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Originally Posted by mgh888
Purple ? Now I'm confuddled.

If you would just listen to Vers, your life would be a lot easier... he speaks the truth.

No matter the issue, he has it all figured out. This endless banter trying to prove any point is futile. If you don't toe the line, you are:

* Racist (a new one)

* A "Baker Boy"

* Narrow-minded

* Not a real Browns fan and hope they lose

* Gullible enough to believe a bunch of lying call girls

* Etc, etc, etc...


Get with the program, dawg.


HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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Originally Posted by DogNDC
Any good arbitrator is going to take their time and look at all the evidence. Or even the lack of evidence and then write up what and where the law applies.

This has nothing to do with "the law". All it has to do with is the NFL personal conduct policy. And no, there is no reason to take this much time to look at non evidence.

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And yes, she will look at any precedence the NFL has done in the past.

So you're saying that the NFPA and the NFL came to a new agreement on how to deal with this issue because the NFLPA thought the prior way if dealing with this was wrong. And now you and some others think they're going to use past precedence based on a system the NFLPA felt was so wrong they negotiated a new way of dealing with such infractions? Really?

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So taking her time is not a big deal. And we know that Watson did not commit any crime so he is up right now.

Once again, the NFL personal conduct policy has nothing to do with criminal proceedings.

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And how ever hard she comes down on Watson, the NFL will have to do something about the Texans. Why, because they were accomplices. The Texans cannot say they knew nothing about what was going on ..(* even though they are trying too *). SO if Watson sues, then he gets to tell the tale of how the Texans supported him!!!.

So you mean watson would have to confess to what he was doing and that the Texans helped him do it? You can't be serious.

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So you got Snyder investigation which was so bad the NFL had their investigators NOT WRITE DOWN WHAT THEY FOUND... Then my boy Kraft (* I would not bring myself to punish a 80 yr old for going to get one rubbed out *) and now the Texans helping Watson.....

Better settle this quick!

The best thing watson could do is settle this quick. If not his career is on hold until he does. You seem to take anything you hear in reported articles as gospel as long as it supports your side of the argument. You may be in for a big surprise.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
The taking her time take is so freaking weak. If she would have ruled quickly and decided on no suspension or a very small one, the haters would be screaming about how the whole process was rigged and the NFL doesn't care about women.

Yes, she's just sitting back sipping Martini's waiting on two sides that spent months failing to negotiate a settlement to do so in a couple of weeks. Speaking of weak.

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Btw........just watch........they will still do the same if Sue Robinson doesn't suspend Watson for a long time. They might be the vocal majority on this board, but they are in the minority when it comes to the majority of Browns fans. Read the comments after the videos and articles that are being posted.

And there were those, including yourself who claimed you would accept her decision no matter the outcome. Watch you whine if it turns out she's tough on him. Even after claiming you would accept her decision you have clamored for a lawsuit if it ends up being a long suspension.

Stop pretending, whining and playing victim. Your shtick is getting old.

just editing to add. The NFL isn't concerned with "Browns fans" per say. The Browns are 1 of 32 teams. Browns fans have a vested interest it watson playing. To them it's more important than almost anything obviously. None of this hinges on "what Browns fans think". Steeler fans were standing beside Ben too.

Last edited by PitDAWG; 07/20/22 01:25 PM.

Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
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maybe if enough supporters that share my view voice their opinion maybe the NFL will listen.

I prefer that the legal system determines a man's guilt or innocence over mob mentality.

Yet the NFL personal conduct policy isn't a court of law and the players contractually agreed to this process. So much for your false narrative.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I didn't really think you were implying it, but I was just clarifying my intent because I probably wasn't very clear about it when I made my post last night.

I think that things will only "go there" if the NFL imposes an unfairly harsh penalty. That's why the threat of the class action suit might give Goodell pause if he is thinking of increasing the suspension after Sue Robinson makes her decision.

