DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Watson trade off the field III

Going to put this here as a continuation of the closed Depo turned to Watson thread.


There's a difference between defending someone when there is scant evidence against them and accusing someone when there is scant evidence against them.

Lawyers like to win. It's easier to defend because the burden of proof lies on the accuser. It's hard to win as an accuser when you don't have proof.

However, this might be a case where Buzbee can still win by losing. If he's intending to move to politics from the law (and he ran for mayor in the last cycle), he won't have to worry about clients looking at his recent W-L record. He might not be looking for clients at all. Voters will likely be swayed by the fact that he was willing to try the case at all. Buzbee's rich already and has more money than he can likely ever spend. It looks like he's pursuing a different kind of power now to me.

I would hate that. I want to know if any crimes were committed.

Like the Arthur Anderson case? Or the Adrian Peterson case? So your theory is that one lawyer wants to win and the other one doesn't care if he wins?

I think the tip of your shovel might be dull at this point. It's been doing a lot of digging.

I can see the campaign poster now. "I sucked at being a lawyer so let me be your mayor".

If my shovel is dull, it likely got that way from being aimed metaphorically at your hard head. Your shovel would be brown and slimy from the nonsensical drivel you've been scooping. (I write this with annoying brother-like love)

Unfortunately, we live in a world where it's a lot easier to sling garbage than it is to scrape it off. I wouldn't elect Buzbee to lead Houston's sanitation department, but Houston voters aren't me.

You're hilarious. So you think claiming an attorney wants to lose cases on purpose makes sense? Probably so. You're also in favor of believing a very successful attorney just rounds up a group of liars and that seems logical to you because you would like to paint him as some ambulance chaser which is entire career does not support at all. You tried to do the mental gymnastics to make that all a logical conclusion. You seem to have a problem with attorney's who represent victims and court. And usually wins. That must be your definition of garbage.

I could care less about the past. I'm looking at events and information surrounding this particular situation.

I never claimed he wanted to lose. He might see it as a win either way, so he was willing to roll the dice. He also could have been cocky enough to think he could win with evidence against his clients by using the media.

Your twisting my words into him wanting to lose is straight $#17 poster garbage.

So not caring if he wins means he doesn't care if he loses? You do realize that not caring if you win means if you lose it doesn't matter, right? How far is that from losing on purpose? Refusing to take someone's career as a whole and claim you're actually trying to evaluate a current situation holds no merit. And to try and act like losing cases has no impact on entering politics is in the first place conjecture that he's even going to retire from law and switch over to politics and secondly ignoring that taking on losing cases wouldn't be used as a political weapon against him. Maybe you should switch back to your all 22 women are liars and only watson is telling the truth shtick.

I realize and fully admit that "losing a case on purpose" is different than "not caring if you win or not". But it's not a big reach from one to the other. And it's certainly not a better argument.

There's a difference between not caring if something happens and wanting something to happen.

There you go trying to twist things into the worst possible light, just like you do with Watson.

Buzbee switching to politics isn't conjecture. He literally ran for mayor. He lost.

More evidence that Buzbee just likes being on TV: link

No wonder you feel so close to this guy. He has a thing for manure, too: link

He's "plotting" a food show? You're getting even more desperate. He currently isn't running for any office. To claim he will at some point in the future will run for political office is the very definition of conjecture.

You either missed this part of my post or decided to ignore it.


I doubt that watson's attorney at 80 years old, Rusty Hardin has any other aspirations in terms of expanding into a different career.

But to claim one is an attention seeking attorney and one is not defies logic. All one needs to do is compare their client list to know they've made their name based on famous clients.

It is a cop-out, but it's also reality. Being very very good at something done at the highest levels has gotten countless people out of consequences. I didn't say they SHOULDN'T be held to the same standards, I said that they're not (I made an observation, not a judgement).

Allegedly. There's a ton we don't know. The 'creepy' argument is simply, based on what little we know, Watson is (at best) a total creep. IMO, we "know" that.


.... and yes, I did quote your post from the other thread and put my response here.

