So I just want to know who thinks this is justified and protected under religious freedom?

Arizona Man Accused of Killing 6-Year-Old Son During Attempted Exorcism

An Arizona man has been charged with first-degree murder after the authorities said he killed his 6-year-old son by forcing hot running water into his mouth for several minutes as part of an attempted exorcism.

The man, Pablo Martinez, 31, told responding police officers that the child had a demon inside of him and needed to be saved, according to the criminal complaint.

He was arrested on Thursday at the family’s home on the Pascua Yaqui Tribe Reservation, located about 10 miles southwest of downtown Tucson. He was detained after a hearing on Tuesday morning, prosecutors said.

Mr. Martinez told federal officials that he had noticed a “demon” inside of his son during the previous week, according to court documents. He said when he was giving his son a bath, along with another child, his son started to have “an unnatural fit of rage,” the documents said. Mr. Martinez said he saw something evil and had to cast it out by holding his son’s head under the bathtub faucet.

He held the boy under hot water, which was pouring into his mouth, for five to 10 minutes, according to court documents. The other child in the bathtub left at some point crying, the documents said.

Romelia Martinez, the boy’s adoptive mother, told federal officials that she had heard gurgling sounds coming from the bathroom but found the door locked. When she got it unlocked, she said she saw Mr. Martinez holding the child under the water and screamed multiple times for him to stop.

Mr. Martinez told her he “had to do it,” the documents said. Ms. Martinez then called 911 and watched Mr. Martinez attempt C.P.R. on the child and pour cold water on his body.

Mr. Martinez is not a member of the Pascua Yaqui Tribe, but Ms. Martinez and Gema Garcia, the child’s biological mother, are enrolled members of the reservation, the documents said.

Officials from the tribe’s police and fire departments arrived at the family home around 4:30 p.m. for a reported child burn, the documents said. When the police got there, Mr. Martinez and Ms. Martinez were standing outside of their house. Mr. Martinez placed his hands in the air and said, “I did it,” but told the police that he did not think they had the right mind-set to understand. Ms. Martinez also told the officers that the child had been “acting demonic,” according to court documents.

Police found the 6-year-old lying on a bed in a back room, naked and propped up on a pillow. He did not appear to be breathing. The police wrapped the child in a towel and put him in an ambulance headed for Banner University Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead.

At the hospital, the Federal Bureau of Investigation found burns on the child’s forearms, elbows and head. The medical staff said more than 15 percent of his body had been burned, according to the documents.

Michael Areinoff, Mr. Martinez’s lawyer, did not respond to calls or emails on Tuesday requesting comment. Prosecutors declined to comment on the case.

The Pascua Yaqui Tribe has about 19,000 members, with 4,000 to 5,000 living on the 2,200-acre reservation, according to the National Congress of American Indians. A vast majority of criminal cases filed in the tribal court are domestic violence-related offenses, according to the congress.

Federal authorities investigate homicides on Native American reservations when suspects, victims or both are members of federally recognized tribes. The Phoenix division of the F.B.I. investigated more than 600 violent crimes in 2017, according to a Justice Department report on investigations and prosecutions on Native American reservations.

The F.B.I. is “dedicated to working alongside tribal and federal partners to protect all of our communities,” Jill McCabe, a spokeswoman for the bureau, said on Tuesday.

Abbie Fink, a spokeswoman for the tribe, said in a statement that the Pascua Yaqui Police Department and the F.B.I. are continuing to investigate, and counseling services are being provided to support the community.

“The Pascua Yaqui Community suffered the loss of a child,” Ms. Fink said. “As a close-knit community this loss weighs heavy on all of our hearts.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/us/arizona-child-exorcism-death.html

IMHO, People who think this way or believe in this crap should all be in insane asylums where they cannot harm others. Not every religious person is bad, religion itself is not necessarily bad, but bad crap happens all the time in the name of religious beliefs... religion is not worth it IMHO.

Horrible ...1st degree murder. This guy has the demons in him. He should get the same treatment until dead. That poor kid.

I'm an atheist, and in general I'm all for religious freedom EXCEPT when it comes to a situation like this where actions (or lack of action) risks the life of another person, religious or non-religious.

I'd also suggest this live in another forum (EE) instead of "The Outhouse".

well the question has to be asked to those who are religious:

do you believe in possessions? if so, do you also believe that exorcisms work? and if so, are you ok with parents exorcising their own kids?

I think religious freedom is a fine principal. Right up until you are inflicting your religious beliefs upon others. Using your religion as an excuse to discriminate against others, limit the choices of others or inflicting harm on others just as this case did, is where the line must be drawn.

I think this case is more about child abuse and a father who snapped much more-so that it is about Religious Freedom. I am not buying the Religious Freedom defense.

