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The only thing I will say is it may be as Pit mentioned and they consider this a throwaway season and look to retool this offseason and start with Watson game one.

No offense, but I think that idea is absurd. We tanked years ago. We are not throwing this season away.


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Conklin and Wills were brought in by Berry. He re-signed the other 3. His first big move at QB hasn't played yet, and his back up plan has performed better than the guy the last GM picked at pick 1. Would you rather he didn't re-sign Chubb, Bitonio, and Ward so his drafted players could grade at the top? I'm really not sure what you're comment is saying.

Clowney and Garrett didn't play. They make the guys around them (grade) better.


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Well, they had 90 players report to camp to choose from to make the 53-man roster. You'd like to think that of the 4 DT's they eventually rostered, they'd be able to find at least 1 that could be rated at least in the top 50% of the league after the first 25% of the season. Hmmm. yet obviously the Browns could not do that.

So, of the principals involved, who do you hold accountable for the lack of defensive interior line play? Is it the top dog Berry? He is the person responsible for signing the players. Is it HC Stefanski who's supposed to be the ultimate decision maker on the roster and staff? Maybe it's Brownson, she is the Chief of Staff in the decision-making process. Maybe it's the DC Woods, after all it's his scheme (approved by Stefanski) that gets put on the field each week. Do we drop down to Dunn the Defensive Assistant to Woods? Perhaps it's Anderson in charge of Defensive Quality Control, not so much quality on the defense as a whole so far this year. I got it, it has to be the Defensive Line Coach Kiffin or his Assistant Defensive Line Coach Thomas. They have to be the fall guys for the poor level of DT play - Right?

If I'm a betting man, I doubt any move on Woods happens during the season. The heat on Stefanski will continue to rise if the defense doesn't improve dramatically. There could be a sacrificial lamb down the road, but it'll be someone under Woods. I'm guessing Kiffin or Thomas are on the hottest seats right now. Sad considering the ultimate decision maker will skate until Berry or Haslam decide it's time to address the real responsible person - the Head Coach.

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Did one of guards get hurt yesterday?


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Originally Posted by Milk Man
Jordan Elliott has an overall PFF grade of 29.5 on the season. Ranked 126th out of 127 DTs.

So you're saying he is not the worst?

Originally Posted by Milk Man
Tommy Togiai has and overall PFF grade of 28.5 on the season. Ranked 127th out of 127 DTs.

Oh.


How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?

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So we have the two worst DT in the league that have enough snaps to qualify


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. DPJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Did one of guards get hurt yesterday?

Not that I’m aware of.


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Why doesn't our HC and GM just give in and sign a couple of DT's that are out there and help the team out. It's not a crime to make a mistake on judging our talent. It's a crime not to try and do something about it.

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It's my opinion that if things get as ugly as I feel they will, we're in for a major housecleaning at the end of the season. I don't want it to happen I don't feel KS and AB deserve it, but Jimmy Haslam may not see it that way. The way we lost the 2 games we did was totally frustrating and is sticking in everyone's craw as it should be. The volcano waiting to erupt. I really don't want to have to start over again with this team. We don't need rebuild take 20 or whatever it is.

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I disagree. I like you Homes, but you are listening to the wrong set of folks on here. They are wrong about almost every freaking football topic that comes across the board. We have a very good group of people here that actually work together. Berry and Stefanski are an excellent team. Well above average. Some are blaming them for the Baker thing, but they were right and the facts are proving that to be true.


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Originally Posted by Dawgs4Life
So we have the two worst DT in the league that have enough snaps to qualify

Scheme and coaching have to be a part of their struggles. It's statistically virtually impossible that we have the 2 DTs with the least talent playing, there are contributing factors. Whatever the root cause, it's disheartening to say the very least.

As for blame or accountability ... It seems like posters have an absolute position that it's all Berry or none of it is Berry ... Or KS or whoever. The truth is that there is a blend of responsibility. There are positions in the draft that Berry has chronically missed on. There are players in FA that he has brought in that are stalwarts of them team. Wait and see how the season shakes out ...