I'm failing to understand the logic here. Watson has denied the allegations of all these women. So if you believe Watson then how can he be considered "creepy"? To claim you base him being creepy on "what you know" that would have to mean you believe some of the allegations wouldn't it?

I also brought up people like Michael Vick and Kareem Hunt. They may not have paid the price you would have felt was appropriate, but in both these cases along with many others they were punished, did seek help and apologized for their actions. In almost every such case I think the claim could be made that they got preferential treatment, but their were consequences for their actions. Thus far all watson has been is rewarded.

The 2019 Mayoral run wasn't his first foray into politics.

Here's a longer read that gives a more thorough, almost biographical look at Buzbee:
https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-p...um=referral&utm_campaign=sharebutton


For some reason, I'm not surprised by his affinity for sharks.

Whoa...........that article makes him look like, well, bad.

" spanning the past year or so that link Buzbee to: (a) a drunken blonde with the central-casting name of Lindy Lou Layman who had to be ejected from a party at his $14 million River Oaks mansion by the Houston Police Department after destroying an estimated $300,000 worth of art, including two Warhols; (b) the purchase of a $600,000 World War II–era tank that either did or did not storm the beach at Normandy but was certainly squatting in front of said mansion, to the delight of gawkers and the consternation of his more reserved neighbors; and (c) a burglary at the same mansion, during which an estimated $21 million worth of art, technology, guns, and jewelry was stolen. “But for the fact that my weapon misfired, I would have shot one of them,” Buzbee posted on Facebook later that same day."

That's 36 million right there.

And this gem: " That would include 30 to 40 percent of the billions of dollars he’s won against companies like BP and Ford;"







Yeah, I can see where he saw opportunity to make bank with these 22 ladies. If he gets 30-40% of any settlements........do the math. I mean, IF the cases get settled out of court at say, even $100,000.00 per claim, that's $2.2 million. At 30% of that, it's a nice $660,000 pay day. If he loses every single case, what has he lost? Not much. Go after a high profile person/athlete on the chance you may bet paid, and if you lose, you basically lose not much at all.

Watson's main defense is that everything was consensual. People bring up the points that he had WAY too many massage therapists, preferred under or un-qualified individuals, and didn't run any of that through the Texans, and instead found them via social media. One of his "handlers" mentioned something to the effect of "these guys don't get told 'no' very often". To me, that points to him being (at best) a sex addict who likes to use unqualified massage therapists as sort of prostitutes.

Your points could be valid- lots of massage therapists- doing math over time isn't that many. Depends on what your definition of a sex addict is.....talk about a broad topic- is a married man who has sex twice in one day a sex addict- some would say yes. JMHO, he said, she said....with a "slick" lawyer involved for the ladies. I don't see how he's guilty of anything in civil court even. There is NO evidence yet.
Innocent until proved guilty. Public opinion, Christ was crucified for nothing but good- anything can happen in the world.

If he looks bad when committing no criminal offenses against women you must think watson looks terrible. So I guess having a someone who acts like an azz at a party is an indictment of someone? You guys are really reaching now.

And you might have a point about some made up money grab if you refuse to look at his former clients and career. He's a very successful attorney at what he does. His reputation on the practice of law gives zero indication he's some scam artist. This isn't a Better Call Saul situation no matter how you try to portray it. If that were the case you must think every lawyer that brings civil suits to court are scum bags.

Actually watson used more than 50 massage therapists in that time frame.

New Lawsuit Alleges Deshaun Watson Used 'More Than Fifty Different Women for Massages'

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/04/05/deshaun-watson-lawsuits-latest-massage-sexual-assault

There were warnings about his behavior and even the Texan's own attorney tried to settle with these women quite some time ago................

5 New Women Claim Deshaun Watson Had a Reputation in the Massage Therapy Community of Masturbating During Sessions; Texans Owner’s Lawyer Tried to Help Watson Settle Cases

Others wonder why if Watson was just going in for massages how that ended up with him having oral sex with the women. SI did an extensive feature on Watson and his behavior. While none of it is a smoking gun of his guilt, it does paint a clear picture of how things look from the outside looking in.

