% agree and would add level the playing field for SMBs

--that won't tax the hell out of me in order to pay for the rich and the freeloaders. This one is huge for me. I think it is huge for a lot of the working middle class. It's the reason I started the thread. Don't ignore us or we will ignore you.
100% agree! I know this surprises you but I'm only open to taxes going up for reasons that benefit people AND then ONLY if those funds will be spent cost effectively. I'm actually of the opinion that most taxes are not needed for this government to do what it needs to do.

I have a lot more, but that's enough to outrage people and it allows them to place more labels on me. LOL



I had to reply to this because we are not that different. I think the difference is on the fine points.
Posted By: Riley01 Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/29/19 03:09 PM
J\C

When they all raised there hands for open borders and free healthcare and other stuff for the illegals there aint a thing they can say to get me to vote for anyone of those anti semite. anti American and pro illegal over legal tax paying americans and that's my way of honest Critical thinking.
Originally Posted By: Riley01
J\C

When they all raised there hands for open borders and free healthcare and other stuff for the illegals there aint a thing they can say to get me to vote for anyone of those anti semite. anti American and pro illegal over legal tax paying americans and that's my way of honest Critical thinking.


rofl Bro you should go into comedy.
Posted By: Riley01 Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/29/19 03:30 PM
Ill consider that...thxs
Posted By: gage Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/29/19 04:21 PM
.
I think he's going through something bro... not acting like usual.
Posted By: gage Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 07/29/19 04:26 PM
Ok. I won't dig into it further.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/05/19 07:23 PM
jc

progressive can absolutely win this election.

federal deficit up
national debt up
trade deficit with China and europe up
hate crimes up
disrespect of america around the world up
mass shootings up
tariffs up
wage growth stagnant
economic growth stagnant

Trump has to go.
rofl

That's Rich!

rofl
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/05/19 08:00 PM
im laughing too. its the only way i can keep from crying as trump destroys this country.
You are heee so wrong.snort

What you are missing heeee bift

is the fact baw

haw

Hee BAWHAHAHAHAHAhahaha rofl

Can't--Go--On......
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/05/19 08:11 PM
everything i stated was a fact.

you can refute any of it with feelings.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/05/19 08:13 PM
His only answer is silliness and rhetoric.
Trump derangement syndrome (TDS) is a term for criticism of, or negative reactions to United States President Donald Trump that are irrational and have little regard towards Trump's actual positions or actions taken.

The only known cure is to flee to a ...hole country that still performs Electroshock Therapy.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/05/19 08:22 PM
Facts suck and you gotta blame it on somebody.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/05/19 08:23 PM
lmfao, yo Pit what is this? lolololololol
Flee!
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/05/19 08:25 PM
It's the only way they have of deflecting away from the things Trump does.

Basically if you point out what he does, they call it TDS or say you hate Trump. That way they don't have to man up and actually answer for the crazy BS he says and does.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/06/19 03:43 AM
Whether anyone likes it or not, they'll pretty much have to agree of the next three sad statements.

There were two tragic mass shootings within 24 hours about 3 some days ago.

The stock market took a plunge with the worst two consecutive days of the year.


^^ Pretty much marking the Best Political day for Progressives in the last 100 days.

THINK ABOUT THAT!
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/06/19 04:15 AM
Only psychopaths think like that. How sadistic.
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/06/19 04:23 AM
Its probably true. The Dems are a divided party and have nothing going for them.
Not liking Trump is everyone's right.

Rooting for our leader to fail means we all fail.
Posted By: bbrowns32 Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/06/19 02:13 PM
Originally Posted By: EveDawg
Its probably true. The Dems are a divided party and have nothing going for them.


Sure they do.....Trump.
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Originally Posted By: EveDawg
Its probably true. The Dems are a divided party and have nothing going for them.


Sure they do.....Trump.


Just like the Conservatives in Canada have wimpy Trudeau.
Posted By: bbrowns32 Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/06/19 02:38 PM
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Originally Posted By: EveDawg
Its probably true. The Dems are a divided party and have nothing going for them.


Sure they do.....Trump.


Just like the Conservatives in Canada have wimpy Trudeau.


At least he hasn't ticked-off everybody like The Donald has. Besides, he would probably be welcomed in El Paso...
Originally Posted By: EveDawg
Its probably true. The Dems are a divided party and have nothing going for them.


