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I totally disagree, the final say is the HC. He has the responsibility to field the best team possible week in and week out. I don't care if Mayfield had the Pope next to his locker supporting him playing, if Mayfield was unable to perform at a satisfactory level due to injury, then the HC had the responsibility to yank him from the lineup. If Mayfield was hampered yet still was the best they had, then the HC should have taken responsibility for the lack of production due to his not having a qualified backup that could step in and manage the team better than an injured QB. Any player worth his salt in self esteem and competitiveness would demand that they play if they could crawl out there on the field. That is the exact type of guy a team wants playing every position. As the HC, you have a responsibility to shut said player down if the injury could get worse or if the player just can't perform as close to normal as possible. I challenge anyone on this forum to say that the way Mayfield performed after his injury was anywhere close to the way he performed the previous 12 games. That's a HC issue and has been an issue. It would be nice if Stefanski was held responsible for some of the issues caused last year - but no, it's all Mayfield's fault. That's not even taking in consideration that both OT's were out or injured, both RB's missed time, and a WR corp that was suspect at best with no #1 and a #2 admitting he played the year injured and was not up to par. Hmmm, still all Mayfield's fault.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
No, not really but great way to dodge the discussion. Touche' if that was your goal. #you'rejustheretofight

Do you think Stefanski asked Baker the simple question of "Can you go?" Did Baker answer yes when he should have answered no? Simple put, Baker is responsible for Baker.


So yes, you could have just said "you are right" and stopped. All your dancing deflects from this being Baker's responsibility. He is a professional athlete. He has final say on what he eats, what he lifts and when he plays (well, doesn't play).

And to the silly remark about fans. If Baker says "I can't go" do you think Stefanski would say to the press "Baker's being a baby and won't play?"

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It doesn't matter if Baker said he could go. The HC has to evaluate the play on the field. I mean, what the hell is his job anyway if he's not going to evaluate the players performance but just play him because he said he wanted to play. Again, why do the Browns need a HC if he isn't going to have the final say on who plays or who doesn't? Certainly, he shouldn't be giving up that responsibility to a player, you think?


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HC is resppndible for who plays. Period. Baker played badly. Yes. Baker was willing to go out and play... He may have even desperately wanted to play. The decision on who plays is the HC


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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Do you think Stefanski asked Baker the simple question of "Can you go?" Did Baker answer yes when he should have answered no? Simple put, Baker is responsible for Baker.

Stefanski is the HC. It's his responsibility to watch the players during practice that week, talk to the medical staff and determine who the starter should be. And "Can you go"? Baker could go, he did go, he did play those games. Once again, you act like an athlete would want to sit on the bench if he thought he could play. That's why it's the decision of the HC based on what he had seen during the week in practice and medical staff clearing the player to play. Between the medical staff and the coaching staff they are paid millions upon millions of dollars to make such decisions. That's actually in their job descriptions to do so. And you act as if the responsibility they get paid to do is somehow Baker's fault becaue you disagree with the calls they made.


Quote
And to the silly remark about fans. If Baker says "I can't go" do you think Stefanski would say to the press "Baker's being a baby and won't play?"

Why wouldn't they? You claim he played a half a season too long. There are a lot of fans claiming he quit on the team by doing exactly what you propose he should have done by mid season. He took himself out of the last game and we have all seen the claims that meant Baker quit on the team. Have you been reading the board? Yes athletes who are competitive and cleared by the medical staff to play should be expected to say they don't want to play. That's why these decisions are the responsibility of the medical and coaching staffs instead of the players.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Once again, you act like an athlete would want to sit on the bench if he thought he could play.


And yet he couldn't play. That's also part of the immaturity.

Baker is still ultimately responsible for Baker. And yes, an athlete should know if he can go or not. Obviously Baker thought he could and was wrong.

It wasn't just his physical play that has been questioned, his decision making was as well, and this demonstrates that was faulty.

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Yeah, the coach making the call on who starts is a sign that Baker is immature. I'm not the only one who sees the frivolity of your assertions.


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Frank, a few years ago there was a radio, then tv show in the morning on espn , mike and mike. It was Greenberg and former nfl d lineman mike Golic, our bob golic’sbrother. Greenie once asked Golic if he ever had an injury , the coach asked him if he was able to go that day , and he answered no. Golic replied never. That football players, at the pro level have it ingrained in them that they play. Period. He said he had seen players set down by the coach but he could not remember hearing a player beg off due to injury. Speaking of game day only of course.