SI also interviewed five women—not among either the 22 plaintiffs or the list of 18 therapists who supported Watson in testimonials provided to his defense attorney’s firm—who worked with or were contacted by Watson, including one who both worked on Watson and referred him to other licensed massage therapists, or LMTs.

One thing is clear: Warnings about Watson had been percolating in the Houston massage therapy community for some time. Some were mundane—he was a last-minute booker, do not expect a tip. Others were far more troubling. Two LMTs told SI they were warned last year by others in their profession about Watson’s inappropriate conduct, including his making sexually explicit motions on the table or insisting on using a small towel that would inadequately cover his genital area, rather than the standard massage draping. And that same industry veteran Solis’s colleague contacted says she talked to Watson about his conduct after an appointment she set up in 2019—the one detailed to SI in March by a woman we called Mary, who has not filed a lawsuit.

Twenty-one of the 22 lawsuits present a civil assault claim, pointing to three violations of the Texas penal code: indecent assault (which includes touching another person with your genitals or causing them to come into contact with your seminal fluids without consent), assault and harassment...................

A couple of anonymous NFL players gave their opinion on what was going on with Watson.

It is what most normal people were thinking as well.

Adds the NFC defensive back: “I don’t know guys who use 22 different masseuses,” referring to the number of plaintiffs during an interview in March. He was expressing skepticism about the plaintiffs—the number itself, that one player would have worked with that many therapists, seems so unrealistic. But the number is likely far higher. If you count all 22 plaintiffs as having worked with Watson as well as a former plaintiff who dropped her suit “for now”, the 18 therapists who issued statements in support of Watson through Hardin’s firm and other therapists who spoke to SI (and whose accounts were verified), Watson has worked with at least 44 therapists over the past few years. He has reached out to more than that.

https://blacksportsonline.com/2021/...awyer-tried-to-help-watson-settle-cases/

There's a lot more information at the link provided.

Attacking their attorney by some on this board like he's a scum bag goes against everything he has accomplished in his career and is just a tool to undermine watson's victims. Don't let them fool you with some bait and switch con game.

I won't try to claim that watson may not have some sort of sexual addiction problem. But assuming all of these massage therapists were prostitutes seems to be his undoing. If sex was the objective it would seem a lot more logical he would be calling escort services.

I take it you didn't read the entire Texas weekly article? I could care less about the party stuff. I'm more looking at his relationship with a former judge and their shady backroom dealings. His admission that he filed some lawsuits for the publicity. He's stated that he likes to go to smearing the opponent early and often as a tactic. He's proud to consider himself a shark. He's got one tattooed on his forearm, has door handles shaped like them, and even has them painted on his planes.

Is it normal to have that many massage therapists? No. But, his life isn't normal. Would you have preferred it if he went out to the club partying every night and picked up random drunk women from there like many young athletes? Would 50 of those be better?

He's not a normal person. He's a rich, famous athlete. Most of the people he meets want something from him. I can see how trying to find women that aren't after something could be refreshing. Yes, he got in contact with them for massages. Sometimes they hit it off and had sex. They were sober, he didn't drug them. They should have been perfectly capable of saying no, leaving. They didn't. The whole intimidation angle doesn't hold a ton of water with me. These women are accustomed to being around mostly naked men. They knew he was a professional athlete from his Instagram profile going in. They're trained how to react if they feel uncomfortable. There is no evidence of violence.

He likes women. Sometimes he has sex with them. So he must at least be a sex addict? If they never told him no, was he just supposed to know?

Just had an interesting question pop into my head about all of this DW drama, I wonder how many athletes today are doing the same thing Watson did, and looking to Instagram massage therapist for sex on the side? Or even just massages? Is this a thing, or is he alone in this type of thing? Somehow, I doubt others aren't doing it too.

