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Berry has brought in a bunch of receivers. The Camp competition will shake out the starters.

We have talent and depth on the OL. DW can execute any offense. We will still run and teams know that.

However, even if we do not bring in another receiver. I am confident in the passing game.

The reason is we will still use play action. Teams have to honor our ability to run. In addition DW is a run threat.

Njoku, Bryant, Hunt, Felton, Grant, will be involved in the passing attack. Cooper, DPJ, Bell, Schwartz, will all have routes.

The offense will use the entire field. Space and timing. DW is the key. That is why he is with this team. The offense is through him.

Find the open man or check down. I don't believe we have any limitations. Our receivers are good enough because DW will make good decisions most of the time.

I am confident in the offense.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Just to butt in for a moment, I think the best unit on our team is the offensive line.
No doubt... but in my comment was more in terms of our possibly new preferred alignment.


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j/c:

For those who are more casual fans and not into some of the packages, schemes, etc.........I'll add this. 11 Personnel is what we primarily ran in 2019 when Freddie was the HC. The first 1 represents the number of running backs and the second 1 is the number of TEs on the field. Kitchens was fired after that disastrous season and it was understood that Baker could not thrive in such a system. Stefanski was hired and ran a lot more 12 and 13 personnel and even some 22 personnel. Again, first number is for the # of backs and second number represents the # of TEs on the field. We were able to utilize more play action due our strong OL and great running game. We ran naked boots. All of these things helped Baker improve. Some folks are now claiming that Stefanski's scheme hurt Baker. I think that is false.

What Watson brings to the team is that he can be good in any of the packages. We can mix up our personnel packages. That's a huge benefit. Personally speaking, while I hope we mix in 11 Personnel, I prefer that we still use 12 Personnel as our most used package. I think that plays to the strengths of our offensive personnel. I do think that we still need another experienced WR. I really wish Landry would have came back, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

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A little bit more on 11 Personnel. If you run a lot of 11 Personnel, you better have two excellent tackles. You also need a qb who can make quick decisions because he is going to get pressured. Your receivers better be able to be good at making sight adjustments and hot reads and your qb has to excel in that area, as well. The benefit is that you are really putting a ton of pressure on the opposing secondary. You can run a ton of combination routes that exposes holes in your coverage and your number of big plays should increase.

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Good stuff. And it's not like you need to reach some point of "utopia", with all those moving parts, for it to be devastating to a defense... especially with all our weapons. Now we have a QB that can execute from that platform.


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re: what you said about needing 2 good tackles.... does having a mobile QB somewhat mitigate that? I assume that the need for the better tackles is because you have more people running routes and less available to block. Just curious.

I get how we have the QB to run more 11. I did think that Baker could eventually get to a point where he'd be good enough between the ears with the stuff after the snap, but Watson is an obvious upgrade in that area. What I don't understand is why we would run more 11 with the rest of our skill positions. We are an embarassment of riches at RB, and I'd argue Bryant brings more to the table than the WR that he'd come out for. IMO, you try to get your best guys out there as much as possible.


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Whoever is responsible for the offense, whether it is Kevin Stefanski, or Alex Van Pelt or someone other,
IF!
The Browns spread the ball around soo much, Again, that no pass catcher can have very many catches, and most don't hit 37+ catches until the end of the year IF at all,
If that happens,
Then,
After this changeover of the Head Quarterback, and the changeover of the receivers, it will begin to be evident, that, it has to be a coach or scheme or game playing strategy that is holding back the abilities of the players to, you know, get more than a couple catches per game, in any of their games, and if it's the coaches, and schemes' fault... then what would really be going on, what would, I mean, what would we be doing here/there. Doubling down on a scheme on offense that doesn't work very well? Even after the whole cloth personel changes?
Or,
If not, and things go fine,
then somebodys going to get more than 6 catches per game, (SOME game.)
So again, What coach is the most responsible for the offense?


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I don't know.


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Quote
what you said about needing 2 good tackles.... does having a mobile QB somewhat mitigate that? I assume that the need for the better tackles is because you have more people running routes and less available to block. Just curious.

A mobile qb can help provided he has time to even get back to his proper depth and can get a look at where the rush is coming from.

As to the second part of your opening paragraph.........yeah, think about it......only having one back and one TE who may be going out on a route leaves your tackles on an island. Here is a visual. Remember the last Steeler game last year when Baker was sacked 9 times and how we were not doubling and chipping Watt? Stefanski opened up the playbook that game to let Baker do it. He got away from all the 12 and 13 personnel that people were complaining about in regards to how much those packages hampered Baker. It was a disaster.


