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#1943516 05/06/22 09:59 AM
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I have too many memories of Browns teams flipping defensive schemes and/or drafting players who played a different position in college than they were asked to play for the Browns. I remember gaining the belief that 3-4 DEs/DTs were quite different from 4-3 DEs/DTs...to the point of not being interchangeable. That belief is being challenged and I seem to see and read that the chasm between Dlinemen skillset in the different "schemes" and where they line up has become more of a small crack than a chasm.

The best example I can give on this change is in the number of times (relatively recently) that we read about a guy (say a DE) who "can move inside on passing downs". I understand why it's done...no issue there. But I find it interesting that the various "lines" are becoming blurred regarding how/where they line up. We have a couple DEs on the roster today who are 250-260lb guys...almost more like 3-4 OLBs...we also have some tall, lean (looking) DEs in the 270+ range. We have several LBs who weigh less than our backup QB. It's a passing league...I get that...I just find it interesting that these players have now (suddenly?) become so "versatile".

My purpose for this post though is to look at the DTs we have on the roster or have recently picked/signed and to learn about what roles they play...especially given the above ^ two paragraphs:

Prior to the draft, our heaviest DT was Elliott at just over 300lbs. I recollect him as being more of a pass-rush-DT (I'll use the term 3T from here on out in this regard) who doesn't get much - if any - pressure. Day, Togiai, & Bryan (pre-draft guys) are similar in size. I'm pegging Day as more of a NT than a 3T, Bryan reads as a 3T and I have no idea on Togiai AND we continually read about DEs who can "slide inside on passing downs".

We go and draft Winfrey who reads like a 3T - who was asked to play too much NT last year. We pick a couple longer/leaner DEs and then (2) UDFAs who are both clearly NT types. Prior to the end of the draft, we could field a basketball team of DTs with nothing but non-NTs.

Are the (2) UDFAs really the only true NTs on the roster? What is/was Togiai? How does Elliott fit? Does anyone recollect seeing Bryan play - college or pro?

My apologies for taking so long to get to the true point here...it just seemed necessary to frame the DTs before getting to the point.

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We need more of what we called "Meet at the Quarterback." Even our vanilla choices should be more disruptive and aggressive IMO. Teams doing this just seem to be merchants of chaos and disruption. We are choosing some players and dispositions (read 'Winfrey') who embody this scheme. We have gotten the worst end of the stick with many matchups. What Clowney and MG gave .!us is exhibit A. I would like to see/know what Togiai has manage to do and gives us. Seems we can platoon a BUNCH of disruption in a number of ways. As far as 3-4 or 4-3, it will involve how you can disguise it. We seem to place a real premium on docking and fooling people (and failing). Simplify, simplify. And meet at the Qubee.

Go, Browns! Good thread, Willie


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I keep forgetting about Taven Bryant. He was a good player for the gators. I never figured him to be drafted in the 1st round like he was, but more of a top 3rd of the 2nd type player. He offers some stoutness. I don't know if he will demand double teams, which I really like at one of the DT spots. I think that helps your backers a lot in the run game.

Another that might show up is UDFA Glan logan. He has some beef. Maybe he can develop in to that run stuffing guy.

We have the slasher types and Winfrey should excel in that role.


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I see the DT room as having the potential to be completely overhauled from '21. Winfrey will make the team...I don't see how Elliott sticks...Bryan is the newly-signed guy who fits the FO profile...Day is the best returning DT we have...Togiai is a mystery as he appears to be neither stout NT nor 3T type...not yet anyway.

I can't imagine we keep more than (4) DTs of any type...Winfrey & Bryan are locks...only Day appears to be both types...that leaves one spot for a true NT who is not on the team right now other than for the (2) UDFAs...and football fans looooove them some UDFAs.

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That does bring up a point. What veterans are now at risk of being released due to the draft? That will be something to watch over the next several weeks.


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I think with the ability for Winfrey to play inside and outside on occasion, there could be a scenario where we have a 5th DT who can similarly play outside a bit like Winfrey. Just speculating because one of the positives on Winfrey was his ability to possibly play DE in some schemes.