I know that won't change things about the DW situation, but if they want him to talk about women that didn't come forward, then this should be fair game too. The NFL and other sports would not be happy if it came out that this is common practice, yet the Patriots' owner has kind of shown us that it is. It makes me wonder if maybe DW IS GUILTY, and pro sports is just a breading ground for rich rapists.

My word you seem to point the finger at others reaching conclusions while others for doing the same.


Most good attorney's use attacking the opponent as part of their strategy. Every prosecutor in America does the same thing.

Is this what you're talking about? Since when is that an admission of anything?


You mean like this?


And if you're looking for a good attorney to represent you in a lawsuit, this is a bad thing how again?

Desperation is becoming more and more apparent with each passing day.

Even other NFL players said it wasn't normal.

Yes, they should have known that kind of behavior was expected and left before it ever happened.


God knows f no violence occurred everything is just peachy. And yes, your own excuses and rationalization shows the very reason why these women are intimidated. People will attack their character, treat them like they're prostitutes and make excuses for their attackers actions. You sit and post why they're intimmidated while saying you don't buy it.


Maybe you should know if sex is what you're expecting you call an escort service and not a massage therapist.

If "by the same thing" you mean go into shadier/less legit areas of industries they regularly deal with to score some notches on their bedpost. NFL athletes have spoken out about Watson's unusually high number of therapists, but I guarantee you that they didn't have sex with a single one of theirs. Robert Kraft was found to be frequenting massage parlors for the same reason that (I believe) Watson was trawling social media for inexperienced massage therapists. The difference between Kraft and Watson was that with Kraft, everything was consensual, and Watson (allegedly) it wasn't. It's a razor-thin line, though.

One other difference. Kraft went to a seedy massage parlor. In watson's case we are supposed to believe that he called dozens of massage therapists that must all be independently shady.

J/C

Fine, all these women are innocent flowers. It's impossible for a woman to ever be the one to initiate sex. It's impossible for women to lie. It's impossible for lawyers to seek to manufacture a case in search of a payday or headlines. There aren't 22 women who would be willing to try to entrap a rich athlete in the whole world.

A guy can't just like sex and accede to frequent advances. A guy has to be a criminal deviant if he has sex with someone other than his (nonexistent) wife.

You all are obviously right.

Haven't been following this thread but had a thought.

If I was Goodell, I wouldn't suspend Watson this season. I would let all the Civil cases run their course and then suspend him next season.
Yes, I would look at his contract set-up. And yes, I would be petty about it.

From the PF thread...

This is what I was trying to get at. There's a line somewhere between creeping on social media for happy ending massages and what the allegations are. We know he's a creep, but is he also a predator?

Seedy Massage Parlor vs For Sale section of Social Media. You're splitting some fine hairs right there.

Yeah, instagram is a seedy for sale section. I don't seem to be the one reaching here.

All 22 of them? Mmmmm hmmmm.....

I didn't say you were reaching. I said you were splitting hairs.

Since the one woman we know the identity of that posted on Instagram about her massage therapy has not been shown to have done is try to use it in any way as a form of solicitation I believe your comparison is slanted in its wording. So I have no idea where you're coming up with this "for sale section" on social media. It was actually a professional page listing her services and contact information. I think if one believes your description of the events was accurate you may have a point. But there's nothing about it that appears that way unless you word it in such a way as you did.

You do realize there are names for people who lump an entire group of women under one category to defame them all using a broad brush as the defense to support the word of one man. Women know them all.

Not sure how you landed there from that one sarcastic post. Gimme a break, I needed a Snickers.

I've never tried to paint them all the same. I've consistently said that I don't know where they lie on the sinner to saint spectrum. You consistently imply that they are on the Saint end of the spectrum. I'm just pointing out that the spectrum has two ends and they could be at the other side. Same for Watson. People keep painting him as the worst kind of sinner, but that's not the only possibility. There's not enough information available to reach a well-supported conclusion.

All that I really know is that some very smart people thought bringing in Watson was the right move. They're known for doing extensive research.

I hope they got it right.