To be fair Eve, the Dems all thought this about the Republicans. They (and even myself) revelled in the fact that the Republicans looked to be splitting apart between the moderates and the far right & religious right. There was a big difference between your Romney's/McCain's in the party and your Trump's, Santorum's etc. I heard many conversations that said the Republicans were putting up "laughing stocks" and "cartoon characters like Palin, Trump etc. How could they possibly win"? Or, "this is the end of the Republican party as we know it". Even the pollsters and the media were saying Trump would never win.

All I am saying is...if you are thinking the Dems are deeply divided and the party is falling apart and splitting between the mods and the "Progressives", which is making it less likely they will elect somebody that can win or is destroying the Dem party as we know it....don't be too sure of that. Trump's election proves that you can't assume and or take anything for granted.
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Originally Posted By: EveDawg
Its probably true. The Dems are a divided party and have nothing going for them.


Sure they do.....Trump.


Just like the Conservatives in Canada have wimpy Trudeau.


At least he hasn't ticked-off everybody like The Donald has. Besides, he would probably be welcomed in El Paso...


But he may not be welcomed in Ottawa much longer.
At least Trump will still have a job come October 21.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/06/19 04:27 PM
Quote:
progressive can absolutely win this election.

They can also absolutely lose this election.. I see a lot of laughing as if this is going to be a cake walk... kind of reminds me of 2016..

So how can they lose this election?
- They can keep offering free stuff with no plan of how to pay for it.
- They can keep widening the net of who is a "racist".. in 2016 it was "some" Trump supporters (just the deplorable ones), now it's "ALL" Trump supporters + anybody they know or associate with + plus any black people who support Trump. The left operates under this delusion that calling Trump and everybody a racist is going to make people on the right who do NOT consider themselves racist to rush to the left but it doesn't work like that. If anything it gives them resolve to stay on the right, dig in, and defend themselves and their friends against claims of racism.
- They can look like total hypocrites on cities like Baltimore which, everybody agreed, was a crap hole until Trump said it, then he was a racist.. then they whined and cried... then a bunch of Trump supporters went in with gloves and shovels and started cleaning it up... while Cummings is whining about racism, Trump supporters are working to clean up HIS district.. might be a small thing but it's a really bad look for the left and very well played by the Trump supporters.
- They can continue to fail to acknowledge prison reform, low unemployment, within the black community..
- They can continue to push the narrative or open (or nearly open) borders and pull stunts like crossing into Mexico and escorting illegal immigrants back.
- As far as all of your fiscal stats, most people are doing pretty well.. so unless that changes fairly drastically, it's not a winning position.


See, you have NO IDEA how galvanized the Trump supporters on the right are because nobody on the left wants to listen.. they just want to scream about racism and fascism and it plays well with their base and within their social media circles so they think they have this giant momentum... and I'm telling you, THEY DON'T. and the candidates on the left are giving nothing for those in the middle to get excited about..
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN

They can also absolutely lose this election.


Well, of course. There is no middle ground. You either win or you lose.

The point of the original post re:winning is many folks in here are saying there is no way the Progressive Dems can win. Go back 3 years and read the thousands of posts in this very forum saying there was no way Trump would win and that the Republican party was collapsing before our eyes.

Same thing.
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/06/19 04:33 PM
They have two things going for them ...

1. The hatred for Trump .. many new voters is why not slamming the posters on here ...

2. China ... there the only thing that can bring down the economy and their intentions are crystal clear ...

And u forgot free health care for illegals as one of the reasons they could lose ...
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN

I see a lot of laughing as if this is going to be a cake walk... kind of reminds me of 2016..



Don't be confused. You see a lot of laughing at the chances of the Progressives winning but no one is laughing at the Moderates chances.
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/06/19 04:37 PM
Who are the moderates?
Originally Posted By: DiamDawg
Who are the moderates?


The Dems who have not bought a second home in Venezuela! rofl
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/06/19 05:54 PM
First let me say that a lot of the Democrats that are running are too far left for me. But that's not really a new thing. I'm usually stuck voting for someone that doesn't really represent my views no matter which party I vote for. As of now I just want a decent human being as our president. So the bar has been set pretty low.

But since when did people start thinking that being a blind follower equals leadership? At least to this point the Democratic candidates have differing views on most topics. Watching any party playing "follow the leader" I find to be rather sad. In 2016 I watched one Republican candidate do nothing but yell and call his opponents names and I'll be damned if that isn't the guy they chose from a field of worthy candidates.

