https://www.reddit.com/r/chicago/co...xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

I would suggest if you don't like them not to buy one.

So... the equivalent of less than five gallons of gasoline? Wow. That's terrible... and a bit scary since your life revolves around finding the nearest charging station like a treasure hunt.


At least they only take 2 hours to charge... if the credit card scanner works.

It's so cold, Teslas are struggling to charge in Chicago

At least we have no chargers...


https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-chargers-billions-00129996

Two states have started construction though! I'm sure we'll have a few in the ground by the election. I can read the headlines now, telling of this incredible victory towards saving the planet.

Hybrid is the best option until the dinosaurs are all gone. And we’re always going to need gas for bic lighters and such.

No worries bro. I already have my next gas powered model all picked out. That should last me till 2035. By then maybe they will have worked out some of the bugs on static powered cars.

I agree. That is why I bought one last March. I average around 43 MPG on the road and around 45 in town...a Honda Accord...full size car.

When I fill up my computer says I have 550 miles of range based on my previous averages. I'll call that good.

I have nothing against electric, and hope we can make it work, but it doesn't work except for people do only commute in town, don't believe in running air conditioning or heat, and have a charging station in the garage. For everybody else, it's fools gold...at least for now and several decades in to the future.

LOL....gets cold and you can only go 10% of what you thought...have fun walking home.

I love the idea and promise of EV's. But still, I have problems with them that have not been resolved. Range, Charging time and Price. To add to that, cost of Replacing batteries. Those things seem tough to solve, but we can do it. It's just not time yet.

Like I said, I hope so, but maybe we can't. No doubt we can probably improve things just like we haven't cured cancer but have been able to make the prognosis better.

I still think it will be mostly for intown with small cars that have limited range. If one wants total recharging ability, they will need to purchase a in home charging station.

I have no idea what those cost. Add it that younger people are more inclined to rent rather than buy a home. Then you can't even do that. The trend is that Americans will become renters much like it was for the first 40 years of the 20th century.

I’ve heard whispers of battery banks. You drive in and they slide out the battery system and swap it out in 5 minutes. Batteries on a deposit system. Sounds like a plan. New jobs. I’ve also seen car train lanes in my dreams. A lane for long distance travelers, where autos actually magnetically connect and use the collective power of all.

I find this to be false, and I just drove to Chicago last weekend in an EV...

Two good posts. Range, charging time and price should solve itself over time. The battery replacement issue is huge imo... we're getting very close to the time when there are many used EVs on the market. That will coincide with 'new' getting cheaper. Hell, Hertz is selling off 20,000 EVs and switching back to gas... mostly because of how quickly they're becoming devalued.

Who wants to buy a ticking time bomb? Battery replacement should be mandated at or below cost from the manufacturer. It won't be very 'green' if it becomes more prudent to throw the carcass in the sea rather than buy a new battery. "Not time yet" revolves around us (read: corps and govt, and we know how that works) making better long-term decisions that affect how this all will work.

Charging stations in homes or apartments are 100% necessary. Apartments: swipe your user card, cost goes directly on your personal electric bill, no b.s. and profiteering. Home: electric ports should be mandated in new construction by now. It's very hard to get accurate info, but I think we're on the way. New parking lots over xx spaces, xx electric stations should be mandated. It cuts the cost by 75% over a retrofit anyway.

Electric cars are the future. Forcing it down the consumer's throat is stupid, especially when it seems valid concerns are ignored. Letting this play out over time is a 50 year proposition -- treat it that way by making prudent choices. Don't punish Americans by making stupid choices on oil and fossil fuels, it only exacerbates resistance and makes us look like idiots on the world stage... while they finish burning what's left.

/rant

I'm glad that worked out for you. Those stories were all over the news (maybe not State TV). Let me know if you need more links. Obviously Teslas and obviously not all of them, but nobody would ever want to be in that position.

I forgot, which model do you drive?

Yeah and I’m not trying to say it harshly either. Just find it very odd.

I drive the Y. Charged once on the way from Cincy. Took about 20 mins. Same thing coming home. Charging was included with the hotel but we didn’t use it all weekend.

Why would he need a link? He owns one and just drove it to Chicago. And those are the stories you won't hear. Everyone is quick to complain when something gives them problems. You'll certainly hear those stories. People aren't going to tell you when something performed the way it should unless they're asked.

Because he sounded as if maybe he was questioning the story, that's all.

And very few people are going to tell you they ran out of gas and a gas station was nowhere to be found. Even fewer people are going to tell you that it was really cold and their gas mileage was cut in half. One of these things is much rarer than the other or we wouldn't be having this conversation. So, if you're trying to promote a speed-of-light paradigm shift (extreme left greenies) you're going to have to answer to these stories, no matter how few or far between.

People hate change. Change with built in horror stories far outside the norm they are used to, no matter how 'anecdotal', is a tough sell. A slow sell at best.

Isn’t that the truth. Horse and buggy’s are still in use in AMISH-Ville.

I actually believe, and have said so many times, that at the current time I believe EV's are best suited for local travel. Like the family car that is mainly used for shopping, taking the kids to school and soccer practice. That sort of thing. Very short mileage trips. I don't feel it has advanced enough for all forms of travel.

There is a big difference in terms of charging locations. Some locations have far more charging stations per capita than others. So just how much of an issue that is varies widely.

Survey Reveals Most & Least EV-Friendly Cities

https://www.automotive-fleet.com/10194076/survey-reveals-most-least-ev-friendly-cities

And people do hate change. The only real difference I see now is that those who hate change rail against it. Before it seemed that people would simply decide it wasn't for them, not buy it and move on. I mean i never bought a pet rock myself. And while i thought buying one was stupid i never went around yelling about it. Not trying to say that's what you're doing here by any means. There is certain technology that i see differently however. Like AI. It will impact us all whether we participate in purchasing it or not. But now it's as though if they don't like something they want to make some personal crusade out of it. That part of it I don't quite understand. But then again I wasn't around when the main mode of travel changed over from the horse and buggy to the automobile took place. Almost but not quite. lol It wouldn't surprise me if people weren't saying "Yeah, but I can just feed my horse a bail of hay that I grow and you have to travel and try to find gasoline!"

Then too they didn't have social media around where they could just go out and throw a public tantrum about it to the masses.

Shut up! That's part of their religion! (While they drink in the buggy and have drag races on a Saturday night... cranking their booming systems and talking on their cell phones).

Good post. And I'm sure you're right about the horse and buggy days. I bet thousands of people actually called them the devil and found some bible verses to point to the end of the world.

Here's part of the difference to me... nobody shamed you for having a dog instead of a pet rock and no government told you dogs would be outlawed in ten years and all homes would have a pet rock instead. If so, you may have railed.

That's the part of human nature that is simply never going to change. It starts at age two when raving lunatics storm around the house yelling, screaming and throwing [censored] because they don't want to be told what to do.

I was the new guy working under a long-time chef. Right away, other cooks made it clear that it was chef's way or the highway. Good ideas would get shot down. I taught these guys: "We have to make it his idea". A few days later I was demonstrative and loud about how we organized pans... something like "I wish we had a... nah, that would never work". A few days after that I walked in and there was a new pot rack attached to the ceiling "It will work if you put some thought into it", he said with a arrogant grin on his face. If we would have asked for a pot rack he would have told us to pound salt. It had to be his idea. Pretty soon we would just plant seeds for everything we wanted to change, within days or weeks it would be his idea. We wanted to carve pork loin on Sundays to make the day easier, assuming the masses would love it. We plotted, I brought it up in front of him, the other guys shot it down "that would never work!". Two weeks later: Roast Pork Loin was a Sunday staple -- and stayed that way for years.

EVs will need to be every individual's good idea, shoving it down their throats will just make it take decades longer. jmho

I totally agree with you. One thing the left is terrible at is marketing. They use phrases and sayings that instantly anger so many people. But I do think there's a difference between goals and mandates. I know there is the goal to make vehicles carbon neutral by I think it's 2035. There are some liberal states however where I think such mandates do exist. Setting this as a goal is a nice goal if you can get the technology up to snuff by then. But it's stupid to suggest some big switch with so many kinks left to work out. I think when one looks at it, it's the auto manufactures that seem more than willing to totally overhaul all of their models over to EV. There may be some mandate that is forcing them to but I haven't seen it. I don't feel that approach is smart from the left or the manufactures. But trying to force this down people's throats will never work and it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

I'll give you a prime example. Everyone knows the police are overwhelmed dealing with the mentally ill. A lot of their budget is spent towards that and it takes up so much of their time which could and should be spent on their actual purpose, fighting crime. There is no doubt the police would love not having to deal with the mental health issue in this country anymore. Republicans have been speaking out about addressing the mental health issues in our nation for years as well. I think those are things people on both sides of the political aisle could agree on. In order to accomplish that you would have to analyze how much money the police are currently spending on the mental health issue and transfer those funds into the mental health care coffers to help address those costs. It's simply using the same money to address the same problem only in a better setting to address the problem.

So what do the dumb ass liberals decide to call that? Defund the police. What morons.

