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so "the list goes on" indicates thousands - OK. Brilliant...

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Here's a list (note: not thousands) of QBs drafted since 1990 of players with less than 60% completion percentage in college.

Brett Favre 52.4% Southern Miss. 1990

Mark Brunell 52.0% Washington 1993

Kerry Collins 56.3% Penn State 1995

Drew Bledsoe 54.3% Washington State 1993

Brian Griese 59.5% Michigan 1998

Jeff George 58.8% Illinois 1990

Jake Plummer 55.4% Arizona State 1996

Jeff Garcia 56.8% San Jose State 1994

Donovan McNabb 58.4% Syracuse 1999

Neil O’Donnell 58.8% Maryland 1990

Trent Dilfer 59.1% Fresno State 1994

Trent Green 55.8% Indiana 1993

Jake Delhomme 52.6% Louisiana 1997

Matt Hasselbeck 55.6% Boston College 1998

Mike Vick 56.0% Va Tech 2000

Tyrod Taylor 57.2% Va Tech 2011

Colin Kaepenick 58.2% 2011

Matthew Stafford 57.1% Georgia 2009

Josh McCown 51.2% SMU 2002

Carson Palmer 59.1% USC 2003

Kyle Orton 58.8% Purdue 2005

David Garrard 57.0% East Carolina 2002

Jay Cutler 57.2% Vanderbilt 2006

Matt Ryan 59.9% Boston College 2008

Brian Hoyer 55.8% Michigan State 2009

Derek Anderson 50.7% Oregon State 2005

Chad Henne 59.7% Michigan 2008

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Originally Posted by Pdawg
Fate, if it makes you feel better I don't think Allen would have made it to his 3rd year here. His first two years his stats and play weren't good enough for our fans and media. It's amazing what happens when you allow someone to grow.

Not being confrontational, but I don't agree w/that. Allen was wild when we first saw him in the league, but the physical ability just jumped off the screen. The guy also won over his teammates and has really worked on his game. Additionally, most of the fan base and local media have given Baker more credit than I thought he ever deserved. Once again, it's really hard to evaluate collegiate qbs because the transition is so great.

The best talent evaluators in the football world struggle to project how these high-flying qbs will do in the league. Think about it. Goff and Wentz have been so disappointing. Baker and Darnold went before Allen. Rosen went way before Lamar. Tua ahead of Herbert. Trubisky ahead of Mahomes and Watson. LOL.......it's crazy. And I haven't even mentioned guys like Jamarcus Russel, RG III, Daniel Jones, etc.

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I agree, unless the QB comes out of the gate performing like a 10-15 year established QB the fans and media will crucify the player. I've been watching it for decades and it certainly would have happened to Allen. It's going to happen to Watson too. The expectations are too high for him not to fail. Would it be acceptable to make the playoffs - win 1 game - then be eliminated? If so, where's the upgrade since Mayfield already achieved that goal. The margin for error for a 230M QB is going to be a lot smaller and the negative feed back will be greater.


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I think the market for Watson and Baker speaks for itself in regards to upgrade. I have no problem w/you liking Baker, but Watson is a far superior qb.

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Not to be over-looked is the situation(s) that players were drafted into...Mahomes went to a perfect situation...Allen and Jackson to very solid situations...Mayfield and Darnold to terrible situations.

Goff and Wentz are even more disappointing when considering their drafted-into situations. I don't remember the Texans prior to drafting DW.

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People act like Cleveland is some pressure cooker that is unique to the market. There are way more harsh environments for QBs. People won’t quit Baker because he “won” a playoff game and opened up beer fridges. If a QB has any modicum of success with the Browns the city will fall all over itself to love him. People on here thought Brian Hoyer was a franchise QB because he had a winning record.

*Ramble over*

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by Pdawg
Fate, if it makes you feel better I don't think Allen would have made it to his 3rd year here. His first two years his stats and play weren't good enough for our fans and media. It's amazing what happens when you allow someone to grow.

Not being confrontational, but I don't agree w/that. Allen was wild when we first saw him in the league, but the physical ability just jumped off the screen. The guy also won over his teammates and has really worked on his game. Additionally, most of the fan base and local media have given Baker more credit than I thought he ever deserved. Once again, it's really hard to evaluate collegiate qbs because the transition is so great.

The best talent evaluators in the football world struggle to project how these high-flying qbs will do in the league. Think about it. Goff and Wentz have been so disappointing. Baker and Darnold went before Allen. Rosen went way before Lamar. Tua ahead of Herbert. Trubisky ahead of Mahomes and Watson. LOL.......it's crazy. And I haven't even mentioned guys like Jamarcus Russel, RG III, Daniel Jones, etc.
I don't agree either. It was an easy thing to latch onto as we watched his inconsistency early on.

