DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Defense still wins championships #2

This sorta goes back to the beginning of the season and the soft coverages we saw.

I think Woods was trying to get these young guys to understand how important it is to maintain coverages on the back end.

When tasked with not letting anyone get behind him Delpit on 2 occasions let the receiver get behind him and we saw the results. Not anything that can't and won't get fixed but clearly a rookie mistake. When the gloves were removed and these guys were left to use their instincts they failed to understand how important it is they fulfill their primary assignment.

The good news is they will get better.

we got two guys in delpit and Green with very little experience playing. i thought green had a good game. and you're right, the blown coverages by delpit is just inexperience.

we just gotta get healthy, and hope we aren't playing vs. the refs every week.

I thought Green was outstanding and really held his own against Williams several times and Williams towered over him and he still held up.

We may have lost but we also had a ton of positives and we just couldn't overcome the poor officiating. I plan to write the NFL with my complaints. It won't do any good but this sort of thing can't go unchallenged.

There were several no calls on holding Garret, but the holding calls were awful in fact in one of the plays they called holding on Tretter and the defensive man had his hand around Tretter's throut. We all saw the shirt pull and PI call that was blown.

I was actually shocked they called face mask on the Hunt run at that point in the game I was sure that the officials were going to do anything they had to to insure the Browns didn't win..................

The problem wasn't the officiating.

It wasn't THE problem...but is most certainly was A problem.

Agreed. If the Browns had got the calls like the Chargers did, we would have won by 14. A correctly called/officiated game and we win by 3 or 7. . . . how that isn't part of the issue IDK.

I disagree with the premise of your post. I'd say, if the Browns didn't gift the Chargers 2 TDs on totally blown coverage assignments, we probably would've won by a score or two. Those blown calls were pretty bad, and they seemed to come up in crucial times, but this loss is on the D, IMO.

If your defense gives up 47, despite the opponent missing 2 XP and a "gimme" FG try, and despite your offense not giving the opponent short fields with turnovers, then most people would say that the defense is to blame.

Does anyone think that the Chargers would have blamed their offense if we had somehow managed to hit a TD on the final play of the game, to win the game?

You are correct. There is almost always more than one problem. Is it possible to overcome bad officiating? Yes it is. But in a league with all of the instant replay and all that we have, you shouldn't have to. It's always possible to point out mistakes that we made or great plays they made which, had they gone the other way, would have overcome bad officiating.. but teams/players are going to make mistakes and should be responsible for overcoming their own mistakes. For the most part, we did overcome our own mistakes and the Chargers overcame a few of their own, but blowing basic calls that change the entire trajectory of the game is inexcusable.

With all of the injuries on the defense yesterday, by the time we got to the fourth quarter, other than some kind of voodoo magic Berry or Ski couldn't have helped much.

Made me spit out my coffee.....................



Horse manure comes to mind.................

Biggest steaming pile of non sense I have read today, who you taking notes from TL or Riz or gee wiz ?

Facts are not excuses. When your top 3 CB's are not in the line up you seem to be confusing facts for excuses.

They stunk in the fourth quarter, but one needs to consider who "they" were.

Since you think it's an excuse, what team do you think could have stopped Herbert with their top three CB's out?

Poor officiating is one thing...missing a call is another thing...BUT

Refusing to see/call the blatant holding by whomever "blocks" Garrett is unbelievable and in yesterdays game...there were TWO critical penalties called against us where the other team was the one committing a penalty!

It's fashionable to say "the refs didn't lose us the game" and fans of every team think that their team gets slighted at times...BUT...yesterday...the refs saw TWO penalties being committed...I mean they actually SAW it...and they called the penalty against the wrong team.

That's a completely different level than simply complaining/whining about the refs.

NRTU/JC

Regular busted coverage and poor communication still prevalent in game 5 is alarming.

The Walker addition seems to not be working. In the games he was out we were FAR better off with Malcolm Smith on the field.

We also need our safeties to be more disciplined. Delpit and Harrison weren’t good yesterday

We can agree to disagree. These guys are in the NFL and should be expected to play, nobody was asking them to go into LA and beat the Chargers from the start or have an 11 win season, just put up some token resistance and slow the bleeding.

In the 4th quarter, on 4 LA possessions, we gave up 4 TDs, 241 yards of offense, in 6:46 TOP....

granted, the offense had two 3 and outs which would have helped if we had some ball control there.. but still, our offense scored 14 points in the 4th quarter and lost by 12...

