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Quote:
If someone supports him after Jan 6th. They are also traitors.


I am no big Trump fan, but that's horse crap.


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No it is math.

Jan 6th were actions of treason. trump led an insurection to try and overthrow the vote of the people.

If someone supports those actions and supports trump after those actions.

One plus one.

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He didn't lead it. That would be a feather in his cap for leadership.

He stoked fears and created an angry mob and then let them do their thing so he could argue to avoid accountability.

If he actually led it, you could argue he was finally showing leadership qualities (which would be something of a silver lining).


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He didn't "lead" the attack personally - but without his lies, his rhetoric, his hate filled speeches ... the attack never happens.

So how do you square that? Without Trump's agenda and the Big Lie - something never happens, so fair to say he did actually cause and insight the attack? How far is that from "leading" ?

I think it's willful ignorance of Trump supporters to avoid these facts. Just like it's willful ignorance to ignore dye in the wool Republicans who have verified the election result is fair and without mass voter fraud. Willful ignorance to ignore Moscow Mitch and Barr and others who have said the same thing. Willful ignorance to try to ignore Trump's ongoing lies and hate that are spreading misinformation to millions. Willful ignorance to ignore that Trump still controls the GOP.

Last edited by mgh888; 07/08/21 09:29 AM.

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See it how you will.


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He led the idea. He's the one who sowed the seeds of contempt. And if it wasn't for another Trump lie, he would have been leading them. They thought he was leading them because he told them he would march to the capital with them. But of course once again he lied to his base supporters.

If people can't see that the reason for all of this were the lies he kept telling his supporters to spur on the insurrection, it's beyond the point of trying to reason with them.


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
He led the idea. He's the one who sowed the seeds of contempt. And if it wasn't for another Trump lie, he would have been leading them. They thought he was leading them because he told them he would march to the capital with them. But of course once again he lied to his base supporters.

If people can't see that the reason for all of this were the lies he kept telling his supporters to spur on the insurrection, it's beyond the point of trying to reason with them.


I think this is where keeping it simple really pays dividends.

For me debating about what the people who listened *thought* - is easy for Peen and the 'plausible deniability' crowd to dismiss / tune out.

I think simply stating that without Trump's continuous Lies about a stolen election the riot and attack would never have happened is a undeniable fact. I think that's big enough for him to own all of it. I mean if you really want to dig into it - he was prepping for the Lie way before the election with the "The only way I lose is if it's rigged" BS. But the deeper into the weeds you go the more "outs" the Cult see and grasp.


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He was doing the same thing in 2016. Had he have lost to Hillary we may have seen this same thing four years earlier. That's what I don't understand. He peddled the same lie about the only way he could lose is if they cheat during both elections, four years apart. And they believed him both times.


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My point about him leading was a sort of ironic angle on his overall leadership abilities and him getting people to do his will while retaining the ability to play dumb to the whole thing. My post was not intended to be especially insightful.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Sorry if I didn't take it in the spirit in which it was intended!


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I just wanted to clarify, is all.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Quote:
If someone supports him after Jan 6th. They are also traitors.


I am no big Trump fan, but that's horse crap.


Just so I understand, do you feel that leading an insurrection against the US Government is acceptable behavior?

Last edited by Damanshot; 07/09/21 08:20 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Damanshot
Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Quote:
If someone supports him after Jan 6th. They are also traitors.


I am no big Trump fan, but that's horse crap.


Just so I understand, do you feel that leading an insurrection against the US Government is acceptable behavior?


I do not.

I don't think that was a insurrection. It was a peaceful protest similar to what we have seen in Portland, Seattle, and other cities.

If your idea of a insurrection is some guy in a Viking hat, you don't have a clue.

If and when a insurrection occurs, you'll know it. Large portions of the military will be involved. Large numbers of states will call for cessation. Not a few hundred motley crew want to be's running around sitting in Senators chairs.

Get a grip.


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Get a clue.

If it’d happened on Obama’s watch your head would have exploded. But donny… such a cultist.


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Originally Posted By: PortlandDawg
Get a clue.

If it’d happened on Obama’s watch your head would have exploded. But donny… such a cultist.


Now I am a cultist...whatever.


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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen

If and when a insurrection occurs, you'll know it. Large portions of the military will be involved. Large numbers of states will call for cessation. Not a few hundred motley crew want to be's running around sitting in Senators chairs.

Get a grip.


You seem to forget that Capitol Police is among the largest, best funded and equipped police orgs in the world (relative to the area it is tasked to).

This might have not have been your point, but insurrection is the wrong word, IMO. It was an attempted coup.


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It was such an innocent thing that the Republicans in our senate blocked an investigation to find out what actually happened and who all was involved. They refuse to admit what happened. They lie about what happened and now Trump is trying to applaud what happened.

They're beyond help. 140 Capital police were injured. But one thing I will say, they gave up another option for the American flag. They used to say the only option was to stand for it. They've now shown they have a second option for it. To beat the cops with it.