Over half of our nations population are women. 13.4 percent are black. I'm pretty sure the NFL can do the math here.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by DogNDC
Purple,
A grand jury decision is based off can the prosecutor convince a jury that a there is enough evidence that the state has compiled to determine if criminal charges SHOULD be brought. 2 different grand juries said NO!!!.. That is why the lawyer for those women went the civil route. So what this does say is that Watson did not do anything that could be CRIMINALLY charged.

Now link that with the NFL only bringing 5 cases to the arbitrator and even then found no evidence of violence, threats or physical conduct... the NFL needs to settle and get out of there!!

1. No, that is NOT why they went the civil route. That was happening anyway regardless of the outcome of the criminal proceedings.
2. A grand jury decision is nothing more than whether a prosecutor thinks they can get a conviction; that's all.
3. The rest of your argument would have been a better place to use the Chewbacca Defense, because you didn't provide anything that said anything or supported any conclusion and I'm not sure what you were addressing with it.


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I understand your take.

I am suspicious of settled cases. I have seen companies settle because they looked at the long picture and took the fast route out.
What took place and justice was thrown away.

How much makes you feel better?

The cases I can only speculate as to what really took place. I can say what I would have done if I was the woman in the room. But I am not the woman in the room. However, i know women if it was true what was alleged. They would have set DW real straight real fast.

Unfortunately I don't believe we will ever know what happened.

My hope is that those involved will be ok with what is decided.

If DW was the bad guy. He has the rest of his life with money and a platform to benefit many people.

I will follow the Browns. I will pay attention to what DW does going forward.

It maybe cold but when games are on I am there because it is entertaining to me and I want the Browns to win. Lots goes on around the world that I wish was different. I don't like any of this. I just want to watch the team play.

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1. No, that is NOT why they went the civil route. That was happening anyway regardless of the outcome of the criminal proceedings.

The Civil cases were filed before the criminal complaints and police reports were.

I have always been suspicious of those who choose to go to Civil Court first. If a crime was committed against me, I would seek justice by filing criminal charges rather than trying to seek money.

Last edited by Versatile Dog; 07/20/22 02:40 PM.
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In most cases, I agree. There are cases where your chances of a criminal prosecution are nearly zilch, but you actually still have a semi-decent chance of getting some semblance of justice via a civil case. Pretty much all of these are actually of that nature.

I would also suggest that the lawyer, whatever his name is, likely sought out as many of the women as he could to get as many viable cases going as he could, BUT, he's only interested in the civil cases and would have nearly no impact on whether criminal proceeding went forth, but he likely spurred the criminal filings to give basis to the civil filings. However, how those proceeded would be the domain of the prosecutor(s).

Are all of the cases valid? Not likely. Almost certainly not likely.
Are some of them valid? Fairly likely. Where there's smoke, there's fire, as the saying goes. Once the lawyer had a handful of credibles, he'd seek out as many marginally credible cases as he could in order to double-down. It worked, he got an early pay day from those, but what is left are the ones not settling, and those are likely the stronger, more credible cases (speculative on my part, I don't know which are which).

The point that this whole diatribe has been getting steered away from was me making the still valid point that a decision to not indict is meaningless in general, but more specifically for where we are at in this process. The outcome of the criminal stuff is nearly meaningless because all it means is that he isn't getting jail time.

All that matters is "did his conduct violate the NFL Personal Conduct Policy?". This is a Yes/No question, and I think pretty much everyone can agree that it is a Yes.

So, the ONLY question is whether or not the degree of violation is sufficient for a suspension.... and nobody knows because the NFL's history is nothing but a complete joke when you look at what might be considered precedent. They have been absolutely all over the place. All that remains is opinion, although that is turning into people actively lobbying for one result or another, as if anyone on here has any impact whatsoever, lol.

In the end, the league is going to do what they feel is best for the league. They may require a sacrificial lamb be slaughtered; they may feel they can float a story that lets them avoid anything overtly draconian. They will work with the NFLPA because they know the union will have to give its harrumphs, and the NFLPA will work with the league because they know this is how the bread gets baked, and they will all do their damndest to make sure they give every appearance that their new system works in a way that keeps people happy.



