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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Our LBers have been horrible.

Our play right up through the middle (DT, LB, and Safeties) has been 'suspect'. Like Swiss cheese, there are holes all over the place. The whole defense, in general, plays too soft....


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My thoughts on this have been expressed before - previously in regards the DT's - but the same holds true for the LB core: Either Berry is just godawful at drafting, because most of these players are on his watch and he put the roster together and was happy to rely on them, and somehow he put together a roster with 3 of the least talented DT's in the entire league. OR - we don't have great DT's but through coaching they are performing even further below their talent level. . . Exact same thing holds true with the LBs and with the communication issues in the secondary. I think game 5 is too early to fire anyone. But Woods seat needs to be pretty damn warm. Conversations and expectations need to be laid out - vast improvement is needed to keep his job past bye week.

IF woods is the root issue (in addition to a lack of talent) - then keeping a bad coach because you don't know who to replace him with is not a good enough reason to not make a change.

And Rish to answer the question from Post Game thread that never got answered - YES, Stefanski is responsible for how the DC and Defense perform.

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I think it can be two fold: we really devalue certain positions (DT and LB), which puts stress on the defense … but also that Woods’ coaching is a problem too.

I think the entire defensive philosophy needs revamped


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I was pretty clear. Do you have links where the organization is bashing the players? I search Twitter every day for news about the Browns. I haven't seen any quotes from the organization where they are blaming the players.

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Oh no! Not another LSU defender ... jk

So who gets wavied? JOK? ... again jk (kinda) been very disappointed in him thus far however,
(and I could care less that pff is high on him, and I'm beginng to think that they have lost their ever lovin mind this season) he takes poor angles to the ball carrier and is missing way too many tackles to be a full time LB. I thought that he needed to bulk up some for this season
.. he did not. That too is disappointing.


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Wait for it!

Here it comes............


Ready??






..........................................What's a Deion Jones?

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so... kicking the tires with a late-round pick for someone who has had 100+ tackles a year and a Pro-Bowler (minus one where he was injured)

80+ career starts, lots of athleticism, and can be cut next year if it doesn't pan out.

nice job Berry


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Currently Jones' contract carries a $13MM cap hit in 2023 or zero dead cap to us if we cut him....so all or nothing. The dude will be 28/29 next year so still in his prime, age-wise. I doubt this FO will want to pay him $13MM next year but it will be interesting to see what happens if he plays well.


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I was curious as to why Jones fell out of favor in ATL. In a preseason game I watched, they said the guy was even busting his butt on Special Teams. Here is an article from July that talks a bit about the situation.


Quote
Falcons BREAKING: Trade Candidate Deion Jones Moves to PUP

For now? It’s the start of camp … and a stint on the Physically Unable to Perform List … as more moves may be on the way.
MIKE FISHERJUL 21, 2022 5:29 PM EDT

There have been trade rumors. Even cut rumors. But first comes a Thursday move of Deion Jones … to the PUP list.

There’s no real debating the fact that the Atlanta Falcons are officially in rebuild mode after a 7-10 season in 2021.

But could part of the process of rebooting the franchise come at the cost of parting ways with Pro Bowl veteran linebacker Deion Jones?

ESPN recently released its candidates to land on the roster bubble for all 32 teams. Jones, 27, was listed as a potential victim of the chopping block later this offseason for the Falcons. Here's what the list had to say:

This is a tricky one, because Jones not being on the roster would likely come more due to a trade than a release -- but at this point, anything is possible with the 2017 Pro Bowler. His dead money (almost $19 million) would be tough for Atlanta to deal with, but it already has over $63 million in dead cap space for 2022, so it might not matter that much. To be clear, this doesn't mean Jones won't be on the team this fall -- he could be -- but rather that his overall situation with the Falcons is up in the air.

It would certainly sting for the Falcons to part ways with a longtime player like Jones. But with his four-year, $57 million deal set to expire as he becomes an unrestricted free agent in 2024, Atlanta could certainly look to trade him before the start of this season in order to add valuable draft stock or young talent for the future.


As a rookie in 2016, Jones was the league-leader in pick-sixes (two) and interception return yards (165) from his linebacker spot. Since then, he's turned himself into one of the more underrated backers in the NFL. He's started 83 of a possible 85 games in his career.

Along with being one of the fastest at his position, Jones has also remained extremely durable during his six years in the league. He's started 16 games in four out of six seasons while totaling 652 total tackles, 40 tackles-for-loss, 8.5 sacks, four forced fumbles, 44 passes defended, 11 interceptions, and five total touchdowns.

But he’s expensive. And he’s fallen out of favor. And he’s rehabbing from off-season shoulder surgery. So for now? It’s the start of camp … and a stint on the Physically Unable to Perform List … as more moves may be on the way.

https://www.si.com/nfl/falcons/news/breaking-trade-candidate-deion-jones-moves-pup-injury-rumor-cut

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I don't think it matters a whole lot who we've got at LB if the play in front of them doesn't improve. Also, I think the inability to "cut block" OL any more is part of our run defense problem. If an undersized defender can't go low to plug up a hole, his chance of successfully defending the run isn't great. They're not going to win heads up against a pulling lineman, and trying to go around opens up lanes to the side they don't choose. The league definitely doesn't make it easy to play defense. You really need to control the line of scrimmage to be successful now against the run, and our interior has been getting manhandled.

