DawgTalkers.net
I've said for some time that Barr is complicit in Trump's persistent and determined undermining of American norms and the separation of powers. I think he has politicized the DOJ and it's a terrible precedent that he has set.... it will get further exploited and his example will be used again in the future by a Democratic or Republican president and it will be to the determinant of the country.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/william-barr-founders-constitution-autocracy.html

It's a good article and raises serious talking points - not the least of which the point that when Barr was applying to be attorney general that the president is the executive branch. One paragraph as an example:

I have a question of nomenclature for you. You keep talking about autocracy. When you talk about autocracy, what exactly do you mean? I guess I want you to unpack it and tell me when you started using that word.

I don’t know quite when I started using that word, but it was around the time that I saw that there was this systematic effort to free the president from the limitations upon his use of power that have always been sort of in the water we drank and the air we breathe. And one of the very first things that started down that road with Bill Barr was when the president, not liking the fact that Congress had declined to appropriate money for his border wall, declared an emergency, and then immediately said, This isn’t really an emergency. I just want to do it quicker. And Barr’s Justice Department went to court to defend his ability to do that. So what is that? That’s the appropriations clause. The Constitution says that the Congress appropriates money. Congress repeatedly, explicitly refused to appropriate that money. And the president says, Forget it. I’m just going to go ahead and do it anyway. So that’s one example of a power being overridden. Then, throughout 2019, there’s this vast array of acts to stonewall efforts by the Congress to do oversight, to get information, to get documents, to talk to witnesses, even in connection with the impeachment. And they basically just said, Nah, we’re not going to give it to you. Of course, another element of it is, well, we don’t like the Mueller report, so we’ll just override it.

So the list goes on and on and on. And what it amounts to is a systematic effort by this administration, under the direction of Bill Barr, to dismantle the checks and balances on the system. When you eliminate virtually all the checks and balances on the president’s power, what do you have left? You have an autocrat.
Donald Trump hints he could fire FBI director over Antifa disagreement
The Independent
Graeme Massie
,The Independent•September 18, 2020
Director Christopher Wray testifies before the House Homeland Security Committee (EPA)
Director Christopher Wray testifies before the House Homeland Security Committee (EPA)
Donald Trump dropped his strongest hint yet that he could replace his own FBI director in their continued Antifa disagreement.

The president publicly criticised Christopher Wray this week for comments he made to Congress about Antifa and Russian interference in the upcoming elections.

Mr Wray angered Mr Trump when he told US lawmakers that he viewed Antifa as an ideology not a terrorist organisation, which put him at odds with the White House.

In the hearing before the House Homeland Security Committee, Mr Wray said that he regarded Antifa as a “real thing” but denied it was a terror group.

- ADVERTISEMENT -

“We look at Antifa as more of an ideology or a movement than an organisation,” said Mr Wray.

Speaking to reporters at the White House on Friday, Mr Trump took the opportunity to go after Mr Wray, who he appointed in 2017, and refused to rule out firing him.

“Antifa’s a bad group. And they’re criminals and they’re anarchists and they’re agitators and they’re looters and rioters,’ said Mr Trump.

“And when a man doesn’t say that, that bothers me. I wonder why he’s not saying that.

The president was then asked directly if he planned on firing him as FBI director.

“We’re looking at a lot of different things. I did not like his answers yesterday,” said Mr Trump.

“Im not sure he liked them either,I’m sure he would probably agree with me, Antifa is bad, really bad."

Mr Trump also jabbed at Mr Wray for testifying about Russia’s “very active efforts” to meddle in the upcoming election, but not China’s.

“The big problem is China, we can have others also and I’m not excluding anybody, but the big problem is China and why he doesn’t want to say that, that certainly bothers me.”

The president has repeatedly sought to downplay Russian efforts to interfere in US elections in his favour, at one point even publicly backing Vladimir Putin’s denials over his own intelligence agencies’ conclusions.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump-hints-could-fire-024750699.html
Nothing to see here.
Wait, I only saw Jesters' post and not yours.

Obama already weaponized the DOJ, or Politicized it, you worry about politicizing it as a precedent, and Obama has already weaponized it, so you can't re set a precedend that is already there.
AG Rom Emmanuel, some of the things he did or refused to do, I'm talking about.
Not prosecuting those who obstructed voters, putting some good guy in jail for selling guns or not selling guns to Mexican drug cartels which later shot at US officials,
NO! I don't know the details, but I DO know weaponizing the DOJ? Yeah 8 years of Obama? Sure we've already had it.
Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
Nothing to see here.


That's what Trump wants you to think. Nothing here, just Russia helping him, ANTIFA not a threat at all, Barr and Trump election meddling with post office and scaring people about mail in voting. Nothing to see here, just fascism on the rise...
Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
Nothing to see here.


That's what Trump wants you to think. Nothing here, just Russia helping him, ANTIFA not a threat at all, Barr and Trump election meddling with post office and scaring people about mail in voting. Nothing to see here, just fascism on the rise...


Facism from the democrats side, I think, either way, bringing the government down in spite of the will of the people.
j/c:

I am not as educated on politics as most of you guys, but I see a ton of posts about how bad Russia is. I'm not arguing that point, but why is there not more talk about China? From my limited readings, China seems to be far more dangerous than Russia, mainly due to all the ties they have in almost every aspect of our society?
Because China is about economics.

That’s a fight capitalism wages with the help of government. Which by the way, republicans have done a terrible job doing under trump.

China isn’t trying to change our way of life. Russia is.

Russia is our greatest adversary. They are the ones who actively meddle and attempt to hack voting booths. They help cause massive division in the Middle East, as well as threaten our allies in Western Europe. They are the active warfare threat, whether on the ground or currently cyber.

The fight with China is an economic fight. That’s two different situations that requires two different strategies, fought on two different platforms.



I disagree given from what I have read. But again, I am not the political expert you are and not as objective as you are.

I think China has their hands in almost every thing we do. I think we owe them untold dollars. I think they are probably the most exploitative nation in the world. Folks in Hong Kong might agree.

I have a sneaking feeling that the spotlight on Russia instead of China as our most dangerous enemy has a lot to do w/the liberal media and the Democratic party.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I disagree given from what I have read. But again, I am not the political expert you are and not as objective as you are.

I think China has their hands in almost every thing we do. I think we owe them untold dollars. I think they are probably the most exploitative nation in the world. Folks in Hong Kong might agree.

I have a sneaking feeling that the spotlight on Russia instead of China as our most dangerous enemy has a lot to do w/the liberal media and the Democratic party.


oh ok. you wasn't actually trying to ask a question, you just wanted to put yet another "blame the lib" narrative out there.

and i fell for it again.
Gee, I wish I could be more like you, because you know, you never play "blame the GOP game."

China is a much bigger enemy of the United States than Russia, but you keep drinking the Democratic cool aide.
anyways,

Barr pulled a really good con when during his confirmation hearing with his whole "i don't have anything left to lose" rhetoric.

what he really meant, apparently, was that he was more than happy to be Trump's henchmen. trying to intimidate people, attempt to confirm his conspiracy theories, etc.

Obviously independents and liberals had nothing to do with Sessions recusing himself from the Russia probe and ultimately stepping down. However, i think enough time has passed to admit that the country was better off with Sessions as AG than Barr, as crazy as this ends up being.

