Should be interesting to see how it does. There's a lot of people who delivery is almost essential to getting goods, elderly/disabled/no transportation, just hope the cost for the services don't put it out of reach for those that really need such a service, or they have programs to help those folks.

For most of the rest of us, it's a convenience, that is welcomed when necessary, but there are still some items I want to see and choose, like meats, produce, etc.

U.S. Lost Over 60 Million Jobs—Now Robots, Tech And Artificial Intelligence Will Take Millions More

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2...sh=6ddb910e1a52

Millions Of Jobs Have Been Lost To Automation. Economists Weigh In On What To Do About It

https://www.forbes.com/sites/amysterling/2019/06/15/automated-future/?sh=24dd36d9779d

"They're taking our jobs!!!"

"Who is?"

The "They're Taking Our Jobs" argument towards automation is almost as old and tired as the one related to immigration.

Yet it is far more factual.

Not by much (thus far).

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. IA is taking over a lot of very good paying jobs that people actually want. Now if we want to consider all jobs equally, then you may have a point. But is a job that people can't actually make a decent living at equal to a job that people can? That may be where our opinions differ.

In the end it will work, and less costly over time then hiring people to do it.

Automation is already all around.

How often do you call somewhere to get a automated phone system?

You push a few buttons, don't get what you want and finally get a prompt to speak to a representative, who is usually named "Andrew" and speaks in a heavy Indian accent.

It's odd how so many people complain about immigrants taking our jobs but defend corporations doing it. I guess it's really not about jobs being taken but more about who it is that's taking them.

That’s why I laugh at the fear mongering over immigration. They were taking jobs most people didn’t want, while the robots are taking all the jobs they want.

Well obviously they can’t get at a robot cause it doesn’t give two craps, so they pick the humans to trash. It’s why I also I don’t understand why they tried to so hard to give power and deregulation to corporations. One of the most effective and efficient ways to lower expenses is to lower labor cost.

And republicans voters fought like hell to make sure corporations had the money and resources to do a good job of it. So first corporations lowered cost by shipping jobs overseas, and now they don’t even have to do that.

Hope y’all got that bread right on the stock market. And a dip savings account. Robots don’t give two craps about your conservative Christian values.

It would be interesting to see the numbers. Cause based on what I saw and heard in that report, you have robots just picking stuff and bringing it to packers.

But someone has to still unload the truck and get the stuff into the bins. The system has added packers (which in some ways is the place of the cashier), then you have the delivery folks.

So the number would be interesting to see how many people it replaced, and how many did it just reposition.

Ahhhh, I was complaining about the automated system.

Any complaint about the person on the phone is simply about them being hard to understand. I don't care where they live.

Quit trying to pick for things that aren't there.

Nice rant. Too bad it is baseless babble.

It’s not though.

Y’all fought like hell to give power to the very entities that didn’t want to pay people in the first place.

In about 50 years we’re gonna have robots so advance, they’re even replacing the feminist. You’ve seen those sex robots in Japan. They’re about to be so realistic AND dudes ain’t gonna worry about consent? Perfect reality for the tucker Carlson fanboys.

Unless they don’t have a job to pay for one.....

No, I can't say I have seen the sex robots in Japan.

Vice wrote articles about it.

It’s creepy but kinda interesting. Automation coming for social media models. No job is safe.

Liars have to continually come up with new stories because they can't handle the truth.

At least now you recognize your problem. They say that's half the battle.

The Rush Limbaugh's new host ends the show today saying

The republican right, blah blah, America is,

blah blah, "because we have hope"

???

What a Crock!

Since Nov. 4, 2020, They' there no longer is any hope!

That place no longer offers the best option for Hope!


Political bull, string em along, 35 years, line of TRASH,
ehh' you still have Hope!

Wake UP!

Sex robots are for incels.

They have programmed you well.

You would know.

Nope. Not an incel.

Actually, there is no such thing as a female incel.

Not sure that a female can't be involuntarily celibate, but you probably know more incels than anybody on here being a right winger and running your game...

I dont know any incels.

As uptight as liberals are, I'd think they are more likely incels.

( Copy) and Paste)“What is an incel?” you ask.


I am delighted, yet horrified, to explain. Incel is a portmanteau for the term “involuntary celibate.” Though the moniker was initially conceived by a female blogger in a post detailing her frustrations about her lackluster dating life, according to the fleets of lonely men that comprise incel internet communities, an incel must be male. Furthermore, he must be irreparably unfortunate-looking and either a virgin or have not had sex for a considerable amount of time – despite desiring otherwise.


Incels explain away their forced celibacy as an issue outside of their control. They refuse to claim ownership of any personal shortcomings that would result in their solitude. Instead, simply because they “lost the genetic lottery,” they’re rendered helpless outcasts of a cruel, looks-obsessed

(copy and paste)

Never heard of that word, I learn something new everyday.

https://hilltopmonitor.jewell.edu/sex-robots-arent-the-answer-to-male-loneliness/

Try learning this today... donny lost fair and square.

You better do some research, they are almost exclusively far right wing. And I don't believe you don't know any. You probably created a few by shooting them down and making them think you are better than them... truth be told.

Yes. I neuter men by rejecting them.

Automation > Conservatives Fault > Liberals Fault > Sex Dolls > Celibacy


Yep typical DT thread path.

Add in Immigrants and guns and we can shut down the board as there would be nothing left to talk about.

That's called an Eve trolling tangent.

I made sex robots a topic. See you all on Monday!!!

I didn't bring up the sex robots, Swish did.

I'm surprised you didn't post, "Robots will not replace me!"

This may or may not be true,(just stop reading now) Someone was giving me something to read where Sean Hanity, had written a response to where Mark Levin had put out a backstory piece on a book showing Barbara Bush had written a biography which unveiled that Margaret Thatcher in the late 1980's had written what she found of Einsteins' 1950's account of how he had read of Marie Curies' account in biography, of What Mark Twain wrote in his recounting of Henry David Thoreaus' lost piece of his writings on Edgar Allen Poes' then found book on the times of William III the wherein William the third was revealing a biography of Shakespeare, which was actually fakeespeare in that his writings actually were an amalgamation of a couple writers who weren't really writings but they were orally expressed because he was illiterate, but it contained another source and account of where Shakespeare had started a book retelling the account of him reading a book that had been previously found to be of an author who had discovered a biography of a storyteller that was about another storyteller that had written on parchment of the fables of times of the account where a story was told on stone, which had to be burned into the stone, and the story was a recounting of an account of a storyteller who was remembering a story.

So I was reading this story about this guy who was making up a story about someone telling a story.
(I don't know how many that is.
( I was going to put this in son of goofy, but just wonder how long until it becomes obvious never intending to end.

That was seriously one of the craziest 200+ word sentences I have ever read in my life!

You have a way with words. I like the random use of commas -- the way one seems to drip off your keyboard every thirty words or so. It's a bold writing style.

I think you should put this in son of goofy... It deserves it's place in the sun.

I'll say this about automation: It's happening for many reasons.

1. Companies can't find people to actually work.
2. Demand for higher wages for know nothing jobs has worked against people.
3. I do not know of a single company around here that ISN'T hiring. I know of 1 that has even eliminated drug testing. They would love to hire 250 to 300 people. (at a very competitive wage, along with 1 week of vacation upon hiring, 4 personal days, and 5 sick days, as well as paid holidays, health insurance, dental insurance, etc) The jobs are out there - even Mcdonalds is starting people off at $10 an hour. Nephew started out at $9 and hour just 4 months ago - he's at $11.50 an hour now.

Maybe it's just N.W. Ohio - but EVERY company is looking to hire - they just can't find employees. Hell, I even thought about working Sat. and Sunday - 11-5 at $20 an hour for a manufacturing company. Only problem is, I work most Saturdays at my real job.

4. All the .........well, it's too easy now, because of covid and the the unemployment stuff, and the extra money you get for being unemployed.....hell, people are making more sitting at home.

5. Gov't handing out money for nothing will, WILL bite this country in the ass, soon.

6. "Biden Hopes Tax Credit Will Encourage Vaccine-Hesitant Americans To Get One Anyway"

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/biden-covid-19-vaccine-tax-credit-160104759.html

S.V. Date
S.V. Date·Senior White House Correspondent, HuffPost
Wed, April 21, 2021, 12:01 PM·3 min read

WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden on Wednesday encouraged Americans who do not want a COVID-19 vaccine to get one anyway by reminding them that small businesses can take a full tax credit against paid time off they provide for the vaccination and, if need be, recovery afterward.

“I’m calling on every employer, large and small, in every state, to give employees the time off they need, with pay, to get vaccinated. And any time they need, with pay, to recover, if they’re feeling under the weather after the shot,” Biden said in brief remarks from the Eisenhower Executive Office Building next door to the White House. “No working American should lose a single dollar from their paycheck because they chose to fulfill their patriotic duty of getting vaccinated.”

He said conversations with people across the country made him realize that some people cannot afford to take time from work to get a vaccine. “Every employee should get paid leave to get a shot. And businesses should know they can provide it without a hit to their bottom line,” he said.

Under the $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan, which Congress passed and Biden signed into law last month, businesses with 500 employees or fewer can claim a tax credit for as much as $511 a day for paid time off they provide to their employees, up to 10 days for vaccinations and recovery time per employee.

A senior administration official who spoke on condition of anonymity said a quarter of Americans who say they will not get vaccinated may consider doing so if they know they would not lose money.

