DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Joe Woods and the Defense

GM said something at the conclusion of the Fire Joe Woods thread about simplifying the scheme. I've been thinking about that for a couple of weeks now. I also want to touch on some other points.

I have heard that our D doesn't play w/any fire and we need a more passionate coach. I call hog-wash. I had good coaches and bad coaches. I had calm coaches and rabid coaches. Screamers and schemers. One even put his hands on many of us. In my case, it was around my neck. What I never needed was someone to motivate me to play my hardest or w/passion. If you need a coach to tell you to play hard and w/passion, you suck!

I have heard that our schemes suck. I look at the people saying those things and wonder how the hell would that person know? I've looked at the scheme closely after the breakdowns in game one and I really don't see anything glaring.

I think there are a couple of things worth examining. There is no doubt that we often have guys out of position at times. Too many easy plays. There is also no doubt that we often have guys in position and they fail to make the play.

I think we might have some really dumb players. I see them looking around and at each other. It even happened last week. Thus, I have to ask is our scheme too complicated for them and does Woods need to simplify things? I'd say that is a legit question and it might help us perform better. I am not saying that our scheme is too complicated w/any certainty. I am saying that the possibility exists.

The second point bugs me. We have too many guys missing tackles and taking bad angles to the ball. That's on them. If I were the DC, I would seriously consider benching a couple of these guys. Grant Delpit would be first on my list. I would consider giving D'Anthony Bell a shot because Harrison is another guy who doesn't play smart. Jacob Phillips would also be benched. Of course, I think Jones is going to replace him anyway this week. I'm just pointing out that the dude is pretty bad. And seriously......JOK needs to step up. I don't like any of our DTs, so benching one of them won't mean much because who would replace him/them?

To conclude, I think simplifying the scheme and making some personnel decisions are at least worth examining.

Our Defense as it presently is:



As Quincy Carrier says, our defense is Welcome to Walmart!

Another point that has been obvious for most of the year is that we have way too many plays where we get absolutely no pressure on the QB. Myles is getting double and even triple teamed on many plays. Most in the NFL. Despite that, the rest of our line is not generating pressure. Of course, Clowney sitting out is magnifying this problem. This is putting added pressure on our secondary. Neither of our safeties are great at providing deep help. Both are better when playing closer to the LOS. JJ makes some plays, but Delpit is perhaps the worst I have seen in regards to play recognition. He is often standing around on slower developing passing routes. I assume he isn't sure what he sees. Our LBers are not very good at getting the proper depth to help the secondary on the intermediate routes. This is a multi-functional problem, but much of it starts w/our DL not applying pressure on the qb. I am not just talking sacks. I'm including getting pressure on the qb and making him uncomfortable and/or making him speed up his reads.

Someone asked me after the Jets game as to what I thought was wrong w/the D. I said I would try and pay close enough attention to see what I could come up with. My first post and this last one explain a lot of what I've seen. There's more, but maybe it could spike some actual football conversation????

j/c...

Some data.

Yeah, I talked about the man coverage thing in another thread. Playing Cover 1 can help in some areas, but is way more risky. Be careful what you wish for.

Also, I think maxbrown is misinformed.

I thought it was more like "Can I see your receipt please?" as your walking out.

We finally have an identity on offense but we don't have one on defense. We blitz, then we don't, we play man and we don't, we bring safeties down and we don't.

I agree with simplifying the scheme, let them get good at one thing, what that is, who knows we have man coverage corners running cover 3 on a regular basis, but start somewhere before we are changing every play. Have to crawl before you can run.

Draft elite athletes at corner and run zone, I just don't get what we are doing. Ward should be following guys and doesn't. Lots of things to hate.


Never would have lost the Jets game if they had mirrored Ward on Wilson.

Myles Garret and Clowney are the ones mostly applying the pressure.

When is the next players only meeting?