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j/c...


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Vers I don't want to see it happen either I like Berry and Stefanski. I'm just saying it might happen when you take our history into consideration. They were right about Baker I agree. I liked Baker and wanted to see him get another shot here when healthy but as things have turned out it would have been a mistake. I didn't know what was going on behind the scenes. I imagine it got to be too much for our coaches and FO to tolerate. He's gone that's it. I just don't want to see things blown up again and hurt some good people we do have.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I disagree. I like you Homes, but you are listening to the wrong set of folks on here. They are wrong about almost every freaking football topic that comes across the board. We have a very good group of people here that actually work together. Berry and Stefanski are an excellent team. Well above average. Some are blaming them for the Baker thing, but they were right and the facts are proving that to be true.

Not enough to tell what posters should write about, or who, and on what topics ... And it's not enough to tell posters they SHOULD have responded to a comment when they didn't.... Not enough to tell posters they don't have the intelligence to understand, or to talk about posters you have on ignore ..... Now you got to tell posters who they should listen to!!! Absolutely priceless.

rofl


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Homes, no one is perfect. The league is full of the best coaches and FO minds the world has to offer. It's highly competitive. I have personally spoken to college and NFL coaches and almost every single one of them has uttered how incredibly difficult it is to even win a game at those levels.

I think that our guys have done a good job overall. Have there been failures? Of course. Berry should have upgraded the DTs, especially since the 4-2-5 needs big, block-eating DTs to compensate for the smaller, more agile, faster guys at other positions. I think he should have kept Landry. I am suspicious of us not cutting any of our draft choices over two years. Some of his draft picks have underperformed.

On the other hand, he has upgraded our QB room w/Watson and Jacoby. Both are better than Baker and Keenum. He's upgraded our OL w/Wills and and Conklin. He re-signed Teller and Bitonio.

He re-signed both Chubb and Hunt while he's been here.

DPJ was a steal in the 6th. JOK has issues, but he was a good value pick. I think Bell will develop, but that is not a fact. I just like what I see. He's upgraded our defensive backfield. Our kicking specialists are much better.

Again, there are issues, but no one talks about the positives.


As far as Stefanski goes, the criticism is mind-boggling to me. I get that fans and media folks have been bashing coaches for ever. I get that the Baker guys blame him for Baker being gone. But, his scheme is excellent. His playcalling is actually a strength. What did Baker do the year before Stefanski got here? What's he doing this year? Did Jacoby ever play this well in the NFL before Stefanski? Look, I don't know a lot about a lot of things. When I don't, I listen to those that do. I listen to guys like Clem and lamp when it comes to music. I listen to guys like Luke when it comes to technology. I listen to Eve when she talks about gaming and marketing. I listen to guys like 05 and peen when it comes to law. I listen to guys like jfan when it comes to mental health. It's about knowing your lane and trying to educate yourself. One thing I am supremely confident in is that I know football. Very well. I think better than anyone else on here and that is not an insult to others who know the game well. It was my profession. I should know more, so I am not bragging. I just get sick of nonsensical arguments that are often fueled by an alternative motive. I have no issue w/those who are not knowledgeable about football, but it does bother me when folks who don't know what the hell they are talking about try and act like those that do are ignorant.


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AB can do something about the DT problem. There are guys out there that can help. Again, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes but I would like tosee something done if possible.

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I agree w/you and I have been saying that ever since this summer. Again, there is good and bad. That goes for all teams. Most people think highly of Baltimore's FO and coaching staff. Yet, they have blown two 20 point leads this season. Should their GM be fired for not improving the secondary? Should Harbaugh be fired? I could go on and on. People like to rag on our guys, but they ignore the same things going on league wide.


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Serious questions -

You seem to give Stefanski a lot of credit for his offensive accomplishments, but what about his performance as the head coach?

Do you think a good head coach loses to the Jets in the manner that he did?

Stefanski is responsible for the entire operation, not just the offense. We are 2-2 after having the easiest 4 game stretch to start the season.