“No one should have to lose pay to be vaccinated,” the official said, adding that Biden will call on small businesses — who in total account for nearly half of all private sector employment — to encourage their workers to get the vaccine.

Most large employers already have paid time off for sick days.
President Joe Biden signs the American Rescue Plan on March 11 in the Oval Office of the White House. (Photo: MANDEL NGAN via Getty Images)
President Joe Biden signs the American Rescue Plan on March 11 in the Oval Office of the White House. (Photo: MANDEL NGAN via Getty Images)

A Quinnipiac University survey last week found that 27% of Americans — and nearly half of Republicans — do not want to get a vaccine against the virus that has killed 568,532 in this country and 3 million around the world; 68% said they had already been vaccinated or intend to be.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 213 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have already been administered in the United States, with 132 million Americans age 18 and over, or 51%, having at least one dose, and 86 million, or 33%, being fully vaccinated.

Biden took office with the stated goal of delivering 100 million doses of vaccines in his first 100 days in office, and then increased that to 200 million doses when the early target was easily reached more than a month ago.

Biden on Wednesday also took credit for having ramped up the vaccination rate since taking office, and thanked his COVID-19 team, federal agencies, state and local governments, retired health care workers who volunteered to administer shots and everyday Americans for lining up to get vaccinated.

“This is an American achievement, a powerful demonstration of unity and resolve, what unity can do for us,” he said.

He also urged every American 16 and over to get vaccinated as soon as possible, now that the elderly, health care workers, teachers, police and firefighters have been largely taken care of.

“If you’ve been waiting for your turn, wait no longer,” the president added.




So, I got vaccinated. Do I qualify for getting re imbursed thousands of dollars for getting vaccinated? Or is that just for 'other' people?


When gov't. makes it so damn easy to NOT work, it sucks the life out of someone having the desire to work.

You want to know why automation is here for good? Companies can't find people that will work because it's too easy to not work

If people are making more money on unemployment than they would working, then they never had a real job to begin with. This BS has already been debunked. But it's another Trump era talking point that makes no damn sense whatsoever, yet the bots have strict walking orders to keep spreading the lies.

Trump lost/cost Americans millions of jobs for his crap show of an admin's handling of covid. Biden has helped to recoup some of those but nowhere near enough. Covid is still rampant. One party is full of idiots refusing to get vaccinated. Many red states are fighting common sense tracking of the vaccinated, downplaying new cases of covid, and warnings from the CDC and Dr. Fauci's team. And where companies are trying to hire, these issues lend to the problem of not being able to find help. Additionally, a job that does not pay well is not a real job. 10 or 11 bucks an hour is wage slavery.

There are so many factors in this new post covid economy affecting what people are willing and unwilling to do that even the best economist are struggling to predict the short term future. But a guy like arch has it all figured out... Maybe you should go try to fix some problems instead of crying about them in here, while trying to put a trumpian twist on everything.

There is not 1 damn sentence in your whole post that is factual, true, or even close to it.

LOL right...

Even though none of his sentences are true, there is one that is close enough to having a point that it needs to be corrected.



Should be:
There are so many factors in this new Post Nov. 23rd. stolen election, and therefore dismissal of the will of the people , by the olgarch's, big business media, and whomever else is actually in charge's economy, affecting what people are willing and unwilling to do... that economists can't figure some such...

Fixed.

I just wanted to address these 2 points by themselves because (IMO) they're more incorrect than correct. Both are almost entirely based on opinion, and depending on the industry/company they could be anywhere from partially true to completely untrue.

The drive towards automation is largely based on speed and 'efficiency'. If you have a simple task, a machine will do it faster and with less mistakes than a human. Mistakes or failures pretty much always result in higher costs (time and materials to remake a burger all the way to investigating why a medical implant failed), so reducing those mistakes as much as possible makes good business sense.

Stop making sense. It doesn't sell well.

Absolutely.

The jobs I'm talking about are manufacturing jobs for the most part.

You know, jobs where people operate machinery. If you can't find people to operate the machinery, businesses are looking at spending million upon millions to use "automated" machines to build the product.

yes, you get speed and efficiency. You also have a HUGE capital outlay to begin with. And then the routine maintenance as well.

You omit the vacation, 401k expenses, and others.

I could list 30-40 companies in just a 4 county area in n.w. Ohio that are actively seeking employees and simply can't find them.

I only speak of what I KNOW, unlike the person that posted below your response to me. (and by the way, your response was reasonable. Thanks.)

I know CEO's, CFO's of large businesses, and I know the owner of 8 McDonald franchises, as well as small businesses - none can find people that show up to work, drug free, and do so for 40 hours a week. (enough people, that is)

You say my statements are more incorrect than correct, in your opinion. I say they are more correct than incorrect, in my opinion, as well as the opinion of many, many others.

HR managers are another source I use for my 'opinion'.

I should also add, unlike a few people on here that run willy nilly to every thread to post their expertise on things they know not much about - if anything - I speak from experience of others that RUN the businesses, that can't find the help, that then are faced with HUGE expenditures to automate.

I could speak from personal experience as well.

True.


It's also true that over time it is cheaper then hiring employees.

The actual "wage" is only a part of the cost of having employees.

Invest in machinery, that is an expense a company can write off in depreciation.

Just go to WalMart. You find 1 person monitoring 8-10 self checks that move prettty wellv 2 registers open with cashiers with long lines.

The opinion thing (we all have them) goes without saying.... I appreciate your response. :-p

Also, what I mentioned is HIGHLY industry-dependent (more to your point than mine, tbh).

If they could've automated burger-flipping right now such that it made good financial sense... they absolutely would have.

Machinists (good ones) are harder to come by than ever right now... but they still haven't been able to completely phase them out. If anything, as machining operations involve more computers, experienced machinists become even MORE important, not less.

I can only speak for our company, we get a lot of applicants, but most show up for a few days and realize you actually have to work, and it's physical work, and they don't show up anymore, about 40% fill and app, take the drug test form and then never take the test and return.

We have hired 26 people so far this year, everywhere from office staff to loaders to drivers.

In my area employers absolutely can not find workers for jobs paying well over 15/hr. Amazon, UPS and even the post office are screaming for workers. There was an ad on tv for a restaraunt offering 17/hr for a line cook and dishwashers. The guy that installed our AC unit (company owner) said he can't talk former good employees into comimg back after being laid off....they said they'll call when the unemployment stimulus runs out. That's why he was out doing installations. That's just here in my area, but I'm pretty sure it's not an anomaly.

***Within 5 minutes of posting this, the local morning news had a segment on the difficulties employers are having filling good paying jobs. ***

Since you decided to target my post which was in no way aimed at you, though not surprising. You forgot to add, "In my neighborhood" to the above post.

I don't really consider a 4 county area (each county in the roughly 350-400 sq. mile range) as "my neighborhood".

And, we've heard from people in Lucas county, as well as somewhere in Florida. And I will add in Elkhart county in Indiana as well - my brother and his 30 employee business.

The one company I spoke of that has 650 employees? Does work all over Ohio, Michigan, Indiana - and many jobs in Kentucky, as well as in other states. Now, aside from Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan, the work is done under a different name, and I have no idea the number of employees.

I base my opinions on FACTS from the people that are LIVING it. Not some warped/biased media that spoon feeds me.

Spoke with a lady today - she's employed full time, M-F, in an apartment complex. She works another job called a 'weekend warrior' job. Sat and Sunday. Saturdays pay $21 an hour, and Sundays pay $27 an hour. She's never worked less than 10 hours a day. Before taxes, she's looking at $500 a week.

Not too shabby, really.

No that's not shabby at all. Of course then there's the aspect of living to work seven days a week. There have been times in my life where I've done that myself but if I had it all to do over again I probably wouldn't have.

There are jobs going unfilled. A lot of them. So I'm not trying to totally discount your point.

But the reasons vary and there's not some one size fits all answer for that.

Let me give you a counterpoint. Good paying jobs are moving to Tennessee in droves. We have two years of free community college here. What businesses are finding is that we have a ready and educated work force for technical, well paying jobs. There are low paying jobs which people are having trouble filling the positions here but otherwise businesses are finding all the qualified employees they desire.

You see, what a waiter or server makes in Nashville makes it very hard to make a living. Homes that were once reasonably priced have gone up in value by leaps and bounds. As such rents have skyrocketed here. Rent makes it restrictive to live here on low wages. And with the opportunities of better jobs flooding the state, many are moving into more lucrative jobs.

I have no idea of the unemployment rate in the areas you speak of but in many cases that also plays a factor. Like I said, the situation differs from place to place and the unemployment rate, education of your citizens and other factors play a role in that.

Last I heard, in my 'neighborhood' unemployment was 4.7%

That was this morning - 1 county was 5%.

One need not live to work 7 days a week. For those that do, most are people like the lady I spoke about: Extra money, for things they want, but didn't have the money for.

Heck, for 480 a weekend, I'd consider it - but I work at MY job most saturdays, and Sunday - get this, I go to church, and during the football season, I watch the Browns.

My choice, just as it's her choice.

Just as many factories here offer over time daily, and yes, 7 days a week if the employee chooses to do so.

If one of those picker robots gets in my way at Krogers Ima going trash the motha.

Yes it was my choice when I decided to work seven days a week too. Which is exactly what I spoke about. Never did I say others didn't have a choice so I have no idea where that outburst came from.

If you called my post an 'outburst'....wow.

If the word tangent makes you feel any better we can go with that.

I spoke facts. You had to chime in on something irrelevant in an effort to make yourself relevant.