Sessions at least tried to keep the DoJ somewhat independent, and knew where the line was. Barr just doesn't care one bit. there's nothing he won't do to run interference for Trump.

Trump thinks these institutions are for his personal use. it's why he trashes Wray, his own hand-picked FBI director, non stop. it's why he trashed Sessions non-stop.

It's why he trashes anybody he hires non-stop the last 4 years. you don't work there to make the country better. you work there to confirm whatever pops up in trump's head.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Gee, I wish I could be more like you, because you know, you never play "blame the GOP game."

China is a much bigger enemy of the United States than Russia, but you keep drinking the Democratic cool aide.


umm...you're the one blaming the liberal media for whatever. i mean, you're really proving you don't even know the fundamentals of what you're talking about.

i laid out for you why Russia and China are two different situations. i've got into a bit of detail as to why.

you've gone into ZERO detail. and you know why?

because you already admitted you don't know much about this. so i don't understand how somebody who doesn't know jack crap - not even the basics - can have such a strong opinion on why China isn't talked about as much as Russia.

that would be like me having a strong opinion on computer programming...despite not knowing the basics of computer programming.

if thats the kind of crap you taught students, i'm glad you aren't a teacher anymore.

if you're so concerned about China, make a thread about them.

you seem to always wonder why something isn't as big as you think it is, but then never do anything about it.

okie dokie.
and by the way, here's some more information for you, ya know, cause you admit you don't know much about this topic.

Barr wasn't brought in by Trump to deal with China. Trump was specifically brought in by Trump to run interference on the Mueller report and anything else dealing with Russia and the election.

that's also a big reason as to why in THIS thread, nobody is talking about china.

but carry on.
This is the thing about you and the left. You can't just discuss the issues. You constantly resort to personal insults.

But, I guess, that is a sign of higher emotional intelligence.
I’m literally discussing the issues while you whine about nothing.

You haven’t responded once to the details. You’re doing exactly what people who don’t know what they’re talking about do.
What? You brought up some stupid crap about teaching. You acted like economics were not important. You completely ignored the claws that China has on almost every aspect of our nation. You would not even talk about Hong Kong and China's oppression.

Typical left BS. All hot air and no substance. You can go ahead and make another personal attack such as the earlier teacher reference, but I'm done responding for now. I said what I wanted to say and I am not going to lower myself to exchanging persona insults.

Bottom line..........in my opinion...........China is a bigger enemy than Russia.
umm, didn't you say i was drinking the kool-aid?

now you wanna turn around and play victim.

god you are so fake.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I disagree given from what I have read. But again, I am not the political expert you are and not as objective as you are.

I think China has their hands in almost every thing we do. I think we owe them untold dollars. I think they are probably the most exploitative nation in the world. Folks in Hong Kong might agree.

I have a sneaking feeling that the spotlight on Russia instead of China as our most dangerous enemy has a lot to do w/the liberal media and the Democratic party.


Depends on 2 things. How you define threat and what you are reading.

If you consider threat in an all encompassing term then yes, China is probably the biggest threat as far as biggest global competitor. Most of what they do is what any country does to secure their place in global society. As far as I can tell, the biggest thing they do wrong is the "stealing" of intellectual property. I put stealing in quotes because they are not sneaking unknown into a company to to obtain the information. The information is being given "voluntarily". Voluntarily is in quotes because it isn't truly voluntary but coerced. China tells companies that you cannot sell in our country unless you partner with a Chinese company. Because of the billions of people in China, companies agree and in the process have to allow the Chinese company access to otherwise proprietary information/technologies. These companies then share that information with other Chinese companies - I think companies that the same mother company own. This is my understanding.

Russia on the other hand cannot compete economically with us or China. Their threat is a direct threat towards our Democracy. The most wrong thing that Russia is doing is trying to interfere with our election process. This is not opinion, this is fact. The confusion lies is the uncertainty as to whether or not the trump campaign conspired with Russia in 2016. China likely has similar if not better ability to interfere, but to date there is no substantial evidence to suggest that they have.

As for who you read, if you read MSN etc it is all about Russia because they hate trump and despise Republicans. If you read things like breitbart and Fox then it is all about China because they had Dems/libs and love trump and will echo trumps message and that message is China = Bad, nothing wrong with Russia. Trying to find a good non-partisan source is so hard now a days. Business insider is pretty unbiased, some shows on POTUS radio (though definitely not all) - Micheal Smerconish leans right but is very very fair, Dan Abrams is really far and unbiased as well. Alternatively, I try to read both CNN and FOX to hear both sides and come to an independent conclusion based on the arguments, but that double the time investment.
Fair response.

For the record, I try not to read much from Fox or CNN. When I research a topic, I do my best to read as many articles as I can from more reliable sources. I then look for patterns that are based more on fact and less on propaganda.

China is a real threat. And it is nothing new. I think their control of American businesses and various media outlets shield them from the scrutiny they deserve.

One last word, it's a huge mistake when folks like Swish try to downplay the role economics play globally. Getting distracted by "feelings" and social justice.

Follow the money to find out who the true exploiters are.
Bro what the hell are you talking about?

I literally mentioned economics with China and you once again blatantly ignore that.

I call you names because you deserve it. And you STILL won’t make a thread about China. All you do is whine, no action.
Your aggressive attitude is a deflective technique. I know you mentioned economics. But, you are downplaying the significance of it. China has gained control of much of our business and what we are told. Hell, they control what we think. Money is the driving force and to pretend it's not is ignorant.
You literally said the same thing I said yesterday.

But you asked WHY they aren’t catching as much attention as Russia. This is a thread about Barr, and Barr was brought in to covers trump ass on Russia.

If you want to talk about China, since this is a thread about Barr, make a thread.

If not, shut up.
You have no authority to tell me what to do. And, I'm not surprised that you don't want the ugly truth about China.
Shut up.
LOL...........yet another example of the left having "higher emotional intelligence."
Lol bro you use to send PMs threatening to meet up and fight.

Please lmfao
This is hilarious. We are in the middle of our presidential election process. It's Russia who backs Trump. Every decision and the direction our nation will take moving forward is dependent on the outcome of this election. Our very election process is under attack by Russia with direct help from Trump.

China has us by the balls economically. That's because they're smarter bout business and trade.

The person screaming the loudest trying to distract away from the fact that our democracy being under attack doesn't even want to start a thread to discuss it. Just like he usually does he would rather go from thread to thread trying to regurgitate the same thing in an effort to take away from what's going on.

He's played the tough guy, threatened people physically and even threatened to sue a board member. Not he's trying to play some victim?

rofl
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
You have no authority to tell me what to do. And, I'm not surprised that you don't want the ugly truth about China.


"You can't tell me what to do, you're not my real dad!"
Same old crap every day. Clowning on Vers becoming the new Vambo is now a daily occurrence. When did defending normalcy and the American way of life become a partisan thing? And now we are supposed to argue who is the greater threat, Russia or China (Vers distraction tactic) in a thread about the much greater threat of having William Barr as AG.


Justice Dept. deems New York City, Portland and Seattle 'anarchist jurisdictions'

Democratic mayors and governors earlier this month bashed the effort to withhold funds from their areas as illegal and a distraction from Covid deaths.

