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Legend
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Read the posts Vers, if you're going to state that "I am still digging my way through it (long article) but what I have read so far pales in comparison to what roethlisberger was accused of doing." Then you are stating as to what he did to violate the PCP. If you're going to hang your hat on the alleged rape allegation against Ben, then it stands to reason that Watson's alleged violations need to be considered also. The NFL only addressed one such instance against Ben while we know that 3 women have accused Watson of forced nonconsensual oral sex which carry's the same weight as rape in the state of Texas. Then you need to add in all the other alleged sexual misconducts and there's a hell of a lot of difference between the two cases. Watson is a serial predator and no matter how many excuses you make up for him the NFL investigation proved that and the violation of 3 PCP standards according to Judge Robinson. That cannot be disputed according to the CBA. You spin so much that you get confused to who you are even replying to.
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Legend
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[quote=Jester]
Let me get this straight, Ben was officially suspended by Commissioner Roger Goodell who handed down the punishment of a six-game suspension a week after prosecutors decided not to charge Roethlisberger in a case involving a 20-year-old college student who accused him of sexually assaulting her in a Georgia nightclub in March. Roethlisberger also was ordered to undergo a comprehensive behavioral evaluation. Goodell will look at Roethlisberger's progress before the season and might consider reducing the suspension to four games. Steeler's fans are pissed that Ben got so much for so little and Watson gets the same for so much more. Folks will call out posters for saying that we can have a franchise qb for the next decade, but they this fairy tale go untouched. This statement is incorrect on at least two levels. Rape allegations result in being "so little?" Really? And the Steeler fans I know aren't saying that. Then again, Steeler fans were not championing for one of their players to be punished more severely like some of our so-called Browns fans.
Last edited by Versatile Dog; 08/06/22 05:52 AM.
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Legend
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j/c: Mary Kay gets a lot of grief on here, but her articles seem to be more fair than many others. This is a well-balanced article that isn't pro-or anti-Watson. A lot of good information. NFL Players Association files reply to NFL’s appeal of Deshaun Watson’s six-game suspension; also poised to sue in federal courtUpdated: Aug. 05, 2022, 9:33 p.m.|Published: Aug. 05, 2022, 4:48 p.m. By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com BEREA, Ohio -- The NFL Players Association announced Friday that it replied to the NFL’s appeal of Deshaun Watson’s six-game suspension by NFL Disciplinary Officer Sue L. Robinson for violating the NFL’s personal conduct policy. “We have filed our reply brief to the NFL’s appeal regarding the Deshaun Watson matter,’’ the NFLPA said in a statement posted on Twitter. The union, which had two business days to reply, had no further comment. The matter is now in the hands of appeals officer Peter C. Harvey, the former New Jersey Attorney General who was appointed Thursday by NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell. There’s no set timeframe for a decision, but it must be processed on an expedited basis. The two sides — the NFL and NFLPA — can also try to negotiate a settlement before the ruling. But the NFLPA is still poised to sue in federal court, possibly pending the outcome of the appeal. “If the new arbitrator increases Watson’s punishment – once again this sets up a legal battle between the union and league challenging the fairness of the penalties and (Roger) Goodell’s authority to penalize the players for their alleged roles,’’ said attorney Daniel Moskowitz, a sports law litigator in Dallas, who has represented several NFL players in NFL investigations involving the personal conduct policy, violation of league substance abuse and other code of conduct policies. The NFLPA and Watson’s legal team can also file before the decision by Harvey, who helped develop and implement the NFL’s Personal Conduct Policy. In 2017, Cowboys running back Ezekiel Elliott didn’t wait for appeals officer Harold Henderson to rule on his domestic violence case before filing suit in U.S. District Court. “The district court, having found it could intervene due to a lack of fundamental fairness throughout the process, ruled for Elliot, and granted his request for a temporary restraining order (TRO) enjoining the player’s suspension from taking effect,’’ Moskowitz said. Elliott’s six-game suspension was ultimately reinstated, but he played the first seven games of the 2017 season before serving it. Tom Brady also sued in federal court to have his four-game Deflategate suspension overturned, and the ruling went in his favor. He played the entire 2015 season before the NFL won its appeal and the suspension was reinstated. He sat out the first four games of 2016. The NFLPA, which fought for no suspension at all for Watson, will likely argue that Sue L. Robinson was unable to find a definition of sexual assault in the Collective Bargaining Agreement or the Personal Conduct Policy. Short of that, one of the NFL investigators, on behalf of the league, defined it during the three-day hearing in June as “unwanted sexual contact with another person.’’ Based on that definition, Robinson found that the NFL carried its burden to prove beyond a preponderance of the evidence that Watson engaged in sexual assault against the four massage therapists identified in the report. But Watson’s team has maintained all along that he didn’t use force or coercion, and therefore, didn’t engage in sexual assault. They abided by the six-game suspension, but will likely fight hard against a significantly longer ban absent violent sexual misconduct. The NFL, which has argued from the start for an minimum season-long suspension with the opportunity to apply for reinstatement, is once again seeking the full year, along with an “appropriate fine” and treatment for what it has deemed a disturbing pattern of sexual misconduct. Indeed, Robinson described his behavior in her 16-page report as “predatory” and “egregious.” The NFLPA, led by attorney Jeffrey Kessler, might also look to the precedent set in 2015 in the domestic violence case against former Cowboys defensive end Greg Hardy. In that case, Henderson reduced Hardy’s suspension from 10 games to four on the grounds that it far exceeded any precedents in the league. “I find that the conduct of Hardy clearly violates the letter and spirit of any version of the (personal conduct policy) since its inception, and of the NFL Constitution and Bylaws long before then. The egregious conduct exhibited here is indefensible in the NFL,” Henderson said in a statement announcing his decision. “However, ten games is simply too much, in my view, of an increase over prior cases without notice such as was done last year, when the ‘baseline’ for discipline in domestic violence or sexual assault cases was announced as a six-game suspension.” Robinson wrote something similar in her explanation of the six-game suspension despite finding Watson violated three areas of the policy. “While it may be entirely appropriate to more severely discipline players for non-violent sexual conduct, I do not believe it is appropriate to do so without notice of the extraordinary change this position portends for the NFL and its players,’’ she wrote. The two sides can also reopen settlement talks, but negotiations up until shortly before Robinson’s ruling on Monday proved fruitless. According to ESPN’s Dan Graziano, the NFLPA was willing to concede 6-8 games, but the NFL wasn’t willing to budge on anything less than 12 games and an $8 million fine. The NFL is adamant that Watson should forfeit more than the $57,500 per game he’ll owe based on his $1.035 million base salary for the 2022 season. The Browns lowered the base and gave him a $45 million signing bonus to clear cap space for the season. It’s part of his fully-guaranteed five-year, $230 million contract extension after the Browns traded for him in March, sending a net of five draft picks to the Texans, including three first-rounders. Goodell designated Harvey for numerous reasons, not the least of which is the fact that Goodell isn’t in position to process the appeal quickly. He’s currently attending the Pro Football Hall of Fame festivities in Canton, and will then head to Minnesota next week for an important league meeting on Tuesday in which the sale of the Denver Broncos will take center stage. Harvey, a former federal prosecutor and now a partner at the Paterson Belknap firm in New York, is uniquely qualified for numerous reasons, including the fact that he’s one of the foremost authorities in the country on sexual assault cases. He serves on the Board of Directors of Futures Without Violence, focusing on domestic violence, sexual assault and childhood trauma policy issues. As the New Jersey Attorney General, his initiatives included refining and strengthened a ground-breaking Sexual Assault Response Team/Sexual Assault Nurse Examiners (SART/SANE) program to assist sexual assault victims in coming forward without fear of being victimized again by the justice system that is meant to help them. He’s also served as the commissioner’s designee in other arbitrations, and was one of four consultants on the Elliott’s domestic violence case. Harvey “may overturn, reduce, modify or increase the discipline previously issued” and his word will be final -- unless the Watson sues, which appears likely. https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...deshaun-watsons-six-game-suspension.html
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All Pro
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Forced oral sex. I have always found that sketchy. All a person has to do is say "Bring it on, big boy" then snap the teeth 2-3 times. I think that would put an end to that.
I am not making light of anything, but some things are believable, and some things aren't.
JMO , maybe you're big and strong enough to handle yourself in most situations in life. That's why it's hard for you to understand/accept ( its not personal against you but this view is a general misunderstanding among many men) why these women continue with the sexual act if they found it unpleasant. Here in Scandinavia they have done a lot of research about this phenomenon why some women (and men) "freeze" and continue do unpleasant things against there will. You have probably read about how our reptile brain works but the report basically says that when we feel we're in danger we revert to three types of reactions. FIGHT! FREEZE! ESCAPE! None of us know the state of mind of these women when these sexual acts happened. Maybe from Watson's perspective it was just a "proposal" but from theses women's perspective they received it as some sort of threat, rightfully or not this was probably their understanding at the time it happend. You and I can question why they panic, freeze, instead of talked to Watson and explained why they felt uncomforted. Totally reasonable question but as the report said when a person feel threatened many of us revert to reptile behavior and when this happen normal reactions flies out of the window. That's why I'm saying if it happens to a man once in his life, I will give anyone accused of this the benefit of doubt, but if several women, in this case 24 different individuals tells similar stories then maybe its time for Watson to self reflect and accept some sort of guilt. My theory is that Watson, who was treated as a elite talent in college, later a NFL QB , the local teams biggest star, wasn't probably used to be denied any of his wishes. That's why he eventually become tone death and didn't recognize when someone showed negative signs and just continue without understanding the seriousness in his actions.