Bottom line, jobs ARE out there for those that desire to work and improve themselves and their situations.

Nope, the jobs aren't sitting at a computer in an office, or sitting at home on a computer. But there ARE jobs, and companies are even extending lucrative jobs to people that DO want to work - part time jobs paying darn well.

jc

Back from yet another ban where I was engaged with ^ that guy and got reported for name calling AGAIN. This is about the 5th time I've caught a ban due to my reactions to this one posters relentless attacks and nitpicking. I'm sure the poster will deny any fault or reporting me again... blah blah blah.

I find it ironic that you post about automated solutions when you're also an advocate for raising the minimum wage.

Incorrect. Yet again. I didn't report anything.

In fact I didn't even see what you called me.

But, I'm glad to see you take personal responsibility for it.........oh, wait, you don't.

You spoke facts in some parts of the country. I spoke facts in another part of the country. You yourself admitted that less than five people per hundred are out of a job in your area yet make it sound like some widespread problem.

4.7%? Yeah, it sounds like a serious issue in your community.

*** You are ignoring this user ***
Toggle the display of this post

That's all I have to say to you.

You're ignoring me, yet felt the need to post about it?

Anyway:

Something you, and others might want to read: https://money.yahoo.com/south-carolina-cancels-federal-unemployment-benefits-212914813.html

Unemployment benefits HAVE gotten too nice to turn down. Why work when you can make as much if not more NOT working?

You may wish to see how that turns out before you claim it will work.

The South Carolina senate also voted to bring back the firing squad to execute corporal punishment and it's awaiting their governors signature.

I think you'll find out that canceling the federal unemployment program may not yield the result you hope it will.

From the article...

‘Limited evidence of work disincentives'

Several papers have established that the extra $600 in benefits distributed earlier in the pandemic had limited labor supply effects and likely didn’t disincentivize work, including one by the National Bureau of Economic Research and another by Yale University. The current supplemental benefit is worth half of what those papers reviewed.

"The 100% federally-paid unemployment benefits have boosted spending and contributed to the strong economic recovery," Stettner said. "It's shortsighted for the state to sacrifice that economic stimulus based on the anecdotal labor shortages concerns of a few employers, especially given the limited evidence of work disincentives from unemployment pay during the pandemic."

And here are a couple of other juicy tidbits.

As of now the federal unemployment benefits are down to $300 a week, not $600.

South Carolina state benefits last a total of 20 weeks. So anyone trying to "milk the system due to Covid" in South Carolina ran out of state benefits long ago and are are only drawing $300 a week in federal benefits now.

Not quite the cash cow some are making it out to be.

Maybe that does qualify as "too nice to turn down" but I'm just not seeing it.

All the BS about people staying on unemployment over going back to work has less to do with the money they are getting from unemployment and more to do with the wages they would be making otherwise. Simple fact is, most sane people will do whatever is in their best interest when it comes to working for wages.

I actually think GOPers share a lot of blame for the low jobs numbers because their anti vaxxing, anti masking, anti facts, and anti American (fascist) behavior and divisiveness have done irreparable damage to the American way of life including working along side of those whose political views we truly despise.

Yes, I can find a way to blame everything on republicans because pretty much all of our hardships are currently at minimum being magnified by their ideology.

I'm not going to get into that portion of the debate. But they do seem to fall for false narratives. Some more than others.

Anyone who lost their jobs more than 20 weeks ago have exhausted all of their state benefits in both South Carolina and Montana. The federal program only pays $300 a week now. So the entire premise of those staying on unemployment because it's some cash cow or too nice to turn down is a false narrative.

Even when looking at their current unemployment rates show plainly that the unemployment rates in both states are not unusually high. But it makes them "feel good" to believe it.

So, if they've lost their unemployment benefits, does that mean they aren't factored in to their states unemployment numbers?

The standard unemployment rate, referred to as U-3, is the one most often cited. By that measure, a person is counted as unemployed if he or she does not have a full-time, part-time, or temporary job, is actively looking for a job, and is currently available to be hired.

those who want and are available for a job and have actively looked for a job within the preceding 12 months but not within the preceding four weeks—are considered neither employed nor unemployed and thus not part of the labor force.

https://www.britannica.com/story/how-is-...loyment%20rate.

What it means is it has zero impact on what you claim cutting off federal unemployment benefits will help solve. Your claim is that giant $300 per week is "too nice to turn down", thus the cause for people not returning to work.

We'll see.

In all fairness you are right and wrong Pit. My daughter works cases for ODJFS and has explained some of this to me because she has had to do eligibility reviews. Let's say Joe makes a $1000 a week working his JOB when he is laid off. In Ohio the base rate for unemployment is 50% of your normal weekly earnings. This amount is adjusted according to your number of dependents. So, Joe gets $500 base, up to a max of $672 with dependents. Then the fed plus up of $300 is added. The most anyone is getting is $972 as I understand it, based on them making around $1000 or more normally and their total number of dependents. Then each person can opt-in to have taxes of 10% withheld.

Gig workers and the self employed are treated the same, but since many don't have a regular income (check) so they either base the PUA on previous years taxes OR in the case of people not being able to prove previous income (like they started this year) they get the minimum of $189 plus the fed plus up of $300 for a whopping $489 a week.

So the only possible people making more on unemployment would be those in the range of $600 or less normal weekly income. $600/2 = $300 + $300 plus up = $600. But $500/2 = $250 + $300 = $550; in this case more. Basically the GOPer argument is that the very poorest Americans might be getting an extra $50 to $100 or so a week above and beyond what they would make working. TBH, I can't see foregoing a new job for that.

Here's the thing. You only get so many weeks of state unemployment before those benefits run out. In Ohio it used to be 26 weeks. In South Carolina it's 20 weeks.

So if in fact people are trying to use the system to avoid going back to work, they would have to had been laid off in the past 6 months or so. Most businesses heavily impacted by Covid such as restaurants and the service industry were laying off when the lock downs first took place over a year ago. They no longer qualify for state benefits.

There's also another fact people are overlooking. If you're drawing unemployment and your employer calls you back to work, if you refuse work you no longer qualify for unemployment. Anyone who has ever collected unemployment knows that if you refuse to return to work when your employer calls you back that's an immediate disqualification to be eligible to collect unemployment.

It's one of those issues that makes for a great sound bite but when you look beneath the surface doesn't really add up.

Perhaps you're forgetting about the extended unemployment benefits?

The U.S. chamber of commerce disagrees with you.

Top economists disagree. (I think I read The Economist for that info).

And Obama's top economist disagrees with you.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/obamas-former-top-economist-outlines-121000849.html

From the article, he lists 5 reasons, in his opinion:



Now, we can toss out early retirement, as if someone retires, they aren't looking for work.

School closures somehow relate to unemployment?

Furman also added:

He said it was a factor, but quickly added "not the main one" in his democratic opinion. Of course, he mentions it, then poo poos it.

You keep citing 20 weeks to 26 weeks of unemployment benefits when, in actuality, some states have extended that to as much as 60-72 weeks.





I know for a fact that almost EVERY business around here, and actually probably nationwide, is looking for employees. They can't find them. Why?

And Tennessee just limited theirs to 12 weeks. I would like for you to show where either Montana or South Carolina extended their state unemployment to 60-72 weeks. You see, this claim is the only cause they are using to stop federal unemployment benefits. Actually, up until now you have claimed it's the major reason for it.

Your source lists it as one of several reasons for it.

I have no idea where you got this " some states have extended that to as much as 60-72 weeks"

Here is a list of all states and their current amount of state weekly benefit allowances for unemployment as of May 3rd.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/economy/how-many-weeks-of-unemployment-compensation-are-available

There are 14 states that have extended benefits. None of them reach the 60-72 weeks you claim. So you are trying to use the exception to the rule as your basis.

I was wrong on the 60 to 72 weeks number. My apologies.

Depending on location.....well, here, read it yourself:


Again, I think you possibly forgot about the extensions?

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/unemployment-insurance-extended-benefit-programs-4802217


Finally.

From the article:

The table in your link does not include extensions. For Colorado it shows 26 weeks + 13.

Colorado unemployment insurance

Standard claim - 26 weeks
Cares act - 13 weeks
CAA - 11 weeks
American Rescue Plan - 29 weeks

26 + 13 + 11 + 29 = 79 weeks

I can’t imagine being upset about the unemployment benefits.

Like, imagine being mad that nobody wants to stand in the kitchen making your fast food order for slave wages.

There’s a whole lot of jobs available. That’s true. What’s also true is that the bulk of these jobs that are available are jobs half the people on this board wouldn’t be caught dead working right now.

So many jobs right here in the mentor/Painesville area paying less than 12 an hour. Look at Alabama and it’s like 8-9 an hour.

Then it’s even worse if you’re a server. You get slave wages and gotta hope that whoever is at the table feels like tipping you today. which even then, you got these losers restaurant owners who make servers split their tip money with others.

I’m so glad I decided to invest and get into renting apartments. I’m also glad I’ll never have to work with or FOR half the people in this thread. A lot of y’all conservatives are really great at taking the human out of ‘humanity’.

For anybody on unemployment, keep taking it. These business owners were looking for ways to fire you and give your job to someone in China or a robot anyway, so there’s no point of buying into this narrative that somehow you working for p-iss poor wages is dignified.

They can afford to pay you a living wage. They just don’t WANT to. Because if they did, they wouldn’t be looking for Asian workers or robots to do the job instead.