And yes, exactly what I was eager to type as I read through the rest of the comments... JUMPED off the screen. Despite the learning curve, Buffalo knew they made the right move as soon as he took the field, and teammates knew they had a leader in the locker room.


HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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I don't know. There's the whole Hue throwing any and everyone under the bus angle to consider. He'd have probably wanted the rookie to earn the spot/pay his dues and sit behind the earth-moving RGIII (although it was actually Tyrod in 2018) . A la Chubb and Hyde. Allen might have developed similarly here, but he might not have. We were a mess.

When Trubisky signed with PIT he mentioned that the top thing he learned in Buffalo was to play loose. I feel like Hue was the opposite and harped on not making mistakes. I don't know if that would have been a fit for Allen. ...and then there was Freddie....


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
...Watson is a far superior qb.

Not one poster that I've read on this board has disagreed with that statement.

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J/c

I was listening to a radio show this weekend who talked about this topic. The consensus: Cleveland isn’t a contender because of the unknown surrounding Watson’s suspension


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by CapCity Dawg
Originally Posted by Hammer
and to think Allen could have and should have been a Brown.

Another case of "The King" screwing the pooch.

To be fair, a lot of the experts had concerns with Allen. A lot of ability, but raw. Buffalo took a gamble on him and it paid off. I read somewhere that every off-season Allen identifies a part of his game to improve and works with an expert to do so. Him recognizing that he needs to improve and then finding someone who can help him do that has really paid off. You see the improvement in his play.

He was hot garbage his first couple years in the league, and that would've been right around the Freddie era (IIRC). There's is no way he would've survived the Browns, and vice-versa.


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Here's 20 minutes of hot garbage from 2019...




HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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Yeah - hot garbage. I'd take that hot garbage all day, every day.

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https://billswire.usatoday.com/2020/01/30/pro-football-focus-buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ranks/

TLDR: Low overall ranking with some glaring issues. Good news/bad news, it was an improvement over his rookie year.

"[...] While these are positive steps for Allen, he was the lowest-rated playoff quarterback on the list. Of qualified signal callers, Allen was only ahead of Mitchell Trubisky, Sam Darnold, Jacoby Brissett, Case Keenum, Mason Rudolph, and Kyle Allen."

He came into the NFL as a project. He had a rough go for the first couple years, which ended up fine since Buffalo has been a model of stability since getting McDermidt (sp?). The Browns, however, still had Hue going into the season Allen was drafted, then Freddie. It doesn't take a crystal ball to predict what would've happened here.


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Originally Posted by Hammer
so "the list goes on" indicates thousands - OK. Brilliant...

Yes, because most of them weren't even drafted.

Rule of Thumb: The 60% Solution?

https://www.si.com/nfl/texans/news/rule-of-thumb-the-60-solution


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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3 out of the 27 on that list were not drafted - Hoyer/Garcia/Delhomme.

Yep - sounds like "most", just like list implies "thousands". LOL.

Carry on...

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Of course you don't consider all of those QB's who threw for under 60% that NFL teams didn't consider worth drafting in your opinion.

Try reading that article. It shows you the numbers.

You listed a grand total of 27 QB's that were drafted since 1990. That's less than one QB per year. But thanks for helping make my point for me.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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I would like to take a break from the bickering, insults, and pettiness for a moment and ask a question that is relevant to the topic. Last year, the Bengals won their division and went all the way to the Super Bowl after seasons in which I believe they went 2 and 14 and 4 and 12. Does anyone have a sleeper team that might make some unexpected noise?

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I'm thinking the Titans could make some noise. I don't know if it is entirely unexpected. They're bound to have better injury luck. I think the Colts might regress (particularly on D with a transition to a new DC) and the Texans and Jags aren't very good. Healthy Derrick Henry and AJ Brown with a nice defense on the other side is kind of an outlier in what opposing teams are used to preparing/building for facing.

Baltimore is likely to rebound as well.

I think the Bengals might regress despite the OL upgrades. It looks like they should face a tougher schedule this year than last. They'll be the hunted and DCs will have the whole off-season to come up with plans to try to stop them.

I have no idea what the Dolphins will do. The D is back DC and all, and if the O reaches it's ceiling they'll be dangerous. Of course, the O could just as easily be a discombobulated mess.


