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I struggled for another place to put this...so I'm starting a new thread. The/An 'Other Games' thread could work I suppose...but this isn't about the other games...it's about the other TEAMS.

We know who the teams are in the AFC that are going to be in it at the end of the season:

Bills...Chargers...Chiefs...Ravens...most certainly

Us...Titans...maybe Bengals...Steelers/Goodell...Raiders?

Anyway...we've now played the Chargers and Chiefs...I've watched the Steelers/Bengals/Ravens in several games...the Bills a couple times along with the Raiders. The only one I've not got a good watch on are the Titans. We are still missing a fair amount of what most of the above teams already have...and I'm skipping the QB urinating-contest here...

We think/thought/have-been-told how great our "weapons" are...but...outside of RBs...

We don't have a WR core that matches up with the bulk of the above teams...the Bengals, Steelers, Chiefs, Bills, & Chargers all have better WRs than we have...I don't think it's even close...

Nor do we have the TEs that many of these teams have...we have (3) good ones...but the Ravens, Chiefs, Bengals, Bills, & Raiders all have TEs that routinely make big plays...

We don't (yet) have a scheme (or maybe talent) that gets players wide open like I just watched tonight...or like I watch when I see other teams and the separation that their pass-catchers get...it also isn't even close...

We also don't have the "Duos" that other teams do...outside or RBs...of course.

I'm talking like Hill & Kelce...Andrews & Brown...Chargers WRs...Steelers WRs...Bills WRs + Knox...even Chase & Ozumoah + young receivers...we have OBJ (sometimes)...Landry (usually)...Higgins and (3) good-not-great TEs. But the talent in our combined WR/TE groups is well-behind most-if-not-all teams listed in here.

We have a highly-rated OLine that is banged up like a Bus in a Figure-8 demolishon derby...but they don't get open or catch the ball...healthy or not. Other OLines - not as highly-rated as ours - sure seem to give their QBs plenty of time...regardless of where they are ranked.

We don't have that Defense - or that guy - who gets off the field or gets the stop when we need it.

We don't have that feeling of dominance that many of these other teams have...and that our offense somehow created in the last half of last year...

We have a good team...likely a very good team...but in many, many ways...our talent/groups is not where it needs to be to win games like I just watched tonight...and it isn't really close.

My hope is that this thread doesn't turn into a Baker fart-fest...I'm certain that it will if it lasts long enough...but hoping for some input on what it is that we DO NOT have in comparison to what our AFC opponents have.

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First wrong: You're wrong that the Bills TEs are anything but trash. Browns have 3 Te's the bills would wish to have, and both Bryant, and Hooper probably have gotten worse this year than they were last year.
Yet still, the Bills te's are a mess.
Edit: I shouldn't have used the word "wrong" I just have a different opinion on the players.

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Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
First wrong: You're wrong that the Bills TEs are anything but trash. Browns have 3 Te's the bills would wish to have, and both Bryant, and Hooper probably have gotten worse this year than they were last year.
Yet still, the Bills te's are a mess.


Here is what I said about TEs:

"...the Ravens, Chiefs, Bengals, Bills, & Raiders all have TEs that routinely make big plays..."

Njoku had a big play Sunday...finally...it's not a regular occurrence by any stretch.

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3. This year will show that acquiring talent cannot = success in the win loss column.

1. The others have, (some have), an absence of 2 losses to afc west teams. The Browns now have 2 losses to afc west teams.

2. It could be the in game play by play, poker card playing of the coaches. But! it is what it is, the Browns coaches are 3-2 and were 12-6 last year.

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They dont have a terrible hateful fanbase. They have a supportive fanbase. Even when they lose.


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Originally Posted By: WSU Willie


We also don't have the "Duos" that other teams do...outside or RBs...of course.



I think I understand what you are getting at. I posted something along this vein last week. I think the reason we don't have that featured "Duo" is because our offensive scheme isn't designed to feature those traditional relationships. Our scheme really is about a "--- by committee" approach. We are super lucky to have both Chubb and Hunt... they'd be fools not to handle the run game as such.

You ask what it is that they have that we don't. I think of this in terms of what do we have that they don't as possibly being the problem.

How many other teams out there are as deep (at least on paper) with pass catchers as we are? I'd venture not many.

Maybe this will illustrate what I'm getting at: without giving me the weekly unofficial depth chart answer, who is:

Our featured TE? Our featured #1,2, maybe 3 WRs?

The answer is that we don't feature anyone. We don't because the idea is that from week to week it can be Anybody.
That is not necessarily a bad thing, but there's a fine line between Anybody and Nobody.


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In terms of the Bills, Chargers, Chiefs, Ravens, Packers, Rams, etc … they seem to have QB play that escalates in the clutch. We have a serviceable (or even good QB) that needs things to be “good” around him.

I also notice those teams have opportunistic defenses. Maybe not GOOD defenses, but make plays. We don’t make plays in the clutch when it counts most.


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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I agree that we don't feature players for the most part.

