#58 was caved down by what appears to be TE?Unacceptable for a dlinemen. #20 has to close that down,instead he gets pushed almost to the sideline. I have always said JOKe is a liability vs the run.Players are too fast for a linebacker to run around a block and still make a play. JJ is either not doing what he's coached to do,or,well you know. four players performing poorly on 1 play.That's not the NFL,it's closer to Jr.high level.
I didnot imply that. #58 getting blown up would be on him,not the coaches. Ward has been pathetic against the run all season,at least he set the edge. JOKe shouldn't be on the field on running downs. JJ has checked out. Any condemnation of the coaches would be that these guys should be on the bench,but I highly doubt there's anyone worth a damn to replace them.
Yeah, the scheme and alignment were fine. Clearly, they had guys in place to defend that play.
I agree w/your analysis other than Newsome. He was using the outside/in technique, where his outside shoulder is protecting the boundary. It looks bad on the video, but he is doing what he should be doing. He isn't there to necessarily make the tackle. His job is to ensure that the ball carrier not reach the sidelines and run free.
The only way I would give JJ a bit of a pass is if he was supposed to cover the inside gap to prevent the cutback. It sure looks to me that JOK should have attacked the outside shoulder of the blocker, but he tried to skirt inside. He is not very physical. Still, JJ could have shown better effort.
Good question and good point about a big part of what ails us. Having a great FS who is good in pass defense is beyond huge. Tough, box safeties are a dime a dozen. Probably more plentiful than even good RBs. Trouble is, they can't cover. Having a FS that provide support from sideline to sideline is rare. You mentioned Ed Reed. Dude was awesome at diagnosing plays and making huge plays in the passing game. Troy P was more of gimmick player. A great player, but not a true FS. Watch Fitz for the Steelers play. Dude baits guys into throws. Covers a ton of ground. I have been saying for years that we should make a FS who can be great in coverage a huge priority.
Probably Don Rodgers in 1985. Sadly, that was his only year as he passed away in, I believe in April of 1986. That play You posted Vers on the Ravens TD run showed how our guys are out of position and 1 or 2 not giving there all. SAD!!!
Homes, I don't think they were out of position. I think one got physically dominated, another filled the wrong gap, and a third showed a lack of effort. The defensive call was fine.
Doesn't matter what players did or didn't do when the same things keep happening. At the end of the day, Woods, and SKI are responsible. Period. This is the exact same crap the Woods' D did last year until game 7 or 8 iirc.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 10/24/2210:12 PM.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
With all due respect, why in God's name would you take OCD's analysis on a football discussion over mine? I know exactly what happened on that play. He doesn't and is just pushing an agenda.
I didnot imply that. #58 getting blown up would be on him,not the coaches. Ward has been pathetic against the run all season,at least he set the edge. JOKe shouldn't be on the field on running downs. JJ has checked out. Any condemnation of the coaches would be that these guys should be on the bench,but I highly doubt there's anyone worth a damn to replace them.
I know you didn't imply that.
Regardless of whether players should be on the bench or not - when you run one play and multiple players out of position, and that is a theme we have seen a few times this year, I think Coaching is a massive part of the problem. And if it's only one player repeatedly out of position or taking bad angles or slow to react ... then him being on the field is a coaching issue too.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Which is probably a good reason to consider replacing him at the end of the season.
Some people refuse to accept that when the same problem rears its ugly head week after week that there's something wrong at the top. This same D played pretty well last year after a slow start and now, until the last game has played very poorly. Last year made it plain that the players can perform given the right circumstances. Now with mainly the same roster they have been laying eggs. We have obvious holes that people at the top have refused to fill. We have talent that somehow it appears Woods can't seem to use to their strengths.
The entire "everything is fine at the top" scenario rings very hollow. And as you can see, if you don't take his word for it that's a "you" problem.
People can say the players aren't doing their job. But whose job is it to motivate them? They can say they need interior DL help. But whose job was it to fill those holes? Everyone on this board knew that going into the season. They don't have a S that can cover. Why didn't the coaching staff and FO know that and address it? Who drafted and signed the players that were supposed to fill that role?