The Department of Justice on Monday released a list of cities it has deemed "anarchist jurisdictions" under President Donald Trump's instructions earlier this month to review federal funding to state and local governments where violence or vandalism has taken place during protests.

That memo directed Attorney General William Barr, in consultation with Office of Management and Budget Director Russ Vought and acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad Wolf, to identify jurisdictions "that have permitted violence and the destruction of property to persist and have refused to undertake reasonable measures to counteract these criminal activities (anarchist jurisdictions)."

On Monday, the Justice Department labeled New York City, Portland and Seattle such areas, though the department said it was still working to identify other jurisdictions that meet criteria outlined in Trump's memo.

"We cannot allow federal tax dollars to be wasted when the safety of the citizenry hangs in the balance," Barr said. "It is my hope that the cities identified by the Department of Justice today will reverse course and become serious about performing the basic function of government and start protecting their own citizens."

As part of its rationale for labeling the cities as such, the Justice Department cited city councils voting to cut police funding, the refusal to prosecute protesters for charges like disorderly conduct and unlawful assembly, the rejection of federal intervention, and law enforcement officials suffering injuries during violent outbursts.

Democratic mayors and governors earlier this month bashed Trump over his latest effort aimed at what he calls "Democrat-run" cities and states. They said it was illegal for the executive branch to unilaterally withhold funding from their jurisdictions and that Trump was merely seeking another distraction from the U.S. coronavirus death toll, which has now topped 200,000.

"It is another attempt to kill New York City," New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo told reporters during a late-night conference call earlier this month, adding Trump "better have an army if he thinks he's going to walk down the streets in New York."

Washington Gov. Jay Inslee called Trump's efforts "the latest baseless, petty and divisive move by President Trump to distract from his abject failure to protect Americans from COVID-19."

"With more than 185,000 lives lost on his watch, we won't forget," he said. "The president cannot and will not defund us. He is not a dictator and laws still apply to him."

At the time, a White House official said the effort was aimed at withholding grant money from such jurisdictions it deemed to be "anarchist."

"We're not going to keep providing those funds from the federal level if they're not using them," the official said.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice...ctions-n1240600
Love how the gang sticks together. You can't discuss topics rationally. You insult, name call, and gang-up on anyone who doesn't follow along w/your BS. Y'all are classic bullies. Big mouths and no backbone.
Pointing out facts can be a point of contention. Unless of course you deny that you threatened to sue a board member and wanted to fight swish. Now you play the victim. Inconvenient truth is not an attack. They are facts.

I thought you promoted truth and facts?

And I've got plenty of backbone. Just in case that's another in your list of veiled threats.
As a former teacher, I was taught how to identify bullying behavior and even witnessed students who would bully others. One of the classic examples of it is when bullies attack another student and then assign even more labels to that student if that student points out the bullying.

I find it comical that those who constantly practice middle school bullying techniques think that they are the ones who have a "higher emotional intelligence."

This crap has been going on in this forum for a long time. There are a group of bullies in this forum who immediately start insulting, using name calling, and ganging up on anyone who dares to speak out in opposition to their one-sided beliefs. Higher emotional intelligence, my ass!
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Love how the gang sticks together. You can't discuss topics rationally. You insult, name call, and gang-up on anyone who doesn't follow along w/your BS. Y'all are classic bullies. Big mouths and no backbone.


You're the butt of all the jokes.
Quote:
You're the butt of all the jokes.


There is that higher emotional intelligence thing again.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
As a former teacher, I was taught how to identify bullying behavior and even witnessed students who would bully others. One of the classic examples of it is when bullies attack another student and then assign even more labels to that student if that student points out the bullying.

I find it comical that those who constantly practice middle school bullying techniques think that they are the ones who have a "higher emotional intelligence."

This crap has been going on in this forum for a long time. There are a group of bullies in this forum who immediately start insulting, using name calling, and ganging up on anyone who dares to speak out in opposition to their one-sided beliefs. Higher emotional intelligence, my ass!


Sometimes people get stuck on something traumatic and they just can't move on... Acceptance is the first step in healing.
You know how to identify a bully because you were a teacher? That whole looking in the mirror thing can be difficult.

Would you say challenging someone who disagrees with you to fight as being a bully? How about threatening to sue someone when you get offended? Would that qualify?
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG


China has us by the balls economically.
Close.
Quote:
That's because they're smarter bout business and trade.
Incorrect.

They are close to having us by the nads because they pay their workers next to nothing. AND can sell their products cheaper. And what do too many Americans do? Demand higher wages, more vacation, etc, so that they can buy the cheaper products.

The problem for China is, they can't feed their people, so the U.S. hit them where it hurt: Food.

Many on here went ballistic on this......"it's going to hurt our farmers....etc etc" And yes, short term it has, and will. But, long term, it should work, according to the Ag industry.

Remember China deciding to not buy our soybeans? But with in a couple of weeks, they were buying our soybeans from S. America? And within months started buying soy beans from us again?

That is how a new trade deal is worked. They use their power (cheap products because they don't pay workers for crap), and we use our ag. power, because they can't feed their people.

I've explained it at least twice on here. I've spoken personally to a gentleman that is on a couple of Ag commissions - fed. - and what he said would happen has, in fact, happened.
I don't disagree with you completely. But let's be honest here. China found other sources to but their food from during Trump's embargo. The new trade deal hasn't worked. What china did was once again smart on their part.

They bought our soy beans elsewhere. You don't think that's a smart move on their part? there people were not going hungry. They managed to feed themselves without a trade agreement. That's why unlike Trump claimed, a trade agreement with China was not "easy or quick". And arch, most of the third world pays workers next to nothing. That's why so many of the products we buy don't just come from China but many Asian nations.

Here's a huge portion of the problem that nobody sees playing as big of a factor as it does. Over 40% of Americans have less than $400 saved for an emergency. They can't afford to buy American products in the first place. Until that is fixed there's really no actual hope of turning this around.

I edited this to give you another example. China has already made deals with African nations. They are building infrastructure in Africa in exchange for trade deals. Africa in the richest continent left on the globe in terms of minerals and precious metals.

They have set themselves up for long term economic riches moving forward. Us? Yes, like it or not, China is holding the lead in the future economic power of the globe. And it's really not that close.
I think you missed the part where China is still buying our beans. They caved early on. i know, I know, 'but trump....' That is your bottom line.

And I guarantee if Obama had done it, you would've supported it.
And you missed the part where they did an end around and were buying our beans from a third party which did not pressure them into making a deal.

Who said I don't support the deal that was reached? It's better than the deal we had if that's what you're trying to imply. It didn't however actually solve any of the issues claimed that it would. They were buying our beans before Trump worked on a trade deal and they're buying them now.
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg


They are close to having us by the nads because they pay their workers next to nothing. AND can sell their products cheaper. And what do too many Americans do? Demand higher wages, more vacation, etc, so that they can buy the cheaper products.


The average American works more hours for the same amount of money that they earned in the 1960s...

I guess we cut slice worker salaries and really stick it to China, but at what costs?

Quote:

The problem for China is, they can't feed their people, so the U.S. hit them where it hurt: Food.


That really hasn't been a problem for the Chinese economy since the 1980s... It's a problem for rural China, but those areas aren't important for their economy.

Quote:

Many on here went ballistic on this......"it's going to hurt our farmers....etc etc" And yes, short term it has, and will. But, long term, it should work, according to the Ag industry.