A good example is Hooper. While with Atlanta the guy was catching around 80 balls a season and making the pro-bowl. Here, he is just a guy. OBJ has gone from one of the leagues best to a decoy. And we have to remember, the O isn't the problem.

On D it is hard to feature players. When you have a plyer to feature, you need to do it, and blitzing is really the only way to feature players. Both JOK and Delpit look to be guys who can get to the QB. Maybe we need to do that a little more?

The O has an identity. The D looks like a bunch of pansies out there. I am not sure if that is by scheme design or if it is just the way our defensive players play.

Something has to change on that side of the ball. When the O puts up 42 points and 500 yards total O with no turnovers, and you lose, you have a big problem.

We better figure it out quickly or next week Murray is going to slice us and dice us as he runs away from pressure to gain 20 with his legs or find the receiver we forget to cover and tosses multiple 70 yard TD's like happened last week.


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Something we have they don’t:

INJURIES up the wazooo … this is starting to remind me of the 49ers last year, only difference is most of their’s were season ending, ours aren’t other than Hubbard who is not even close to a core player …

We lost to two of the teams on your list in their houses in nail biters and last week we went into the game short handed on the OL and at CB and lost another CB for basically the whole game and then another OLman during the game, then to add insult to injury we lost our #3 CB late in the game …. That’s not an excuse, it is a reality that affected the outcome of the game … ….

I’m not disagreeing with you just pointing out the injuries were one of the reasons near if not at the top of the list for Sunday’s outcome … the TALENT is there and we’ll be fine IF we get healthy, everyone’s “searching” for “things” after an INCREDIBLY EMOTIONALLY TOUGH L …

Its a long season and we’ve taken some lumps early … i believe once the clouds clear better days are ahead ….

LETS GOOOOOOOOOooooooooo thumbsup




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they have QBs that can carry them to wins when everything isn’t going the teams way.

Last night game pretty much proved Rishuz and Lead right: baker is the 3rd best QB…in just our division. I don’t want to rank him based on just the AFC QBs, cause it will get depressing.

I’ve come around on baker being the guy…but it’s starting to become clear why Berry didn’t extend baker yet. Maybe we don’t need baker to be those guys. He just needs to manage the game. That’s fine.

But….that’s not what you draft a #1 overall pick for, or in the 1st anywhere. You draft that guy because he can carry your team to a W when everything else goes south.

I’m a bit ticked at stefanski with some of his play calling…..and then I realize that he has about as much confidence as Shanahan does in jimmy G, which is minimum. This is a QB driven league. And baker this season just isn’t hitting guys who are running wide open.

That’s the biggest difference between us and them. QBs who don’t fold when the deck is stacked against them.


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I don't and didn't watch a lot of Falcons games when Hooper was getting a lot of receptions and yardage. I did read an in depth analysis - it might have been the Athletic - talking about how much of Hooper's contribution came in garbage time in lost games or playing against soft defenses when Atlanta were chasing a 2TD deficit. Not entirely sure he is a legit 80 catch TE otherwise.

I don't know what OBJ deal is. I don't know if he no longer has what he used to. I don't know if he is getting open but simply not in the right (designed) spot. Whether he just freelances based on what the CB does - and whether that suits some QB's and not others. Because OBJ was once a top 5 WR in the NFL - it's tempting to assume all the fault is on Baker ... having watched OBJ line up in the wrong slot on darn near every play last year (or was it the year before?) I'll reserve judgement and say I just don't know. I did see a question posed the other day by a poster suggesting that if OBJ goes someplace else and does well again it must mean Baker is trash ... which of course is not true. Perriman did great with Baker, went elsewhere and did nada ... it just happens sometimes.

I do think our WR core is over valued by Browns fans. But DPJ and Schwartz are still young and have potential. Landry is rock solid, and OBJ has the issues we all know/see even if we don't understand.


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Good points about Hooper. I actually forget he’s on the team most of the time lol.

Defensively the injuries definitely took their toll last game. It was noticeable.

We need to be healthy and make plays on defense against the good teams.


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Reading though these posts i have not seen anyone mention something I think the Browns have lacked in a long, long time, even before the move to Baltimore. I can't remember the last impact LB that opposing OCs actually had to account for, WE have had some solid LBs, but too many seem to accrue tackles 6-8 yards past the LOS. We have a pro bowl CB in Denzel, Myles obviously is awesome.

I am hoping JOK becomes this type of player but having watched this team since 1969 they always seem to be 1-2 guys for the season and 1-2 big plays in important games away.

They always have my support but I just want a Super Bowl and I don't care how we get there, even if by complete luck .

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We have played 5 games in a 17 game season.

Crunch time is not here yet.

Our 3-2 record includes two loses to top teams. Those games we led most of the way. Games that we could have won.

We are missing a key receiver in Jarvis. Jarvis is a go to guy in key spots. A guy who could have gotten us a first down last week in the 3rd and ten when we could have closed the game out.

The second half of last year we made our run for the playoffs.

So I am not going to overreact to where we are today.