So the fact that baker played thru injury does not surprise me . The fact that the coach kept running him out there when he clearly could not perform at the accustomed level does surprise me, especially given coach’s experience with case k.

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Back to football.

The Browns have a real shot if Watson can play all or all but four games this year. It's just hard to be definitive because we don't know how Judge Robinson will rule and if there will be an appeal.

So, my two biggest concerns are the WRs after Cooper. We need some real consistency from at least two of the guys. Bell and DPJ are probably the two I have the most hope for, but nothing is a given.

The other that is a huge question mark are the DTs. It's a bit surprising we didn't bring in one vet considering that the 4-2-5 is best if there is a big DT who can eat up blocks and allow the smaller, faster guys to run wild chasing down the ball.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Yeah, the coach making the call on who starts is a sign that Baker is immature. I'm not the only one who sees the frivolity of your assertions.


Oh yeah.. that's what I said... aw shucks. Quit trying to twist things. The coach makes the call on who plays, ones the decision is made on who CAN play.

I said Baker makes the decision if he CAN play. If he says he can't play Stefanski can't force him to do so.

I am a professional. I know if I am too sick to work. I tell my boss I can't go if I can't go.

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DT is a question for sure.

Jordan Elliott is expected to deliver? He added weight and knows this is his chance.

I don't know what to expect from Taven Bryan? The rest Sheldon Day ok backup. Togiai?

I like Perrion. He is a rookie. So we shall see how he does in camp.

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I am a "show-me" kind of guy. Thus, I question the DTs and the WRs after Cooper. But, that doesn't mean I think these guys suck and can't do the job. I just haven't seen it on the field yet. Hopefully, we get some production from a couple of these guys. We very well could. I just need to see it to believe it.

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This will be ~100th time we've hashed this out. Nobody is going to be convinced at this point.

KS makes the ultimate call on who starts. Baker has a bunch of input, but (except in cases of extremely serious injury where Medical says they need to shut him down). Baker was playing for his contract, and has a history of betting on himself. It's up to the coach to make roster decisions that are in the best interest of the team.

So if we absolutely must blame one person (these situations rarely come down to one scapegoat) I'm pointing at KS.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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They are unproven no question.

Hopefully they are at least average and not a liability.

Receiver outside of Cooper is like a package. I expect more TE passes and more throws to backs.

DPJ has showed steady improvement and I thought suffered last year from poor qb play.

Schwartz, Bell and any of the UDFA's go get you some. Prove you can play. Camp competition.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I am a "show-me" kind of guy. Thus, I question the DTs and the WRs after Cooper. But, that doesn't mean I think these guys suck and can't do the job. I just haven't seen it on the field yet. Hopefully, we get some production from a couple of these guys. We very well could. I just need to see it to believe it.


I am too, but I am not as concerned about the DTs' for this season, because to me it's been a weakness for a number of years and they would really need to play very poorly to be as bad as they have been. The one thing we have going for us this season is that we wont be counting on an older guy there who should have previously been retired. Winfrey is also a wild card here, because he could be a quick student (or not) of his position ... we just don't know that much yet ... at least we have him for an option going forward. Elliot and probably Day will be our NTs' ... and that position is not one for the box scores (in our defense) to know how they are playing as far as their assignments go.

With WR, Bell is the main guy that we hope can contribute right away ... I am not as high on DPJ as some others, because I think that he has some limitations to his game, but he is a guy who can and will contribute to our success from that position too. Schwartz is the guy who will show us whether we need to bring in another Veteran receiver or not, and I believe that it is a legitimate concern at this time.

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Good take.

Team play. You can not have a team of stars. Units need to perform together.

DL for Berry is a unit he likes to keep players fresh. He wants guys in rotation. We have some young guys that were drafted. Clowney and Myles will do their work. The others need to go hard when they rotate in.

The backend is tight. I like the defense. I think the overall defense will be good.

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Originally Posted by FrankZ
I said Baker makes the decision if he CAN play. If he says he can't play Stefanski can't force him to do so.

