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#1939023 04/16/22 10:27 AM
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Another poster brought up Watson's ranking in The Bake Show thread. I've actually tried to rank the qbs before but would become frustrated because it is very hard to do. For example, who should be higher between Burrow and Herbert? I do think there are tiers of QBs that make things a bit more clear. I also think that current rankings and "starting a team with..." need to be differentiated. I'll take a stab at the top to maybe middle tiers. I will also include last year's PFF ranking where applicable and put them in parentheses after the individual's name.

ELITE: I consider elite QBs as guys who can elevate their teammates to become better players. These are guys who can perform at a high level in the clutch. They can make plays when the play call is not very good and/or when the defensive play call is great. They can turn disasters into miracles. They pick up first downs when their team is behind the chain and in crucial moments. They may have bad moments and a few bad games, but you know you have a chance to win each and every week w/that guy behind center.

Tom Brady [PFF #2]; Aaron Rodgers [#5]; Joe Burrow [#1]; Justin Herbert [#4]; Josh Allen [#3]; Deshawn Watson [NA]; Patrick Mahomes [#11]. That is seven guys that I consider elite. I don't have them in any particular order. I will say a few words about each.

Brady: He can never receive enough credit for how he elevates the play of his teammates. The Bucs were 7 and 9 before he got there. They won the Super Bowl. He is the ultimate competitor and he elevates the entire culture of his organization.

Rodgers: He's the most talented qb I have ever seen. He has a gift to perfectly place the ball. He can make every throw from any angle. He has been clutch in the past, but these last two playoff runs were disappointing. Also, I am not a fan of his drama. But, he's just so talented and accomplished so much that he can't be omitted from the list.

Allen: He is like the perfect qb from a physical perspective. He's big. He's strong. His arm strength is probably the best in the league. He is also tough. He's worked very hard on his game and his teammates love him. That performance against KC in the playoffs was maybe the best performance I have ever witnessed by a qb.

Burrow: He improved his arm strength during the off-season last year. This guy is a gamer. He played w/great skill guys, but his OL sucked. He has the ability to make big plays when things break down or not going well. I think he is the second best leader of any qb in the league, only trailing Brady. I worry about Joe getting injured a lot.

Herbert: Another guy w/great measurables and a huge arm. He is also a much better athlete and runner than some give him credit for. I worry that he might be hampered by having such a clueless head coach.

Watson: Great leader and competitor. Can beat you w/his arm and legs. Had one of the greatest seasons ever recorded despite playing in horrific conditions. He is excellent at making key plays when things break down. It's deflating for a defense when you have a team backed up at 3rd and 12, get a big pass rush, cover the receivers and then have a QB make a miraculous play w/either his arm or legs to get the first down. I am concerned that the local fans and media are going to make his life miserable.

Mahomes: He's right there w/Rodgers in making unreal throws from all platforms. Maybe even more-so. He's like a Harlem Globetrotter on the football field. A magician. Don't blitz this guy. He will make you pay. He's another guy that picks up first downs when everything is stacked against him. I do think his fundamentals are poor and they need to improve and his second half performance against the Bengals in the playoffs left a lot to be desired. But, he's a great young man and he will work to get better.

I'll be back w/more. I will rank the guys if I was starting a team. For example, Brady and Rodgers would not be on that list due to their advanced age. I will also do the next tier of guys. I would love to hear what you guys think about this topic.

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Speaking for myself I am moving away from the term "elite." The reason is because what I heard from Dan Orlovsky.

He believes that quarterbacks should be categorized as follows:

1) Quarterbacks you win because of.

2) Quarterbacks you can win with

3) Quarterbacks you can with in spite of

4) Quarterbacks you can not win with

That way of looking quarterbacks makes sense to me.

Forgeting age and future. Starting a game played today. Aaron Rodgers IMO stands alone. He is the best. The rest can be stacked in some order that could be argued.

Category One: Rodgers, Brady, Mahomes, Watson, Allen, Wilson, Burrow, Lamar, Herbert

Category Two: Carr, Ryan, Tannehill, Dak, Cousins, Stafford(almost category One), Murray, Baker, Jimmy G, Matt Jones

Category Three: Jameis, Mariota, Goff, Hurts, Tua, Trubisky

Category Four: Darnold, Jones, Wentz, Lock

Incomplete grades for: Lawrence, Fields, Trey Lance, Zach Wilson

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I agree with your list except for these two -

Burrow - he is the most overrated player I can remember in the last thirty years, maybe longer.

Watson - I want to see more before he gets put into the elite category. Looking forward to close games to see if he can put the team on his shoulders and deliver wins.

Rishuz #1939039 04/16/22 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Rishuz
I agree with your list except for these two -

Burrow - he is the most overrated player I can remember in the last thirty years, maybe longer.

Watson - I want to see more before he gets put into the elite category. Looking forward to close games to see if he can put the team on his shoulders and deliver wins.

I never understood the disdain for Burrow, but that's okay. I do get what you are saying about Watson. I debated on whether or not to put him in the "elite" category. He's harder to evaluate due to just how crappy the situation was w/the Texans' organization. Not sure if you read that article about him that I posted in bonefish's thread about Watson on the field, but he might have had the greatest year of any qb ever and he did it on one of the worst teams ever assembled. I would agree w/you that he needs to prove it on the field this year.

