DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Biden's Wildly Unconstitutional Vaccine Mandate

I can agree that we should always question anything the government does in regards to expanding its power. That should always be questioned 100%. The issue being, and both parties do it, is that no one questions it unless it's the "other guys" doing it. Trump used executive orders nonstop to push through anything and everything he wanted. And Republicans saw no issue. Now Biden is doing it as well, and Republicans have a problem, and Democrats did the opposite for both as well.

Who are these influential quack politicians who are championing the antivax?

Did he? I don't really recall that but I haven't listened to much of anything he's been saying at his rallies since he left office.

It's GIRL Named Tom.

Yet, when was the last time you heard of someone having Polio....

Ha,, yes it is,, still Congrats,., they are moving on and I think they have a shot.

When was the last time you heard of the flu shot preventing the flu for the rest of your life?

So the fact you may need boosters along the way changes the fact that 90% pf those being hospitalized and dying are unvaccinated?

Late 1970s... what's your point? Is it that since they got it right at some point in the past we should never question them in the future?

It seems they've gotten it right a lot of times.

State-by-State: Vaccinations Required for Public School Kindergarten

https://vaccines.procon.org/state-by-state-vaccinations-required-for-public-school-kindergarten/

With 90% of those being hospitalized and dying among the unvaccinated and over 434 million doses administered in the U.S., at what point is it no longer logical to question it?

Pit, I've been vaccinated since spring, in fact I'm due for a booster around Thanksgiving and I will almost certainly get it. I think it was logical to get vaccinated a long time ago.

I also think the republican party really screwed the pooch in their approach to this and most of what we are seeing should be blamed on the leadership of the republican party. There is a study out there, but I can't immediately find the link, that studied the impact of political influence on a persons willingness to get vaccinated and it was a very high correlation that as more republican leaders have started endorsing vaccination, more republicans are getting vaccinated.. but they dug themselves such a hole with their double talk of doing one thing but saying another, that it will take some time to recover. In fact, I would say that as of today, there are far more of these republicans who won't get vaccinated because they are pushing back against the mandate than they are the vaccination itself. To put it bluntly, they are like kids who will just flat out refuse to do what they are told to do, even if they know it's good for them.

Wasn't it the Left who coined the phrase, "My Body My Choice?"

Why does that only apply to abortion?

Oh you have a choice. As long as you are willing to pay the consequences for that choice.

I think the only place we disagree is when it comes to the mandates. There was a concerted effort for months to encourage people to get the vaccine. The number of people getting the vaccine had slowed to a crawl for the very political reasons you stated. Once every other option had been exhausted, only then did the option of mandated vaccines being imposed appear to be the only option left. Of course you are correct that it has now become a rallying point for anti vaxxers but that in no way explains that they weren't and had no intention of getting the vaccine before mandates.

I wouldn't say it slowed to a crawl, there was the initial surge once the vaccine became available in large quantities, then once the surge was over it has continued to rise fairly steadily. As I said, could have been a steeper curve had republicans not created so much confusion and anxiety among so many people. Which relates to my other position, republicans are fighting hard against mandates when, had they not acted the way they did from winter 2020 through spring of 2021, mandates might have never been necessary. They essentially created an issue that they could then blame on democrats.

As of June 2021, yes, vaccines had slowed to a crawl.

Vaccination in America Might Have Only One Tragic Path Forward

COVID-19 vaccination rates have fallen off a cliff. Will it take a deadly summer surge to change things?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/america-covid-19-vaccine-decline/619474/

The same logic works in reverse, too.

Yes it does, currently.

No it doesn't.. because as of January 4, vaccines will be pretty much mandated if you want to have a job and function in society and abortion will still be legal.

jc

So many delicious antivaxxer tears... my cup runneth over.

And the consequences of no mandated vaccines seems to be over 500 Americans dying every day. And that number climbs and decreases seemingly at will. At some point people need to realize when they object to the vaccine they are supporting Americans continuing to die at a far higher rate than need be. With winter approaching, far more travel and indoor activities will be conducted. If the past is any indication, that will not play well for the daily death count.

Which country would you like to emulate Pit? Which first world country has done it right in their vaccine mandate?