Remember China deciding to not buy our soybeans? But with in a couple of weeks, they were buying our soybeans from S. America? And within months started buying soy beans from us again?

That is how a new trade deal is worked. They use their power (cheap products because they don't pay workers for crap), and we use our ag. power, because they can't feed their people.

I've explained it at least twice on here. I've spoken personally to a gentleman that is on a couple of Ag commissions - fed. - and what he said would happen has, in fact, happened.


Maybe? I don't think it was necessarily a terrible move (though if the US government wants to hurt our farmers for international politics reasons, then the government should buy the food as a bailout)...

Going after China for technology is better. I am generally in favor of clamping down on companies like Huawei...
j/c:

Quote:
The World Is Falling for China’s Hong Kong Trap

With the national security law, the CCP created for itself the perfect opportunity to pit China against “foreign hostile forces.”

By Andrei Lungu
July 18, 2020

The World Is Falling for China’s Hong Kong Trap
Credit: Flickr/ Studio Incendo

The Chinese leadership’s decision to introduce national security legislation in Hong Kong has attracted global attention and condemnation. This move was unsurprising, as the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) has been trying to tighten control of the autonomous city over the past years and the lack of a national security law has been a sore spot for almost two decades. Yet it was also unexpected – it came at a moment when, as the report of a well-known think tank with ties to the country’s Ministry of State Security described, China faces the most difficult geopolitical environment since 1989, with anti-China sentiment at its highest.

Introducing national security legislation in Hong Kong less than a year after massive protests and a resounding electoral defeat, just four months before Legislative Council elections — all while the COVID-19 pandemic has focused the world’s attention and criticism on China, countries everywhere are rethinking their China policies and exploring how to shorten supply chains, and the United States government is hitting China in almost every way it can — makes no sense. Chinese leaders certainly understood that such a move would be bad for their country from a diplomatic, geopolitical, or economic point of view. Yet they did it anyway. Why?

Because, while bad for China, it makes a lot of sense politically for the CCP, Xi Jinping and the current leadership. For example, Party leaders have already been warned, sometimes publicly, by prominent Chinese international relations experts about the risks and dangers of the rising trend of aggressive diplomacy. Yet even when they saw the negative consequences unfolding before their eyes, they still didn’t abandon this aggressive style. The general view outside of China is that this policy has been adopted largely to stoke Chinese nationalism and shore up support for the party, regardless of its damage to China. Unfortunately, other Chinese actions are judged strictly from a realist foreign policy perspective, without paying enough attention to domestic pressures, party dynamics and political motivations, which are sometimes more prominent in Beijing than in other democratic capitals.

This raises the worrying possibility that introducing the national security law now (as opposed to sometime later) isn’t so much about Hong Kong, but about Beijing. If we accept that Xi and CCP leaders were aware of the blowback their Hong Kong decision would generate, then one of their main reasons for taking this decision now could have been specifically to strengthen the party’s domestic image and popularity, while generating foreign attacks on China, which will increase nationalism.

Even though China successfully managed to deal with the COVID-19 epidemic and later contrasted this approach to the situation in western Europe and the United States, improving its domestic image in some segments of the population, there are still internal risks, especially economic ones. The impact of the shutdown in China and the possible return of the coronavirus, combined with the economic downturn in export markets and trade and economic tensions with the U.S., might spell trouble later this year.



China’s GDP already suffered a 6.8 percent contraction in the first quarter, something unprecedented in the reform and opening-up period. Unofficial figures estimated the real unemployment rate after the shutdown at almost 10 percent. Premier Li Keqiang’s candid admission that 600 million Chinese citizens still have monthly incomes under 1,000 renminbi speaks to the economic problems the government faces, as does the attempt to boost employment through the “street-stall economy.” Yet the debates and contradicting messages from different parts of the government and the CCP regarding street stalls hint at the fact that there isn’t unity within the Party leadership on how to tackle the economic issues China faces. And all these economic issues could one day translate into political issues. Aware of this fact, in June, the CCP established a task force to boost political security. Considering the economic outlook and the general political climate, combined with the difficult international environment, Xi might be feeling pressure and seeing potential risks from both the Party leadership and the wider public.

What better way to preempt such political risks than shoring up support for the Party by portraying it as the defender and savior of China’s territorial integrity, sovereignty, and dignity? While over the two months before the Hong Kong legislation was announced, there were growing calls in China for a military takeover of Taiwan, such an action would be extremely risky and costly. Hong Kong, on the other hand, is an easier target, but no less fruitful when it comes to playing to nationalist sentiment among the Chinese public. The nationalist bent among Chinese citizens has already reached such heights that authorities had to shut down numerous social media accounts that went too far, including by claiming that some neighboring countries, such as Kazakhstan, are eager to “return” to China.

It was very predictable that the United States, the United Kingdom, and others would criticize the law and might even impose sanctions. Protests in Hong Kong, including violent ones, were also predictable. But, while costly, there is no reaction that the Party cannot manage, as it is clear there’s no appetite in Washington, London, or Brussels for a huge fight over Hong Kong, with all the inevitable economic consequences. The external criticism would only strengthen the CCP, which could depict it as foreign interference in Hong Kong, one of its main arguments for the national security legislation.

And so things fell into place. All over the world, there has been an uproar. The U.S. secretary of state announced that Washington no longer considers Hong Kong autonomous, setting the stage for imposing economic costs. Members of the U.S. Congress have proposed bills to punish China and its leadership; one that proposes recognizing Hong Kong as a country is especially far-fetched (and short-sighted, as it plays right into the CCP’s hands, lending credence to the theory that the United States’ ultimate goal is Hong Kong independence). London criticized the “serious breach” of the Sino-British Joint Declaration and announced measures of its own. The U.S., the U.K., Canada and Australia issued a joint statement condemning the move. The G-7 followed suit. The EU issued its own statement. A U.N. Security Council meeting on Hong Kong was unsuccessfully called. The Party created for itself the perfect opportunity to pit China against “foreign hostile forces.”

Even if many foreign critics are placing the blame on the Party, picturing the situation in Hong Kong as a struggle for freedom, in China, over the past year, the extensive propaganda apparatus has painted it as a struggle for China’s sovereignty against Hong Kong “rioters” and “separatists.” At home, the CCP can present its decision as perfectly legal and even a responsibility that fell on the Chinese leadership, because of Hong Kong’s failure to enact national security legislation. Meanwhile, the United States is portrayed as the “black hand” sowing chaos in Hong Kong.

While there is no clear data from public surveys, the general impression is that there is only limited sympathy in mainland China for Hong Kong’s struggle. As calls for independence in Hong Kong are intensifying, while foreign powers are becoming more critical about Beijing’s actions, fanning nationalism in China with become ever simpler. And as long as the CCP holds tight and doesn’t appear weak in the face of foreign pressure, it can strengthen its public support.