Often times in life it's not what you're saying but how you say it. And the liberals suck at it.

Well, it happens in both camps as they all specialize in derisiveness and grandstanding. Which results in nothing getting done... and the people that pay the bills and vote being 100% disenfranchised on both sides.

It's crazy how easy we all get caught up in anecdotes. The media and politicians take a small story and act like it represents the big picture. It happens every day and we eat it up. They're used car salesmen getting us to bite on b.s. and superlatives that simply don't represent the real product. Hell, I'll even admit that the above story about the EVs in Chicago fits that criteria, so I'm no better. Then I think it's okay because I'm just 'fighting fire with fire'. I'll also be honest and say I had no idea these things perform so badly in extreme weather. On one hand, those days are few and far between; on the other I'm sure as hell not down with feeling like I'm trapped in the LM from Apollo 13 when I'm trying to make a trip home after the weekend. 🤣

I think things like "The Green New Deal" do more damage than they'll ever do good. Outlandishly improbable, if not impossible. Then on the heels of that we start hearing about outlawing gas stoves... and waking up to see a hole where your dishwasher once sat, as a lefty stole it in the middle of the night. It just all creates a big ball of "screw you"... "Noooo, screw you!!" It's dumb and counter productive. Most people in this world want to do good, want to help, want to save the planet, want to get along with their brothers and sisters. Quit telling them what to do. Tell them what may be a good idea... and figure out a way to make it their idea.

And oh yeah, reading your post it hit me like a ton of bricks... shouldn't all police cars be electric?? Talk about short trips. Mandate super-chargers at all donut shops. Make the electric companies install the chargers at the cop shops and pay for the electric.

I certainly tend to agree with you. The only difference I would say is that I think "The Green New Deal" does more good than harm. And maybe that's a difference about our feelings on the impact of global warming more than anything. But I certainly think we have to head in a new direction in regards to energy. We are producing more oil than ever before as a nation. The U.S.has been the #1 oil producing nation in the world since 2018. Yet we still depend on OPEC for about 15% of our oil. We are such a glutinous country that our insatiable appetite for oil knows no bounds.

But much like yourself I believe the "The Green New Deal" goes too far with too much frivolous, non essential spending involved.

One thing I have noticed today is that when we discuss things rather than the fight fire with fire method we both usually employ, discussions between us go much better. I may even change my mind and let you start calling me sweetie if you keep it up.

Well shouldn't the power companies volunteer to to install those and pay for the power out of a sense of public duty? I mean what a great PR stunt that would be! And the acceleration rate on those EV's is amazing!

lmao. I've told you a thousand times -- you had me at hello.

And hell yeah, what's wrong with that? Especially since these energy companies have been so corrupt for so long. Payback. It took us decades of fighting back before we finally stumbled on the solution of 'community aggregation' to keep them honest.

Want the community contract? Offer the best fixed rate and provide infrastructure utilities for free, to help run a tight ship for the taxpayers. That's a drop in the bucket of the contract rewards. And don't tell me that's crazy... the first time a mayor or council demanded that, they would get it. A no-brainer and a win-win for all sides.

I love the idea and promise of EV's. But still, I have problems with them that have not been resolved to my liking. Range, Charging time and Price. To add to that, cost of Replacing batteries. Those things seem tough to solve, but we can do it. It's just not time yet.

I feel like I've read that somewhere before.

Yeah I will say, as much as I do enjoy my car for local commutes - and it’s easy - plug it in every night and the “tank is full to start each day - I much prefer our minivan to the longer road trips. It’s night and day. We happened to take the Tesla to Chicago mostly for the fact the van needed an oil change and I didn’t have time to do it before the trip.

I think a lot of the problems with any initiatives or bills, like the Green New Deal, is the outright corruption for how money gets spent. You can see on the back end just how many hands are in the cookie jar when it’s brought to the kitchen. See it in DOD all the time.

I do think the progressives are probably the most well intentioned of the congressional folks (not saying much when you look at the body as a whole) but corruption and palm greasing is still ever-present.

Just also wanted to add an asterisk that I don’t necessarily agree with the progressive platforms, just that when you take a guy like Bernie and compare him to a Gaetz or a Menéndez, he’s definitely the most well intentioned.

You actually see more E-bikes in amish country now lol

I like the Idea of train lanes if it is possible. I can see some problems with that, but it is a cool sounding concept.

As for battery banks, I don't know. I get being able to get a new propane tank and turn in the empty, but batteries for cars? I don't think those batteries change out all that easily...that doesn't mean that someday they couldn't be...but how many lithium batteries would be needed to do that? Maybe double the number of cars on the road. Probably more since each "bank" would have to have a pretty large supply since you can't predict demand on a day to day/hour to hour basis. I think you would end up with lines like we just saw.

The only way for that to happen is for the cost of the vehicle to come down to a level the "average Joe" could afford. You have to have lots of people buying new cars in order to have a decent supply of decent used cars available. The range of a charge, in any weather condition has to be at least 250-300 miles. You also need charging to take minutes rather than hours and have that charging readily available. I mean like everywhere. You would have to flip the availability of charging stations with gas stations. People seeking gasoline would need to seek out available filling stations.

I am sure it could happen, but not by 2030 or whatever goofy timeline is being proposed. Maybe 2050, and that is probably pushing it a bit. From the time cars where invented and available, it was probably 30-40 years before you stopped seeing horse drawn wagons on the streets.

Also, we might reduce carbon emissions, but used lithium batteries aren't exactly something that has zero consequences when disposed of....they have to go somewhere. What impact would that create? We could go from pumping oil to mining more lithium. Mining has environmental impact as well. It's not like a crop one can grow as needed.

Battery exchange isn't a new idea at all. There was a time where Tesla did that.. They could take a Model S battery out and replace it within 20 minutes. Not sure of the cost of that. Also, I don't think they do that anymore. Sounds like it didn't work out well.

If memory serves me correctly, the problem now is the location of the battery around the rear axle and the fact that it is heavy as heck, and not really modular. Who knows how that could change.

One big picture change that could be nice is enabling some type of infrastructure into the road way, or a certain lane of the road way that would allow for car charging while in transit. Your car is getting low on battery, so you shift over to the "slow lane" to charge the car for a bit and then you can be off to the races again. That could be a game changer. Probably would happen in some place like Japan or Germany first.

Battery swap out is happening now.

$149 to $219eu ($162 to $238 usd) per month gives you two battery swaps!

Deal me in!!


BTW, they're bragging about 500 battery swap stations in China -- where there are 107,000 gas stations -- just a little perspective. Sorry, that's not going to do much to alleviate "range anxiety".

That is an issue we hear about quite a bit. I do think it may be wise to look for the answers which are out there before declaring it a problem. These batteries have a wealth of valuable elements which are recycled.

Everything You Need to Know about EV Battery Disposal

This is what happens when your electric car's battery pack reaches the end of its life.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car-battery-recycling/


I think this is something that should be of concern. There are ways of extracting lithium that are environmentally friendly. There are companies which use such methods. But that doesn't change the fact that greed conquers all. So unless lithium mining is regulated in such a manner that requires environmentally friendly mining techniques I'm sure the cheapest, most productive manner of mining lithium no matter the consequences will be the flavor of the day. And we know how evil most people think any regulations are so even getting something like that passed in the first place would be an uphill battle. Then there's also the fact we can't dictate the mining process in other countries. So yeah, it is something to consider.

But here is how it can be done if companies would do it and some companies are.....

Sustainable Lithium Extraction: How is Lithium Mined and Processed

https://sustainablereview.com/sustainable-lithium-extraction-how-is-lithium-mined-and-processed/

So it "can" be done. But as a race humans don't seem to consider the best way of doing things but the most profitable.

baby steps bro.

https://amp.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article284306808.html

Until technology improves, I wont be buying one.

Batteries won’t freeze after global warming really sets in.

A few more years and all new vehickles will be electric.

I can understand people hesitating on EVs. I do think the main box you have to check as a potential EV owner is having charging available at your place of residence. 99% of my driving is to/from work and once a week to play hockey. If I've got a plug waiting for me in my garage each day, my range could be 100 miles and I'd probably be fine (maybe an exaggeration, but you get what I'm saying).

That small percentage (when the family takes a trip up to Cleveland), we 're probably going to be taking my wife's family truckster anyway.

An EV makes all kind of sense to be my next car purchase, but that's because I have a couple of those boxes checked. I wouldn't even consider an EV right now if I had to rely on charger networks regularly.

You described my situation exactly. Hey, let me know if you ever need a 50 amp in the garage. I know a good electrician

Here’s a cool idea. Could probably run on a few deep cycle 12v batteries to get to and from the Highway. You wouldn’t need a big heavy bank of lithium batteries.



https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/mach/f...ging-electric-cars-thing-past-ncna766456

That is a gret idea, except for the cost issue.

I read an article about this a while back and I amn going by memory, so don't quote me on this, but if I remember correctly, Finland has already implemented this in some areas. THe problem is that it costs around one million dollars per mile to build - again if I am remembering correctly

The cost would need to come from the all the ev owners and large transportation companies using them. Probably start off as tolls then move to a subscription model pay method. IDK it is costly.