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I'd like to offer my take on the back and forth. I'm sure some - if not many - will disagree:

I do not think Trump led an insurrection. I think Trump has shown a history that he's a sore loser. He deflects constantly rather than admitting that maybe he did something wrong, or that he just lost something. He can't accept it. I think he riled up his base both to put pressure on those in Government in a desperate attempt to somehow reverse the results. I don't think that he intended for the crowd to actually storm the Capitol. He obviously did not lead them, because he was nowhere near the action.

He does bear responsibility for the insurrection. I think this boils down to one question at the core: would the insurrection have happened had Trump not been the incumbent president in this scenario, and conducted himself in the way that he did? I'm sure there will be obtuse answers to this, but I think we know the real answer.

It was an insurrection. Insurrection is defined as "an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government." Key word there is "act or instance." I liken it to the beer hall putsch. I think that is literally what happened on January 6th. I think what you are describing in your post is a full on coup, rebellion, or civil war.

The January 6th was not just some guy in a Viking hat, but you know that.

The stuff that happened in Portland, Seattle, and the other cities was rioting. It was criminal, and it was wrong, and anyone who was involved on that level should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I do not think it was an insurrection. You're a fellow JD. You know the actus reus has to meet the elements.

I think where I fault one side in this argument is that there is an image created of Trump where he led an insurrection. I don't think he led or had the malicious intent that rises to that level. I think he was reckless in his behavior and it had consequences.

Where I fault the other side in this argument is acting like nothing happened and/or doing a what-about by looking at other cities. I don't know how many times I need to say this: One bad action is not justification for another. One person's hypocrisy in their arguments does not justify another hypocrisy. Things that are wrong, are wrong, regardless of our wishes, inclinations, or the dictates of our passions. There may be different levels of wrong, but wrong is wrong.


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Common sense and intellect, all in the same post!


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You do realize he actually told them that he would march with them to the capital, right? But yes, they were foolish to still be believing anything he said.

But you could be right. He may not be smart enough to realize he was leading them to violence. After all he's spent a lifetime saying nasty things with no consequences. The fact is he did rile up and cause these events with his words.


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AND he did nothing to stop them while the event was unfolding. He didn't call in the guard, he didn't talk to Pence, and he told McCarthy "Well Kevin, maybe they are more upset about the steal than you are..." or something similar to that. It was widely reported.


Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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That's a good post. I agree - the events of Jan 6th don't happen without Trump's Big Lie .... so he is culpable. The rest is sot of semantics - whether you chose "led" - "responsible for" - "lit the fire" ... none of that matters. He was the instigator in Chief in my eyes. He won't ever be held accountable however.

One issue I have is the idea that posters are fine with the rioting and looting that occurred throughout many cities as a result of or in reaction to the death of George Floyd .... I have not seen that. What I have seen is myself, Pit, OCD and others all say - "Hold anyone who acts criminally accountable". Are there specific posters or threads where you believe posters were saying something different?


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
You do realize he actually told them that he would march with them to the capital, right? But yes, they were foolish to still be believing anything he said.

But you could be right. He may not be smart enough to realize he was leading them to violence. After all he's spent a lifetime saying nasty things with no consequences. The fact is he did rile up and cause these events with his words.


Yeah, it's more of the latter part. I think he's impulsive. I don't think he thinks anything through. He's obviously very reactionary. Just based on what I know of him, I don' think "premeditated" is really something that's in his repertoire.


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Originally Posted By: dawglover05
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
You do realize he actually told them that he would march with them to the capital, right? But yes, they were foolish to still be believing anything he said.

But you could be right. He may not be smart enough to realize he was leading them to violence. After all he's spent a lifetime saying nasty things with no consequences. The fact is he did rile up and cause these events with his words.


Yeah, it's more of the latter part. I think he's impulsive. I don't think he thinks anything through. He's obviously very reactionary. Just based on what I know of him, I don' think "premeditated" is really something that's in his repertoire.


Ignorance is no defense in the eyes of the law - or it wasn't when I was at college.


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Haha, same here.

I'm not saying that ignorance is a defense and that he wasn't responsible. He's definitely responsible.

I just don't think he has the capacity, the patience, or the self-control, frankly, to have mapped out what would happen that day.


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Originally Posted By: dawglover05
Yeah, it's more of the latter part. I think he's impulsive. I don't think he thinks anything through. He's obviously very reactionary. Just based on what I know of him, I don' think "premeditated" is really something that's in his repertoire.


You know, if I hadn't been paying close attention and looked at it as a single, isolated incident I would agree with you.

But that's not what this is. Remember when he was running against Hillary? "If I lose this election it was rigged." That was back in 2016. Then when he ran against Biden. "If I lose this election it will be rigged. They will have to cheat to beat me."

So the seeds of this type of thing to happen were sown back in 2016 in his first presidential election. Then repeated in 2020. You must first set the stage and plant the seeds in your supporters minds to pull off such a thing. To condition them to believe you. That conditioning had been going on since 2016.