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I think I'm the only one with a less than positive outlook on Burrow. I certainly feel on an island on that one. I keep watching him and waiting to be impressed. And I'm just not there yet. I think so many things went right for the Bengals last year...health, breaks, draft picks performing, etc. I don't see that continuing. If he plays well next year and leads the Bengals back to the playoffs, I'll reassess. Right now, they are my favorite playoff team to not make it back to the playoffs next year.

I mean do this ... watch Allen's and Herbert's best games. Then watch Burrow's best game. Different stratospheres to me. Two teams win because of their QB. One team wins with their QB. And I was a late adopter to Herbert. Thought he stunk in college and had some rookie magic similar to Baker. After last season and that game against the Raiders, I can no longer deny how good he is. He has no weaknesses.

Rishuz #1939045 04/16/22 11:43 AM
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Physically speaking, I agree w/your takes. But, there is more to the game than that. Look at Brady. I'd also say you need to consider what Burrow does in the big moments. Guy made a ton of clutch plays. Another thing to contemplate is how different the Bengals were when Burrow wasn't playing. My biggest concern w/Burrow is that he is going to be injured again. He gets sacked a lot and he goes down awkwardly. I always worry about his knees when he falls. I do agree w/you that the Bengals could very well miss the playoffs this upcoming year. Baltimore won't have so many injuries and we've upgraded at qb.

Rishuz #1939047 04/16/22 11:45 AM
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Btw---------good conversation. Ranking QBs is tough and can be very subjective. It's going to get tougher as we move through the tiers.

Rishuz #1939056 04/16/22 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rishuz
I think I'm the only one with a less than positive outlook on Burrow. I certainly feel on an island on that one. I keep watching him and waiting to be impressed. And I'm just not there yet. I think so many things went right for the Bengals last year...health, breaks, draft picks performing, etc. I don't see that continuing. If he plays well next year and leads the Bengals back to the playoffs, I'll reassess. Right now, they are my favorite playoff team to not make it back to the playoffs next year.

I mean do this ... watch Allen's and Herbert's best games. Then watch Burrow's best game. Different stratospheres to me. Two teams win because of their QB. One team wins with their QB. And I was a late adopter to Herbert. Thought he stunk in college and had some rookie magic similar to Baker. After last season and that game against the Raiders, I can no longer deny how good he is. He has no weaknesses.

You are not alone in your opinion of Burrow. I've been bagging on his arm "strength" since his draft. Soooooo...overrated.

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I'm holding out on my opinion of Burrow. Sometimes NFL defenses figure out how to minimize what a QB's skill set is and sometimes they don't. If they don't Burrow will be a great QB. But for me the jury is still out.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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I retired from QB rankings.

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My second tier of QBs are guys that are really good and lift up their teammates. They can lead teams to wins and elevate those around them. They might have a hole or two in their repertoires that drop them just below elite.

Tier Two: Guys who elevate their teams:

R. Wilson [PFF rank #18]; M. Stafford [#7]; D. Prescott [#10]; Lamar [#23]; D. Carr [#13].

A few words about each.

Wilson: This guy makes a ton of plays from nothing. He can be very good in the clutch and deliver miracle plays when things are looking dire. However, he is not very good in the pocket. He's very short and struggles from the pocket. He often gets too deep in the pocket and that leads to sacks that are not really on the OL. I am not saying his OL was good, but he does drift out of the pocket. Teams game plan to keep him in the pocket, but he is tough to contain. One thing I really like is how he keeps his eyes downfield when scrambling.

Prescott: Very solid guy who has a nice combination of arm talent, size, and athleticism. Very sound guy in the locker room. I think he comes up short in crunch time. Folks can blame coaching all they want, but Dak didn't uplift the team in the big moments.

Stafford: I considered putting him in the elite level. I think he is a guy who represents what can happen to a team when they elevate the QB position. The Rams always were good, but Goff is not an elevator. They gave up a ton for Stafford and he got them over the hump. I don't like how many dumb throws and decisions he makes, though. That kept him out of the elite category.

Lamar: He is such an outlier. I can honestly say that no single player means more to his team than Lamar. He carries that team. And he does it differently than all the other top qbs. I kept him out of the elite tier because while he is great, he is still not an accomplished passer of the football. I can see why others would consider him elite, though.

Carr: I struggled on whether to put him in this second tier or the third tier. I give him props for performing well at the end of games. I give mad props for being a great leader during the Gruden debacle and the Ruggs tragedy. That means a lot. However, I think he holds the ball way too long and that kills the OL. He also makes some really terrible decisions at times.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Speaking for myself I am moving away from the term "elite." The reason is because what I heard from Dan Orlovsky.

He believes that quarterbacks should be categorized as follows:

1) Quarterbacks you win because of.

2) Quarterbacks you can win with

3) Quarterbacks you can with in spite of

4) Quarterbacks you can not win with

That way of looking quarterbacks makes sense to me.

