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Whether I vote or not will depend on who the Democrats run.

Had they ran an candidate even close to worthy of being president in 2016, Trump wouldn't be in charge now. One would hope that taught Democrats a lesson, but from listening to you, maybe not. Hopefully the base feels differently than you do. We'll see.

The 2016 election taught us the same lesson the 2012 election taught conservatives.

Screw being nice.

This thread is pointless because the Trumpian GOP slung a turd into the White House first.

Nobody said anything about playing nice. My point was you do however need to run an electable candidate. One that will at least be somewhat attractive to Independent voters. That's something you didn't do in 2016.

Again, why do we need to attract independent....scratch that, moderate voters when the right didn’t waste their time with you guys?

They shown the left that we can indeed run progressive candidates and win if we focused on our own demographic in elections.

Once again, you’re trying to tell me what the winning strategy is, when the demographic that’s actually winning elections isn’t doing one thing you’re saying. They stuck to their demographic and it worked.

Because they used fear and hate as their motivator and the left didn't do a damned thing to attract any of those in the middle. Just look at the pattern here and see if you don't notice anything.

GWB - A HUGE divider who could barely speak English. Remember "The misunderestimate me"? I mean the Bushisms are a mile long! lol

Guess what that brought us?

The anti-Bush. Obama.

Eight years with a well spoken, articulate black president?

Guess what that brought us?

Trump!

In every case I mentioned right up until Trump, each one got eight years.

Now I do understand the situation. Please consider that and don't think I refuse to understand it.

But if one does not learn from history they are doomed to repeat it. In every one of these cases the opposing party could not come up with a candidate to run against the sitting president to drum up the middle.

Look, the GOP are going to get Republican voters even if they run some stupid dumb ass. We just witnessed that in 2016. The Dems are going to get their voters no matter what. Accept guess which ones they lost last time? Some of the Bernie supporters. So the Dems still haven't even figured out that you vote for your own no matter what.

Which is why I don't belong to a party. I'm not going to sell my soul down the river for which ever jack ass a party runs. That goes for both parties. Some people feel that's a fine approach, but not me.

So if you're going to break the cycle I plainly laid out above, to stop Trump from getting another four years just like the last few have gotten, you're going to need the middle. And let me tell you something, you won't have to work that hard to do it. Most in the middle are SEARCHING for a reason to vote for any candidate besides Trump!

So as long as you don't go off the deep end with some whacked out, super Socialist candidate it shouldn't be hard. Just don't go off the deep end and blow it.

The right swung all the swing states what are you even talking about? Why did I even "unhide" your post what a bunch of nonsense.

again, WHY SHOULD WE? the left just witnessed the far right getting everything they wanted without attracting you guys.

thats the whole point. the moved further to the right, attracted those voters to show up and vote for Trump. meanwhile most of the mods stayed home. hell, most of the far left stayed home too, the bernie bros.

they aren't moderates, bro. they are far left. OCD, CHS, Rocket. they aren't moderates by any stretch of the imagination. they also stayed home and didn't vote for the moderate hillary clinton.

but they would've voted for bernie, who is a socialist. they would vote for warren, who is a progressive. they will vote for Ocasio-Cortez, who is a socialist.

Two of them are in senate already, and one just one a primary....nevermind, TWO different primaries. one she didn't even actually run in.

the cycle thats being broken is the status quo of democrats. they decided to play hardball just like the GOP, and more progressive candidates are running.

again, if you mods feel thats not good, create your own party, or uplift some of the ones already established.

and most of the hillary voters? would also vote for the socialist in bernie sanders. he aint middle, no where near it.

i personally love it. we might actually start seeing a political movement in this country as far as parties and representation go. we might actually get closer to the europeans, who in their countries have multiple viable parties. i mean damn, Germany has 3-4 major parties holding any number of seats.

thats a good thing. thats how it works. progressives have their party. mods have their. the right wing has theres, and the far right has theres.

i dont see what the problem is with that. its certainly better than having two parties and nothing else.

bpg, buy a clue. you realize how many people didn’t even bother showing up? a ton of mods/independents/far left.

its easy to swing states when the opposition doesn’t show up. how oblivious are you?

and by the way, that you still got people ignore only proves what a hypocrite you are. always talking about being considerate and nice and polite and open minded, yet you're the main one here with a deep ignore list.

pathetic. and predictable that the guy yelling the loudest about civility is the one not showing any.

