DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jimmy Haslam

That's the only team that it has been made public. But no, this entire thing started by Vers making claims that 13 teams made serious inquiries about watson. That they had shown serious interest. What we do actually know is one of the finalists in the watson sweepstakes backed out because of these legal issues. We have no idea how many teams may have weighed the risk reward factor and never considered him an option again after the initial call.

I feel anyone being objective here would have to admit the risk/reward factor was huge. In the end only four teams thought it was worth consideration to forego it and try to get him anyway. And one of those four backed out when the lawsuits couldn't be settled. What was ludicrous was claiming that 13 teams had serious interest to sign watson based on the fact 13 teams initially contacted the Texans about watson.

No team that didn't even know the price tag or where the lawsuits stood at the time had "serious interest". You can only consider something seriously when you know the cost, status and investigate a situation. Then and only then can you consider something on a serious level. Unless people think these owners and teams are total fools. There's a big difference between "let's look into this" and serious interest.

And your most witty retort is something I said... c'mon man, get yer own words and stop using mine.

No need to. You seem to realize how stupid it sounds when someone directs it towards you. Hopefully you can learn from that.

I realize it is stupid by calling it a witty retort? Mayhaps you need a new dictionary, one with less pictures and more words.

You're only here to fight. ^ Evidence.

Only option for coming out smelling like a rose is a Super Bowl victory. Anything less, this was the biggest failure of a trade in the history of the NFL. Put the team on hold for an entire year, while crippling future years with the loss in assets. This story will be the final 10 minutes of future editions of shows featuring Cleveland failures.

It's odd that we have such a huge variation in the options too, risk big win/lose big.

Haslam hit panic mode when he saw the other Ohio team
Completely hurdle the Browns last year

I guess that is possible, but I doubt it. Giving up 3 first round picks who plays like one of the top-tier qbs for a decade or so is actually a good move. Look at all the resources teams gave up for Stafford and Wilson. Look at all the resources teams gave up for the rights to draft guys like Wentz, Goff, Lance, RGIII, etc. Minnesota gave up their entire draft for Hershel Walker. I could go on, but Watson is an excellent qb. Giving up 3 firsts for a guy who is an elite qb is actually a bargain considering how hard it is to find those guys. Now, if he screws up and goes to jail or something........then, your prediction would be proven correct.

With Stafford you made my point, Stafford has already won a Super Bowl. Wilson is going to a team that hasn't been to the playoffs in 7 years, hasn't had a winning record in 6 years and replacing a QB that is now with the Seahawks, whom are looking to replace him with Baker Mayfield.

The Browns are one year removed from the playoffs and were still in the hunt in 2021 until the second to last week of the newly extended 17 week season of going again with an injured QB playing all year long. They replaced the QB that won the first playoff game in 27 years with a guy who quit on his team, only has one playoff win to his resume, has not played in 16 months at the time of signing and very well could be 2 1/2 years when he finally re-enters the field of play.

Which brings us to the final factor.. The face of the franchise is what 30-40% of the United States population believe is a serial sex offender. Doesn't matter if he was convicted of a crime, the parts of the situation that he doesn't deny is enough for probably 20% of that demographic to stop buying gear, stop going to games, stop raising another generation of Browns fans. It hurt the franchise in ways you and I will never see, which stunts the growth moving forward. What state of mind will Deshaun Watson be in when he finally returns to live action? No one knows and it is one hell of a big risk doing what they did. The ONLY reason to make such a risky decision is a Lombardi Trophy. That is why my statement is so bold.

Okay, our views are polar to one another. That's fine.

The Rams have traded away their draft picks for years. They won last year's Super Bowl because they traded for a qb after giving up the farm for the rights to draft Goff not all that long ago. The Rams are the favorite to win the NFC again this year.

A few years ago, Tampa Bay was 7 and 9 w/a qb who turned the ball over too much. They signed Brady and won the Super Bowl the very next year. They lost last year in a thriller to the eventual SB champs are in considered in the top 3 favorites in the NFC this year.