Quote
What I don't understand is why we would run more 11 with the rest of our skill positions. We are an embarassment of riches at RB, and I'd argue Bryant brings more to the table than the WR that he'd come out for. IMO, you try to get your best guys out there as much as possible.

I agree w/you and that is why I said while I hope we implement some 11 personnel, we use 12 as our most prominent package.

One aside that is kinda related........I was watching NFL Live a little while ago and they were talking about the QBs in the AFC North. They put a graphic of Watson's league rankings since 2017 outside the pocket. He was up at--or near--the top in multiple important categories. Ninkovich was talking about what a great job the Browns do of booting their qbs w/Stefanski. There was a graphic about it and I am pretty sure we ranked 4th in terms of doing that the most. They went on to talk about how devastating Watson is going to be in that scheme because if you are playing odd man coverages and the DBs are in trail and run positions, DW will be able to run for 20 or more. He was saying it's a nightmare for DEs and Linebackers. It was pretty cool to hear. I'm excited about our possibilities.

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Originally Posted by oobernoober
re: what you said about needing 2 good tackles.... does having a mobile QB somewhat mitigate that? I assume that the need for the better tackles is because you have more people running routes and less available to block. Just curious.

I get how we have the QB to run more 11. I did think that Baker could eventually get to a point where he'd be good enough between the ears with the stuff after the snap, but Watson is an obvious upgrade in that area. What I don't understand is why we would run more 11 with the rest of our skill positions. We are an embarassment of riches at RB, and I'd argue Bryant brings more to the table than the WR that he'd come out for. IMO, you try to get your best guys out there as much as possible.

You also have to take into account who the defense puts on the field to offset our personnel. Swapping Bryant for a WR probably brings a CB in for a LB and likely changes the numbers in the box. Let a CB have to tackle one of our RBs a few times and see how fast business decisions start being made.

Throw in the fact that pocket manipulation wasn't Baker's forte and he needed extra bodies to try to buy him more time/distance from the edge. Oklahoma spoiled him with clean pockets. He could drift wherever and generally be fine. In the NFL, he had a tendency to drift into trouble.

Watson is much better at stepping up into the pocket. He doesn't necessarily need the lengthened edge and can process faster to take advantage of more potential targets.

A speed receiver could also lighten the box count by drawing over the top help from a safety. Teams weren't overly threatened vertically by Bryant's ~4.7 speed.

Harrison has provided value for us and can continue to contribute, but it should be nice to be able to adjust gameplans/personnel packages based on the opponent rather than being somewhat pigeon-holed by our QBs requirements.


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That is the whole enchalada.

Quarterbacks who are a real running threat outside of structure hurt you.

DW in the pocket will kill you if the defense vacates space. He has checkdown options and he can take off for 20.

We are good enough at receiver and TE. We are exceptional on the OL and running back. The offense has to be looked at as a whole not parts because that is what will make it work. The open options and being unpredictable from many looks.

My wish is to sign Clowney and Akiem Hicks. We then will be good to go.

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Does DeShaun Watson take a lot of sacks? Yes.
Are they his fault the times he gets sacked? Some.

https://theathletic.com/2240998/2020/12/09/texans-deshaun-watson-sacks/


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I do not understand the enthusiasm about our offensive "weapons"...yes...we have TWO great RBs...but we have nothing but potential at TE...ONE proven WR...two developmental WRs...a good-looking rookie WR and a handful of practice squad WRs. We STILL don't have a legitimate deep threat.

Yes...there is time to sign another guy or two...but until that actually happens...we are asking our new QB to make chicken salad out of...

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Cooper is a deep threat.

DPJ is going into his third year. He is a deep threat.

Schwartz is a deep threat. I understand Schwartz has to prove it. However, internally I believe the Browns expect him to have a good year.

Both Njoku and Bryant are TE who can catch the ball.

In the end it is DW. The closest thing we have seen of elite play at quarterback was the second half of 2020. That year we won a playoff game on the road.

The NFL is about quarterback play.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Cooper is a deep threat.

DPJ is going into his third year. He is a deep threat.

Schwartz is a deep threat. I understand Schwartz has to prove it. However, internally I believe the Browns expect him to have a good year.

Both Njoku and Bryant are TE who can catch the ball.