Throughout the years, there have been worries that the Chinese leadership might one day adopt an aggressive foreign policy, or even start a war, just to distract from domestic problems and rally public support. Hong Kong offers an opportunity for the same positive results for the leadership, but without the risks and costs of a war.
Diplomat Brief
Weekly Newsletter
N

Get first-read access to major articles yet to be released, as well as links to thought-provoking commentaries and in-depth articles from our Asia-Pacific correspondents.
Subscribe Newsletter

It is difficult to say whether the Chinese leadership decided to introduce the national security law in Hong Kong now specifically to pit China against foreign critics and inflame nationalist sentiments, or whether the main driver was simply to deal with the situation in Hong Kong, with the timing being coincidental and inflamed nationalism being just a beneficial side-effect. Whatever the reason, their decision clearly illustrates how little Chinese leaders care about geopolitical or economic costs when compared to political imperatives of strengthening internal control. Thus, the hard reality is that foreign pressure on China regarding on Hong Kong will only strengthen the CCP’s domestic position, if it isn’t well thought-out.

What does this mean for U.S. and Western policymakers? First of all, a thorough examination of Chinese public opinion, either through surveys or social media analysis, is vital in charting the right path and should be used to generate ideas about how to engage with the Chinese public. The obsession with imposing costs and “not letting China get away with it easily” ignores the entire domestic political landscape and simply assumes that the CCP leadership is driven by a combination of ideology (regarding the desire for stronger control) and realpolitik (regarding the use of a simple cost-benefit analysis of economic and diplomatic consequences). It ignores any political motivations driving the Chinese leadership’s decisions.

Unless the United States is willing to impose devastating costs on China or even go to war, this move cannot be undone. Meanwhile, all these measures to punish China and drive up the costs of this decision aren’t helping Hong Kong, but they are strengthening the CCP’s narrative of “foreign hostile forces” trying to split Hong Kong and create chaos in China. If U.S. policymakers are honest when they claim that the Party, not the Chinese people, is their real enemy, then strengthening its domestic position by driving the Chinese people and the CCP closer together is a huge mistake. Right now, the United States is focusing too much on measures that would punish China (or even worse, Hong Kong) and too little on how to engage Chinese citizens and win them over. Rhetoric is also important – how many statements critical of the national security legislation began by stating, “We believe Hong Kong is and must always remain a part of China.”

Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.

Because of the Great Firewall, but also because of neglect, the Chinese public has largely been abandoned to CCP propaganda. The U.S. and its allies are thus caught between a rock and a very hard place: Do nothing and the Party leadership gets its way; attack “China” and it might drive up nationalism and strengthen support for the CCP. This dilemma pertains to more issues than simply Hong Kong. Some in China undoubtedly see beyond the propaganda and understand that Hong Kong’s struggle is about freedom, not separatism. Others might not necessarily trust the official narrative, but still worry about Chinese sovereignty over Hong Kong and how the United States might have malign intentions. Yet many who simply do not have access to fair, unbiased information have been influenced by Party propaganda, and believe that Hong Kong “separatists” and “foreign hostile forces” need to be dealt with, which the CCP is now doing. This is a reality that the United States and many other countries seem to have almost no interest in addressing. Yet simply ignoring it will not make it go away.

Fighting for freedom is important in this struggle for global supremacy between the United States and China, but if the Chinese people end up seeing Hong Kong through a purely nationalist lens, it will only sabotage the larger fight for freedom in China. Foreign governments, and even Hong Kong protesters, have to take all these nuances into account when deciding the next steps. They must think carefully about how to counter CCP propaganda and break its monopoly on shaping the domestic narrative. If not, the United States and the West might end up unintentionally helping Xi and the Party, while still losing Hong Kong.

Andrei Lungu is president of The Romanian Institute for the Study of the Asia-Pacific (RISAP).

https://thediplomat.com/2020/07/the-world-is-falling-for-chinas-hong-kong-trap/

Quote:
China Is a Dangerous Rival, and America Should Treat It Like One

Enough with the endless talks and handshakes. We need to untie the American economy from China.

By Derek Scissors and Daniel Blumenthal

Mr. Scissors and Mr. Blumenthal are experts on China at the American Enterprise Institute.

Jan. 14, 2019

Under President Xi Jinping, China has moved to a defense industrial policy that translates in English to “civil-military fusion.”


The Trump administration has been clear about its view of China. A 2017 national security strategy document called China a “revisionist” power attempting to reorder international politics to suit its interests. It’s difficult to think otherwise given Beijing’s military buildup, its attempts to undermine American influence and power, its retaliations against American allies such as Canada, and its economic actions.

How to respond is more controversial. After years of unsuccessful talks and handshake deals with Beijing, the United States should change course and begin cutting some of its economic ties with China. Such a separation would stop intellectual property theft, cut off an important source of support to the People’s Liberation Army and hold companies that are involved in Chinese human rights abuses accountable.

This will be no easy task. Some industries will have problems finding new suppliers or buyers, and there are entrenched constituencies that support doing business with China. They argue that any pullback could threaten economic growth. But even if American exports to China fell by half, it would be the equivalent of less than one-half of 1 percent of gross domestic product. The cost of reducing Chinese imports is harder to assess, but there are multiple countries that can substitute for China-based production, none of them strategic rivals and trade predators.

The United States economy and its national security have been harmed by China’s rampant theft of intellectual property and the requirement that American companies that want to do business in the country hand over their technology. These actions threaten America’s comparative advantage in innovation and its military edge.



Even uncoerced foreign investment in technology can strengthen the Chinese military-industrial complex, especially since the Communist Party has moved, since President Xi Jinping took office in 2012, to a defense industrial policy that translates in English to “civil-military fusion.” In practice, many Chinese and foreign “civilian” companies serve as de facto suppliers for the Chinese Army and its technological-industrial base. Residents and visitors are subject to constant visual surveillance, and a nascent “social credit program” in which disobedience to party dictates is reflected in credit scores, which could affect everything from home purchases to job opportunities. These forms of social control often use technology developed by Western companies.

The United States should make major adjustments to its economic relationship with China. Comprehensive tariffs, which harm American consumers and workers unnecessarily, are not the right reaction. But neither are admonishments to “just let the market work.”



The scale of China’s industrial-policy distortions, technology thievery and efforts to modernize its army are too significant for such superficial responses. The American government must intervene in the market when it comes to China, although that intervention should be limited to areas that are genuinely vital to national security, prosperity and democratic values.

For example, the United States government should impose sanctions on the Chinese beneficiaries of intellectual property theft and coercion, in cooperation with our allies. This was the legitimate target of the United States trade representative’s original inquiry in August 2017 under Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974, but the policy steps chosen — tariffs — focus on the trade deficit instead of loss of intellectual property.

Rather than across-the-board tariffs, Chinese companies receiving stolen or coerced intellectual property should not be allowed to do business with firms in America or, with our allies’ cooperation, in Europe and Japan. The United States should also intervene to halt foreign investment in any technology that assists the Chinese Army or contributes to internal repression and limit the access to global markets of any Chinese company that is tied to human rights abuses and army modernization.


Taking these actions would require an enormous amount of intelligence collection by American security agencies as well as crucial information from American companies. The latter is difficult to obtain: Out of fear of Chinese retribution, the foreign business community will cooperate only if there is a clear, bipartisan and long-term commitment by the American government.


While the United States must act unilaterally if necessary, the cooperation of allies such as Japan, Germany and Britain would make these steps more effective. Such countries have their own interests in China. Imposing sanctions in the name of national security on the European Union and China, as the Trump administration has threatened, would unwisely give them common cause.

Previous efforts to assert America’s influence against China, such as the discarded Trans-Pacific Partnership, did not push back effectively on Chinese economic aggression. Working with allies to directly address China’s malfeasance would.