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Good football talk. I wasn't thinking of the Titans because they were the number one seed. Baltimore was devastated by injuries, so I agree w/you. The Dolphins could be a team to watch. I'm not too high on Tua, though. I guess Denver could make big strides now that they got Russ and Randy Gregory. Tampa Bay went from a 7 win team to winning the Super Bowl when they got rid of Jamis and lured Brady to Florida. The Browns could be a lot better than an 8 win team, but I think a lot of people recognize the talent they have.

I think it's going to be a really fun year. Of course, there were a lot of great games last year and things changed from week to week and the playoff games were the most exciting I've seen in all my many years.

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LA Super Chargers - got the QB, D upgrades were significant, provided Mack is healthy. HC just needs to check himself a little.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I would like to take a break from the bickering, insults, and pettiness for a moment and ask a question that is relevant to the topic. Last year, the Bengals won their division and went all the way to the Super Bowl after seasons in which I believe they went 2 and 14 and 4 and 12. Does anyone have a sleeper team that might make some unexpected noise?
At this moment im looking at the Steelers as a sleeper team.
In 2021 they had a oline decimated by injury and unproven starters. No cohesion.
Defense was hit hard by no Tuitt to anchor the middle. LB play was inconsistent.
Yet somehow Tomlin has this team in the playoffs.
Trubisky took a lesser Bears roster to the playoffs.
Najee Harris really came on strong toward the end of 2021.
And not to forget. The Steelers beat the Bills in 2021.
The AFC North has legit defenses. Ravens Bengals Steelers. Playmakers all 3-levels
Watson went up against cupcake AFC South defenses in his tenure in Houston.

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I can see Cincy regressing a little bit too, but can see Baltimore thriving when healthy.

The Chargers are a team I ALWAYS think will do better than they actually do


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I would like to take a break from the bickering, insults, and pettiness for a moment and ask a question that is relevant to the topic. Last year, the Bengals won their division and went all the way to the Super Bowl after seasons in which I believe they went 2 and 14 and 4 and 12. Does anyone have a sleeper team that might make some unexpected noise?
At this moment im looking at the Steelers as a sleeper team.
In 2021 they had a oline decimated by injury and unproven starters. No cohesion.
Defense was hit hard by no Tuitt to anchor the middle. LB play was inconsistent.
Yet somehow Tomlin has this team in the playoffs.
Trubisky took a lesser Bears roster to the playoffs.
Najee Harris really came on strong toward the end of 2021.
And not to forget. The Steelers beat the Bills in 2021.
The AFC North has legit defenses. Ravens Bengals Steelers. Playmakers all 3-levels
Watson went up against cupcake AFC South defenses in his tenure in Houston.


You’re correct about Watson playing weak in division D’s while at Houston. Has anyone seen a breakdown of how Watson has played against the AFCN?


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I would like to take a break from the bickering, insults, and pettiness for a moment and ask a question that is relevant to the topic. Last year, the Bengals won their division and went all the way to the Super Bowl after seasons in which I believe they went 2 and 14 and 4 and 12. Does anyone have a sleeper team that might make some unexpected noise?


Denver with Wilson is an obvious choice. I think that Miami might surprise. Baltimore was 4th in the AFCN, and I think that they could contend. I really don't see much from the other "weaker" teams, that didn't make big off-season moves.

Jacksonville could surprise, with their additions and some improvement under Center .... who knows? Can Trevor Lawrence take that big a step forward?


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Doing a little looking, Watson’s record against the AFCN…
Bengals 1-1
Browns 2-1
Steelers 0-1
Ravens 0-2

I threw out the Browns’ games stats as I was only looking at common AFCN opponents.
Watson’s stat line against the AFCN is as follows…

In the 5 games he’s plays our foes he’s gone 101/149 which is a 67% completion rate. He’s thrown for 1157 yards, equating to 231.4 yards per game. He’s thrown 6 TDs to his 3 interceptions.


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Hmmm, and he's 1-4 against the competition. 231.4 yards per game fits right in with the Stefanski depress the pass offense. Imagine the posts here when the Browns lose games 20-17 or 17-14 with our 230M QB throwing for a little over 200 yards per game? This is not the AFC South or the NFC North, the AFC North plays defense.


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Originally Posted by YTownBrownsFan
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I would like to take a break from the bickering, insults, and pettiness for a moment and ask a question that is relevant to the topic. Last year, the Bengals won their division and went all the way to the Super Bowl after seasons in which I believe they went 2 and 14 and 4 and 12. Does anyone have a sleeper team that might make some unexpected noise?


Denver with Wilson is an obvious choice. I think that Miami might surprise. Baltimore was 4th in the AFCN, and I think that they could contend. I really don't see much from the other "weaker" teams, that didn't make big off-season moves.