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Judging by last year's starters, the draft and this year's likely starters, it would appear as though we will stick with the bigger DE's and guys on the edge who can play the run really well and use penetrating DT's on the inside.
A slight shift from the traditional norm, but considering the number of teams (including Cleveland) that rely on the inside/outside zone running scheme, having more mobile guys across the board does actually fit as a resolution/answer.
I'd feel alot better about the DT group if Malik McDowell hadn't lost it.
I assume Sheldon Day will likely stick again as the "beef", Taven Bryan and Winfrey are straight penetrators, Togiai will hopefully step up on year 2. Elliott may have a fight for a spot if they don't roll with 5 DT's (and considering the number of time we moved the bigger DE's inside on 3rd downs, it's quite likely we may just keep 4 DT's).
Hard to see moving on from a guy before year 3 though. Training camp should be interesting.
Maybe we roll with 5 LBers in this 2 LB defense to free up the 5th DT spot.

DE: Garrett, Wright*
DT: Bryan, Winfrey*
DT: Day, Togiai, Elliott
DE: Clowney, Winovich, Weaver
OLB: JOK, TakiTaki, Fields
ILB: Walker, Phillips

Something like that-ish. Assuming Isaiah Thomas goes to the practice squad.


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Hopefully a good DT will be released for whatever reason and we can pick him up. I say that every year about any position where we could use some help but it doesn't always come to fruition. DT is one area we could use a little more help

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Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Hopefully a good DT will be released for whatever reason and we can pick him up. I say that every year about any position where we could use some help but it doesn't always come to fruition. DT is one area we could use a little more help

Hicks is still out there as a FA...even if 32. It seems to me that we have a bunch of guys with the same/similar skill-sets...but only (2) NTs who are both recently-chosen UDFAs. Maybe they aren't too concerned about the true NT type - as Red Baron suggested above.

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Originally Posted by mgh888
I think with the ability for Winfrey to play inside and outside on occasion, there could be a scenario where we have a 5th DT who can similarly play outside a bit like Winfrey. Just speculating because one of the positives on Winfrey was his ability to possibly play DE in some schemes.

I hadn't thought of it that way as I've been hung up on the opposite...meaning DEs that can move inside. Elliott "looks" like a guy who could play the big DE...but I've not seen anything from him that even keeps him on the roster.

I'm not enough of an Xs & Os guy to ponder Woods' desired scheme and how he prefers the makeup of his DT room. But I can't remember - Woods or pre Woods - the last time we had a truly stout NT type.

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Willie you can get a guy that is 32. We're going to rotate them. Hicks would be a good pick-up IMO. I still wish we kept Sheldon Richardson.

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Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Willie you can get a guy that is 32. We're going to rotate them. Hicks would be a good pick-up IMO. I still wish we kept Sheldon Richardson.

Agreed...I'd be good with Hicks and one of the UDFAs if the FO/Woods sees the need. The Richardson thing is (still) just odd to me...but I think that ship has sailed.

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As long as the Browns have Sheldon Day, Malik Jackson, and Porter Gustin, the run defense is going to be serviceable.

(The Browns don't have any of them still?) Why can't they keep a team together.


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Originally Posted by RedBaron
DE: Garrett, Wright*
DT: Bryan, Winfrey*
DT: (Day), Togiai, Elliott
DE: (Clowney), Winovich, Weaver
OLB: JOK, TakiTaki, Fields
ILB: Walker, Phillips

Something like that-ish. Assuming Isaiah Thomas goes to the practice squad.
1. I thought I saw Sheldon Day was cut/waived/or a free agent. (The Browns should have kept him.)
2. I think it was Taven Bryan and Chase Winovich that I looked up and ... sadly ... realized they are averaging less than one tackle per game, and the other one almost less than one tackle every Two games.
That is similar to Nothing.


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Just my random thoughts...

Winfrey is not nearly as effective at the 1-tech as he is as a penetrating 3-tech. Multiple draft analysts made this observation pre-draft.
The team needs a true 2-gap run defending DT. Glenn Logan has some ability to play this style of DL. The other guy from Illinois supposedly is a more effective pass rusher from the nose. We might need both of them.

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Originally Posted by RedBaron
Judging by last year's starters, the draft and this year's likely starters, it would appear as though we will stick with the bigger DE's and guys on the edge who can play the run really well and use penetrating DT's on the inside.
A slight shift from the traditional norm, but considering the number of teams (including Cleveland) that rely on the inside/outside zone running scheme, having more mobile guys across the board does actually fit as a resolution/answer.
I'd feel alot better about the DT group if Malik McDowell hadn't lost it.
I assume Sheldon Day will likely stick again as the "beef", Taven Bryan and Winfrey are straight penetrators, Togiai will hopefully step up on year 2. Elliott may have a fight for a spot if they don't roll with 5 DT's (and considering the number of time we moved the bigger DE's inside on 3rd downs, it's quite likely we may just keep 4 DT's).
Hard to see moving on from a guy before year 3 though. Training camp should be interesting.
Maybe we roll with 5 LBers in this 2 LB defense to free up the 5th DT spot.