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PortlandDawg |
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Dawg Talker
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That's why talking about all this gets so crazy. You're entitled to your personal feelings on the subject, no question.
My point is that if you're going to sit in judgement of someone (like the NFL on the PCP), the application of the alleged crime becomes vitally important.
Your opinion or my opinion has no basis in what the league is looking at when determining the PCP violation.
Ben has been investigated by the NFL for only one occurrence for violations of the PCP. He was not legally charged nor was he convicted of the crime.
However, the PCP within the CBA states:
"But even if the conduct does not result in a criminal conviction, players found to have engaged in any of the following conduct will be subject to discipline. Prohibited conduct includes but is not
limited to the following:” (1) “Actual or threatened physical violence against another person;” (2) “Assault and/or battery, including sexual assault;” (3) “Violent or threatening behavior
toward another employee or a third party in any workplace setting;” (4) “Stalking, harassment, or similar forms of intimidation;” (5) “Illegal possession of a gun or other weapon;” (6) “Illegal
possession, use, or distribution of alcohol or drugs;” (7) “Possession, use, or distribution of steroids or other performance enhancing substances;” (8) “Crimes involving cruelty to animals as
defined by state or federal law;” (9) “Crimes of dishonesty such as blackmail, extortion, fraud, money laundering, or racketeering;” (10) “Theft related crimes;” (11) “Disorderly conduct;” (12)
“Crimes against law enforcement;” (13) “Conduct that poses a genuine danger to the safety and well-being of another person;” and (14) “Conduct that undermines or puts at risk the integrity of
the NFL.”
"None of these examples of prohibited conduct is explained or defined by the NFL in the Policy or the CBA. For those involving crimes defined by state or federal law, of course,
there is no need to. For the remainder, the NFL is left to provide its own definition of the conduct."
Remember, the NFLPA negotiated and agreed to this language within the new CBA.
The last paragraph becomes important when considering the severity of the prohibited conduct. No one would question that the alleged claim of nonconsensual intercourse by Ben is sexual assault and violates that portion (2) of the PCP, but it becomes clearer because the alleged crime of nonconsensual intercourse is defined as alleged sexual assault within the state of GA law and doesn't need to be defined.
Likewise, Watson also was not legally charged nor was he convicted of a crime. The difference is that Watson has been alleged to have had nonconsensual oral sex with 3 women. Referring back to the last paragraph of the PCP, the crime of forced oral sex is defined as sexual assault (the equal of rape in Texas) within the state of Texas law and doesn't need defined. Applying that same thought process in equal fairness to Watson as was done with Ben, Watson's actions consist of 3 separate individual cases of alleged sexual assault and violates that portion (2) of the PCP when applied equally.
We can split hairs as to our own opinion as to if one is more severe than the other but it's only that - our personal opinion.
However, when comparing the cases on an equal footing based on the alleged crimes defined clearly by state or federal law:
Ben was investigated by the NFL for a PCP violation as he was alleged to have committed one (1) single offense of sexual assault (nonconsensual forced intercourse) in the state of GA. Watson was investigated by the NFL for a PCP violation as he was alleged to have committed three (3) separate offenses of sexual assault (nonconsensual forced oral sex) in the state of Texas where nonconsensual intercourse and nonconsensual oral sex fall under the same law classification of sexual assault.
My point continues to be that if Ben is a scumbag that got a light penalty for his single (1) alleged sexual assault as defined by the PCP and deserved a much harsher penalty, then what should Watson be penalized for with three (3) separate equally scumbag alleged sexual assaults as defined by the PCP?
If you're a fair-minded person setting aside your Cleveland Browns loyalty and looking to apply the penalty equally based on violations of the PCP, Watson should be suspended for minimum of 18 games (6 for each occurrence of alleged sexual assault) with the opportunity to reduce it to 12 if like Roethlisberger, Watson is ordered to undergo a successful comprehensive behavioral evaluation. Goodell then will look at Watson's progress (like Ben) before reinstatement eligibility and might consider reducing the suspension to four games for each occurrence or 12 games total.
However, a failure to comply with the NFL's ruling might lead to a longer suspension.