Jacksonville could surprise, with their additions and some improvement under Center .... who knows? Can Trevor Lawrence take that big a step forward?

I agree w/your choices, although I don't think anyone would be shocked if Denver or Miami excel. The Jags choice is kinda similar to what Cinci did this past year. The Browns had a losing record and w/the upgrade at QB, they could become an elite team, but again......much like Denver, no one will be overly surprised.

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In the quest to win Championships, it is even more important to "keep the team together" than to build a team that can win a championship. Keeping the team together is even more important than executing on gameday.

It looks like 2022 is a rebuilding year for the Browns and rebuilding years rarely end with winning records, it could be a fun year coming up, if one is alright with losing. frown

The Dolphins, could have been a sleeper team, but then they changed their head coach, iirc.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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We're not rebuilding. We're Building. Back. Better. rolleyes

The 49ers are probably another team to watch. They were successful last year, but with all the big time moves elsewhere it feels like they are being slept on a bit. It'll be interesting to see if Lance can come out like Mahomes after the "redshirt" year. Though this is supposed to be an AFC thread, but I didn't want my droll humor to turn this political.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by YTownBrownsFan
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I would like to take a break from the bickering, insults, and pettiness for a moment and ask a question that is relevant to the topic. Last year, the Bengals won their division and went all the way to the Super Bowl after seasons in which I believe they went 2 and 14 and 4 and 12. Does anyone have a sleeper team that might make some unexpected noise?


Denver with Wilson is an obvious choice. I think that Miami might surprise. Baltimore was 4th in the AFCN, and I think that they could contend. I really don't see much from the other "weaker" teams, that didn't make big off-season moves.

Jacksonville could surprise, with their additions and some improvement under Center .... who knows? Can Trevor Lawrence take that big a step forward?

I agree w/your choices, although I don't think anyone would be shocked if Denver or Miami excel. The Jags choice is kinda similar to what Cinci did this past year. The Browns had a losing record and w/the upgrade at QB, they could become an elite team, but again......much like Denver, no one will be overly surprised.

I think the Jags are the only true "sleeper" team. If Lawrence makes a jump, they could make some noise.

As for Allen, I don't think his first two seasons were as bad as people are making it out to be. He had some blunders and some head scratching plays, but I've never seen a young quarterback look so comfortable in the pocket as I have Allen. He is the absolute best QB in the league at standing tall until the last possible minute. His pocket presence is second to none. And it's been that way since his second year in the league. He absolutely has no fear of the pass rush. With his height and frame, he can stand tall, survey the field, and deliver strikes.

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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
We're not rebuilding. We're Building. Back. Better. rolleyes

The 49ers are probably another team to watch. They were successful last year, but with all the big time moves elsewhere it feels like they are being slept on a bit. It'll be interesting to see if Lance can come out like Mahomes after the "redshirt" year. Though this is supposed to be an AFC thread, but I didn't want my droll humor to turn this political.

You are right. We certainly are not rebuilding.

I like SF a lot, too. I didn't talk about them because they are in the NFC. I do have my doubts about Lance. He looked like a fish out of water last year and his playing time actually decreased as the season progressed. The 49ers would probably be smart to keep Jimmy G, although he had surgery on his throwing shoulder and isn't even throwing yet.

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Originally Posted by Rishuz
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by YTownBrownsFan
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I would like to take a break from the bickering, insults, and pettiness for a moment and ask a question that is relevant to the topic. Last year, the Bengals won their division and went all the way to the Super Bowl after seasons in which I believe they went 2 and 14 and 4 and 12. Does anyone have a sleeper team that might make some unexpected noise?


Denver with Wilson is an obvious choice. I think that Miami might surprise. Baltimore was 4th in the AFCN, and I think that they could contend. I really don't see much from the other "weaker" teams, that didn't make big off-season moves.

Jacksonville could surprise, with their additions and some improvement under Center .... who knows? Can Trevor Lawrence take that big a step forward?

I agree w/your choices, although I don't think anyone would be shocked if Denver or Miami excel. The Jags choice is kinda similar to what Cinci did this past year. The Browns had a losing record and w/the upgrade at QB, they could become an elite team, but again......much like Denver, no one will be overly surprised.

I think the Jags are the only true "sleeper" team. If Lawrence makes a jump, they could make some noise.

As for Allen, I don't think his first two seasons were as bad as people are making it out to be. He had some blunders and some head scratching plays, but I've never seen a young quarterback look so comfortable in the pocket as I have Allen. He is the absolute best QB in the league at standing tall until the last possible minute. His pocket presence is second to none. And it's been that way since his second year in the league. He absolutely has no fear of the pass rush. With his height and frame, he can stand tall, survey the field, and deliver strikes.