This isn't complicated. The coach watches every practice all week. It's his duty to determine who is performing and who is not. It is his call to make based on what the medical staff tells him and what he sees in practice. That's why the call rests on his shoulders, not the players. How many weeks do you think Stefanski could watch Baker perform poorly with this/these injuries and not sit him? How many weeks do you think are reasonable to continue to play him no matter what he says in terms of being able to play? It seems that even if your scenario were correct, that you think Stefanski has no responsibility for continuing to trot Baker out there when it's obvious he can't perform to his normal level. Yeah, keep beating that drum.


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Back to football.

The Browns have a real shot if Watson can play all or all but four games this year. It's just hard to be definitive because we don't know how Judge Robinson will rule and if there will be an appeal.

So, my two biggest concerns are the WRs after Cooper. We need some real consistency from at least two of the guys. Bell and DPJ are probably the two I have the most hope for, but nothing is a given.

The other that is a huge question mark are the DTs. It's a bit surprising we didn't bring in one vet considering that the 4-2-5 is best if there is a big DT who can eat up blocks and allow the smaller, faster guys to run wild chasing down the ball.

Outside of QB, the Browns have more than a few question marks going into 2022.

OL, no doubt, the Browns have the best OG tandem in the league. Harris replacing Tretter was the right move but is he really ready to call the line plays and lead the group? We'll find out early if he is going to be the leader of the OL. OT has more questions than some would want to admit. Conklin is a huge question mark. Aside from the fact that his contract voids the 2023-2024 years on the 5th day of the 2023 league year waiver period, his injury concerns could put the Browns in a similar position as last year which wasn't good. Wills is in a prove it year since the Browns must decide next May 2023 whether to exercise the 5th year option or not. Wills cannot continue to be just a serviceable LT, he needs to step up to the plate and become a dominate LT and the anchor of the OL. OT has some huge question marks that will need to be answered early because they will affect 2022 and certainly 2023 going forward.

TE, the Browns took the gamble and signed Njoku to a big deal. I don't understand after 5 years of below average play that the Browns believe the light is finally going to come on for the 1st round pick that has averaged only 30 catches per year. Normally, teams don't talk about the upside of a player after being in the league for 5-years, pretty big gamble on the part of the Browns on this player. Actually, Bryant might be the guy at TE. It'll be interesting to see if he continues to improve and pressures Njoku for catches.

WR, Cooper is clearly the #1WR. Is he an upgrade over OBJ? IMHO, considering the production the Browns got out of OBJ, Cooper will be an upgrade. Let's just hope he doesn't get banged up. DPJ and maybe Bell might be WR2 with a crap shoot for WR3 but need to show big improvement to fill Landry's shoes. There's been a lot of production out of the WR2 in the Browns offense. Huge question marks as to whether either one of these guys can step up to the plate to fill that void. The Browns have plenty of cap, maybe they'll be looking to add a vet during camp. As of today, WR has not been an upgrade and will be a concern if these young guys don't step up early in 2022 and a nightmare if Cooper goes down.

The defense is looking pretty good in all areas except for DT. PFF graded the Browns DT's at the bottom of the league in 2021. What was a concern in 2021 is still a huge concern in 2022. The Malik's are gone but Elliott PFF graded out worse than the Malik's did in 2021. That doesn't look promising since it would appear Elliott needs to get better to reach the Malik's level. Stopping the run starts with your DT's and the Browns have been weak for decades in the critical points of the game. There's a lot of moving pieces with new faces and a rookie. This has been the Browns achilles for years especially late in games when teams run out the clock controlling the ball with the run against the Browns. The Browns were 3rd in the division in stopping the run and needs to get better to win the AFC North.

RB, best tandem in the league.


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9 players count for over $18 million dead cap space for Browns
Jared Mueller
Mon, July 4, 2022 at 9:42 AM

The Cleveland Browns salary cap will be discussed significantly over the next few years. For fans, the team having highly paid players at multiple positions is unique. Myles Garrett, Denzel Ward, Nick Chubb, Joel Bitonio, Wyatt Teller and David Njoku have signed long-term deals after being drafted and/or developed by the team.

In the past, fans have only looked forward to Joe Thomas, Joe Haden or free agents from other teams making big money in Cleveland. In 2022, and beyond, the Browns are full of well-paid talent.