Passing the buck and pretending "there's nothing to see here" seems to be a common theme with some. It's as if they think people don't have eyes.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
With all due respect, why in God's name would you take OCD's analysis on a football discussion over mine? I know exactly what happened on that play. He doesn't and is just pushing an agenda.
Why be so insulting? He didn't say anything about that play. Apples and oranges.
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Doesn't matter what players did or didn't do when the same things keep happening. At the end of the day, Woods, and SKI are responsible. Period. This is the exact same crap the Woods' D did last year until game 7 or 8 iirc.
But, history has proven that in some way, we will invent a new way to lose.
Anyone agree, or maybe seen this before??????
I'm not sure, but I think we may be done inventing new ways to lose. We *may* have covered them all.... I just keep seeing, at most, new twists on all of the ways we've lost before. Even going back to some of the crazier ones back to like 2002.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
With all due respect, why in God's name would you take OCD's analysis on a football discussion over mine? I know exactly what happened on that play. He doesn't and is just pushing an agenda.
Why be so insulting? He didn't say anything about that play. Apples and oranges.
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Doesn't matter what players did or didn't do when the same things keep happening. At the end of the day, Woods, and SKI are responsible. Period. This is the exact same crap the Woods' D did last year until game 7 or 8 iirc.
Thanks, Fate, had no idea I was being attacked for this nonsense. And you are right, I was just expressing what I think should be obvious to anyone who actually watches our games. And I also don't recall asking people to believe me over the board's self-declared football guru. I'm not happy with the team this year, any more than I expect most of you are, but nobody should confuse that with me pushing an agenda. They simply stink, and Joe Woods is at the center of that stench at this moment. Anyone arguing differently may have an agenda, but I do not. I don't want Woods fired mid-season because I still think the D, as in previous years under Woods, will finish strong.
Vers, I have no idea why you have your panties in such a wad over me saying this, but that's a you problem, not an us problem bro.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
This is a REDIRECT from the thread titled " Re: Browns possibly looking to trade Kareem Hunt and Greedy"..
SOMEONE took that thread in a different direction with the following comment..
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No, our DTs don't fit Woods 4-2-5 defense. It's the one spot in that particular defense that requires big, space-eating, block-occupying, guys.
Other board members chimed in with their opinions, pointing out that Woods and GM Berry have had 3 years to draft the talent Woods wanted to man his DT position for the 4-2-5 defense. All of the DTs that GM Berry added via the draft and free agency, over the last 3 years have been smallish, 290 lb DTs who have a hard time stopping the run. The Browns currently rank 24th in defense vs the run.
How the hell did the Browns GM draft DTs who did not fit Woods defense.?...OR....did GM Berry draft and add the FA talent that Woods wanted..?
Let's bring that discussion over here in the "Joe Woods and his defense thread"...
But if are talking about as a DC, there's no way he'd take it (nor would it be offered).
Maybe he'd come back as an NFL head coach one last time time for one last payday from a team willing to offer it before his retirement, but we're not going to offer it.
Stefanski not going anywhere untill after the 2023 season, and any DC change will be a young "upcomer" as they say . A few names will be mentioned on this board for the remainder of the season.
Not saying any of that is right or wrong. Just imo.
Gregg Williams is abrasive and an ego-maniac. He was fired from the Jets after one of the worst defensive calls in the history of the league:
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Gasesaid he fired Williams because of the defensive call he made late in the game that ended in disaster.
"I obviously wasn’t happy about that call," Gase said. "That was a heartbreaking way for our guys to lose the game, for that to happen in that situation, just we can’t have that happen."
The Jets were up 28-24 with 13 seconds left and the Raiders facing third-and-10 from the Jets' 46. The only thing that could hurt them was a touchdown.
And yet rather than protect the end zone, Williams called a "cover zero" blitz. Basically, every player who wasn't assigned to cover a potential receiver went after the quarterback. That left his young cornerbacks with no defensive help. And disaster struck, when Raiders receiver Henry Ruggs III burned undrafted rookie Lamar Jackson for a touchdown.