Since then, even when he says and does things that go totally against many of the views and values some of these Republicans have had all of their life, they just say yes sir and fall into line like a bunch of sheep. I've never seen anything that resembles that in the description of leadership.

Now I understand compromise. And when it comes to passing legislation it makes sense to get something passed that's at least close to the things you endorse. But the nastiness, the spreading of hate and division.... and all we hear from their peanut gallery are crickets. It's a sad turn of events for a once proud party.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/06/19 06:07 PM
Translation: progressive might lose because DC and conservatives don’t like hearing the truth about how trash and racist trump is.

Sorry but that post is...smh. Yet another posting talking about how big ole meanies are gonna “Force” conservatives to vote for a racist again.

Take a hard look at your post. You just acknowledge that the right are a bunch of babies who will throw a tantrum if they don’t get their way and attention.

What an amazing way to govern the country. No wonder they voted for trump.
Progressives/Dems might lose if the don't chose a candidate the right likes... rolleyes
Quote:
the right are a bunch of babies who will throw a tantrum if they don’t get their way and attention.


That statement is historically ironic and hilarious after reading you, OCD, Perfect, Daman, etc. You guys whine constantly. Day in and day out. Whine, whine, whine. Beta that!
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 01:04 AM
you're whining about whining though. i'd drop a flip flopper jab, but your post in the other thread tells me i've accomplished my goals quite well.
Those are some lofty goals, bro. brownie

Btw..........would you like a tissue?
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 01:18 AM
nah. sounds like you need it way more than i do.
I ain't crying, little bro. I'm laughing at your ironic self. Let's get real for a moment...........how many threads do you guys start and how many posts do y'all make that cry, cry, cry about Donald Trump being elected.

I'm a Dem, but y'all embarrass me w/that whine...
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 01:24 AM
lol wait wait wait.

for years you've been telling the board you dont identify with either party, now all of a sudden you're a dem?

Quote:

for years you've been telling the board you dont identify with either party, now all of a sudden you're a dem?


That's a lie. I have always said I am a Dem. I have never once voted for a Republican in the presidential elections. It's you who says I don't identify w/either party because your whiny ass doesn't like when people are open-minded and not spewing hate that is directed towards entire groups of people.

I am a Dem, Swish. But, that doesn't mean I have to hate everyone who doesn't agree w/my ideologies like your whiny ass does.

Btw...............best delete the gif. It contains profanity. I don't want you suspended.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 01:44 AM
Lol man what? Get out of here with that nonsense. All of a sudden you’re a dem now. Yea ok buddy.
I've said it many times. Stop lying, little bro.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 04:11 PM
The problem is, this generation no longer understands what a Democrat looks like. If you're not some far left progressive they don't think you count.

Meanwhile Biden leads the field of candidates by a mile. In today's world losing touch has been seen as a good thing.

It's funny how the people they seem to support spent the last debate attacking Biden on Obama's record. How quickly they forget.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 04:28 PM
Quote:
Sorry but that post is...smh.

My honest opinion?

Quote:
Yet another posting talking about how big ole meanies are gonna “Force” conservatives to vote for a racist again.

No, not because they are big ole meanies.. because some of them are off the rails to the left...

Quote:
Take a hard look at your post. You just acknowledge that the right are a bunch of babies who will throw a tantrum if they don’t get their way and attention.

Yep, the left has been the model of maturity for the last 20 years.. rofl
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG


Meanwhile Biden leads the field of candidates by a mile. In today's world losing touch has been seen as a good thing.



Hmmm...Didn't Sanders lead in the Dem race? Didn't Clinton lead in the General?

Point is...don't buy stock on what these pollsters are telling you. And, have you ever been polled? I certainly haven't...so who the hell are these people who are getting asked to participate in these polls?
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 05:53 PM
I'm not going to ignore a 2 to 1 margin.
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
The problem is, this generation no longer understands what a Democrat looks like. If you're not some far left progressive they don't think you count.



That's because the current baby boomer Dem is status quo politics that won't have the spine to really make significant change. They want to appeal a bit to the left and a bit to the right. Baby steps...rather than leaps. Biden wants to be like Obama, but he will prob be more like a Bill Clinton or Carter. But, what he won't be is his own person. He is shaping himself around a mould that was already made rather than choosing his own path and leading the way.

