DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Deshaun Watson Again

Which is ridiculous. I don’t understand this team’s risk management system. You pencil out like 5 potential outcomes when trading the farm for Watson and the ones the come at the end of “leave him be and let him take the civil suits as far as possible, potentially all way to dozens of trials” has such an incredibly low chance for anything that could be defined as success. Like I said, anyone with a passing understanding of this knows this is wrestling a pig, even if you win you’re covered head to toe in crap and a lot poorer regardless. And the team gets covered in the same crap while losing money and picks hand over fist. Just so so so stupid.

It's possible that was a stipulation from Watson's side that was necessary to close the deal.

In then end, winning, especially winning a SB, can mask the smell of mountains and mountains pig poop. See Kobe Bryant and Ben Roethlisberger. Also, neither franchise had their reputation tarnished.

All 22 cases will never go trial. At a certain point, Buzbee's time spent on every individual case in court will not be worth the ROI. He needs a big settlement for all 22 cases at one time. Hardin knows this and it's likely one of the reasons they are pushing for every case to go to trial. It's currently at a see who blinks first stalemate.

The scales of justice are supposed to be balanced not leaning to one side or the other. Much has been posted here about Watson being innocent until proven guilty and more so his playing this year for the Browns. What about the victims? Aren't they entitled to a speedy trial and the right to face the accused in court? Who does the seven-month break benefit? These women have nothing to gain by waiting another 7-months before these cases go to court. Watson on the other hand gets to be the face of the Cleveland Browns with celebrity status making millions of dollars while the women wait for justice to be served.

I believe in the justice system and innocence until proven guilty. Watson and his team of lawyers lost me as soon as he got a waiver from everything dealing with the cases during the football season. This is celebrity special treatment and a total disregard for the victims. This is not a single instance, this is a relationship with over 42 women and counting who at a minimum makes Watson a serial sexual diviant, and is accused of being a serial sexual abuser by 24 women.

Watson has been hired by the Cleveland Browns to be their QB. I'm fine with that as Watson is a talent that cannot be argued. What I can argue is that supporting a team that is hell bent on playing that person when they absolutely know that there is a 50% chance or more at this point that he will lose the civil suits in 2023 and be classified as a serial sexual abuser. My issue is if he's deemed an abuser in 2023, the Browns have insight to the fact he is an abuser today. Playing Watson with that knowledge will undoubtedly tarnish the image of the Cleveland Browns and the NFL for years and is a risk not worth taking.

There's also that chance that Watson is 50% or more innocent. If Watson goes to court to face his accusers and is deemed not guilty then I will support him as the Browns QB of the future. If the Browns insist on trying to play Watson before these women have their day in court then I'm not going to support him or the team. These women deserve their day in court and not on Watson's football guideline. By the way, that's not mob mentality - it's what is just and right for the victims and Watson.

If there is any silver lining, if he is suspended, he doesn't get paid, and he doesn't accrue seasons... and he doesn't impact our cap except for prorations of bonuses already paid. If he is suspended two full years, then in two years from now he will be playing the first of five years on the contract we just gave him.

Did not know this. I thought fully guaranteed meant just that. Well, that’s indeed a silver lining to a very dark cloud.

unless I misunderstand the CBA's stance on suspension years, this is it.

He's still guaranteed that money, just not in the calendar years currently laid out.

And that would have been the point at which I would have walked away from that deal. I pretty much would have handled it the way Miami intended to. I mean, we’re giving him the biggest contract in history, there was no give the other way?

And the Browns are sadly in a very different position than the Steelers and Lakers were. They had players that fell from grace long after they were on the roster and part of the city. The Browns actively went out and gave the biggest contract in history to a guy with almost 2 dozen(!) cases still pending, a guy that rejected them. I mean, how that doesn’t reflect very personally on the franchise and a city…. ?

It sounds like I really need to listen to this podcast. Work and home have me pretty busy right now so I was hoping to piece together the cliff's notes from on here... but it sounds like there's too much to that interview.

j/c:

The cool thing about rooting for a team is that one can just walk away if they disgust you so much. No one is forced to be a fan of a certain team. It's not like a child being raised by an abusive parent and is trapped in that horrific environment. The Browns play a game that is intended for our entertainment purposes. Now, if one played or worked for that team, it's a different story. And to be frank, it sure looks like Watson's teammates are embracing him being on the team.