My property taxes have gone up. I’m sure the capital gains tax will go up.

Fine with me. Cause I’m not a selfish scumbag.

I'm not upset about unemployment benefits - get that straight.

What I AM upset about is people not going back to work.

As for this part:

I am so, so close to taking a weekend job - why? Because I need it? Maybe yes, maybe no. But, at a minimum of $20 an hour at 1 place, where you can work 11-5 OR 12 hours a day on Sat. and Sunday......

Another place is offering $21 an hour on Saturday - anywhere from 8-12 hours a day, plus $27 an hour on Sunday......that's pretty good money in my eyes - for a part time weekend job.

The rest of your post speaks for itself - I shall go no further on that.

Then take the job then. Why you here talking about it? Just do it already.

I wish the people I knew were getting offered 20 an hour. Hell I don’t even need a gig and I’ll take the job if it’s paying that much.

But stop pretending like the bulk of jobs out here are paying anywhere close to that. It ain’t like that whatsoever

If 300 a week on unemployment is a big enough incentive to NOT work, the problem was NEVER the unemployment. The problem is the wages being paid while working.

Man that barely covers child care for a lot of women around the country. Taking a job would put people in a WORSE financial position than before.

Bro if you gotta take unemployment or get a 2nd job cause it fits your situation that go for it. That’s dope. But what I’m annoyed as hell is you and squires and others knocking others for THEIR own situations.

Yea, the rest of my post does speak for itself. Cause I’m not out here judging people simply because they’re not in the same situation as I’m in.

What, exactly, IS your situation? Don't go there.

Oh, and I never said the bulk of the jobs are paying that amount - $20 to $27 an hour. Keep in mind, those are part time jobs. but, not damn bad money, right?

And it's not the $300 a week, although it is. Combined with regular unemployment, it adds up.

The topic was/is "why aren't people working when jobs are available?" You answered that with "take all the unemployment you can get".



I love this part: "Taking a job would put people in a WORSE financial position than before."

That speaks volumes about attitude, and those that have the same attitude you do.

Live off of others, cause, hell, I don't want a job, and get raises for showing up to do the job, like, 40 hours a week. Why the hell would anyone do that when they can sponge off the gov't. and NOT work?

Right?

I said the "state unemployment" eligibility, not federal. Those whose businesses shut down such as restaurant workers began their unemployment at the beginning of Covid are no longer eligible for any state benefits.

The table in the link is for state benefits. If one had been following the thread this isn't complicated.

As of now anyone whose state benefits have exceeded those in that chart no longer qualify and only qualify for the current federal benefits of $300 dollars a week. In the states of Montana and South Carolina those people will now collect zero.

I hope that was written in terms you understand.

Read closer arch. Those include federal benefits. They are not restricted to state benefits which I posted and are current as of May 3rd. Sorry, there's no "gothcya" there.

All of these programs are federal programs which have nothing to do with state unemployment benefits.

Cares act - 13 weeks
CAA - 11 weeks
American Rescue Plan - 29 weeks

So no, "states" haven't extended their benefits to more weeks than the chart I gave you. As of now all anyone can collect in federal unemployment is $300 a week which is exactly what I've been telling you.

Normally 26 weeks but under this extension Ohio is paying that out for the duration of the 70 some weeks or while the order is in effect. As far as I know they are not kicking you off if you lost your job during covid, due to covid. But I could be wrong on that. Will see my daughter tomorrow and will ask her.

The states are responsible for giving out the federal money. The most direct questions to ask would be how long do people qualify state unemployment benefits and how long do they qualify for federal benefits.

You will find that the state benefits are much shorter than the federal. You will also find that a lot of people in Ohio have ran out of state benefits and are only collecting federal benefits being paid out through the states.

In order to "kick you off" they would have to end the federal benefits just like Montana and South Dakota have done.

I have no ideas why this concept seems so complicated to some.

There's two programs here. PEUC and FPUC From the colorado link in my previous post:


Then:


PEUC - extension of the state benefits. This is funded by the feds.

FPUC - $300 boost you referred to.

This is how I feel. I know there are probably many when you add them up that are abusing the system, but there are damn sure more people in need right now. $18 to $20 an hour will net you around $1500 every two weeks. Take that to the weekly unemployment, $750 a week / 2 = $375 + $300 plus up would be $675. So they are still missing out on $150 every two weeks or $300 a month... That's definitely not more than working but if you live in Qtrumpistan, it's probably much safer.

So this much ado about nothing is basically over chump change for the lowest wage earners in the country. And we all know that GOPers love begrudging any money to the poor, so this is the hill they want to make a stand on and Americans are taking notes.

I'm with you that a guy like Larry Kudlow, probably a multi millionaire who has never really struggled in his life, gets all out of sorts that a single mom might be able to feed her kids a little extra this week or treat them to something they would never get without that insignificant hundred or two extra money coming in during a PANDEMIC.

Just like you said, they are not mad about the money, they are mad that somebody other than them is using the government for gain and they might pay more for a cup of coffee at starbucks or god forbid, have to wait a little longer for service when they go in. So out come the cries for spoiling the poor because those damn poor people need to stay in their lane and just do what they are told and toil for the rich until they die, even if the toiling kills them.

A truly decent person says, "who cares that they are getting a little more?"; QOPers meanwhile are clutching their pearls all aghast.

Bro I get 100% what you have been saying. But I don't think the state unemployment benefits are ending like you think. I mean I will ask and clarify if I can, but my understanding is that the pandemic plus up includes extensions of the state funds too. I could be wrong or you could be, but we are not disagreeing that some in some places or maybe all are only getting the $300 from uncle sam. I think that might also be different in every state... meanwhile Canada is still sending 2K monthly to every working adult. The canucks must have way more money that the US...

Exactly. A total of 38 weeks in state benefits. Nothing close to the 62 to 72 weeks of state benefits that was claimed.

There are a total of 14 states that extended state benefits. None extended it to nearly the extent that was claimed. All of them are listed in the exact same table I posted here.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/economy/how-many-weeks-of-unemployment-compensation-are-available

Which means this entire premise has been perpetrated on only 14 states who extended benefits while ignoring the 36 states that did not. And even the states that did extend didn't come nearly close to meeting the initial claim.

My situation is a lot different than yours. I’m going wherever you wanna take it, buddy. I like road trips.

You can read what you want. My attitude and compassion for my fellow human being is something I’m proud of. That fact that you DONT view your fellow Americans in the same light speaks volumes, as well.

Crazy how I actually understand your situation while you attempt to belittle others for theirs. That speaks all kinds of volumes.

I'll find it interesting to see what she has to say.

It got extended beyond that. There were 3 covid stimulus bills that congress passed. All 3 of them extended PEUC. The CAREs act added the initial 13 week extension. That was set to expire at the end of December. Congress made another 11 week extension at the end of December. Then Bidens stimulus plan added another 29 weeks.


https://www.investopedia.com/pandemic-emergency-unemployment-compensation-peuc-definition-4802046

13 + 11 + 29 = 53. So you have a 53 week extension on top of the original state unemployment benefits. Your link does not include the extensions.

Did the extensions include the states base unemployment pay + the fed plus up?

Thats my understanding. 2 programs in play

PEUC - this extends the base state unemployment pay

PUA - is the extra $300/week from the feds

How so? Please explain.
I think the difference between us might just be that I want people to be successful. I want people to work for a living. Jobs are there. You, on the other hand - you've stated people should milk unemployment to the max.

I want people to work - to earn their money. Apparently you want people to suck off the gov't. teet for as long as they can.

I want people to improve their lot in life through their own efforts. You appear to want people to improve their lot in life through gov't. subsidies.

You don't understand my situation. You don't understand my WHY's. You don't understand that there is now a call for $2000 a month in gov't. income for every adult American. You don't need to understand. I don't care.


I got a bird feeder. I hung it up. It was bell shaped....took about 2 weeks for it to be gone. Got another one. Took less than a week for it to be gone.

Then I got smart and bought a refillable feeder. It had much more seed capacity. Took a week til it was empty.

Filled it - took a few days til it was empty.

I filled the thing yesterday - it's empty today.

When given something for free, it is used, and expected and becomes the norm.

Do you get it? I don't want to keep people down. No. I want them to work, and the jobs are there. The willingness to work appears to not be. Too easy to be unemployed. No, those people aren't getting rich. But they're getting lazy, and expectant.

For those that CAN'T work? Yes, help them. For those that can work, but don't?

We've got a guy on here that loves to quote the King James Bible, and it's always "verily, I say unto thee......"

Here's what I say: Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. And he'll be back the next day for another of your fish. Teach the man to fish, and he'll eat for a lifetime.

The gov't. is making it too easy to not go to work. My opinion, and it won't change.

Your opinion seems to be "take all you can get for free....someone else is paying for it."

You want people to work for pennies.

You don’t even realize how ridiculous you look trashing people over 300 dollars. That fact that somehow you’re translating this to me saying I don’t want people to work at all and just live off the government is also ridiculous.

And what’s worse is you don’t even understand basic economics. That 300 bucks is being spent at the same companies that these owners are whining about. How much WORSE would businesses be right now if it wasn’t for the unemployment boost. They wouldn’t be whining about lack of hires because there would be no one buying their crap.

That’s why you still don’t get it: the wages they pay doesn’t allow people to afford anything. Working those trash ass jobs at those wages will barely cover rent, never mind sustaining an economy.