I heard John Johnson was calling out players who aren't bought in. Guys who "can't wait to get out of the building". Suggesting that some players aren't giving their all. That's a bad situation to have in a locker room. Dudes need benched.

What is the identity on offense that they finally have?

Run the ball, then stop running when you should still be doing so, then turn it over at the end of game when you still have a chance!!

I think the Browns Identity on O. has been consistent for the past almost 3 years, even when Gregg Williams was around.

I. Blow the first opportunity, (drive), to put the game away late in the game by failing on the initial possession.((initial LaTE Game posesion )) (The first time you're put in position to win it/ take the game over late in the 2nd half.)

2 Inability to get a decent drive after given a turnover by your defense.

3. Don't make sure to at least get points (a.k.a. field goal) on a drive deep into opp. territory especially in the first half
.
4. Unprepared to complete a pass if the line of scrimmage is inside the red zone.

5. Thank God the running game is kick a:' enough to almost disguise some of the other flaws.

Throw those are good points and hard to argue with all joking aside.

Is there any way you guys will allow the topic to stay on track? The defensive coaching is brought up on all kinds of threads, like the Berry Draft picks thread. And now, in a thread about defensive coaching, you guys make ridiculous points about the offense.

j/c:



Full interview here:
https://www.audacy.com/923thefan/sp...browns-defense-looks-very-easy-to-attack

Is that considered fact or opinion ? I ask that because someone just dismissed someone's opinion because it wasn't "fact" ....

I posted this in response to posts in another thread. Apparently the board police aren't happy so I am reposting here.

""Based on the this year's evidence and fact based assessment of Woods defensive coaching ability and his ability to build a scheme around available talent combined with his play calling on game day - I'd say there is a strong suggestion hat Wood's scheme is not fit for the NFL.

I don't know if that is mostly player talent - in which case maybe the spot light has to fall on Berry.

I don't know if that's lack of ability to coach, teach and get players playing up to or above their natural ability.

I don't know if it's effort and desire - something alluded to in a few posts recently - in which case it is Stefanski, Woods and every coach on the team.""


I guess I should add - that the 'fact based poster' claimed we have too many plays with no pressure on the QB - when in fact analysis apparently (Jake Burns) shows that we do in fact get pressure on the QB at a rate 5th best in the NFL. The question is - when and how do we get the pressure - we probably aren't getting consistent pressure with bringing only 4 - our DT's negate the probability that's going to be successful. And to other's points about Woods lack of mixing things up - do we only ever blitz with 1 extra guy (hence seeing a lot of Cover 1?) - that would put us into the somewhat predictable category allowing an opposing QB to quickly decide to avoid the middle (where there is extra safety help) and look for corner and out routes as his outlet. jmo.

I can't handle listening to talk radio. Can someone summarize what Warner said, please? Does he think our defensive problems are due to poor scheme and/or coaching? Thanks.

YES

j/c...

Browns: It is time for Kevin Stefanski to be the boss

Cory Kinnan
October 16, 2022 4:36 pm ET

We are now six weeks into the season, and the Cleveland Browns are still making the same mistakes they made in Week 1. While the Browns do not want to make midseason changes to their coaching staff according to The OBR’s Brad Stainbrook, it is time for Kevin Stefanski to make the tough decisions a boss has to make.

There is little shot Stefanski gets fired as the offensive side of the football has been a bright spot (outside of today’s lemon of a game against the New England Patriots). Especially considering he is working with a journeyman backup quarterback who is starting to look like one again.

However, at the end of the day, his staff is a reflection of him. And while defensive coordinator Joe Woods and special teams coordinator Mike Priefer are personal friends of Stefanski, this train is too far off the rails to attempt to redeem.

Coming into this game against the Patriots, the Cleveland defense ranked dead last in DVOA, making them the least efficient defense in the league. They entered 16th against the pass and 32nd against the run.

Those numbers will not be trending up as the Woods-led defense allowed a fourth round rookie in Bailey Zappe to drop over 300 yards passing on them. They also allowed over 100 yards rushing again, which has become too consistent of a theme for this unit.