The Times They Are A-Changin'

My sentiments exactly. It takes differing opinions to make the world go round...

I won't disagree with you on this point, but the Rams are an anomaly. They have been very good at getting players in latter rounds that have made major contributions. The first round picks have been replaced with 2nd-4th round picks that have played at a first round talent at the pro level.

Foundation players:
All Pros;
Aaron Donald, 1st round pick
Cooper Kupp, 3rd round pick

Major contributors;
Van Jefferson, 2nd round pick
Entire starting offensive line chosen in rounds 2-5
Tyler Higbee round 4
David Long round 3
Jordan Fuller round 6
Nick Scott round 7
Greg Gaines round 4

All of these players were contributing prior to Stafford coming in.

Now they will ask even more of Cam Akers round 2, Earnest Jones round 3, Darrell Henderson round 3, to contribute more as starters and major relief players.

Not many teams have that kind of starting power at t the level the Rams play at, found in the later rounds. They are either lucky, or have one of the best scouting departments in the business.

Hopefully we have that kind also, but we are relying on a lot more 1st rounders to bring our level of play close to the Rams.
5 of our starters are 1st round draft picks, of the rest of the 22 starters, only 9 are Browns draft picks compared to 14 on the Rams. Of those 9, 5 are from the 2nd round and 2 are from the 3rd. That means the Browns have found 2 players in the draft in rounds 4-7 worthy of starting. I'm not sure we have the same scouting department as the Rams.

Teams have to work with the tools they have. Just because one team was successful doing it one way, doesn't mean that is easy to emulate.

Oh... and we had another 1st rounder on the team that has been starting for the last 4 years...He was replaced by the guy we are now discussing. Ability wise, good move. Watson is a obvious upgrade, availability is a whole other story and availability goes a long way toward ability. We will see. Maybe the judge will give him no suspension and those that don't care about the sexual misconduct might see success in using a person like him to gain that success. Others will still follow the team, but with much less enthusiasm, while others will be gone completely. Not because of their love of the Browns is gone, but because the way the ownership chose to run the team overpowered their ability to morally support them.

I agree w/you that the Rams had players contributing before Stafford came in. Hell, Tampa Bay was the same way. They had a good D. Their WRs and OL were good.

What was missing? A top-tier QB.

The Browns are in a similar situation. They have an excellent roster and had an inferior qb. They boldly made the move to acquire a top-tier QB just like the Rams and Bucs did. Denver is doing the same thing. The NFL has evolved to a point where you are not winning w/out an elite QB. I understand Watson's baggage, but securing him for the long haul is vital to this organization's success.

j/c

Does anyone else find it funny how those who have sworn that building through the draft for years, sometimes decades have suddenly turned into sell the farm guys? Or how much they advocated that you get your QB through the draft because those huge QB contracts keep you handcuffed from a salary cap aspect for years are suddenly saying handcuff us?

Their entire philosophy just changed on a dime.

IIRC, the 'go get a QB' mandate comes before/above 'build through the draft'.

That's in no way the picture people painted before. They were saying that once you signed a QB to such a huge contract it would take up so much of the salary cap it would be next to impossible to keep a quality team together for the long haul. And they were right.

True, but I highly doubt anyone predicted a top5 QB becoming available prior to him hitting his prime. I just wanted to point out that 'build through the draft' and 'get a QB' were 2 separate points of emphasis, with the QB one seemingly prioritized higher.

Yes, you build through the draft. At some point you have to stop building and start attacking the prize, getting a ring.

We've built, now you fix the spots that need fixing in FA. No one ever said you can't use free agents.

You build, the window opens, you fix your weakness. That's the whole path. Nothing new.

It's kinda hard to follow the conversation, but we already have built through the draft. Our team is loaded w/talented players. We did not have a top-tier qb. We traded for one because he became available. It's not complicated.