Forgetting age and future. Starting a game played today. Aaron Rodgers IMO stands alone. He is the best. The rest can be stacked in some order that could be argued.

Category One: Rodgers, Brady, Mahomes, Watson, Allen, Wilson, Burrow, Lamar, Herbert

Category Two: Carr, Ryan, Tannehill, Dak, Cousins, Stafford(almost category One), Murray, Baker, Jimmy G, Matt Jones

Category Three: Jameis, Mariota, Goff, Hurts, Tua, Trubisky

Category Four: Darnold, Jones, Wentz, Lock

Incomplete grades for: Lawrence, Fields, Trey Lance, Zach Wilson

I like the concept and the rankings. Watson, as others have said, I want to see play before putting him the same company as Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers etc. . . . Some QB's you almost want a half way category like Stafford - Dak is another who can win you games but maybe not consistently. Matt Jones is one that might need to be looked at in the opposite direction - I think he is a little over rated in that group, I am not sold on him at all. And another that probably has a ? at the moment is Russel Wilson. 3 years ago I would have said top 3 QB in the NFL, injury and some struggles and I need to see him play a bit for the Colts before putting him back up in that top bracket.


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mgh888 #1939081 04/16/22 02:36 PM
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I know you mean Wilson with Denver not the Colts.

IMO Wilson is a HOF'er. He was on a bad team last year and played hurt.

He will go back to being Russell Wilson. I don't know the Denver team really well. Hackett the head coach I don't a thing about.

So hard to say for me how the Broncos will do.

Matt Jones I probably should put into incomplete. However, I thought he played well as a rookie.

Some guys may play their way up or down. Who knows. Carr has a bunch of talent around him this year. They could be a really good team. The offense has some good players. Josh Daniels is probably ready for this second chance.

I know most write Trubisky off. My thoughts on him are. He was over drafted. Thrown into a starters role before ready. And while a starter not supported or well coached.

The question is he better than Ben was last year? My guess is - yes. The Steelers won 9 games with Ben as a diminished player. If the Steelers place third in 2022. Somebody from the other teams are in big trouble.


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Originally Posted by cfrs15
I retired from Qb rankings.

Not Surprising, one cannot easily find a majority opinion crowd to stand with and use as a shield in arguments to avoid having to stand alone on ones' own arguments. ( because there's no consensous.)

Vers: We can rank NFL quarterbacks, ( I made a post listing a bunch in order in early 2021, in a thread noone else seemed to want to. ) But Maybe it's about ranking the NFL teams, because, well you know.

... ... ... got pulled away from the reply. ...

We can choose who we believe is the better Qb by simply watching them play, and stick to our beliefs, until over time evidence may force us to admit the truth is different,
I think it was easy to see Herbert was better than Burrow, because, just watch em, but .. well, See! there's a thing,
a thing in football where, you have to have an eye, we can develop an eye,
( and I'm sure mathmaticians' blah blah, and ... blah blah have tried to use things to put numbers to it, or other measurings, but there is trusting your eye, because you see, There is, maybe a whole football game that gets played, maybe 5 games, and, in those 5 games,
there could be as few as 3 or 4 plays,
or 3 or 4 (bits of a play) where it really comes down to seeing the player(s) make(ing) a() decision(s)
AGAINST the ultimate level of competition For a split second,
like a fight for a rebound or a last second shot in the NBA, (NO! Rather, moreso, beating really good defense 1 on 1 in ball handling)
or
how a title boxing fight can come down to 3 or 4 flurries of combinations to where it's best vs. best where you really see the best players abilities show up for an instant,

and then, a whole group of the rest of the 5 games of football can be mainly irrelevant where the lesser talented players can look as good or better than the ones whom your eye can tell you, (that guy!) he is the better one.

( A lot like when people would put down yards gotten in garbage time. ) But not exactly, just "like" that.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Before I give my opinion on the next tier of QBs, I am going to rank the QBs I would want to start a franchise with. Some of the criteria I will be using are things like potential, past accomplishments, physical attributes, skill set, leadership, the ability to elevate others, etc.

Ranking QBs who I would want to start a franchise with.

In order:

1. Josh Allen. He has every physical attribute that talent evaluators drool over. He has worked hard to improve his game. He is clutch in big moments. His teammates love him. He is able to escape the pass rush and/or stand in there and deliver strikes when he knows he's going to get jacked up. My concern is that he does put his body at risk a lot. I know he is big and strong, but those hits have to take a toll on one's body. If I were coaching him, I would encourage him to back off on playing each play like it's your last. It's an admirable trait, but he is needed long-term.

2. Justin Herbert: Has similar physical gifts to Allen. Can deliver in crunch time. He sometimes is adversely affected when teams get a good pass rush going. However, he has this ability to keep slinging it and his ability to be such a good passer of the football in terms of arm strength, accuracy, anticipation, finding the right receiver to throw to, etc is exceptional. My biggest worry for him is that his HC is a dolt and is making things more about himself than his team.

