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mgh888 #1953740 06/28/22 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by mgh888
We'd have been better off with a #1 pick and Baker.

I agree with this bit 100%.


Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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Me also. I wasn't crazy about the deal when I first heard about it because of the situation with DW and all the compensation. I said this was going to blow up in our faces and unfortunately it's getting to look more and more like it.

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Originally Posted by Steubenvillian
All this talk about "due diligence", "worst trade" "blown deal" is all a bunch of crap to me. Watson, who is a top five QB without a doubt, probably will get suspended. Who knows for how long? But what most of the people bashing the signing overlook, is that after the suspension, even if it is year long, the Browns have one of the best QBs in the NFL locked up for years.

Also, if Brisset has to play, many forget that he went 6-4 with the Colts, until he was injured.

It will suck if he gets a full year, but I doubt it will be that long. But when this is over, we will have the best QB to wear a Browns uniform since Kosar.

two things:

1. I don't think I've heard or read anyone saying that Watson isn't a top QB....I ask, what good is a Top QB if he can't play? A $230 million QB that can't play?

2. Brisset is 14-23 as a starter...


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The Browns reportedly said they interviewed three of the female attorneys working under Rusty Hardin, Watson's defense attorney, while they did their own research into the accusations against him. Per Lloyd, those meetings "went a long way toward getting the Haslams comfortable with moving forward and pursuing a trade for Watson."

The Browns did their "homework" launching an "extensive investigation" into Watson's conduct concerning his off the field conduct..details of the Browns investigation are just beginning to leak out.

Reading the above information, what were the Browns expecting to gain by interviewing 3 female lawyers who were working for Rusty Hardin, Watson's attorney..?

I have no doubt that these 3 female lawyers told the Browns investigating team what a great guy Deshaun Watson is and how terrible these woman were for accusing Watson of sexual misconduct. But, did these 3 lawyers say anything about the private room that the Texans arranged for Watson for his private massage sessions..?

I guess by questioning 3 unnamed 'female' lawyers from Rusty Hardin's own office, IT WOULD provide the Browns with some favorable optics to support the Browns desire to sign Watson. Just what was the goal of the Browns investigation..? Did the Browns investigation turn up the information about Watson's conduct at The Houstonian Hotel, Club & Spa, the luxury hotel that the Texans secured for Watson for his massage sessions ? Did the Browns investigation question the Texans about what they knew, concerning Watson's conduct at The Historian..?

IMO, it's beginning to look like the Browns investigation was an "amateurish shame" in an attempt to justify Haslam's desire to do whatever it took to make Watson the New Face of the Cleveland Browns.


Last edited by mac; 06/28/22 09:06 AM.



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mac #1953771 06/28/22 09:16 AM
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mac, you asked for links to prove a statement I made. I provided three links. There are more to support my claims. I then asked you to provide proof of your claims. I am still waiting for you to respond.

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Regarding whether or not I would approve of the Watson trade again. I say yes. We don't know the length of the suspension yet. Even if it for a year, I would still do the trade because Watson could be our starting qb for another decade. Finding a top tier qb is so difficult. Watson would give us hope of a brighter future. Baker did not.

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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by mgh888
Well based on the fact I'm going to have a though or impossible time cheering for him personally... No.

Based on the team being better and putting aside protestations about his character... A ban of 8 games or less, I think the Browns made a move that will make sense.

More than a 10 game ban and its a bad trade. Probably a wasted year. Even if JB can be as good as injured Baker or a bit better, we'd have been better off with a #1 pick and Baker.

Jmo


Maybe so, but that is also a little short sighted.

Winning the Super Bowl or a deep playoff run with Brissett would be great for this year, but that would make this a bad trade.

Think about it.