I did a google search. Looks like it is actually Swedan not Finland. And the road they have is a 2 km trial road.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/...trified-road-for-evs-to-charge-while-dri


Could not confirm cost to build

Pretty cool. Wonder what happens when a dear or critter or human walks on it.

Exactly, you're going to pay while you use it. In other words, it pays for itself. Even at a million $ per mile (which would decrease dramatically as time goes on) it would be a no brainer. Tech like this gets me excited for the future.

Hydrogen is he way to go.

It would be far easier to develop rupture proof vessels. OK...maybe nothing is rupture proof, but we could come pretty are close.

j/c

I think as the thread has gone on we can see that this is technology in the making. It's not quite a finished product. But that technology is moving along quickly. There is 7.5 billion built into the infrastructure bill to increase charging stations across the country. That will certainly help overcome at least one obstacle. I can understand why people at this stage wouldn't want to purchase an EV for their main mode of transportation. It doesn't seem like the most sensible choice for long trips. I'm not so sure I understand why they wouldn't strongly consider one for a second car that's used for local driving. But as with most things as time goes on the technology will get better.

I can see some cities banning the burning of fossil fuels inside city limits in 10-20 years.

I don't doubt that. But I think what we'll find is it will be in the most liberal cities in the country. And the impact will result in less tourism and people moving away. We have poor people that can barely make ends meet that need to drive. They won't be buying EV's for a very long time. Hurting the very people you claim you wish to help isn't attractive. Sometimes such mandates only serve to shoot yourself in the foot.

Would you visit a city that prohibited you from driving your own car there? I certainly wouldn't.

Rave 4 110V plug in hybrid owner here.. Good pick up between the electric motors and engine. I think it is great. My wife can go to work and back without any use of gas. We have solar, so we charge as well.

If we go for a longer trip, the transition is seamless. But there is no battery anxiety. We charge overnight, when the electrical rates are low. Sell the electric to the grid during the day when the rates are higher.

A lot depends on your personal situation and driving habits.

I’m imagine inner city vehicles will be cheaper, lighter, smaller, compared to todays Tesla’s and other EV’s. I could see visiting NYC and parking my smog creator in Jersey and renting a inner city EV to go into the city. I’d be good with that.

There is also that old school technology called the train or subway for that.

True but we just love traffic jams, and driving around looking for an open parking space.

If you were forced to move because you were poor and couldn't afford an EV you may well vote for different people. Using NYC or LA as examples may be the best case scenario. But you would still be displacing a lot of your own voters and even more so in other cities with overall poorer populations.

Never, ever, ever. And there would never be a need.

We'll reach a point where ICE will be more costly, harder to maintain and repair and fuel will be $12 per gallon. That will be time and market creating the same effect. That time frame is more like 30-50 years.

People need to get past this "zero" b.s. There is no zero, never will be.

And don't get me wrong, not slamming you, because we all know there will be cities dumb enough to propose such things. At the end of the day -- they're part of the problem.

Never say never. Lol

I just did. Archive the statement for your grandkids, I'll do the same for mine. I'm sure they'll all be Browns fans on DT... waiting for a trophy... long after we have flying cars.

I have grandkids in Brooklyn, and in SF. They’re all for zero emissions in their cities. And sorry to say not Browns fans.

Worst idea ever.... Lets see do they work if they are covered in a foot of snow?

We can't keep our roads from having pot holes the size of sinkholes in Ohio now. Let alone the cost of maintaining millions of miles of this.

You’re right Ohio is run by a bunch of goper idiots who can’t even afford to maintain their sidewalks let alone their roads. Probably because they spent all those tax dollars on litigating law suits over abortion rights.

So, we actually need the global warming to keep the roads clear. That's why we need to take our time with this!

I'm not going to say you're wrong here. I have no way of knowing that. But one thing I can say emphatically is that you'll never achieve anything if you don't set a goal. You'll also never achieve anything when you say "you can't". Because I remember a time when people used your train of thought and were mistaken.

This is from Jan. 12th 1962. People said he was crazy. People said it was impossible. People said it could never be done. And yet it was.....

"We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too"

I witnessed that speech come true. After that I've found it very hard to use your logic on what can and can not come true and the idea of "never will be" hasn't seemed to apply. If everyone believed that the advancements we've seen "never will be" people would have never accomplished anything.

Yep that’s the way it’s going to work. Global warming before frozen batteries.

I was laying in bed last summer lamenting how much I was spending on gas (in Nevada gas prices are second only to California), and as I tend to do in life, I get on a train of thought and don't stop until I've pulled the trigger so to speak. I am a car guy. Love the physical act of driving. Anything that has wheels and a steering wheel, handlebars, whatever really...cars, trucks, motorcycles (two and three wheel), pretty much anything. I've owned it all.

I never considered buying an electric car before that night. I'm not an environmentalist. I'm not trying to save the planet. But as a I sat there in bed, with the wheels turning in my head, I decided I would go and test drive a Tesla. In southern California and southern Nevada, owning a Tesla is like joining a cult. Seems like every other car on the road is a Tesla. Didn't care for that aspect of it, but was also tired of paying $4.89/gallon of gas.

So I go and test drive one and am blown away. Power and tech. Test drove it on a Saturday, ordered it on a Monday. Had a wall charger installed at my house.

I traded in a BMW M3. I have zero regrets. Do not miss the ICE car (as the EV crowd says) at all. I absolutely despise going to the gas station and don't have to do that anymore. I am saving between $100 and $200/month on gas. The driving experience is absolutely phenomenal. It will blow away just about any car off the line. I'm not sure I will ever purchase another gas car. I bought a model Y. My wife now wants a model X. She didn't care about the car at all until I brought it home and she drove it. Now she is always looking for reasons to drive it.

Granted, I do not live in a cold weather climate. I have read recently that the electric car companies have done a terrible job of educating drivers on how to navigate the cold weather in an EV...how to prepare the car to be driven and charged. I think that's a big part of the reports coming out now. And let's be honest...there are some publications that are anti-EV and that's all you're going to hear.

We have not taken it on a long trip yet. But for daily driving, you will NEVER, NEVER run out of charge. Range anxiety is unwarranted. Drive all day, plug it in at night. And fears over battery life and replacing batteries is also unwarranted. Tesla batteries come with 8 year/96,000 mile warranties. Beyond that if you had to replace a battery, it's not much different than replacing an engine or transmission and should continue to get more cost feasible over time.

Not trying to sell anyone on them. Just trying to provide a first hand experience. I love my EV. I don't know anyone who owns one that doesn't feel the same.

This is not true. Many of the traditional car companies have started backing off of EVs. They just haven't taken to the general public like people thought they would.

Buy some Tesla stock now. They will still be going strong.

Or sending out welfare payments.

My point is why turn this in to your typical crapfest? I don't think ones political persuasion has anything to do with the merits, or lack of concerning electric cars.

You’re right…..It was a ridiculous post to ridiculous comment.

I agree.

However, the space program had the budget to do that. The average Joe doesn't have the budget to buy electric.
I am not saying it can't happen. I am just saying it can't happen by 2030 which seems to be the stated goal. We aren't talking 15 rockets, we are talking tens of millions of cars that currently have limited use and are more expensive than gasoline cars....the average person car.

Just a general question to all. How many in here who advocate for electric cars actually own an electric car? I will even lower the standard and say a hybrid car. Are we walking the walk here, or are we just talking the talk?

I bought a hybrid last March. A Honda Accord. It wasn't very cheap. I had to write a check for just over $32,000 to drive it off the lot. It's a nice sized car. Not luxury by any means, but it has all the stuff and offers enough room to drive more that 50 miles without cramping. It seemed like the best deal that offered comfort and a good milage rating. When I drive down to Florida, I get around 44-46 MPG. Home to Tennessee, around 43...I figure that Florida to Tennesse is more of an uphill drive. Heading to Cleveland, it is pretty much the same, but a little closer...Cleveland isn't at sea level so I don't get as much of a downhill boost.

I’m a big proponent of EV’s. I also realize we aren’t there yet. Hybrids are the way now. I own a 5.7 liter Toyota Tundra and a Scion XD. I work, tow, and plow with the Tundra and daily drive the Scion. Both paid off. The Scion avg 35mpg. The Tundra avg 17mpg. Can’t replace my work truck with an ev at this time. Hopefully soon with a hybrid. The Scion sips fuel, and I’ll replace with an EV when I feel it’s time.

OK....no, but that's cool.

You work with your truck. That's cool. You can't plow snow with some 140 HP EV that burns battery at a high rate in the cold. You deserve and expect to blow some heat while you are out to clear customers driveways and business parking lots.

You help keep America working. Thank-you.

It wasn't a ridiculous comment though. GM brought up the point of "will this work all the time and what will the cost of maintenance be". You do deserve a pass (sort of, a tiny one) because he was a big s/a about it.