That being said I am dissapointed in Odell. All I heard during camp was how great he looked. How hard he worked and the extra time put in with Baker.

He dropped a ball that has to be caught.

He is not getting open or not getting found by Baker. Unless you have coaches tape and you can see all his routes I do not have that answer.

Baker played a bad game and we still won that game.

Baker may not be Aaron Rodgers few are. But he is good enough to take the Browns to a title.

Frankly, the criticism of him IMO is ill founded.

I do not believe there is a single player on the Browns that would not go to war with Baker. That is good enough for me.

The defense is very good when the starting lineup plays. That was clear in the Viking and Bears game.

What was also clear. When we lost the pass rush and had secondary players hurt. We got gashed. Not that the replacements were all that bad. What happened was bad communication.

That can be corrected. You can not have guys open by 15 yards. You can not give up fourth and long numerous times.

The Browns are not a sinking ship at 3-2.

Baker is not average. He is a good quarterback and has proven that.

The goal and outlook remain in place.

Odell has to produce. Either that or be traded.

We are not using Felton enough as a receiver. He is a guy who can get YAC.

Schwartz must be a part of the offense or start someone else.

DPJ was a camp highlight. Get him the ball or play Higgins.

KS had a bad game. Just like players. It happens.

The Browns are a team that can still win the Super Bowl.

What happens in September and October is not what happens in November and December.

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We have everything you say we don't have, and then we have what Diam said.

Our TE's are as good or better than any team you want to name, except Kelce as an individual TE because he's just on a different level. There's only one, so you cannot lament that one.

Duo.... this isn't Saturday Morning Cartoons, and having a marketing Dynamic Duo doesn't do anything for you... except merchandising. Pick two that you like.. Baker & Chubb, Chubb & Hunt, Bake & Landry, Bake & Odell, Landry & Hunt, Njoku & Chubb. The difference is that on teams that have that, they run their ENTIRE offense through those duo's because without those duo's they have next to nothing. Our offense runs through ALL of them.... which take us to what Diam said.

Whether anyone wants to actually acknowledge it or not, accept it or not: We are running 3rd String OT's on BOTH sides and our Center is banged up. If you don't think that is affecting things, you're insane.

On D: This D is built around the secondary and the DLine.... and we went into the game down one starting CB and one starting DE, then lost the other starting CB, then the first backup CB and the other starting DE got pretty badly banged up AND THEN, the guys that were still out there made a boatload of mental errors that gave them an entire game worth of points in the 4th quarter alone.

We're FINE. We have everything we need except Health and catching the breaks other teams are getting. We're only five weeks in and it's like someone drove a into our entire roster and then did donuts on their bodies.
We've been misfiring and other teams haven't... and YET, we took the Chiefs and Chargers to the wire. Oh, and by the way, those vaunted Chiefs and that dynamic Duo of Hill & Kelce is 2-3 and behind us in the Conference standings, so I'm thinking that things like them having a marketing Duo are a little overrated and pointless.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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So we’re back to blaming OBJ.

I don’t know why he’s the scapegoat. It’s funny that an old busted Eli Manning had no problem throwing to OBJ, but our #1 overall pick can’t.

And then in order to believe you, I have to completely ignore the tape of baker overthrowing OBJ, and literally every one else.

Baker didn’t even see Felton in the flat. Is that OBJs fault? Was it OBJs fault that baker had opportunity after opportunity to beat the chiefs and couldn’t? OBJ wasn’t there.

Is it OBJ fault that baker misses wide open hooper and Bryant? He wasn’t even targeting OBJ and still couldn’t make the throws. Guess that’s OBJs fault too.

The fact that Jarvis Landry is the heart and soul of the offense and NOT the QB should tell you something. The fact that Berry and the FO are hesitant to extend baker should tell you something.

Even with the trash refs last game, baker had plenty of time and opportunities to pull that win out. Two backup OTs gave baker plenty of time.

This is bakers 4th season. Why are we still talking about his lack of discipline when it comes to his mechanics?

If you polled GMs and coaches in the league, they are picking Herbert, burrow, Allen, Jackson, and a host of other QBs over baker.

Baker needs to step up just as much as anyone else. He has the best rushing attack in the league. He has the best o line in the league, even WITH backups. He has a HC scheming receivers wide open, and defenses are stacking the box to stop our rushing attack, allowing him to to go throw his progressions and make the right reads.

At some point, he needs to carry this team on his back. There is no excuse for baker this season. He has a better combo of O line and weapons than almost any other QB in the league.

Stop blaming the guy who plays the most dependent position in the league. Start blaming the guy who has the ball in his hand literally every snap.


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Let's be realistic here, though injuries had a bearing, this weeks game - just like the KCC game - was a winner if the Browns get a first down inside 3 minutes. The Browns have a great offensive team but the scheme they play dictates their inability to close out games.