There are no more excuses left out there for Woods. He had his unit firing as a top-10 unit at the end of last season, but this type of regression and effort is nothing but a reflection of the man guiding them. The bye week is two weeks away for the Browns, but with back-to-back games against division rivals that could save the season in Cleveland, they have no margin for error.

The same goes for Priefer’s special teams units as they managed to produce two costly mishaps at the end of the game when Cleveland still had a chance to fight back. An onside kick where A.J. Green touched the ball while out of bounds that would have been otherwise recovered by the Browns, then a muffed punt where Green once again vacated the gunner and allowed them to crowd punt returner Chester Rogers’ space.

Pile these on top of crucial missed kicks, poorly downed punts that could have rolled inside the five-yard line, and a blown onside kick in Week 2, these Priefer-led units are too prone to mistakes.

Again, the Browns have a back-to-back stretch against AFC North rivals, two teams that have shown vulnerability. However, the Browns need something to change, something to ignite a spark in this team. With this thin of a margin for error, there is little reason to continue to run it back with the current arrangement.

It is time for Stefanski to do the most difficult part of his job and fire his friends.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/10/16/browns-kevin-stefanski-boss-2022/

I think things are looking bleak for Woods and Priefer, although I am not sure how missed kicks are the latter's fault. LOL

I know the fans and media have the microwave mentality, but who is available to replace them? Fangio might be available and he has had a ton of success as a DC. He is pretty crusty and outspoken, though. Will that mesh w/what the FO [Depo and Berry] want? I'd hire him, but what if he doesn't want to come here because he sees the same talent issues that I see? We have no one on the staff w/a resume that says they should be the team's DC.

Everyone is saying this is a throwaway season. I don't necessarily agree w/that, but is firing those two guys going to make us a Super Bowl contender this year? I could be wrong and this is just an opinion, but it seems like it would be wiser to make these moves at the end of the season when there are more--and better--candidates available.

As I said the other day. Woods needs to simplify things. Now your hearing it from his own mouth. Thanks for listening Joe

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...ong-were-underperforming-as-a-whole.html

Thanks for the article. Lot's to unpack. I'll start w/Woods saying Delpit sees the field well. He certainly knows about this much more than the likes of me, but my observations paint a completely different picture. I can't remember too many guys who seem slower to react to plays developing on the field.

One more thing............JJ needs to shut his mouth about his teammates. I brought this up in the other forum. He can say those things behind closed doors, but you NEVER question your teammates while speaking to the media. I'm hoping the Browns don't bring him and his big mouth back next year.

So, now that Bitonio and Cooper have come out publicly (in addition to JJ), are you calling for them to be kicked off the team as you have Mayfield and now JJ? Maybe, this is a HC issue that has been festering in the locker room that guys like you and many others just turn your face away and pretend it isn't happening. Maybe if it was addressed last year when the then leader of the team brought the concern forward the Browns wouldn't be dealing with it still today. Instead, you chastised Mayfield and now JJ for not only questioning their teammates but actually leaders that are going public because we have a HC and FO that are obviously ignoring the issue and it's effecting the results on the field. So, tell me - when can we expect your post campaigning for the immediate release of Bitonio and Cooper?

Another thought from GM's article.

To be fair, the Browns have had some key guys miss time w/injuries. Clowney, Myles, Ward, and Walker. All those guys are experienced vets and they come from all three levels of the defense. This has put a lot more responsibility on young, inexperienced guys. Other than perhaps Emerson, those young players haven't looked very good.

I was wondering when the injury excuse would get posted this year. Though it may have validity, it wasn't acceptable on any level last year for the performance of those playing so it shouldn't this year either. That's being fair, not when you decide.

What about Mike Zimmer? He was a good DC. He isn't in the NFL. Last I heard he was some sort of analyst for Deion Sanders at Jackson State. I think he could command some sort of cred with the players.