I will repeat that I don't want him fired, but the results don't scream great head coach. They say pretty good offensive mind. Unfortunately that's not all he's responsible for.

All we can hope for now is that he gets better.

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Originally Posted by Milk Man
j/c...


I like it, fast legs along with JOK

Something has to work eventually

and it's not far off




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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
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The only thing I will say is it may be as Pit mentioned and they consider this a throwaway season and look to retool this offseason and start with Watson game one.

No offense, but I think that idea is absurd. We tanked years ago. We are not throwing this season away.
I agree, and thats why I said that notion is unfair to the fans, I also don't think Pit actually meant it either..But not much else can explain some of the decisions on defense and Wr so far this year.


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I get the impression that either we don't do a good job of scouting and selecting DT and WR's, and or we don't value the positions in the realm of roster building. By that I mean that there might be a feeling that "anybody" can play DT or be a decent receiver. They seem to be waiting to find that mid round value pick, which hasn't happened to this point.

Kind of like there is an attitude that you don't need to draft guards and centers early because you can find good ones in the middle rounds. Maybe that is true, but when it comes to receivers and DT's, we haven't been finding those guys.

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I think it’s definitely the later … we don’t value those positions when it comes to winning football games. We clearly value them the least.

We didn’t even pretend to care about DT, and I fear for the day (probably soon) when Clowney doesn’t lineup with Garrett


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. DPJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Rish, we were 6 and 10 the year before Stefanski arrived. We were 7-8-1 the year before that. He came in during Covid and somehow got new schemes installed and removed almost all the chaos and lack of discipline from the team. We went 11 and 5 that year. He was named NFL Coach of the Year. He took a QB who was playing like trash and schemed around him to highlight his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. He took almost all of the pressure off that qb and relied on the running game and OL to make the offense go. That qb had his best year in the NFL even though it had warts on it, such as the meltdowns against Pittsburgh and Baltimore. Last year, we went 8 and 9 w/the probably the worst starting qb situation in the league. Baker, Keenum, and Mullen all started games.

He endured the OBJ/Baker thing that threatened to shred the team into smithereens. He has fielded a competitive team this year despite the monumental distractions of the Watson affair and a significant proportion of the fan base that are still rooting for Baker. Think about the Watson thing for a moment. Who was left to answer almost all the questions on a daily basis from the media? Haslam? Depo? Berry? Or Stefanski? This team hasn't lost focus. They have not given up. There is no in-fighting this year.

Stefanski doesn't control the defense. That's the responsibility of Woods. Firing him in-season would only feed the media and fan frenzy that the Browns are a cluster blank. Maintaining stability is the wise choice at this particular point in time. I'm sure a lot is being said behind closed doors, but going public w/it would be a mistake. If a change needs to be made, it should occur at the end of the season.

Look, a portion of the fan base blames Stefanski for Baker's demise and parting w/the team. They claim that the injury was the reason he played so poorly last year, even though there are video breakdowns showing that Baker's lack of processing skills, his poor decision making, and inability to deal w/defenses that schemed to keep him in the pocket were his real downfall. Nope, they maintained and still maintain that it was the injury and Stefanski who held Baker back. Yet, when Baker became available, no one wanted him. Why couldn't the other GMs across the league see what are astute fans saw? Why didn't they recognize Stefanski sucked as a coach and the injury was the reason for Baker's poor play? Why didn't they realize that Baker was a great teammate and leader? Hell, we had to pay a good chunk of his salary just to get him out of the building. And what is Baker doing this year now that he injury free and away from the terrible coaching of Stefanski? He's the worst starting QB in the league.

Meanwhile, Stefanski has a journeyman qb playing very well. The guy is limited as a qb, but he has had us in position to win. I think Stefanski is going to be tested big time this year because of the adverse circumstances. Injuries to Myles and Clowney were tough to deal with. Even Walker was missed against ATL. Last year, the D eventually came around and played pretty good ball for most of the season. We need that to happen again. Our offense will not be explosive w/out Watson, but we can be solid on that side of the ball. They need help from the D.

