DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Berry's Drafts

Steve - what would be interesting in the current debates going on regards to the GM's and players - do you have the ability to see the Browns roster 2022 - what their grades are and then we can assign which GM was responsible for bringing them in? If it's too long of a project, don't worry.

In "Browns News" I just posted the entire roster that's on PFF with the year they were drafted and from what college. It would be fairly simple to associate the GM with the year drafted.

Yep. Waxed lyrical is putting it lightly. There's always (and was) the pat on the head to any fan that is too stupid to see it his way, that's my favorite.

He's crafty. I'll give him that. If you read above, it's written like he was the only one that thought Belichick would be good and the rest of us were idiots. 🤣

As I said in another post on this subject, if Watson has not gotten us to a SB then the trade was a bad one. We will have to give it 3 years to see, but losing the draft picks is the issue.

I started - but Sashi has MG & Njoku. Dorsey has the obvious ones Chubb, Teller, Greedy, Taki + Corbett. The rest is Berry. The very best performing players are not Berry - other than the team is Berry's.

Not arguing w/you or trying to change your mind, but I want to expound on my position. There is no sure trade or draft pick that will get you a Super Bowl. Look at how much teams gave up to acquire guys like Wentz, Goff, RGIII, Bradford, etc. Even Trubisky earned quite the haul. How did those trades work out? The Rams traded for Stafford and that worked well enough to put them over the top and they won a Super Bowl. The Rams are not doing so hot this year, though. I'm not sure how to evaluate that trade. Brady went to TB in FA, but that was like a miracle in how it worked out.

Who else could have Berry traded for? Reportedly, he was interested in Wilson. Glad that didn't work out. Denver is on the hook for 7 years and they gave up a ton to get a cooked Russ. I think they've scored fewer points than any team in the league. Russ was good at one point, but he has been pretty bad the last 2 years and for 5 games this year. I soured on him after he threw his o-linemen under the bus and then put out a list of teams he would accept a trade to. So, who else would we get? There was no one in the draft worth trading for. Matt Ryan? Sign Mariotta?

I think people forget that there were double digit teams that were interested in Watson and five of them agreed to Houston's demands. Indy was ruled out because they were in the same division. Berry was able to get the job done. Again, that does not guarantee anything. However, at least we have a chance now. We had no chance before the trade. I seriously doubt that Baker will even be a starter next year. Berry is trying his best and I [not asking you to] give him credit for making the move.

Here you are.........

SCALE:
100 - 90 = Elite level of play
85-89 = Pro Bowl level of play
84-70 = Starter level of play
69-60 = Backup level of play
59-0 = Replaceable level of play

DRAFTED BY GM WITH CURRENT PFF GRADE

FARMER 2014-2015
Drafted by Farmer w/current PFF Grade
2014 - G - Bitonio - Nevada - 85.7 - 1st of 75

SACHI BROWN 2016-2017
Drafted by Sashi Brown w/current PFF Grade
2017 - Edge - Garrett - Texas A&M - 93.1 - 1st of 115
2017 - TE - Njoku - Miami, FL - 81.6 - 3rd of 67

DORSEY 2017 - 2019
Drafted by Dorsey w/current PFF Grade
2018 - CB - Ward - Ohio St - 39.8 - 102nd of 108
2018 - RB - Chubb - Georgia - 88.4 - 1st of 62
2019 - CB - Williams - LSU - 50.7 - NR
2019 - LB - Takitaki - BYU - 71.1 - 18th of 80
Undrafted by Dorsey w/current PFF Grade
2018 - TE - Brown - Oregon - 62.6 - 29th of 67
2019 - RB - Johnson - South Florida - 63.0 - NR
Traded for by Dorsey w/current PFF Grade
2019 - G - Teller - Virginia Tech - 85.3 - 2nd of 75
Waiver P/U's by Dorsey w/current PFF Grade
2019 - RB - Hunt - Toledo - 63.6 - 38th of 62