I think you are right about Jax being the only true sleeper team. No one would be that surprised if Denver, Cleveland, or Miami had great years.

Watching Josh Allen is something to behold. I marveled at him many times, but I will just use that KC playoff game as an example. You are right that he was standing in the pocket until the last second and then delivering strikes downfield in the most pressurized situations. The guy was not intimidated by the pressure of the pass rush or the pressure of the situation. He stands so tall in the pocket. Then he takes off and makes huge runs that result in first downs in bad down and distance situations. I can't help but think of how they were using one of those animated virtual simulators of how to design the perfect QB and how Josh Allen would be the end result.

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As has been previously stated, a lot of the success of a QB being drafted has to do with the stability of the team, is the team rebuilding, transition, injuries, scheme, and coach. When you look at the QB's selected in 2017, the situation they were drafted into had a huge bearing on their success. Trubisky who went 2nd overall by the Bears had a two-year record of 9-23. QB wasn't the only issue the Bears had when they drafted Trubisky. Mahomes was next at #10 by KCC. The Chiefs were 23-9 the previous 2-seasons with 2 playoff appearances (1-2). Obviously, most of the pieces were in place before drafting Mahomes. Watson was next at #12 by the Houston Texans. The Texans were fresh off winning the AFC South in 2015 and 2016. The Texans were 18-14 over that time period with a 2-year playoff record of 1-2.

In the case of Mahomes and Watson, they both were drafted by playoff teams (each of the previous 2-years) and at a minimum had a winning team nucleus already built with stability at the head coach and FO. Trubisky was not so fortunate. The huge difference was Trubisky was drafted to carry the team and change its fortunes. Mahomes and Watson were drafted to hopefully upgrade the position on teams that were already established, stable, not rebuilding, played in a scheme that highlighted their skill set, and got a head coach that actually participated in drafting the player. Mahomes also got to sit his first year as KCC went 10-6 and won the AFC West again while going 0-1 in the playoffs. Watson played in Houston's first game after the benching of Savage. Watson proceeded to go 3-3 in his starts with the playoff Texans before tearing his ALC and being lost for the season. The Texans went 4-12 in 2017 but injuries outside Watson had a huge bearing in the team success. Watson was back in charge in 2018 with the playoff caliber roster now fully healed.

Mayfield was presented to an even worse situation than Trubisky. Coming off a 1-31 record the previous 2-years and a head coach whose seat was on blazing fire presented Mayfield situations the other 3 QB's have never experienced. Dealing with 4 head coaches in 4 years, stability was not something Mayfield was afforded as a Cleveland Brown taking over a 1-31 franchise.


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A couple of things about Baker's circumstances. First of all, I don't buy how bad the team has been around him. I think the Browns had the best roster in the league the last couple of years. I thought they had a very good roster in Baker's second season. I think Baker has made his supporting cast worse rather than the other way around.

Secondly, NFL teams would recognize it if Baker's situation was as dire as his fanbase claims it to be. They would make a move to trade for him. Houston did not want him in the trade. They have Davis Mills at qb. Indy didn't want him. Atlanta didn't want him. No team has traded for him. People point to his salary, but his salary isn't even high for a NFL qb. Guys who make more have been traded.

It's going to be nice to not hear how bad the Brown's supporting cast is anymore. It's going to be nice to not have to listen to the insane blaming of the coaching.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I think the Browns had the best roster in the league the last couple of years.

Should have stopped reading right there.

Best in the league? My goodness.

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Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I think the Browns had the best roster in the league the last couple of years.

Should have stopped reading right there.

Best in the league? My goodness.

Best 52/53 excluding 1 last year. Unfortunately, that 1 is the most important position. Two years ago, I don't know, the D had some rough spots.


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It's not just my opinion........many football analysts have claimed the Browns have had the best roster the last couple of years. The question mark in their minds was always w/the qb. It's always amazed me how many Cleveland fans have blamed everyone but Baker for the team's shortcomings.

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I think that was the sentiment prior to week 1. There was a healthy amount of assumption going into that (Higgins continuing to contribute, a motivated OBJ returning to form, etc.). Hooper was a disappointment, OBJ started the year "injured" and dropped a bunch of easy passes. Then there were the injuries.

IMO, injuries alone should put away any "best roster in the league" talk (since we're using hindsight here). But ignoring that, some assumptions didn't pan out (namely Higgins and OBJ).


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