But that’s arch. Throwing a bigger hissy fit over the everyday American over these business overs who were straight up committing fraud with those PPP loans. It’s cool for billionaires, corporations, and wannabe small business owners to pay people slave wages and steal money from the government.

But the moment anybody else decides to just chill, THATS when arch has a problem.

Corporate subsidies and bribing them with tax cuts: A OK with arch
Paying borderline slave wages: A OK with arch
Companies firing Americans to give jobs to people in China: A OK with arch
Business owners using government loans to do everything BUT pay workers: A OK with arch

Those same people who lost their jobs to those owners/corporations getting an extra 300 a week:

Not OK with arch.

This is why I openly mock and ridicule conservatives. You guys will spit on your fellow everyday Americans while boot licking the people who don’t give two craps about you.

I’m so thankful everyday god, Mother Nature, the universe, or whoever didn’t make me a conservative male.

I wouldn’t be able to live with myself being such a selfish person with such a low opinion of my fellow man. Just couldn’t do it.

Business pays what business deems a job is worth. The government can't dictate that.

The actual dollars the business pays to employees really doesn't matter. The percentage of the pie paid is what matters.

The percentage paid will stay the same as the business raises prices to compensate for increased wages, or any other expense for that matter.

The the customers have to determine if the product is now worth the increased expense. If it is, great. If not the business has two choices. Close the doors and send everybody home or move the business to a location that fits the business plan.

I will say that any wage gains propped by government mandate will soon be eaten up by those business' that survive by the inflation caused by increased prices.

Minimum wage workers will always be in a tight spot no matter how much magic dust the government wants to sprinkle.

In time they will choke off enough business and have enough people on the government cheese to take over business to become state run operations.

By the way, we’re still in a pandemic, just in case anyone forgot.

Qop never believed it in the first place.

Which is a big reason why they don’t run anything anymore.

Too busy dismissing reality and trashing people in unfortunate situations.

This thread is about automation, yet instead of being concerned about jobs being lost due to that very thing and only gig jobs being widely available, it’s better to instead dump on people getting chump change on unemployment.

GOP is nuts. Imagine getting your normal 6 figure government salary during a pandemic but being against one time stimmy checks and unemployment benefits.

That’s tyrant level selfishness right there. So what does it say about the people who vote for them?

I have a buddy that’s a cook. Working in dive bar type restaurants. Prior to COVID he held two jobs because neither gave him enough hours… also meaning neither gave any benefits. Between the two jobs he earned too much money to qualify for ‘welfare’ level healthcare. But he also earned too little to actually be able to afford healthcare coverage on the open market, while still paying rent and bills and such. So for years he’s been uninsured and generally avoiding caring for his medical needs. Since COVID, his unemployment along with the additional COVID monetary benefits, he was finally able to afford to see a dentist. He’s also been able to afford to have some much needed repairs done on his car. He’s actually now found some other employment which is paying him under the table. This has enabled him to keep drawing his unemployment. This is enabling him to get his medical needs met, his car fixed, and to put some money into a rainy day fund. Things he struggled to do despite working full time hours and being a hard worker… I couldn’t be happier for the guy. He’s a hard worker that’s been exploited by the system for years. I’m glad he’s getting one over on the system now.

They don't care that millions in our nation fall into this category. They don't care that millions of Americans can't afford healthcare. They don't care that the wages they are paid make it impossible for them to make a living. They don't care that we have a huge population of the working poor.

Because you know, capitalism, the market sets wages and crap. They obviously missed the history of FDR and the reason the minimum wage was established and try to deny it to suit their agenda. God help them if they have to pay an extra dollar for a burger.

Here is their standard line.....

“The minimum wage was never intended to be a ‘living wage,’ on which one could support oneself let alone a family,"

Yet that is nothing but a lie.



It's obvious that the federal minimum wage was set up for those at the bottom of the economic ladder to be able to make a living on that wage. In fact, that was the very reason it was established in the first place.

In response all we've heard are excuses why Americans should work while not being able to make a living. And then there are those who claim the government can't set a wage standard because of you know, "the market". Just because obstructionists within our government have made sure that "working class poverty" is an actual things doesn't mean people should support that. The market is paying what it wants to pay, not what it can pay. They dictate everything. Which is why laws like minimum wage came into being in the first place.

j/c...

I should probably get in on all this free money. I haven't worked in almost two years.

Folks on social security or Disability in Ohio get screwed. I lost my part time job when covid hit, and was eligible for unemployment. However Ohio is the only one out of all 50 states that take $1.00 of social security off of you for every $1.00 you get in unemployment. In all other 49 states I would have been able to collect unemployment without getting penalized.

Bro...damn man sorry to hear that.

Exactly. Hope your boy recovers fully from the financial hit.

If you qualify, you'd be stupid not to. I wish I qualified for it, but no I won't run out of work until the money is gone... then the economy collapses. Both the wife and I had more work during the pandemic than the year before and I really don't understand why.

But I have a friend, a guy I used to work with that got strung out on heroin and went through a lot trying to get straight. Well he was doing gig work when the pandemic hit, so he got the gig worker thing and got like 20K last year. He's back to gig working and still getting something I think, not sure what or how much. But if I wasn't working at all, I'll be damned if I would leave 20K sitting on the table without trying to get it.

You could probably draw it from the beginning if you lost work due to covid. Just saying.

Not altogether true..

Business pays what they think they can get away with.They'd pay $5 bucks an hour if they could get people to work for it. THirty years ago, that was not horrible...

The Government can make sure that it's at least something a person can live on. And they fail at that as well.

The issue I see being bad with federal min versus state min is that there is a large variation in Cost of Living throughout the country. I think min wage should be set at the state level, even if it is mandated and/or formulated at the federal level.

j/c...

Well look at that. When a ceo is desperate, they find magical stashes of money that came from rainbows to pay workers more.

I wonder how they figured it out. I mean we’re always told that increasing wages would ruin businesses.

Apparently not.

No, they don't. They increase prices.

Now we will see the great red fear of paying that extra buck a burger.

Now those of us on fixed incomes get it shoved up our backsides again with no lube.

Bro, you're not important. We need to make sure all the Gen Zs -- with no ambition, no work ethic and no skills -- can buy a car, house and boat. You know... a "living wage" for showing up and giving a half-hearted effort. If that means your sandwich is $84, suck it up buttercup.

Quit cha fussin! You and I and most of the grumps on here are on our way out. We're not gone yet, but we're not gonna change the world either. Besides fixed income just means you are already budgeting anyway, now you get to budget a little less. I'd rather pay more to the working poor than pay more for electric, gas, etc. AND we are already seeing upticks in the price of everything across the board... I'll be damned if I cry over WORKING PEOPLE getting paid more or a living wage. If I'm going to be angry, it will be at the corps who put us here and the rich that don't give a damn, not working people.

You would gripe if they were on welfare, you gripe because they want a wage they can live on, you gripe about the way they work... Gen Z and millennials have been forced into their parents basements until they are 30 because of the crappy ass economy OUR generation is handing them. So when you bust out that ridiculous $84 for your big mac, think about what the hell you did to help make that cost so much.

We as a working population have lived on credit so damn long we've forgotten how to live within our means. I mean we subsidize milk and other foods and have for years. We subsidize farmers to NOT grow crops... then we moan over the price of food... It's all a numbers game to the rich and those in power. Keep the working class poor and infighting over any differences rather it's the generation you were born or the color of our skin or how much others make doing a job you think is unskilled.

Those meat processors that were working and dropping like flies are not only some of the most highly skilled hard working people in the country, they are also grossly underpaid. Same with cashiers, city service workers, police, fire, food service, hospitality, etc. I don't get how anybody points the finger at them and says they don't deserve a wage high enough to live without public assistance. If you work full time 40+ hours, you shouldn't need welfare.

And I also guess you have no issue with companies like walmart underpaying its employees so much that they HAVE to have welfare just to survive. In case you haven't noticed, those aren't teenagers working those jobs.

Let me ask you this fate, were you happy those essential workers worked throughout the pandemic bringing you whatever you needed and risking their lives to keep the basics going? BUT now you think they are dumb and undeserving of a living wage? Go look at yourself in the mirror and see if you like the guy looking back at you. Did you ever struggle? Somehow I think you have and full well know what it's like. Yet your words don't reflect your experiences. smh

It will go far beyond a burger.

Housing costs are skyrocketing
So yeah, keep your eye fixed on that burger.

The prices were increasing ANYWAY. Good lord pay attention.

Pssstttt people who are on disability or social security ARE working people. At least most of them were for 30/40/50/ or 60 years. THOSE are the people who deserve a livable wage.

What?? What kind of sense does that make?

So currently working NOT disabled younger people don't deserve a living wage? smh, you are better than that. And I agree that the elderly and disabled should be able to live dignified lives after their productive years. But that doesn't mean others shouldn't have the same.

Yeah, the entire "Get off of welfare but work for so little you can't make a living" crowd drives me nuts. It appears as though they think people should go to work with no incentive to do so. It appears that they support some third class working citizens that work full time and can't even make it from paycheck to paycheck. It makes me sick.

And that's happening due to increased ages? No. It seems you are trying to blame a current problem on something totally unrelated. What saddens me the most is you can damned well afford price increases in order for the poor to make more money at their jobs yet you seem to begrudge that to them anyway.

So only "certain people" deserve better wages even when doing the same job and everyone else can just bite the big one?

Well, almost none of that had anything to do with my statement. I'll address most of it anyway...

Nobody is forced into their parent's basement unless they have ZERO ambition or desire for something better. Yet you state that two entire generations have been... en masse... and it's my fault?