Unfortunately, this does not address the other 20 settled civil suits for alleged sexual misconduct and sexual harassment, the 30 settled civil suits that the Texans settled related to Watson's egregious behavior, the one unsettled civil suit, and the possibility of the withdrawn civil suit that could be refiled. Of course, these are all extra PCP violations that Ben did not have that must be considered for additional punishment.
Like I've been saying, if you took all the misconduct complaints against women by NFL players for the last decade you still would not have as many alleged sexual misconduct complaints as is being levied against Watson.
Just "KICKING THAT CAN DOWN the ROAD"
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Legend
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Legend
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xx xxx xxx I have always found that sketchy. All a person has to do is say "Bring it on, big boy" then snap the teeth 2-3 times. I think that would put an end to that.
I am not making light of anything, but some things are believable, and some things aren't.
JMO That is your most objectionable post ever.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Legend
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Legend
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Forced oral sex. I have always found that sketchy. All a person has to do is say "Bring it on, big boy" then snap the teeth 2-3 times. I think that would put an end to that.
I am not making light of anything, but some things are believable, and some things aren't.
JMO What's wrong with this post y'all? You need to just let Peen be, this was how it was in the 30s-40s-50s deep south, so he thinks this should fly today too. Getting old is hell, let me tell ya.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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Legend
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Legend
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Does anyone think that this is the way the Browns saw this whole Watson thing going? So much for research!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I never said that I didn't think DW violated the PCP because I do.
I am not saying that he shouldn't be punished because he should.
My issue is with the sentiment that this is by far the worst sexual violation of the PCP we have ever seen.
I think what DW did was bad. I also think what ben did was worse.
I didn't comment on ben's punishment, but that was a travesty. And then they cut the suspension down. WTF?!
Ben should have been suspended indefinitely minimum a full season.
I also have no doubt that there was a major cover-up but that is a different conversation.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Hall of Famer
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Forced oral sex. I have always found that sketchy. All a person has to do is say "Bring it on, big boy" then snap the teeth 2-3 times. I think that would put an end to that.
I am not making light of anything, but some things are believable, and some things aren't.
JMO What's wrong with this post y'all? You need to just let Peen be, this was how it was in the 30s-40s-50s deep south, so he thinks this should fly today too. Getting old is hell, let me tell ya. If I had a daughter I would have a conversation with her about safety. Numerous things but one being forced oral sex. I would tell her to bite down and not just an uncomfortable bite but to bite that f'n thing off. Having said that, if you don't prepare for a situation (heck, even if you do prepare) you get that adrenaline rush and have trouble thinking clearly.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Hall of Famer
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jc…
I have a female friend that was put in a situation she wanted no part of. It lead to ‘forced oral sex’. She was going to be ‘date raped’ by a creep that thought she owed him since he paid for dinner. She chose the oral path out. It wasn’t what she wanted to do but she saw it as a lesser evil than having him climb on her and do his will.
Forced oral isn’t always about someone pushing your head down onto their lap.
As to the bite down thing. He outweighed her by 80 pounds. Do you really think women want to take a chance of escalating these types of encounters to a level that can see them getting beaten on on top of being raped? It’s just not where your mind goes in these types of encounters. It’s self preservation.
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Legend
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Legend
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Question - at this point, knowing the NFL is appealing and putting aside if that is right or wrong, what do people think the final suspension will be?
I'm going to say 12 games and a $10M fine and language for Watson to attend behavioral classes. It wouldn't surprise me if there isn't that big of a game addition, while imposing a financial penalty that will be donated to women's causes.... that's the sort of optics the NFL wants imo.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Legend
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Legend
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I understand what you are saying, but you are also assigning guilt to a person when you do not have proof of his guilt. OCD mentioned peen being like dudes in the old south, but not allowing the legal system to rule on criminal cases goes farther back than that. Back to the Salem witch trials. And even further than that......back to the Medieval times and beyond.
Look, I have NO PROBLEM if some of you are so disgusted that you can't root for Watson and/or the Browns. It's a free choice. However, the rest of us should be permitted to make our own choice and not receive the constant shaming because we believe in the laws of the land and don't want to be part of the mob. This is a Cleveland Browns message board for fans of the team. It's not a social activist board where we compete to see who is the most "woke."
Edit to add that I am not trying to convince others of my opinion on how one interprets innocence and guilt. Frankly, I don't care what many of you think. Just tired of all the guilt trip and shaming posting. Believe what you will and let others believe what they will.
Last edited by Versatile Dog; 08/06/22 09:40 AM.
