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The last Baker thread is locked. I thought P-Dawg had a very thoughtful post on Baker and the Browns. Unfortunately, P-Dawg was attacked and the thread was soon locked. I think he was very balanced and calm in posting his thoughts. I also think that P-Dawg thinks/thought much higher of Baker than I did, but I don't have a problem w/that. People are entitled to their opinions and he certainly did not attack the character of anyone who viewed the situation differently that he did. It is my hope that we all follow P-Dawgs lead and express our opinions on Baker and the Browns w/out the usual character attacks that always ruin threads, especially the ones where Baker is being talked about. This is not intended as a Watson and his alleged crimes thread. Anyway, here is what P-Dawg had to say.


[quote]I was a fan of Baker. I liked his swagger. I liked how we would just let it rip. He wasn't without faults but he was the best QB I had seen in Cleveland since the return. One of his biggest faults was his QBR in the 4 th quarter. I could explain some of it away be cause we were so heavy run first in the 4 th he wasn't really getting A chance. The thing is it happened over and over. I felt bad for him getting injured. He was able to still played fairly well until the Cards game where he completely broke his shoulder.

I thought it took a lot of guts to keep playing. He really shouldn't have. He was no longer helping the team. I hoped we would play Case but we didn't. If we would have I believe we would have had better luck. I don't blame the season one Pittsburgh game on Baker. Our pass blocking was atrocious on the right side. We should have made adjustments in protection early on but it is what it is.

My support for Baker began to wane after his announcement that he made about not playing the Cincy game. Something about it seemed off to me. We then get the Browns public interest in Watson . The post he put on Instagram was dumb but I still felt for him. I thought the adult at QB comment was disrespectful. His reaction to it was childish, making me wonder about him further. His trade request was immature in my mind, especially when he tried to pick the team to be traded to. I found it odd that none of his teammates were standing up for him. Hooper alluded to problems in the locker room when he was announced at his press conference. Coupled with all that happened with OBJ I really started to want him to go. I heard from someone who would know that he was a problem in the locker room was the final straw.

We should hold on to him until we can get the most possible for him. I don't care if he gets upset or not. Hopefully he will learn and grow up.

Just my ramblings about the Mayfield saga./quote]

Tim Couch with the 2019,2020,2021 roster Bake had .

No offense, bro..........but, while I think Baker is vastly overrated by his fans, I also think he is a far better qb than Tim Couch ever was. Baker has a much better arm, he's tougher, and can make bigger plays at times. They resemble each other in that they were/are immature and struggle reading coverages. They also have another thing in common......the local fans and media think/thought much higher of them than the rest of the NFL world did. Both had/have had a ton of excuses made for their own shortcomings.

I'm not asking you to agree w/any of this. Just stating my opinion.

NO offense taking Vers, just glad to talk football and ya know it has lots of different views and opinions.


I think Couch being 6'4 may have been able to see more of the field than Baker, I believe it's like what 2000 yds difference in passing total. Baker has Couch, but again look at the line the RB's and WR's between the two.


Good discussion, thank you !

Good point about the height. It's a real problem being a short qb in the NFL. Brees overcame it, but others who are good are also superior athletes who can run around and buy time. Guys like Wilson and Murray. I do have to add that Murray is another Oklahoma QB who is terribly immature. Gawd, I loathe how he pouts all by himself on the bench.

I agree w/you that Baker had much better weapons than Couch. I just think they both were/are bad qbs and emotionally underdeveloped.

Btw.........remember back in the day when Couch was the qb and we would talk about him. Most of the board hated Peen and I for ripping Couch. The Kentucky fans were crazed. Much worse than the Oklahoma/Texas fans. Remember Leslie Dawg? That is a county in Kentucky and where Couch was from. He used to PM me all the time and told me how they were plotting to get me and Tim was involved in the planning. LOL...........he said they were going to cut my "you know what off" and shove it down my throat. Oh man.......that was hilarious!

Sorry, I got off track. Back to P-Dawgs thoughts.

Yeah I remember some. As far as P-Dawgs thoughts,well, I like PD as a person and fan,very glad I met him and know him.

Talking Baker is like putting another name of the jersey, he's not a FQB here as all can see, he's gone so ,not sure what to say .

looking forward not back !

I was always a fan of No Bakes. Yummy.