Any of us could post nearly a book talking about the short comings of the defense which actually I think is still a work in progress. It's still going to take time IMHO. Offensively though, we have 2 areas of concern that can be addressed but probably won't be due to the scheme of the HC. 1st, running for over 150 yards controls the clock and the game as witnessed thus far this year. Unfortunately, when it comes down to the end and the opponent loads 8 in the box because they know as well as the whole world knows - the Browns are going to try to kill the clock by running the ball. Oh, they send out a couple WR's from a tight set on short routes covered by a man-to-man defense but more often than not, the Browns are running and usually can't due to 8 in the box. Go back and watch, it happens more often than not. The Browns scheme is not set up to close out games. Their 2 losses this year prove that fact. Even some of the wins have become suspect due to this inability to close out the game.

Second and even more important is the total lack of a 2-minute offense. I personally don't care who the HC is for any team, that job becomes a whole lot easier if you have a QB that is a threat to score anytime they get the ball with more than a minute left in the half or game. If your honest, You would admit that you knew in your heart that Herbert and Mahomes were going to lead their teams to scores against us at the end of both of those games. If your honest, you would have to admit that if Brady, Bress, Rodgers, Prescott, Roethlisberger, Mahomes, Wilson, or even Herbert getting the ball in the last 2-minutes is a bonafide threat to score. Think to yourself how many times you have heard the announcers talking about 2 for 1 where a QB leads the team to a score at the end of the half and are getting the ball first in the 2nd half. It's a common occurrence with the QB's listed above,
not ever about the Browns.

Look, like it or not, one of the best teams over the last 3-years has been the Ravens. That team has been running wild all over the NFL. However, when they get to the playoffs and must have that passing game (especially at the end of the half or game) it's been suspect at best. Yes they win a lot of games and is a very good team - but not a Championship team. Now Jackson and the Ravens have spent a whole off season trying to fix that issue. The verdict is still out but if last nights game is any indicator of their progress - the AFC has another bonafide contender.

Now, the Browns have not shown that ability yet. I don't believe it's Mayfield or the receivers fault either. It's the scheme and will always be an issue until the scheme is adjusted. IMHO, the receivers don't get space because the Browns don't throw enough. The Browns have taken a gun slinger in Mayfield and made him into a controlled QB. Now I do believe that some of this was warranted in the beginning until Mayfield learned to play the position but the Browns have went totally the other way. This controlled nature has killed the 2-minute drill and the ability to close out games. We have 3 former Pro Bowl receivers getting 5-6 targets a game if their lucky. I watch how other teams set up their WR's and TE's for success in the passing game - not the Browns. You can't take a guy who plays controlled with 20-25 attempts and suddenly expect that guy to throw 35-40 with success. IMHO, the Browns run offense would be an even bigger threat if the passing game was more open because the defenses would have to pay more honest.

Now this is just my opinion, but the next 4-weeks of practice for the Browns would be focused totally on the 2-minute drill and closing out games. The next step for the Browns to be a Championship team at least offensively is to become a real threat to score consistently during the 2-minute drill and close out games like a winner should be able to do. The defense is a work in progress and will get there. Even as poor as they have played, both losses were winnable - adjust the scheme!


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I think it's pretty clear that QB is somewhat of an issue. I've made my feelings known. The bottom line is he doesn't play his best when it matters most. Lamar is the opposite of that. I cannot continue to stress enough that is literally what the NFL is about. QBs who rise to the occasion. Just about every game in the NFL comes down to the final minute for various reasons ...bad defense, bad offense, refs, coaching...it's all about those last two minutes.

Having said that it's interesting when you compare the Ravens to the Browns. They let Lamar be himself and look to improve him based off of that. The Browns have turned a gunslinger into a game manager and this is what you get. Hell, you have your 1st overall pick talking in press conferences about "we know the identity of our team is running the ball". He's been emasculated. So when you need him to pass, pass, pass, pass, it's just no longer a part of his DNA.

To me, the shine has come off of Stefanski's O a bit. They need more complimentary football. Stefanski sounded shaken in his press conference yesterday and appeared to be a man searching for answers. I've never seen him look that way before.

As for Baker, we just have to hope that he can find his mojo. It's not the players around him, they are plenty good.. it's the coach, the playcalling, and his penchant for shrinking in the biggest moments.

It's a long season. Hopefully we can see a turnaround.

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Steve, that was spot on.

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Quote:
The Browns have taken a gun slinger in Mayfield and made him into a controlled QB. Now I do believe that some of this was warranted in the beginning until Mayfield learned to play the position but the Browns have went totally the other way. This controlled nature has killed the 2-minute drill and the ability to close out games.


This is a HUGE part of it. But even within our conservative scheme, there are opportunities that Baker is straight up missing.

I HIGHLY recommend all the "OBJ is a problem" folks watch Jake Burns' Baker breakdowns on the OBR Postgame twitch channel. The Chargers game is now up.


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I just want to clarify that I'm not critiquing why we lost the last game...although it's still pretty raw.

I'm focused on the other playoff-likely teams in the AFC and after watching so many of their games thus far into the season.

There is an active "Baker" thread right now. The intention here is to discuss an "everywhere else" thread.