With that comes a limit with the salary cap. While many will say ‘the salary cap is fake’ because it can be manipulated, the salary cap is a reality that, at times, can cause the middle of the roster to move on to other teams leaving some highly paid players and players on rookie contracts to make up most of the roster.

Going into 2022, almost $19 million of the team’s salary cap space is taken up with dead money paid out to nine players. Of those nine players, two are still on the team’s roster, two were traded and the other five were released:

TE Austin Hooper - $3.75 million
Perhaps Andrew Berry’s worst decision so far, Hooper flopped as a top-level free agent addition and was released this offseason. His $3.75 million cap hit is the 15th highest on this year’s Browns roster.
His dead cap jumps to $7.5 million in 2023.

DE Jadeveon Clowney - $3.6 million
One of the recent salary cap techniques used recently is void years. The void years allow teams to spread out salary cap hits. Clowney returned on another one-year contract for 2022 that also includes another 4 void years.
His 2021 contract had a similar structure which, when he didn’t sign an extension before the new league year, voided creating the $3.6 million in dead cap for 2022 despite him being back on the team.
Combined, his two cap hits are around $7 million for 2022 but is set to be over $6 million in dead cap hit in 2023.

CB Troy Hill - $2.6 million
Another free agent addition that didn’t pan out, Berry traded Hill back to Los Angeles during the NFL draft. Cleveland still has $2.6 million on their cap for Hill in 2022.

QB Case Keenum - $2.3 million
The other traded player, Cleveland moved Keenum to Buffalo this offseason and replaced him with Jacoby Brissett for the 2022 season. Keenum played well at times for the Browns but was limited.

DT Malik Jackson - $1.9 million
Cleveland used the void years to add veteran Malik Jackson as well. Jackson was a stopgap measure who showed his age throughout the season. Due to the void years, Jackson (who is still a free agent) will cost almost $2 million against the salary cap and the Browns defensive tackle room is still full of questions.

OL J.C. Tretter - $1.6 million
The NFLPA President is still a free agent but the Browns will be moving forward with Nick Harris as their center. Tretter played well in Cleveland and played despite a lot of injury issues.
The dead cap on his extension is just a little under $2 million.

WR Jarvis Landry - $1.5 million
Jarvis Landry was the heart and soul of the Cleveland revival since coming over in a trade with the Miami Dolphins. While there were some reports that he could return after being released, Landry instead signed for an incentive-laden contract with his home state New Orleans Saints.
Landry’s release saved the team significant cap space but still costs $1.5 million against the salary cap.

LB Anthony Walker Jr. - $1.2 million
The other player still on the roster for 2022 is Walker. Like Clowney, Walker signed a one-year deal with the team in 2021 and again in 2022. Like Clowney, Walker’s new deal also had void years which will create over $2 million in dead hit in 2023.

S Sheldrick Redwine - $180K
The least of the dead cap hit, some fans may not remember much about Redwine’s time with the team. Since being released, the former Miami University product signed with three teams and is set to start training camp with the Miami Dolphins. The minimal dead cap space comes from his rookie contract with the Browns after being a fourth-round pick.


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I think a big key for our D will be the play of Taven Bryan. In the right defense he can be great. He is still young 26 for a DL. He has been thinking too much instead of just relaxing and playing football. He has excellent speed and good size playing with Clowney and Garrett will have him looking real good. Key is stopping the run on first down and get our opponents in pass mode then we can bring in Alex Wright as our 4th DL and attack the OL against the pass.

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To give the Yin to the Yang that is the dead money listed, how much did the team roll over from the previous year?

I mean, if they want a balanced article, don't just count the dead money without including the bonus money. The difference between the two is the REAL number.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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According this website, that dead cap figure list us as 17th in the league. I'm not too worried yet.
https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/nfl-teams-dead-money-salary-cap/


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
I said Baker makes the decision if he CAN play. If he says he can't play Stefanski can't force him to do so.

This isn't complicated. The coach watches every practice all week. It's his duty to determine who is performing and who is not. It is his call to make based on what the medical staff tells him and what he sees in practice. That's why the call rests on his shoulders, not the players. How many weeks do you think Stefanski could watch Baker perform poorly with this/these injuries and not sit him? How many weeks do you think are reasonable to continue to play him no matter what he says in terms of being able to play? It seems that even if your scenario were correct, that you think Stefanski has no responsibility for continuing to trot Baker out there when it's obvious he can't perform to his normal level. Yeah, keep beating that drum.