The fan base and local media has been historically ignorant when it comes to evaluating coaches. They hated Belichick for crying out loud! Screamed loud that he should be fired and how stupid he was. He turned out to be the NFL's greatest all-time HC. They didn't like Marty, who was successful. They wanted Shanny fired and he is now very successful. They hated Bruce Arians who had success as an assistant in Pittsburgh, did a great job in Indy when Pagano had cancer, and won a Super Bowl w/Tampa Bay. They called Dabol a clown and he has had success w/other teams including Buffalo and he has already turned around the culture in New York.

Give it time. Let's see what Stefanski can do when he has a legitimate star QB. Be patient and don't listen to those who are butt-hurt over the Baker situation.


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I was thinking about this when I saw someone’s post about Woods’ scheme. I admit that I know very little about X’s and O’s and how a team can be prepared and communicate on the field.

Maybe Woods has implemented a good scheme and plan for each week? I don’t know.

One thing I can observe: our players don’t play hard defensively, at least when I compare them to the good teams around the league. We aren’t urgent or flying around or gang tackling. We aren’t ballhawking or excited. We typically tend to be passive and unmotivated.


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. DPJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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There are 16 teams with a 2-2 record.

The Browns are one of them. Parity is the NFL.

Since that is reality when you play without key players like Myles, Clowney, and Bryan, on defense. Those few plays that make the difference go the other way.

The Browns have played four games and three of the games has been razor thin close. The two loses could have gone either way and both went the wrong way.

The Browns invested heavily in a quarterback who is not playing. Because of that investment there are high draft picks playing on other teams.
The Browns are not getting the return on investment until Deshaun Watson plays.

GM's do not bat 1000. No GM hits the target on every try. Andrew Berry is an excellent GM.

Kevin Stefanski is a damn good head coach. It takes patience and experience to become a great head coach. The teams who succeed have patience.

Before this season began many were ready to give in and say it was a lost season. The Browns are tied for first place with thirteen games to go.

Honestly, I do not get all the crying and complaining.

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You had me until you said Stefanski doesn't control the defense. And this is my entire point...he controls all of it. All the good he is doing on O is being erased by all the bad on defense and special teams.

He is currently an average head coach coaching an average 2-2 football team. And if he can't beat the Jets and Falcons, he can't beat Robert Saleh and Arthur Smith, it could get really ugly here soon.

I agree about the O. We have a real NFL offense. We can move the ball. We have an identity. We can score with subpar QB play. I agree with everything you say about Stefanski on the O side of the ball. But he's got to be better across the board. If it were just about the O, we'd be 4-0.

If Stefanski isn't careful he's going to become Baker 2.0. We'll be stuck with an average head coach, not because hes actually good, but because he's better than fhe previous guys.

Bottom line is he needs to be better.

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I have a few questions for you. Does Shanahan coach SF's defense? Does Reid coach KC's D? Does McVay coach LA's defense? Does Taylor coach Cinci's defense?

I really don't get your point. It would be a mistake for Stefanski to take over the defense. That's not his area of expertise. He can fire Woods and hire another defensive coach, but he absolutely should not coach the D. And again, I don't think it would be wise to fire Woods right now. At the end of the year, it will be a possibility. However, let's not forget last year. We started off a bit rocky on D, but we had game w/the following point totals allowed: 6, 7, 14, 15, 16, 10, 16, 16, and 16. We gave up 24 to GB, but the D actually played well. We threw 4 picks on offense and we were put in bad situations all game long. Rodgers was the league's MVP.


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j/c:


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Maybe I'm confused. Are you saying the head coach is the head coach in name only? If the head coach only works on one side of the ball, how could they be the head coach? I thought that's what a coordinator is.

What are the requirements of a head coach? Maybe I have an outdated view on that.

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LOL.....now you have me confused. LOL

Bottom line is we disagree on the job Stefanski is doing. I respect your opinion. No problem w/us disagreeing and there weren't even any personal insults during our exchange.


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j/c...


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Gag.


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@Vers.