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Legend
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I understand what you are saying, but you are also assigning guilt to a person when you do not have proof of his guilt. OCD mentioned peen being like dudes in the old south, but not allowing the legal system to rule on criminal cases goes farther back than that. Back to the Salem witch trials. And even further than that......back to the Medieval times and beyond.
Look, I have NO PROBLEM if some of you are so disgusted that you can't root for Watson and/or the Browns. It's a free choice. However, the rest of us should be permitted to make our own choice and not receive the constant shaming because we believe in the laws of the land and don't want to be part of the mob. This is a Cleveland Browns message board for fans of the team. It's not a social activist board where we compete to see who is the most "woke." Pretty 100% certain you were going to accept Sue Robinson's findings .... and she found Watson guilty of egregious acts of sexual misconduct while acting like a predator, lying and showing no remorse for his actions. But then there's so much hypocrisy that you post that I guess no-one should be surprised you haven't lived by what you wanted others to do (and said you would do).
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Hall of Famer
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Question - at this point, knowing the NFL is appealing and putting aside if that is right or wrong, what do people think the final suspension will be?
I'm going to say 12 games and a $10M fine and language for Watson to attend behavioral classes. It wouldn't surprise me if there isn't that big of a game addition, while imposing a financial penalty that will be donated to women's causes.... that's the sort of optics the NFL wants imo. I think that is the bare minimum. The NFL doesn't want watson playing game 1 and it sounds like they don't want him playing week 12 vs houston. I think he also gets fined to make up for the structure of his contract.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Legend
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Legend
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I don't believe the "report" - speculation that the NFL didn't want Watson playing against HOU. I think they had a minimum number of games - and that happened to coincide with the HOU game ... I can't think of a single solid reason that is logical for the NFL taking a position against him playing for his former team. That came from a report by one of the NFL correspondence, I haven't seen it anywhere else other than other reporters commenting on his tweet or whatever it was.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Dawg Talker
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Does anyone think that this is the way the Browns saw this whole Watson thing going? So much for research! For the Browns, it could only be one of two ways. Either they knew the extent Watson's alleged sexual abuse/misconduct/harassment and decided to look the other way in the hope that the NFL would go light on Watson, or they had no idea of the extent of his predatory actions and egregious behavior and Watson was lying to them all along just as he has continued to lie up to and including to Judge Robinson as per her ruling. If you believe the Browns knew this entire time and their continued statements of a complete investigation revealed what has been determined, then it's clear they have no respect for the alleged women victims and have placed winning over known sexual abuse/misconduct concerning women. If the Browns had no idea as to the extent of Watson's predatory actions and egregious behavior, then someone is continuing to spread the lie that the Browns did a complete investigation. Furthermore, Watson then has been lying to the team from the get-go and certainly would be grounds for voiding his guaranteed contract. IMHO, I can believe the Browns got buffaloed by Watson and did a shoddy investigation into the alleged sexual abuse/misconduct/harassment. For that, someone has to take responsibility for missing the whole damn boat on Watson. If it's that they knew this entire time and continue to show unwavering support for him as they are currently doing, then ultimately the question will be posed to the team for an explanation of their total disregard for women who suffer sexual abuse/misconduct/and harassment.
Just "KICKING THAT CAN DOWN the ROAD"
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Floquinho |
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Legend
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Legend
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Question - at this point, knowing the NFL is appealing and putting aside if that is right or wrong, what do people think the final suspension will be?
I'm going to say 12 games and a $10M fine and language for Watson to attend behavioral classes. It wouldn't surprise me if there isn't that big of a game addition, while imposing a financial penalty that will be donated to women's causes.... that's the sort of optics the NFL wants imo. I think that is the bare minimum. The NFL doesn't want watson playing game 1 and it sounds like they don't want him playing week 12 vs houston. I think he also gets fined to make up for the structure of his contract. I think---just guessing--that he will get at least 12 games and perhaps a year. I think the fine will be large and they will probably add in counseling. What kills me is that almost everyone said they would be good w/Judge Robinson's decision. She decided on 6 games. But now, that isn't enough. Pffftttttt..... I thought Watson deserved less than 6 games, but I accepted her decision. But, those who love to play God are not satisfied and want more punishment. Justice should come through the legal system rather than vigilante style. Judge Robinson oversaw a case that was about whether or not Watson violated the terms of the Personal Conduct Policy. She was not rendering a legal decision. The crap that went on w/that hearing would not walk in a court of law. And I wish peen or 05 would expand on that. For example, how can you allow the testimony of a witness to stand w/out cross examination? There was no video evidence. No tangible evidence. No medical reports that suggested abuse. No eye witnesses. Just the unchallenged word of the 5 participants [4 accusers and Watson.]