All this means putting China at the top of American international economic priorities and keeping it there for years, without overstating or overreacting to trade disputes with our allies.

The administration has demonstrated some good instincts on China, but it must not be distracted by the next round of Beijing’s false economic promises. Protecting innovation from Chinese attack makes the United States stronger. Hindering the Chinese security apparatus makes external aggression and internal repression more costly for Beijing.

China is our only major trade partner that is also a strategic rival, and we should treat it differently from friendly countries with whom we have disputes. If Washington wants the global free market to work, it must intervene to blunt Beijing’s belligerence.

Derek Scissors (@DerekScissors1) is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, where Daniel Blumenthal (@DAlexBlumenthal) is the director of Asian studies.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/opinion/us-china-trade.html

Wow.... this thread about Barr and the direction towards autocrat governance in the USA surely went sideways in a hurry.

I see that the topic got off track with a post about China ... and then the insults started when someone accurately pointed out that talking about China in a thread about Barr was deflection. smh. But here we are talking about China.

Trump and the GOP are really great about directing the narrative and making sure people are not focused on topics show them in the worst light. Why talk about Russia when we can talk about China? I mean - Putin's the biggest danger to the world and he is actively trying to get Trump re-elected ... but we should talk about China. And definitely not shine a spotlight and what a POS William Barr is and how he lies and acts like Trump's clean up man.
Just a wild ass thought here - maybe we can talk about Barr in one thread. China in a different thread. And.... well, best we simply forget about Putin trying to control who the POTUS is, we don't need a thread about that.
This article is from 2018. There are many more like it. I wonder why the a lot of media outlets and the Democratic party are ignoring the threat that China poses?

Btw......I feel that it is legitimate to point out China's dangerous influence on America since others have brought up how Russia is a threat to America. Some might feel they can completely control the narrative by silencing others, but I don't think that is the American way. We all have a voice.

Quote:
China’s interference in U.S. politics is just beginning

Josh Rogin
Columnist
September 20, 2018 at 6:35 p.m. EDT

The Trump administration is publicly calling out China for attempting to influence U.S. politics ahead of the midterm elections. Privately, the U.S. government is looking past November as Beijing expands its already significant capability to interfere in American democracy over the long term. The United States must be aware of the growing threat and mount a response.

As the trade war between Washington and Beijing escalates, China is using economic leverage to exert pressure on the U.S. political system. Tactics already deployed include pressuring U.S. companies trying to do business with China and punishing U.S. exporters, especially in locations where President Trump’s political base resides.

Trump, taking this activity personally, tweeted this week that China is “actively trying to impact and change our election by attacking our farmers, ranchers and industrial workers because of their loyalty to me.” Trump threatened unspecified retaliation and escalated the trade dispute by announcing additional tariffs on $200 billion of Chinese goods.


While the trade war rages in public, behind the scenes the U.S. government is preparing for the possibility that the Chinese government will decide to weaponize the influence network inside the United States that it has been building for years. Although Beijing has not yet employed Russian-style “active measures,” it has these capabilities at the ready.

“We’ve seen a lot of preparatory work by the Chinese, and we understand what the realm of possibilities would be,” an administration official told me. “Our position now is to make folks aware of the danger that exists. These Chinese activities are all about influencing our democratic processes.”

The Chinese government denies all accusations of political interference abroad and typically paints such reporting as anti-Chinese, Cold War thinking. The Chinese government complained after national security adviser John Bolton listed China as one of four countries that interfere in our political processes on ABC News on Aug. 19. The Trump administration responded to the complaints by asking Beijing to confirm that it does not engage in such activities. The Chinese government changed the subject.


Economic coercion is only one Chinese interference tactic. Another is propaganda through media manipulation. This week, the Justice Department ordered two Chinese state-owned media outlets operating in Washington to register as foreign agents. This recalls action taken against Russian state-owned media outlets after the U.S. intelligence community reported that Moscow used them in its 2016 interference campaign.

The Chinese Communist Party and its allies have also bought up several Chinese-language media outlets inside the United States as part of an effort to influence overseas Chinese. That effort includes government officials building relationships with Chinese Students and Scholars Associations to help snuff out criticism of China on campuses.

Finally, Beijing interferes through co-opting American elites and persuading them to push Chinese Communist Party messages. Under President Xi Jinping, the party has been ramping up its comprehensive foreign influence operations strategy, known as “united front” work. Still described in Maoist terms — to mobilize the party’s friends to strike at the party’s enemies — the system is overseen by the party’s United Front Work Department.


“The UFWD directs ‘overseas Chinese work,’ which seeks to co-opt ethnic Chinese individuals and communities living outside China, while a number of other key affiliated organizations guided by China’s broader United Front strategy conduct influence operations targeting foreign actors and states,” says a report released last month by the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission.

The report reveals the internal structure of Beijing’s foreign influence machine, the web of foreign organizations tied to the united front system and their extensive financial relationships with U.S. organizations, academic institutions and think tanks.

In March, the United Front Work Department largely absorbed three other Communist Party departments, including the State Ethnic Affairs Commission, the State Administration for Religious Affairs and the Overseas Chinese Affairs Office of the State Council. That synergy allows the party to seamlessly repress Uighurs inside China while threatening their family members abroad. For Beijing, it’s all one strategy.


Add to that China’s traditional espionage and hacking, which FBI Director Christopher A. Wray called the “broadest, most pervasive, most threatening challenge” our country faces in counterintelligence. The potential for Beijing to disrupt American politics is far beyond what we are prepared to deal with.

Looking at Russia’s situation, Beijing may calculate that the costs of a massive, obvious political interference campaign are too high. But as tensions continue to rise, Beijing’s cost-benefit analysis may change. Meanwhile, the ongoing, quieter Chinese interference continues largely unaddressed.

The U.S. government should communicate clearly to Beijing that political interference won’t be tolerated, while raising the costs higher, inoculating our systems and preparing countermeasures. China must be compelled to operate inside our borders in a transparent manner consistent with U.S. laws and values.


The lesson of the 2016 election is that we must confront foreign interference in American politics before it becomes a full-blown crisis. China’s growing capabilities to undermine our democratic systems can no longer be ignored.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...250f_story.html


Aren't you Captain Stay on Topic? This thread isn't about China.
Originally Posted By: cle23

Aren't you Captain Stay on Topic? This thread isn't about China.

Apparently he's taking cues from Lindsey Graham.
My opinion is that China is much more dangerous to America than Russia is. Thus, if people want to keep bringing up Russia, I feel that I am justified in pointing out China's role on America. I am not asking that anyone agree w/me. Just providing some knowledge. I don't think that is a bad thing.


Quote:
Exclusive: How the FBI combats China's political meddling
Bethany Allen-Ebrahimian
Bethany Allen-Ebrahimian, author of China


In May 2019, the FBI's Foreign Influence Task Force quietly added a unit aimed at countering China's political influence in the United States. In an exclusive interview, an FBI official reveals for the first time the bureau's approach to countering China's interference in local and state politics.

Why it matters: "This is ultimately a potential systemic challenge to the world order that we've had for the past several decades," the FBI official tells Axios of China's efforts.

The big picture: There is a growing body of evidence that China devotes massive resources to influencing the political environments of foreign countries, including the United States.