In the end it is DW. The closest thing we have seen of elite play at quarterback was the second half of 2020. That year we won a playoff game on the road.

The NFL is about quarterback play.

I hope you are correct...I fear that I am.

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I agree that Watson is the type of QB who can elevate others. Those guys are rare.

I also agree that another deep threat is not "needed." Cooper can get deep. So can Schwartz and even DPJ.

On the other hand, we lost two excellent receivers in OBJ and Landry and right now we are in a position where we are going to have to rely on unproven guys as our #2 and #3 options. Personally, I am not comfortable w/that. I am NOT saying that Bell, DPJ, and Schwartz can't step up, but we have a very good roster and scheme. I would like one more proven WR on the roster. Someone who can read coverages, exploit holes in zone coverages, run precise routes, understands the nuances of the game, etc. If that means we need to spend more money, so be it.

I am not saying we are the Super Bowl favorite in the AFC, but I think we have a chance to represent the conference. There are a ton of excellent teams in the AFC and some elite QBs. We're close enough that I think it would be worth it to overpay for one more quality WR for a year or two.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I agree that Watson is the type of QB who can elevate others. Those guys are rare.

I also agree that another deep threat is not "needed." Cooper can get deep. So can Schwartz and even DPJ.

On the other hand, we lost two excellent receivers in OBJ and Landry and right now we are in a position where we are going to have to rely on unproven guys as our #2 and #3 options. Personally, I am not comfortable w/that. I am NOT saying that Bell, DPJ, and Schwartz can't step up, but we have a very good roster and scheme. I would like one more proven WR on the roster. Someone who can read coverages, exploit holes in zone coverages, run precise routes, understands the nuances of the game, etc. If that means we need to spend more money, so be it.

I am not saying we are the Super Bowl favorite in the AFC, but I think we have a chance to represent the conference. There are a ton of excellent teams in the AFC and some elite QBs. We're close enough that I think it would be worth it to overpay for one more quality WR for a year or two.

Unfortunately, I don't really see a quality receiver worth overpaying still available. T.Y. Hilton, maybe, though I don't know how much he has left in the tank. Apparently Jarvis wants too much of an overpay, and we drafted his replacement. Plus, I also tend to think his tank is running a bit low as well. His mind is willing, but his body has taken a beating.

I think DPJ is ready to step up and would have been much better last year if he'd had better QB play. If the young guys are going to keep improving, they are going to need reps. It looks like we're going to see how well this staff can actually develop players. I know the precedent isn't very promising and can lead to trepidation. Yet, if we're going to have sustained success, development will be critical. Hopefully, the FO and coaching staff have a good handle on where everyone is at on the learning curve.


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I believe the receivers will shake out. Although I would love Jarvis back.

Because of the way Bell plays IMO he will step right in. Bradley, the UDFA, Woods, maybe someone will check in.

The season is long and lots can happen.

I think the Bills are the best team in football. That does not mean they will win the SB.

We have a roster who can play any team straight up. So, I am all good.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Cooper is a deep threat.

DPJ is going into his third year. He is a deep threat.

Schwartz is a deep threat. I understand Schwartz has to prove it. However, internally I believe the Browns expect him to have a good year.

Both Njoku and Bryant are TE who can catch the ball.

In the end it is DW. The closest thing we have seen of elite play at quarterback was the second half of 2020. That year we won a playoff game on the road.

The NFL is about quarterback play.
I think the term "deep threat" gets thrown around alot
And it applies to less targets than people might think

Any WR can run a deep route.it's the most basic pattern in the route tree
But very WRS are actual deep threats
Amari Cooper is not a deep threat. He had only one catch
Over 40 yds last year
Anthony Schwartz until I see different is not a deep threat
Chase ,Kupp, Cooks, Watkins, Adams, Mike Williams ,
Hollywood Brown, Samuel, Hill are all deep threats

DPJ is kinda a deep threat but he is very inconsistant

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I don't really agree w/your list and I think the value of a "deep threat" is greatly exaggerated. It's nice, but you can scheme guys to get open deep. I think we need a guy who is more polished than just a burner who can take the top off.

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As long as the offense can consistently gain yards and score.

Nothing else matters. Control the ball and put it across the goal line.

Last season we won 8 games with a putrid offense. This offense will be a vast improvement.

I don't think we are done acquiring players. We may still add two or three guys.

Clowney, another DT, and maybe a receiver.

There are many good teams and lots of great players. I believe we will be the hunt. Some things need to go your way but we have a good team.