You poor poor blind Democrats.
In the interest of helping America, I will tell you the score.

The Republicans have everything important going for them now, the economy, tax cuts, unheard of economic growth (4 percent GDP growth coming soon), a booming Stock Market and the desire of the people to have a Supreme Court based on the Constitution. Not to mention the lowest unemployment rates in history.

The Democrats have zero policies except to deluge our Country with hoards of immigrants, taking away our tax cuts, limiting guns and every emotional victim story that comes down the pike.
The key Democratic Policy today is Outrage. Outrage will win you nothing.

The thing you could have going for you is healthcare.
America needs comprehensive healthcare.
But what do you do with that issue? You turn it into Nationalized Socialist Healthcare.
The best your leaders can come up with is to somehow return to a failed ObamaCare.

If you had a good plan for healthcare, you would have an issue that would get you many votes.

yea I'm not sure why we insist that you gotta run centrists to win. That may have been true at some point but it's becoming less so now. It seems now that if you're a moderate you are "fence sitter" and people either want left or right candidates.

Last centrist platform president I can think of was Clinton in 92 and he had Ross Perot siphoning from HW. Had Perot not received 19% of the vote I think we'd have had HW for 8 years.

please, everything good about the economy got handed to you by obama.

but of course, yall love taking credit from crap you wasn't apart of while blaming others for the things you were.

On this we agree. I think this is the issue of our time, and Democrats "Fixing" healthcare by throwing a mini-bandaid on the problem led to quite a bit of outrage and the formation of the Tea Party. They had a shot to go for Single payer and fumbled it at the goal line because Lieberman didn't want to lose re-election. Unfortunately for everyone else, he retired because he wasn't going to win anyway.

The ACA fixed a few things, but it is not Universal. We are the only highly developed nation to not have Universal Health Coverage.

Have it your way. I mean you've been following politics for well over 40 years and have a complete understanding of how everything works.

I remember back when I was in my 20's when I knew everything. lmao

No offense, but you're completely wrong. The Democrats don't run socialists, Bernie is an Independent, AOC might still be challenged by Crowley. The Democrats only run people to the right of Howard Dean. Look at the Democrats last two Presidential elects. You have Obama, who made it illegal to not be a private healthcare consumer and you have the Clitons which helped build our prison industrial complex. Neither of them operated from the left, but rather from the center of the aisle. Now that might be fine and dandy for people cozy'd up at home, but for most people these laws only hurt them more and could've been created by Republicans. Republicans are not wrong that Democrats do pretty much nothing to help the working people. The Democrats main goal is to stand to the left of the Republican candidate and vow to work with him.

At the end of the day Democrats only role is to help the Republican establishment. You see it constantly in the laws we have as well as even the rhetoric. Democrats want to work with Donald instead of thumbing their noses at him like the Republicans did with Obama.

Also, a lot of socialist policies, once Americanized to remove scary connotations, poll excessively well with every American. Take Medicare for all, which is polling at 60%+ favorable.

If this election taught us anything, it's that middle America wants a plan. When DJT wasn't flirting at socialistic policies like universal healthcare, he was giving Americans a plan. HRC, your establishment politician, who might as well ran as a Republican, had no plan and no vision. So Americans thought it'd be better if we try to open 1000+ factories and try to compete with Cambodian children in manufacturing, than having no plan and just taking on water.

On this we agree too

The early returns on the tax cuts are not very positive: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-18/trump-s-tax-cut-hasn-t-done-anything-for-workers

thats because this country has a nasty habit of being stagnant and not adapting to current political climates.

being born, stationed as a pre teen, and then stationed again as an adult in europe, ive been paying attention to how they operate.

while we certainly have our own culture and them theirs, the political evolving and adapting seen in their political climates makes me envious.

that ability to adapt is maybe the only thing i would take from the europeans as far as political parties. we are so stuck in archaic way of thinking in politics that im just sick of it.

people have their own parties, so they have a hard right, hard left, moderate, religious parties.

AND THEN thats when those parties get together in government and try to get bipartisan support.

hard right parties to make serious attempts to attract mods and hard left. hard left parties dont bother trying to attract mods and hard right. mods stick to mods. every body has their demographic that they target, and once those politicians have a position, THEN there's the emphasis on working together to pass legislation.

meanwhile in america, we like doing things the hard way. we're stuck trying to attract mods even in the primaries, which ends up leading to people holding their nose even in state/local/congressional elections.

the only time attracting independents matters is the general election, and even then, we are starting to see that not be the case anymore. hell, pit just laid out the very argument for me when he described how the last few generals went.

i remember in my 20's when i actually showed up to vote. your 40 years of following politics means nothing to me when you dont show up.

