DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Watson

lol

Not sure what steve said to make you laugh, but I'm assuming it was in response to my post.

Hear me out on the importance of having a top-tier qb as opposed to having a great defense. Would one great defensive player elevate the entire team? Could a great qb elevate the the entire team? How many excellent defensive players would it take to really make the team a legit Super Bowl contender? Could one great qb make a good team into a great team?

Who won the last two Super Bowls? Rams and Tampa Bay, right? What was the main difference between the Rams of 2021 and the Rams of 2020? Didn't they make a huge trade to get Matthew Stafford to replace their former #1 overall draft choice? What about TB? Weren't they 7 and 9 in 2019 w/Winston at qb? Didn't they win the Super Bowl one year later w/Brady?

Imagine this hypothetical if you will. The league decides to redistribute the talent across the league. Each player from every team is put in one huge pool. All teams are left w/no players and a lottery is held. Who is the first pick? I'll say a qb. Do you disagree? How about top 3? Top 5? Top 10? How many qbs would be in the top 10 versus defensive players?

Teams give up the farm for QBs. The Rams gave up a ton to draft the aforementioned Goff. Think about what teams gave up for guys like RGIII, Wentz, and even Trubisky? How did that work out? It's so hard to predict how college qbs will project to the NFL, yet teams keep drafting them high. Ask yourself why?

I mention all this because the Browns went all-in on acquiring a QB who has already proven to be elite. He's not an older qb like Brady or Wilson. He's also a lot younger than Stafford. Heck, I think he is actually younger than Baker [I could be wrong about that.] I think he is only 26. And remember that reportedly, 13-14 teams were interested in trading for him and at least 5 agreed to Houston's steep trade demands.

I'd love to have a great defense, but it starts at QB and if you don't have a top-tier one, you don't have squat.

When I do my research around the league I see that paying a QB top dollar is often a risky and short term project. For every Mahomes, Allen and Burrow we have a Prescott and a Wilson. The teams basically put all their eggs in one basket when they pay a QB more then 20% of the salary cap. Often they have a window of a couple of seasons to win something before the salary cap restrict their chances. Is that a fair description Vers?

You also mention ‘we had a terrible QB”. I don’t like to talk about Baker because he’s not part of our organization any longer but since you open up the can I will address some of your comments on him.

To say Baker was a terrible QB is a lie. He had two good seasons, one mediocre and one season where he was mostly injured. Put things into perspective Vers. He arrived to the NFLs worst organization with a 1-31 record in their previous two seasons. He had to deal with 4 HCs in 3 years, 2 GMs and a unstable owner. Not to mention that Colin Coward and his media friends was on his back the whole time and all the drama surrounding OBJ and himself. In the end he wasn’t good enough to be our franchise QB but to say he was terrible is to be dishonest.

Baker gave us supporters hopes and good moments. Our first play off win against the Steelers was a magical moment and I will never forget our TD celebration with him, Higgins and the red carpet. We can like or dislike his personality and maybe he isn’t good enough to be a top tier QB but to say he WAS terrible is to rewrite history. I personally liked Baker. He was excellent in his interview with Colin, his commercials was funny and authentic and in his best season with us he made me feel good. That’s the memories I will take with me when thinking of Baker.

We have now committed ourself to DSW. I think nobody questions his talent and previous achievements on the field but what we don’t know so much about is the rest. I think it’s fair to have question marks on his personality, his judgement and if he has the same long term commitment as we hope. Maybe everything works out well but to give a QB with so much uncertainties and questionable character so much guaranteed money is a gamble.

I’m with you that the best teams mostly have a top tier QB and that’s probably the right way to go but just look at the Bronco’s, if they are unlucky they’re irrelevant for the next 4-5 seasons. Let’s hope we have better luck.

Getting tired of the "lie" comments for stating an opinion. I have said people are lying, but I do so when they attribute a quote to me that I never made.

Why not just talk to the other Baker guys? Why do you keep addressing me? We see things differently and that is fine w/me. However, my opinion is not going to change because you call me a liar.

Though I somewhat agree with what you are saying, your thought process about the defenses couldn't be more wrong. Let's not forget that the LARams went out and secured DB Ramsey in 2019. In 2020, the LARams had the #1 ranked defense in the NFL. It's no secret that the LARams entered 2021 with the preseason picked #1 defense and even went as far as to bolster it more by adding Vonn Miller during the season. The Rams had also added a new DC in 2021. Yes, the LARams added Stafford and they won the Super Bowl with him as their QB but to think that he's the only reason that the Rams made it to that level because he was the only difference is not totally accurate.