We traded with the Falcons after playing them. Maybe we can do the same with Carolina now. I have seen trade speculation around CMC and DJ Moore, but we could use Derrick Brown.


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I agree and disagree w/your takes.

I think our LBer play is more important than you say. They are bad. Terrible tacklers. Poor depth against the pass. Weak.

On the other hand, you make a great point about the cut rule and undersized defenders.

I also agree that Derrick Brown would be a nice get.

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Originally Posted by SuperBrown
Wait for it!

Here it comes............


Ready??






..........................................What's a Deion Jones?

An updated version of Deacon Jones perhaps?


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
I don't think it matters a whole lot who we've got at LB if the play in front of them doesn't improve. Also, I think the inability to "cut block" OL any more is part of our run defense problem. If an undersized defender can't go low to plug up a hole, his chance of successfully defending the run isn't great. They're not going to win heads up against a pulling lineman, and trying to go around opens up lanes to the side they don't choose. The league definitely doesn't make it easy to play defense. You really need to control the line of scrimmage to be successful now against the run, and our interior has been getting manhandled.

We traded with the Falcons after playing them. Maybe we can do the same with Carolina now. I have seen trade speculation around CMC and DJ Moore, but we could use Derrick Brown.


This is why this trade I don't think will help much as is, especially when Berry keeps going out and getting these smaller linebackers, to shed blocks from 300+ lb lineman. If you can't get the DT's to tie up blocks its going to be pointless. If you're going to keep these DT's then you should have went out and got a guy like Wagner/david size. I will say immediately Jones will help covering TE's and the underneath stuff we seem to get gashed on. I just hope he's able to come in and contribute immediately.


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That to me is it. Small fast linebackers can’t be fronted by unathletic, unstout defensive tackles. If your DTs can’t eat blocks then your smallish LBs get gobbled up by, or diverted around, 300 pound guards and tackles.
I’d wager that if we had a Suh type in the middle, JOK would look better than he has.


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Very good point. I'm going to try and address this defensive thing shortly. But, you hit on a huge part of the issues.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I agree and disagree w/your takes.

I think our LBer play is more important than you say. They are bad. Terrible tacklers. Poor depth against the pass. Weak.

On the other hand, you make a great point about the cut rule and undersized defenders.

I also agree that Derrick Brown would be a nice get.

I wasn't trying to say that LBs aren't important. I more meant that our current DTs might make prime Ray Lewis look mediocre against the running game.


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j/c...


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Really good player and a shoulder injury doesn't scare me off a cover linebacker. I think it's a great trade, low risk, very high upside.

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All Ski needs to see is theocrat Woods has put out there for three weeks in a row, then chart the trend in stats for the last three weeks (For those who need analytics) given up by the D. Put Jones out there. This not a mysterious or dramatic and suspenseful process. Might inspire Ward or Delpit and Friends. Some of them have earned a Vitamin P treatment (pine). Give him a game. You have already seen the worst that may happen.


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Originally Posted by BpG
Really good player and a shoulder injury doesn't scare me off a cover linebacker. I think it's a great trade, low risk, very high upside.

I Agree, we haven't had a LB of his caliber since the 1980's thumbsup


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The Browns LB play is bad..but the Browns play from the Safety position is even worse...

The defensive scheme Woods is attempting to use is not suited for any NFL team.

This defense is a product of the best talent the Browns analytics department could come up with.

Analytics ownership, analytics management, analytics coaching staff, defensive players picked using analytics ... Three years under complete analytics priorities and what we see on the field are the results of "the Browns great analytics experiment".





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Quote
The defensive scheme Woods is attempting to use is not suited for any NFL team.

You might want to rethink that. This is from the 2020 season.



Quote
Like most of the rest of the NFL, the Browns used a base defense that had just two LBs on the field. The 4-2-5 or even the 4-1-6 as a base formation was the dominant deployment. Those two made up over half of the total defensive snaps in the NFL in 2020.

You can read the full article here. It has a neat chart that is helpful:


https://brownswire.usatoday.com/202...se-no-more-4-3-joe-woods-lb-snap-counts/

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Quote
The defensive scheme Woods is attempting to use is not suited for any NFL team.

You might want to rethink that. This is from the 2020 season.



Quote
Like most of the rest of the NFL, the Browns used a base defense that had just two LBs on the field. The 4-2-5 or even the 4-1-6 as a base formation was the dominant deployment. Those two made up over half of the total defensive snaps in the NFL in 2020.

You can read the full article here. It has a neat chart that is helpful:


https://brownswire.usatoday.com/202...se-no-more-4-3-joe-woods-lb-snap-counts/


OLD ARTICLE based on OLD information from the 2020 season, after the Browns lost to the Chiefs in the playoffs, Jan. 17, 2021.