Jets safety Marcus Maye was openly critical of the call after the game. And while Gase said that had nothing to do with the decision to fire Williams, Maye certainly wasn't the only one who felt that way about the decision.
And Gase was surely worried that other players had lost confidence in the defensive coordinator after such a questionable decision.
Also, Jabril Peppers can't cover his shadow. We already have that guy in Delpit.
I say no way to both.
If Woods gets fired, let's bring in a proven guy like Fangio or a hot-shot, young guy who is being tutored by one of the league's top d-coordinators.
I definitely think we should upgrade our safeties, but let's find one who can actual cover the field in pass defense. Hard hitting, run defending safeties are a dime a dozen.
I'm afraid AZ is right...no one is going to come to Browns as a DC without the approval of the "analytics boys"...and that includes Stefanski. Williams is a football guy, therefore you can cross him out.
Gregg Williams is abrasive and an ego-maniac. He was fired from the Jets after one of the worst defensive calls in the history of the league
Also, Jabril Peppers can't cover his shadow. We already have that guy in Delpit.
I say no way to both.
If Woods gets fired, let's bring in a proven guy like Fangio or a hot-shot, young guy who is being tutored by one of the league's top d-coordinators.
I definitely think we should upgrade our safeties, but let's find one who can actual cover the field in pass defense. Hard hitting, run defending safeties are a dime a dozen.
Unless I'm wrong, Woods was selected by Stefanski to be a part of his staff when hired by the Browns. Saying that, one would assume that if a move was made at DC, it would in coordination with Stefanski wishes for the position. The amount of leeway that a DC or OC has on a team is dependent on the hierarchy structure setup by the said HC. It gets implied here that Woods is the failure part of the equation, but I question with Stefanski's grip on the offense - it would seem highly unlikely that he doesn't have complete control over Woods too. IMHO, I just don't see a personality like Stefanski allowing a DC to go rouge nor would he allow the FO the opportunity to appoint someone to his staff that he didn't have control over in his hierarchy structure.
In February, head coach Kevin Stefanski shuffled his coaching staff by assigning new roles to five assistant coaches and adding two new assistants to his staff. Of those moves, Stephen Bravo-Brown moved from defensive quality control coach to assistant of special teams, and the two new guys were Jordan Thomas, who was hired to be the new be assistant defensive line coach after spending time as defensive line coach at San Diego State, and Jeff Anderson, who will be the new defensive quality control coach. Finally, the Browns confirmed that Chris Kiffin was returning to the team to be defensive line coach for a third consecutive season. Obviously at this stage of the season in 2022, these moves have backfired big time.
The point is that Stefanski made changes to the defensive coaching staff in early 2022 and they are not working out well. Bouncing Woods at seasons end would give Stefanski another opportunity for improvement but could and probably would have a domino effect with the other coaching positions. I don't believe for a minute that Stefanski would allow the FO to make that selection for him. Of course, the new DC would also want a say in his/her staff selections meaning a huge overhaul on the defense. This is even before we get into the player needs.
Finally, the bigger issue could be how the Haslam's react if the Browns go 6-11 or worse. That would be a 3-year heavy investment into a coaching staff that over those 3-years couldn't deliver a winning record. A 6-11 record would give Stefanski a 3-year career total of 26-26 with each year getting progressively worse and no playoffs for the last 2-years. Those feeling confident that Stefanski's position is safe must not have been watching the Haslam's the last decade. Excuses aside (I'm certain there are many), a nonwinning record over 3-years is what it is - NOT GOOD.
This post is meant to be educational and is not influenced by any sort of agenda. I think the safety position[s] are often misunderstood by many fans and media types. There is huge difference between a really good FS and a really good SS. Today's defenses have blurred the lines a bit due to the volume of pass plays per game, thereby putting safeties who aren't very good in coverage being asked to do just that.
I have said that in the box safeties who are good against the run are a dime a dozen. Peppers was an example of that. TJ Ward is another. Delpit actually fits that description.