Unfortunately for Stefanski it came down to Hurt Baker vs. Keenum... Not hurt vs not hurt Baker. If Baker says he can go and a 60% healthy Baker gives you a better chance than a healthy Keenum, then Mayfield plays. I think this is the part that is lost too often. Do I think Mayfield was effected by the injuries? Absolutely. Were the injuries of the type that would have healed by sitting for two weeks? It didn't sound like it. Were they the type of injuries that were high risk of getting worse if playing? From both the medical and coaching staff, they said no. So.. the question comes down to, how much of Baker are you getting? Once that is determined, is that % of Baker better than what you can do on offense with Keenum? In nearly every case each week, it was the % of Baker available.

You can't simply say, if Baker isn't 100%, don't play him. The decision needs to be made on what available players give you the best opportunity to win. A 60% healthy Baker Mayfield equals a 90-100% healthy Case Keenum or Jacoby Brissett. As long as the injury isn't at risk of getting worse by playing.

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I agree with you. So far the argument seems to have been that even if week after week the coach saw Baker was under performing, it was not his responsibility to determine if he should still start Baker. That no matter what he saw on film, no matter what he saw in practice, he should ignore all of that because Baker said he could play and that's somehow all Baker's fault. It was a silly premise as anyone can see.

We know Stefanski saw the game film and broke it down every week. We know he saw Baker in practice every week. We know he talked to the medical staff every week. We know the sole responsibility of who starts rests with Stefanski. Based on these fact it appears he felt an injured Baker gave them a better chance to win than a healthy Keenum. Now people may very well disagree with that decision. But make no mistake you are cortrect that this is what the decision boiled down to.


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Then holding Mayfield accountable because he only performed up to that 60% level as the reason the Browns didn't make the playoffs when you knew he wasn't up to the level he has exhibited is just plain wrong. That brings us back to Stefanski. If in his mind Mayfield needed to perform at 80% of his former self but Mayfield could only give 60-65% due to injury limitations, why the hell did he keep trotting out a QB that couldn't perform up to expectations? Sooner or later, you'd think the ultimate decision maker would be held accountable for his decision making, up to and including his play calling and leaving an injured QB out there on an island with a Tackle that was clearly outclassed by one of the league's best pass rushers who's abusing your franchise QB and never making any adjustments. That said, any NFL player worth his salt would expect to play if they could make it on the field. The ultimate decision maker on the lineup is the person who's supposed to be the evaluator of the performance on the field and that's Stefanski. Stefanski still trotted Mayfield out there which ultimately led to leg injuries and even more lack of mobility. Player's play hurt all the time but if they can't perform to expectations then the HC is the ultimate decision maker and Stefanski not only failed Mayfield but the team as a whole by not addressing the obvious poorer play than expected.

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I think the point he is trying to make is that Stefanski must have felt that an injured Baker gave the Browns a better chance to win than a healthy Keenum. As I stated in my post above I'm sure there are fans who disagree with that based on Baker's performance and I understand why they would feel that way. Keenum was paid very well as a backup which I'm sure has an impact on why people would feel that way. If one thiks about it, Keenum would have been playing with the same OL as Baker.

I want to point out that I'm not trying to make excuses or agree with Stefanski's decision in continuing to start Baker. I felt very much the same way as yourself at the time. I'm just trying to keep in mind that I didn't have access to the game field nor the ability to see them both in practice with which to make an informed decision.


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I don't know a thing about Bryan. Glad to hear you have an opinion on him.

I watched the Senior Bowl line practice. Came away very impressed by Perrion Winfrey. Nobody handled him at practice. I looked into his college tape. It seemed like he was misused. He is not a gap eater. He is an upfield pressure tackle.

I think that the tackle positions will be manned by a four guy rotation.

So if each guy can hold his own and someone is able to step up and make some plays. We should be ok. I am not expecting miracles.