I do agree that mid season coordinator changes and expecting some real change is a big ask, especially when a big part of the problem is with the players. Our defense is riddled with players who have wide receiver mentalities. I said wide receiver because I couldn't come up with a word that encompassed words such as punk, pansy, selfish, narcissistic, wuss, and timid. If you have a word for that, please let me know.

I forgot about Zimmer. He was a good DC. I think he is another guy who has grown rather abrasive w/age. Not sure what to think about him as a possibility. I'd probably rather roll w/Woods for now. JMO.

If you missed my edit, I think abrasive is exactly what those guys need.

I agree with everything you said. I will add though that the player issues are the responsibility of the HC and FO. There's not a job in the world that a person can be successful at without being told what the expectations are and then holding people accountable to those expectations. If the Browns have noncommitted players on the team it is either one of two reasons: 1) they are unaware of the expectations or 2) they are not being held accountable. In both cases, it's the HC and FO responsibilities to treat everyone in a fair and balanced method. It is becoming more apparent with each passing day that it is not happening on the Cleveland Browns.

IMO what we don't have on D is that one guy that the other players fear just a bit. That one guy who might clean their clock if he feels they aren't doing their part. It seems that almost all good D's had that one guy.

We don't have that guy. If you don't have that in a player, you better have that in the coordinator and or head coach. We don't have that in the coaches either.

Maybe, but who is that guy on the Bills? 49ers? Cowboys? Tampa Bay? Those are top 4 ranked defensive teams this year.

peen, the game has changed a lot. So have the players and how they respond to coaches. It's not like it was back in our day. These guys can't be yelled at. Hell, the Cardinals tried to put in his contract about how much time Murray studies each week.

Not arguing w/you. Just a friendly debate.

Edit: I think those teams I listed have really good players on D. Look at SF w/Bosa and Warner. Cowboys have Parsons. Bucs have guys like White and David. Bills have Von Miller and T. White. Not sure if any of those guys rule the locker room like a Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary, Dick Butkus, etc.

I would love one that would come unglued and make a filthy Steeler pay the price for jumping on an injured team mate while he was lying on the ground.

Interesting conversation...

It sounds like the analytics folks don't like the kind of football that the Browns are playing now that the entire Browns program is influenced primarily upon "analytical values"..! This is year 3 of the entire Browns franchise operating according to an owner, upper management and front office, including the draft team, the coaching staff (top to bottom) the Head Coach and Coordinators...ALL operating under a football system based on ANALYTICS.

It sounds as if some would like to see a Browns team, especially on the defensive side to show a bit of aggression and toughness from the Browns ... kind of like the Steelers show...like some players on the Browns roster who show leadership skills along with someone willing to fill the role of an "enforcer" .

Players who exhibit values such as aggressiveness, toughness or are overly emotional by the standards written into the " the Browns Harvard Guidlines" don't last long in Cleveland. Players performing outside the Guidelines as outlined by Haslam's Chief strategy officer will find out who the REAL ENFORCER is of the Browns franchise. Those players who don't meet Depodesta's standards of conduct will find themselves out of Cleveland in a heartbeat.

Analytics, especially on the Browns defensive side, is all about "making nice"...IMO

You may want to make it that because that is the foundation you have built....but that isn't it. Your foundation is still full of cracks and falling apart.

KS is not a bad coach IMO. Maybe he's just guilty of being too nice a guy.

When you have what is now 4 different players going public about the commitment of players and/or just playing for the paycheck, you have a HC issue. Instead, we have forum posters that want the first two banished from the team and have yet to post about the second group. Now we have Bitonio and Cooper going public. How many more players does it take before people start to sit up and take notice. On a side note, you can bet that Bitonio and Cooper didn't decide to come out because of the last game. You can bet that this has been going on a long time, most likely before Cooper even got here and its's getting worse. I guess we'll have to wait and see which player goes public that wakes up the masses over the next 5-weeks.