The changes people like Sanders want to make (and no, I am not endorsing Sanders by using him as an example), are significant and long reaching. They will take a leader who has the backbone to fight and push for them, but also to change the narrative of the country. People and society are organic...it is constantly moving, changing, shifting and growing. Biden isn't endorsing that movement nor change. He wants to keep it static.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 06:14 PM
How many on the right want healthcare for all? How many on the right want to work to decrease college debt? How many on the right really want significant climate change legislation?

Nah, you're painting the picture you want to see.

Many seem to advocate programs designed in ways to only increase the divide. Let me tell you what that will accomplish. Four, or eight years after 2020, when Republicans would be in charge yet again, all of those programs will be scrapped. They'll land on the junk pile and you'll end up with nothing. Zero, zip, nada.

Using a more common sense approach to accomplish the same goals appeals to more people and would make it harder to overturn. It's a base line that may be sustainable. From there, you can work to advance those changes into what many are talking about now.

The Wright Brothers didn't start by inventing a 747. You have to crawl before you walk.

Having medicare for all doesn't mean you have to do away with people having a choice to keep their employer based healthcare.

Helping students greatly reduce their college debt and decrease their interest rate doesn't require, "free college for all". Are those things that can be achieved over time? Possibly.

But if you think you can do those things, in that way, and they will stand the test of time? You would be wrong. It would be very temporary. And in the end, you will be left with nothing.
Dude...I'm not going to argue with you as you have your POV and I have mine. It will go in circles just as so many of these threads do.

I also understand the irony of my example of Sanders who himself is a boomer, but he has, to his credit, been thinking outside the box for decades and he listens to many views and other people (POC, LGBTQ) to understand their perspective. Again, I am not endorsing him...just using him as the easy example as to how the mainstream moderate Dem like Biden is trying to pander to both sides and ultimately true change and a proper stance gets lost.

I do think it is time for the boomers to relinquish the torch and hand it on. They seem to have forgotten just how monumental it was for their generation when Kennedy won. But, they are hell bent on holding on to that torch for as long as they can (just as their parents/grandparents generation were).
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 06:30 PM
I think where we really disagree is where you see it as "both sides". That's the mentality that's going to drown us all.

We actually have pretty much the same end goal, we just different ways and speeds of getting there.

That's not "both sides". That's the "same side".
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I think where we really disagree is where you see it as "both sides". That's the mentality that's going to drown us all.

We actually have pretty much the same end goal, we just different ways and speeds of getting there.

That's not "both sides". That's the "same side".


The mainstream moderate Dem wants to pander to both sides.

AND, I am not talking about Trump's right or Bernie's left....I'm talking about your bog standard, traditional GOP and your bog standard traditional Dem.

I think people, society, communities and the USA has changed...life is organic and as with teachers whose kids are different today than they were 10 years ago....politicians also need to adapt and grow. I don't see that with Biden. In fact, I see the opposite. He is like the old school teacher who refuses to accept new ideas and believes that what they were teaching and how they were teaching 20-30 years ago still works today. It doesn't because the kids in their classroom have changed as has our perspective of teaching. Growth mindset....remove one's ego from it to learn and always continue to WANT to educate yourself to be the best.

And, with that will come a voice that is strong and can resonate to others. But, it will still always have its critics, but the message will be for the good.

That's how I see it, anyhow.

Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 06:46 PM
I think you actually touched on a great point. Classrooms and have changed over the past 10 years. But there haven't been enough people coming out of those classrooms in the last 10 years to win a national election.

One thing about it. For any of us to achieve any of the goals we would both like to see, first you have to get elected.
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I think you actually touched on a great point. Classrooms and have changed over the past 10 years. But there haven't been enough people coming out of those classrooms in the last 10 years to win a national election.

One thing about it. For any of us to achieve any of the goals we would both like to see, first you have to get elected.


I couldn't disagree more. Obviously, one has to go further back than 10 years as you have to be 35 to run for Prez. But, every day, every month, every year I see great things and amazing potential in young people. AND, I have had some incredible conversations that are far more wise than many I have had with adults. But, because of their age they continually have to go up against those who are older who think they are too young to understand. With age may come wisdom, but wisdom is only achieved if one is willing to listen and learn from others and continually question themselves and grow as a human being. If one is willing to work hard to make strives in changing their own narrative as well as the narrative in their community and their country...that is when the status quo is broken and significant progress can happen.