DE: Garrett, Wright*
DT: Bryan, Winfrey*
DT: Day, Togiai, Elliott
DE: Clowney, Winovich, Weaver
OLB: JOK, TakiTaki, Fields
ILB: Walker, Phillips

Something like that-ish. Assuming Isaiah Thomas goes to the practice squad.

I am hoping that Glan Logan can kick Elliott or Togiai to the curb. Of those two, we have seen Elliott and he is pretty weak. Of the two, I would give Togiai another year to see if he can be any better, if not, kick him to the curb next year.

I am old school and feel at least one of your DT's needs to be a guy who can eat two blockers in the run game.


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For me, it is a glaring hole in our D-line not to have at least 1 guy who is a decent 2-gapping run defender. I have been singing some version of
this song for several years. McDowell (for the moment in time when he was stable) showed how the defense stiffened with an effective NT.

As far as who should be a candidate for release and who should not... I have more confidence in Day than either Elliot or Togiai. I also remember at this time last year some on the board were rather dismissive about Day. I do agree Elliot has had enough time to emerge. If he doesn't show something in camp or pre-season I wouldn't be surprised if he's released.

Per RedBaron's front-seven I would project Isaiah Thomas over Weaver.

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I always give the nod to guys in the league over draftees before pre-season.

The best case scenario would be Winfrey beating out Bryan (who is more like DT #4 for a lot of teams).
And yes, Weaver's half a dozen snaps in his first year back after injury doesn't bode well for him winning the DE #5 spot.

OTA depth charts smile

It was mostly an exercise for me to visualize a 5 LBer room in case we went 10 deep on the d-line since Elliott was 3rd highest in DT snaps in year 2 and I still don't see us letting him go before we get to see if he can make the year 3 jump.

I would have loved this draft class if we had taken Travis Jones 1st, but...meh...we don't like beef it seems.


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I saw a replay of a few snaps of the Final game of last year, iirc, the steelers and Browns, and, all I noticed was Jordan Elliott getting pushed back 4 yards from the snap.
If your interior DL is getting pushed backwards 4 yards at the snap, and then just vanishing into the chest of the Off. Blocker the previous snap, that is painful to watch if you are a fan of the team on defense.

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What about Suh? I think Tampa is going to move on.


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Not sure how much he would cost, but if we stick w/the one-year rental approach to DT, Suh makes sense. He would give us that big-body, nasty, run-stuffing interior lineman that we really need.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Not sure how much he would cost, but if we stick w/the one-year rental approach to DT, Suh makes sense. He would give us that big-body, nasty, run-stuffing interior lineman that we really need.

I agree. I didn't mention that I wouldn't be all that excited about a contract over a year. Maybe 2 if we had a workable out.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by RedBaron
Judging by last year's starters, the draft and this year's likely starters, it would appear as though we will stick with the bigger DE's and guys on the edge who can play the run really well and use penetrating DT's on the inside.
A slight shift from the traditional norm, but considering the number of teams (including Cleveland) that rely on the inside/outside zone running scheme, having more mobile guys across the board does actually fit as a resolution/answer.
I'd feel alot better about the DT group if Malik McDowell hadn't lost it.
I assume Sheldon Day will likely stick again as the "beef", Taven Bryan and Winfrey are straight penetrators, Togiai will hopefully step up on year 2. Elliott may have a fight for a spot if they don't roll with 5 DT's (and considering the number of time we moved the bigger DE's inside on 3rd downs, it's quite likely we may just keep 4 DT's).
Hard to see moving on from a guy before year 3 though. Training camp should be interesting.
Maybe we roll with 5 LBers in this 2 LB defense to free up the 5th DT spot.

DE: Garrett, Wright*
DT: Bryan, Winfrey*
DT: Day, Togiai, Elliott
DE: Clowney, Winovich, Weaver
OLB: JOK, TakiTaki, Fields
ILB: Walker, Phillips

Something like that-ish. Assuming Isaiah Thomas goes to the practice squad.

I am hoping that Glan Logan can kick Elliott or Togiai to the curb. Of those two, we have seen Elliott and he is pretty weak. Of the two, I would give Togiai another year to see if he can be any better, if not, kick him to the curb next year.