We have a bad habit (especially where "green" is concerned) of ignoring all ancillary arguments, acting like the tech leaves no other scars on the earth, and snubbing our nose to the fact that every new 'great idea' has its own set of pitfalls. I'm sure repairing 'electric roads' will be much harder and much, much more costly. And will these roads work when it's 10 below?

Both 05 and Rish own EV's. Both have given them glowing revues in this very thread. The next vehicle I purchase will most lie be an EV based on their reviews. Like yourself I wanted first had accounts. Those were provided in this thread.

Yeah, I would concur. I love my Model Y, which of course is not perfect and has areas where it can improve, for sure. I think one of Tesla's biggest problems is they don't have the manufacturing prowess and experience that the Big 3 have, or the foreign cars have, that have been around forever, which creates hiccups, but I expect them to get there. Musk is also overselling the self-drive for what it is. It's better than the naysayers assert, but not as good as Musk asserts, go figure. It is improving with each download.

That being said, it's a phenomenal car for every-day commuting. Sentry mode has been a game changer, along with summoning, and a lot of the tech. A lot of people have complained about the number of "recalls" but recalls with a Tesla are very different than what most people are used to with gas cars. Recalls in these cases are almost always a software update that happens overnight without the driver even noticing. The car is basically a smartphone with wheels and a cabin. It's very comfortable, too.

I would hope at some point - perhaps after my lifetime, that we can invest in infrastructure that allows for real-time charging during a commute. Could drive to Florida from Cincy without even stopping - although that may cause a whole other industry to collapse.

That's the thing about technology, it's always advancing. At first it was the inability to recycle the batteries. That has been addressed. It was dirty mining. Much of that has been addressed. Mileage per charge continues to increase. I said earlier in the thread, which goes along with your comment, that as of now the solution isn't perfect.

Peen brought up the cost of EV's. Even those prices are dropping with many models selling for under 30k now. Of course as with anything you get what you pay for so they are low end models but it's a step in the right direction.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024...n-to-hit-the-brakes-on-epa-proposal.html

Electric cars- everyone has an opinion- I have several- observation- Norway operators had few problems recharging their EVs- keys, preheat battery and don't let charge run down to far----Chicago idiots failed to adhere to requirements- ie - operator error. I hate the power and torque of the electric cars- operator errors causing crashes due to too much speed and quickly. Un-American idea- governors to control performance. All the "advancements" each company is claiming on battery recharging times, charge length, etc., etc., sure seems EVs are here to stay.

Plus- talks with tractor trailer drivers ALL love the quiet and performance of EV trucks--environmentally, trucks should be supplemented by government , JMHO.

REpTARDS don’t think anything through. They like unintended consequences because it gives them a reason to lose and blame dems. It doesn’t matter what the hell you do for GOPers, they’ll find a bone to pick somewhere. Biden could pump sunshine and wish granting unicorns into their homes and they would complain about the light, the heat, the horns, and the droppings. You could give Trump a hundred billion and he would be upset it wasn’t two hundred billion. There is no satisfying them because all they understand now is finding the grievance.

The party of “hell no” developed by “yes we can”

why don't electric cars have solar panel roofs, trunks, and hoods?

Because it's new... and you need Dawgs like me to bring you up to speed.
It's already happening. Baby steps, but its no joke.



Thin-Film Solar Car Cover Can Recharge Your Electric Car While It’s Parked

A French company has developed a thin-film solar cell that uses semi conductor compounds based on organic polymers printed on flexible films. The practical upshot of this is that it can be mounted on curved surfaces, something traditional solar panels cannot do.

Consequently, they have created a retractable car cover incorporating ultra-thin photovoltaic cells that can be unrolled and rolled back thousands of times with no damage or loss in performance that can be used to partly recharge a car’s battery. According to Nantes-based Armor, the new solar cell technology, called ASCA, weighs only about 450 grams per square meter, about six times that of a similar sized piece of paper.

“We worked with two other French companies – ACPV, which was the sponsor of the project and Gazelle Tech, which is a startup that developed an electric car made out composite – to develop a solar car cover to produce energy when the car is parked,” Moïra Asses, marketing and business development manager at Armor, told Forbes.


The first prototype was unveiled at the Mondial Paris Motor Show in April of this year. The thin-film solar panels cover an area of 4 square meters and the cover itself is integrated into the body of the car, so at the flick of a switch it can be rolled out, retracted and safely stored.

The cells provide supplementary power to the vehicle’s battery and increase its range up to 15 kilometers (9.3 miles) a day based on the car being exposed to the sun for eight hours. The company has set a target of gaining 30 miles of range (48 km) per day within 3 years

“The goal was to increase the battery life and therefore increase the distance the car could travel using solar energy. For the first prototype, we plan to add 8,000 kilometers to the car during one year and we expect to reach a 11,000 kilometers by 2023,” Asses said.

n the UK, electric vehicles are now on average £107 cheaper a year to own than petrol cars, an analysis of lifetime running costs recently revealed, based on purchase price and ownership costs over 14 years. And a 2018 study from the University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute found that electric vehicles cost less than half as much to operate as gas-powered cars.

Armor is currently working in connection with three international car manufacturers to develop the project. The idea has always been about integrating the cover with the vehicle, since this eliminates potential issues with compatibility, different connections and even theft.

“The idea was to have something automatic, so it's easy as you close your car with your key, you can press simply a button and deploy this protection and avoid having to do it manually every time you park,” Asses said.

Fitting solar panels to an electric car is not a new idea, but Armor says it is the first to fit them to a cover for a car rather than to the car itself. However, its ASCA thin-film products can be incorporated directly into the body of a car as well.

In areas that receive a lot of sun, from California to Qatar, this could significantly benefit the electric vehicle market, especially if the cover was designed to help keep the car cool as as added bonus.

Asses believes the concept could be available as an additional feature to electric vehicles in the future, but as the efficiency of photovoltaic technology constantly improves, solar panel arrays that could simply be rolled out might be able to power water pumps, provide electricity to encampments or even be used on satellites or space craft.





https://www.forbes.com/sites/scotts...ic-car-while-its-parked/?sh=1687881b6227

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating against electric. I got in to this over the question of road taxes.

Gasoline isn't what deteriorates roads and bridges. Vehicles are what do that. The road doesn't care if it is a gasoline or electric vehicle. Every EV on the road is helping to deteriorate the roadways without contributing to their maintenance.

The impact may not be great at this point, but it will. As it stands the more people drive, the more in tax they are charged. Makes sense and it has worked. Unless we find a way to put a tax on the electricity used to power these vehicles we will probably have to simply institute a flat tax to something everybody pays, or will pay regardless of if they drive a vehicle or not.

Thanks Clem. I was going to answer SBD that it didn't make sense where we currently are when looking at the technology available and most likely the current cost levels. Also weight that against the fact that the amount of charge the car would receive from that would be miniscule in comparison. For instance, I charge mine with a 50 amp plug out in the garage. I can't imagine any current solar technology that would fit on an EV getting anywhere close to that.

That is totally unfair to someone who does not drive. If you want to be more fair, it would be based on mileage and vehicle weight.

Make all roads toll roads. You pay for what you use

j/c...

Keep the gas tax and raise it in direct proportion to the percentage of electric vehicles on the road. In other words, by the time time we have 50% electric vehicles, taxes on gas will have risen 100% (doubled). Seems to me you wouldn't lose a penny.


My point (and Rish's point in the other thread) is, there should be nothing to the page of arguments when the consumer is weighing the option to 'go electric'.

Silly registration fees that seem to punish the buyer (the person we need most in this 'revolution') are basically penny-wise and dollar stupid.


Think about it... Our government has been offering a $7500 tax credit for EVs

They're already giving away 28.5 years worth of 'gas tax' at the point of sale.


Change the tax credit to $5000 and give them a $200 gift card at the BMV every year they register the vehicle.

I like that.

When Cars first came around the government didn't do everything to push car sales and discourage horse sales. Just how many companies quit making horses back then? Yep not a single one. Now go try to buy a new america CAR than runs on gas. What choices are there? You want people to have a choice don't you? or are you fine with the government pushing yet another thing down our throat?

J/C The gas tax will go away when autos go zero emission.

Uh, companies don't make horses. In 2009 the government had the Cash For Clunkers program to support getting rid of older less fuel efficient cars. This isn't some new precedent. And the demand for draft horses went down by 90% by 1920. So I'm pretty sure people stopped "making" near as many of them.


Maybe you should send your complaints to American auto makers. If you feel your choices are being restricted talk to the people restricting them.

j/c...

Although somewhat biased (less than I actually expected) towards Tesla, bottom line is they lead the field with the only real competition evolving in China.

A look under the hood of strategy with a TON of food for thought.

Ford just reported a massive loss on every electric vehicle it sold

New York
CNN
—
Ford’s electric vehicle unit reported that losses soared in the first quarter to $1.3 billion, or $132,000 for each of the 10,000 vehicles it sold in the first three months of the year, helping to drag down earnings for the company overall.