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Legend
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Legend
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Question - at this point, knowing the NFL is appealing and putting aside if that is right or wrong, what do people think the final suspension will be?
I'm going to say 12 games and a $10M fine and language for Watson to attend behavioral classes. It wouldn't surprise me if there isn't that big of a game addition, while imposing a financial penalty that will be donated to women's causes.... that's the sort of optics the NFL wants imo. Extended game suspensions punish a lot more people than the player involved. Hit him where it hurts.....the wallet. Give him a humongous, unprecedented fine and be done with it.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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Legend
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Forced oral sex. I have always found that sketchy. All a person has to do is say "Bring it on, big boy" then snap the teeth 2-3 times. I think that would put an end to that.
I am not making light of anything, but some things are believable, and some things aren't.
JMO Maybe you think that way ...... but you're not a 100# woman faced with a 6'3", 230# athlete. Yes, I know some women who are strong enough that I would pity any man who trried to rape or abuse them, because they would be likely to, as the saying goes, show them the other end. That is not every woman though. Women faced with a rapist will often shut down and just try to get through it without being harmed. Throughout my years, I have known a couple of woman who have been raped. They can lack a sense of self worth inside. That does not make it right for them to be raped. I am surprised that you, as a judge, never saw, or heard of, relationships that turn violent, abusive, and cruel. Why do women (or even men) remain in such relationships. Is it their fault that they were abused? Of course not. I hope we could agree on that. I am not going to go into this further, but I just ask you to remember that not everyone has the same inner strength as everyone else might. .
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Watson is not being accused of rape. It was also found there was no physical force.
This is the kind of crap when the mob makes decisions. The story gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
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Question - at this point, knowing the NFL is appealing and putting aside if that is right or wrong, what do people think the final suspension will be?
I'm going to say 12 games and a $10M fine and language for Watson to attend behavioral classes. It wouldn't surprise me if there isn't that big of a game addition, while imposing a financial penalty that will be donated to women's causes.... that's the sort of optics the NFL wants imo. I think that is the bare minimum. The NFL doesn't want watson playing game 1 and it sounds like they don't want him playing week 12 vs houston. I think he also gets fined to make up for the structure of his contract. I think---just guessing--that he will get at least 12 games and perhaps a year. I think the fine will be large and they will probably add in counseling. What kills me is that almost everyone said they would be good w/Judge Robinson's decision. She decided on 6 games. But now, that isn't enough. Pffftttttt..... I thought Watson deserved less than 6 games, but I accepted her decision. But, those who love to play God are not satisfied and want more punishment. Justice should come through the legal system rather than vigilante style. Judge Robinson oversaw a case that was about whether or not Watson violated the terms of the Personal Conduct Policy. She was not rendering a legal decision. The crap that went on w/that hearing would not walk in a court of law. And I wish peen or 05 would expand on that. For example, how can you allow the testimony of a witness to stand w/out cross examination? There was no video evidence. No tangible evidence. No medical reports that suggested abuse. No eye witnesses. Just the unchallenged word of the 5 participants [4 accusers and Watson.] Just so we are clear - I'm ok with the 6 game suspension. That's as much as the framework allowed. As for Watson's guilt or innocence and you NOT accepting Sue Robinson's findings - she found him guilty. She called him a predator (acting like a predator while committing sexual misconduct/abuse/assault makes you a predator), she called him a liar, and guilty of sexual assault/misconduct/abuse .... It is not debatable. It is in black and white. Sue Robinson was smart and thorough - when her findings were limited only by the terms and legalize of the NFL framework she spelled that out in detail .... what she did not do is spell out that Watson was only guilty of these offenses based on the NFL framework and contract, she didn't highlight his actions being viewed differently under an NFL lens and what is acceptable to society/civil or criminal court. . . That's just a VERS thing to justify your continued enabling and support for a serial sexual predator. No ifs ands or buts about that.
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Watson is not being accused of rape. It was also found there was no physical force.
This is the kind of crap when the mob makes decisions. The story gets bigger and bigger and bigger. I was responding to a specific statement, in a specific post. I would also add that sometimes there is other pressure applied that while not physical, can be just as forceful. A man bursts through the door of a business. He is a huge, massively strong looking man. He tells the clerk that is he doesn't give him all the money, he will twist his head off of his shoulders. Is this wrong, even if no physical violence takes place? A business executive tells a woman working for him that he will ruin her professionally if she doesn't give him what he wants. Is that wrong, even if no physical pressure is brought to bear upon her? We don't kow what happened, and when there are so many cases that are settled out of court, I do have my suspisions ...... but that doesn't always mean that when the woman, or women, have said, is untrue.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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It was also found there was no physical force. I don't believe that to be true. Sue Robinson used the term "non-violent" - I don't believe she addressed force or coercion. And based on the definitions of what Watson was found guilty of I believe force is inherently implied. Maybe someone can confirm ? Either way sexual assault is sexual assault whether non-violent or otherwise.