At this point I wish Biden's admin would just stop pushing the vaccines altogether. Yep, I'm rooting for Darwin to prevail.

So you reply to a question and a statement with a question? I had no idea that's how a debate was supposed to work? But let's use a little context here. People say we are leaders in the world.That we set the standards in human rights, innovation and are the leading military power. Now you question why we shouldn't be the leader in setting the standard for minimizing covid deaths?

What we know is 90% of those hospitalized and dying of covid are unvaccinated. By extension we also know that the more people that are vaccinated equals less people dying. And your only reply seems to be, "Yeah, but who else has shown it works?"

We live in a nation that is supposed to be a world leader. Other nations are supposed to emulate the example we set. We're not supposed to be emulating them.

You didn't ask me a question. You made a statement, I responded with a question asking for more information.. yes, that is how informal debate is supposed to work. I just wanted to know if there was a country out there that you think we should emulate that is getting it right.

That's weird because when the virus was really raging, "people" also kept pointing to other countries with better results and saying, "Why don't we do it like they are?" The left routinely cherry picked whichever country was having the most success at the time to compare us to, then when that country would have a surge, they would move on to another country that was having success.. and the right just kept making excuses as to why nothing these other countries were doing would work here. Because politics>solutions

Yes, "a" world leader... not "the" world leader.... This is the kind of arrogance about American exceptionalism that has gotten us into trouble for many decades, us thinking we are better and smarter than everybody else and the rest of the world should be listening to us and following us instead of the other way around.. and that the problems of the world would go away if only everybody acted and thought like us.... There are smart people all over the world and other countries/cultures have solved many problems that we can't seem to solve here because of our arrogance to do everything "our way" instead of adopting and adapting a plan that has proven to work elsewhere.

The number 1 rule of leadership in the business world is to keep your door and your ears open because good ideas come from everywhere, from the factory floor, from the janitor, from the junior accountant, from the sales person in the field.. doesn't matter. In fact the best ideas come from the people who deal with the day to day things you don't deal with every day. The number 1 way to fail as a leader is to think you have all the best ideas and they should be unilaterally imposed on everybody else... (aka... Donald Trump)

When you ask the guy next door to defend you in a fight and he agrees to, you owe him something from that day forward.

Otherwise, defend yourself!

So your summation is we shouldn't advance the use of covid vaccines by any means necessary which would greatly reduce American deaths because as of yet nobody else has? You do realize that other nations are employing covid mandates now and that none of them really wanted to do this, including us, until it was the only option left? Once again it seems you keep trying to throw up roadblocks and excuses why we shouldn't take any measures necessary to reduce the number of Americans dying of covid.

Question for you Pit, just interested in your opinion, a few facts first...

Covid is a highly contagious airborne virus.

Many people are not vaccinated.

Vaccination effectiveness is waning to the point of many estimates saying that they are less than 50% effective in most of the population.


If there is some great division, where many Americans are compassionate and the rest are scumbags...

Why isn't anyone wearing masks??

Are you??

Everywhere I go... sporting events, shopping, a recent concert... there is less than 1% wearing masks.

Isn't it safe to say, given the facts stated above, that the other 99% are scumbags that don't care for their fellow Americans??

1. Apologies, because I keep screwing up the quote function with this new setup.

2. I think our points are ships passing. You are correct in terms of the letter of the law. Although it has nothing really to do with this thread, I am not pro choice, but I just wanted to cite the hypocrisy of either side utilizing my body my choice to their own advantage. My point is that on one hand, you have people saying “My body my choice” while being in favor of the vaccine mandate. On the other hand, you have people saying “we must protect the constitutional rights of the unborn” while railing (in some cases emphatically) against the vaccine mandates. So, as far as I’m concerned, the whole “my body, my choice” mantra is a weak-minded, hypocritical battle standard when considering so much double speak.

3. When it comes to me, personally, I am not in favor of mandating people be given vaccines no matter what, but if your company says you have to pay more for your health insurance without getting the vaccine, or places say that you have to wear a mask because you’re not vaccinated, quit whining about it. I’m done with it.