Ford, like most automakers, has announced plans to shift from traditional gas-powered vehicles to EVs in coming years. But it is the only traditional automaker to break out results of its retail EV sales. And the results it reported Wednesday show another sign of the profit pressures on the EV business at Ford and other automakers.

The EV unit, which Ford calls Model e, sold 10,000 vehicles in the quarter, down 20% from the number it sold a year earlier. And its revenue plunged 84% to about $100 million, which Ford attributed mostly to price cuts for EVs across the industry. That resulted in the $1.3 billion loss before interest and taxes (EBIT), and the massive per-vehicle loss in the Model e unit.

The losses go far beyond the cost of building and selling those 10,000 cars, according to Ford. Instead the losses include hundreds of millions being spent on research and development of the next generation of EVs for Ford. Those investments are years away from paying off.

And that means this is not the end of the losses in the unit - Ford said it expects Model e will have EBIT losses of $5 billion for the full year.

The company said it is its “intention” to be have EV pricing cover the actual costs of building each EV, rather than covering all the research and development costs, within the next 12 months. But a price war among EVs for about a year and a half has made even that measure of profitability very difficult said Ford CFO John Lawler. He said while Ford has removed about $5,000 in cost on each Mustang Mach-E, “revenue is dropping faster than we can take out the cost.”

In 2023, Ford Model e reported a full-year EBIT loss of $4.7 billion on sales of 116,000 EVs, or an average of $40,525 per vehicle, just more than a third of the first quarter loss.

Model e doesn’t handle all of the company’s electric vehicle sales. Some are also sold in its Ford Pro unit, which handles fleet sales to businesses and government buyers. And Ford said it had strong demands for electric vehicle sales in that unit, including an order for 9,250 E-Transit vans from the US Postal Service, which are to be delivered through the end of this year, and an order for more than 1,000 of its F-150 Lightning pickups and Mustang Mach-E SUVs from Ecolab, a global sustainability company.

Despite the EV losses, Ford CEO Jim Farley said in a call with investors the company is making changes in its EV business, and that the company’s planned next generation of EVs will allow it to be profitable on that business in the near future.

Ford Pro, which primarily sells traditional internal combustion vehicles, was the primary profit driver for Ford in the quarter, posting EBIT of $3 billion, or more than double what it made a year ago, as revenue from the unit rose 36% to $18 billion. The number of vehicles sold by Ford Pro was up 21% to 409,000.

But Ford Blue, which handles sales of gasoline-powered cars to consumers, reported that sales fell 11% to 626,000, and revenue dropped 13% to $21 billion. That resulted in EBIT in those traditional sales falling by nearly two-thirds to $905 million.

Together Ford Blue and Ford Pro produced roughly the same level of profits as a year earlier, but the increased losses at the Model e unit meant that Ford’s overall net income fell 20% to $1.3 billion, while its adjusted earnings per share fell to 49 cents, down 21% from a year earlier, but slightly better than analyst forecasts of 44 cents a share.

Ford rival General Motors reported earlier this week that it remains on track to have its North American EV business turn profitable in the second half of this year, while Stellantis, which makes cars and trucks in North America under the Jeep, Ram, Dodge and Chrysler brands, said its European EV business was already profitable last year.

On Tuesday Tesla, the world’s largest EV maker, reported that its adjusted earnings plunged 48% in the first quarter as revenue fell 9%, after it reported the first year-over-year drop in sales since the pandemic.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/business/ford-earnings-ev-losses/index.html

Hyundai is doing well, though.

I wish I had an explanation as to why Tesla is hurting right now. I honestly don't know. Not all EV manufacturers are doom-and-gloom, though. Hyundai/Genesis have been killing it (they are a little earlier in their EV journey).

I'm not saying your overall point (if I understand it correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong) is wrong, I just think there's a little more nuance to it. EV's are being pushed on us hard right now. As much as I usually hate govt telling me what to do, I do understand why we want to move away from consuming gas the way we are.

TLDR, there aren't enough good options out there just yet. I was looking at a car purchase, and the only real options that appealed to me were the Tesla Model Y, Hyundai Ioniq, and Genesis GV70. GV70 was out of my price range, even if I went used. Tesla was the front-runner, but the interior turned me off. Ioniq 5 was good but trunk/back wasn't quite the size I was looking for.

Ford is getting killed right now because their Mach-e is very meh. I honestly don't know why someone would buy that over either a Tesla Model Y or the Hyundai.

And that's kinda my point. I think there needs to be a little more time to let the bigger automakers get their act together. Tesla is doing a superb job of driving prices down (look at what Hyundai has been doing in response). Both are responding positively to the tumultuous roll-out of the tax rebate and both are starting to cross the threshold to providing an affordable EV that the masses can buy (eg. not a clown car).

For me, an EV would've made a ton of sense (I would have charging set up at home and wouldn't need to rely on public chargers, I have a longer but consistent commute/mileage, family already has a gas car that we would use for road trips regardless). I didn't pull the trigger but I think if I could've waited maybe another year I would have.

And I think what you pointed out is crucial. It's pretty much the same in every sector of the market. If you put out a crappy product you pay the price. Those who put out a better product reap the rewards.

I was mostly just posting the article hoping for a solid post like yours lol. Not really trying to make a point with it.

Now that the two of you have responded, there's room for some discussion.

First -- sales are way below expectations across the board -- so while the points of a quality/desirable product hold true, they're not really answering the decline in consumer demand. This amid prices being slashed across the industry, in some cases dramatically. The Hyundai Ioniq, for example, is being leased at an unheard of rate of $239 per month. I'm not saying that's bad, just peeling back layers.

I think the big boys made some badly (maybe greedy?) calculations of continued exponential growth and invested too much for organic growth... at least too much as far as protecting the bottom line goes. I just wonder how that translates into begging the government for more tax breaks. I, as a taxpayer, an not much interested in funding their greed. That's just one angle.

This is most certainly true. The demand hasn't increased at the projected rate.


This however, while I'm not sure of your intent certainly seems inaccurate at best. Consumer demand has not declined. It actually increased in 2023. As you mentioned the increase in the demand has not met expectations, however the U.S. set a record in EV sales in 2023....

New vehicle sales rise in 2023, EV retail numbers set record

https://wdet.org/2023/12/26/new-vehicle-sales-rise-in-2023-ev-retail-numbers-set-record/


I think greed is the overwhelming factor with all corporations. At least one could describe it that way if they so choose to. Profit is the driving force. The bottom line is king. Some describe that as the way capitalism is supposed to work and some call it greed. Then some call it everything between the two.

It seems to me that no matter whether they were trying to produce EV's or internal combustion vehicles, the objective, as always seems to be the case, is predicting the market flow and what the demand will be from its consumers. And I certainly agree they missed the mark on that. And yes, I don't doubt they will be begging the government for tax credits to help make up for their mistake.

As with all newer technology I think this is little more than a fly in the ointment. As the technology advances the range in mileage on these vehicles will increase. We're already seeing that trend now. As more quick charging stations are made available it will be easy and more convenient to recharge these vehicles. I look for charging times to decrease as well. As we've seen with home computers, 4k TV's and every other technological advances, as time goes on the cost of production comes down. I don't think this will be any different. With that being said I also look for prices of EV's to line up with gas powered cars in short order.

For now I agree they've put themselves in a bind. The technology needs to improve before the demand will increase to the level they thought it would. And then they have to overcome those people who are simply stomping their feet and yelling who claim they'll never buy an EV no matter what.

Good post. I was in a bit of a hurry and my wording wasn't as it should been. YES, demand has increased. I expect it to continue to increase. It's these corps banking on continued exponential growth that is the problem. I just want it to be their problem and not ours.

There are gonna be bumps in the road, pun intended. It sometimes bothers me that I'm JAG and it seems like I have more common sense than the powers-that-be. Another unexpected hurdle (we're not there yet, but nobody really talks about it), is how drastically this will change vehicle flow on the secondary market. Now that we have this HUGE spike in sales, we're 4-5 years from a glut of vehicles on the market that need new batteries. Fields of dead Everready Bunnies lol. Yes, I'm being dramatic, but let's be honest here... I'll compare cost of replacement... would you buy a vehicle today for any price if you were told the engine and tranny would be dead within two years? That's about the equivalent price of a new battery.

Besides that, there are the issues of mining, disposal, etc... These things are issues when there is organic growth, they can become catastrophes when things are accelerated way beyond normal growth. Alas, I'm sure these will seem like small ripples in the pond twenty-five years from now. I just get tired of our politicians, corp leaders, ignoring the obvious and turning to the taxpayer with a blank look on their faces when things go awry.

All that gibberish aside, this is an exciting time during a complete paradigm shift that is for the good. I'm sure tech will outpace dumb decisions and we'll all be better off in the end.

Speaking as a Tesla owner, I think one of my qualms with Tesla is that the stock price, product and business model all seem to reflect Musk's very own personal dichotomy. Everything about Tesla is really great, or it sucks. Not much in between.

I have the Y and it's a cool car. Don't get me wrong. It's fast. Drives great and it's comfortable.