I know what the team looks like this year. I think Baker would be good enough to make a deep playoff run. I don't know what the team looks like next year - and even assuming DW starts all 17 games of the regular season, it will be a ridiculous period of time between starts for Watson in the NFL. He was a top 5 QB when he was playing - he won't have played for 2+ years. We've already seen some DW fans walk back expectations about how phenomenal Watson will be. So... for me, wasting this year, 3 first rounders would be very much a long term waste/gamble that I would not make.


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
mac, you asked for links to prove a statement I made. I provided three links. There are more to support my claims. I then asked you to provide proof of your claims. I am still waiting for you to respond.

vers...below is the conversation in question...

Quote
Vers Quote: There were multiple teams willing to pay a ton for Watson.


mac's response to vers:

I guess you are privy to sources and information that the rest of us don't have..! Maybe you can cite some sources to back up your claim above..? I really would like to know what other teams were offering Watson and maybe you can share those articles with the rest of the board members...just how much did those multiple teams offer Watson ?

vers...I think if you would take the time to read what I was questioning, you would clearly know that was question HOW MUCH the other teams were willing to pay Watson.

You claimed other teams were willing to pay Watson "A TON"...I wanted to know much those 'multiple teams' were offering Watson.




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mac #1953786 06/28/22 10:04 AM
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I figured you would either ignore it or spin it. Multiple teams were interested in Watson. Four teams agreed to the Texans demands to receive three first round picks plus more for Watson. That is a ton to pay by anyone's definition.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I figured you would either ignore it or spin it. Multiple teams were interested in Watson. Four teams agreed to the Texans demands to receive three first round picks plus more for Watson. That is a ton to pay by anyone's definition.

I think this is right. I also think many other teams expressed interest. The problem is none of that matters, it was only the Browns that actually acquired DW.

There might have been 30 other teams willing to draft Ryan Leaf. But only one did. He's their draft bust and k owing other teams would have picked him doesn't lesson the sting.


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mgh888 #1953794 06/28/22 10:12 AM
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I'll agree w/that. I just have not agreed w/mac implying it was only the Browns who would be dumb enough to make that trade. I know he doesn't like our FO or Haslam and that is his right, but no one will ever convince me that our FO is stupid and didn't think about all the ramifications of what they were about to do.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I figured you would either ignore it or spin it. Multiple teams were interested in Watson. Four teams agreed to the Texans demands to receive three first round picks plus more for Watson. That is a ton to pay by anyone's definition.

vers...now hold it dude...I didn't spin a damn thing and you know it..

A grade school student could understand what I was questioning if they read my post. But in your excitement, you didn't take the time to read and comprehend what I wrote and now you refuse to admit, YOU SCREWED UP..!




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FATE #1953806 06/28/22 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by FATE
Yeah, I forgot to include the disclaimer, based on his comment -- "even if it is year long" as part of the decision. So based on a year-long suspension, would anyone do this deal?

One could argue that a year-long ban isn't the worst possible outcome (speaking pragmatically in-terms of Browns gameday roster). If he gets banned for a year, then his contract goes in limbo, and that $1mill year occurs next year. It's a small consolation when you're putting another year on everyone else, but it's a consolation nonetheless.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
That still doesn't mean other teams weren't in the mix.

Why are we bickering about this? Just because Mac questions it? Other teams were seeking Watsons services. Just because we ended up getting him doesn't mean other's weren't trying.

I know you are smart enough to know that in situations like this the high bid usually wins, so it's a little underhanded to say we were the only ones willing to pay what we did.

It's not that difficult to understand. The term "serious inquiries" about watson is the sticking point. We keep hearing some BS about how "13 teams made serious inquiries". If you didn't even get to the point where you made an offer to sign a player, you weren't serious about trying to get him. Making a call about what the asking price is isn't a "serious inquiry". I hope that helps.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Regarding whether or not I would approve of the Watson trade again. I say yes. We don't know the length of the suspension yet. Even if it for a year, I would still do the trade because Watson could be our starting qb for another decade. Finding a top tier qb is so difficult. Watson would give us hope of a brighter future. Baker did not.