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Ok...now we need to find a definition of "deep threat"...no one thinks that a "deep threat" just means some fast guy...absolutely no one. My goodness.

Let's define the "needed guy" as someone who can get behind the defense...someone who makes the DC adjust HIS play calls to respect that guy's ability. Someone who oftentimes needs to be double teamed/schemed. There is a very good reason that the phrase "takes the top off the defense" exists. We don't have a guy who is that kind of a threat. We can hope that Cooper can accomplish that or hope that DPJ can become that...but I don't think we have it...still.

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We will not know until we play.

DW has never been with a roster like ours.

Until we play it will be hard to see the chemistry of the team come together. Practice, practice, practice.

We really don't know how DW will work with our current receivers, TE's, and backs.

I can kinda guess based upon how he played in Houston. We have to watch this offense come together.

I think the talent is there. I expect the Browns to be a top ten offense. Few teams in the NFL have the potential of the Browns because of the balance we could bring. It starts up front. Then goes to our ability to run including the qb. The receivers and TE's and finally what DW can do insdie this offense.

Right now I don't know. But I am curious to see how we develop.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
We will not know until we play.

DW has never been with a roster like ours.

Until we play it will be hard to see the chemistry of the team come together. Practice, practice, practice.

We really don't know how DW will work with our current receivers, TE's, and backs.

I can kinda guess based upon how he played in Houston. We have to watch this offense come together.

I think the talent is there. I expect the Browns to be a top ten offense. Few teams in the NFL have the potential of the Browns because of the balance we could bring. It starts up front. Then goes to our ability to run including the qb. The receivers and TE's and finally what DW can do insdie this offense.

Right now I don't know. But I am curious to see how we develop.
This is the basic gospel on the subject IMO.

There are only a few very special WRs that fit the "take the top off" description as a birthright. Most of them are created within the scheme of an offense. How many have we watched switch teams over the years and not be nearly the "threat" they were within the previous scheme? Yes it takes a certain skill-set (Liam Neeson voice), but it takes the right offense and synergy with the QB as well.

DPJ has the "tools". Schwartz has enough upside in the speed dept that he can become a cog in this wheel.


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It's intresting that for a offense that has the best supposed oline in the NFL and the best run game
It had a deep passing game close to non existent last year.
Why was that ? Cause if you can run the football, then your play action should work.
And many a deep completion Is off the play action
The Browns don't have one WR now that can blow the lid off the secondary
Amari Cooper is not a true #1 WR. He is only the number 1 because no other WR on
The Browns has shown they can be a number 1.
Cooper only had 2-100 yd games last year. And he wasnt even facing the other teams
Top CB every game

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It is my opinion that it all is about the function of the offense you are in and how well the team executes that offense.

Both Cooper and DW are on a new team. They will be playing different teams in 2022. There is plenty of change when you stay on the same team.
Team rosters change by a third each year.

Now go to another team in a different conference.

I think we just have to be patient and see what happens. I am not going to make any predictitions.

The offense we will play this season is not something we have seen.


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j/c:

I think this thread has gone off track. Can't even fathom how someone is apparently exasperated and angry. Whatever. There was a lot of good discussion for most of the thread and I appreciate that.

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I think a real key to this offense is how Njoku is utilized
He has as much ability and talent as a Andrews Kittle or Kelce
It would be to the benefit to the offense if he was used
Like any of those 3 mentioned
More vertical seam routes and wheel routes, and TE screens.
A TE screen when timed up is a huge play waiting vs
A defense sending the house

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LOL. Njoku as talented as Kittles, Andrews, or Kelce. Yeah, sure.

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Originally Posted by Hammer
LOL. Njoku as talented as Kittles, Andrews, or Kelce. Yeah, sure.
Njoku might be as big as - as fast as - as strong as any of those guys.

He has none of their intangibles and he has none of their consistency.


The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Originally Posted by Hammer
LOL. Njoku as talented as Kittles, Andrews, or Kelce. Yeah, sure.

Why do you say this? Honest question.

The biggest knock on Njoku was bad hands. He improved a lot last two seasons.

I'm not going to make a stand saying Njoku is a top TE. Does changing the QB bring a different light on Njoku? After last year's play, I thought Njoku deserved a little more respect. The proof is in the pudding this year.