To be fair, the last 10 Super Bowls featured the following 13 QB's: Elites = Brady 5 times, P. Manning (2), Wilson (2), Mahomes (2), Jackson, Ryan, and Stafford - Non Elite - Kaeperneck, Newton, Foles, Goff, Garoppolo, and Burrow. That's 7 elite QB's with Jackson being a question mark at the time of the Super Bowl and 6 non-elite QB's that includes Burrow who's still on his rookie deal. I'm not so sure that elite status is what opens the Super Bowl door. It hasn't worked for Bress, Rodgers, Rivers, E. Manning, Roethlisberger, Prescott, Cousins or Watson over the last 10 years all of which could be considered elite. The QB position carries significant weight that's for sure. Being elite doesn't guarantee anything. Being non-elite doesn't count you out either.

How dare you respond to a poster with a different opinion than yours on a public debating / discussion forum !!! He knows much more football than you, just be silent and don't respond to him unless it's to say "yes sir".

An opinion isn't 100% fact.

You're entitled to whatever opinion you want but you wrote "we had a terrible QB" as a universal fact. That’s why I react. If you instead say that in your opinion BM is a bad QB and maybe follow that up with a few balanced "why's" then it's maybe not a big deal. I personally appreciate your other takes about football and the Browns in particular but when it comes to Baker you seems in my opinion to lose some objectivity and sometimes I think you goes too far. Am I totally wrong Vers?

I wasn't laughing at you. Everything you said about the qb position is true and I am behind 100%.

I was laughing at the comparison of qbs. Wilson is 33 and on the downside of career. He hasn't been the same the last couple years due to the beating his taken. The trade and the contract was terrible. Ryan is 37 and Dak is 29 and has had some injuries. Comparing that to DW who is 26 and in his prime window.

Agree, I think DW's talent coupled with our running attack, we score several more TDs than JB has scored. My fear is HC falls in love with the pass instead of running it. Our kicker has now won a game and lost a game- we will see if he stays confident. He's NEVER missed two important FG before- never is strong word.

Other posters have complained about drafted players and GM- I still trust whole current staff- lot more than ANY in last few decades. Time will tell how this year works out. Unfortunately, it seems to be another lost year for us old farts.....GO Browns!!!

Agreed. With DW we would have won these 3 games as lon as he's the same player. I said it at the seasons beginning we would only win 6-8 games. I'm sticking to that prediction.

Watson will help a lot. He is a difference maker, but Jacoby is playing well. We are not losing games because of our offense. Before the year, oober through a number out there of us scoring 17 or less. We are killing that number. It's wild how many excuses were made for Baker and now it's like we are getting bad qb play, even though he is playing better than Baker.

And we're 2-3. Whats your point, other than you hate baker, AND want to feel that you're right?

Vers overall JB is playing better than Baker but that INT. was ridiculous all he had to do was run. It had Baker written all over it. As soon as he let it go, I could see what was going to happen. He threw it right to him for Gods sake!!

I agree totally w/you on that play. I said so in the Post Game thread.

That was awful.... can't throw an INT in that situation... either make the play or throw it away...

It's on Brissett as much as it is on anybody else. Brissett is holding a rating of 87ish total and most people are happy with his play (as you seem to be). In the 4th quarter of games that are +/- 7 points, he is 23 of 37, 0 TDs and 3 INTs for a rating of 45.2... I'll leave it up to you how much of that is Brissett, how much is Stefanski, but these games are too damn competitive to have your QB crap the bed like that in the 4th quarter consistently...

His rating by quarter/and half is:
1st - 98.7
2nd - 111.5
FIRST HALF - 106.6
3rd - 75.8
4th - 46.0
SECOND HALF - 62.3

That's not going to get it done.

thank you... I've been wondering how much.of an upgrade Watson is...and now I know watson is a huge upgrade in the fourth quarter! ready to have him playing

You religiously defended Baker to the point of chastising posters for disagreeing w/you about Baker. But Baker had the the 52nd ranked QBG 4th quarter ranking since 2018. He had the worst QBR in the entire league last year in the 4th quarter. He was ranked 30th in QBR, ahead of only two rookies, in QBR in one score games last year.

Your takes are not consistent.

Baker is trash but was a number one overall pick and was being judged as a franchise qb.

Brisett is a career journeyman. I don't think they should be judged through the same lense.

No idea what your point is. I'm saying that Stefanski got the best of both compared to other coaches.