I also think this was posted to throw more crap towards religious people. I am not religious at all. I can't remember the last time I attended church. Decades ago. However, I don't understand why people want to persecute people who are religious or vice versa.

I believe in freedom of choice w/out fear of persecution and ridicule.

I don't recall scalding water being part of exorcism rites. The whole point is to free the victim of the demon, not kill them. I wouldn't practice home surgery on my kids, nor would I make up my own exorcism rites. Why didn't he call an expert?

Don't take the above statements as my belief. I feel if it helps a believer, go for it. Don't kill them in the process.

Always something politically motivated to blame. People just can't be insane.

It's guns, it's politics, it's religion.

Actually when the people involved blame those things, you can't really shoot the messenger can you?

I thought about posting in EE, but anytime you try to question the validity of religious beliefs the conversation quickly turns political. So I posted it in here. Although the article itself is not about religious freedom, it is worthy of conversation advancing the religious freedoms debate. And as I stated in my OP, not all religious people or religions are inherently bad but in extreme cases like this where do we draw the line on religious rights? The victim's rights in this case should easily be valued as higher priority than the parents, yet in other cases the right to impose your religious will on others is the higher priority and I thin that is wrong. Discuss.

OF course because I posted it it's throwing crap... Or maybe it was posted as an extreme example to spark debate and conversation... NOPE that wouldn't fit your agenda to demean everything I stand for. lol Vers - if it's from OCD you know there is some liberal plot behind it.

Here's an idea. If you don't like what I post, don't comment on it. But please do not take that as me saying I don't welcome your participation because unlike the way you think about me, I do like to see what you have to say about things.

That said, I'm not demeaning religion or religious people, I'm attacking the 'religious freedom' movement that makes religious people think they can do whatever to others in the name of religion.

WHAT? This guy is obviously nuts! Like I said, these people should be in asylums where they cannot harm others. Not all religious people, just the insane ones... Just like not all gun owners, just the insane ones... Problem is how do you sort them? And when you have crowds screaming that their religious rights are being discriminated against because they are not allowed to HATE on others, you will always have people like this watching closely.

Sorry you hate Native American tribal beliefs.

But, realistically, zero people care about your heathen hate towards religion.

Just one more notch on the alt left hate belt.

Agreed.

I have a feeling the O.P. went after religion as it fit his agenda. After all, "demon" was mentioned.

No where in the article posted did I see a claim of "religious freedom" to kill a child. If it was in the article, I missed it.

Religious freedom does not allow one to kill.

Enough said, right there. Those are your words.

? Happy hour?

Of course you do... another OCD hater.

Don't post partial quotes for your stalker spin.

No, just you bitching about how much you hate religion regarding an article about native americans and their religious beliefs.

Okay. Here's your full post:

Read your underlined quote. Then notice how you go right ahead and ignore what you said.


Who made the headline?

So what?

Did you figure all that out all on your own? smh What a crock.

Or maybe you look like a fool.

lol, ok Eve. I guess you support killing kids over religion.

Please do share which Native American tribe has a religion that supports killing kids.

I'll wait.

The article mentions a tribe that these people are not part of. They do however live on the reservation. But I never said squat about native americans, you did. I asked a very simple question; do you support killing kids over religion? You see, if you could comprehend the article, that is what is being discussed. A man ran hot water into the mouth of his young son for ten minutes because he believed it would drive out a demon. But all of that is lost on you because you would rather try to play gotcha with me instead of talking about the subject.

EDIT BTW, the boy died.

I often times wonder about you.

Here's the answer to your stupid question: No one supports killing kids over religion. In fact, there are laws against it.

You took a mighty swing trying to relate this to religion. You missed, mightily.

So you are saying these Native Americans dont believe in any Native American religions?

Is there a thing such as Native America religion?

What part does exorcism play in it? Since you are making grand statements about religion?

So, lets see, you hate Native American ancestrial teachings because they have the Religous Freedom to believe what they believe.

Because, yenno, the title of this thread is Religious Freedom.

I hardly missed. His religious beliefs made him kill his son. What did I miss? Additionally, I know we have laws against murder, but we now have laws that let religious people do unacceptable things and get away with them 'because Jesus'. This case is just a shocker that allows me to point out how ridiculous that is. Allowing other to impose their religion on others or act in an irrational manner with hateful acts toward others in the name of their religion is a slippery slope. Next we'll be sacrificing kids to the Trump god.

And you don't need to worry about me. You have more than enough to worry about of your own.

No religion is mentioned. Thanks.

Is that a threat?

Why would I threaten you? You literally mean nothing to me. Nothing.

That's nice of you.

Actually, shows your class.

That's honest of me and much more than I can say for you.

Thanks. So, you send a veiled threat to me. Tell me I mean nothing to you. Then tell me I'm not honest.