I talked myself into Baker after we picked him. He talked himself off of the team (it seems inevitable anyways.) We probably needed the swagger when he first got here, but we eventually needed more development. Basic competence isn't enough any more.

Now I find myself trying to talk myself into Watson, at least it's not about the football. He definitely has been better in the pros than I expected. Wasn't sure he had the arm, but he throws darts now.

j/c

I'm about done with the Baker Mayfield talk. Not because he isn't still current or relevant to us CLE fans during this offseason, but because there is no new angle left for us to cover. We've talked about his size, his 'speed,' his temperament, his mechanics, his ability to read coverages, his wife, his Progressive commercials- it's been exhausting. And now, for me- it's exhausted.

So tonight, Imma say my piece (in the most general of ways), and be done. No stats, no film study breakdowns, no 'psych evlas,' no Berea Sociology- none of the stuff that's been covered in the most minute detail. This is just me, Joe Average Browns Fan- weighing in on where I am, at the moment.


_________________



True to form, I was OK with 6 finishing his rookie contract with another year under center. I was willing to see if a healthy version of him could recreate some of the Game that made many, if not most of us, excited to watch Browns games again. I was never in denial of his shortcomings, but I always thought there was more upside than down. FQB? Not really. Better than anything we've had since 99? Quite possibly. Probably. I was willing to give him that last year to see if "last half/2020" could turn into something, going forward. See the season/negotiate the future after the 22 season.

So... calling 2021 season an aberration, I was good with seeing him for one more year. And I was all set to watch him with a critical eye.
And then came the way 6 finished the season. And the tweets. And the start of another patented Cleveland Browns Off-season Soap Opera that I thought we'd finally gotten out of our system.


And I started to be OK with the idea of moving on, since by then I could smell that old familiar aroma of dysfunction once again- and a lot of it was coming from the evolving dynamics between 6 and FO. A plucky Bake is a 6 you want to follow onto the field. A bitter Bake is someone I'm afraid to trust. The balance of 'upside/downside' began to shift.

Then came the Watson stuff, which p's me off, too (Browns can't ever do something clean and easy, can they? ). And the 6 dynamics shift even further.

Bottom line: I adopted 6 the moment he took the field. It's what this fan does. I stuck with him through all of it, and was ready to stick with him for another go-round. He's on his way out now, so I thank him for the wins. I thank him for the energy he brought to a moribund franchise, I thank him for doing his part to take us 2 deep into the playoff tournament. As a fan who has been starved since Bernie v. Horseface, that actually counts for something. I wish him well, as he writes his next chapters. If he leaves us, and finds his way to a Super Bowl matchup against the Cleveland Browns while wearing a different uniform- I hope he loses that game. Under any other circumstances than that, Clemdawg is not 6's enemy.

If we soon find ourselves in the thick of a SB race over the next few years, some of my gratitude will be reserved for this young man for his role in our turnaround. It would have been nice to see him hoist the Lombi in a CLE uni, but failing that, I just want to leave this discussion with some memories of what it felt like to be an old, tired, cynical Browns fan when he took the field for our tribe. This is what we got to see that year:

J/C

In terms of holding onto him until we can “get something” … that also means we are hoping someone takes on his whole contract. To do that, IMO, we’ll have to wait until the season when someone gets injured.

I think Berry has allowed us the financial flexibility to do so, I’m just not sure we’ll think keeping him this entire summer will be worth it

If we find a trade partner for Baker my attitude on his contract has changed a bit. My feeling was we were going to have to eat a portion of his contract. We may still have to do that if a team is only willing to take him on with the current contract in place.

If a team is looking at him on a 2-4 year deal, then it is easy for a team to structure the contract in to friendly terms.

Baker doesn't suck. He may not be worth the 18-19 mil a year where he sits, but he isn't a 8 mil a year QB either. It won't be hard for some team to spread things out making baker a $12 mil plus incentives QB.

I think now that some time has passed, the Baker camp understands there isn't a 25 mil a year contract in the waiting. Soon enough Baker is going to want to get the show on the road and signal he is ready to do that.

Regarding the trade, I think the league is going to be as strategic as possible this time of the year. Nobody is in dire straits, games are a long way off. They know we have to get rid of him, and they know his $$ feel like a boat anchor to us.

We're either going to have to eat some of his $$, or accept less in a return. Personally, I don't like gambling that someone will pay up for a QB when theirs goes down. Let's get this drama done with now.

Oh, and excellent post, Clem.