I am old school and feel at least one of your DT's needs to be a guy who can eat two blockers in the run game.

Problem is we don't have those big run stuffers on the roster. As far as NTs go only Elliot is significantly over 300. I have read he is 315. I like you hope that either Logan or Perry can eat blockers. Logan has the better frame to add weight of those two.

From the best info I can find our mini camp DTs were Elliot and Bryan. Elliot had a PFF overall grade of 41.6. Bryan was 56.4.


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I agree and know we don't have that big guy on the roster. That comment was more in the "wishing we had' category.

This is Elliotts 3rd year. As a former 3rd rounder , that is high enough in the draft you would expect to see some results that make you think he is a pretty good player.

I am not one who really expects DTs to make a ton of tackles or sack the QB a whole lot. I understand they play a dirty position that just doesn't allow for much in that regard unless you are the superstar type player. On run plays I do expect them to be able to hold the point of attack and on passing plays push the pocket 3-4-5 feet to take away some space from the qb's ability to step up from the edge guys.

Maybe this will be Elliotts year. He either needs to show what he did at Missouri and be able to slash past the guard to be disruptive in the backfield, or hold the LOS. When he was drafted I was hoping to see a MD Perry type DT who could get in the backfield and screw up plays before they could really start.

We'll see.


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DE), 4-5*
--90 DE Jadeveon Clowney South Carolina
--95 DE Myles Garrett Texas A&M
--69 DE Chase Winovich Michigan
--94 DE Alex Wright UAB
--58 DE Isaiah Thomas Oklahoma

DT), 4*-5
--96 DT Jordan Elliott  Missouri
--99 DT Taven Bryan Florida
--97 DT Perrion Winfrey Oklahoma
--93 DT Tommy Togiai Ohio State?
--92 DT Sheldon Day Notre Dame PS?


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I think, from the original post. a couple of points.
When you talk about DE's getting moved inside it seems you are talking about Clowney and Myles Garrett, and they may have to necessitate moving inside because their is almost nothing playable that lines up on the inside. (Last year the Browns had Malik Jackson who did not return, the previous year 2020, the Browns had Sheldon Day and Larry Ogunjobi, all of which could at least hold up for a few downs or a couple of series, and Jackson was a solid pro starter from the Eagles, and NONE of them are returning.)
It could be, it seems a philosophy that the Browns being so focused on passing downs, don't even want to bother with a roster spot to keep a true nose tackle.
But, even if you don't want to bother, the fact is, there are times, rare as they may be in a game when in a 4th and one, or a goal line stand where you have to have SOMEBODY who can play nosetackle. So the Browns have the udfas' like Glen Logan who fit that description but, Logan had a foot injury, and played at an over 330+ at one time if I read right, and being a udfa we can only suspect he is just a large guy who won't have much impact.

The Browns appear to be going with a bunch of guys who are too small to stop the run, hey what a team philosophy.
One point, I think in the 4-3 or 3-4 is that Jordan Elliott has been pushed around in the past in what would be any of those spots, and I hope he never gets pushed around again as long as he's a Brown.

Whether the team lists them as a DL or DE or not, any player that ever weighs in at less than 260 lbs, I just consider a Linebacker playing out of position. I mean linebackers are 240-259 pounds consistently, if they want to call them DL who are they kidding.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I agree and know we don't have that big guy on the roster. That comment was more in the "wishing we had' category.

This is Elliotts 3rd year. As a former 3rd rounder , that is high enough in the draft you would expect to see some results that make you think he is a pretty good player..
As a former 3rd rounder. Gosh, one would think he was taken in the top 10 overall.
I remember hearing Mary Kay Cabot use this " former 3rd round" excuse as a reason the team would even keep him, last year...
there is literally nothing this player has done in his time on the Browns that would be more than expectations of a 7th round or UDFA,
How Hard it is for the team, or others to admit this guy was not a good pick.

Justin Gilbert was selected in the top 10, 7th overall iirc. could they build Justin Gilbert the cornerback who couldn't stay on a team, a freaking stature outside of Browns stadium by the same logic it takes to excuse that Jordan Elliott still starts or even gets significant playing time in this (analytics' idiocy) defense.
How Hard is it for them to admit a mistake.


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3rd round pick from AB > 1st round pick from Ray Farmer,


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I'll try to be nice so, Gilbert is at least off the team so there is no opportunity for him to play badly and hurt the Browns, which is better than the alternative.


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