Then one would have to believe that it was some kind of coincidence that Trump just happened to call for a rally on the exact same day as the election was to be certified and ask for his followers to march to the Capital. And that the speakers at that rally actually said things to intentionally incite the crowd. That he lied to them that he would march with them.

No, this wasn't a spur of the moment thing. This wasn't an impulse. This was a plan. And it's all still unfolding.


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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
No, I don't know how Hillary felt.

I do know that tax evasion charges are the last resort thrown because if nothing else, you can usually find enough dubious dealings to at minimum keep throwing accusations. Especially when a person or company has complicated tax returns.

When you don't have anything else, get the books, surely there is something.


Cept in this case it’s just the beginning. There’s a lot of something else here and it’s not just cooking the books.


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A pattern of years of tax abuse aren't a serious thing don't you know. It's one of the few crimes that either don't count or are an act of desperation to "get them" among those who have wealth. Because you know, they're being picked on. You read such tripe than have no questions at all how corporations making billions of dollars pay nothing in federal income tax.

It's why it gets labeled as white collar crime. Because crime doesn't matter when a white collar commits it. They make their criminal acts sound like nothing. Murica!

Then they'll stand there and tell you they're the party of personal responsibility.


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Right?! What’s a little tax evasion? Meh.
I mean it’s not like he was selling cigarettes on the street corner, or trying to pass a bad $20 bill. I mean those egregious crimes could get you executed on the street by cops.


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I think we just disagree to the level of scienter that he has. Quite frankly, knowing how he handles his business, and how often people have to step in and rescue him from himself, I just don't think of him to be that smart, and at that level of control.

I think he has been proven over and over again to be insecure of losing. In 2016, I think he just put it out there because he couldn't tolerate the thought of losing. I think the guy screams the same thing when he has a 2 and a 7 in Texas Hold'em and loses to a royal flush. He can't process the thought of losing, and I think his dad probably conditioned him as much, to the point where he just cannot accept the concept of losing.

As far as the rally on the date of certification, I do think he was desperate and hoping for pressure on those in Congress to act - including Pence - but I think it was part of his drawn-out tantrum, and not a master plan. I don't think he ever planned on marching with the crowd, regardless of the outcome. It's like the people who were left in the freezing cold wherever that was. He wants their validation and doesn't really care or think about their well-being or what they might do.

I could be wrong in all this, but those are just my instincts.


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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Originally Posted By: PortlandDawg
Get a clue.

If it’d happened on Obama’s watch your head would have exploded. But donny… such a cultist.


Now I am a cultist.


Yep you kneel and kiss the feet of trump with your unwavering support for him here. Trump instigated an insurrection. He should be prosecuted for it. But no you say. keep kissing his butt like all good Q men do. Pfft


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Perfectly stated, I lost a friend over Trump because I posted that all the Fuhrer's men need to come kiss his butt. He's a VERY flawed human being.
Things could get real interesting if Trump's money man turns on him- the guy isn't going to jail for any length at his age to save Trump, JMHO, the way Trump does things/ not paying taxes on benefits sure fits the mold- great business man, he bankrupts companies, is king of debt so he doesn't pay taxes, damn, all of us are suckers because we pay taxes...and we elected him President, WOW, how stupid are we. He's a scumbag.


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General Milley accounts of trump last days is chilling.

If that does not wake people up about the danger trump represents then they should forever remain sleeping.

He is a traitor to a democratic republic.

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Originally Posted By: bonefish

General Milley accounts of trump last days is chilling.

If that does not wake people up about the danger trump represents then they should forever remain sleeping.

He is a traitor to a democratic republic.


It truly is.. If this new commission to investigate Jan 6 calls him to the stand and he repeats what's been reported, this could be fun to watch


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Respectfully disagree in the strongest possible terms.

There has been nothing fun about this entire debacle, and seeing him on the witness stand will be yet another international embarrassment.

Nope, not fun at all.

Last edited by Clemdawg; 07/17/21 11:09 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Clemdawg
Respectfully disagree in the strongest possible terms.

There has been nothing fun about this entire debacle, and seeing him on the witness stand will be yet another international embarrassment.

Nope, not fun at all.


with all due respect Clem, you know what I meant.. Will it be fun in the sense of we'll all be laughing? Of course not..

And I know you know what I mean.....


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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Quote:
If someone supports him after Jan 6th. They are also traitors.


I am no big Trump fan, but that's horse crap.


No it's not.. His actions and the actions of his supporters on that day clearly show he was trying to change the outcome of an election he lost...

That's insurrection and that's just not something that is allowed in our country.

But then again, he did once say that if he shot someone on 5th ave., he wouldn't lose a vote..

I guess the same fools that wouldn't stop voting for him on that, decided then and there that the "law and order President" doesn't have to follow the law..

He can be a criminal and some will still vote for him...


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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Originally Posted By: Damanshot
What he's not telling his followers is that they are after a bigger fish... Him



No kidding? It's been a political assassination attempt since the guy won the nomination.


As it should be given his inability to tell the truth as evidenced by his election loss lies..

And here you are, still defending the insurrectionist


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Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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