3. Patrick Mahomes: This was a tough one. He is the most accomplished of all the guys I am putting on my list. His arm talent is second to none in regards to all the throwing platforms, creativity, and hitting guys in stride. I think he is confident but humble in that he believes in himself but always talks about the areas he needs to improve upon. He takes responsibility. Fans and media members identify w/him and he will sell tickets. My concern w/him is that I am old school in that I like QBs w/sound mechanics. Mahomes lower body mechanics are really bad. He often gets away w/it, but it is a concern.

4. Joe Burrow. I almost put him 3rd. I think his leadership abilities are only second to Brady's. I love how he comes through in clutch moments. It's been documented on how he improved his arm strength during the off-season between years one and two. It showed. He throws a nice deep ball and often fired shots into tight windows. I think he is a very tough guy and shines in the clutch and on the biggest stage. I know his teammates believe in him. My biggest concern is that his physical traits are not like Allen's or Herberts and that his toughness might lead to more injuries. He has taken too many shots. I do think he falls in awkward positions and I always worry about future injuries w/him.

5. Deshawn Watson. He is a great leader. He thrives in big moments. His college coach compared him to Michael Jordan. He can beat you w/his arm, legs, and brain. He is much stronger than what his frame suggests. He runs through guys at times. I think he has done more w/less than almost anyone. His character was impeccable until recently. Everone talked about him like he was such a great guy and how he had great integrity. That leads me to my next point. My concern is two-fold in that I don't know if the claims against him are true or not. But, if they are true........I yi yi yi. Also, I think a significant percentage of the local fans and media are going to be incredibly hard on him. That's a lot to carry around even if you are innocent. I almost left him off the list, but 8 teams were willing to give up a ton for him and pay him huge money. Four teams agreed to Houston's trade demands, which were a lot. Thus, I deduced that they know more about just what his value is.

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Before we give excuses for the crappy Houston situation, let's not ignore the fact that in 2015 and 2016 the Texans were AFC South Champs both years. Watson didn't come to a crappy team - he was drafted by a 2-time division winner.

Watson's first year with Houston they went from 2-time Division Champs to a 4-12 last place finish. In 2018, the Texans rebounded to again hold the top spot as Division winners. In 2019, they again won the division with Watson at the helm. In 2020, the Texans reverted back to a 4-12 record and a 3rd place finish. The Texans had stability at the Head Coach position because the Texans had the same head coach from 2014 until part of the way through 2020. During that time, their coach had 4 AFC South Championships and 6 playoff games. To say that Watson was exposed to a crappy organization or in horrific conditions is hogwash - Mayfield would have been so lucky to have played for a single head coach who led his organization to 4 playoff appearances in 6 years. Wow, that was so horrific for Watson. Mayfield didn't have an once of that stability or the players and weapons that Watson walked into the NFL to support him.

Watson appears to be an upgrade and I don't have an issue with the upgrade but do with the baggage he's bringing and how it was handled. However, trying to paint Watson as some type of martyr because he played with Houston is just plain not the truth.

I'm not so hopped up to rate all the QB's because things happen to make those rankings dependent on other factors. In most cases, injuries - player performance - coaching - and scheduling have bearings on whether a QB falls within one category or another. Ranking a player as elite after 1-2 years of performance is questionable at best. I would also think that a QB drafted by a crappy team and goes 30-30 in his first 4-years (1 playing injured) would receive higher consideration than a player drafted by a 2-time Division winner and playoff team that goes 28-25 in 4-years. Like I said, not all QB's are dealing with the same variables. It's definitely harder to get 12 wins when you're starting with a base of 1-31 than it is to get to 12 wins when your already at a 9-win base.


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All are fine young quarterbacks capable of leading a franchise.

Like any quarterback they also will be dependent upon the team around them for success. All of them have the tools to be successful.

They are a little different to a degree. That is expected.

Allen is built to play. I loved him when he was coming into the league. But he was for sure a big hit or big miss guy. Physical stud. But he did plenty wrong and had to learn a lot. To his credit he did learn. His third year was a huge turn around. His game against the Chiefs in the playoffs was spellbinding.

Herbert and Burrow are classic pocket guys with enough leg. Both are excellent throwers. I have seen more of Burrow than Herbert. Herbert can flat spin it. He throws a great ball.

I love Burrow. I like him as a leader. The first time I heard him talk. I liked him. He plays to win. He is fearless. When a big play is needed. He makes the play. He may not be as physically gifted as the others. It does not matter. He has it between the ears and he is accurate.

Mahomes is a different cat. I saw that when he was coming into the draft and I turned on his college tape. You can't watch him and judge him like others. He does lots of things wrong. But you look up and damn it worked. No, no, no, no don't do that - damn. You don't coach young quarterbacks to play like Mahomes. Only Mahomes can do what he does and get away with it. "When it is grim be the Grim Reaper." You are not suppose to throw across your body. You don't throw across the field going the other way.

Deshaun Watson. I refuse to get into "off the field." People can view that as they see fit. On the field he is an excellent player. In his career at college and in the NFL he can take over a game. He has done that often. He will do whatever it takes to win. He will sacrifice his body to make a winning play.
He plays a complete game. He can play from the pocket on platform and deliver. He can move and throw. He makes good decisions. He is accurate.
The one true ability he has that stands out is his will to win. He plays his best when it counts the most.