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Originally Posted by steve0255
Then holding Mayfield accountable because he only performed up to that 60% level as the reason the Browns didn't make the playoffs when you knew he wasn't up to the level he has exhibited is just plain wrong. That brings us back to Stefanski. If in his mind Mayfield needed to perform at 80% of his former self but Mayfield could only give 60-65% due to injury limitations, why the hell did he keep trotting out a QB that couldn't perform up to expectations? Sooner or later, you'd think the ultimate decision maker would be held accountable for his decision making, up to and including his play calling and leaving an injured QB out there on an island with a Tackle that was clearly outclassed by one of the league's best pass rushers who's abusing your franchise QB and never making any adjustments. That said, any NFL player worth his salt would expect to play if they could make it on the field. The ultimate decision maker on the lineup is the person who's supposed to be the evaluator of the performance on the field and that's Stefanski. Stefanski still trotted Mayfield out there which ultimately led to leg injuries and even more lack of mobility. Player's play hurt all the time but if they can't perform to expectations then the HC is the ultimate decision maker and Stefanski not only failed Mayfield but the team as a whole by not addressing the obvious poorer play than expected.

I couldn't agree more. I absolutely think Stefanski is more accountable than Mayfield. Maybe moreso, Berry for not having a better backup option ready in case of injury. At no point should the backup be a bigger liability than a 75% starter...80-95%, sure, I get it, but Mayfield was lucky if he was 70% during the majority of his playing time last year. When you have a middle of the road starter, it shouldn't be that difficult to find a backup that doesn't cause you to go to 50% of you playbook when missing time.

If that's the case, than 1) your GM needs to provide you with a better player or 2) the coach needs to make sure that backup is ready to go at all times. That is from training camp through the end of the season. If it doesn't happen, then one or the other need to be held accountable.

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How did this turn into another poor Baker thread while bashing others members of the team? Btw---it's a rhetorical question. No need to answer. The same few folks force-feeding their opinions down the throats of everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by THROW LONG
Top 5 Rb duo and top 5 Defense, ( The players were here last year and where was it?)

Our qb last year was ranked 30th by PFF. He was dead last in 4th quarter QBR. Watson is a top-tier qb. That should help winning some close games.

This was how Baker got introduced into the thread. No specific reference to Baker before this post that I see. From here people discussed the omission of "injured" which led to a discussion about whose responsibility it was to play Baker.

But in answer to the question "How did this turn into a Baker thread" - yes - it's the same source as normal.


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PFF released an article on June 30th entitled "NFL roster rankings for all 32 teams for 2022: Strengths, weaknesses and X factors for every starting lineup" They had the Browns 6th overall. The only teams ahead of them were Buffalo, Tampa Bay, Chargers, Rams, and Green Bay. Those are in order. I would say that Super Bowl aspirations are not out of the question.



6. CLEVELAND BROWNS
Biggest strength: Few teams have invested more in their offensive line than the Browns, and few teams have a better running back room than Cleveland. The result is one of the more devastating rushing attacks in the NFL. The Browns have averaged 4.8 yards per designed rushing attempt over the past two seasons under coach Kevin Stefanski, which is tied for highest in the league with the Baltimore Ravens. The right side of Cleveland's offensive line — Wyatt Teller and Jack Conklin — is an excellent run-blocking tandem.

Biggest weakness: Jadeveon Clowney‘s return on another one-year deal helped solidify the defensive end spot. Defensive tackle is a different story. Jordan Elliott, Taven Bryan, Perrion Winfrey, Sheldon Day and Tommy Togiai will be battling it out for snaps in 2022, but none of them profile as the run-stuffing defensive tackle that the Browns need to produce in the light boxes that defensive coordinator Joe Woods wants to operate out of. Cleveland's defensive tackles cumulatively earned the fifth-lowest PFF grade of any interior defensive line group in the league last season.

X factor for 2022: A lot of the focus at wide receiver in Cleveland is going to be placed on the new faces: Amari Cooper and David Bell. Nonetheless, 2022 is also going to be a big season for third-year wide receiver Donovan Peoples-Jones. The former five-star recruit averaged nearly 19 yards per reception across his first two NFL seasons, with some impressive highlight-reel plays that showcase his explosiveness and body control. The Browns will be counting on another jump from Peoples-Jones this season after he saw his targets increase from 20 as a rookie to 58 in 2021.