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Sorry, I do understand. But I don't know how you can ask the question about what makes these teams different (in terms of performance right now) and us without including the single most important position on the field, where there is a disparity in performance.

Agree with others that our scheme is designed to pound teams into submission and spread the ball around in the passing game, but that gameplan should actually benefit us when we are trying to close out games, not hinder us. We should've tired defenses and trained them in certain looks...perfect opportunities to mix it up when they are most tired and prone to react more slowly.

The problem I see in this regard is not the scheme, but in the actual plays within the playbook used...we seem to be going to more conservative calls in the 4th quarter of tight games since Chiefs playoff game. Where are the quick PA calls when everyone knows we are trying to run the clock? Where is the Odell reverse from last years Dallas game? Stefanski is still being creative at other times. We've added this circle motion this year, but so far have done nothing with it. That flea-flicker screen? That was a play I've literally never seen in my life until this year. Not saying to use the particular play again, but our coach HAS the plays in his pocket, and we know he has the aggressiveness in his pocket, but with the game on the line, he reaches in and pulls out lint instead. If you ask me, that is the biggest difference between us and other teams...their coaching and QB execution gets better in end-game scenarios, and ours gets worse.


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There is a lot of great stuff packed into that post. For this post, I'm going to talk about offensive scheme - as best I can because I could get over-my-skis very easily.

Our offense does look completely disjointed when we need to hurry-up/two minute...like they simply don't have any confidence in what they are doing. To me it appears that we want to rely on our best position group (RB) to pull us through...but that isn't going to happen for precisely the reasons you laid out.

We have been in this "scheme" or system for 23 games now. The Ravens, Bills, & Chiefs "franchise" QBs have known only one head coach and one system. They have never been on a BAD team. Outside of the Bengals, the other teams have been good-or-better for awhile. Also, the other teams I listed - other than the Bengals & Chargers - have been in the same system with the same HC for much longer than 1.25 seasons. While KS is essentially a Godsend for us, maybe the league has figured out his penchant for being uber-conservative when the clock is winding down.

Something isn't quite right with the team...beyond my comparison of the skill positions on offense...that is evident.

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Thanks, I just call it as I see it. The way we run the ball makes play action passes across the middle "give me" plays because you'd freeze the LB's. When the safeties start cheating up it opens up the deep ball for any of the receivers. IMHO, this is basic football that the Browns lack right now due to Stafanski's scheme.

If the LB's don't fill on the play action then you start running until they cheat to fill. then you pass mid range until the safeties cheat. The Browns don't really need to complete the deep toss - it sends a message that the defense has to play honest. That's why I said that the run game could even become more explosive if the scheme is adjusted.

The key to this is to use Mayfield's talent too. Final thought: the top 3-rushing teams over the last 3-years has been BAL, CLE, and TEN. How many Super Bowls have they made it too? Top passing team 2020 season = TBB (Super Bowl Winner), 2019 season = KCC (Super Bowl Winner), 2018 season = TBB - Super Bowl Winner was NEP #9 in passing). The highest rated year for the Browns over the last 3-years was 2018 (Mayfield's 1st year) where they finished 20th. The Browns have been 24th in 2019 and 25th in 2020. Currently the Browns are 25th in passing for 2021 with a QB rating of 96.9. Baker has completed 66.9% of his passes but if you eliminate the Vikings game he's completing 73.2% of his throws. The scheme needs to be more pass involved.


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Originally Posted By: dnadawg
Sorry, I do understand. But I don't know how you can ask the question about what makes these teams different (in terms of performance right now) and us without including the single most important position on the field, where there is a disparity in performance.


I understand your point. I'm trying to get conversation and info on the rest of the situation.

Quote:
Agree with others that our scheme is designed to pound teams into submission and spread the ball around in the passing game, but that gameplan should actually benefit us when we are trying to close out games, not hinder us. We should've tired defenses and trained them in certain looks...perfect opportunities to mix it up when they are most tired and prone to react more slowly.


I agree...and we are not taking advantage of that other than continuing to pound the ball. That's all good when we are ahead...not at all when we need a quick score.

Quote:
The problem I see in this regard is not the scheme, but in the actual plays within the playbook used...we seem to be going to more conservative calls in the 4th quarter of tight games since Chiefs playoff game.


I'm not trying to be picky here...but I think most posters think of scheme and play-calling as essentially being the same thing.

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...we know he has the aggressiveness in his pocket, but with the game on the line, he reaches in and pulls out lint instead. If you ask me, that is the biggest difference between us and other teams...their coaching and QB execution gets better in end-game scenarios, and ours gets worse.


KS is aggressive as snot with the 4th down tries...yet goes into turtle-mode at the end of close games. It is odd to say the least. I'm not surprised the team can't execute end game scenarios...for reasons displayed in this thread.

Run..stuffed by 8-9 in the box.
Run again...stuffed again.
Pass on 3rd & long on our side of the field and run 5 yard patterns and pray for YAC.

It's frustrating...but not surprising to me.

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I said I am dissappointed in the production.