Musk, for the longest time has been preaching self drive and the advances. His one great marketing advantage over a lot of the other EVs and automobile companies. But, here we all are, waiting over and over again for him to be able to cash the checks his mouth keeps writing. The interior is very innovative, but some of the parts seem really cheap when you look at them closely, like seat belt buckles. The way the AC works is cool, but it also doesn't function very well in a dual zone.

The headlines surrounding Tesla also seem to follow suit, and I think that can affect consumers. It's either "Another huge advantage in self-drive!" or "The cybertruck can be used as a boat!" vs "Tesla on self-drive kills entire small town!" or "When asked about whether cybertruck can be used as a boat, Tesla engineer says Musk is FOS!"

The pendulum swings wide, both ways, with Tesla.

From my understanding those batteries last somewhere between 6-10 years with 8 years being the average. And while I know you save on other maintenance that is required with fossil fuel vehicles, I would have to factor in those savings along with the savings on fuel cost in order to do a breakdown of the actual cost between the two over that period of time. It's odd that people such as ourselves think about this while they seemingly don't. But then ulike the government we can't simply print money whenever we choose to. lol

Those batteries are now being recycled and more will be as time goes on so I'm not seeing that as some catastrophic issue some have been trying to make it out to be. This article explains the average battery life, other uses for the batteries after it loses a certain percentage of its power and how they will be recycled.....

What happens to old electric car batteries?

https://www.nationalgrid.com/storie.../what-happens-old-electric-car-batteries

I think prices, overall, were outrageous to begin with... and what I think you're seeing is consumers not wanting to pay this sorta 2x early adopter fee. Greed prolly isn't a bad describer... I think the big companies saw that Tesla was going to eat their lunch and started scrambling. We're seeing the effects of that. Give it some more time. Those big clunky companies will iterate and pivot and eventually get there. I think using Ford is a bad example, as their first offering is really unimpressive. Hyundai had to cut prices, but my understanding is they're doing so because the tax rebate switchup kinda screwed them over and they're trying to stay in the game. IMO, Hyundai is offering the best non-Tesla EVs right now.

Hyundai has really impressed me. With the way they've priced to stay competitive without the benefit of the full tax rebate, to how they're transitioning their assembly to the US (there are articles on their plant in MS) is positive to hear coming from a major auto company. And the cars they're putting out don't suck.

It was a crazy day at work and I really wanted to do this convo justice but I think I just ended up posting a disjointed rebuttal. I just made a car purchase. I ended up not purchasing an EV, but am still sold on the idea (if that makes any sense). I can't help but want to argue for EVs, as I like the idea of consuming less gas from an economic perspective. I feel like the push for green energy is a something worth fighting for (from several perspectives), and that the various industries (EV, solar, etc) just need a little more oomph (from the bottom instead of just the top).

I feel the same way about this as I do watching people in Chicago this past winter who couldn't drive their Teslas because the superchargers froze.... there will be bumps in the road. It sucks, but we'll figure it out.

Those batteries will need to be replaced, but as a now-former BMW owner I don't feel like the overall impact will be that bad. The money saved from not having to change oil, service transmissions, etc should offset the big battery cost that's waiting. Consumers just have to get smart about it.
They're also working on better battery chemistry to alleviate the environmental and reliability concerns. I'm positive on the future of EVs.

Like most innovations, things take time to flesh out. I mean, this is a stupid example, but "Buggy Whips"! What if someone said, gees, if we make a gas powered cars, it will destroy the Buggy Whip industry... (like I said, dumb example)

Over time, we can and always seem to find solutions to what technology brings. I don't know what the answer to that is today, but I'm confident that we will eventually find it.

I agree with peen, and to add the real problem is our infrastructure. As the more electricity we use overall the more demand we put on the grid. And burning fossil fuel to generate electricity isn’t going away for some time to come. It’s going to take a revenue source to build all the infrastructure to support the demand.

On that note, at least one state doing things right...


America's Largest Nuclear Plant

A new reactor unit at Georgia’s Vogtle nuclear power plant went into commercial operation yesterday, capping a 15-year expansion that makes the site the single biggest producer of carbon-free energy in the country.

The reactor, known as Unit 4, comes online less than a year after the similarly built Unit 3 was flipped on—together they were the first nuclear reactors constructed from scratch in the US in more than 30 years. The plant is expected to produce 30 million megawatt-hours of power annually, or roughly 23% of Georgia's total power consumption (though it will also service customers in Florida and Alabama).

The project was expected to begin producing power in 2016, but experienced significant delays and unexpected costs, driving the final price tag from $14B to $35B. Customer rates were raised a total of 10% to help cover financing.

A single half-inch uranium pellet produces roughly the same amount of energy as 17,000 cubic feet of natural gas or 1 ton of coal. See how commercial nuclear reactors work here.


(From 1440 Daily Digest... Facts. Without motives. In 1 daily email news briefing: https://lp.join1440.com/)

EV drivers in 36 states pay a surplus of fees each year

https://www.atlasevhub.com/data_story/ev-drivers-in-36-states-pay-a-surplus-of-fees-each-year/

It's almost as if the problems people keep talking about are being addressed long before people will stop talking about them.

I truly don't understand how taxing EV drivers out the azz solves any problems?

Fusion cars. That's what we need.

They don't pay anything towards the infrastructure by avoiding the gas tax.

This seems to be like riding a merry go round. On one hand people complain that EV's avoid paying no gas tax undermines the ability to maintain the roads and that the more EV's there are on the road the worse that problem becomes. Then when a method is found to make up for that tax money people complain about it. All that's being done here is they have found a way to have EV drivers make up for the tax money they are no longer paying in gas taxes. You use the roads? You contribute to their upkeep and maintenance.

It's not so much an additional tax as it is replacing one tax with another.

Where do you think the loss of tax revenue to maintain our roads will come from if EV's don't pay their share while avoiding the gas tax?

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is creating a savings account, not in their head or at their bank, to offset the price of a new battery. Nobody is shrugging off the cost thinking "I saved money on oil". I understand the theory and understand that you'll save on gas and other things (although the only trans I've ever had serviced was on a '73 AMC Javelin - nearly 50 years later), but things you don't save on are major purchases and major strains on today's families that are already maxed out as a way of life. EVs literally burn through tires and your battery is a ticking time bomb after 5 years.


Edit to add:

I believe the latest estimates are 8-12 years, not 5. As with most things, YMMV (especially considering driving/charging habits), just like with critical portions of combustion engines.

People don't do a lot of things they should be doing... until they figure out the hard way that it is needed. Daytime TV has those routine maintenance insurance ads running, so perhaps a less scammy approach is the way (you know... if adults are absolutely unable to be adults).

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying they die in five, I'm saying that's when they become "ticking time bombs"... owners will want to unload them at that point because value will start to drop significantly over the subsequent three years.

FWIW the warranty on my battery for my Model Y goes out 8 years.

Which drops to 3 years if it's cold, windy, rainy, or you get stuck in traffic, or use the air or radio

Federal law requires automakers to warranty EV and hybrid batteries for at least eight years or 100,000 miles. California requires a 10-year, 150,000-mile warranty

Just an update since this thread popped to the top.

Earlier I questioned how gasoline taxes would be collected since EV's also contribute to road damage.


I bought a hybrid just over a year ago. When I got my tag renewal notice the fee was over $100 I can't remember the exact amount. Maybe $15 more. In the past the renewal fee was $29. If my vehicle was a total EV, it would have been over $200.

Obviously, the Feds have some formula to get their taxes and so do the states. It's probably average based, and possibly car type based. It may not be fair if you drive under the average, but I don't know how else it can be done without being burdensome on the public or promote cheating.

So, when you have to get your tag sticker, you will be paying more. Seems reasonable to me.

Would you buy a Tesla that is six years old knowing the warranty expires in two years?

Haha no, I don't think I'll buy a Tesla the next time around anyhow, but I think the answer to your question is "It depends." Not trying to worm out of where you might be going with it, but I think the "depends" part boils down the price point at which I would purchase the vehicle.

Why would you buy a German car with 150k miles on the odometer? From experience, I can tell you an ICE car can easily wrack up a repair bill similar to battery repair cost. They just won't do it all in one go. I don't understand the hand-wringing over this point.

Every time the industry overcomes other obstacles they have to invent more.

I'm inventing a problem?? 🤣

Maybe more so trying to predict the future. Which is what we've been seeing all along. Complaints about the environmental effects of used up batteries. Those batteries are now being recycled. Range per charge which is continually increasing. Long charging times which have been addressed by quick charging stations. The list goes on and on of the objections concerning EV's that have and are becoming non-existent.

What we have seen in most every technological advance is that as the popularity and demand increases, more mass production ensues and the price decreases. From PC's to 4k TV and the list goes on. Neither of us have any idea what the cost of EV batteries will be in the future. If what we have seen in technological advances continue the trend, the price very well may be significantly less than it is now. We live in a time that technology advances so rapidly trying to predict technology years down the road has almost become a pipe dream. Maybe even a crack pipe dream.

When the warranty does not cover driving your car through a car wash that is not much of a warranty. Plus I was poking fun at all the trouble people are having with EV's.