And morals be damned.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Multiple teams were interested in Watson.

Multiple teams made inquiries. At least it seems you're beginning to understand that if they didn't bother to make an offer they didn't have "serious interest". And I wonder if those who inquired to begin with chose to bow out because of the baggage associated with him?


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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mac #1953821 06/28/22 12:17 PM
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BS! I knew you would not own up.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
BS! I knew you would not own up.

vers...let me walk you through the conversation..slowly...

My original post...
Quote
...just how much did those multiple teams offer Watson ? vers...I guess you are privy to sources and information that the rest of us don't have..! Maybe you can cite some sources to back up your claim above..?I really would like to know what other teams were offering Watson and maybe you can share those articles with the rest of the board members...just how much did those multiple teams offer Watson


vers...your response to my post above
...
Quote
I have posted articles multiple times. There were originally 13 teams interested. I posted the article in the Tailgate forum after another poster asked for a link. I also know that Indy was immediately rejected by Houston because they are in the same division. There said to be six teams that had serious interest. In the end, four teams agreed to the Texans' trade demands. That is "multiple" no matter how you look at it. I'm sure you will spin away, though.


vers...you clearly failed to comprehend the subject matter I was discussing...just "how much" did those multiple teams offer Watson...

...and you went off on "your own subject" about the other teams that inquired about Watson.

Clearly you failed to grasp the subject matter I was discussing in my post and went off in a different direction...




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mac #1953869 06/28/22 02:08 PM
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Here was my initial comment that you challenged:


Quote
I believe the Browns did do their homework. I do not believe the Browns are too stupid to not do their homework. We have a ton of bright guys in the FO. There were multiple teams willing to pay a ton for Watson. It's not like the Browns were the lone team.

Again, five teams {Indy was eliminated because they are in the same division as Houston} agreed to pay a ton for Watson. I proved that my comment is true. You can spin it by acting like Pit and trying to change my intent, but that is what I initially said. Get your last word in, but don't you dare ask me for a link again.

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You just can't keep my name out of your mouth even though you claim you blocked me. lol

How many links would you like? I've provided several over the course of these conversations showing watson demanded a trade because he didn't get a say in helping pick the new HC. You just don't like hearing it and claim only the articles you provide could possibly be true. Even though he demanded that trade at exactly the time the new HC was named.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Actually, I think you are both wrong. Watson had a "no trade clause" in his contract. No trade could have been completed without the consent of Watson and an agreement by the Texans. IND was immediately eliminated because the Texans wouldn't trade within the division. Originally, if my memory is right, the Jets and Miami were the destinations of choice by Watson. The Jets balked at the price of 3-first round picks and Miami bowed out due to the baggage Watson had and required they be settled. If you remember, Watson was hell bent on see all the cases through to "clear his name."

To say that there were 13 teams that had serious interest about Watson is stretching the truth because Watson never agreed to play for 13 select teams so it would have been a quest of futility. There were all kinds of different teams that were being thrown around as possible landing spots during the so called second round, Watson gave a list of four places that he would agree to go that was approved by the Texans. That list eventually came down to 4-teams only which were the Browns, Carolina, Atlanta and Saints. They were the only teams that agreed to the Texans asking price and be approved by Watson.

It was a double edge sword in the sweeps for Watson. The team had to meet the Texans demand for compensation and have as an approved landing spot by Watson. Saying a team is interested but wouldn't agree to the steep terms by the Texans is not a real interested team. To say they offered without Watson's approval is also a stretch as a having serious interest.

If you both remember, numerous teams were thought to be contenders but were unwilling to meet the Texans compensation demands. IMHO, saying a team showed serious interest that wouldn't meet the compensation demands or have approval from Watson as a landing spot is a serious stretch.