"He is not getting open or not getting found by Baker. Unless you have coaches tape and you can see all his routes I do not have that answer."


I am not blaming Odell. I want to see production there. Like I said I don't know who is at fault when it comes to Odell and Baker. I have seen Baker miss him when open. I have seen Odell drop balls. Baker has played. Odell not so much.

Odell came here with all the hype of expectation.

The reality is the production has not followed. He has had a record of injury. Not unlike Clowney.

Injury is random. I don't fault the player. But you do not produce when not on the field. The reality is what has Odell actually produced as a reciever for the Browns?

Baker does not get a free pass either. For whatever reason the production has not happened.

Poll? I have not seen a poll.

When you can provide evidence of all the open receivers Baker has missed. I will happy to look at it and comment. Not just one play of guy open.

No quarterbacks are perfect. I see Allen, Mahomes, and Rodgers make bone head plays and miss open guys.

Baker is good enough to win with. No, he is not elite at this stage. He is a team leader.

Listen to any player on the team when Baker's name is mentioned.

Watch Building the Browns. Listen to interviews with Bitonio, Chubb, Myles, AVP, KS, and others.

The title of the thread is "what they have and we don't."

The answer is nothing? We have lost two close games to top contenders in September and October.

Baker, Odell and the rest have the remaining schedule in front of them. They will answer the bell or not.

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Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater
We have everything you say we don't have, and then we have what Diam said.

Our TE's are as good or better than any team you want to name, except Kelce as an individual TE because he's just on a different level. There's only one, so you cannot lament that one.

Duo.... this isn't Saturday Morning Cartoons, and having a marketing Dynamic Duo doesn't do anything for you... except merchandising. Pick two that you like.. Baker & Chubb, Chubb & Hunt, Bake & Landry, Bake & Odell, Landry & Hunt, Njoku & Chubb. The difference is that on teams that have that, they run their ENTIRE offense through those duo's because without those duo's they have next to nothing. Our offense runs through ALL of them.... which take us to what Diam said.


I don't think our TE group stacks up at all with several teams. We don't have a Andrews...Waller...Kelce (you mentioned) or even Ozumoah (Bengals). We have (3) good players...but no team has to scheme/plan for our TEs.

The teams that don't have the "big play" TE have more than (1) WR that has to be accounted-for. Chargers, Steelers & even the Bengals (if you discount Ozumoah).

I'm not into the marketing duos thing either...but look at the choices you suggested and tell me which duo is scaring DCs at the end of games to bust a big play for a score? We might bust one...but it's not been a TE or WR that gets open and/or gets behind a defense. We gave up two of those busted plays to the same WR in one game. Knox (TE) had one for the Bills. Burrow chucks up ducks all the time and Chase runs under that "punt" for a catch.

I agree that we have good players and that we are likely fine as we move forward this year...but we don't have the dynamic playmakers that we are credited for having...or the playmakers that I've seen on other AFC teams through week 5 this year.

P.S. To you and Diam and others. I recognize that we are very banged up...I think the refs completely hosed us in a game we should/could/would have won...but I'm not looking for an annex "What I saw" thread here.

To counter my own points...how mediocre can our TE/WR groups really be when a beat up Browns team took on the Chargers AND the refs (on the road) and still put up 42 points and were in the game through the end?

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U guys are Coco Puffs bro …

- Kev did not go into a shell at the end of the KC game … it’s just wrong to say that …

I would agree on the last drive this week … those play calls the last drive were atrocious … I don’t understand why he did that and his reasoning was complete and utter BS …. more on that when tabber makes his what i saw thread … and Kev had called a great game up til that point …

Anyone saying Kev has taken the gunslinger out of Bake isn’t paying attention or has no clue what there watching …. NONE … Rish and lead are who they are … I feel sorry for Rish’s dog after we lose and i really hope lead doesn’t always see the negative in everything in life like he does with this team …. the rest are just looking for something to hang there hats on cause this last lost stung …

- last week Bake missed wide open receivers down field ALL GAME LONG … the lack of down field plays was on Bake … IMO because he was pressured … all QB’s struggle under pressure but Bake is HORRIFIC under pressure cause his mechanics go out the window …

- this week I thought Kev had a great game plan and called a great game while at the same time doing 4 REALLY STUPID THINGS … we put up 42 points and some of these dolts are reading way to much into the fact Bake hardly went down field in ONE GAME where we didn’t have our starting LT and we pounded the crap out of them on the ground … add in the bolts suck against the run and are very good against the pass with a very good pass rush …

Seems logical to me we’d run the crap out of the ball and call pass plays that get the ball out of Bake’s hand quickly … i believe we should have taken more shots downfield off of play action but to say Kev has taken the gunslinger out of Bake is just dumb on a good day …

Of course Kev wants Bake to be careful with the ball, what coach doesn’t, its called common sense but i highly doubt Kev’s berating him after every dangerous throw and telling him not to take any chances … DOLTS!