I am. The government is the one pushing electric. They set the standards so high for gas mileage that the manufacturers have to go electric or start going with 2 and 3 cylinder engines. As I have said electric is the future, but it needs to be the peoples choice to buy them, not have the government shoving them down our throat, and they need to stop putting the cart before the horse.

Don't forget that electric cars go through tires a lot faster than gas cars, and four good tires cost a hell of a lot more than a few oil changes.

Exactly. I've already mentioned that. Pit says I'm "inventing problems".

I heard that before, but there are a handful of people here at work with various electric vehicles and they said the tire thing is overblown as long as you stay ahead of any alignment issues. One person said regular tire rotations are key but the other folks didn't.

Theoretically, the tire issue makes sense (super heavy car that makes tons of instant torque).

In full disclosure, that's a problem I have (staying on top of the rotations), but it's more on me than anything else. Without the routine scheduled maintenance with things like oil changes and whatnot, it's easier to let things like rotations and alignment slide, but that's on me, though.

I really need to get that done...

That had nothing to do with what we were discussing and you know it.

lmao. Neither did any of the following, but you used it to clarify the comment you made about "inventing problems".


Didn't you ^ just use every argument ever made about EVs as a rebuttal to my questioning your "creating problems" comment??

Can't have it both ways.

So you've decided that you can expand it to issues I never mentioned and were not discussed. Got it.

Did I ever post tires weren't an issue when you posted it? Yeah, I didn't think so.

I apologize. It just seemed like you used a blanket statement to explain that all my points were silly because all those problems would be solved.

You're right, attributing you to the tire thing was wrong on my part.

No, my only point was that many problems people had brought up in the past had already been addressed and that there's no way of knowing if the replacement of the batteries will be as costly years from now. As with most things demand resulting in mass production usually reduces costs over time. It may or may not work out that way but there's no real way of knowing that.

While it is possible they could reduce the weight of the batteries and vehicles that seems less likely they could do that to any major degree. So I think tire wear may be on ongoing issue. According to Oober the people he knows with EV's say the issue isn't as bad as people make it out to be. I have no way of knowing because I don't own an EV.

why would they go through tires faster?

I assume vehicle weight. I also heard the Ford Lightning pickup can’t use normal tires. Not sure about that either.

"With their heavy weight and quick acceleration, EVs tend to burn through tires about 20% faster than internal combustion vehicles do, according to AlixPartners. And the tires cost about 50% more."

Why EVs are causing a tire boom

If anyone cares… https://www.evuniverse.com/whats-the-difference-between-regular-tires-and-ev-tires/

See more expensive and don't last as long.

The weight should make the tires wear faster. But let's be clear about something. I'm not quite sure what "a lot faster" means. 20% faster?

Any way you slice it you are still going to get the majority of mileage out of a set of tires you would with any other vehicle. It's not as if you get nothing out of those tires. So in reality you're just buying tires 20 percent faster than you would otherwise. So that's not like saying four good tires cost you more than you saved on oil changes and fuel. Of course they do but you still got a lot of use out of those tires.

The sacrifices we all face. Environment vs Cost to protect it.

EVs are generally heavier than their equivalent internal combustion cars. More weight on the tires means more wear. Also, an electric engine can basically deliver torque instantly to the wheels. It's why a standard Tesla can out-sprint many "fast" gas cars.

One thing I left out earlier is that EV tires are specifically designed to handle all that torque (they are in many ways, "grippier"). Generally, more grippy tires will not last as long as less grippy.

Anecdotally, the handful of people where I work say these concerns are largely overblown so long as the driver is aware and stays on top of things like alignment and tire rotations. Also, don't do burnouts.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ticle-pollution-than-exhausts-tests-show

Tires are terrible for the environment.

Not EV tires, they're gluten free and made of fairy dust.

Back to your usual self I see.

I'll just call you Dr Frankenstein.

I knew reality wouldn't last with you. Once your back is up against the wall you revert back to posting nonsense.

My back is against the wall??

If you can't feel it that's an additional issue you have.

I bet I still have issues long after you run out of tissues. 😩

I don't have that much pity for you to require tissues.

LOL....I never rotate tires. I like getting in to a cycle where I buy 2 tires at a time.

As an owner of two electric vehicles, I recently just bought a second Tesla, I agree with this. It should be the people’s choice. I think this is part of the reason society in general is turning against EVs at the moment because people don’t want it dictated to them what to do. Let the products speak for themselves.

I know I’ve commented on this before but from an ownership experience I’m not sure I will ever buy another ICE car. I am a car guy. I am not an environmentalist. If you asked me where the environment ranked on why I bought electric cars it wasn’t a consideration. I bought them because after researching them and driving them I loved the driving experience, including all of the tech. Cars are my vice. Some people have drugs and alcohol. Some have gambling. Some like to spend all their money on travel. I love driving nice cars.

We have home charging and never have to go to a gas station or super charger. This combined with the driving experience and technology of a Tesla are second to none. I would strongly encourage people to keep an open mind if considering one, do the research, and do a test drive. A lot of people turning their noses up to electric have never driven one, don’t want the government to dictate to them what to buy, hate Elon, are shorting Tesla stock, or have unfounded fears about range anxiety. We moved off of two very nice ICE vehicles and we don’t miss them at all.

I think legitimate concerns over electric are how they perform in cold weather and road tripping. We are contemplating road tripping across the country this summer to Cleveland. We won’t run out of charge, the super charging infrastructure is immense, but do expect to stop more frequently and for longer. If all you ever do is drive around town and have home charging, range is a non issue.

I can’t speak to non Tesla electric but can confidently say the non Tesla electric are built on more traditional car concepts, interiors and exteriors, don’t have the same level of tech, don’t enjoy the same level of super charging infrastructure, and don’t have the same level of performance. They are not personally appealing to me, but I urge people to try them out and choose for themselves.

We just tried the full self driving for the first time and it blew me away. 20 miles from home, had to navigate merging onto two highways, a complex off ramp, and multiple city streets. Took us right to our driveway. I was blown away.

I bought my first eletric about 9 months ago. Just computed my gas savings the other day. About $1600. Enough for new tires.

Now hopefully Elon knows what he’s doing and doesn’t screw the company up….

The FSD is gotten better, but it’s a far cry from the timeline of where Elon said it would be and still has some kinks to it.

I will say it’s not as bad as the haters make it out to be, whatsoever. I would also mention that the “accidents” most people hear about are from people who jailbreak the system.

So far you still have to keep both hands on the wheel at all times or it’ll start “yelling” and disengage. The cabin camera also monitors you to make sure you’re paying attention to the road. I don’t mind the camera part since people should still be paying attention, but hands free needs to be the next step. Right now you’re pretty much sitting in drivers position letting the car turn the wheel for you.

You don’t have to keep your hands on the wheel. You just need to apply slight pressure when prompted. Sometimes that’s several minutes in between prompting.

You need to 1) pay attention and 2) apply slight pressure when prompted. The rest of the time you can be eating a sandwich with two hands.

It’s the same for auto steer.

I will also add that depending on how you have the cruise control programmed…I have mine programmed for 7 over the speed limit…it will pass people on the highway who aren’t doing that speed. Turn signal, pass, turn signal again, and back into the lane. All with no hands.

I was going to comment after your first post. Glad I waited. This literally freaked me out a couple months ago.

It wasn't the first time I saw someone eating with both hands in a Tesla, but I was in shock because he had just passed a car right before I passed him. Kind of gave me brain freeze for a moment.

It's nice to hear from people who actually have the experience of owning them. Most of what we hear is people who have never driven or own one complaining about them.

Exactly. Drives me nuts.

Fate, I will add that Tesla gave everyone free FSD for a month recently and that’s when I tried it. I did not subscribe after the trial ended and it is not the reason I enjoy the car. However, the tech is really cool and only going to improve. I was actually blown away by how good it was, which was the whole point on why it was given away for free for the trial. They had recently made a ton of improvements and wanted people to subscribe.

That’s actually not the letter of the law. You’re supposed to keep your hands on the wheel and apply slight “turning pressure” when prompted basically as an “audit” that your hands are on the wheel.

You’re supposed to keep both hands on the wheel and attentive to take over at any time.

Drives me nuts that anyone who raises any counter-points is "complaining", or is against them, or is against "saving the environment", or is "just railing". I don't think you need to own one to discuss facts about them, whether that's battery lifespan or how fast you burn tires. I know it sounds counterintuitive but many times the opposite is true... If stats show that they burn tires twice as fast, across the experience of a million EVs, then how would one person's singular experience even matter? j/s And not picking on you Rish, you just gave me the perfect jump point.

EVs are great, can't wait to own one, can't wait til most of the planet does, however, I won't be here to see that and probably shouldn't be. This pie-in-the-sky "all electric by 2035" or such dumb slogans are some of the dumbest, if not careless statements I've heard in my lifetime. There are at least ten good reasons why this should be a 50 year proposition. Talking about them doesn't mean one has some sadistic fantasy of the Earth going up in a big ball of fire.