Who can blame some fans if they choose to quit rooting for the Browns. It's a personal choice and doesn't tarnish your character. And in the end, no one really cares if you choose to stop supporting the team. The only exception I have is when people are desperately trying to recruit others to trash the player and team. It's a personal decision and should be respected no matter which decision you make.

Another factor - those instances were nearly 2 decades ago. Today it's a different landscape than it was even 5 years ago with these types of allegations, public awareness and perceived levels of acceptance. It doesn't matter if your name is Harvey Weinstein, Al Franken, Charlie Rose, Steve Wynn or Deshaun Watson .... the landscape is entirely different.

I don't think that is a fair way to look at it for guys who like me have been fans my entire life, or from 7-8 years old anyway. And being a DIE HARD fan for 50+ years, walking away is almost not an option. But it may be the only option for some.

Not sure how respecting someone's choice w/out judging them is unfair, but okay.

I was referring to this : "The cool thing about rooting for a team is that one can just walk away if they disgust you so much." Not getting into whatever debate you are having. Sorry, should have quoted it.

j/c:

Re their contention that the league will be inclined to wait it out for some kind of resolution so as not to get it wrong… I don’t see why a very viable option for the league isn’t just to throw the book at him right off the bat and maybe walk it back a little bit appeals after the fact if it seems appropriate. I mean, too much discipline? Who’s going to complain? Cleveland? Pfft, who cares about Browns fans? They look strong on the subject and it’s just Cleveland that takes it in the chin.

I didn't take it like the league will be inclined to wait. I took it as a possibility. I understand that no one cares much about fairness, but waiting until all the facts are out would be the fair thing to do.

With that said, I posted the video more for the commentary how we are a legit Super Bowl contender if Watson plays most of the season. I like talking about football and that's why I used to enjoy how pure football talk was separated from legal matters, politics, social issues, etc.

From a pure football standpoint he’s totally exciting on the Browns roster. I mean, we’re devastating on paper with his arm, feet and vision. A whole head and shoulders above what we were last year or even 2020. How do you defend us? I guess having a weak WR room is where you start but we don’t have many weaknesses on O with him in the lineup. But it really is one of those “apart from that, the play was fantastic, wouldn’t you agree Mrs Lincoln?” kinda things.

I understand and I wasn't getting on you. I just enjoy football talk.

I admit, I never paid much attention to Watson before he came here. But I just hope he can be half as good as the hype felt for him, pure football wise.

Easy double cooper
Best db on Dpj
Put a safety on njoku
Then chubb faces a 8 man box all game
Offensively they run right at us this defense finished 20th
Against the rush and we are significantly weaker now then last
Year.

in a pure football sense, the Watson situation is about football. Dog would want you to believe that Watson's ability to throw the ball or run to gain time is the pure football. That if his skills can uplift another player or throw a timely pass. However, pure football is more than just the skills exhibited on the field. Once you put on that uniform you are a representative of not only now but the past as well. The impact on the franchise through influence and your character are as important as the skill set you bring to the game. Still, it is perhaps the most significant indicator of predicting success or failure in a demanding environment such as the NFL. Character matters and it's too often overlooked. It isn't only the skill set that is going to lead the team to a championship, it's the character you display on and off the field. You're also representing those who came before you who displayed those skill sets and character such as:

Hanford Dixon: the creator of the modern day "Dawg Pound"
Clay Matthews Jr: still leads the team in career tackles
Lou Gorza: "The Toe"
Leroy Kelly: 2nd in franchise history in rushing yds
Dante Lavelli: "Gluefingers", 2nd all time in franchise receiving yards
Paul Warfield: arguably the greatest wide receiver to ever wear a Browns uniform
Joe Thomas: greatest Browns lineman in franchise history
Ozzie Newsome: who did much more than just play the game
Otto Graham: "The GOAT" in footballs early years
A host of others............


Including Watson into this group with his off the field unresolved issues is a disgrace to these men of character, memories they left, and to the Cleveland Browns image.

Just ruminating: We would have been in a much better place had we selected Josh Allen instead of Mayfield. We would have had our franchise QB, retained all those draft picks, and a lot less 'problems'. Ah, the benefit of hindsight....

Only if we had grabbed their coach when we had the chance as well. I don't remember if we passed him over instead of Hue or Freddie, but Allen would've been about 3-4 QBs back on "The Jersey" by now if we drafted him.

