I think Willls is the perfect example of the trap people fall into thinking every position needs to be an all pro. Wills is fine. He's part of the solution.
I think Wills is a decent enough player that you can win with but if the team decides not to keep Conklin I would like to see him slide over to RT and for us to address the LT spot.
I don't think that's going to happen and my reasoning is two fold. For one the Browns thus far seem excellent at developing OL talent. Bill Calahan and his staff are second to none in that department by every indication that I've seen. And that is the entire goal in the NFL. You plug holes in the FA market until you can draft/develop more long term solutions. It's not as often that you have a coaching staff who can develop later round draft picks to substitute for high priced FA's but if anyone can do it, it's Calahan. As we saw against the Bengals the depth on the OL is performing well. They are starters in the making.
Secondly, the RT position is not a lot, but yet somewhat easier position to play for the most part. If you are planning to insert a developing player into the starting line up at one of the OT positions it would be better to start him at RT.
And actually there is a third point I would like to make that I think may be more important than the first two. An OL is a unit. As fans people look at them more as individual parts but the goal is to make the whole greater than its individual parts. That holds especially true for the zone blocking scheme. Their is a fluidity in motion and cohesion that is required to make such an OL work as a unit. I think a couple of comments that have already been made in this thread pretty well sum it up. Wills is part of the solution not a part of the problem. Not everyone on your OL needs to be an all pro.
As of this moment the Browns are ranked #2 by PFF in the OL rankings. It doesn't get much better than that. And you don't get ranked that high if your LT sucks.
I think Willls is the perfect example of the trap people fall into thinking every position needs to be an all pro. Wills is fine. He's part of the solution.
100% agreed. Willis is fine.
Personally, any talk about if we will pick up his option or not is silly to me. It's happening. Only reason it wouldn't, would be something legal or he becomes a bad teammate. Which that would be out of the ordinary.
I think Willls is the perfect example of the trap people fall into thinking every position needs to be an all pro. Wills is fine. He's part of the solution.
Just a couple of things about your opinion.
The most important position on the OL is LT because they more often than not face the best pass rusher from the other team, and they are the main protection of the QB's blind side. With Wills, he is currently the least performing OL on the Browns and it's not even close. Most if not all teams start their build on the OL starting with the LT. It's the main reason that almost in all circumstances, the LT is the highest paid member of the line.
The Browns are in a situation where some hard decisions are going to have to be made prior to next season. First is Conklin at RT who's a FA at seasons end. He currently is hitting the books for a 11M cap number in 2022 and the Browns are responsible for 3M in 2023 & 2024 as dead cap due to void years the Browns added to his deal. Conklin entered 2022 as the 5th highest paid RT in the NFL. My guess is he'll be looking for an AAV of somewhere around 18M putting him in the top 3 paid if the Browns plan to resign him. Bitonio has 3-years left of his deal, but he jumps from a base salary of 3.058M in 2022 to a base salary of 11M in 2023. Teller also has 3-years left on his deal, but he jumps from a base salary of 1.5M in 2022 to a base salary of 12.5M in 2023. Pocic is sitting on a 1-year deal of 1.187M cap hit for 2022. He will either have to be let go in free agency or signed to a new long-term deal. Just an FYI, Harris is signed through 2023 at a 1.01M base salary and Hudson is signed through 2024.
Back to Wills - by May 2023, the Browns must decide whether they are going to exercise the 5th option on Wills. Wills is scheduled to have a base salary of 3.296M in 2023 with a cap hit of 6.269M. If the Browns exercise the 5th year option on Wills, his base salary in 2023 becomes fully guaranteed and his projected salary for 2024 will be 13.935M as is or could go as high as 15.943M if he's makes a Pro Bowl this year or next and it will be all fully guaranteed.
To put this in perspective, the Browns are currently paying a base salary of 15.995M for the 5 starters on the line. In 2023, the Browns will be paying a base salary of 26.797M for just 3 starters on the line with RT and C being open. In 2024, the Browns will be scheduled to pay 37.935M for just 3 starters on the line (being they exercised Wills 5th year option) with RT and C still being open. At a minimum, the OL costs increase 40% in 2023 before addressing RT and C and it increases 57.8% over 2022 in 2024 before addressing RT and C.
The question then remains, is the weakest performing member on the OL (Wills) worth guaranteed money of 13.935M to 15.943M in 2024 and being the highest paid member of the line?