There. Disclaimer #38 of how I really like EVs but don't think we should all be driving them by next Tuesday.

I bought the whole thing with the purchase of the car. It has definitely improved. Am I “blown away”? No. But perhaps it a because I’m jaded having had it now for 2.5 years.

That being said, it’s pretty cool and has come forward a lot. Just had to jump over that big barrier. I think other companies are more well versed at manufacturing and after-market gains on parts and whatnot, mostly due to the fact they’ve been in the automotive market longer.

Musk has the tech element for sure. That’s always been his edge over the “oldies.” He has to keep pushing that part further though. I worry his purchase of Twitter is dragging him down somewhat on that front. Now that TSLA has taken a hit, I hope it becomes more of a priority again for him.

In almost a year of ownership I have never done that. And you don’t have to either.

You can still be attentive without having your hands on the wheel and able to take over when needed.

I’m in over 2.5 years. I’m just telling you what the rules are, bro. Take it for what it’s worth.

My other buddy is in for 4+ years now. He does the 1 lb weight approach which really pushes the envelope.

If there’s an accident while in FSD, that cabin video footage could really come into play.

If people are concerned about range or tires, that’s reasonable to me. But I read a lot of comments about how it’s not a good product, and it couldn’t be further from the truth. And a lot of people make these comments who have never driven or experienced one.

Ultimately at the end of the day I think people should drive what they want and what makes them happy. I’m a car guy. I’ve owned dozens, all kinds…expensive, cheap, different transmissions, suvs, sedans…and over a year ago you wouldn’t have been able to convince me to consider or buy an electric. Thankfully gas prices out west begrudgingly led me to consider one, and now I don’t know if I would ever consider an ICE car again.

I also hate going to the gas station. The only way to get discounted gas (and discount is a relative term here) on the west coast is to go to Costco and those lines are typically 10+ cars deep. I didn’t realize how much I hated going to the gas station until I didn’t have to.

But the stats don't show that. And the way it's delivered by the detractors leaves it very open ended most of the time. They make an issue sound much worse than stats would indicate. And I suppose if you have an EV owner who has kept track of how much they saved on fuel verses the cost of tire wear, that would be far more relative than open ended statements that did not have a cost breakdown or even take that perspective into consideration.

But we do live in an era where first hand experience is often times rebuffed.

I've spent a fortune on gas over the past four years of living in two places. Thankfully, that's about over. Which finally puts me in a place where I can drive an EV. I love cars as well, but never purchase new cars and don't finance. I would love to drive a new Tesla but don't see myself writing a check for 70k in the foreseeable future.

I'm early in the process of seeing where pricing intersects with value and longevity. With EVs, there's a new factor -- the "ticking time bomb". I know people don't like me calling it that, but I've been buying and driving cars for over 35 years, this will be the first time I'm looking at a fairly solid expiration date. It's completely different than ICE. There are many things I can do to an ICE vehicle to get the most life out of it. Gave my 03 Vibe GT to my father-in-law a few years ago. Still runs like a ____ ape lol. 260,000 miles... tires, brakes, a new clutch at 200,000, and religious oil changes.

EV batteries? I guess there are a few "helpful tips" but nothing with solid evidence of drastically increasing shelf life. So, looking at the market, I have to consider where the price drops enough (age and mileage) to make it a worthwhile investment and then either face a huge expenditure (replacing battery) or a very large reduction in trade in value. It will probably be another year or two until there is enough inventory for me to find a sweet spot.

Quick questions. Looking at Teslas I see terms like: long range, mid range, standard range plus... is that directly related to the type of battery? Is battery size and capacity an option when buying new?

I will echo you on the gas station. It’s very nice having a 50 amp in the garage and coming out to a car that has a “full tank” every morning. That has been a huge boost to owning a Tesla.

If there are ever any men masochistic enough to want their AI sex doll to be exactly like their first wife, they should have you write the algorithm.

You have the range options. Oddly enough, I’m not sure how that correlates to size but I imagine long range are bigger. If you, or anyone, ever decides to go buy a Tesla, make sure you go with long range. I think the Model 3 is the only option where you had the choice between standard and long range. It came standard with the Y when I purchased.

The usual white noise retort with zero substance. I see you have no value for an actual EV owner who has done a cost study of fuel savings over tire wear and this is all you have. Sad really.

Did I mention to you that it's Mental Health Awareness Month?

I'm reading that you shouldn't charge every night and shouldn't charge to 100... is that just gurglefitz and whatnot?

I’m reading you shouldn’t overfill your gas tank as well. More gurglefitz.

You can charge every night no matter how low you are but depending on the model, they don’t want you to charge to more than 80% or 90% unless you are going on a trip, then charge to 100%. It’s the same reason iPhones don’t want you to charge to 100% every night. 80% or 90% is plenty and then some for daily driving.

I’m not sure I share your other concern about “the ticking time bomb”. I think similar to a gas car, you can get a couple hundred thousand miles on an EV if you treat it well. You’ll get some battery degradation but they’ve got 10 year studies now that show battery degradation can be minimized if you follow the guidelines on how to take care of the car and battery. Even so, let’s say in 150k miles you need a new battery, hopefully they’ve come down enough in cost that it would be comparable to replacing an engine or transmission. Just like you can keep doing things to keep the ICE car running, you should be able to do the same with an EV.

Another nice thing about teslas specifically is there is no functionality or software difference between a 5 year old car and a new one. Everyone gets over the air updates so no reason to buy something newer because it has more software bells and whistles.

Read the post after yours. Maybe you'll understand why I asked. Probably not, but anything's possible.

Thanks! I found a couple cool sites after digging in a little today. I'm going to go ahead and retire the ticking time bomb moniker. I think I was a little too caught up in the stated warranties rather than some of the practical studies like you mentioned. I think you'd have to develop some good habits as far as battery maintenance, but it seems like just getting used to something new. I'm also seeing some decent pricing on used with low mileage.


More dumb questions...

Home charger is around 500? Are you paying an electrician another 500? Can I program the car to charge to only 80%?

EDIT: This site was very informative...

Top 10 Tips to Maximize EV Battery Life

Yes, I spent about $500 on the charger and $550 on the install. Install can be more expensive depending on age of the house, breaker box situation, etc. It’s not a terrible idea to get a quote on that before purchasing the car just in case.

And yes you set the car to what level you want to charge it to.

Haha. No you can charge every night. They just recommend that you cap at 80% charge which you can do via the app. Super easy. It used to recommend a 90% cap but they dropped it. 80% is still more than enough to get me where I need to be.

If you’re getting ready to take a massive road trip, you can go full hundo right before hand.

I had a 40 Amp installed at my last house by a guy that Oober referred to me (thanks again Oobs). He was very reasonable. More reasonable than my builder actually, although my new outlet at my new house is 50 Amps.

Funny story about the install at my last house: I got talking to the guy and he was like “How do you know Oober?” And I’m like “Actually I’ve never met him. Just know him from a Browns message board.” He kinda smiled and gently laughed, but his eyes said “I hope this guy isn’t Buffalo Bill.” Haha.

That is funny. Oober seems more like the shoot you in broad daylight type.

Found this:
Essentially, if you install a home EV charging station, the tax credit is 30% of the cost of hardware and installation, up to $1,000. Also, beginning last year the EV charger tax credit for business and home installations applies to other EV charger equipment like bidirectional (i.e., two-way) chargers.

Also, I thought you have a recently built home, as far as wiring, shouldn't that have been EV ready?

https://blinkcharging.com/blog/new-building-code-standards-will-require-wiring-for-evse

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ev-charging-us-building-codes/

Yeah it was EV ready when it was built, but the option for the 50 Amp in the garage was extra when we were making our floor plan selections with the builder.

Oddly enough, I’m the third house in a row of Tesla owners on my new street. We all had the outlets installed. It was something that had to be selected though when you finalize your floor plan. Anyone who didn’t choose that will have to get it done post-build.

So it is true all you bougie types stick together.

It’s boughetto types actually

That's pretty good.

I think EV's are great right now so long as you have the right set of circumstances (daily mileage and propensity to road trip, and access to charging at your home).

More traditional automakers are signing on to Tesla's charging network. There was a large group that all announced late last year.

And don't you forget it.

Man, between you shoot-in-broad-daylight types and these creepy, rusted, broken down vans parading as ice cream trucks driving by my house as I type this, I'm beginning to wonder if moving to Ooberville was the right idea

You and Oober should work together in order to get your HOA board to keep those rusty vans parading as ice cream trucks out of the neighborhood. We only permit top shelf food trucks and organic ice cream vendors into ours.

He's in a different part of town from me. I'm pretty sure he's using his pull around these parts to make sure we only get the bad ice cream trucks while his neighborhood probably has door-to-door Graeter's delivered fresh daily.

Yeah, that sounds like something he would do.

I live so far back in my development that the HOA doesn't even bother with us. It's the wild west back where I'm at. Mailboxes don't match, people can have small sheds... PURE CHAOS!!!

I know right. Many people here are actually parking their RVs beside their own home on their own property. It’s crazy.