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Here was my initial comment that you challenged:


Quote
I believe the Browns did do their homework. I do not believe the Browns are too stupid to not do their homework. We have a ton of bright guys in the FO. There were multiple teams willing to pay a ton for Watson. It's not like the Browns were the lone team.


vers...I clearly quoted the sentence YOU WROTE and I was responding to. Here it is just below... let me refresh your memory..

Quote
There were multiple teams willing to pay a ton for Watson.


So now you go adding to the quote I was responding to in an effort to spin your way out of the error you made when responding. You want to keep going, I can do that...up to you..!




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And Miami backed out because watson couldn't settle all 22, at the time, lawsuits. Which provides some evidence that teams weren't willing to take on the unsettled baggage watson brought to the table.

Texans and Dolphins have Deshaun Watson deal in place – with one big problem

https://nypost.com/2021/10/27/deshaun-watson-trade-to-miami-in-place-with-one-big-catch/


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Okay mac, you win. You are pulling a Pit and changing my words around to fit your agenda by stating something else completely.

So, I will concede and say that I was wrong for saying because you are not going to relent.

Quote
There were multiple teams willing to pay a ton for Watson. It's not like the Browns were the lone team.


rolleyes

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
And Miami backed out because watson couldn't settle all 22, at the time, lawsuits. Which provides some evidence that teams weren't willing to take on the unsettled baggage watson brought to the table.

Texans and Dolphins have Deshaun Watson deal in place – with one big problem

https://nypost.com/2021/10/27/deshaun-watson-trade-to-miami-in-place-with-one-big-catch/

No, it provides evidence that one team wasn't willing to take the unsettled baggage.

And from the article-- "Watson has only waived his no-trade clause for the Dolphins so far."

Whaddya know....the power of a no-trade clause. rofl


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And the power of "I don't want his baggage" seems to hold water. It seems your theory of watson turned them all down doesn't hold water but yet you persist. Color me shocked.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
And the power of "I don't want his baggage" seems to hold water. It seems your theory of watson turned them all down doesn't hold water but yet you persist. Color me shocked.

Feel free to address the comment about 9 of 13 teams telling Watson and the Texans "no thanks".


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Yet I have some evidence that a team did and you have zero evidence, in fact just the opposite of that claiming he in fact was the one who turned them down.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Yet I have some evidence that a team did and you have zero evidence, in fact just the opposite of that claiming he in fact was the one who turned them down.

You made a positive step, even if you don't know it. You originally said "Which provides some evidence that teams weren't willing to take on the unsettled baggage watson brought to the table." Now as your above comment states, you went back to the singular w/ just one team. Bravo.

However, if I wanted to use your logic stating you have some evidence that a team didn't want him, that same report states Watson only would waive his no-trade clause for one, thus eliminating at that time 31 other teams. That's quite a bit of evidence too.

Let me know when you like to go back and seriously address that 9 of 13 and my subsequent response. If not......

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Let me know when you're willing to admit that there were only so few teams left willing to sign him because he exlcuded them by using his no trade clause. Because unlike yourself, I actually have evidence that isn't true.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Let me know when you're willing to admit that there were only so few teams left willing to sign him because he exlcuded them by using his no trade clause. Because unlike yourself, I actually have evidence that isn't true.


What you actually have is hearsay. You weren't in the room, you aren't on staff. You have "articles" written by people that heard from people that might have been in the room.

You will fight bitterly to tell people they are wrong but YOU have no firsthand knowledge which means you have no actual evidence. No one here does.

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I'd dare say you don't need firsthand knowledge to be able to prove somebody wrong, that's just silly.

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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Let me know when you're willing to admit that there were only so few teams left willing to sign him because he exlcuded them by using his no trade clause. Because unlike yourself, I actually have evidence that isn't true.


What you actually have is hearsay. You weren't in the room, you aren't on staff. You have "articles" written by people that heard from people that might have been in the room.

You will fight bitterly to tell people they are wrong but YOU have no firsthand knowledge which means you have no actual evidence. No one here does.