When I refer to "coverage" or natural free safeties, I am talking about guys who can not only cover a guy one-on-one, but more importantly, provide help to corners and LBers. Ed Reed is a great example of a guy who could recognize plays quickly and get to where the ball was going to help his corner out. Earl Thomas was another. The late Sean Taylor was another guy who was great in coverage. He could also lay the wood. As great as the former Steeler Troy P [can't spell it] was, he wasn't a true FS/guy who was good in coverage.
I'll post an article that ranks the top 10 safeties in the league today. Please pay special attention to the coverage grades of each player. I personally don't think James is as good in coverage as their rating suggests, but this is just an example of how different safeties have different strengths. There are a ton of really tough, fast, aggressive safeties that will come up and hit guys hard and can offer really good run support. However, there are very few guys who can cover the field and help others out w/their coverage in zone defenses and even in Cover 1, which is a man coverage w/the exception of one guy. That guy is the FS who is playing zone and providing deep --and sometimes intermediate--help.
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2022 NFL season's early top-10 safeties: Derwin James at No. 1; rookies paying immediate dividends
Published: Sep 29, 2022 at 02:45 PM Updated: Sep 30, 2022 at 12:40 AM NextGenStats_NoShield_600x600px The Next Gen Stats Analytics Team
Each week of the 2022 NFL season, the Next Gen Stats analytics team will present a different Position Power Ranking, meant to spotlight the top performances among a specific group of players. This week, we've assembled a list of the top 10 safeties heading into Week 4.
Before we dive in, though, a note on our methodology: To help create quantifiable rankings, we have devised a formula that yields a Next Gen Stats percentile score, which measures how a player is performing relative to his peers. The formula uses each player's percentile score across a series of key metrics to create one composite score, indicating which players at that position performed best. We will lean on this formula to inform our rankings when applicable.
NOTE: Player percentiles are based on components such as each player's tackling, coverage and pass-rush abilities. The metric and overall scores are based on each player's performance in Weeks 1-3.
Rank 1 Derwin James
Los Angeles Chargers · Year 5 Play-time percentage: 99 Tackling score: 95 Coverage score: 86 Pass-rush score: 90 OVERALL SCORE: 94
The highest-paid safety in the league brings one of the more unique skill sets to the sport. James wears the green dot for the Chargers' defense (a role typically reserved for middle linebackers), making him responsible for relaying head coach Brandon Staley's play calls to the rest of the defense. A versatile chess piece who can align all over the field, James has moved into a more traditional safety role since Staley took over in 2021 (52 percent of snaps aligned at deep safety, compared to 21 percent in his first two seasons). Nonetheless, James has still been extremely effective as a pass rusher under Staley, generating 12 pressures (fourth among defensive backs) on just 40 blitzes since 2021. The rangy playmaker also leads all DBs with 56 defensive stops (tackles on plays resulting in negative expected points added for the offense) over that time period. And that's not to take anything away from his coverage abilities: James has allowed just 32 yards on 13 targets this season.
Since taking over as the Cowboys' defensive coordinator in 2021, Dan Quinn has used nickel personnel (five defensive backs) at the second-highest rate in the NFL (79 percent of plays). Given that Quinn is also one of the last defensive play callers majoring in single-high shells (63 percent of plays since '21, third in NFL), that means the strong safety will often line up in the box. This year, Wilson has filled that role for the Cowboys, aligning in the box almost as frequently (41 percent of the time) as he does at deep safety (44 percent). The fourth-year pro has taken advantage of his proximity to the ball, leading all safeties with four QB pressures on just 11 blitzes. Availability has been the only weak point in Wilson's NFL career, but if he can stay healthy, opposing quarterbacks will have to account for another emerging threat on Dallas' aggressive defense.