I've never said that they all fall on the Saint side. I have said it's a ridiculous notion to portray that all 24 of his accusers, 22 of them filing suit, are all on the sinner side. Yet they didn't speak to a single victim during their "research". I've said that when almost 50% of all the massage therapists you've seen over the past couple of years have accused you of sexual impropriety it would be crazy to think they're all a bunch of liars. I've shown that even NFL players consider 50 of them is a crazy number. I've stated that while you have used a diversionary tactic in trying to undermine their lawyer because you think he's "looking for fame and publicity", you refuse to hold watson's attorney to the same standard who has a long list of famous clients as well. I've pointed out the success of the victims attorney and the resources he possesses. That he is in the position, just like watson's lawyer, to pick and choose his clients. That accepting clients that are nothing more than a bunch of liars would only serve to undermine his career. So far none of that seems to matter to you.

The "They're all a bunch of hookers and liars" theory has seemed from the beginning to be an attack on all of these women and then it moved to an attack on their attorney which from a standpoint of his legal career has no basis in fact. And then, even after all that, even after one of them getting death threats, you claimed you didn't buy that such victims feel threatened. Of course they do. And there are reasons for that. I don't believe tou understand the bravery it takes for a woman to come forward against a rich and powerful person.

Your argument has been that they can't all be lying. My argument is that I don't know that that's true. I've never said they are all hookers. I have said that they all could be lying, not that they all did lie. I don't know what happened. I do know that there are a multitude of possibilities not ruled out by the available evidence.

Multiple people have given reasons why they didn't reach directly to Buzbee or his clients.

I see you still haven't read the article on Buzbee. Looking at his actions and past critically isn't a diversionary tactic. It's trying to get the full picture and as much information as possible.

I've never said death threats weren't threatening. There's no evidence that Watson threatened them, and based on their alleged actions after the encounters it seems in many cases it's unlikely that they did feel threatened, if those allegations are true.

There are too many conflicting, uncorroborated accusations flying to know what is true from a distance.

Is bravery the primary sentiment fueling their coming forward ,or was it greed, or was it something else? It takes bravery to face a rich and powerful assaulter. That's not necessarily what happened here.

Eating multiple bags of candy a day is crazy to most NFL players. That's part of DK Metcalf's regular diet. Some players have quirks. Some people like variety for variety's sake. Massages really aren't that strange a vice for a guy that works out all the time. Sex isn't either with his likely testosterone level and the release of endorphins it can bring about.

Most OL/IDL (who are primarily the ones I see pointing at the number as being "crazy") probably don't draw as many women as the fit face of the franchise.

I wonder what Ocho Cinco's take would be?

If you go looking for something in particular, you can probably find people (including NFL players) willing to tell that to you.

I've read the entire article. Your points in some cases were ridiculous. Nowhere did Buzzbee admit he took cases for publicity as you claimed. That was false. You made the claim that calling himself a shark was a negative thing yet anyone hiring an attorney would want someone to fight tooth and nail for them. You also seem to dismiss all of the very positive parts of that article and focus only what you claim to be negative.

You're still making excuses for Watson. A massage and sex are two different things. Calling someone for a massage and thinking that is a call for sex is crazy. And death threats? I didn't say watson had anything to do with them. I said women are aware of the dangers they will encounter when accusing rich and powerful people.

Your hypotheticals are ones which are all conclusive for an entire group of 22 women. And in each and everyone of them you indicate what you claim may be true makes the women out to be greedy, money grabbing sex workers and their attorney, who has never been proven of any wrong doing in his law career, is an ambulance chasing scum bag.

And once again you ignore that Watson's attorney also has a long list of famous clients which drew publicity to his law practice which is yet another claim you made as a negative. But I guess it's no longer a negative in your eyes when watson's attorney does the exact same thing. Well life is a two way street. If one of them is a scum bag for getting publicity by taking on famous cases, so is the other one.

"Except when they're not" is, I believe, the main argument that has to be hashed out. Robert Kraft, for one (if he's being honest), would probably argue you on this one.