Last edited by mgh888; 08/06/22 10:26 AM.
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Watson is not being accused of rape. It was also found there was no physical force.
This is the kind of crap when the mob makes decisions. The story gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Judge Robinson Deemed Watson's Behavior "Predatory" And "Egregious"
This case begins with the judge's comment above...
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J/c
It seems like we’ll have the new judge’s ruling at the early part of next week.
I for one am hoping for a settlement and to just end this charade
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Has the Bible ever addressed whether or not we should judge others? I thought you were a believer?
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Watson is not being accused of rape. It was also found there was no physical force.
This is the kind of crap when the mob makes decisions. The story gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Judge Robinson Deemed Watson's Behavior "Predatory" And "Egregious"
This case begins with the judge's comment above...Do you have some kind of point?
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Forced oral sex. I have always found that sketchy. All a person has to do is say "Bring it on, big boy" then snap the teeth 2-3 times. I think that would put an end to that.
I am not making light of anything, but some things are believable, and some things aren't.
JMO , maybe you're big and strong enough to handle yourself in most situations in life. That's why it's hard for you to understand/accept ( its not personal against you but this view is a general misunderstanding among many men) why these women continue with the sexual act if they found it unpleasant. Here in Scandinavia they have done a lot of research about this phenomenon why some women (and men) "freeze" and continue do unpleasant things against there will. You have probably read about how our reptile brain works but the report basically says that when we feel we're in danger we revert to three types of reactions. FIGHT! FREEZE! ESCAPE! None of us know the state of mind of these women when these sexual acts happened. Maybe from Watson's perspective it was just a "proposal" but from theses women's perspective they received it as some sort of threat, rightfully or not this was probably their understanding at the time it happend. You and I can question why they panic, freeze, instead of talked to Watson and explained why they felt uncomforted. Totally reasonable question but as the report said when a person feel threatened many of us revert to reptile behavior and when this happen normal reactions flies out of the window. That's why I'm saying if it happens to a man once in his life, I will give anyone accused of this the benefit of doubt, but if several women, in this case 24 different individuals tells similar stories then maybe its time for Watson to self reflect and accept some sort of guilt. My theory is that Watson, who was treated as a elite talent in college, later a NFL QB , the local teams biggest star, wasn't probably used to be denied any of his wishes. That's why he eventually become tone death and didn't recognize when someone showed negative signs and just continue without understanding the seriousness in his actions. No doubt I look at it from my perspective. I also look at it from my perspective that I wouldn't want to stick it towards snapping teeth. Let's stop acting like women are helpless creatures. Also, nothing suggests that Watson was violent or implied violence. Anything that happened didn't happen in some dark back alleyway. It was in an upscale hotel(s) from everything I gather. If Watson used force to get his way with the women, you can bet I would be all over that, but nobody claimed that. Sorry, I just don't think that women are spineless jellyfish. And for the record I am not so much defending Watson. No doubt he did something and was guilty of lewd behavior. He deserves some suspension and fine. I just don't think it extends to the reaches some think it should. The way some of you act it's like watching an old Boris Karloff Frankenstein movie where the villagers are in a frenzy, running through town with torches and farm tools in hand in search of the monster.
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I think the problem with trying to say that Watson forced oral sex on some of these women is that the NFL - the organization that investigated this situation for over a year and is actively trying to get Watson suspended for as long as they can - did not offer any evidence of this happening at the arbitration hearing, along with no evidence of any force or coercion. Hence, why Judge Robinson stated that it was "undisputed" that Watson's actions did not meet the threshold for a mandatory 6-game suspension for violent sexual assault. Based on this, you can infer how you want the veracity of these claims, but it seems like you are trying to dispute something that was "undisputed" during the hearing.
I think everyone needs to be clear exactly what Watson was found "most likely guilty" of by Sue: Watson used his status as an NFL QB to reach out to over 60 girls on Instagram to try to set-up situations that would lead to sex under the guise of needing a massage. During some of those messages (that he hoped would lead to sex), he developed erections and touched the women on the hand/arm with it.
Like I said before, this is awful behavior, and I would also call it "predatory," and I also think he needs suspended with a fine. However, I don't think this is as egregious a violent sexual assault, or even violent domestic assault, no matter how "predatory" (aka creepy) it was. However, everyone is free to place this non-violent sexual assault above violent sexual assault in terms of severity if they want - I just think that doesn't makes a whole lot of sense. That is basically what Judge Robinson pointed to in her decision to only suspend for 6 games - it's ok for the NFL to suspend longer for non-violent sexual assault if they want, but it is unfair to change that precedent (suspending longer for non-violent sexual assault than violent sexual assault) after-the-fact.