I put Pit on ignore yesterday morning. Great decision on my part, but I found this part of your quote from him interesting.

Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Let me know when you're willing to admit that there were only so few teams left willing to sign him because he exlcuded them by using his no trade clause. Because unlike yourself, I actually have evidence that isn't true.

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Originally Posted by LexDawg
I'd dare say you don't need firsthand knowledge to be able to prove somebody wrong, that's just silly.

When you feel the need to belittle people and be snarky your evidence should be solid. Saying he knows what happened behind closed doors with such certainty is silly.

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[

Following on from this question that was asked with relatively limited response...


Originally Posted by FATE
Yeah, I forgot to include the disclaimer, based on his comment -- "even if it is year long" as part of the decision. So based on a year-long suspension, would anyone do this deal?


Zac Jackson of The Athletic has basically never said a good word about Baker. If he's not a hater he's certainly a strong Baker sceptic.... I've really not seen a balanced or neutral article from him on Baker - just my perspective.

https://theathletic.com/3376757/2022/06/27/deshaun-watson-suspension-cleveland-browns/

If find it interesting to see him say already this was a bad trade. That's truly surprising to me.

On a side note I'm in Springfield MA tonight. Eating at Max Tavern inside the basketball hall of fame building. Outside there is a statue with various quotes from various coaches. One struck me as relevant.. I don't k ow who said it now but it went something like: Sometimes it's better to be right and second than be wrong and first. Feels like the Browns did wrong and sadly we're a long way from first!


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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by LexDawg
I'd dare say you don't need firsthand knowledge to be able to prove somebody wrong, that's just silly.

When you feel the need to belittle people and be snarky your evidence should be solid. Saying he knows what happened behind closed doors with such certainty is silly.

Still doesn't make the idea that you need firsthand knowledge valid.

LexDawg #1953975 06/28/22 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LexDawg
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by LexDawg
I'd dare say you don't need firsthand knowledge to be able to prove somebody wrong, that's just silly.

When you feel the need to belittle people and be snarky your evidence should be solid. Saying he knows what happened behind closed doors with such certainty is silly.

Still doesn't make the idea that you need firsthand knowledge valid.

To speculate? No, you don't. To tell people they are flat out wrong and to argue every single point, including the same level of proof someone else has? Yeah, no, you need better than just mere speculatory evidence.

Have a good evening

FrankZ #1954058 06/29/22 10:09 AM
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As fun as it is to watch this back-and-forth between Pitt and Frank... what were we actually debating in this thread, again?

Was it that nobody wanted to touch Watson at all? That's not true given that 13 teams initially inquired about Watson, and 4-5 teams were interested enough for the Texans to allow them to talk to Watson.

Was it that nobody else wanted to sell their soul for Watson like the Browns did? That's not true either. There was at least 1 other team that would've matched the Browns contract. This was reported and linked on here multiple times.

Were other teams totally undeterred by Watson's issues? Also false. Only 4 teams met the Texans trade demands out of the original 13 (and my emphasis is actually on the 13 number... a QB of his caliber that's obviously going to move and less than half the league is calling?). There was also the Dolphins... they were allegedly all set to fire on a trade and they backed out at the last minute, allegedly because of the impending civil cases that didn't have an end date at the time. It seems that the Dolphins were the only people that saw the impending ish-show and decided they wanted none of it. Kudos to them, I suppose.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

-PrplPplEater
FrankZ #1954127 06/29/22 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by FrankZ
What you actually have is hearsay. You weren't in the room, you aren't on staff. You have "articles" written by people that heard from people that might have been in the room.

You will fight bitterly to tell people they are wrong but YOU have no firsthand knowledge which means you have no actual evidence. No one here does.

And neither do they with their assertions. You are only here to fight.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I put Pit on ignore yesterday morning.

Yet you still can't keep my name out of your mouth. #snowflake


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

#gmstrong
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