Unlike Russia, the Chinese Communist Party focuses on cultivating long-term relationships and using economic levers to coerce people into compliance, rather than targeting a specific election event.

“For a long time we focused on the federal level, but we really have come to understand that the Chinese are playing a long game with the political influence in this country," the FBI official said. "So we have spent a lot more time and energy trying to understand the state and local people-to-people influences going on."

Over the weekend, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo warned that China is targeting U.S. local and state officials.

China's influence playbook centers around economic leverage stemming from its growing wealth. That includes:

The use of economic “carrots and sticks” at the local and state levels.

“Conduit contributions” to illegally funnel Chinese funds into U.S. politics.

The use of Chinese government-linked proxies to cultivate relationships of dependency with a variety of American individuals and organizations.

And it happens at every level of government and society. “The toolkit works just as well on a mayor as it would work on somebody in higher elected office," the official said.

The FBI task force's threshold for determining what counts as malign foreign influence is a four-word rubric: “subversive, undeclared, criminal and coercive.” The FBI official, who spoke to Axios anonymously, defined the terms:

Subversive: "Activities that are undermining democratic processes, or people's ability to cast a vote."

Undeclared: "Any activity where the hand of the government, the hand of the foreign government is opaque, is non-transparent to the target audience.”

Criminal: "There's a suite of election crimes in the U.S. And we're concerned about those crimes. .. So campaign finance violations, this is a big part of what we're concerned about — foreign money entering U.S. political races."

Coercive: "If there is some sort of quid pro quo, some sort of economic carrots and stick, it's a tool that the Chinese use quite a lot.”

The focus is on party-connected actors, the official said.

“We're certainly not looking at, you know, all Chinese students or all Chinese Americans," said the official. “This isn't something that we only see happening with ethnic Chinese.”

How the task force works: The initiative, which is part of the FBI's Foreign Influence Task Force, is housed within the agency's counterintelligence division, with embeds from the criminal investigative, cyber and counterterrorism divisions.

The task force investigates illegal activity and provides defensive briefings — essentially a way to educate companies, organizations, academic institutions and government officials about the potential risks of specific situations.

The bureau is seeing an "increased demand signal" for briefings and similar engagement "from academic partners, from the private sector, from our U.S. government customer and policymakers," the official said.

Their advice: Do everything possible to manage risk.

That means understanding where funding comes from and any organizational ties back to China, as well as engaging in secure travel practices with personal electronic devices and business laptops.

The bottom line: China is increasing its efforts to hold sway over cash-strapped local and state governments.

Companies and organizations must aim for smarter engagement to lessen the risk because “most folks who are already engaged with some aspects of the Chinese government or with a Chinese institution can't just say no,” the official said.

Go deeper: China’s playbook for hooking local governments

Editor's note: This story has been updated to clarify the China-focused unit's connection to the FBI's Foreign Influence Task Force.
Well when people won't listen to your distraction, spam the hell out of the thread with off topic articles... rolleyes
It's wild that the guys who are complaining about things getting off topic are the same guys who hijack thread after thread, including threads I have started about DJax slamming Jewish people, another about vandalizing memorials, another about gang violence in cities, another about Homeless in Democratic cities, etc, etc.

Oh, did anyone see this?


Quote:
Tibetan NYPD officer charged with spying for Chinese government
Josie Ensor
The TelegraphMon, September 21, 2020, 4:09 PM EDT

A New York City police officer has been arrested on charges he was secretly working as an agent of the Chinese government.

Baimadajie Angwang, a community affairs liaison at the 111th Precinct in Queens and a member of the US Marine Corps Reserve, had for years been reporting back to “handlers” in the People’s Republic of China (PRC), according to a criminal complaint filed at a New York federal court.

Mr Angwang, 33, an ethnic Tibetan native of China and a naturalised American citizen, had allegedly been reporting back on the activities of fellow Tibetans in the US since 2014.

According to the charging documents filed on Monday, Mr Angwang also assessed potential Tibetan intelligence sources, and used his position in the New York Police Department (NYPD) to pass along information about its internal workings to the Chinese.


“The investigation has revealed that Angwang had used his official position in the NYPD to provide consulate officials access to senior (police) officials through invitations to official NYPD events,” the complaint said.

Since June 2018, the FBI said Mr Angwang has been "in frequent communication" with an unidentified Chinese consular official he referred to as "Boss."

That same year, he was awarded "Officer of the Month" by the NYPD for his initiative and public service.

Mr Angwang, who served three tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and holds a secret-level security clearance, was reportedly tasked with “neutralizing sources of potential opposition to the policies and authority of the PRC.”

Despite his family being Tibetan, a minority group long oppressed and occupied by Beijing, the FBI claims in the complaint that Mr Angwang’s affiliations with China ran deep. His father is a retired member of the People’s Liberation Army, while his mother is a retired government official and a member of the Chinese Communist Party.

Mr Angwang, who makes about $50,000 (£40,000) a year, in 2016 wired $100,000 to his brother’s account in China, according to investigators. The following month, he sent $50,000 to another account in China, held in someone else’s name.

He initially travelled to the US on a cultural exchange visa. He overstayed a second visa and eventually claimed asylum on the grounds he had been arrested and tortured in China, due partly to his TIbetan ethnicity.

In a detention memo filed on Monday, the US Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of New York, said: “Angwang has travelled back to the PRC on numerous occasions since his asylum application was granted.

“These are not the actions of an individual who fears torture or persecution at the hands of the PRC, thus showing that his US citizenship was secured through false pretenses.”

Prosecutors asked a judge to deny bail because Mr Angwang “presents a serious risk of flight” and is facing criminal charges which hold a maximum possible prison sentence of 55 years.

Dermot Shea, NYPD Police Commissioner, said Mr Angwang had “violated every oath he took in this country," in a statement commenting on the charges. "One to the United States, another to the US Army, and a third to this Police Department.

“From the earliest stages of this investigation, the NYPD's Intelligence and Internal Affairs bureaus worked closely with the FBI's Counterintelligence Division to make sure this individual would be brought to justice."

John Carman, Mr Angwang’s lawyer, declined to comment on the case.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/tibetan-nypd-officer-charged-spying-200900500.html

Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
Well when people won't listen to your distraction, spam the hell out of the thread with off topic articles... rolleyes


It's funny watching people do what they claim to hate. It's funny watching and hearing people become the embodiment of Trump, who they then claim to despise.
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
And you missed the part where they did an end around and were buying our beans from a third party which did not pressure them into making a deal.

Who said I don't support the deal that was reached? It's better than the deal we had if that's what you're trying to imply. It didn't however actually solve any of the issues claimed that it would. They were buying our beans before Trump worked on a trade deal and they're buying them now.



But we were still selling the beans. Places like Brazil just bought more from us to resell to the Chinese.

They had to be paying more to go through a middleman.
I think you may wish to look at the actual facts here. Yes China did buy "some" of our soybeans from other countries. But still much less than before. And they still aren't buying as much as before. They have found other resources. You see, just like our nation doesn't like being trapped into buying goods from China, China doesn't like being trapped into buying food from us. Life is a two way street.

You see, if in fact China was buying as many soybeans through other nations, our farmers wouldn't have been having trouble finding buyers. They wouldn't have been fighting to find storage for crops they suddenly couldn't sell. The government wouldn't have needed to give farmers bailout money if China was buying those soybeans at the same rate as before. But that's not the case.