*It remains to be seen how he handles what now surrounds him. There is no way to determine if it will affect his play on the field.

For myself I can separate how feel about an athlete personally and how I view their performance on a field of play. I love boxing. Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist and probably a rotten human being. I still liked watching him fight.

I love jazz music. Miles Davis is one of my all time favorite musicians. He was a notorious woman beater. A truly mean rotten person.
But when I turn on "Kind of Blue." I hear only music that takes me to another world.

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I am a Burrows fan - I was when he came out and he's not done anything to make me a non-believer. I rate his accuracy and processing speed very highly.

Herbert is more in flux and I have yet to see enough of him to be sure how and where he fits.... I've seen him play lights out - and I have seen him make plays that leave you scratching your head. Sometimes in the same game. I am 100% not ready to anoint him yet. You only have to look at Wentz's fall from grace to realize that 2 seasons is way too soon to determine the career path of a QB.


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j/c

Burrow's most clutch play is to either throw it 2 yards behind the LOS and let his stud play-makers make a play...OR...chuck it up ala Kyler Murray and let one of his stud play-makers run under the punt throw.

When he throws outside the hashmarks, he's a pick waiting to happen. His (3) WRs were all better than any one guy we threw out there last year...yet we still beat him. That "awful" OLine he played behind sported the league's 3rd best rusher.

Sooooooo...overrated.

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Yep... A Baker led Browns team never lost to him. He benefitted from his catching playmakers like Baker never did. You never even mentioned the TE position where Uzomah or whatever his name is was streets ahead of any Browns TE.

I still like Burrows and think he's very good.


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This is not a Baker Mayfield thread. I mean, you can rank him as an elite qb if you like and I won't say a word. But please, this is intended to be a fun thread where we talk football w/out all the other BS. You can talk about poor Baker on the Baker thread. Hell, in that thread and the Super Bowl contenders thread, you talked about Watson.

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Before we give excuses for the crappy Houston situation, let's not ignore the fact that in 2015 and 2016 the Texans were AFC South Champs both years. Watson didn't come to a crappy team - he was drafted by a 2-time division winner.

Watson's first year with Houston they went from 2-time Division Champs to a 4-12 last place finish.

This is wildly deceiving. I noticed you doing that when I wasn't posting on the board when you continually used partial facts and did not tell the entire story when you were bashing Stefanski. I am not sure if it is accidental, but in regards to trying to be accurate, I'm going to post an excerpt that sheds some light on your claim about Watson's rookie year and how they went 4 and 12.

Quote
Deshaun Watson done for season after suffering torn ACL in Texans practice
The Rookie of the Year favorite suffered an ACL tear at practice on Thursday, Jason La Canfora confirms

John Breech

By John Breech
Nov 2, 2017 at 5:03 pm ET

3 min read
After getting off to one of the most impressive starts for any rookie quarterback in NFL history, Deshaun Watson's season is now over.

CBS Sports NFL Insider Jason La Canfora has confirmed that the Texans' rookie quarterback suffered a torn ACL during practice on Thursday. According to ESPN.com, Watson was injured while running a read-option play on a grass practice field. NFL.com first reported the Texans feared the injury was a torn ACL.

The injury to Watson's right ACL comes almost exactly three years after he tore his left ACL during his freshman year at Clemson.

With Watson now out for the year, it means that the Texans will have to turn back to Tom Savage, who will now have to try and save Houston's season. At 3-4, the Texans are currently one game behind both the Titans and the Jaguars in the AFC South.
.
Here is the link for that article: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...r-suffering-torn-acl-in-texans-practice/


Thus, the Texans were 3 and 4 w/Watson and he was the favorite for ROY. The team went 1 and 8 after he was out of the lineup and you are blaming Watson for that?


However, trying to paint Watson as some type of martyr because he played with Houston is just plain not the truth./quote]

I never tried to paint Watson as a martyr and I sure as hell didn't lie. Almost everyone who follows football knows how BOB destroyed that team w/his insane ego and absurd trades. It was a running joke in many circles--including this board--at just how bad of a job he did in that regard.

Quote
I'm not so hopped up to rate all the QB's because things happen to make those rankings dependent on other factors.

No one is forcing you to do so. But, is it okay if others want to discuss the topic?

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Originally Posted by bonefish
All are fine young quarterbacks capable of leading a franchise.

Like any quarterback they also will be dependent upon the team around them for success. All of them have the tools to be successful.

They are a little different to a degree. That is expected.

Allen is built to play. I loved him when he was coming into the league. But he was for sure a big hit or big miss guy. Physical stud. But he did plenty wrong and had to learn a lot. To his credit he did learn. His third year was a huge turn around. His game against the Chiefs in the playoffs was spellbinding.

Herbert and Burrow are classic pocket guys with enough leg. Both are excellent throwers. I have seen more of Burrow than Herbert. Herbert can flat spin it. He throws a great ball.

I love Burrow. I like him as a leader. The first time I heard him talk. I liked him. He plays to win. He is fearless. When a big play is needed. He makes the play. He may not be as physically gifted as the others. It does not matter. He has it between the ears and he is accurate.