2022 Browns
OFFENSE ---------------------------------------------------DEFENSE
QB Deshaun Watson (92.5*)----------------------------- DI Jordan Elliott (41.6)
RB Nick Chubb (81.7) -------------------------------------DI Perrion Winfrey (59.7**)
RB Kareem Hunt (74.4)------------------------------------Edge Myles Garrett (92.0)
WR Amari Cooper (73.0)---------------------------------- Edge Jadeveon Clowney (66.5)
WR Donovan Peoples-Jones (65.7)----------------------- LB Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah (76.5)
WR David Bell (87.5**)----------------------------------- LB Anthony Walker (69.1)
TE David Njoku (70.9)-------------------------------------CB Denzel Ward (76.9)
LT Jedrick Wills Jr. (66.1)----------------------------------CB Greg Newsome II (68.1)
LG Joel Bitonio (93.6)------------------------------------- CB Greedy Williams (64.6)
C Nick Harris (70.0)--------------------------------------- S John Johnson III (68.7)
RG Wyatt Teller (84.9)------------------------------------ S Ronnie Harrison Jr. (60.8)
RT Jack Conklin (78.8)------------------------------------ S Grant Delpit (63.3)

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Our roster is so solid. Lots of talent thanks to Berry and Dorsey making good trades and draft choices. We finally have some continuity in the FO and hopefully the coaching staff. We seem to have a ton of really smart guys who are willing to put their necks on the line to bring Cleveland a winner. I think that managing the salary cap won't be a big issue for our FO. I trust their intelligence and savvy.

Our roster is really good in several key areas. We have a top flight QB. One of the best--if not the best--offensive lines in football. Our Edge rushers are damn good, maybe elite. We have excellent corners. Those are the foundations of teams. Those are the units who are the most important. In addition, our RB room is as good as it gets, even if that isn't one of the cornerstones of a great football team.

Things are looking up for the Browns and I'm really excited to see how this unfolds.

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If anyone is interested, Cinci was 8th, Baltimore 12th, and Pittsburgh 22nd.

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I agree this is a well built roster. One of the first moves Berry made was extending Myles.
He is a great player in his prime.

Berry was very methodical. He built the OL. He secured the running backs. Then went to work on the defense. We have a really good secondary that is deep.

We have a good balance of guys in their prime and really good young talent.

Going forward the Browns will be an easy roster to keep up.

In my humble opinion Andrew Berry is one the best young GM's in football. I have no issue with Stefanski. I like the guy. He made some mistakes but he is not an egotist. He will learn from his mistakes. I like the offense and the defense. I believe in both schemes. Once DW plays I think we will be dynamic offensively.

We have a bunch of exciting players to watch. I can not remember having a roster like this that was for the part developed.

The Browns are in position to be really good for a long time.

I hope that the Haslams keep management together. Continuity is paying off.

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Originally Posted by IrishDawg42
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
I said Baker makes the decision if he CAN play. If he says he can't play Stefanski can't force him to do so.

This isn't complicated. The coach watches every practice all week. It's his duty to determine who is performing and who is not. It is his call to make based on what the medical staff tells him and what he sees in practice. That's why the call rests on his shoulders, not the players. How many weeks do you think Stefanski could watch Baker perform poorly with this/these injuries and not sit him? How many weeks do you think are reasonable to continue to play him no matter what he says in terms of being able to play? It seems that even if your scenario were correct, that you think Stefanski has no responsibility for continuing to trot Baker out there when it's obvious he can't perform to his normal level. Yeah, keep beating that drum.


Unfortunately for Stefanski it came down to Hurt Baker vs. Keenum... Not hurt vs not hurt Baker. If Baker says he can go and a 60% healthy Baker gives you a better chance than a healthy Keenum, then Mayfield plays. I think this is the part that is lost too often. Do I think Mayfield was effected by the injuries? Absolutely. Were the injuries of the type that would have healed by sitting for two weeks? It didn't sound like it. Were they the type of injuries that were high risk of getting worse if playing? From both the medical and coaching staff, they said no. So.. the question comes down to, how much of Baker are you getting? Once that is determined, is that % of Baker better than what you can do on offense with Keenum? In nearly every case each week, it was the % of Baker available.