Multiple HORRIBLY blown coverages. Inexcusably bad.
There shouldn't ever be a situation where you allow Mike Williams free run behind you, yet it happened more than once. You either have to be inept or be doing it by design for that to occur.

Being without 3 of our Top 4 CB's once Greedy got hurt surely didn't help, nor did being without Clowney. Say what you want, but he's been a major factor for this defense.

That all sounds great in theory. But if our back up players were as good as our starters, they would be making starter money somewhere else.

All of those saying things like "next man up" are doing nothing more than repeating hyperbole.

Nobody expects back-ups to be as good as the starters.. but it shouldn't be like falling off a cliff either..

Blame the coaches for lack of preparation... you don't let a WR run alone 25 yards behind your defense, that's not a talent problem, that's a coaching problem. If you are playing with lesser talent and trying to protect a lead then the #1 rule is keep everything in front of you, make tackles, force them to take the longer road to the end zone, hope they make a mistake or at the very least, eat up a bunch of clock.. Football 101.

Herbert is good, the Chargers are good.. but this is a team that came in averaging 23.75 ppg and hadn't scored more than 14 points in any one quarter all year... they scored more than their total ppg in the 4th quarter alone against us... that's not just because we had some back-ups in the game. You almost have to try to be that bad.

I don't understand... are you saying that they were coached to let a WR run free behind them, or that they have to specifically be coached to not let a WR run free behind them?

Neither, I'm saying that whatever defense was called for those plays, they weren't coached up enough to know what their assignment was and somebody botched it. Some of that is on the players, some of it has to be on the coaches.

Somebody was supposed to go with him, odds are 4 or 5 of them were where they were supposed to be, 1 player wasn't. That's all it takes.

It's the Belichick mantra, "Do Your Job"... Somebody didn't know what "their job" was... and it made everybody look stupid and helped cost us a game. Just like a backup QB has to have the tenacity to prepare every week like they are going to play, so does a back-up CB...

I never said it wasn't.

My comment was based on a poster blaming the officiation as the primary reason we lost.

It wasn't. Take away the 2 quick strike, walk in TDs we gave up and it is a totally different outcome. Even if they ended up scoring, how much extra time would have been erased from the clock? Now the final 5-6-7 minutes of the game is erased.

End of story.

Some of believe it was more about a breakdown of communication on the field than anything else.

Don't doubt that at all..

Personnel and package comes in from the sidelines based on down and distance, game situation.

Then the offense comes to the LOS and the defense adjusts based on their formation. Those adjustments need to be conveyed and understood.

then the play starts and 4 or 5 guys come off the LOS into their routes then it becomes about split second reads as to who has what responsibility. And those routes are specifically designed to create confusion and/or force DBs to make choices.. I get all that.

And it all has to work. So yes, it is understandable that a back-up who doesn't get the reps isn't going to be as good at it as the starter.. but somewhere between the coaching and the player decisions, there was a breakdown... twice.

You seem to be saying that when you're down to your fourth of fifth CB and a S who has only had three starts, that somehow the coaching can coach up players with huge limitations. You can only do so much with limited talent and experience.

I think you're more caught up with a concept than a reality.

No, what I'm saying is that if you are trailing Mike Williams by 2 steps or if he outbattles you for the ball or beats you with a great move.. that's probably because you lack the talent and speed to be a great DB in the NFL and probably deserve to be 2nd or 3rd string.....

If you are standing 15-25 yards away watching him fair catch a TD pass, that's because you made a huge mental error. And I don't care if you are the best CB in the league or down on the depth chart, I have very little sympathy for huge mental errors because that speaks to coaching and preparation.

Thank you! That is the entire point that I have been making...or trying to make.

This poor communication has been evident all year...except when we smoked the Bears.

We should not still have these communication/assignment issues in the 5th game of the season. Period.

That's totally fair WSU. I'd like to know if the defensive calls were getting in late on those plays. I heard someone mention that the corners and safeties were still talking to each other when the ball was snapped on one of those blown plays, though I haven't personally seen it.

So you think coaching causes a player to make a mental error? Really? Sometimes it's hard to believe that posters put such things on a message board.

You coach the players you have to play. Claiming that coaches can get into their minds and stop them from making mistakes is just nonsense. You're pulling players off the bench and they haven't really had a lot of experience playing in a game within this system. They're going to make mental errors. Practice and learning a play book is no comparison to an actual NFL game.

To pretend this doesn't happen elsewhere or that there was some magic coach this didn't happen to is fools gold.