Sorry for anyone who thinks I’m being terse. It’s been a long week.

Getting vaccinated is uber American.

If we are talking about saving lives.

j/c:

Federal court UPHOLDS decision to halt Biden's federal vaccine mandate after blasting edict as 'staggeringly overbroad'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...n-COVID-19-vaccine-mandate.html#comments

I'm wondering where this court was when they allow employers to fire somebody if they catch them smoking a cigarette?

The difference on the choice matter boils down to not just personal choice, but the rights of the unborn. A vaccine as an example can't be given rights where it can be argued a unborn human should have rights.

Not to take the discussion down a different road, but that is where at the least an argument can be made.

Was it a wildly unconstitutional mandate for Polio? How about Small Pox?

https://www.governing.com/now/the-long-history-of-mandated-vaccines-in-the-united-states

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/new...how-people-reacted-then-and-now/2984174/

I guess that since it wasn't considered wildly or even mildly unconstitutional in the past, It must be because Biden did it this time...

And we all know, Trumpians don't like anything that doesn't make Trump look good...

The question is where one’s constitutional rights ends vs where another’s begins. The same question that Jacobsen directly dealt with.

First, you seem to be confusing the fact that vaccinated people getting Covid is even the issue here. That's not the issue. The issue is American deaths and hospitalizations. The vast majority of all Covid deaths are the unvaccinated. That's the point. Making sure the least number of Americans die and have long term covid symptoms is the goal here. If you would like to discuss that issue I would be happy to.

Yes, any time I go into a crowded, enclosed environment I wear a mask. When I go somewhere like Kroger I see half or more of all the customers wearing mask. Outdoor events and non crowded situations I often times don't.

While it's not something I condone, I can see how the vaccinated are just getting tired of trying to continue to protect the unvaccinated. The unvaccinated have been being told for over a year and shown how dangerous it is to be unvaccinated. Their ignorance means the rest of us have to pay for it. How much longer do you think the vaccinated should continue to pay the price for that? So I think it's gotten to the point many vaccinated Americans give a damn is busted.

I also don't think most Americans, even many vaccinated Americans understand the entire picture here. While I still wear a mask in crowded indoor circumstances, it's most certainly not to help protect the unvaccinated. When it comes to them my give a damn is busted too. My wife and I wear one to help protect the immunocompromised. There are many conditions that prevent many people, through no fault of their own, to have an immune system deficiency which makes it very hard for their systems to build up an immunity to things. And often times when they do get some build up against Covid from the vaccines, it's short lived. And for some the vaccine does not help.

Just a couple of conditions are cancer patients and as well as organ and transplant patients. There are certainly many other conditions that make you far more prone to contracting covid and greatly increase the risk of severe symptoms. Those are the people I am trying to help protect at this juncture.

Federal appeals court calls Biden vaccine mandate ‘fatally flawed’ and ‘staggeringly overbroad’

-The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit, in an opinion issued Friday evening, reaffirmed its decision to press pause on the implementation of the Biden vaccine requirements.

-The court criticized the requirements as “a one-size-fits-all sledgehammer that makes hardly any attempt to account for differences in workplaces (and workers).”

-The Biden administration had asked the court to lift the pause, warning that delaying implementation “would likely cost dozens or even hundreds of lives per day” as the virus spreads.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/13/fed...-flawed-and-staggeringly-overbroad-.html

That borders legislating from the bench.

It will just move up to a higher court as these things usually do.

Let's give government unlimited power, I'm sure that will end well.

Yeah, mmmm, only that's not what is happening here. Not even close. Do you honestly believe that when 90% of those dying are unvaccinated, taking every possible measure you can to stop Americans from dying is some unlimited power? I do however understand that there are a certain percentage of people who take everything our government does as some kind of way to undermine their freedumbs. If there weren't numerous mandated vaccines already required for children to even go to school, which is a mandate that every child be vaccinated from several diseases. I could see why you might, no matter how desperate of an attempt it would be, see this as government overreach. But that's not the case. It's just one more vaccine added to the list like every other vaccine that's saved countless American lives.

"They're trying to stop Muricans from dying! We gotta stop um!"

That's how this sounds to thinking people.