I think there are a several layers to this discussion... one is as simple as looking at 2022 and whether Wills and the OL as a unit are good enough and the answer is yes. No team has studs at every position, few teams have an OL as good as the Browns unit us playing. Thank god for Bill Callahan.
A deeper dive regarding the future of the OL is just as you have laid out in your post. 2023 and beyond, we'll have jumped from $16M for 5 positions to $26M for 3 positions.
Looking at Will contract it doesn't look as if his 2023 cap hit is too bad ?
The question then remains, is the weakest performing member on the OL (Wills) worth guaranteed money of 13.935M to 15.943M in 2024 and being the highest paid member of the line?
Unless this is an error or I am reading it wrong. Why are you worried about what will happen in a season and half from now? So many things could change before a season and half from now. Rosters go significant changes year to year.
The bottom line right now is he's been a good piece to the line. He won't be 24 till next may and has plenty of room to grow. He will soon have a mobile QB, that will process the field quicker and is way more dynamic then JB. There is no reason not to pick up his option.
Salary cap numbers only mean so much. If you are projecting more than a year out, then what you are doing is incorrect. Teams have ways to work with contracts and adjust yearly. If there is a team in the league that has been one of the best with the cap, it's been the Browns.
The question then remains, is the weakest performing member on the OL (Wills) worth guaranteed money of 13.935M to 15.943M in 2024 and being the highest paid member of the line?
Unless this is an error or I am reading it wrong. Why are you worried about what will happen in a season and half from now? So many things could change before a season and half from now. Rosters go significant changes year to year.
The bottom line right now is he's been a good piece to the line. He won't be 24 till next may and has plenty of room to grow. He will soon have a mobile QB, that will process the field quicker and is way more dynamic then JB.
Salary cap numbers only mean so much. If you are projecting more than a year out, then what you are doing is incorrect. Teams have ways to work with contracts and adjust yearly. If there is a team in the league that has been one of the best with the cap, it's been the Browns.
The New Orleans Saints were close to being $75 million over the salary cap this offseason, but still managed a way to move money around so that could have enough room to trade for Deshaun Watson. Teams have found ways to manipulate the cap. The salary cap is not the "hell" that it used to be.
I know one thing.........the OL is extremely important to the success of football teams. I'm glad our FO understands that and is willing to pay good money to keep these guys.
The question then remains, is the weakest performing member on the OL (Wills) worth guaranteed money of 13.935M to 15.943M in 2024 and being the highest paid member of the line?
Unless this is an error or I am reading it wrong. Why are you worried about what will happen in a season and half from now? So many things could change before a season and half from now. Rosters go significant changes year to year.
The bottom line right now is he's been a good piece to the line. He won't be 24 till next may and has plenty of room to grow. He will soon have a mobile QB, that will process the field quicker and is way more dynamic then JB. There is no reason not to pick up his option.
Salary cap numbers only mean so much. If you are projecting more than a year out, then what you are doing is incorrect. Teams have ways to work with contracts and adjust yearly. If there is a team in the league that has been one of the best with the cap, it's been the Browns.
Correct. The Browns will absolutely pick up his 5th option and may even work out a long term contract in the off season when it may be cheaper after this season to do so. Also, the Browns can just restructure the salary into signing bonus as has been Berry's modus operandi.
Conklin will be gone unless he agrees to significantly less than what he can get likely get on the open market and Hudson will be the starting RT.
The salary cap is a non-issue. Berry will likely even restructure Watson's salary next season again and convert it to a roster bonus.
The question then remains, is the weakest performing member on the OL (Wills) worth guaranteed money of 13.935M to 15.943M in 2024 and being the highest paid member of the line?
Unless this is an error or I am reading it wrong. Why are you worried about what will happen in a season and half from now? So many things could change before a season and half from now. Rosters go significant changes year to year.
The bottom line right now is he's been a good piece to the line. He won't be 24 till next may and has plenty of room to grow. He will soon have a mobile QB, that will process the field quicker and is way more dynamic then JB. There is no reason not to pick up his option.
Salary cap numbers only mean so much. If you are projecting more than a year out, then what you are doing is incorrect. Teams have ways to work with contracts and adjust yearly. If there is a team in the league that has been one of the best with the cap, it's been the Browns.
Correct. The Browns will absolutely pick up his 5th option and may even work out a long term contract in the off season when it may be cheaper after this season to do so. Also, the Browns can just restructure the salary into signing bonus as has been Berry's modus operandi.
Conklin will be gone unless he agrees to significantly less than what he can get likely get on the open market and Hudson will be the starting RT.