I agree w/you and I think the narrative from Baker fans that we would have ruined Allen is pure hogwash. On the other hand, it is extremely hard to evaluate college qbs due to the differences between the two games. Allen was the 3rd qb taken that year. Many had him 4th on their list. History shows that evaluating how college qbs will transition to the NFL is difficult. Trubisky was drafted quite a bit ahead of Mahomes and Watson. Tua was drafted ahead of Herbert. We can go on and on. So while I agree it proved to be a mistake, it's understandable.

If we wouldn't have ruined him, we would've dumped him after 1.5 poor seasons. IIRC, we were less than a year removed from the Kizer, Hogan, etc QB carousel.

The major issue with QB's coming into the NFL is whether the drafting team will build their team to the players skill set or if they will try to change the player to some conceived scheme. A vast majority of failed QB's in the league are due to the drafting team trying to change the player. That's not to be confused with fixing mechanics or footwork. Allen would have never survived in Cleveland because they wouldn't have stood for the risks and accuracy issues he had early on. In the last 2 decades, the Browns have never let a QB grow. In any case, BAL changed their entire offense to capitalize on Jackson's skill set. KCC built their offense for Mahomes skill set. CIN has done that with Burrow's. Rodgers in GB, Wilson in SEA, Prescott in DAL, and Brees in NO. There's more and of course supporting staff helps greatly but drafting a player at QB in the first round and then trying to mold him into something he isn't fails more times than not.

That is why I'm not sold on Watson being successful in Cleveland. His skill set is way outside the scheme that Stefanski will run. People will say that Stefanski will change the offense but IMHO, I'm very skeptical of that statement.

You have been skeptical about a few pretty important things this season:

Any good QBs wanting to come to the Browns because of Stefanski’s scheme
The Browns entire cap space situation
How the league views Baker Mayfield

Excuse me if I don’t trust your instincts.

To be fair - I only remember posts about top flight WR not wanting to sign here. I do not recall a discussion about QB's not wanting to play here. Cap Space and Baker - most certainly have been on the agenda.

j/c...

j/c...

No team in the NFL was throwing away Josh Allen after two seasons... or three, or four.

Way too many plus plays would have occurred, in any city. Too many "wow, I've never seen that before" moments, those too were inevitable.

In this particular case (Cleveland) you're basically saying Baker survived where Josh Allen wouldn't have. I have no idea how anyone can come to that conclusion.

j/c:

You don't have to trust my instincts.

No top tier QB considered coming to Cleveland as a free agent. The Browns had to trade for one and dang near mortgaged the team to get it done with a contract the likes that has never been signed before in the NFL.

Cap is an issue, in fact, the Browns are already over the projected cap number for 2023 with 8 free agents needing signed. That's not saying the Browns won't make adjustments, but players will be cut, certain players won't be signed, and FA's will be minimal. Cap will be an issue going forward whether you want to believe that or not.

Mayfield is PUP and been PUP since January - tell me a team that has ever signed a new QB to their roster that was on the PUP list or traded for one.

The fault with that logic would be that DW had a no trade clause and effectively he decided where he was going. You can say his decision was based on the $$$ but you just wrote "not top QB considered coming to Cleveland" - because of the no trade clause DW was virtually a free agent. If you made these comments before I missed them - I have seen posts talking about WR not wanting to be under KS, not the QB angle.

The court of public opinion is about to get many times louder than it’s already been. The pressure on the league is going to get stupid. My very inexpert prediction is that the nfl drops the hammer and big before this season. Would not be 1 tiny bit surprised if he’s gone the whole year and appeals net nothing. The Browns should prepare for that possibility. Will they? I don’t see too much evidence of smartly anticipated moves so far. But Brisket is not a starter. A Baker trade maybe nets someone else’s backup. Any intriguing backups out there?

This is incorrect.

Watson chose the Browns. One of the reasons given was that he loved Stefanski and his offense. You said he would never choose the Browns because of Stefanski’s offense. Let’s not have revisionist history.

You also said we didn’t have the cap to get anyone significant this off-season.

You think a surgically repaired non-throwing shoulder is what is holding back the Baker trade? Let’s pretend Aaron Rodgers left shoulder was injured, do we think a team would trade for him? Derek Carr? Kirk Cousins?

Come on, man. Are Kizer, Hogan, and Kessler even in the league? They were terrible. Comparing them to Josh Allen is nuts. Hell, Baker is a far superior qb to those guys and we didn't dump him after a year and half and he isn't even in the same stratosphere as Allen.