Mahomes is a different cat. I saw that when he was coming into the draft and I turned on his college tape. You can't watch him and judge him like others. He does lots of things wrong. But you look up and damn it worked. No, no, no, no don't do that - damn. You don't coach young quarterbacks to play like Mahomes. Only Mahomes can do what he does and get away with it. "When it is grim be the Grim Reaper." You are not suppose to throw across your body. You don't throw across the field going the other way.

Deshaun Watson. I refuse to get into "off the field." People can view that as they see fit. On the field he is an excellent player. In his career at college and in the NFL he can take over a game. He has done that often. He will do whatever it takes to win. He will sacrifice his body to make a winning play.
He plays a complete game. He can play from the pocket on platform and deliver. He can move and throw. He makes good decisions. He is accurate.
The one true ability he has that stands out is his will to win. He plays his best when it counts the most.

*It remains to be seen how he handles what now surrounds him. There is no way to determine if it will affect his play on the field.

For myself I can separate how feel about an athlete personally and how I view their performance on a field of play. I love boxing. Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist and probably a rotten human being. I still liked watching him fight.

I love jazz music. Miles Davis is one of my all time favorite musicians. He was a notorious woman beater. A truly mean rotten person.
But when I turn on "Kind of Blue." I hear only music that takes me to another world.

I think this is a very good take. We disagree on some things, but it's a sound football discussion. I totally agree w/you about separating the off the field and on the field stuff. I don't watch sports to learn about morals. I view it as entertainment. When I played and coached, I was all in. However, as a spectator, I just enjoy watching the games. I like your Tyson and Davis analogies. I only mentioned the Watson off the field thing to point out that while you and I may not lose interest in the team, there will be others who make a big deal of it and that is their right. It could be a huge distraction and it is something to consider when building a team.

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Originally Posted by WSU Willie
j/c

Burrow's most clutch play is to either throw it 2 yards behind the LOS and let his stud play-makers make a play...OR...chuck it up ala Kyler Murray and let one of his stud play-makers run under the punt throw.

8 yd lollipop, 8 yd lollipop, 8 yd lollipop, jump ball. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I agree with Vers that the physical is not the most important or the end all be all and Burrow seems like a really smart QB who knows where to go with the ball. I may be wrong on this long term, but I just don't see anything special when I watch him.

And I know he's being lauded for his leadership, but he looked like he has some Baker Mayfield in him that would turn people off. The way he was acting in the locker room, his somewhat indignant press conferences about how the Bengals expected to be there (reminded me of Baker early on), and his clothing choices brought a lot of attention on himself. It was overlooked because they were winning. If Baker had done those things he would have been lambasted (maybe because it wasn't being accompanied by winning). But I saw a guy in Burrow who's head was getting too big to fit through the door.

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For the first time since I considered making this thread, I googled NFL Top QBs. I previously only used my own evaluations and PFF rankings. Here is the first link I looked at in case anyone is interested.


https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-end-of-2021-nfl-season-rankings

They have Brady at 1, Rodgers at 2, Herbert at 3, Burrow at 4, Mahomes 5th, Josh Allen is 6th, Murray at 7, Stafford at 8, Prescott is 9th, and Carr rounds out their top 10.

Not sure if this was written before the playoffs began or not? The published date is Jan. 12th, but it was probably written earlier. Not sure of when the playoffs started. I get a feeling this was written pre-playoffs because of there being no mention of Allen's greatness against KC, Murray's debacle, and Stafford's Super Bowl.

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"Texans defensive lineman J.J. Watt knows that a team shouldn’t finish 4-12 when its quarterback has a great year like the one Deshaun Watson had.

After the Texans lost the season finale, NFL Films caught Watt and Watson walking off the field together, and Watt reflecting on what a disappointing season it’s been.


“Good job, brother. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. We wasted one of your years. I’m sorry. We should have 11 wins,” Watt told Watson.

Watson led the NFL with 4,823 passing yards and 8.9 yards per attempt. He had career-highs in completion percentage, touchdowns and first downs while throwing a career-low interception total. He was outstanding this season. It’s a shame that the Texans put such a bad team around him."


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Originally Posted by bonefish
"Texans defensive lineman J.J. Watt knows that a team shouldn’t finish 4-12 when its quarterback has a great year like the one Deshaun Watson had.

After the Texans lost the season finale, NFL Films caught Watt and Watson walking off the field together, and Watt reflecting on what a disappointing season it’s been.


“Good job, brother. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. We wasted one of your years. I’m sorry. We should have 11 wins,” Watt told Watson.

Watson led the NFL with 4,823 passing yards and 8.9 yards per attempt. He had career-highs in completion percentage, touchdowns and first downs while throwing a career-low interception total. He was outstanding this season. It’s a shame that the Texans put such a bad team around him."


Everyone is entitled to their opinion w/out facing ridicule, but I think it's pretty hard for people not to include Watson in the discussion as a top qb. That probably won't go over well, but allow me to clarify. Despite not playing last year and despite having all these legal issues hanging over his head, there were 8 teams that wanted him as their QB. Four of those teams had the ability and the desire to succumb to Houston's outrageous demands in terms of what they were willing to trade for him. Hell, they were all good w/overlooking the public outrage that would inevitably come w/signing Watson. Damn......that can't be ignored in the honest evaluation of how professional talent evaluators view Watson. The dude can ball.