As always, for the NFL & the NFLPA, this is nothing more than publicly managing a PR problem. Despite the recent campaign in the media with articles to float the idea of leniency, or even outright clemency, I think a large portion of the public opinion has remained in the camp that requires a blood debt be paid, and in that vein, I think there will surely be a suspension, but I think it will be long enough to satiate the majority of the blood hungry while not being so long as to have people screaming that he's been martyred. I think the chances of a full season suspension are nil, and I feel the same way about any thoughts of there being no suspension or anything shorter than like four or five weeks. In the end, I think the NFL & NFLPA will work out something they can both live with and they will feed this to Robinson behind closed doors and lo & behold, she will come out with a recommendation that matches it and both the NFL and NFLPA will just nod sagely and choose to "respect her decision & recommendation".


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
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maybe if enough supporters that share my view voice their opinion maybe the NFL will listen.

I prefer that the legal system determines a man's guilt or innocence over mob mentality.

Yet the NFL personal conduct policy isn't a court of law and the players contractually agreed to this process. So much for your false narrative.

My experience of being a Labor Manager for a major corporation and dealing with union complaints on a monthly basis, I will stick by my previously posted opinion about the cases in front of Judge Robinson. The most critical point that must be "understood" is that Judge Robinson is not making a ruling on criminal guilt or innocence or civil suit guilt or innocence. Her ruling is only and purely related to the question of if Watson violated the NFL's/NFLPA's contractual agreement on the PCP. The GJ's ruling means nothing nor does it mean anything to her if he's criminally charged or not at this point.

I am also very certain but still just my opinion that when people say that there are only four cases that the Judge is looking at is a fallacy. From what I understand, everyone on the alleged victims said the same thing about Watson. That he went against protocol and demanded to bring with him and use a small towel no larger than a washcloth instead of the standard full sheet used during regular massages. The intentional use of this small towel allowed Watson to become exposed which obviously signals intent. While continuing to demand the masseuse to work higher while exposed, it enabled very little movement by Watson to cause touching. Each of the women gave depositions very similar in description of how Watson initiated the touching aspect either verbally or physically. Now the unnamed source (now being reported as an NFLPA Representative) stating that the NFL only brought 4 cases to the arbitrator and even then, found no evidence of violence, threats or physical conduct was released to sway public opinion. What he didn't say was the claim of these women was that they were being coerced or forced into seeing Watson exposed and ultimately unwanted touching which violates the PCP. Also, remember, the unnamed NFLPA source that has no bearing on the outcome of the case based on his opinion? Ultimately, there was no reason for Judge Robinson to hear 24 cases claiming the exact same things of intimidation, coercing, or being forced when it could be covered by a few by not being redundant yet none this less included.

Two of the other suits alleged sexual abuse by Watson and have not been settled. These are the most serious since Texas Law considers sexual abuse to pertain equally:
(A) any contact between any part of the genitals of one person and the mouth or anus of another person; or
(B) the penetration of the genitals or the anus of another person with an object.
(2) "Sexual contact" means, except as provided by Section 21.11 or 21.12, any touching of the anus, breast, or any part of the genitals of another person with intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person.
(3) "Sexual intercourse" means any penetration of the female sex organ by the male sex organ.

The fourth and final suit alleged Watson ejaculated on her without permission.

Those 4 allegations have not been settled and the reason why they were presented to Judge Robinson but IMHO, the first one encompassed all 24 so as to not be redundant while still encompassing the entire scope of 24 civil suits with now 2 new ones filed.