I have no problem at all to admit that I’m inferior to your knowledge regarding American football. I have only been a supporter for 5 years and I’m still learning but better late then never. I’m almost 60 years old so my learning process is maybe a bit slower to when I was younger. Maybe you should help others with less knowledge then just being disrespectful whenever you disagree in a subject? Come up with good arguments helps. Just a thought.

Another question.

Do you think only football knowledge counts when it comes to judging managers, coaches and players?

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That’s a terrible stat


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. DPJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by Milk Man
Gag.



And 12.5 points.


HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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I really don't get your point. It would be a mistake for Stefanski to take over the defense. That's not his area of expertise.

...(DEFENSE)...NOT STEFANSKI'S AREA OF EXPERTISE..?

Quote
Stefanski graduated from St. Joseph's Preparatory School in 2000 and the University of Pennsylvania in 2004. Stefanski played defensive back while at Penn, being named the Quakers Freshman of the Year in 2000. He was part of the only undefeated Penn team of the decade and was twice an All-Ivy League selection... LINK

Stefanski is a product of the DEFENCE...playing the DB position in college...yet "IGNORING" football basics that are associated with something so simple as "PROPER TACKLING TECHNIQUES" by the Browns DBs and LBs.

I invite "anyone" to review the Browns game against the Falcons and tell me if performance turned by the Browns #43 is acceptable, on any level. If I had a High School player who turned the effort that #43 did against the Falcons, that HS player would not be playing on my team. Yet the Browns DC and HC accept that level of play from veteran players who should be setting an example for the young DBs. When the HC doesn't emphasis even the basics of how to tackle or impress upon his players what he expects of them pertaining to something as simple as how to tackle...it might be time to clean house..!!





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Originally Posted by Milk Man

guys.....looks like we gotta find a way to cut the stadium power off once the 3rd quarter ends. then we'll be ok.


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

- Theodore Roosevelt
Joined: Mar 2013
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Originally Posted by Floquinho
@Vers.

I have no problem at all to admit that I’m inferior to your knowledge regarding American football. I have only been a supporter for 5 years and I’m still learning but better late then never. I’m almost 60 years old so my learning process is maybe a bit slower to when I was younger. Maybe you should help others with less knowledge then just being disrespectful whenever you disagree in a subject? Come up with good arguments helps. Just a thought.

I do try and educate others about the game. I try and explain my opinions, just like I just did w/Rish. It doesn't bother me at all that he doesn't agree w/me. The conversation was civil. I will say that many posters have told me that they like reading my football analysis and don't respond because they don't want to get in the middle of things. I will say this......it's pretty hard to stay in a good mood when 5 posters follow you around and constantly want to fight. I've put them on ignore to try to stop the bickering, but it isn't helping much. The refs and other posters allow the personality conflicts to derail football topics.

As to your professed lack of knowledge. It's not a big deal even if that is true. Knowing football isn't exactly a great accomplishment. Wanting to learn is a great trait. I just don't like the guys who don't know what they are saying and resort to personal insults to win a supposed football discussion.



Quote
Another question.

Do you think only football knowledge counts when it comes to judging managers, coaches and players?

No, it's not the only thing that counts. I do think it helps. Guys complain about play calls and they don't even know how the play is run. They don't know the difference between Cover 2 and Cover 4. They don't recognize trap blocking vs gap blocking or even area blocking. It's a popular thing to question play calling and schemes, but I don't think it's wise to argue something w/such force if you aren't even sure what you are looking at. I would not trash a chef for which ingredients he puts in his creation or even the order he puts them in. I would not tell a doctor that he sucks at saving his patients because some of them don't survive the operation.

I think the emphasis on here is way more about egos and personalities rather than knowledge and the game of football. Just my opinion on things. Btw---you can always PM me if you have a football question. You seem like an eager learner. I'll answer if I am able and if I don't know the answer, I will tell you that, too. Heck, you can ask me on this forum, as well.


"They tried to bury us. They didn't know we were seeds." -----Mexican Proverb
1 member likes this: Floquinho
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