You can't simply say, if Baker isn't 100%, don't play him. The decision needs to be made on what available players give you the best opportunity to win. A 60% healthy Baker Mayfield equals a 90-100% healthy Case Keenum or Jacoby Brissett. As long as the injury isn't at risk of getting worse by playing.

Serious question - How do you all think it would have played out had Stefanski sat Baker while Baker was in the press and on social media saying that he can play?


How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?

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Then that would show me that Stefanski doesn't have control of his team. That should be rule one of any HC that any concerns or disagreement are settled and kept in house. It should be assumed that Mayfield and Stefanski are watching the same film. If so, then it's Stefanski's responsibility to point out the issues he's having with Mayfield's play and his concern that the injury is having a bigger impact than what any of them thought. Maybe, that's the issue between Mayfield and Stefanski that they are not open and truthful with one another. Having been a corporate manager for decades and dealing with people on a daily basis, show me a poor communicator and I'll show you a poor manager.

Last edited by steve0255; 07/05/22 04:50 PM. Reason: spelling

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I'm going to point to the turd in the koolaide punch bowl here:

We have (2) very, very good Gs...a very average-at-best-at-the-moment LT...an oft-injured RT coming off a serious knee injury who is very good when healthy (which wasn't a thing last year)...and a 5th Rd C with (2) career starts who has shown promise and has the confidence of the staff. It's a good OL...not dominant...nor was it last year outside of G-C-G...the backups look promising with many to choose from;

There is no place on earth where our TEs are cause for optimism...they continue to be nothing but P-O-T-E-N-T-I-A-L;

We have (1) WR who would see the field if he were a Bengal...which is (1) more guy than we had last year...we need (2) young guys to figure it out and have a 3rd Rd rookie compensatory pick who is very promising;

We are loaded at RB...absolutely loaded...just like we were last year;

We have either a very, very good QB or we have a very marginal QB...I'll leave it at that;

We have (2) very good DEs...the backups look promising with many to choose from;

We have a bunch of DTs...none of whom are thought of as being a run defender...I fear we are boom-or-bust here...we have a lot of backup-quality guys to choose from here...but (2) will have to start;

We have (1) LB who I'd say is very good and a difference-maker...there is potential in really only (1) other guy...a dud vet in the mold of Rainier/DQ/Kirksey...a good situational guy...and a bunch of 3rd-string quality backups;

We are - dare I say - loaded in the defensive backfield.

Regardless of who plays QB...we need a lot of improvement from the pass-catchers (again) or any QB will struggle (again). When a team unloads its top TE and top (3) WRs from the prior year...you know you had crap at the positions. You have to score points in the NFL or you are going nowhere...and outside of our RBs...we don't have the explosiveness that the "good" teams have at their disposal.

I realize that my take here is pessimistic...and I hope guys like bone are correct and I am mistaken...but the QB uncertainty aside, there are a lot of things that have to fall right for us to be a playoff-caliber team...including players doing things they've not yet done in the NFL.

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First, things always have to fall right. No matter how good, there is always some degree of luck involved. Or maybe rather than saying luck, a lack of misfortune.



Just to focus on two areas of positions.

Center. I am not a big fan of Harris, but most of that comes from his poor play at guard. The coaches say he is ready. We'll soon enough find out if that is true or them just flapping their lips. Behind him I see two pretty good options. Pocic and Deason both look like good options IMO if Harris proves to be a "guy".

Receivers.

I think teams waste too much time on guys. Either you can catch or you can't. If the guy doesn't already know how to do it by the time he is 20, you are wasting your time. Just cut them. I don't care if they are fast or not, I don't care how tall they are, etc. If they can't catch, cut them. Keep the guys who can. I don't care if all receivers are rookies. If they can catch, keep them. Again, cut the guys who can't. You started to learn to catch at whatever age it was when a parent or sibling threw that first ball that hit you in the face.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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Perhaps pessimistic, perhaps more a dose of reality than folks want to admit.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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j/c:

The Browns had PFF's #1 ranked OL in 2020.

Even w/all the injuries in 2021, the Browns OL ranked 8th overall in 2021.

This year, the preseason PFF rankings have the Browns at number 3 overall.

Our RBs are very good and will succeed. Our QB this year won't take a ton of needless sacks. Unless the injury bug rears its ugly head, the OL is not a concern. In fact, it is a strength.

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