"We as a working population have lived on credit so damn long we've forgotten how to live within our means."
That's unfortunate... If only they could be provided a calculator, maybe they could see the error of their ways?

"Same with cashiers, city service workers, police, fire, food service, hospitality, etc."
These people are all on welfare? Not sure where you get your numbers from, you might want to seek out some other sources. Here, I have direct experience with one of those rungs on the ladder. I owned a restaurant for 16 years (two for a few years), I've had as many as 75 employees. I have NEVER, ever, had more than two employees on welfare. Every time it was a single mother with kids. Does she deserve a "hand-up"? Sure. But the funny thing is, in nearly every incident, I was asked to under-report their wages and hours so that it wouldn't affect their benefits ~ OR ~ they made sure they were only available for enough hours to maintain their benefits. In your world, it's my fault she couldn't make ends meet.

Did I divorce her from her husband when they were up to their ears in debt? No.
Did I dress up as a stork and drop off three kids on her front porch? Nope.
Should I pay everybody based on how many kids they have? That doesn't make much sense.
YET -- I'm the bad guy.

In one specific incident, this mother came to me with a plan... She wanted to get off welfare because she saw that the mentality was a dead-end. We calculated how much she could make and still maintain healthcare benefits. She busted her ass, over a three year period she quadrupled what she made in the beginning. I didn't continue to reward her because she "had three kids", I did it because she worked hard and cared about my restaurant like it was her own. Today she works full-time at the Dept of Corrections, making 50k per year, and still works part time at the same restaurant. She walks in every other Saturday for a five hour shift -- and walks out with $120 - $150.

Another waitress started at age 21... Product of a bad upbringing and abuse. She worked her way through college. On her last day she came into my office with a thumbdrive and plugged in her spreadsheet. I was astounded that the was so thorough from the day she started. For her entire restaurant career she averaged 21.50 per hour. She cried as she thanked me for the opportunity -- I made it clear that her wage was a product of her own hard work, my restaurant was just the vehicle. She still works part time at the restaurant, mostly because she wants to help out, not because she really needs the cash -- she makes over 80,000 per year.

One dude was fed up with the hard work. He worked his way to $15 per hour with me, it wasn't enough. He went to work at two or three downtown establishments, making a name for himself despite no culinary degree. He made big bucks. He called one day for a reference, he was leaving his high-paying gig downtown.
"Why are you leaving?"
"I'm tired of being responsible for people who don't want to show up for work and don't want to work when they get there."
Today, he's a regional sales manager for US Foods making over 80k per year.

Another waitress worked her way through college, left for a real job with great wages, then came back. Why? "I'm young (25), I don't plan on getting married or having kids for a while. I love it here, we're like one big happy family. I love my customers. I'd like to take a more active role here." She became FOH manager and stayed for two more years before leaving for her "real job".

Starting to see a theme here?

^ What are all those examples? ^ People that had the common sense to realize that working in a restaurant is a stepping stone, not a career choice. If you make it a career choice, you might not live the Utopian life you're dreaming of.



There are those who make it a career choice. Imagine being a dishwasher for life and being happy with it? It happens. One dude was probably the most loyal employee in my tenure. Dial him up on a Saturday morning... "You need me? I'll be right there!"
Where did he start? Grew up in the ghetto, drug dealer in West Palm Beach. He had been shot twice, stabbed, and had all of his teeth bashed out with a baseball bat. What made him decide to get in a car and drive up north to become one of the few black dudes in the middle of Amish country? Lord only knows. Two years in, he was still living in the shadows of his former mistakes in life... kept getting popped for driving without a license. Wasn't allowed a license because he had $18,000 in fines and court costs. We worked with Florida, I spent countless hours on the phone to get to the right person that was willing to take a peek at someone turning their life around and work towards a solution. In the end, I wrote a $2500 check and we translated the rest of his fines to community service in Ohio so he could get a license and change his life... he was pretty tired of riding a bicycle to work or asking for rides.
"Still showing up for community service bro?"
"I got to!"
Dude worked his butt off, always cared about the restaurant as if it were his own. He'd come in on Mondays and help with maintenance, I paid him $100 per month to blow out compressors on coolers every other week. Two hours per month, $100. Why? It costs me a lot more to pay for constant cooler repairs and I'm too busy to do it myself.
When I left he was one of the highest paid dishwashers in history. NOT because I overpaid him, because he made himself worth that much.

I could go on all day. The theme remains that if you work hard, have common sense about you work ethic and choices of employment, strive towards a goal -- you'll do alright in life.


Aaaand... since this has turned into a novel that no one will read, I'll address your last statements.

I appreciate everybody that works hard for a living, pandemic or no pandemic. Why? Because I DID struggle.
I lost both parents by the age of six.
I was a ward of the state.
I've been through five different family situations and went to eight different schools.
By 23 I had a wife and three kids.
I worked 70 hours per week so my wife could be a "stay at home".
I bought most of my clothes at Goodwill 'til I was almost 30.
We did without.
We made sacrifices.
I still saved and saved until I could buy my own restaurant.
I risked everything including my marriage to make it happen.
I drove to work with knots in my stomach, praying to God for help, when the restaurant couldn't pay the bills at the beginning.
I REFUSED TO FAIL.

I started as a burger flipper and ended my foodservice career SURROUNDED by success stories, not just my own. I helped, I mentored, and created humans willing to do the same. WE fed the homeless and donated to worthy causes. WE did things like catered meals for crisis intervention programs, abused mothers, drug addiction facilities, etc... For free. I bought the food, employees came and worked for ZERO.

The dude from Florida? When he got kicked out of one apartment because he couldn't pay the rent, because he was tossed in jail for driving without a license, my employees helped him find a new place. The previous was your basic crack house -- four different dudes living there -- he was heading down the same tired road. Dude had nothing but some clothes when I showed up to help him move out. When he hit me up to see his new apartment, the day after he moved in -- I was shocked. My employees made a shopping list and had the place furnished the day he moved in. Couch, bed, microwave, dishes, towels, you name it -- it was there. Dude looked at me with tears in his eyes. "I gotta do better, you guys have done so much for me, but I gotta do better" THAT's when his conviction changed and we worked together to turn the rest of his life around.

What am I to you? A dude that lived a life of "white privilege"... The bad-guy-business-owner that took advantage of everyone as if they were tried and sentenced to work in my restaurant for a slave wage.

Do I begrudge anybody a "living wage" (whatever that means)? NO. But you have to earn it. Life isn't a vending machine where everybody puts in a quarter and receives the same gumball.

What do you think is better, more sustainable? If everyone strives to be an example like the ones above... get's rewarded for hard work, helps others get to the same place ~ OR ~ we all show up like drones and make the same wage regardless of our ambition, work ethic or direction in life? Seriously?

So, I know you think I'm evil or don't care about others. Jaded and ignorant -- can't see the forest through the trees... Colored "red" when all the good people paint themselves blue, etc, etc... As long as you keep painting in such broad strokes -- with only two colors, you'll accomplish nothing but endless arguments, hatred and finger-pointing. If that's what you need to make yourself feel better, that's fine. But let me ask you a question... What are YOU doing to make a difference besides attacking people on Dawgtalkers?

You don't have to answer, but make no mistake...

What I see when I look in the mirror and what you think I see could not be any more different.

While I won't use the word welfare per say, what happens is that the taxpayer does pay for benefits of many people who work for corporations that make billions. I call it corporate welfare.

Let me give you an example. In Ohio a family of four qualifies for Medicaid if they make less than $3,013 per month. That's over 36k a year. A pregnant woman qualifies if they make less than $2,180 per month.

This means if someone has a family of four, even if they make 17$ an hour, works 40 hours a week for 52 weeks a year without a day off, you and other tax payers will be paying their healthcare bill.

Yes, a family of three would have to make less but it's well above the poverty level and far beyond anything close to the minimum wage. A pregnant woman alone would have to earn over 12$ an hour.

https://www.policygenius.com/blog/a-state-by-state-guide-to-medicaid/

If you can't see that we are allowing businesses to pay wages that are so low that our tax dollars must subsidize their employees as some of these corporations make billions while at the same time pay a lower percentage in taxes than you do, then we disagree about it being a problem.

This is by far the longest post I ever remember you making... did I hit a nerve?

I mean don't take this convo personal, when I addressed you, I was really addressing the issue of others not valuing those around them. Like, I think you are only worth $2 an hour and think it would be stupid for anybody to pay you more than that because it's all you are worth.

Obviously people should work to earn their money... BUT if you are doing the job, day in and out, putting in 40+, then you should not live in poverty, period. Can we agree to that much? I'm not sure you can.

And I used to sound like you about people on welfare. I used to get mad when others got handouts too, often feeling like I work much harder and they just slide by on the generosity of the system... Then I realized how big of a crock of crap that mindset is. Those people never took a nickel out of my pocket that I didn't willingly give. The government spends so much tax money that I could get bent that these people are getting my tax dollars, but it's either them, the MIC, or some third world despot getting foreign aid. I would rather help those in my country that are struggling, regardless of the reason they are struggling because that is never black and white. But I absolutely get where you are coming from, I just think it's an ugly place.

And btw, I do a lot to help others. Donating, I help twice a year with food drives, volunteer help for DAV events a couple times a year, and we try to donate as many gifts as we can for children at christmas. I do that along with the daily things I run into. Just last week a woman was at the cashier at Kroger and was short a few dollars, I noticed her looking at the sparse cart for some staple she could do without to make up the difference... Everytime I see this kind of thing I try to help with a few buck that mean little to me but the world to them.