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Rishuz #1939108 04/16/22 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Rishuz
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
j/c

Burrow's most clutch play is to either throw it 2 yards behind the LOS and let his stud play-makers make a play...OR...chuck it up ala Kyler Murray and let one of his stud play-makers run under the punt throw.

8 yd lollipop, 8 yd lollipop, 8 yd lollipop, jump ball. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I agree with Vers that the physical is not the most important or the end all be all and Burrow seems like a really smart QB who knows where to go with the ball. I may be wrong on this long term, but I just don't see anything special when I watch him.

And I know he's being lauded for his leadership, but he looked like he has some Baker Mayfield in him that would turn people off. The way he was acting in the locker room, his somewhat indignant press conferences about how the Bengals expected to be there (reminded me of Baker early on), and his clothing choices brought a lot of attention on himself. It was overlooked because they were winning. If Baker had done those things he would have been lambasted (maybe because it wasn't being accompanied by winning). But I saw a guy in Burrow who's head was getting too big to fit through the door.
Burrow seems to be in that area between confident and arrogant. But show me a QB lacking in
Self confidence and I will show you Baker Mayfield, Josh Rosen, etc etc.
What Burrow did in 2021 was logic defying in someways
Everybody on.This board had them pegged for last place in the North. Called the Bengals
Stupid for passing on Sewell. If throwing 8 yds lolipops was all Burrow threw to Jamar Chase
Then how come defenses couldnt stop it then ? How come Baker couldnt just simply throw lollipops"
If its so easy? People forget Joe Burrow has less than 32 regular season starts. He led that team to a SB
With constant pressure on dropbacks . people constantly repeat Mayfield beat Burrow twice. Well Burrow beat Mahomes twice. Which is more impressive?
I suggest rewatching Burrows throws in 2021. He was throwing more than lollipops.
Him and Chase have a trust in each other like Manning/Harrison or Mahomes/Hill
And Tee Higgins is a number 1-on most teams

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Another link after the 2021-22 season that ranks the top 20 QBs.


https://sportsnaut.com/nfl-qb-rankings/

There seems to be a theme here that is vastly different than what some posters on dawgtalkers want us to believe.

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Okay, Tier 3. This is my list of guys that you can with but might never elevate you. I also consider them a bit below what you need to win it all. This is going to be really tough.

Tier Three: Guys you want to keep, but are dubious about.

Kyler Murray [PFF # 9]; Ryan Tannehill [#8]; Jimmy G [#22]; Kirk Cousins [#6]; Matt Ryan [#16]; Mac Jones [#11]

Murray is well thought of on the sites I visited. He is dynamic and a huge playmaker. I'm sorry, but I hate his attitude. He is such a pouter. I would not want him as my qb, but i understand why others think highly o him.

Tannehill: Totally gagged in the playoff game, but he has a way of getting the job done during the regular season. I don't think he is good enough to win a title, but you can win w/him.

Jimmy G: It's hard to argue against his record. With him starting the 49ers are really good. When he is injured, they suck. His teammates adore the guy, which is kinda weird considering how good looking he is. It seems like he would be arrogant, but he has proven to be a great leader. On the other hand, the guy makes some of the worst decisions I have ever seen. He can be cruising along making one tough throw after another and then make the dumbest throw one can imagine.

Cousins: Dude is always ranked high in QBR and PFF rankings. I think he gets a bad rap sometimes, but on the other hand, he is way too streaky. He can be God-like for stretches and absolutely wretched in other stretches.

Ryan: Consummate professional who is a good passer. Solid character. I just never liked him in the clutch, but he will be a true adult in Indy's locker room after they endured Wentz last year.

Jones: I almost didn't put him on here because it's not quite right to evaluate rookie qbs, especially when elevating them. However, he is very mature and I was absolutely amazed at how much more composed he was than Baker was when we played them last year. Mature beyond his years. I don't think he has the physical attributes to be great, but he should be at least serviceable.

I understand this could be a confrontational list, but it's just my opinion and it was hard to narrow down this tier. I considered adding guys like Teddy Bridgewater, Jalen Hurts, Tua, and omitting Tannehill......but, that's it for now. I reserve the right to change my mind.

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I think you have Matt Ryan a little low on the tiers.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RyanMa00.htm

13 years, where did it go. Look at that career arc, He never would have lasted 5 years in Cleveland. frown
I pretty much like Matt Ryans' game at QB, but he is 36, whew,
222 games? Was 15 games the fewest he started in a year? That doesn't happen often.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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j/c

idk about all NFL QBs, but by the end of the next two years I bet Baker is a top 10 starter. Just saying, for all the haters.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 04/16/22 10:23 PM.

Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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With the way the league has tilted toward favoring the passing game
Its becomes that much harder to break the QBs down into tiers.
Look at Carson Wentz. He threw 27 TDs and 7 INTs in 2021.
In the 70s those numbers make him a 1st team All Pro.
In the 80s again a All Pro. Even in todays game, thats a darn good ratio.
Yet the Colts couldnt wait.to jettison him to the franchise that kills
QBs careers.
How do we fairly judge QBs when the rules have clearly benefitted
The QB? 4th quarter rating....playoff wins...passer rating vs top 10 defenses??
Their importance to the franchise??