The other thing I don't understand is everyone making a big deal that he lied and showed no remorse...you do realize when the hearing was going on, he still had 4 active civil cases going on? I'm sure that it would not be very beneficial for his wallet if he admitted that he was remorseful for what he did, and Buzbee subpoenaed those records. Like really, what do you expect?
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When I become skeptical is when numerous other victims start coming out of the woodwork … and then when some of them are deemed “not credible” it’s difficult to know what to beleive
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Do you have some kind of point Judge Robinson Deemed Watson's Behavior "Predatory" And "Egregious
The judge's finding is kind of hard to defend, isn't it..?
The truth of the matter is, Judge Robinson might have saved Watson's career by cutting to the chase...Deshaun Watson had and may still have some very serious personal issues that he needs to address.
As far as the NFL is concerned, did Watson's "Egregious and Predatory behavior" tarnish the NFL shield and the NFL's personal conduct policy..?
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Personally, I don't believe in indefinite suspension. Pick a duration and stick with it. Put requirements on it, but put an end date on it if those requirements are met.
I am hoping that this gets settled quickly. This hanging over our heads makes it difficult to get excited about the upcoming season.
Selfishly, I hope that he is suspended for the full season. I have been struggling with how I feel about rooting for the Browns with watson as our Qb. A full season let's me enjoy the year and postpone making my decision until next year. Maybe I'll feel better about things with the passage of time.
My feelings on watson from the beginning:
He was the guy I wanted us to draft with the #10 the year he came out.
This trade, I would never have made if I was in control of the Browns.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Legend
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Has the Bible ever addressed whether or not we should judge others? I thought you were a believer? This is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. Yes we can judge, and will be called upon to judge the world. In righteousness. We are not to be hypocritical about our judgement.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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When I become skeptical is when numerous other victims start coming out of the woodwork … and then when some of them are deemed “not credible” it’s difficult to know what to beleive I think that's natural to some extent. But then 70% of sexual attacks never get reported to anyone, and there is safety in numbers... so it would also be natural for victims who remained silent to gain courage after learning of others coming forward. As for some claims not being credible? I think it's also expected that you'd get some 'band wagoners' trying to make a fast buck. But I think using them to undermine the rest is unfair. That's like saying all the police are bad apples because there are some rotten apples who are law enforcement. . . . as to which claims have been deemed not credible? I only know of one example where a woman's son came forward to say his mum was falsely making accusations to make money - and that women was interviewed by Buzbee and not accepted as a client. That again seems unfair as a basis to diminish the claims of others.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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We are not to be hypocritical about our judgement. Some most definitely are. But I think Vers point was really to shut you up and have you not express your opinion. Educating him isn't what he was looking for.
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There is a possibility that when he gets to play again after sitting out maybe almost 2 years with money out the wahzoo that he will not be the player he was. I see that as a very real possibility.
Joe Thomas #73
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When I become skeptical is when numerous other victims start coming out of the woodwork … and then when some of them are deemed “not credible” it’s difficult to know what to beleive I think that's natural to some extent. But then 70% of sexual attacks never get reported to anyone, and there is safety in numbers... so it would also be natural for victims who remained silent to gain courage after learning of others coming forward. As for some claims not being credible? I think it's also expected that you'd get some 'band wagoners' trying to make a fast buck. But I think using them to undermine the rest is unfair. That's like saying all the police are bad apples because there are some rotten apples who are law enforcement. . . . as to which claims have been deemed not credible? I only know of one example where a woman's son came forward to say his mum was falsely making accusations to make money - and that women was interviewed by Buzbee and not accepted as a client. That again seems unfair as a basis to diminish the claims of others. Your last part I believe is incorrect - Josina Anderson recently reported that Buzbee did file a lawsuit for that woman. When asked about it, Buzbee said that he was unaware at the time that her son had talked to the NFL, and that everything the son said to the NFL was false because his mom never talked to her son about Watson. Let's just say, I don't believe that.
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Legend
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You make good points for sure. I’m not diminishing the girls who were mistreated, but just don’t know where that line is … is it 2 girls? 12 girls? Etc.
That’s why it’s hard to place a punishment IMO. Big Ben had more serious allegations, but only with 2 girls IIRC. So, how should this one be handled?
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Legend
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Legend
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Well, anything from Buzbee should be taken with ten grains of salt … that dude is the least credible guy involved. He’s a snake
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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