And FYI, I spend an average of about 1/2 an hour a day on here. Most days I stop in a few times, read and make a couple post then I'm out, so you trying to paint me as the keyboard warrior is a farce. Try again.

If you did all that and still wasn’t making much money then I don’t know what your point is. Cause the things OCD and I are talking about would help you, not hurt.

I read your post thoroughly...and I’m not sure how any point you made would remotely change how OCD and I view this. Like, at all.

No matter how you try to frame it, just like individuals aren’t entitled to a 100k lifestyle, companies aren’t entitled to cheap labor.

That’s the part that you and others keep missing. Companies are not entitled to cheap labor, whether they call themselves a small business or a corporation. These companies don’t WANT to pay people. This is why they moved so many jobs overseas from the jump, remember?

They saved so much money on labor cost and STILL jacked up the prices. When I look at how jacked up corporations have made the labor force in this country, I’m simply not gonna align myself with dudes who defend entities that don’t give two craps about you or anyone else.

You’re defending people who would fire you and give your job to someone in China - or a robot - KNOWING that those same corporations are ALSO looking for a way to replace Chinese workers with cheaper labor.

You and I clearly won’t come to any understanding on this. Just isn’t gonna happen.

Haha. You hit a nerve on most days, today I just started typing instead of rolling my eyes lol. Sorry for all the rambling.

I don't think I was lumping all welfare recipients into the same category, I don't even know how you got that from what I wrote. I just think categorizing all business owners as living "high on the hog" while they treat their employees like slaves is ridiculous. That seems to be the going sentiment around here, at least with the people that are vocal.

We can agree on the "working 40 hours day in and day out" 100 percent! Why aren't there mandates that require that? I did it because I respected the work of my employees, others - not so much. It's no secret that's the reason why I had the best staff of any restaurant around me. But make no mistake, very few restaurants have the capability to provide one with "the great life", two cars and a boat, college funds and retirement plans. It simply will never work that way. It's not because of the restaurants, it's because consumers will never pay $30 for a cheeseburger.

Sounds like you're a good dude -- we all should strive to be half as good. My restaurant family donated thousands to DAV, that's a great charity that makes sure the money goes where it belongs. And the grocery store thing? That's one of my "heart is full" moments, handing a guy $20 while he was putting things back in the cart to take off the bill. Trying to provide for his family. It wasn't "thanks", it was a grown man crying, cashier crying, me trying to get them both to wipe their tears and smile while I gave the dude a hug and told him to pay it forward someday. Life is full of those opportunities and you will NEVER get more satisfaction from a $20 bill.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm guilty of categorizing as well and I took it out on you to an extent. It is so tiresome to argue about the same issues, over and over, when neither party wants to see another point of view. I'll try to do better.

It seems you are managing to confuse a livable wage with two cars and a boat?

Can you explain how you managed to reach to such extreme measures?

Most of us are just talking about people making enough your tax dollars aren't subsidizing their incomes.

Touche -- you're right. I only talk in those extremes because that is the mindset of others, with their crazy extremes.

To be fair, some posters here think a snotty-nosed kid pressing a button to put coffee in a cup deserves 15-20 bucks an hour -- they've said as much, numerous times. I don't. There is no way in hell they'll ever achieve that mysterious "living wage" by providing a skillset that can be accomplished by any six-year-old with a pulse. Just ain't gonna happen, no matter how much you want it to. For anybody that places their ambition to "achieve" at that level -- they'll probably always need a government subsidy. I don't even mind that, or that my tax dollars pay for it. It's a much better choice than giving them all $20 per hour to press a button. Sorry, not sorry.

There are millions of entry-level jobs in this world. They aren't and were never meant to provide a "living wage". If that's your ambition level, you'll get the crumbs... or better yet... enough to put gas in your car, pay your insurance and take the girlfriend to the school dance. THAT'S who those jobs are made for, and there will be an endless supply of people willing to do that work for those wages -- unless we all stop making babies.

Paying $15 for someone to "press a button" is quite a demeaning stretch. I think there can be a discussion into the value of the work being performed, but that type of analogy I think actually lends credence to the counterargument that there is an out-of-touch, lack of empathy coming from those who do not want to see the wages increased.

On the flip side, I also think you could apply that analogy to CEOs. When you think about it, the CEO at Lockheed Martin controls a company that is almost entirely earning its revenue from government resources. Can you say that the ratio of his salary to the average worker represents a true value of what he should be paid for his job?

This argument is one I see often but isn’t well thought out.
Who is supposed to work at McD’s or other such ‘low importance’ jobs when school is in?
Am I as a nurse going to need to start pulling day shifts at McD’s to keep their labor needs afloat until the last bell rings at the local high school?

Yet I have posted on here more than once that the very reason a federal minimum wage was brought about in the first place was to provide a bottom level wage that provides for people to make a livable wage.

I get the premise of what you're saying. I get that we could both come up with extreme examples in both directions. Star Bucks is one such extreme. There are also many people working in manufacturing not making a living wage. There are people in retail not making a living wage.

So you're saying Star Bucks whose net worth is over 30 billion dollars shouldn't pay its workers a living wage? And that we as tax payers should be paying this multi billion dollar corporations employee healthcare? Really?

Actually the 15$ an hour wage isn't a "living wage", that's just the term used to describe it.

I've always thought the same thing. It seems like the argument being made is that fast food and fast casual restaurants should be closed during school hours. Hopefully, those kiddos don't have any extracurricular activities after school hours!

There’s going to be a lot of hungry day shift workers going hungry when all those places need to close for school hours. The lines at those drive though windows get long at lunch hour. Guess they need to start packing lunches.

Well, if you go into your local McDonalds during morning hours, there are generally "older" people working... school or no school. What are they getting paid? Hell if I know, I would bet that they make more, probably not much more. Many of them are older people who want to (or need to) make a few bucks. Many probably want a few hours per week, while the kids are in school, to supplement their income.

We go back to the bottom line -- working at McDonalds is a very weak career choice because you won't make much money. Anybody working there should be trying to get the hell out (if they want to make more), and finally, nobody is shackled and chained and forced to work at McDonalds.

And they could go door to door cutting grass and make LOTS more money. But we all know homeowners are more accountable to pay kids well than corporations are.

And as usual, while I type that, two ridiculous posts appear here. Yep, close McDonalds during morning hours and everybody pack a lunch.

Well who is that is working there full time during school hours if the jobs are intended for high school kids?

***Read your post above.

Why do we have people talking as if it’s only young people working these minimum wage jobs? Last I checked, the bulk of these low hourly wage jobs are worked by adults all around our ages, in all demographics.

Has our federal minimum wage increased with inflation? The cost of everything has gone up, but not the minimum wage.

You can say I'm out of touch, but the facts are the facts. The job requires absolutely no skillset and can be accomplished by a first-grader.

"The flip side" is egregious. I've never in my life stated anything different. Our country is owned by corporations and Wall Street. It makes me want to puke. How do they keep it that way? They keep us divided by color (red or blue) and we scream at each other instead of trying to change what's wrong. How does a corp make billions with less tax liability than you or I? They buy politicians whose sole obligations seem to be helping the corps make more money, pay less taxes, and keep you and I at each other's throats.

What if everybody put 1/50th the effort into fighting for campaign reform, tax reform, term limits; as they do for "Fifteen For All"?

We keep kicking kneecaps instead of punching people in the face. Until we do, nothing changes. Once we do, the paradigm shift could accomplish nearly everything we fight about.

NO, NO, NO, and hell no. What you are saying is a 16 year old working 10 hours a week deserves a better income than those 60/70/ and 80 year olds who worked their entire life deserve. We will but heads like two giant old rams on this one bro.

You probably need to "check harder". Walk into Chipotle, Dunkin, Burger King and you see that 80% of the employees are under 25.

Minimum wage NEEDS TO GO UP, by leaps and bounds, over a short period of time, with caveats.

Minimum wage for under 18
Minimum wage for 18-21
Mandatory wage increases for service time
Much higher minimum wage for over 20 hours

And yes, subsidies for those who are "stuck at" minimum. I don't even care if it's their own fault. That makes much more sense than taking an AXE to the middle-class and fixed income by paying everybody double what they're making now.

I agree with a large part of what you said.

However, as someone who has a kindergartener and second grader, I don't think they are quite ready for a job in customer service making various coffee/espresso drinks.

My wife used to work at Panera when she was putting herself through school, as well. It was more demanding - at least physically - than she originally anticipated. It's one thing to look down from afar, and it's another thing to actually do the job.

That is exactly what you and others are saying. Your saying young folks deserve it and old folks can go make love to themselves.

Nope. In my eyes every corp making over a certain profit threshold should be forced to reward the people "doing the work" a certain percentage of the profit. You know the paradigm that "corporations should work on the behalf of shareholders"? I think that entire plan should be scrapped and turned inside out. It's fubar. The obligation should be to the employees and the shareholders get the scraps.

We need some massive changes in how "top heavy" this country is. That is the problem. Not the small business owner that pays himself/ herself last. Most of my endless rambling is because small business employs 70-80% of the workers in this country and get's lumped together with "all that is evil".

Yeah, that "duty to shareholders" paradigm really set things on a very bad course. It'll be hard to change it because it would mean that Wall Street would suffer.

Lol. I've done that work my entire life bro. Not looking down from afar, providing a glimpse from the inside.

