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I find that when issues come up for a vote in the Senate, I don't feel that I have a good understanding of what is going on when they talk about the filibuster.

On one hand, I hear that the Dems have control of the Senate. That they can pass what they want. McConnell said it himself in relation to the debt ceiling. He said that the Dems have the ability to pass it on their own without any Republican votes.

On the other other hand, almost every other bill is requiring 60 votes to pass.


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A filibuster is basically just a tactic to delay... basically any senator can talk for as long as he/she would like to delay or try to kill a bill proposal. For legislation it takes 2/3 of present senators (60 if all present) to vote to stop the filibuster... they've made some changes so somethings they can use a simply majority to vote to kill the filibuster

The longest single person filibuster in US history was by Storm Thumond when arguing against the civil rights act of 1957... it went for over 24 hours... despite the filibuster then legislation was passed shortly after he stopped...


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But it doesn't seem like anybody is actually talking


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Quote:
Storm Thumond




"Strom", but still.


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Originally Posted By: Jester
But it doesn't seem like anybody is actually talking


+ Senate rules (no laws - just internal senate rules) - require 60 votes in order to "end debate" and proceed to a vote on something.

+ Since you can't vote for something without deciding to vote on it - this, effectively means that you need 60 votes to pass anything, since the opposition could instead just continue debating on the subject forever.

+ In the past, you had to actually continue debating -- that is, if everybody stopped speaking, things went to a vote without this rule - so somebody had to physically stand there and keep speaking.

+ This was annoying to everybody, so the senate voted to amend their rules to require a formal vote (needing 60 votes) to proceed to the vote -- which means you don't actually have to stand there anymore.

+ It is 60 votes - again this is an internal senate rule. There are things that require 2/3 majority -- e.g. overriding a presidential veto or convicting on impeachment. These 2/3 majorities are actually written into the constitution or are law.

+ This causes havoc - because it can be impossible to pass bills that really need to be passed. So there are exceptions now written in for budget bills (and more recently for the confirmation of justices).

+ What is a budget bill? This has been interpreted very broadly to include things that have budgetary implications. Thus we see these huge yearly omnibus bills passed by whichever party is in charge --- cram as much stuff into the budget bill as possible purely because it doesn't require a 60-vote majority in the senate.

+ That being said, there is a senate parlimentarian who occasionally says "this has nothing to do with the budget" -- and throws out parts of the omnibus. This happened recently with the democrats plan to immigration reform into the budget bill: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/20/senate-p...udget-bill.html -- democrats had argued unsuccessfully that this would have huge economic consequences.

+ The entire requirement for a 60 vote majority could be killed by the senate (and because its a senate rule, it only needs 50+VP votes to be killed). This was done by the Democrats within the context of court justices (except supreme court justices) - and then done by the republicans for supreme court justices. OTOH, Manchin and others won't vote for this, so Democrats don't currently have the votes to do it.

+ There have also been discussions to bring back "the pain" of filibustering -- e.g. requiring the opposition to actually stand up and filibuster.


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Thanks.

Seems like a stoopid way of doing things


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Sorry... typo...


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Originally Posted By: Jester
Thanks.

Seems like a stoopid way of doing things


agreed....


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Originally Posted By: Jester
Thanks.

Seems like a stoopid way of doing things

Would you expect anything else, of course why would they stand up and talk, or even be required to be present, that is too much like work, and these are politicians.

So bad. So so bad.

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Originally Posted By: Jester
Thanks.

Seems like a stoopid way of doing things


Yes and no. It seems stupid when your party is in the majority and it doesn't when not.

Basically it protects the rights and interests of the minority. If you believe in minority rights, then it isn't stupid.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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Let's not conflate your "political minority" rights with actual minority rights and try to lay some weird guilt trip. Republicans shove things through ALWAYS and then try to stop dems from doing the same when they are in power. The filibuster is nothing more than a delay tactic that allows the minority to overrule the majority... which is not how democracy is supposed to work. But Republicans hate democracy anyway.

Dems need to sack up and play hardball.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 09/28/21 06:42 AM.

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I am not trying to make anybody feel guilty. In the context of politics the principal is the same.

The Dems have the votes. Just pass it.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

GM Strong




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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
Let's not conflate your "political minority" rights with actual minority rights and try to lay some weird guilt trip. Republicans shove things through ALWAYS and then try to stop dems from doing the same when they are in power. The filibuster is nothing more than a delay tactic that allows the minority to overrule the majority... which is not how democracy is supposed to work. But Republicans hate democracy anyway.

Dems need to sack up and play hardball.


Remember the GOP going ape-chit over Obama and his executive orders? Losing their ever living minds and calling him a dictator .... Obama - 2 terms. 276 Executive Orders. Trump - 1 term. 220 Executive orders.

It's the same as many other things that only matter to a Republican when a Democrat is in the WH: Fiscal Responsibility and National Debt, Spending, Media "sources", law and order .... I guess with every new issue we add to the list it is further proof of the total hypocrisy of the GOP. It's the "MME": Moscow Mitch Effect.


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Originally Posted By: mgh888
Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
Let's not conflate your "political minority" rights with actual minority rights and try to lay some weird guilt trip. Republicans shove things through ALWAYS and then try to stop dems from doing the same when they are in power. The filibuster is nothing more than a delay tactic that allows the minority to overrule the majority... which is not how democracy is supposed to work. But Republicans hate democracy anyway.

Dems need to sack up and play hardball.


Remember the GOP going ape-chit over Obama and his executive orders? Losing their ever living minds and calling him a dictator .... Obama - 2 terms. 276 Executive Orders. Trump - 1 term. 220 Executive orders.

It's the same as many other things that only matter to a Republican when a Democrat is in the WH: Fiscal Responsibility and National Debt, Spending, Media "sources", law and order .... I guess with every new issue we add to the list it is further proof of the total hypocrisy of the GOP. It's the "MME": Moscow Mitch Effect.




My comment isn't to point a finger at any one President.

The problem is executive orders in many cases are used to override previous executive orders, so as long as Presidents are using them as a go around of the legislative process, we will continue to see a growing usage. How many executive orders did President Biden issue to null and void orders of President Trump? How many did President Trump issue to null and void orders of President Obama? You can snowball it right down the line.

It is what it is. I think everybody agrees the President needs that power because sometimes you can't wait for a legislative process to play out, but then you get in to the tricky constitutional question of exactly how far does that power go, and has it gone too far?

I don't have the answer because a lot of people far smarter than I haven't been able to answer that question.


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Originally Posted By: jaybird
Originally Posted By: Jester
Thanks.

Seems like a stoopid way of doing things


agreed....
It's stupid only because (IMO) it has become a de facto negotiation tactic. Beyond that, though, it's merely a symptom of larger problem(s) with our current legislative.

As for executive orders, if Biden wants to write 1k EO's about using #2 pencils instead of pens, and the like... that's fine by me. What's more troubling than the quantity is that, more and more often, significant topics that should be addressed via multi-branch legislation are somehow being rammed through with these EO's. That's not right.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
I am not trying to make anybody feel guilty. In the context of politics the principal is the same.

The Dems have the votes. Just pass it.


They don't have the votes to raise the debt ceiling because it requires 60 votes in the Senate. McConnell refuses to allow GOPers to vote for it... It's the debt incurred during the Trump administration they are acting like is dems fault. Republicans just can not lead any more. They are too clueless and childish.


Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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