BERRY 2020 - current
Drafted by Berry w/current PFF Grade
2020 - OT - Wills - Alabama - 66.8 - 43rd of 76
2020 - WR - DPJ - Michigan - 66.6 - 53rd of 110
2020 - S - Delpit - LSU - 54.2 - 69th of 87
2020 - TE - Bryant - Florida Atlantic - 50.7 - 60th of 67
2020 - LB - Phillips - LSU - 37.3 - 77th of 80
2020 - DT - Elliott - Missouri - 33.2 - 117th of 121
2021 - LB - Fields - West Virginia - 79.9 - NR
2021 - OT - Hudson - Cincinnati - 68.8 - 34th of 76
2021 - CB - Newsome - Northwestern - 63.2 - 54th of 108
2021 - LB - JOK - Notre Dame - 60.7 - 45th of 80
2021 - WR - Felton - UCLA - 56.1 - NR
2021 - WR - Schwartz - Auburn - 49.3 - NR
2021 - DT - Togiai - Ohio St - 29.9 - 120th of 121
2022 - CB - Emerson - Mississippi St - 74.9 - 14th of 108
2022 - S - Bell - West FL Argonauts - 64.4 - NR
2022 - WR - Woods II - Oklahoma - 64.4 - NR
2022 - K - York - LSU - 57.1 - 33rd of 39
2022 - Edge - Thomas - Oklahoma - 51.5 - NR
2022 - WR - Bell - Purdue - 51.3 - 108th of 110
2022 - DT - Winfrey - Oklahoma - 43.0 - 106th of 121
2022 - Edge - Wright - UAB - 43.0 - 113th of 115 [/color]
Traded for by Berry w/current PFF Grade
2020 - S - Harrison - Alabama - 51.5 - NR
2022 - WR - Cooper - Alabama - 75.1 - 24th of 110
2022 - Edge - Winovich - Michigan - 42.4 - NR
FA's by Berry w/current PFF Grade
2020 - OT - Conklin - Michigan St - 71.7 - 21st of 76
Undrafted 2020 - CB - Green - Oklahoma St - 29.0 - NR
2021 - Edge - Clowney - S Carolins - 88.8 - 9th of 115
2021 - LB - Walker - Northwestern - 82.7 - 5th of 80
2021 - S - Johnson - Boston Coll - 59.3 - 55th of 87
2022 - P - Bojorquez - New Mexico - 77.5 - 5th of 32
2022 - C - Pocic - LSU - 74.6 - 3rd of 37
2022 - QB - Brissett - N Carolina St - 74.2 - 10th of 36
2022 - Edge - Rochell - Notre Dame - 52.7 - 100th of 115
2022 - DT - Bryan - Florida - 50.7 - 93rd of 121
Waiver P/U's by Berry w/current PFF Grade
2020 - OT - Dunn - Maryland - 51.2 - NR
2021 - G - Froholdt -Arkansas - 75.0 - NR
2021 - TE - Forristall - Alabama - 59.7 - NR
2022 - LB - Kunaszyk - California - 74.6 - NR
2022 - OT - Haeg - N Dakota St - 60.0 - NR
2022 - TE - James - Penn St - 42.2 - NR

NR = Not Ranked due to not having snap minimum

SCALE:
100 - 90 = Elite level of play
85-89 = Pro Bowl level of play
84-70 = Starter level of play
69-60 = Backup level of play
59-0 = Replaceable level of play

I have a question about our D. I understand there may be a lack of talent at some of our positions i.e. DT and Lb. Is it possible that with a different scheme it would make some of our other players better especially in the secondary? Just a thought.

Thanks .. You have more patience than I do !

Berry has a lot of green - not good... but some of that might be just how the team seems to be in a little bit of a malaise and Woods/Defense issues. Also it's early to pass a final judgement or grade.

Homewood -- Scheme and coaching must be playing a significant part. As someone pointed out the other day JJ3 was a 'stud' for 2 out of 3 years in LA for the Rams ... he's now playing poorly for us.