The salary cap is a non-issue. Berry will likely even restructure Watson's salary next season again and convert it to a roster bonus.
I’m with those who think the OL is THE most important thing after a QB. You can plug in WR/RB much more readily than OL.
Plus, you can really control the game and minimize a bad defense’s impact.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
There is a fair amount of thought that Hudson is the heir-apparent to the RT spot. We've all seen that crazy goal-line block after he was sent in motion.
Hudson is 1" taller and 6 lbs heavier than Wills...but looks much more 'fit' on the field (Disclaimer: that could be completely untrue...it's just the eye test for me.)
To my ridiculously-untrained eye, Wills 'looks' more like a RT (bulkier, less-athletic, strong) and Hudson 'looks' more like a LT (lean, quick, athletic).
Maybe I'm jaded by that crazy goal line play where Hudson ran like a TE?
Note: I truly hope this doesn't ignite a "Wills sucks" argument...that's not my goal here. Just wondering which is 'better'...Wills @ LT and Hudson @ RT? Or switch it.
I agree. Wills problem is he followed Joe Thomas. If we are going to start getting on players, we need to get on that punk Hospital Ward. That guy just doesn't care. He is just going to ride out this contract to collect the money.
We don't play better when Wills is out. We do play better when the punk is out. Think about that.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I agree. Wills problem is he followed Joe Thomas. If we are going to start getting on players, we need to get on that punk Hospital Ward. That guy just doesn't care. He is just going to ride out this contract to collect the money.
We don't play better when Wills is out. We do play better when the punk is out. Think about that.
I don't see anyone "getting on players" and you will certainly not get disagreement from me on Ward.
I'm just wondering if we are (could-be) a stronger OL with Wills @ RT and Hudson @ LT AFTER the Conklin-era is over. Hudson's improvement since last year is impressive...he 'looks' more-athletic on the filed than any of our OTs - like a LT - while Wills 'looks' bigger (even though he's not) and 'looks' like a typical RT.
Wills has a simple problem I have seen and it does not involve Joe T., not to take exception 'Peen. Not sure anyone could follow him as maybe best ever. Glaring issue is his feet. If they got quicker, he would be better. Slow feet can cause quick flags when he jumps the count to gain an edge. Has he had many flags? Regularly? How about holding, called or not? I think we throw him in at RT and give him an assignment where he is moving forward. Much better skills. Wills won't be labelled as nimble, but he can be a plow. Hudson is interesting and improving. I am thinking we need to address Ward. Part-timer. Seems indifferent at times. Just failing at being a shut down corner even when healthy. We are paying a premium for pine surfing. He needs to ramp it up after protocol if he is staying. We are always looking for CB help. .02
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
I agree. Wills problem is he followed Joe Thomas. If we are going to start getting on players, we need to get on that punk Hospital Ward. That guy just doesn't care. He is just going to ride out this contract to collect the money.
We don't play better when Wills is out. We do play better when the punk is out. Think about that.
Wills problems have nothing to do with following Joe Thomas at LT..that claim would be nothing more than making excuses for Wills poor play. Wills is slow are processing information and that issue was compounded when the Browns draft team assumed switching Wills from RT to LT would be easy and selected him as there first round pick #10 pick when there were better OTs on the draft board.
Wills is improving a bit each year but is yet to be considered elite as a Pro and so far would be considered an average or below average LT at the Pro level. Wills has had the benefit of learning the Pro game under one of the finest OLine coaches in the NFL, Bill Callahan, yet Wills progress is slow. This season, Joe Thomas himself stepped in to help tutor Wills in an effort to help.
To date Wills has bee flagged for 4 penalities (3 holding-1 false start) and has given up 3.5 sacks after 8 games.
As for Wills being extended, he was the first player drafted by Andrew Berry and that fact alone gives Wills a better chance of being extended for a 5th year. Is it enough to ensure Wills of a long term contract...that is a big question mark. If I'm the Browns, no way do get ahead of myself and pretend that Wills deserves a long term deal until I see improvement in his play, proving that he is worthy.
With the OL.. in the NFL... ? I'd think, probably... extend Willz, and, if it doesn't work out, it would be a tradeable contract. There are a LOT of bad OL in the NFL, really, and, well the NFL iz the league that facez the toughest defensez to be an OL in of any league in the world.
Actually, I'd think they'd probably extend Willz, and keep him az a Brown for the next 5-to 5+ more yearz. No?