Wait until next year when he has a top flight qb.

Then let me finish this for you.

Throughout his career, Watson's ratings by Quarter/half:

1st - 103.8
2nd - 100.3
FIRST HALF - 101.9
3rd - 101.8
4th - 111.5
SECOND HALF - 107.1

So that should be what we have to look forward to. If his 4th quarter and late game numbers drop off once he starts to play here, then I think that will help a lot as to who is to blame......

I think you are exaggerating me chastising anybody about Baker... but my posts are fairly consistent. I thought a lot of Baker's late game problems were on Stefanski's play calling and game management... now Brissett's late game numbers are equally pathetic..... so until we have a QB come in here and do well in 4th quarter and end of game situations, I will continue to think the QB is a part of it but that KS is also a significant contributor to it. As I posted above, Watson's numbers in the 4th quarter are excellent, if he gets here and suddenly starts to struggle, that will help us all know what the problem is....

Who gets credit for Baker's best year and Jacoby's best year? No one?

Double standards are lame.

So is trolling everybody and trying to make everything about Baker, so this will be my last post involving Baker..

I have admitted that I like KS, that I think he is a really good HC/OC for 54 minutes... I have serious questions about his end of game play calling, we never seem to have any rhythm, and everything seems to be so damn difficult and we throw an inordinate amount of INTs in those final 4 minutes situations because we are throwing into coverage....

Kirk Cousins had very good 4th quarter numbers in MN when KS was there in 2019 as the OC.. I just haven't seen it here yet... Watson will be the best QB he has ever had in that situation, I hope Watson nails it every week and can put my doubts to bed of KS in crunch time...

Not only that, there was a defender behind him that was starting to act like he was going to pick the ball.

He was playing like that was the last play of the game.

From a football perspective, Watson was allowed in the facilities this past Monday, Oct. 10th. He can't start practicing w/the team until Monday, Nov. 14th. After that, he will be able to play in a game 3 weeks later.

We haven't discussed this at all, but I think that the Browns coaching staff and FO are facing a real dilemma. How do they get Watson ready in that 3-week period while giving Jacoby enough reps to play effectively in those three games? Once the season begins, the starting qb gets almost every rep in the practices that lead up to the game. It's not like the summer camps where reps are divvied up.

I have been thinking of how I would handle that situation if I were the HC and I can't come up w/a really good answer. You can't just throw Watson in there w/only one week of practice reps, can you? You don't want to risk losing games because you are not getting JB enough reps for two straight weeks, do you? You don't really want to see Watson sit the bench this entire year, right? [Those questions are from a football perspective, not an individual fan perspective.]

I don't know what they will do. But, we do have some very intelligent men in our FO and HC. What do you guys think?

You actually brought up some good points. I can't think of a good answer much like yourself. But one thing you can bet on is no matter which decision is made if it doesn't go absolutely perfect people will be all over Stefanski's ass about it. I do think that tab made an excellent point however. It would be hard to be giving reps to watson during the game plan portion of practice. As you well know while some may not, yes, every team has a system. What is not true however is that you use that system the same way against every opponent. You use the parts of your system that exploit your opponents weakness whatever they are. So the plays you use within your system are adjusted week to week and your players must watch a lot of film to see where and how to expose those weaknesses in using the plays that will be called. There are tendencies that will show up on film that will show you what can be exploited.

If I had to venture a guess, which is all this is, tab pretty much nailed it. The game plan portions of practices will be given to JB. Since he will be your starter you really can't afford to do that portion any differently. And while it's true that mandatory practices are limited, I also agree with you that the players are hungry to win. While I have never played on this level I think we both know to get to the NFL level a player must be hungry and compete. Even at the high school level I would do anything within the confines of the rules to be the best I could be, dedicated to my team and team mates and do everything in my power to win games. Sure, people can site examples of players who do not give their all at times, but I don't think that includes the vast majority of players and I don't see any of those types of characters on our O. No amount of practice prepares any player for the speed of the game. That has to be done in games. The main things practice accomplishes during the off season and preseason is learning the system. During the season it is used to game plan and practicing how you will be using the system against your upcoming opponent. So if people think practice will help watson be game ready in terms of the speed of the game, I believe they are mistaken. That will take getting some games under his belt. How many games? I have no idea.