Im going to.go with their importance to the franchise.
Tier 1. RODGERS
BRADY
BURROW
MAHOMES
ALLEN
HERBERT

TIER 2.
JACKSON
STAFFORD
PRESCOTT
CARR
WATSON
WILSON

TIER 3
COUSINS
MURRAY
HURTS
LAWRENCE
JONES

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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
j/c

idk about all NFL QBs, but by the end of the next two years I bet Baker is a top 10 starter. Just saying, for all the haters.

I'd argue there is a better chance he's out of the league due to his own self-destructive nature and is making money in college football broadcasting.

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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
j/c

idk about all NFL QBs, but by the end of the next two years I bet Baker is a top 10 starter. Just saying, for all the haters.
Baker still makes rookie mistakes. His ceiling has been reached.
File him under Heisman Winning QBs who failed at the next level

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Here is a Bracket, should you choose to accept it. Highly scientifically ranked, or made up on the spot.
Totally projected out to the 2022 season, any unclear starter defaults to the team qb situation. 1A equaling the number 1 overall seed, and number 8A equaling the worst, err 32nd ranked situation. But as rows 1-4 were picked, best to worst, ... and rows 8-5 were picked worst to not as bad, the a,b,c,and d work out. In the final 4, A would face D.. and B would face C, the AD winner would face the BC winner in the championship. So, - The C bracket first! bottom right
1C. Pat Mahommes
8C Geno Smith/Seattle QB situation
4C Ryan Tannehill Tenn.
5C, Mac Jones/ New England QB

2C, Joe Burrow Cincy
7C, Carson Wentz, Wash. FT.
3C, Kyler Murray, Ariz
6C, Steelers QB situation.

Then: The A bracket, Top Left.
1A Aaron Rogers, Green bay
8A Mac Wilson Ny jets
4A Matt Ryan Indianapolis
5A Bridgewater/Tua Dolphins Qb situation

2A Mathew Stafford LAR
7A Daniel Jones NYG
3A Derrick Carr LV
6A Justin Fields Chicago

Then the D---- bracket bottom left !
1D Josh Allen Bills
8D, Carolina QB situation (darnold)
4D Jimmy Garropollo SF
5D Kirk Cousins Minnesota

2D Justin Herbert LAC
7D Jared Goff Detroit Qb situation
3D THE CLEVELAND BROWNS QB
6D Trevor Lawrence Jags QB

Then your final B- bracket Top Right.
1B Tom Brady buccaneers
8B Texans Qb, (Davis Mills/other)
4B Russell Wilson Denver
5B Jameis Winston/ New Orleans Qb

2B Dak Prescott Dallas
7B Jalen Hurtz/ Eagles QB
3B Lamar Jackson Ravens
6B Marcus Mariotta / Falcons QB situation.

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Who is Mac Wilson Ny jets? It's Zach Wilson banghead


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Burrow seems to be in that area between confident and arrogant. But show me a QB lacking in
Self confidence and I will show you Baker Mayfield, Josh Rosen, etc etc.
What Burrow did in 2021 was logic defying in someways
Everybody on.This board had them pegged for last place in the North. Called the Bengals
Stupid for passing on Sewell. If throwing 8 yds lolipops was all Burrow threw to Jamar Chase
Then how come defenses couldnt stop it then ? How come Baker couldnt just simply throw lollipops"
If its so easy? People forget Joe Burrow has less than 32 regular season starts. He led that team to a SB
With constant pressure on dropbacks . people constantly repeat Mayfield beat Burrow twice. Well Burrow beat Mahomes twice. Which is more impressive?
I suggest rewatching Burrows throws in 2021. He was throwing more than lollipops.
Him and Chase have a trust in each other like Manning/Harrison or Mahomes/Hill
And Tee Higgins is a number 1-on most teams

You answered your own question.

It's easy to "throw with confidence" when you have (2) legit #1 WRs (from your post) who get AND catch the ball...when your 3rd WR would be no worse than a #2 WR on most good teams...not to mention a great TE and RBs who get significant YAC.

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On the thread "Watson Play Breakdown" I posted a film breakdown session with Kurt Warner, Baldy, and Watson.

Listening to Watson in that tape was interesting.

He is 26 years old. He came across as consumed with the process of playing quarterback. That is important. The reason is that mind set may serve him well this coming year. He is going to be under the microscope. Every comment he makes will be examined. He will have reporters sticking a mic in his face asking every question under the sun. I will not get into what may or may not have occured. I would like to think that as people go through life that they try to improve as people. Watson will be in Cleveland at least five years. We will get to see a lot of him over that time.

The locker room, the field, the meeting rooms will be a sanctuary for him to do nothing but play football. A comfort zone. My guess is he will consume himself with football. Untill the civil cases reach a conclusion and the NFL decides if to suspend him. Outside of the field will be no easy place.

What happens on the field will be about results. The better the results the easier the rest of his life will be.


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