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Look at Joel Bitonio, he was Meh, for six years... (X number of years), at the start of his career, wasn't he. Now, they say he is pretty good, REALLY good nowadays. so Wills? Hang on to him.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Look at Joel Bitonio, he was Meh, for six years... (X number of years), at the start of his career, wasn't he. Now, they say he is pretty good, REALLY good nowadays. so Wills? Hang on to him.
Bitonio was good as a rookie and he's been good to great every season.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I agree. Wills problem is he followed Joe Thomas. If we are going to start getting on players, we need to get on that punk Hospital Ward. That guy just doesn't care. He is just going to ride out this contract to collect the money.
We don't play better when Wills is out. We do play better when the punk is out. Think about that.
Wills problems have nothing to do with following Joe Thomas at LT..that claim would be nothing more than making excuses for Wills poor play. Wills is slow are processing information and that issue was compounded when the Browns draft team assumed switching Wills from RT to LT would be easy and selected him as there first round pick #10 pick when there were better OTs on the draft board.
Wills is improving a bit each year but is yet to be considered elite as a Pro and so far would be considered an average or below average LT at the Pro level. Wills has had the benefit of learning the Pro game under one of the finest OLine coaches in the NFL, Bill Callahan, yet Wills progress is slow. This season, Joe Thomas himself stepped in to help tutor Wills in an effort to help.
To date Wills has bee flagged for 4 penalities (3 holding-1 false start) and has given up 3.5 sacks after 8 games.
As for Wills being extended, he was the first player drafted by Andrew Berry and that fact alone gives Wills a better chance of being extended for a 5th year. Is it enough to ensure Wills of a long term contract...that is a big question mark. If I'm the Browns, no way do get ahead of myself and pretend that Wills deserves a long term deal until I see improvement in his play, proving that he is worthy.
I am not making excuses for the guy. I just don't see his guy clobbering the QB time and time again.
If we want to try moving players around, I have no problem with that. I just don't see any real problem with the guy.
Indeed, any problems he has with his play don't have anything to do with Joe. The problems come in the eyes of people like you who think he isn't doing a good job. Seriously, you thought that I think any deficiencies he has in his play is because he followed Joe and he would somehow be playing better had he followed someone else? LOL
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Like I said before, I don't think Wills is a bad LT I just think he would be a better player as a RT but I'm fine with him staying put if they decide to keep Conklin.
I agree. Wills problem is he followed Joe Thomas. If we are going to start getting on players, we need to get on that punk Hospital Ward. That guy just doesn't care. He is just going to ride out this contract to collect the money.
We don't play better when Wills is out. We do play better when the punk is out. Think about that.
Wills problems have nothing to do with following Joe Thomas at LT..that claim would be nothing more than making excuses for Wills poor play. Wills is slow are processing information and that issue was compounded when the Browns draft team assumed switching Wills from RT to LT would be easy and selected him as there first round pick #10 pick when there were better OTs on the draft board.
Wills is improving a bit each year but is yet to be considered elite as a Pro and so far would be considered an average or below average LT at the Pro level. Wills has had the benefit of learning the Pro game under one of the finest OLine coaches in the NFL, Bill Callahan, yet Wills progress is slow. This season, Joe Thomas himself stepped in to help tutor Wills in an effort to help.
To date Wills has bee flagged for 4 penalities (3 holding-1 false start) and has given up 3.5 sacks after 8 games.
As for Wills being extended, he was the first player drafted by Andrew Berry and that fact alone gives Wills a better chance of being extended for a 5th year. Is it enough to ensure Wills of a long term contract...that is a big question mark. If I'm the Browns, no way do get ahead of myself and pretend that Wills deserves a long term deal until I see improvement in his play, proving that he is worthy.
Originally Posted by Ballpeen I am not making excuses for the guy. I just don't see his guy clobbering the QB time and time again.
If we want to try moving players around, I have no problem with that. I just don't see any real problem with the guy.
Indeed, any problems he has with his play don't have anything to do with Joe. The problems come in the eyes of people like you who think he isn't doing a good job. Seriously, you thought that I think any deficiencies he has in his play is because he followed Joe and he would somehow be playing better had he followed someone else? LOL
peen...I could swear that at the very top of this post you said the following...