You are such a classy fellow.

I sent no threat whatsoever, that's a lie proving you are not honest. And yes, you mean nothing to me. But you are doing your best to attack me over and over here. You and Eve are going all out on the personal attacks.

I'm as honest as the day is long. If only you had a clue.

Grow up.

I'm not the one making unjustified accusations about threats that don't exist? I'd say I already have a clue. Truth is, you seem hurt because you don't matter to me. After all the things you've said and done in here, you would have to delusional to think I would care about you. The best way to avoid these conversations is for you to not respond to my posts. I've learned my lesson about letting you get under my skin, the refs would have already banned me for the attacks you've made in here tonight. And if that is what you mean by 'grow up', I'll pass.

Not really. You cant handle that your topic is thrown back in your face.

Like usual. You resort to temper tantrums.

I'd like to say I honestly don't know where he comes up with the stuff he comes up with. But, sadly, I do.

HE is the one that made this a religious issue, and even went so far as to ask "do you believe in killing children for religious beliefs".






OD, you don't get under my skin. I just enjoy pointing out your ineptitude on some things.

I've mad no personal attacks, yet, as usual, when you have nothing, you resort to ludicrous claims.

You're taking June 21st, right?

Tantrums? lmao. Truths are now tantrums? And nobody threw anything back in my face, I just got confronted with illogical rhetoric from the alt-right faction of the board. Nothing new here at all.

LMAO! Eve trotting out and patting you on the back does not make either of you correct. smh

Look at you! Alt left extremist trying to compare Religous Freedom to murder!

Off the rails much? Skip your meds lately?

Religious freedom laws created so Christians can be hateful or act nuts are BAD for everyone. I know you can't see that.

You do realize that this article is not about Christians? Right?

Seek a doctor dude.

How do you know that? They tried to perform an exorcism, atheists don't do that! They were religious, and I never called them Christians. But you think because they live on a reservation with a tribe of native Americans that they can't be Christians... smh

Because 1) you cant seem to read your own article and 2) you know nothing about Christianity, let me shine a light into the dark hole that is your head.

1) This article is talking about Native American tribalism. At no point is Christianity ever mentioned.
2) A dumbass committed murder. He didnt even do it under the guise of "A religion."
3) YOU inserted the term "exorcism". This word is not mentioned in the article.
4) Lessons to cure ignorance : The Christian rite of Exorcism has very specific procedures, scripture, and can only be performed by someone qualified. It certainly doesnt involve an indian murdering children.

I see now, how you vote for Bernie. You both suffer from a similar form of dementia.

Eve:

- Exorcism is now highlighted for you.
- Tribalism is not a religion. If you are insinuating that they can't be native american or living on a reservation and still be Christian, I'd like to hear you explain that since I know nothing about Christianity.
- I'd bet I know as much or more than you about Christianity and more so how Christians behave.

But do explain and attempt to belittle me some more. I'll wait.

Here. Excorism for Dum Dums.

https://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=683

Must be performed by a priest.

Not by heathens in bathtubs for the purpose of killing children.

But, yenno, the moron left are quick to bash religion, unless a muslim is involved. Because mysogynist pedophiles are exceptional human beings.

So just because they are native american, they are heathens and couldn't be Christians? What about all the other religions that practice exorcisms including variations of Christianity?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism

And I'm not touching that last statement.

None of those religions have anything to do with Native American tribal beliefs.

Nor are any of those mentioned in that article.

How are you not reaching.

That’s what you think. Emotions are hard to read in text. And about your crap of pilling on OCD that’s a bit senseless and hateful.

We’ve been killing each other in the name of the lord since the inception of the human race. We’ve argued here on how we should be allowed to force birth on rape victims in the name of the lord. We’ve even argued for 4 years how a biz should be allowed to deny services to certain people in the name of the lord. This is just another sick example of how sick people will twist religion.

Speaking of religious freedom:

1,700 Catholic priests accused of child sexual abuse are reportedly living freely in the US with no oversight, working in schools, and failing to register as sex offenders

https://news.yahoo.com/1-700-catholic-priests-accused-093738026.html

Yea, sorry to all but I consider the church nothing more than organized crime. it’s really difficult as time goes on to not wonder who’s been worse throughout the course of history; drug cartels or organized religions.

Well at least they are not heathens...

We wouldn't want heathens raping Christian kids.

Oh dear God.

The article plainly states the man is not a member of the tribe.

For the most part, much like yourself, I don't think the article really has anything to do with religion. The man drowned the child and gave some lame alibi to try and justify it.

But at the same time, the man didn't belong to the Indian tribe as the article tells us so Native American beliefs have zero to do with it.

And as I pointed out, the article plainly states he's not a member of the tribe. That's a moot point.