I agree but would say IMO that by the time you reach year-3 with the team or you're a FA acquisition, you shouldn't be in the green. In this case, anyone 2020 or before or a FA signing shouldn't be in the green. These guys are supposed to be professionals. They are to work on their craft to improve it each and every day. If the lightbulb hasn't come on by year-3 or you come here as a FA and not perform, then it's probably not going to come on.

So, what players do we have in year-3 plus or a FA acquisition performing in the green?

2021 - FA - S - Johnson - 59.3
2020 - Drafted - S - Delpit - 54.2
2022 - FA - Edge - Rochell - 52.7
2020 - Traded - S - Harrison - 51.5
2020 - Waiver - OT - Dunn - 51.2
2022 - FA - DT - Bryan - 50.7
2019 - Drafted - CB - Williams - 50.7
2020 - Drafted - TE - Bryant - 50.7
2022 - Waiver - TE - James - 42.2
2020 - Drafted - LB - Phillips - 37.3
2020 - Drafted - DT - Elliott - 33.2
2018 - Drafted - CB - Ward - 39.8

These guys should not be performing on the field at this level.

Ward’s grade is an embarassment

I have not noticed Wills this year. I think we all know that when you don't notice a OL player it's normally a good sign. I liked his play as a rookie - last year he played thru injury. This year he appears to be playing well. I'd be interested in his run block grades ... but to be honest, with Bitonio, Teller and Conklin all considered VG or Excellent in the run game, I don't need Wills to be a stud run blocker too.

And this right here highlights the folly of subjective grading. Things like PFF are fun toys, but can you REALLY trust that whomever is doing the grading knows what they are grading?
It's a GIGO system, as is this pass rush win rate metric. You're taking it at face value that whomever came up with these numbers not only know what they're doing, and know what the player was supposed to be doing, but actually also paid attention to every snap well enough to grade things accurately.... and the quoted disparity shows that this is not the case. There is a disconnect.

Wills has steadily improved as the year has progressed. He's put together several very good games in a row. I don't think we are going to have to look for a new LT. Thus, I would say this is a good pick by Berry.

As opposed to what? People arbitrarily coming to conclusion about a player because holding was called on a guy a few times or they performed poorly on a play and the color guy called his name? Yes, I can trust a developed system to provide better picture than a fan waxing poetic on a player. Is it mistake-free? Obviously not. But when multiple people are participants grading a game or player on a consistent system, I'll take that over the alternative. And these systems inevitably evolve as opposed to someone taking a stand on a gut-feeling.

The guys that we have on D that aren't playing well were all rated pretty good coming out of college with the exception of the DT we have. Ward, Delpit, Jok, Phillips, Williams, to name some and JJ3 was good with the Rams. Is it AB's fault they're not playing well? I know Ward was drafted by Dorsey.

Currently, Wills is grading out at a "backup level" performance according to PFF after 6-games which by the way, takes into account his pass blocking. More importantly though, two of the games this season, he was playing against a lessor talent with last year's sack leader JJ Watts PIT and Bosa LAC 2021 10.5 sacks both missing their games against the Browns. With the likes of a Von Miller on the horizon, we might get a better picture after these next 5 games. Just as it's a serious defensive problem for the Browns when a Clowney or Garrett misses a game, it has an equal bearing on opponents when the lose a Watts or Bosa type against us. Judgement should be reserved until we see how he responds to upper tier competition before we give him a pass going forward.

I am trying to find on the PPF site where the numbered score correlates to a label such as backup, starter, etc.. I've looked up the web page on how they grade but can't see where this component is listed. Is this only viewable for subscribers?

No, it's available on google but here it is for your viewing pleasure:

SCALE:
100 - 90 = Elite level of play
85-89 = Pro Bowl level of play
84-70 = Starter level of play
69-60 = Backup level of play
59-0 = Replaceable level of play

Google?

I guess what I'm asking is .....is this a formal PFF thing or a labeling scale someone/some website made up to coincide somehow with the numbers?

I have always seen PFF use a color coded system to interpret a player's PFF grade. This may be an update to an older system that may have been used to interpret PFF grades.