I totally agree with you that Stefanksi is a good HC. We may have different reasoning at how we arrive at that conclusion but we do arrive at the same conclusion none the less. I don't believe any rational thinking person felt the team would do well with Brissett at QB. I believe most people thought the D would be carrying the O. That's not how it turned out to be. In three games Brissett has thrown 4th quarter int's but then again,, he isn't a top tier QB in the league. Never has been despite what you see on PFF. I believe if you look over his career you can easily see that Stefanski has found ways of taking advantage of his strong suits while helping to disguise his weaknesses. That's a good HC.

The team is doing slightly better than I had expected. Not from the standard of W's and L's but from the standpoint of being competitive on a weekly basis. I do think Woods is a weakness. But even then I have questions about that. Is it Woods who was telling AB before the season began he didn't need help on the DL and LB? Or is it AB's analytics telling him the positions didn't deserve to be invested in? I don't think any of us on here with the exception of maybe one poster has any insight to help answer that question. And if he does have any insight to that question, he isn't talking.

The answer to that question would go a very long way in telling me where the problem lies at this juncture.

You missed the point as per usual due to your hatred. The comment was that in 2021 the Browns averaged 25.5 PPG on their way to winning 11 regular season games. The issue was the defense was allowing 26.1 PPG. In 2021, with an injured QB, the Browns regressed to an average of 20.5 PPG with the defense improving to allowing 21.8 PPG on their way to an 8-win season. With Brissett's history, 17 PPG or less was not out of the question considering the way he had performed the last 2-years. The upside was the Browns defense had improved year over year so if Brissett upped his game the Browns might be a viable contender. The issue became that with the influx of talent into the AFC, scoring less than 26 PPG probably would net you a losing record. Through 5-weeks, the Browns are scoring 26.6 PPG but let's not forget that our team has had the third easiest schedule through the first 5-weeks. The defense is allowing 25 PPG through the first 5-weeks while facing only one top 15 QB - that is not good.

The next 6-weeks will tell a lot about this team. Can Brissett and the offense continue to put up 27 points per week with the step up in competition or will Brissett come down to his past level of play? Will the defense turn it around or is the 25 PPG showing thus far is just a preview of worse things to come? With the schedule we have over the next 6-weeks, Brissett and the offense need to maintain or improve slightly while the defense has to show massive improvement if the Browns are going to win more than they lose the next 6-weeks.

The point is and continues to be, this is a team game and to be successful, the team has to perform - not just one player. Today, that's not happening in Cleveland and that falls directly on the coaches because the talent is there.

jc

6 games into the season, and finally got to the 6th game in the season for me to go "ok, here's why DW is starting the first game eligible". normally, 2-4 would say the season is a lost cause anyway, but damn, we're only a game back for the division. right now the ravens and bengals are 3-3, and we're 2-4 with the steelers. with 6 games left when DW comes back, we can still be in the playoff hunt, nevermind the division.

today's loss against the patriots was the first time for the ENTIRETY of the football game where i said "we win this game with DW." This is why we brought him in here; to win games where the team is hellbent on shutting down the run. same thing with baker mayfield, teams want the ball in JB hands. even a rusty DW is gonna have a huge impact on defensive game planning.

Stefanski is a great offensive mind, imo. the last 2 games made it clear that we really needed a QB to take this offense over the top. im just hoping DW really gets his crap together and is able to be ON the field. at some point, teams are gonna shut the run game down. so no matter who's calling plays, you need that QB who can put the team on his back.

obviously he doesn't play defense, but we would be minimum 4-2 with DW. not gonna claim 6-0 or 5-1, but we're definitely not 2-4.

Agreed Swish. I also believe with DW we could easily be 5-1. I think he would make that much of a difference.

I don't know what our record would be w/Watson right now, but JB wasn't the problem until yesterday. On the other hand, you are never going to be a big winner w/QBs like Brissett or Baker. That's why I supported the trade. This year's going to be rough, but Watson will elevate this team and we should be contenders starting next year.

I still think Stefanski is facing a daunting task of getting Watson enough practice reps to be ready for Houston while making sure JB is getting enough reps to prepare for each of the next 3 games.

I’d load up on Watson’s reps and say a little prayer. JB would be an easy go-to if DW struggles with his rustiness.

Watson can be the QB and get reps

Last place

It's the only thing left to look forward to this season.

Panthers QB, Baker Mayfield benched for Sam Darnold. If Baker was a team player, would have sit when hurt and kept his mouth shut, he’d still be a starter in Clev this week if healthy. Now he’s riding the pine as a broken QB backup in Carolina. A learning moment for young QB’s in the NFL.

Mayfield might not be in the league next year.