I really wanted Baker to be the guy, I think most of us did. And for what it's worth, we improved as a team during his stint here. We rose from the bottom to the middle of the pack. Made the playoffs, won a playoff game. But I think the feeling from the team is that was about as far as we going to go with Baker. One playoff appearance in 4 years. And with how the AFC has escalated, our 2020 performance is not likely to get us back into the post-season. In 2020 we got into the playoffs by beating a team resting its starters by 2 points on the last weekend. And our playoff win was against a QB that played like he was on crutches, and we needed 5 turnovers to do that. One direct TD from turnovers, and a few short fields. Yes, it was great. But we will need more to get to back to the playoffs.

The numbers are out there on Baker. He has never finished better than 26th in the NFL in completion percentage (among QBs with 100+ attempts). More picks over these 4 years than any other QB. We've seen the 4th quarter numbers. Baker has the arm to make any NFL throw, but he does not make them often enough. Yes, it was said that we was going to be QB going into next year. And for the first time in the history of organized sports such a comment turned out to not be true. </sarcasm>. The team did say that if they had a shot at a top-tier QB they were going to pursue it. I believe that to be true as neither Baker or his wife has denied it. And that is what they did.

I do not know what the future holds for him. Best of luck to him, wherever that is. Unless, of course, he is playing against us.

JMHO, Baker has little man syndrome. He's an overachiever. He's an average to below average NFL QB. I don't feel sorry for any athlete who's making more money than most people earn in a life time- they earn in a game. Hope Watson leads us to SB, Go Browns!!!!

You know things have gone to hell when you use an agenda to call this an attack....


Giving watson a free pass on his immaturity while railing on Baker's is one sided. I guess you'll now consider that truth an attack.

From the last Baker thread:


[quote]Awe...... You blame me for someone else throwing a tantrum? I asked if watson should be held to the same standard as Baker is because of watson's actions. It's a simple question. If I had known his position I wouldn't have needed to ask him the question. And not only did he not directly answer the question, you also didn't. But that's what's become of this place. Avoid the issue and blame the one that is bringing it up. Your kind won't change anything. You may as well be banging your head against the wall. You dodge and blame anyone that follows a narrative you don't agree with. Watson demanded a trade because he didn't get to hand pick his own HC. You better hope he does a good job picking coaches.

Then people lambaste Baker and give watson a free pass. But that's something you don't want to address. It seems that neither did Pdawg. Instead you try and portray it as my fault I brought up the obvious comparison. You are hilarious./quote]

And that was in response to Memphis. But of course you don't want to put my response in context. That wouldn't put your accusation in a favorable light. So do you think it's fair any any way to not bring up what watson did to the Texans into question if we are attacking Baker for almost the exact same conduct when he was with the Texans? Maybe you can reach outside yourself to address the actual point rather than go on some personal tirade and avoid it.

Baker and the public was told he was gong to be our starter in 2022. He along with the rest of us were lied to.

watson was told he would be included in the choosing of their next head coach. He was lied to.

The response from both was to demand a trade. According to some that means one is immature without addressing that the response from both was similar.

Once again you don't actually address the issue but the one who brought it up.

Thanks Vers, for once I thought I got the last word and you ruined it for me! lol!

I don't feel you are using me (through my post) to further any agenda. I know your feelings on Baker. They don't match up with mine obviously. The thing is people can agree to disagree and that's ok by me.

I' m not one to post my beliefs over and over, not to mention nobody really cares what I think anyways. lol! I will say it again for Pit that I think we made a deal with the devil bringing in Watson. The thing is this thread is not about Watson and trying to tie one's opinion of one QB to another is BS.

Thanks Deisle, I'm glad that I met you as well. If it wasn't for you I wouldn't be driving a MKZ. lol

I know we disagree on Baker. I have no problem w/that and I don't think you do, either. Different opinions are actually a good thing. There are just four or so people who have to constantly resort to personal attacks. I'm trying my best to ignore those guys and I probably messed-up by pointing out that I don't think you were throwing a tantrum because now the door is open. But again, you didn't throw a tantrum and it was a Baker thread and not a Watson thread and while I think far less of Baker as a player and teammate than you do, I can still appreciate a thoughtful post on the topic.

Actually my question is more about a double standard between Watson and Baker as to their conduct in similar situations. And you are right that this isn't what the thread is "supposed to be about". But since it was vers who brought it up to begin with in his very first paragraph of the thread, he opened that door with a gusto.