US farmers wonder what to do with soybean crop

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/nation/2018/11/27/us-farmers-wonder-soybean-crop/38626517/

Even now China isn't purchasing enough from us to meet their trade agreement purchases. They are buying far less from us than before this entire thing started. Sometimes there are consequences when you have a president that doesn't understand how international trade deals work. When a nation realizes they can no loner depend on you, they look elsewhere. Often times you will never get all of their business back..........

China is far behind farm purchases needed to fulfill terms of trade deal with U.S.

China bought less than one-fourth of its promised $36.6 billion yearly U.S. agriculture import target in the first half of 2020, China customs data showed.

There is still time to meet the commitment, however, and strong demand could push China to make record-level soybean and corn purchases this year, analysts said. The U.S. government is predicting one of its biggest soybean and corn harvest seasons ahead.

Still, importing the total amount as set by the phase one trade deal appears a difficult target for China to meet, largely due to discounted competing Brazilian crops, weak commodity prices and overly confident goals.

“Fulfilling the agreement at this late stage of the year will be difficult, but not impossible,” S&P Global Platts analyst Peter Meyer said in an email. “It would appear by recent comments, that the U.S. administration has resigned itself to the possibility that the deal may not get fulfilled.”

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-...h-us-2020-08-14

They had only purchased $8.7 billion U.S. agriculture goods in the first half of 2020, fulfilling only 24% of this year’s purchase commitment.
There's too much wrong with your post to even explain it to you, but I'll try.

It's from Nov. of 2018. It is correct in part, as sales from the u.s. to china dropped. It also states, and i quote:
Quote:
Farmers have been struggling for five years as the cost of land, fertilizer, chemicals and seed have remained high, but net income has fallen. Some who rent their land or have accumulated high debt could be forced out of farming by the crisis.
2018 - subtract 5 years. That means it's been going on since 2013.

Sept. of 2018: https://hoosieragtoday.com/china-may-getting-u-s-soybeans-backdoor/ From the article:
Quote:
Typically, Argentina crushes most of their soybean production. “It looks like Argentina is going to get their soybeans from the U.S.,” says Vaclavik. “They’ve booked 850,000 metric tons of soybeans since the first of September.” From September to February last year, Vaclavik says Argentina sold zero soybeans to China. This year, Argentina plans to ship 1.8 million metric tons during the same period. Even if U.S. beans aren’t being sold directly to China, he says the export market is still helping prices. Farmers have long suspected China of buying soybeans through “gray” market channels.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-soybeans-braun-idUSKBN260007


Interesting read here: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-grains-usda-sale-idUSKBN1WH1KA From Oct. of 2019. From that article:
Quote:
Total U.S. soybean sales to China, however, remain well below normal as importers have sourced the majority of their soybeans from South America since the trade war with the United States erupted last year.
importers have sourced the majority of their soybeans from South America since the trade war with the United States erupted last year.



Oddly, Brazil and Argentina had nearly record lows in soybean production at that time. Where do you think the beans they sold came from, so they could export them to china? Oh, the u.s.



I know any bad news about trump, or anything that can remotely attributed to him gets the reports.

I also know farmers arent stupid, and around here, at least, soybean fields are the majority. They must be able to sell them somewhere.

I also know I have spoken, twice, personally, to someone that does represent (on a small scale, trust me) the u.s. farmers. He's been to South America, Australia, and one other country on behalf of the u.s. (and WITH many others), and things are going exactly how he said they would.
Then can you explain why China has only bought 24% of the amount of agricultural products in the first half of 2020 they agreed to purchase if they aren't getting them elsewhere? No, I don't think you can.

And they're buying more from Brazil.

Column: Does China still need U.S. soybeans after Brazil's export bonanza? - Braun

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-s...n-idUSKBN23U2LC

As I've stated and you have zero evidence to refute it, China will again be buying soybeans from us. But they will not reach the projected amounts that were anticipated. They have found other sources with which to offset some of what they were buying from us previously.

Brazil being one such source.
This post of yours makes it obvious you didn't read a single source I cited. Period. Lemme asplain it to ya in a way you can get: S.A. is buying OUR beans to ship to China. At an increased cost, of course. Hence, why they are coming back to buy u.s. beans from...............the u.s.

Have at it last word larry.
Brazil does not buy soybeans from us. They grow them. Russia is buying the soybeans Brazil grows.

Brazil headed for a bumper soy crop amid US-China deal

https://ocj.com/2020/01/brazil-headed-for-a-bumper-soy-crop-amid-us-china-deal/

You are correct that reading is fundamental.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-soybeans-braun-idUSKBN23U2LC
You do realize that this article shows just how much China is no buying from Brazil and that Brazil grows its own soybeans. And that Russia is now buying over 73% of Brazils soybeans just like I said, right?

And then I showed you that Brazil has a bumper crop of soybeans. It also states it doesn't see China buying as many soybeans as was committed to in the trade deal.
All I know is what I know. You will argue anything with me. You didn't read the first links I gave. I'm trying to be open and honest, you, on the other hand, are focused on somehow proving you're right.

Good for you. Talk to farmers, instead of reading anti trump articles. Talk to someone that actually has info, instead of believing the ...........eh, not worth my time, for yet a third time.

You win bud. You know more than anyone. Congrats!
Save yourself some grief and don't even bother responding to Last Word Larry.

You have a right to be heard. Put your stuff out there and then just ignore the noise from that group of posters.
Let's get a few things straight. First, I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. China did find an and around to buy American grain from third party Nations.

Secondly, I agree that Trump creating a trade deal with China is a positive step. So a lot of what you're accusing me of is pure BS.

And your little wannabe buddy chiming in isn't helping your cause.

Here's what are also some facts that are 100% correct you refuse to admit.

#1 China also found other nations to buy from that grow their own soybeans. One such nation is Brazil. I have given you ample evidence that proves that. Something you continue to ignore. Chins isn't going to suddenly stop buying grain from these other nations now. This will cut into future soybean sales to China.

#2 China is behind in buying soybeans from us at the rate that will meet their obligation in the trade deal. At this rate they will not meet their obligation. The reason for that is they have found some other sources to buy from due to us cutting off their grain supply. Those other nations can not come close to replacing the soybeans we sold them so they will be once again buying huge quantities of soybeans from us. But not as much as they would be doing otherwise.

#3 While I have said, like this will actually be the third time now, coming to a trade agreement with China is not a bad thing. Actually working an agreement with China is a good thing. There's only one problem to contend with which is not in any way Trump's fault. A trade agreement won't work the way it's supposed to if you make that agreement with someone who does not honor it. An agreement only works if both sides honor it. As I said, at this point in time China is well behind on soybean purchases that would honor the agreement.

You see, I'm actually listening to you and agree with your points. The actual problem here is you're not willing to open up to looking at the fact those aren't the only factors involved here. My posts certainly are not anti Trump and your lack of having the ability to understand that make it just how obviously obsessed you are with claiming everything written by some are anti Trump.

Carry on with only seeing things one way and keeping your mind closed to any other factors you simply weren't aware of.
You could've stopped after the first paragraph.
Actually you could own up to the points I've made. All of which are valid. But it's about what I expected from you.
© DawgTalkers.net