" Originally Posted by Ballpeen...I agree. Wills problem is he followed Joe Thomas. "
A lot of it is. I mean how many fans actually study the OL as in regards to their jobs? The main responsibility of a LT is to protect your QB's blind side and run block when the run play is called in their direction. It's not about style points. Thomas was excellent at it while also being a technician at the position. That's what fans became used to. How many sacks does Wills give up? Style points be damned.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
According to PFF he's given up 4 sacks and 21 pressures over-all in 549 snaps at LT with a 95.5% efficiency rating. To put that into perspective out of 24 players who have played at least 400 snaps at LT only 4 other players have a worse EFF rating, which I find shocking, I thought there would be a lot more with worse EFF ratings.
Peen since I don't get it..see if you can break down Wills game against the Ravens for us. I've already done so...Let's see if we see the same things when reviewing OLine video. I'll even post my break down first so you can just copy if you want to make it easy on yourself..!
WILLS VS RAVENS...Oct 23, 2022
1st qtr--2:09...(2nd/10@R20)--Wills False Start.
2nd qtr---13:28...(2nd/15@C7yd )--Wills executes a x (cross) block as Ravens LB #6 moves up, over Wills inside shoulder..no way for Browns outside blocker (Njoku) to complete the cross block, unable to reach Ravens #6...Wills fails to change the call and take #6, who blitzes "untouched", tackling Hunt for a 4yd loss back to 3 yd line..now 3rd/19.
---10:05/2qtr...(1st/10@25)--Wills misses block on #93 who tackles Chubb for short gain..Wills clearly upset.
---9:34/2qtr...(2nd/8@27)--Wills holds (grabs jersey #40 under his chin and pulls him down nullifies 14 yd gain.
---0:53/2qtr...(2nd/10@R40)--Wills gives up strip/sack to #50/Houston..Browns recover.
3rd qtr--13:23..(1st/10@C40)--Wills looks confused when man over him drops into coverage..Wills gives #92 a push then watches as #92 hits Brissett in the back getting in on sack for -5yds.
4th qtr---2:45...(3rd/5@C21)--Wills misses block on #99 who pressures and hits Brissett in back--no flag!
---2:18/4th...(3rd/12@B44)--Wills misses block on #50 who misses tackle on Brissett who scrambles for 7 yds.
This one worries me in that Berry will decide to turn back to Harris.
Harris has a steep mountain to climb before he reaches "starting quality" standards at center. If one watches how Harris was injured, his weaknesses were exposed and there is no surgery that can repair what Harris lacks. Harris was over-powered and bent backwards until his knee gave way.
Harris would have to remake himself in the weight room, getting bigger and stronger if he continues to pursue a career as a center in the NFL.
Can GM Berry stop falling in love with his draft picks, thinking each of his draft picks deserve a spot on the Browns roster? Good question...
I am glad that Berry, Stefanski, and Callahan realize just how important the offensive line is. In 2020, the Browns were ranked 1st overall by PFF. They were ranked 8th overall despite injuries last year. The latest PFF rankings this year has the Browns as the second best OL in the league, despite losing their starting center from last year and this year's projected starting center. Only the Eagles are ranked higher. You can check out the link for the complete list. Some are trying to portray an inaccurate view of our OL and those who put it together.
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2. CLEVELAND BROWNS (NO CHANGE)
Projected Week 9 Starters: LT Jedrick Wills Jr. LG Joel Bitonio C Ethan Pocic RG Hjalte Froholdt RT Jack Conklin
Even without Wyatt Teller in the lineup, the Browns stomped the Bengals on Monday night. Hjalte Frodoldt had a perfect day in pass protection. Jedrick Wills Jr. has allowed 21 pressures this season, more than double the next-highest figure on the Browns. The Browns are the best-graded run-blocking line in the NFL this season.
Even without Wyatt Teller in the lineup, the Browns stomped the Bengals on Monday night. Hjalte Frodoldt had a perfect day in pass protection. The Browns are the best-graded run-blocking line in the NFL this season.
From the information above, concerning OG Frodoldt, someone within the Browns organization did not need the use of numbers and charts to judge Frodoldt's potential. Just a hunch that OLine Coach Callahan watched Frodoldt on the field and in preseason and was not willing to risk losing him in an attempt to get him on the practice squad.
Teller is due to come back from his calf injury so The Dane goes to the bench or is used in Callahan's heavy OLine packages. I believe Frodoldt could fill in at any position on the Browns OLine..OT, OG or C, if needed. The Browns are fortunate to have such a luxury thanks to experienced coaches who have an eye for talent.
Callahan is great, but the heavy OL packages come from Stefanski. This is his scheme and his play calling. Thank God that we have Callahan to teach our o-linemen, but he isn't calling the plays or coming up w/the schemes.