And it won't be complicated to see how we won't have nearly as talented a roster a few years down the road. Because as has been pointed out, Berry writes contacts that escalate over time. Each year it will cost more and more to keep this team together as watson continues to eat more and more cap space.

Part of Berry's job is to spend to the limit of control then control then keep the whole thing in check.

It will be interesting to see if and how he can make that happen.

You can always refer back to the beginning of the offseason posts (i don't mean this as a snarky comment). This was talked about during that time.

- The salary cap keeps going up with a big boost in the next couple years.

- Look at this year, a big portion of the league were over the cap. There were a crazy amount of restructures compared to previous years (this is one reason of many why people's minds change on a dime). Also to that point, when that time comes there will be restructuring of their contract that will benefit the player in getting a large sum all at once and also an out for the team so the cap hit will be minimal.

- you said a "few years" down the road, what do you consider a few years? Chubb is 26, a few years down the road he will be considered an old running back (ugh, I don't even want to think about that). Players will get older, they will be cut for various reasons (decline in play, younger guy shows more promise, etc). Some of our players who we consider top players now, won't be considered that in a few years.

I understand your point. But things change, and they change almost year to year in the NFL. Regarding your focus on QBs, I hate to use generalizations, but we all want a franchise QB. I would be surprised if I was wrong with that statement.

DW has consistently been one of the top QBs every year since he's been in the league. My opinion at the beginning of the offseason, was to trade down gain more picks and trade up for one or the best QB in next years supposedly strong QB draft. I know this is just my projection, but I would expect our pick was going to be at 10 or later in the first round. So giving up a few future first rounders or more was plausible to me to get up to the top 3 of the draft.

We have a lot of great talent and some of the top talent at key positions. Now is the time to get that franchise QB. That's why I would've traded up for Stroud, Bryce or whoever. Those first rounders are valuable, but a consistently top of the line QB is even more valuable. A top of the line QB will always give you a higher percentage chance of making the playoffs and/or making the SB. Instead of having a mid-tier QB and hoping all the pieces around him play to their level in able to win games or a playoff. Name any of the top tier QBs in the league (Rogers, Mahomes, etc) I would gladly give up three first rounders for any of them. The difference between getting Stroud, Bryce, etc compared to DW - is DW has consistently shown every year to be a top level QB in the league. The drafted QB "may" be a hit or miss. He might be the next Mahomes or he might be the next Sam Darnold. With the talent we have now, I would rather have the known entity then hoping they turn into the known entity.

Once we traded for DW my mindset changed. The Browns got that franchise QB that we all want. Speaking football only, mission accomplished.

The way i see it is Watson is one of the 1st rounds, so IMo we gave up 2 1st rounders. I don't think it will be all that crushing.

I ranked the top QBs not too long ago. I put them in tiers. My top tier included in no particular order: J. Allen, Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, Burrow, Herbert, and Watson. The second tier just below the top tier was Lamar, Stafford, and R. Wilson. I don't think many people who know the game would debate too much w/that top 10. I don't think many would debate the top 7. Some might throw a Lamar in there. Maybe Stafford. However, there is a bit of a drop off w/the second tier guys.

So, let's look at a few things:


--In 2012, the Redskins sent three first-round picks and a second-round pick to the Rams to draft RGIII.

--In 2016, the Rams gave the Titans 2 first round choices, 2 more in the second, and 2 more in the third.

--That same year, the Eagles gave the Browns 2 first round choices, 1 second, 1 third, and 1 fourth.

--Last year, the Rams gave the Lions 2 first round choices, a 3rd, and Goff.

--This year, Denver gave the Seahawks 2 first rounders, 2 seconds, Drew Lock, Noah Fant [a young top TE,] and DT Shelby Harris.

Clearly, Watson is the best qb of the bunch. He is also younger than both Stafford and Wilson.

The Browns have an excellent roster and now they have a top-tier qb who can lead the team for a decade or so.

It was a trade well worth making.

Agreed. If we can get by this suspension, whatever it may be, we might be set up well for the next few years. I said this might blow up in our faces and it still may, at least at first, but after we get through it, we may be in good shape.