We agree that we made a deal with the devil. I'm not sure how that addresses the double standard issue I brought up in terms of their actions under similar circumstances. That's all I was asking to begin with. And still not a single poster has addressed that.

And still you refuse to address it.

It doesn't address it. They both showed immaturity from what I can see. I think some people's argument about Baker is that he has been immature his entire life. I was not one of those people but the more I learned the more my opinion has change. Watson has not shown the same history.

But Watson's exit wasn't immature. He was making a stand for social justice.

Baker was just upset Stefanski didn't ask him to the upcoming dance after they got tired of his too cool for school routine.

Thanks for the reply.

That was a pretty good response in a funny, silly sort of way. Humor is always appreciated.

j/c:

He got this one right!

What's weird is that we hired Freddie in part because he was the guy Baker wanted.

I'm surprised (or maybe I shouldn't be) that this hasn't gotten more traction.

You have been around long enough to not be surprised. Again, this place is like an alternative universe when it comes to Baker.

It seems we are in full rewrite history mode. Following on from Baker the Person, we've now got The Bake Show... Purely and exercise in piling on negative criticism when I don't see any new angle or topic, just rehashing and an opportunity to try and put Bake in the most negative of lights. We've seen that apparently a torn shoulder, broken humerus and harness wasn't the reason for Baker struggling and didn't make that much difference. We've seen the history of OBJ and his never having wanted to be in CLE be rewritten. We've seen comments that we went to the playoffs because of rhe team but Baker is the reason all by himself that we lost games and didn't go to the payoffs this year. We've seen excuses for other positions thru injury but that doesn't get extended to Baker, quite the opposite. We've seen aims at the beginning of rhe season that Baker had the best Wr group in the NFL (remember those agenda driven posts?) to Watson needs better WR. Hey, we even have an new reliable if secret insider source that says bad things about Baker and the locker room !

No wonder you were blanked on the question you raised. And no wonder the OP avoids addressing this stuff. Just like his post to Mac the other day that didn't remotely address the content and football talk in a post.... This was on the same or the next day after liking another post that talked about posters not addressing content in posts. Literally can't make this stuff up, but for anyone paying attention we've seen the hypocrisy and agenda stuff before, so no surprise.

Baker's essentially gone. Hopefully we get something in return via a trade. Judging him on his 2021 play on the field is more than stupid. Judging on his 2020 performance across the entire season Baker was pretty decent. Looking at the last 9 games of 2020 Baker was actually really good. But be damned with that, let's pile on and reinvent history!

Good to see you, Vers.

I wanted to like Baker so much. He seemed to have that attitude that we needed with that chip on his shoulder. He showed a lot of promise with the throws that he could hit. It was fun riding the roller coaster watching him in 2018. 2019 was obviously a different story, but then right back to 2020 when he gave us all hope again. Then 2021, which you laid out pretty well.

His style of play and attitude I think mimics the fan base surrounding him: a vacillation between “holy cow, how is it possible for someone to do something like that!?” To “What in the blue hell was he thinking on that play!?!?” The pendulum swung wide, both with his style of play and his attitude.

I was not thrilled when we signed Watson given his current situation off the field. There will always be a part of me that will lament Baker not being the guy here. Part of me also worries this is the “turning point” where the somber piano music plays in his 30 for 30 special right before he cranks off 3 Super Bowl wins with some other franchise, haha. I guess we’ll see.

I have not seen anything new on Watson... I am not comfortable with all these allegations but I don't want the Browns to be screwed out of all those draft picks for nothing. Guess we are still in wait and see mode.

I’m not aware of anything new? Please inform.
Also, if 20 women had consensual sex with him how does that make him a predator? Does just having multiple sexual partners classify you as a predator?
Am i a predator for having had multiple sexual partners?

I think he's talking about the 18 that came out in support of DW, and a judge ruled that he has to disclose whether he had sexual relations with them.

Hey man, I was hoping you would post over here. I refuse to go anywhere near the Political forum. We disagree on Baker's potential. I'm okay w/that and you were able to disagree w/me w/out all the childish character attacks that others have to resort to. I hope to see you in this forum more often.

No tab, you are not of the guys I was referring to. In fact, just yesterday I was thinking that maybe for the first time ever, you and I are both going to be in agreement on our new QB. I really think you are going to love what Watson brings to the field.