The focus on the 4 remaining and the 2 new ones gives pause to Judge Robinson by not knowing how many more cases are to be filed and/or the severity of the testimony should those cases make it to civil court. Remember, it's not Judge Robinson's duty to determine innocence or guilt but the impact of Watson's actions to the integrity of the game. If the cases keep coming (estimated that 4 more are on the way) the more fallout the league will receive if Watson is indeed playing after a light suspension. That IMHO is what is taking Judge Robinson so long to rule. This case is the worst case of allegations of sexual misconduct in the history of the NFL. Getting it wrong could have dire consequences on the league, team, and peers.

Again, Just My Opinion.


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Fair post. Not the usual attack post that are littering this thread. I agree w/a lot of what you said. I think perhaps we you and I disconnect is that you might believe that I don't think this is about the Personal Conduct policy. I do believe that. I sure as heck don't believe it is about Texas law like I read elsewhere on here. My contention is that precedence should matter when looking at violations of the Personal Conduct policy. Kessler, the NFLPA's esteemed attorney has made precedence a focal point of Watson's defense. He has named Snyder, Jones, and Kraft as examples of those who violated the particulars of the Personal Conduct policy.

I think most would be satisfied w/Sue Robinson's decision. She seems fair and is squeaky clean as far as i can tell. I think the NFLPA and others like myself would have a problem if Goodell or his appointed designee increases the length of the suspension. That is why we are hearing the threat of a class action suit against the NFL. Many are speculating that while the outrage of Watson getting off "easy" would indeed exist, it would pale in comparison to the long-term damage the class action suit would cause. The NFL could be dragged through the mud for years and forced to reveal things they would never want to. I don't envy the NFL's position right now. They are going to get ripped either way. It's just that the class action suit could bring much more heat on them.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
My contention is that precedence should matter when looking at violations of the Personal Conduct policy.

I think you think far too highly of the NFL and their practices. Never, ever, has fairness and procedures and orderly processes been a thing for them.
Literally, the most cynical view is the most realistic with them. They don't care about what players do, they care about public uproar over what players do. That's it.


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We certainly agree about that.

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jc...

Browns fans are left in limbo, waiting for the process to conclude...

Being a Browns fan is not easy..!




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Originally Posted by mac
jc...



Being a Browns fan is not easy..!

Keep that up and you're going to unseat daman as the captain obvious of Dawgtalkers.


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir

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He's gotta post something now that Florio has stopped his smear campaign.

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jfan...how is that knee replacement doing after your bout with cellulitis..?




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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
He's gotta post something now that Florio has stopped his smear campaign.

Oh, look at you, vers...just 45 minutes ago you used Florio as a source for the smear campaign.

How about that..!




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Agreed, Purp. Reading your post, and I am still scratching my head, coming to grips with what the NFL's sense of "protecting" the integrity of The Game means at this point in time. Can't be much less than it is. Discipline that doesn't, gambling, the Goodell "court" from the same subjective folks who still cannot tell you what pass interference isn't and what a catch is. Integrity of the NFL. Is that phrase, in practical practice, more hypocrisy or is it merely a severe oxymoron?

Talk among yourselves.

Go, Browns anyhow. For The Land!


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j/c:



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Seems like a lot of money to lose.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
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NeverForgetâ„¢

All gave some, some gave 1% of all.


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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Seems like a lot of money to lose.

I read that tweet as if it was dripping with sarcasm (maybe sarcasm isn't the right word).


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Bone I sure wish the kid would get professional help to get him comfortable to see he made some bad moves and even though he isn't saying he was wrong to at least get some help so that mentally he understands that it was wrong and he will not continue to commit the same error over again. That is ONE OF MY PROBLEMS is his refusal to get help. Its not about forgiving or understanding we all have made mistakes. In his case he cannot duplicate that mistake or else I'm afraid he will be gone as in FOREVER!!!

jmho and fear.


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CHRIST HAS RISEN!

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j/c:

Did anyone happen to listen to the Florio interview this morning on 92.3 The Fan? I'm seeing a couple of things on twitter referencing a portion of the interview where Florio's source alleged the NFL tried to include a newspaper article as evidence for one of the five cases and Robinson dismissed it as evidence. I don't see the interview on the site yet so wanted to see if this was, in fact, brought up?