This year, Jedrick Wills has an overall PFF grade of 66.8, a pass block grade of 69.0 and run block grade of 63.1.

Interpreting those grades by the PFF color code system, Wills' overall grade is above average, pass block is above average and rub block is average.

Here is an old example, but it shows how PFF color codes are to be interpreted.

In order words, I would be surprised (but not shocked) that PFF would label this way although they did something like this color coding for "great" to "bad"

Wills overall score is 66.8. However, I don't think PFF would say he is a "backup" simply by his score but maybe they are now.

Yes! That is what I was thinking about.

We miss Goodson and Malcolm Smith

Here is an article that explains the grading. I have a subscription, so I am able to click on the "Read more..." parts. Not sure if you guys will be able to. I'll leave a link just in case.


How PFF grades all positions at the NCAA and NFL levels

By PFF.com
Jul 16, 2019
During the NFL season, our team of 400-plus staff spend around 20,000 man-hours of work to grade and analyze every play of the NFL season, from the kickoff in the Hall of Fame game to the final play of the Super Bowl.

Memories can deceive, and highlights by their nature miss out on the vast majority of a player’s game, but PFF covers every player on every play of every game to give you the most comprehensive analysis of player performance you can find anywhere. Below is a series of articles, written by Senior Analyst Steve Palazzolo, detailing the ins and outs of our groundbreaking grading system.

HOW WE GRADE QUARTERBACK PLAY


The PFF grading system is all about isolating the quarterback’s performance on a given play. We bring context to every throw, with a focus on timing, decision-making, accuracy and much more. Raw passing stats are often a gauge of the passing offense, and pass defense, as a whole, the PFF system is measuring the quarterback’s contribution to that production. Read more…

HOW WE GRADE RUNNING BACKS


The PFF grading system isolates the runner’s role on each carry, separating the work he does from that of his blockers. Expectations change given the run concept, down and distance, quality of run blocking and number of defenders in the box, and the raw grades will be adjusted on each play. Many runs will receive neutral or expected grades depending on opportunity or quality of blocking on the play, and our system accounts for those variations. Read more…

HOW WE GRADE RECEIVERS


The PFF grading system isolates the targeted receiver’s role on every pass attempt. Credit is given for plays in which the receiver adds value to the offense, especially when it’s above and beyond what was called for schematically. Read more…

HOW WE GRADE RUN BLOCKING


The PFF grading system isolates the role of each run-blocker on every running play. Blockers can earn positives for creating movement or winning their gap, while negative grades are assigned for poor blocks, with varying levels of downgrades within the system. There are many blocks that fall into the “expected” category and will receive a neutral grade, as both the run-blocker and defender end up in either a stalemate or a situation where the play calls for both players to achieve a similar result. Read more…

HOW WE GRADE PASS PROTECTION


The PFF grading system isolates the role of each pass-blocker with an emphasis on avoiding negative plays. In a “fault-based” system, the best pass protectors are expected to avoid losses, and each play is assigned a different level of difficulty or expectation based on factors such as down and distance and dropback depth of the quarterback (passing concept). A blocker who does his job will receive a fraction of a positive grade depending on the situation, using those previously listed parameters. Read more…

HOW WE GRADE RUN DEFENSE


The PFF grading system isolates the play of each run defender on every play. Good run defenders will disrupt and finish plays while playing with sound gap control and discipline. This should all shine through in the PFF system which looks to add proper context to the execution of each play. Read more…

HOW WE GRADE PASS-RUSHERS


The PFF grading system isolates the role of each pass-rusher, with an emphasis on creating positive plays. In a “credit-based” system, the best pass-rushers are expected to win at a high rate, and each play is assigned a different level of difficulty or expectation based on factors such as down and distance and dropback depth of the quarterback (passing concept). A rusher who fails to win or make an impact on a play will receive a fraction of a negative grade depending on the situation, using those previously listed parameters. Read more…

HOW WE GRADE COVERAGE


The PFF grading system is target-driven at the coverage level, crediting or deducting from all players involved either at the catch point or after the catch. Players away from the catch point will receive grading adjustments based on down and distance and other situational expectations. Read more…


https://www.pff.com/news/pro-how-pff-grades-all-positions-at-the-ncaa-and-nfl-levels

One other thing to note is that Wills grade has increased as the year as progressed. Similarly, Bitonio and Njoku had bad grades after week one and some jumped to conclusions.