Regarding the current crop of Dems...there are millennials and Gen X'ers in the group who rightfully deserve to be heard to help distinguish from the same old rhetoric. But, because of how our system is and the media they give a biased amount of airtime to those they perceive are leading the field. That isn't fair to the candidate nor is it fair to the voting public because it means the media are controlling the narrative.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 07:21 PM
Yet it was only 10 and 6 years ago respectively that Obama was elected by the Democrats. And now a very short time later the far left progressive candidates are attacking Biden on that very record.

Just a few short years later they seem to think that everything that created a situation where they controlled The White House should be placed on the scrap heap.
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Yet it was only 10 and 6 years ago respectively that Obama was elected by the Democrats. And now a very short time later the far left progressive candidates are attacking Biden on that very record.

Just a few short years later they seem to think that everything that created a situation where they controlled The White House should be placed on the scrap heap.


But, we weren't talking about this. The Dem candidates attacking Biden and in turn some of Obama's legacy isn't the crux of the conversation we are/were having. Ultimately, that is all background noise and stopping us from seeing the real issue w/Biden as a candidate. He may represent change from the current Trump admin, which is GOOD, but, when it comes to truly making progress and change it won't happen. It will be back to the status quo we were in BEFORE Trump.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 07:49 PM
All I can say is good luck with that. I'm going to vote for a Democrat because at this point, anything is better than Trump. Even if they serve up a candidate I don't care for.

But then I live in Tennessee where Trump will win anyway.

That might be your only saving grace when you tell working Americans they can't keep their healthcare. And tell people they have to pay in full for the college tuition of other people's children.

Such programs won't be popular and won't last for long. And I doubt they'll ever get by the house and senate. It's not like I'm screaming out against those things. It's just that I know how cramming too much too soon down the throats of Americans will work out in the end.
I'm not so sure Trump will win handily in the red states. Some conservative women seem to be starting to distance themselves. Trump has taken a ton of damage the last few days over these killings. Women don't want their kids getting shot up.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/07/19 07:59 PM
All I can do is my part and vote. But if you wish to make a side bet on which party wins Tennessee in 2020, PM me. I'll take that bet. wink
Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
I'm not so sure Trump will win handily in the red states. Some conservative women seem to be starting to distance themselves. Trump has taken a ton of damage the last few days over these killings. Women don't want their kids getting shot up.


Myself, I've not seen what you describe. Small sample, I know. What I HAVE seen is misinformation and lies about Trump hardening many people into voting for him.

The left, and the msm may not see that what they are doing just might, MIGHT, hurt the libs chance.
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
All I can say is good luck with that. I'm going to vote for a Democrat because at this point, anything is better than Trump. Even if they serve up a candidate I don't care for.

But then I live in Tennessee where Trump will win anyway.



I understand different state = different politics. Oregon is blue, but only because of Portland and Eugene. Leave either of those cities and drive 60 miles east or west (or south of Eugene) and it is red and not too dissimilar to TN.

It is still early in the process...listen to the candidates beyond the mainstream media who are biased on airtime. Read...make your mind up and vote. Who knows, one of them other than Biden can rise and still defeat Trump. Otherwise, you ARE giving in to the status quo very early before NH or Iowa, even.

But hey, you do you and I will do me. And yes, I agree any of the Dems would be better than DT. Even Marianne Williamson! But, I also think a ferret would be better than the current occupier.
Originally Posted By: PDXBrownsFan
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
All I can say is good luck with that. I'm going to vote for a Democrat because at this point, anything is better than Trump. Even if they serve up a candidate I don't care for.

But then I live in Tennessee where Trump will win anyway.



I understand different state = different politics. Oregon is blue, but only because of Portland and Eugene. Leave either of those cities and drive 60 miles east or west (or south of Eugene) and it is red and not too dissimilar to TN.

It is still early in the process...listen to the candidates beyond the mainstream media who are biased on airtime. Read...make your mind up and vote. Who knows, one of them other than Biden can rise and still defeat Trump. Otherwise, you ARE giving in to the status quo very early before NH or Iowa, even.

But hey, you do you and I will do me. And yes, I agree any of the Dems would be better than DT. Even Marianne Williamson! But, I also think a ferret would be better than the current occupier.