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I can only give an opinion.

So, what I state is nothing more than a guess.

DW was by all accounts a good guy before any of these allegations were know. That is where I start. We all know there are truly bad people in this world. I doubt that he is one of them.

He may have gotten more than a massage early on. Most likely it was consensual. He may have known others who got serviced at massage places. Maybe he thought you set up a massage and some ended happy. Over time some went that way and others didn't. He got off on the ones that did and kept looking for more. Eventually it led to where this is. I doubt his intent was to harm anyone.

Now after all that has transpired. Anything even close to being perceived as wrong. He will not want any part of it. I can not say how many cases are valid or are not.

Once this is settled whatever is decided. IMO you will see a guy who will do everything he can to rebuild his reputation. He will be involved in all kinds of community outreach programs. Part of that will be driven and or assisted by the Haslams and the Browns. He is a long term investment.


In my opinion DW will never be involved in anything off the field other than good things. Things that will be visible to the public as helpfull to others.

I am optomistic because it makes sense to me and nothing before any of this leads me to believe that he is by nature a bad person.

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Originally Posted by mac
jfan...how is that knee replacement doing after your bout with cellulitis..?

Very well, thank you. Going thru the grind of PT, stretching and strength training. It's painful and sucks, but the physical therapist said my progress is "remarkable".


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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What about the Cleveland Browns workplace? Their employees?

Do they have any female trainers on staff? If so, did they take into consideration that it might make them extremely uncomfortable treating Deshaun Watson? I know they are probably a $65,000 a year bottom feeder, but we are going back to the Washington Commanders workplace environment here. Why are the top paid players, the only employees that matter, other than they make you the most money? Well, the trainers play an integral part of an athlete being able to perform at a high level....Just another opinion.

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j/c:

Browns working out QBs A.J. McCarron and Josh Rosen today to backup Jacoby Brissett

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...sen-today-to-backup-jacoby-brissett.html

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Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by mac
jfan...how is that knee replacement doing after your bout with cellulitis..?

Very well, thank you. Going thru the grind of PT, stretching and strength training. It's painful and sucks, but the physical therapist said my progress is "remarkable".

thumbsup great news and keep grinding !




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Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
j/c:

Did anyone happen to listen to the Florio interview this morning on 92.3 The Fan? I'm seeing a couple of things on twitter referencing a portion of the interview where Florio's source alleged the NFL tried to include a newspaper article as evidence for one of the five cases and Robinson dismissed it as evidence. I don't see the interview on the site yet so wanted to see if this was, in fact, brought up?



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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
He's gotta post something now that Florio has stopped his smear campaign.

Now you have stopped smearing Florio because now you like what he's saying.


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That was a pretty good interview. LMAO at the NFL trying to use a newspaper article as evidence. I'm also glad we are clearing up this misconception that some have about Robinson considering 24 or 30 or 66 women. It's four.

I posted his video earlier because he had points that were both good and bad for Watson and the NFL. it's balanced than saying Watson doesn't deserve any time or Watson needs to be suspended indefinitely. The radio interview was more of the same.

I still don't know what Robinson will decide, but I have a better feeling about this than I did early on. Personally, I don't think he should be suspended at all given the way the NFL has handled the owners and even the Security guy w/the Texans. However, I understand that Judge Robinson will probably suspend him. I'm hoping for 2-4 games, but that is just wishful thinking. I don't think it will be above 6, but I could be wrong about that, too.

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I think we may hear something Friday around noon.

Maybe that is wishful thinking on my part.

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j/c:



Tackles are tackles.
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Florio suggested that might be the case. It's the NFL way. LOL

And I still can't believe they tried to use a newspaper article as evidence. Their case seems really weak.

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It's not even close to the same cost and you know it. All an NFL contract is worth is the guaranteed portion.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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What it is referring to is the avg cost per year.


Tackles are tackles.
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