There you go! Stick with that logic!

Take that to the Polls with you.

A Georgia state politician screamed the ‘N-word’ and exposed himself on Sacha Baron Cohen’s show in an attempt to ‘fight off terrorists’

https://www.yahoo.com/news/georgia-republican-faces-calls-resign-164612508.html

lets not pretend like people around there weren't aware of his views while holding political office.

the far right get guys like this in, but a socialist is obviously worse than racist.

That's the difference between us. I consider my vote as a valuable commodity. I expect someone to earn it if they want it. From the sounds of it, you just give yours away.

I saw that last night... shook my head alot.

Also lul'd at the bachelor woman shilling for a charity to train child soldiers.

uh huh. the right considers you not showing up a valuable commodity too. they appreciate you not showing up.

And had Hillary have won, I'm sure 40 would post the same thing.

i agree. and he would've had a solid point, too.

No, 40 would have moved to Canada like all you Liberals promised to do.

Neither of you do if you feel you would both be right. lmao

Run someone worth a damn and they'll get my vote. Don't and they won't. It's a basic concept. Some people still believe in earning it. Some don't.

those are your beliefs.

i have my own.

That's fair enough.

I wish America took more seriously the amount of non-voters that they have. If you heard that Russia, or a Global South government won the election off of 25% voter turnout, you would assume that country is a fascist state with a puppet government. In America, 25% voter turn out is looked at like an amazing feat of policy.

I think it's in part a reflection of people who just don't care and an equal reflection of how poorly the two major parties are at running candidates that reflect the interests and views of the people who do care.

You can say I am completely wrong. You can ignore the rants and insults from Swish who goes off on anyone who doesn't completely agree w/his radical takes. You can ignore the logic of compromise. You can refuse to work cooperatively w/others. That's all fine and dandy. Just don't expect to win an election.

I've stated my beliefs politely. I did not insult anyone. I said I respected those who liked socialism and did not try to change anyone's mind. But, Swish has to come in here and start w/his lame-ass insults.

It's impossible to have a real conversation on here. You got guys like Vambo and 40 on one side and Swish and Perfect on the other. Insult, insult, insult. Phooey.

my name gets called on here more than God.

I've been seeing a lot of posts by Ytown lately. That statement may be a bit of a stretch. lol

Vers, you know our respect and admiration for each other goes both ways. And I meant no disrespect in my OP. But as a communist, I need to at least try to give the PoV from a socialists side. America's safety net is hardly socialist, it doesn't even provide universal healthcare, and the working rights in this country are basically non-existent. Democrats have essentially just been nicer Republicans. You can see that now with the #walkaway campaign, that people who believe in social equality can now join the Republicans. This now leaves the Democrats with no real identity, just trying to keep their base together.

Also this forum, this subforum in particular, is like a reality TV show. Everything is completely staged because we know we're on a stage. It's like that on pretty much every forum, but this place and the smack shack are particular staged as they give us roles to play. Especially among the group of active posters here, who love to pit the "right" vs. "the left". A lot of this is just narrative for trolling and if you seriously engage these posters, you can get serious conversation. I'm having a great talk with Devil currently in Eve's thread. DC and others get serious responses.

Another post from my biggest fan about me, he just can't stop thinking about me!

Living rent free in Vers head, and the good part is there is nothing else here to share it with!

Apparently he was in your head first ... having stalked him as I have witnessed.

Hey! Me too.

Are my posts coming out in invisible ink again?

Yeah, I took out my frustrations on you. I apologize. I was just frustrated by the whole conversation because you can't make a point around here w/out being called a "fence-sitter" or a "whiner" or being age-shamed.

I just don't think a socialist can win the election. That doesn't mean I don't respect the opinions of socialists or value their beliefs. I respect your views on communism. I think having various opinions and ideologies is a good thing.

I just think that we need to work together and compromise in order to move forward. That was my main point. I also don't want Trump reelected and right now he is the odds-on favorite to win in 2020. I think we need to figure out a way to not allow that to happen. And I don't think that either of those sentiments are "completely wrong."

You and I have been having some nice dialogue recently. And I appreciate how you took it easy on me when I was so far off on the movie. LOL...I felt pretty foolish. Thanks for correcting me gently.