Donovan Wilson lays the lumber on Daniel Jones for fifth Cowboys sack of game Rank 3 Talanoa Hufanga
San Francisco 49ers · Year 2 Play-time percentage: 100 Tackling score: 92 Coverage score: 93 Pass-rush score: 61 OVERALL SCORE: 93
The second-year safety out of USC has burst onto the scene as one of the early breakout stars of the 2022 campaign. Hufanga showed enough in his rookie season for the 49ers to feel comfortable letting Jaquiski Tartt walk in free agency, and the youngster has seamlessly slotted into the starting lineup. With a blend of speed, football IQ and relentless physicality, the 2021 fifth-rounder is yet another diamond in the rough San Francisco uncovered in the late rounds of the draft. No one doubted Hufanga's abilities as a heat-seeking missile coming into the draft. He has lived up to that reputation in the NFL, posting twice as many run stuffs (six) as any other DB this season. But it's his development in coverage that has rocketed him into the top three of this list. Hufanga has allowed just one reception for 9 yards on six targets this season, with an interception and three passes defensed, including this assist to teammate Tashaun Gipson.
We highlighted Pitre's versatility when he was featured a couple weeks ago in our piece on the top-10 rookie debuts, and he's continued to be used as a Swiss Army Knife in the Texans' revamped secondary. The rookie has not missed a snap yet in his young career, splitting time between deep safety (46 percent of snaps) and in the box (37 percent). Pitre has made plays all over the field, as he's currently tied for the second-most stops (11) among all defensive backs, trailing only Talanoa Hufanga (14). The Baylor product had his best game yet in Week 3, making five defensive stops and showing off his ballhawking skills with two interceptions. Despite being one of two winless teams through Week 3, Houston looks to have landed two cornerstones in its secondary with Pitre and CB Derek Stingley Jr.
The Steelers reset the position's market this offseason, making Fitzpatrick the highest-paid safety in the league -- well, for a couple months, until the Chargers broke the bank for Derwin James. Safe to say neither team has any regrets about these investments. Fitzpatrick is the truest free safety on this list so far, lining up deep on 85 percent of his snaps. Despite aligning at an average depth of 12.4 yards, Fitzpatrick has made 10 defensive stops this season (including a league-high seven when aligned as a deep safety). But the two-time All-Pro's most impressive skill is his ability to process information in split seconds on the back end of the defense. That elite awareness in coverage has translated to Fitzpatrick breaking up a pass or intercepting the ball on 21.8 percent of targets since entering the league in 2018, the third-highest ballhawk rate (percentage of targets as nearest defender resulting in a pass defensed or INT) in the NFL during that span (min. 150 targets). Fitzpatrick has taken an interception to the house in four of the five years of his career, including the first pass faced by the Steelers this season.
Can't-Miss Play: Minkah Fitzpatrick pick-sixes Burrow on QB's first pass of '22 Rank 6 Xavier Woods
Woods is on his third team in three seasons, but he's playing his best football in Year 1 with the Panthers. Woods and teammate Jeremy Chinn have each aligned as deep safeties on more than 65 percent of their snaps, forming a dynamic duo that has helped Carolina allow fewer than 20 points in each of its last two games. And Woods' impact on his new roster has been felt all over the field. As a pass rusher, his three QB pressures this season trail only Donovan Wilson's four among safeties. In the run game, Woods has a pair of run stuffs (rushes stopped for no gain or negative yards), tied for fifth-most among all defensive backs. And in coverage, only 44.4 percent of targets with Woods as the nearest defender have been completed this season, tied for the eighth-lowest mark among safeties with at least five targets.
Rank 7 Richie Grant
Atlanta Falcons · Year 2 Play-time percentage: 99 Tackling score: 87 Coverage score: 80 Pass-rush score: 54 OVERALL SCORE: 86
After a year of coming off the bench as a rookie, Grant -- a 2021 Next Gen Stats Draft Score "sleeper" -- assumed a starting role in Year 2. His impact in the passing game has been tremendous, helping the Falcons overcome the losses of S Duron Harmon and CB Fabian Moreau. Grant, who has aligned as a deep safety on 72 percent of snaps and as a slot CB on 18 percent, has allowed a mere 26.7 passer rating when targeted as the nearest defender in 2022. His ball skills have also been on display, as his ballhawk rate of 30.0 percent ranks third among all players with 10-plus targets as the nearest defender, trailing only LB Devin Lloyd and S Marcus Williams. The Falcons have cleaned house from top to bottom recently, with a new general manager, head coach and starting QB all coming in since the start of 2021. Grant appears to be one of the new faces that is here to stay.