I think PFF is a tool that far surpasses a fan saying this guy sucks or this guy is the best qb since Joe Montana. I also think that using Advanced Stats like Next Gen stats and some of the other sites that I have posted on here help. Along w/those, watching guys like Burns, Cosell, etc break down film is very helpful. It's best to use the combination of these sources if you are really interested in the truth and not just using one source to prove one's opinion on a player or players.

Yep, I have a subscription as well. I think what Memphis was getting at was, where does PFF specifically state how to interpret the grading scale as Steve had mentioned, i.e.,starter level, back-up, replacement level etc..

I believe, but could be wrong, PFF once used the scale Steve posted (maybe in 2014 year range) but somewhere along the way it was updated using the color coded system.

Ahh, my bad.

I searched for that scale on PFF earlier this year and could not find it on the site. I've seen reporters use it in articles. When I am looking at the grades, I tend to focus more on how the player compares w/the guys at his position. For example, Bitonio is the #1 ranked guard and Teller is 3rd overall out of 75 ranked guards. Meanwhile, Jacob Phillips is 77th out of 80 graded players. I think you look at similarly, rather than a grading system that looks much like an A, B, C, D, or F report card.

I want to reiterate this. These Advanced Stat sites are awesome. I love Next Gen Stats. Here is another one that I use frequently. https://www.playerprofiler.com/
There are other sites that are helpful as well.

Players led by two bottom 20 QB's since they entered the league almost never look good. This evaluation really begins and ends with Watson's return.

Not sure how you can call out the 2022 draft without talking about acquiring a proven franchise QB with our tops picks?

I trust them to a certain extent. Half the time I see them and think "so what, we're 2-3" lol. I think it goes beyond trust and creeps into "value". Some of these advanced stats over the last few years have very little value to me. Even if a metric is trustworthy, it's dropped in a tweet from someone trying to support a certain side of an opinion. Cherry picking stats that support their POV. Stats that don't necessarily support that player's value, role or performance within the team environment.

PFF stats for instance:

Two QBs could be tied for 1st place, both with the exact same stats... Each has 5 INTs... One has engineered 5 game-winning drives despite his mistakes. The other has throws 5 INTs with the game on the line and his team is 0-5. Wouldn't their overall PFF grade be exactly the same?

I like these new stats, more than anything else, because they challenge narrative (As Memphis said above). However, they're certainly not a be all /end all.

In short, no.

Cool. I'll look into a deeper explanation. I thought these were simply snap grades that added weight for difficulty. I didn't think there were considerations for time of game and situations.

Berry Didn't Draft Ward

The best players on this roster were brought in by Dorsey
Berry has drafted next to none impact players.
His 1st 2 draft classes aren't really contributing other
Than Wills. And his draft picks from 2022 aren't really
Making many plays on the field.
He is the worst GM in the North.

Based on the facts and posts Steve put together - it's hard to argue that Berry has not drafted well. Whether he is the worst GM in the North, I have no clue. I don't study the other teams drafts or know who their GM's are.

he was the idiot who gave him 100m though

Dorsey sucked ass with regard to the draft, please. With a treasure trove of picks - what's left:

Ward - good, until this year
Chubb - great
Taki - meh
Williams -meh

He blew the 1st overall pick and most important pick in this franchise's history by drafting Mayfield over Josh Allen ("because he is a leader of men" - lol, can't make that [censored] up).
He traded a 1st rounder, Peppers, and a 4th for the ultimate Diva wide receiver - BlowBJ.

He hired Freddie Kitchens.

The Doof sucked, plain and simple.