No -- six-year-olds can't pour coffee, but if anybody with a pulse can accomplish the task, how much should the pay be?

Not $2.13 an hour with the hope for tips.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/u-s-jo...4?siteid=yhoof2

I applaud you for trying, but some just don't or won't get it.

They don't understand inflation. They blame corporations, and yet 8,100,000 jobs are open. Right now.

While McDonalds, and fast food restaurants were never to be 'livable wage' jobs - some want that. Inflation is here. And most of those griping about 'not being paid a livable wage' are the ones that buy their crap from companies overseas - so they can save a buck or so.

It's the old "pay me more for my job, but I'm buying stuff made from other countries cause it's cheaper" attitude.


Mishmash of thoughts here: 1. Some people don't understand a LOT of stuff. You don't start at the top. 17 year old nephew started a job about 6 months ago. 8.85 an hour. He's now at well over 12 an hour. Why? Cause he shows up, and does the work, very well. I know some will say that's me being unmindful of the so called 'big picture'.........but jobs are out there.

At least, here. Companies cannot find people that show up for work!!! Period.

When people can make - get - enough by sitting at home doing nothing, what do you think they'll do?

Jobs are available.

But, no, we need to poo poo the jobs and the work ethic in order to give to those that can, but won't. They blame republicans, or capitalism. They blame companies making a profit. Many of them are also getting a pension that they feel they self funded. Uh, they paid in some, but the stock market is the one making them the money. I just get sick............."hey, I paid in for 30, 40 years - I better get my monthly pension", and then turn around and want to accuse companies of making a profit. (no matter what they think, that pension money is coming from businesses making a profit)

I've listed several places just around here that will pay $20-$27 an hour for part time work on Sat. and Sunday.

We've got one guy on here saying even $20 an hour isn't a livable wage.

We've got another that has a friend who is cheating the system - getting unemployment PLUS working a job and getting paid 'under the table' and he's proud of that person. ????

I could go on and on. Some don't understand economics, or business, yet they profess to be experts on it. When costs go up, so do prices for the product they produce. Period. No way around it.

When costs to produce a product go up, so do prices. Period.

Let's lift everyone up, right? Or is it "let's suck everyone down"?

{crickets}

god some people still wanna be stuck back in the the early 1900's sometimes. i don't get it.

anyways, back to automation.

gonna be really interesting to watch how the global shortage of damn near everything, but especially semiconductors, affects companies ability to automate. now would be nice for a big trade deal with a few countries with trillions worth of resources.

I didn’t say I was proud of him but I certainly am not begrudging him. He’s working hard at his under the table job. As hard as he ever worked as a cook. He’s trying to catch on as a full time employee at his under the table job. If that happens he’ll be another in a long line of professional kitchen help/cooks, including myself, that liked the job but hated the pay and moved on. Now the restaurant owners are wondering where their workforce went. Here’s part of the answer.

Addendum: I will say I’m proud of my buddy. I’m proud that he’s taken this opportunity to use this financial windfall to get himself healthy. To see a doctor and a dentist. I’m proud that he’s smart enough to use that money to also fix his car. So I guess I am proud of him. He’s not looked a gift horse in the mouth. He’s a good, hard working man.

The chip shortage, like much of the materials shortage going on right now, is temporary. Pent up demand from people that weren't buying stuff making up for lost time, and supply chains that were dialed back now having to speed back up will eventually get themselves sorted out.

What I'm hoping to see is for us to take a long, hard look at how we've gotten ourselves to this point (entire industries relying on relatively few suppliers in specific locations to supply critical components). There was a story I saw somewhere (might've been here) about Kentucky speedway being rented out for Ford pickups to sit and wait for chips to be installed. These are like 99% completed trucks that you KNOW could otherwise be sold immediately that have to sit and wait. These chip makes have the entire world banging on their door, you'd have to think there are people here in the US thinking along the lines of, "we really need to take steps to remove the risk from our supply chain". The costs savings of sourcing materials from overseas have to look not-so-great when you have parking lots of pickups that can't be sold.

Actually it was you who said they shouldn't make more than you did while at the same time saying you too worked part time. You do realize that you would also make more, right?

Do you have any idea how much more you made during your working life than your grandparents did? Should during your working life should your generation have been working at a wage that did not afford you any spending power?

You seem to pretend as though that's not the way it's always been. Each generation has made more money than the one preceding it. Just look around you. When I was a kid you could get three pounds of ground chuck for a dollar.

If they work 40 hours, enough to live. Nobody working 40 hours a week in America should be living in poverty.

This includes all minimum wage jobs in our nation. There are no caveats. This is EXACTLY the reason FDR set up the federal minimum wage. I know what you posted is a popular myth by those thinking we should have some sub level of workers to serve you while they live in poverty. But what I quoted you saying is patently false.

Restaurants are feeling a labor crunch. Teens are an unlikely solution
PUBLISHED WED, MAY 12 202111:01 AM EDT

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/restaura...y-solution.html

Looking for teens for cheap labor, knowing a lot of adults ain’t gonna work those trash jobs for what they’re paying.

And now bigger companies like chipotle and such are paying people more, why in gods name would people choose to work at a small restaurant with a stingy owner and even worse customer base?

Either raise the pay or go extinct. I don’t feel bad for any restaurant going through it right now. They know they was out here getting a crap ton of hours from their employees with sweat shop levels of pay. And now they ticked off that the cheap labor doesn’t want to be treated like cheap labor anymore.

Adapt or die. That does speak to the heart of conservatism and capitalism, after all. Either do what you have to do to keep your business running or die off.

Man I’m starting to like conservative ideology. Conservative small business owners don’t give a damn about paying people what they’re worth.

So now I practice conservatism by not giving a crap what happens to small business owners. This is starting to get fun.

While it's not pretty, this is how it should work. Companies are going to pay what the market dictates they should pay, or they're going to look around and see that nobody is doing the work. The interesting part will be how these business owners adjust to the higher wages. Even places like Chipotle and Starbucks and such aren't guaranteed unlimited revenue. If the business isn't at least breaking even, then what the people are being paid is actually moot, because nobody will have jobs at that place for long.

So.

That's like saying those poor plantations will disappear without slaves. If they can't pay living wages then they are not a real business, they are just opportunistic oppressors taking advantage of the working poor. Republicans are all about cutting entitlement programs; the best way to do that is to move people off of them with living wages.

It's far far less dramatic than you're making it sound. With the example of Chipotle, the wages were too low, they found themselves without workers, so they raised wages. This is how it's supposed to work.

Plantations were around long before minimum wage. Let's recap one more time why we have a minimum wage in the first place.



At the point where capitalism abuses its workers there are safeguards in place that are supposed to prevent that. Capitalism isn't an unbridled mechanism without limitations no matter how much people try to indicate otherwise.

So far politicians have circumvented this safeguard for well over a decade in a concerted effort to allow capitalism to take advantage of the very people the minimum wage law was passed into law to protect in the first place. We keep hearing excuses why it has become okay to have workers in America to work 40 hours for poverty wages. Enough is enough.

j/c...

That's no surprise, all the GOPer states are starting to do that. I feel sorry for those that are depending on it for whatever reasons but not for those milking the system.

j/c...

I worked at Cedar Point right after graduating high school. I took photos for those stupid keychains. It was fairly brutal. The hours sucked as it was often split shift. Working from just before gates open until noon. Then from 5 until everyone was out of the park. And they meant EVERYONE. Even that last drunk dude stumbling from way back to in Frontierland to the front gates could drop $5 much needed dollars into the Cedar Point coffers. “Can’t close until he’s gone.” Stupid drunk. I’d crawl back to my dorm bunk at like 1am and have to do it all again the next day. I got paid fairly well. It was like $6 an hour plus commission for how much film you shot and how many keychains of yours were sold. On a busy Saturday I could shoot 13 rolls of film. Each roll had 64 frames. I’d make between $10-17 an hour. This was good money in the summer 1990.
The working conditions kinda sucked. Standing in the hot sun on pavement all day. I got physically ill from the heat one day. Threw up. They let me sit in the AC for about 20 minutes then pushed me back out to keep shooting film. It sucked. Especially because my roommate had a cush job. He was Papa Bear in the Barenstien Bear Country. He worked 8 hour days but was only on for 30 minutes at a time. With 30 minute breaks in between. Sure it was hot snd he took the occasional nut shot from a bratty kid, but still. He was also paid better as a flat rate. The performers all made good money.

The nights off were fun. Beach parties. ‘Summer love’. We had access to the park all night. It’s actually really cool to walk it after hours. So quiet. They’d open up rides occasionally late night. You haven’t ridden the Demon Drop or Gemini until you’ve ridden it 5 times in a row without a pause. Same could be said for any of the rides they’d open.

Overall it was an okay experience. I got fed up after a month and walked. Went back to restaurant work. Then off to college.

That's a great story. Reminds me of the movie Adventureland.

Seems like it would have been brutal being in one of those Berenstein Bears costumes, particularly if you were hungover.

My Wife did the CP Summer thing one year.

She worked the arcade. Back than, the workers called it "The Animal Shelter."

She called her folks after the first month, wanting to come home. They told her to stay, and take responsibility. "We're not raising you to be a quitter..."

She described the place much as you do, but her experience was 20 years earlier. I guess Human Nature doesn't change.

A couple of classmates did the theater thing one summer. You may have envied some of their perks, but they thought it was brutal, too. Same show(s) all summer. Nobody felt like practicing for the new school year's private lessons.