I know it will never happen, but I would really struggle with voting for her. I think her heart is in the right place, and I think she is very intelligent... but her cult like following and intensity when speaking reminds me of Hitler giving speeches. She's far from fascist, but not far from bananas. the hell of it is that she actually makes some good points if she could drop the 'love' aspect. I'm sorry but I don't want to love everybody, but I wouldn't mind a 'summer of free love' again.
Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg

Marianne Williamson

I know it will never happen, but I would really struggle with voting for her. I think her heart is in the right place, and I think she is very intelligent... but her cult like following and intensity when speaking reminds me of Hitler giving speeches. She's far from fascist, but not far from bananas. the hell of it is that she actually makes some good points if she could drop the 'love' aspect. I'm sorry but I don't want to love everybody, but I wouldn't mind a 'summer of free love' again.


Dude, she has no chance and I said after the 1st debate that she was a cartoon character. She was better in the 2nd debate, not quite as bats@#$ crazy sounding, but she won't be there for the Sept debates. She talks as if she spent too much time with Timothy Leary eating fistfulls of Orange Sunshine blotter! BUT, I will take somebody sounding like an acid head talking about "love" over somebody who uses hateful, inciteful language like the current occupier. But, I'm also using her as an example of the extreme and how low we have fallen w/this guy.
I knew what you were saying, my statement was pretty much the same meaning. I would still struggle if I had to vote for her, but I wouldn't hold taking good acid against her.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/13/19 05:41 PM
progressives can win because Trump just blinked first in his own stupid ass trade war.
Originally Posted By: Swish
progressives can win because Trump just blinked first in his own stupid ass trade war.


Yeah, I heard Christmas profits are a concern... rolleyes
Posted By: fishtheice Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/13/19 11:32 PM

"It’s very frustrating because I like to think on the left we don’t do things like that,” Williamson said. “So it’s been a bit of a wake-up call". rofl She's just finding out now how treacherous the left is?




Marianne Williamson: ‘Ancient Strain of Misogyny’ at Work to Keep Her Out of Next Dem Debates

Penny Starr11

Aug 2019

New Age guru and presidential hopeful Marianne Williamson believes her fellow Democrats and “an ancient strain of misogyny” are at work to keep her out of the next debate in September.

“There’s [a] well-strategized effort to smear me,” Williamson told DailyMail while the candidate took part in the traditional Iowa Wing Ding dinner fundraiser on Friday.

‘It’s very frustrating because I like to think on the left we don’t do things like that,” Williamson said. “So it’s been a bit of a wake-up call.

“But apparently there’s some very powerful forces that want to make sure I’m not in that third debate so I must be doing something right if they’ve worked so hard to create that,” Williamson said.

But while she blames her peers, she did not name them in the DailyMail report.

Williamson’s campaign has been haunted by some of her previous stances on issues such as an anti-vaccine stance and negative remarks about anti-depressants, which she has said are mischaracterizations.

“I’m a Jew,” Williamson said in the DailyMail report. “I go to the doctor. This idea of me not being for medicine is preposterous.”

“It is it is a characterization, a mischaracterization, a caricature … that clearly somebody finds to their political benefit to create and spread,” Williamson said.

But so far it is the requirements to qualify for the next debate holding Williamson back. She is currently short 13,000 unique donors of the 130,000 required and a 2 percent showing in four approved polls.

The deadline to meet those requirements is Aug. 28.

‘I’m in it,” Williamson said. “And as long as my heart says I’m in it, I’m in it.”

https://www.breitbart.com/2020-election/...ext-dem-debate/
Another victim of Utopian snake bite.
Posted By: WooferDawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/14/19 06:36 AM
Nope, sorry Marianne, it has nothing to do with misogyny and everything to do with the fact that you are way, way out there as a presidential candidate.

Try again.
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/14/19 07:05 AM
I wish she would quit wasting our time.
Write another book. Do some more 'Oprah Time.' Keynote another self-help symposium.

Knock yo damself out, grlfrnd....

...but pa-LEEEEZE give this POTUS stuff up.
Posted By: Swish Re: How Progressives Can Win the Election - 08/14/19 03:53 PM
jc

progressive can win.

why? because they wont be spending every freaking day live tweeting fox news, like trump is doing RIGHT NOW.
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