The last half of last year Bake and us were ultra successful … take a look at Bakes Int/TD ratio dolts, and we didn’t here a peep about Kev turning Bake into a game manager … now we lose 2 games and Kev’s hurting Bake … what a CROCK OF CRAP!




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Take it any way you wish.

How about in football threads you remove your

"trump trump trump" leave in the Politicus

all good after that

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I'm mostly with you on the "Baker has been neutered" idea...but I'm not completely discounting that theory either.

It's good to see you back on here...but I don't want this thread to become a Gameday spin-off. But...the scheme/play-calling appeared to match the opponent and the injuries we were dealing with...no doubt...but we saw the end-of-game turtle show against the Vikings as well. Then again on Sunday.

We have a great OLine when they aren't beat to snot. We have some really good TEs and WRs (when the WRs are not dinged up)...but there is little doubt in my eyes that we lack the big-play or quick-strike capability that other teams in the AFC can rely on.

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Sorry about that Willie … not really back just venting at some of the BS on here … I’m as frustrated as everyone else, I’m just venting in a different direction … wink

I’ll wait for tabber thread to get the rest off my chest my friend … thumbsup




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Quote:
I’ve come around on baker being the guy…but it’s starting to become clear why Berry didn’t extend baker yet. Maybe we don’t need baker to be those guys. He just needs to manage the game. That’s fine.

But….that’s not what you draft a #1 overall pick for, or in the 1st anywhere. You draft that guy because he can carry your team to a W when everything else goes south.

I’m a bit ticked at stefanski with some of his play calling…..and then I realize that he has about as much confidence as Shanahan does in jimmy G, which is minimum. This is a QB driven league. And baker this season just isn’t hitting guys who are running wide open.

I'm going to disagree that it's about confidence. We have a run dominant team in a pass happy league. We built an offense that is based on ball control and 12 play drives in a quick strike league.

We have a QB who looked great in his rookie season with comparisons to Brett Favre who has evolved into a scheme and is being coached to play like Trent Dilfer.

We have a defense that requires us to play with minimal margin for error because our defense doesn't make plays. We have only forced 4 turnovers in 5 games, that's tied for 23rd in the NFL.. by contrast, the Bills have forced 15 turnovers... think that helps Josh Allen? Our offense has only turned it over 4 times (none since week 2), which is tied for 2nd in the NFL but we are still a +0 because we don't force any turnovers.

We have gone for it on 4th down more than any other team in the NFL but are in the bottom half in success at below 50% and I blame a ton of that on the playcalling (not just on 4th down but a lot on the 3rd down calls that preceded it)...

I made this analogy before but in end of game situations, when we need to throw and be aggressive down the field, we look like Georgia Tech or Navy (lost)... teams that don't practice it, it's not part of the game plan, it's not their identity... we have the personnel to do it, it's just not us, and we can't just turn it on when we want to.


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I have only been a supporter of the Browns and the NFL a short time so I don’t have the knowledge and experience you guys have but anyway, here is my thoughts.

In Q2 against the Chargers we looked great. Full of confidence and we played with a variety of combinations and schemes. Our D was fired up and at that point I thought we were going to win this game quite easily.

When we started the second half something had happened. Baker started to become a little bit nervous. KS made some strange play calls when we had the ball but the biggest change of quality was the decline of our D line.

It was like the whole team lost their confidence. Nothing happened when we had the ball except a few runs and passes that was ok. Joe Woods defense was none existing. Like eleven ghosts.

Kevin Stefanski must take the majority of the blame for this. No other way around. Woods must also think long and hard what he’s doing and why everything collapsed in the end. That’s not acceptable.

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If your honest, you would have to admit that if Brady, Bress, Rodgers, Prescott, Roethlisberger, Mahomes, Wilson, or even Herbert getting the ball in the last 2-minutes is a bonafide threat to score.


I had that feeling when we got the ball with 1:30 remaining. The lump in the throat feeling that we're not one of those teams that will march it down the field and win the game in the final moment. When that drive started, I specifically remembered a game in the late 70's where Joe Thiesman did it to us...we gave him the ball with a minute something left and he methodically took it down the field to a game winning score. You knew without much doubt it was coming. There are teams you just know will do it before it happens. We're not one of those, yet anyway.


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Quote:
When we started the second half something had happened. Baker started to become a little bit nervous. KS made some strange play calls when we had the ball but the biggest change of quality was the decline of our D line.

I'm going to disagree with this (sort of).. the Browns took a 7 point lead to halftime and scored 21 points in the second half.. that should be enough to win... every single time.

Baker looked just fine through most of the 2nd half.. until crunch time when we absolutely needed a couple first downs, then we ran right into a defense that was stacked on that side, did a straight drop back throw 25 yards downfield, then a draw on 3rd and 7.. most bizarre serious of play calls I've seen based on what we actually needed to accomplish, which was just to get a couple first downs.

I also saw somebody in a different thread comment that our defense got tired.. we dominated time of possession the entire game. Heck even when the Chargers scored it was usually in under 2 minutes. Our defense was banged up but no way should they have been tired.