Rank 8 Mike Edwards
Tampa Bay Buccaneers · Year 4 Play-time percentage: 100 Tackling score: 92 Coverage score: 74 Pass-rush score: 51 OVERALL SCORE: 85
Edwards typically came off the bench in 2020 and 2021, as the starting safety duo of Antoine Winfield Jr. and Jordan Whitehead led a Buccaneers defense that secured 24 regular season wins and a Super Bowl title. But with the latter of those two relocating to the Jets in free agency this past offseason, the onus was on Edwards to prove he was worthy of filling a starting spot. So far, he has done that and more. Edwards has aligned in various spots this season (56 percent of snaps at deep safety, 14 percent as slot CB, 16 percent as off-ball LB) and succeeded in all of them. His 11 defensive stops are tied for second-most among all defensive backs, trailing only Talanoa Hufanga's 14. But Edwards has also made an impact through the air, as offenses targeting him as the nearest defender have a total of -8.9 expected points added in 2022 (third-lowest among safeties, behind only Minkah Fitzpatrick and Eddie Jackson). The Buccaneers boast the NFL's No. 1 scoring defense in 2022, allowing a mere 9.0 points per game, and Edwards' emergence is an inarguable reason why.
Rank 9 Jaquan Brisker
Chicago Bears · Year 1 Play-time percentage: 100 Tackling score: 74 Coverage score: 87 Pass-rush score: 32 OVERALL SCORE: 84
How are the Bears 2-1 despite only having completed 23 passes through three games (19 fewer than the next-closest team)? It's all about the defense, and the addition of Brisker -- a 2022 Next Gen Stats Draft Score "sleeper" -- has been a major component of that. Brisker appeared on our rundown of the top-10 rookie debuts due to his pass-coverage prowess, and that trend has not slowed down by any means since then. Only 30.0 percent of targets with Brisker as the nearest defender have been completed this season, the lowest rate among any player at any position with 10-plus targets. And even when the ball does get completed, Brisker's sure tackling helps limit the big plays, as his 1.9 yards/target allowed as the nearest defender is tied for first (with Chargers CB Bryce Callahan) among all players with 10-plus targets. Brisker has played all over the field (51.3 percent of snaps aligned as deep safety, 13.8 percent as slot CB, 15.3 percent as off-ball LB), and he has been the definition of "instant impact" for one of the league's most surprising teams thus far.
The Dolphins are known for blitzing their defensive backs. Holland and fellow Miami safety Brandon Jones are the faces at the forefront of that effort. Jones tends to line up all over the field, while Holland has aligned at deep safety on 82.8 percent of snaps this season, but both routinely make their presence felt in the offensive backfield. Holland's 14 QB pressures since 2021 rank second among safeties, behind only Jones' 19. Holland's four sacks over the same span are also second among safeties, behind Jones' six. As it pertains to 2022 specifically, Holland has a 16.7 percent sack rate, tied for first (with Jeremy Chinn) among all defensive backs with at least five pass rushes. Holland also makes a profound impact when he stays in pass coverage. The second-year pro has three passes defensed this season, and his 50.0 percent ballhawk rate is tied for second among all players with at least five targets, trailing only Texans DB Desmond King.
UPDATE: Holland had five tackles, one run stuff and allowed zero catches (one target) on 33 coverage snaps versus the Bengals on Thursday.
HONORABLE MENTION: Budda Baker, Arizona Cardinals; Eddie Jackson, Chicago Bears; John Johnson, Cleveland Browns.
-- Keegan Abdoo, Mike Band and Cole Jacobson contributed to this piece.
Am I the only one who finds it odd that Vers has a huge issue with "Gregg Williams is abrasive and an ego-maniac".... But doesn't have an issue with a player who signed a long term contract only to refuse to honor it only a couple of months later and then was found to be a sexual predator? I find his priority list to be amazing. Or should I say his warped priority list.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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