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Njoku is very talented, but should not be mentioned in the same breath as those other TEs. I don't blame iluv though. He was trying to be positive, perhaps in response to my last post. My post was not directed at him. I just didn't get why someone would need definitions on receivers and say things like "My goodness" over an opinion on what kind of receiver we need. The thread was humming along w/out all the usual BS, but then...........ya know.

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Njoku up until this year has had to share targets in Stefanski's
Ridiculous 3 TE sets with Hooper and Bryant. Thus his targets are diluted
Does Kelce and Kittle have to share their targets with 2 other
TEs? No. Unless it's a go to goal situation, then it's jumbo sets
With Stefanski changing the playbook to fit Watsons strengths
It should also benefit Njoku. 3 WRs 1 TE. Sounds like a mismatch
With the Chief
Njoku has been under ultized under Stefanski offense that's fact
And yep he is just skilled and talented as Kittle and Kelce
Let's remind ourselves they also happen to play for the best
2 offensive minds in the NFL Shanahan and Reid
Everybody in the NFL Is talented. Sometimes it's the scheme
And coaching that decides a players production.
I think Njoku can be a 1,000 yd TE.that's 66 yds per game kids.
Watson has that uncanny ability to see the whole field
And balance ball distribution

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Bro, w/all due respect.............what did Njoku do under Hue, Haley, and Freddie?

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Was Stefanski using a 3-TE scheme because of the talent?

I'm not sure I understand why you labeled it "ridiculous".

Browns clearly were not healthy enough last year to run an 11-personnel.

In my opinion, Baker was not ready two years ago to lead an 11-personnel scheme.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Bro, w/all due respect.............what did Njoku do under Hue, Haley, and Freddie?
You are correct sir.that's a fair question.what did he do under those 3 clown acts?
Hue peaked coaching wise with the Bengals
This is the same coach that dialed up a flea flicker inside his own
5 yd line only to have picked off by George Iloka
Freddie Kitchens knows about as much offense X and Os
As Cardi B knows how play guitar
What was Freddie a run game coordinator?
Todd Haley at one point had a good offensive mind with the Steelers
Point being all 3 are no longer calling NFL plays and
Creating play books for a reason

I think The Chief can surprise people this year

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In the "surprise" thread I listed Njoku as a guy who I felt would have a big year.

Hooper being gone will get him more reps. I also believe this offense will create more touches for Njoku.

The big thing is DW will occupy more attention with his ability to run and will open space for the TE.

I expect seam routes and more redzone targets. Slant routes along the goal line in red zone thrown low and away to Njoku are undefensible.

Also along the end zone line lofted passes for Njoku to jump for he should do well with.

I think he will develop a chemistry with DW.

Njoku came into the NFL young and raw. It took him years to learn to block. He has matured and is in his prime.

He is in the right place at the right time to reach his true potential.

bonefish #1944499 05/13/22 08:35 AM
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I concur
Some times when a QB in a new surroundings , his best friend
At times is a TE. From a pure natural talent standpoint Njoku is the most
Talented TE/WR option on the Browns
I think David Bell can be a valuable contributor on 3rd downs
He reminds me of smaller Anquan Bolden.

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Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
It's intresting that for a offense that has the best supposed oline in the NFL and the best run game
It had a deep passing game close to non existent last year.
Why was that ?

Maybe because the QB had a bum shoulder?


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
It's intresting that for a offense that has the best supposed oline in the NFL and the best run game
It had a deep passing game close to non existent last year.
Why was that ?

Maybe because the QB had a bum shoulder?

I'm going 100% off memory but wasn't one of baker's strengths his rookie year good/great ball placement on deep routes? It was an absolute weakness last year. I know I saw a highlight green comment about another NFL QB who had an injury to his throwing shoulder versus a non-throwing shoulder and I understand why it's easy to assume an injury to a non-throwing shoulder might not be a factor, but going from memory (or I imagining) someone on this board here said they had the same injury as Baker (minus the break to the humerus) - they said to even raise the arm or twist the torso it was pain and impossible to get the same torque as you would normally?

Anyway - specifically the KS offense, I think we've seen him build routes and play calling to exploit throws deep. We saw it 2020 - and we saw it 2021. In 2021 Baker was throwing off target all over the field but especially deep and especially left sideline. Sure the true definition of a deep threat is someone like a TO or Moss or now we have JaMarr Chase .... but I think Stefanski's scheme and play calling together with Chubb and Hunt will create plenty of opportunities. From what I have seen Watson throws a deep ball about as well as anyone. We should be in good shape.


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