Home,

I agree with you. And just like you I'm sure, I want this to be a great year. But to keep on the optimistic side of what I've read. If DW is suspended for the whole year (this is if it's the whole year) we can roll over a lot of cap savings.

article
If this article is true, then not only do we get DW back next year. We also have a great amount of rolled over cap money to play with in free agency and any contracts needing re-signed. While we just locked up a bunch of our key players this past offseason.

I read the article. I hope it's true. One more observation I'd like to make. If DW gets suspended for a year, he wouldn't have played in 2 years. Okay, that will be true. DW has gotten a few injuries because of how he plays, scrambling and whatever. He may be rusty but that should quickly wear off. He hasn't forgotten how to play. Secondly, it will give him plenty of time to heal, if he hasn't already, not to mention it will be 2 years of wear and tear his body will avoid. I think in the long hall that will make a big difference with his longevity. JMO

I don't really disagree with you on much of what you stated. I simply question how much continuity we can keep the way these contracts all actually seem to be structured. It's not as if they gradually increase as the salary cap increases. Instead their costs skyrocket in very short order.

Or you can look at it this way, by the time Watson's contract kicks in, he will be down the list on QB contracts. If he gets a full year suspension, his contract tolls. So the $1M salary will be the 2023 season. So, his big money won't kick in until 2024.

Current cap hits:
2022 $10,028,000
2023 $54,993,000
2024 $54,993,000
2025 $54,993,000
2026 $54,993,000

If the contract tolls:
2022 $8,993,000
2023 $10,028,000
2024 $54,993,000
2025 $54,993,000
2026 $54,993,000
2027 $46,000,000

Over that same time span, the salary cap is supposed to increase between 8-10% per season. Adding approx. $17-20M in 2023, $18-21M in 2024... Which means, by 2025, the salary cap increase is paying for Watson's salary+. So really they just need to concentrate on kicking the contracts down the road until 2026, when the cap increase helps with the other contracts besides Watson's.

Possibly, but I don't think it will matter a whole lot. Any additions to longevity would be on the back end of the career, and IMO wear and tear isn't the only factor that slows a persons play. It might not even be a factor since Watson hasn't had any significant injuries that I know of. Father time is the X factor in all of that. It'd not like you can bubble wrap a 25 year old, bring him out 10 years later and have a 35 year old playing like a 25 year old.

Anybody who has reached that "I can't or better not do that anymore" moment knows what I am talking about. It usually happens when you are around 31 or so.

Mine happened when I was around that age. I was up on the roof doing something and didn't want to go back to the other side to the ladder. I jumped off garage roofs all the time when I was young. We made it a game. Well, this time it didn't feel all that good. I was OK, but it dawned on me that "I better not do that anymore".

j/c:

I don't think the loss of picks is all that big of a problem as compared to what we gain.

As it stands now, we are down two 1st rounders. i don't think the loss of picks hurt us this year.

The league is transitioning a bit in that many of the top teams have favored going for free agents or trades v having top picks. Obviously there is a balance in there where you don't want to be like Allen's Redskins, but with the projected salary cap going up, i think we can live with a top free agent signing for the next year or two in place of a 1st round rookie.

We are still a young team. If we use our 2nd and 3rd round picks wisely, we can still build for the near future retirements, such as Bitonio, and even then i don't think he is all that close. We will be back in the 1st round by the time that happens.

When you are in that 3-5 year window teams rely less on rookies and go all out with proven vet players. Our window is open. Time to move on that and think more in the short term and less on the long term.

I find it amazing to read how people who swore by "you build through the draft" since what seems like forever have suddenly changed their tunes as soon as the Browns do the opposite. Just an observation.

I still feel that way. We have done that.

Now we had a chance to get a major upgrade at QB added to a stacked team.

Like I said, once you get in to that Super bowl window you sometimes make the moves to maximize that window, and that doesn't always mean you draft rookies.

I am amazed at how you always try to make something out of nothing.