Yes. Unapologetically yes. Or better put, "lack of coaching" causes players to make mental errors. For the record I also included "preparation" in there, which is on the part of the player to receive, understand, and execute the coaching.... so it could be all or part on the coach and the player... and I see I must be making headway in the argument as you have started to resort to snide sarcastic insults. Score one for me.

Bill Belichick has essentially proven that this is true. He had 20 years of success in New England for two primary reasons.. 1. Tom Brady... 2. Because he got more out of average talent than any other coach in history and he did it by making sure they were prepared and didn't make mental mistakes. That's what his whole mantra of "Just do your job" is about. Even if you aren't the most skilled player or the greatest athlete, if you are always in position to make the play you are supposed to make.. you will win more times than not.


Other teams have injuries, they substitute, they have lesser talent.. how often do you see a guy in the NFL 25 yards behind the nearest defender with nobody even chasing him? How often do you see it twice in the same game... to the same receiver?

Maybe you think I'm implying that people need to be fired or cut.. I'm just implying that if you want to be a legit contender in the NFL, these things can't happen.. with your starters or your back-ups.

I don't think you are really wrong there...mostly. I also think everyone that is arguing "against" you completely understands your point there.

But this miscommunication has been going on all year long...whether the starters or backups or a combination are in the game.

We signed the two great "communicators" in A Walker and JJ3 in the off-season...yet we still run around like Sendejo is still back there.

Maybe we have a defense full of dunces who can't follow instruction? But I doubt that. These guys aren't in high school here.

There is one other component to consider. Even if you disagree.

I just watched the past two games where our D gave up 6 and 7 points respectively.

So I'm not quite sure where you get "this miscommunication has been going on all year long".

We had a complete CB tandem of back-ups in that fourth quarter.

Had I felt you were correct in saying "this miscommunication has been going on all year long", then I would say it's systemic. But after the defensive performances in both the Bears game, and even more convincing, the Vikings game, we certainly disagree.

Belichick coached the Patriots for 21 seasons. Nobody else in the NFL has the longevity or experience with one single team in NFL history. If you think that's somehow a fair comparison to a HC one third of the way through his second season I would say you are mistaken. You haven't scored anything.

Delpit was making his third NFL start. People have always called what you saw as rookie mistakes..... until now.

No one is saying there is miscommunication on every play.

In the 7 point game you mentioned above, the drive to give up the 7 had numerous miscommunications in it...including the TD throw. They got it together after that...kudos to them.

There were two giant miscues against the Chargers that led to TDs. We lost that game by 5 pts.

We have guys running wide open in the middle and back of the defense...especially so on 3rd and 4th down it seems.

It's a thing...really.

Can you site any NFL games where there is never a single miscommunication?

I mean if you only gave up one TD in one game and six points in yet another game, I would certainly love to see defenses who do better and have less miscommunications.

In short, our defense played two great games in a row until our secondary was decimated with injuries. I see a direct correlation there.

This is something the Chargers have been doing all this year, if not longer. I have seen it on pregame shows a few times. They look like they are getting situated for the next play, not in a hurry, then hurry up and snap the ball. Numerous times they catch the D talking to each other, and sometimes not even looking at the offense.

If the network analysts know this, and have the tape, then so should our staff. Getting snookered by a technique a team is known to be using is not acceptable.

Here are the two plays that resulted in wide open touchdowns for the Chargers from the Jake Burns article...

The second-quarter touchdown was clear quarters look where Delpit locks in on the sail route from No. 2.



Note too where Delpit's eyes are when he hits the breaking point of the route. Green is expecting that inside help/bracket that never arrives. When you watch the clips you will see the secondary scrambling to get on the same page.



On the final long touchdown catch, it again comes from quarters. In this look, it feels like Harrison's eyes are wrong.



The backside cornerback handles the 1-on-1 side and covers the dig while Harrison should be seeking out deep coverage opportunities. He is normally eyeing No. 3 in the formation who stays in to block, so this is likely what causes him to misread the situation and get caught chasing.



Overall, the bust plays lead to 20 points, and those plays matter so much against good offenses. You have to make things as tough as possible in order to have even a chance. The Browns set those historic marks losing a game where they scored 40+ points and didn't turn the ball over due to these big plays. We know now John Johnson III is the new "green dot" communicator on defense and this could (major could) have led to some issues with the change. It is so uncharacteristic of Wood's defense to make this many mental mistakes with communication. Could the Chargers' tempo have also been a big part of the problem, sure. This is something they have to rectify and we will monitor how they do so over the coming week with another tough offense coming to Cleveland this weekend.

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