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DIAM, you didn't reply to me, so I don't know if you are including me as a CocoPuff (I'm a Lucky Charms guy myself), but I really think you are wrong here, and it isn't based on outcome.

Quote:
Kev did not go into a shell at the end of the KC game … it’s just wrong to say that …


Which game? Playoffs he definitely did. Go rewatch that drive at 4-5 min and tell me those are typical stefanski aggressiveness. And KC2021, just as CHargers game, he was forced OUT of his shell on the final drive becuase we needed TDs to win. But the preceding potential closeout drives he sure did. 3 games isn't the end of the world, but being the LAST 3 big games, it matters.
1. conservative calls on penultimate drive lead to punt
2. opponent marches down field and takes lead
3. desperation drive brings back some aggressiveness, but execution fails.
Now, to be fair, 1. is on Stefanski, 2. is on Woods/defense, and 3. is on offense, but it is still a pattern that can be avoided with stefanski doing better.

Quote:
Anyone saying Kev has taken the gunslinger out of Bake isn’t paying attention or has no clue what there watching …. NONE …


Because you say so? I would ask you to watch the all 22 breakdowns...you know football better than me, so if you are saying that, I can only imagine you have not seen the tape. Baker is NOT pulling the trigger on open throws. In some cases, he's off in his timing...waiting split second longer would change his reads. In other cases, he's staring right at it and just won't trust his eyes. You cannot really say with 100% certainty that isn't because Stefanski has hammered in the NO TOs so strongly. What is the alternative? Baker is scared? That does not seem nearly as likely. I think it is most likely that the pendulum of protecting the football vs. making tight window/anticipatory throws has swung too far the opposite way. Stefanski has rightly encouraged Baker to take some of those unnecessary risks out of his game. Now he needs to help Baker know when to come back to use that skillset.

Quote:
e put up 42 points and some of these dolts are reading way to much into the fact Bake hardly went down field in ONE GAME where we didn’t have our starting LT and we pounded the crap out of them on the ground … add in the bolts suck against the run and are very good against the pass with a very good pass rush …


That's fine and dandy to point to Bosa and our backup tackles, but they played really well. Baker had little pressure on him. Similarly, people blaming our injured CBs is off base. THey played winning football overall, with the safeties (Delpit) crapping the bed.


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well, the Raiders don't have a Head coach. So, there is that...


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Which is the difference between a potential Championship team and just a good team. You can slice it any way you want but being 25th in passing yardage is not a Championship caliber team. This is what I meant when I say the Browns have changed Mayfield from a gunslinger to a game manager. The Browns are not using the talent that Baker brought to the team coming from Oklahoma and improving on the areas that he was weak in. Instead they have created a run first scheme with a game manager QB in a passing league. Mayfield is not the only casualty with this scheme. I think it's disheartening to go out and get 3 Pro Bowl receivers (OBJ 9 receptions in 3 games, Landry 6 receptions in 2 games, and Hooper 12 receptions in 5 games) and not use that talent. I mean really - 42 points scored and the Browns only target OBJ 3 times the entire game and Hooper only 1 target?

If you want another stat that proves my point, the Ravens have the 6th best passing offense through 5 weeks. Jackson is throwing for 61.8 more yards per game than the Browns. To say the Browns have not taken the gunslinger mentality away from Baker is just hog wash. Our Pro Bowl receivers are not getting the ball, we're only averaging 230.0 yds per game passing, and though we lead the league in rushing - our main competition in the division BAL is 4th in rushing to go with their 6th rated passing. The scheme must be adjusted.


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To counter my own points...how mediocre can our TE/WR groups really be when a beat up Browns team took on the Chargers AND the refs (on the road) and still put up 42 points and were in the game through the end?


e.g. Is the problem that we don't have them, or is it perception and more a factor of us not getting the media hype and love?

Every one of our TEs can damage a defense, and if we primarily only went to one of them and did that with like 60% of our passing plays, the hype and hoopla would follow.

Perhaps we spread it around to a fault; or perhaps that is our strength? In the end, we do not need players like that because, as you noted, we went on the road to a team like the Chargers and put up 42. The offense is fine; we just lack a media darling.

What we NEED is to figure out how to get rid of the rough idling our engine seems to undergo. When we need to just get a few first downs and keep the clock burning, why is it we seem to call three straight pass plays, none of which try to get a 1st and most are deep shots to try to get a homerun? At the end of games, when we're trying to keep a lead, we are absolutely, 100% UNABLE to execute and just grind out a drive. These guys just CAN'T do it. That's our entire problem, and THAT is what we lack.... in addition to the defense being the sort that, when it's 3rd & 14 and they need 15 yards, we give them 22.

As steve said, we cannot close teams and games out, and that is complete aside from the additional issues with Refs and injuries.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Maybe Van Pelt should call plays in the fourth or switch every other series. AFTER we lose, we seem crystal clear about regrets, what was wrong, what should have been done instead, repeatedly. We are losing WON games. Our offense handed leads to the D repeatedly. Improvement demands some sideline adjustments. MO.


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