The first paragraph lays out the future plan the Browns set after the playoff season. The first paragraph reads

Quote
One of the decisions Andrew Berry, Kevin Stefanski and the Browns staff made in the past offseason was to deliberately spend less resources at the linebacker position.



Spending less resources on the LB position...how's that working out for the Browns..?

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Old article? Are you suggesting that teams are going away from that defense? If anything, the numbers are probably higher. It's a trend, mac. LMAO......keep trying.

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Article is based on the 2020 season...OLD INFO..a fluff article written after the Brown lost in the playoffs.

The only relevant information is this...

Quote
One of the decisions Andrew Berry, Kevin Stefanski and the Browns staff made in the past offseason was to deliberately spend less resources at the linebacker position.

Obviously a decision based on analytics.

Spending less 'resources' on the LB position...how is that trend working out for the Browns?




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Okay, don't rethink your position and stick your take that: "the defensive scheme Woods is attempting to use is not suited for any NFL team," despite evidence to the contrary. The truth is not important to you.

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Based on the this year's evidence evidence and fact based assessment of Woods defensive coaching ability and his ability to build a scheme around available talent combined with his play calling on game day - I'd say there is a strong suggestion hat Wood's scheme is not fit for the NFL.

I don't know if that is mostly player talent - in which case maybe the spot light has to fall on Berry.

I don't know if that's lack of ability to coach, teach and get players playing up to or above their natural ability.

I don't know if it's effort and desire - something alluded to in a few posts recently - in which case it is Stefanski, Woods and every coach on the team.

Last edited by mgh888; 10/20/22 09:13 AM.

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This is from the Vic Fangio thread that I posted earlier and is still on the first page of this forum. I think it's hard to argue that Woods' scheme is not suited for the NFL.


Quote
Playing “Six Degrees of Vic,” the coach and/or defensive coordinator of six teams have a direct connection to Fangio: Coaches Brandon Staley of the Los Angeles Chargers (worked for Fangio in Chicago and the Broncos) and Robert Saleh of the New York Jets (Houston) and four defensive coordinators — the Broncos’ Ejiro Evero (San Francisco), Minnesota’s Ed Donatell (San Francisco, Chicago and the Broncos), Seattle’s Clint Hurtt (Chicago) and Detroit’s Aaron Glenn (played for Fangio in Houston).

A second degree produces three more coordinators: Green Bay’s Joe Barry (worked for Staley with the Los Angeles Rams) and two coaches who worked under Saleh with the 49ers — Cleveland’s Joe Woods and the 49ers’ DeMeco Ryans.

Add it up and that is 28.1% of the league.

“It’s a copy-cat league and when you have success, people look at it,” said Tony Dungy, the Pro Football Hall of Fame coach who works for NBC. “(Coaches) study tape and they take the good things and they take the principles from it. Coach Fangio has had success with a number of franchises and those principles are good.”

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I'm sure somewhere in the annals of NFL history - there was a "worst defensive coordinator ever" - his scheme might have been a 3-4, 4-3, Cover 2 ... all those "schemes" in general have defensive coordinators who run "the same" defensive scheme but make it successful .... this idea that WOODS DEFENSE is good because others use a scheme that has a similar name for it is hog-wash. And of course you won't listen to a 12 minute audio that someone poster where a former MVP of the NFL tells you that the defense is and has been crap and easy to read/pick apart ... because you don't listen to alternate views. You block them and ridicule them in snide side swipes.


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Originally Posted by mgh888
Based on the this year's evidence evidence and fact based assessment of Woods defensive coaching ability and his ability to build a scheme around available talent combined with his play calling on game day - I'd say there is a strong suggestion hat Wood's scheme is not fit for the NFL.

I don't know if that is mostly player talent - in which case maybe the spot light has to fall on Berry.

I don't know if that's lack of ability to coach, teach and get players playing up to or above their natural ability.

I don't know if it's effort and desire - something alluded to in a few posts recently - in which case it is Stefanski, Woods and every coach on the team.

I believe what I say following reinforces your post:
Is it the 'scheme' itself or is it the application of, or adherence to the 'scheme' that is the issue?


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It's the application and subtleties - and that comes from coaching.

IN the audio link someone posted with Warner commenting on the Brown's D - he highlighted one example, one play - with the defensive scheme, man coverage ... the concept was fine, but the CB's were lined up 7 yards off the line (they don't do that if they aren't coached to do that - or even if they are not-coached to not-do that) .... result was an easy completion.

Invariably it is the little things and the coach that is instilling and implementing the scheme rather than than the "scheme" itself. I would hazard a guess that the different DC's implementing the 'same' scheme has literally hundreds of variables based on his ability to coach, adapt to player ability/talent/injuries, adjustment etc.

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It's actually quite simple. You can give teachers the same text books to teach their students. Some teachers get much better results than others using the exact same text books. The problem isn't the content of the books themselves. It's the lack of ability some teachers have at getting their students to absorb and apply the contents of the text book. That includes but is not limited to how they translate the information when addressing their students, if they can motivate their students and the mind frame in which they go about teaching them.


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