DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Joe Woods and the Defense

That should be for a private discussion, not public consumption. GW can be 'abrasive', but so what. He got results here when given the opportunity...

Well I know for a fact Greg Williams had a better record with less talent than ks in 2022.

It's my opinion, but I'd be shocked if anyone without an agenda disagreed.... I'm 100% sure we'd have a better record this year with GW as HC rather than KS. . . . Greg didn't beat himself and his team played disciplined and with energy/passion.

Maybe we should see if we can get RAC out of retirement. We haven't flipped a coin to make decisions for a long time. Or have we?

If the stars aligned we could tempt Butch Davis back ?

Mangini is the guy you need as long as he has a good OC. This team had more discipline with him than any coach since Marty. That is if you want to bring back a former coach.

I have no idea if the Browns would have more W''s with GW than Stefanski. It would be difficult with all things considered to believe they would have less W's with GW.

But then I'm not a fire Stefnaski guy. Watson will be the one to make that call.

I agree Stefanski isn't going anywhere until after 2023. Which is a shame. He's incompetent as a head coach. He's Matt Nagy.

If he doesn't hire an aggressive, experienced DC in the off season, that will tell you what you need to know about his ego. If it truly is some young up and comer how does thar help the Browns? It helps Stefanski because he won't feel threatened but how does that help the Browns?

Until the Browns get a FO and coaching staff that prioritize winning above all else, the Browns will continue to be a laughing stock.

The only place analytics is hurting the Browns is in game. Stefanski has no feel for emotion, momentum, confidence, etc. He's a robot.

I had a nagging bad feeling about Stefanski before the season, and it has all come true.

The Browns need a real head coach.

I would take Flores in a heartbeat.

I take that back. It's not the only place. Some of Berry's off season moves are strange as well.

I really don't think it's affecting the draft. That just screams incompetence to me.

Ouch, but well-deserved criticism. Stefanski has been getting a pass for over 2-years now - time to call it what it is - a total lack of leadership.

Another thread hijacked by agenda posting. Is anyone even talking about Woods and the defense anymore?

Just a freaking question - who does Woods work for? Who the hell is Woods boss? Who is the person responsible for the defense when it stinks to high heaven - Woods or the HC of the team? Quit trying to play the blame game on posters who realize that the real issue with the Browns is and has been the HC. It's his coaches he selected, it's his approval of the scheme, it's his decision on the players, IT'S STAFANSKI's RESPONSIBILITY! Surprise, we are talking about Woods and the defense!

When you say "has been" I have to correct you. The biggest issue with the Browns was Baker. That one is solved.

The next issue, and I was hoping this wouldn't be the case, is Stefanski. He's clearly in over his head and has gotten worse with each season.

I don't want Berry to be an issue. I want to believe the competence we thought we were finally getting with Berry and Stefanski has some truth to it. But now that the front office is blaming the players and not the coaches has me concerned. We as fans know the season is over, but the organization shouldn't feel that way. So how on earth does trading Kareem Hunt help? What kind of message does that send to the team? The players know their coaches suck.

And I'm not absolving the players. We have the softest star players in the league. And no leaders amongst the bunch. But we are losing games weekly due to the coaching and the players not buying in.

2 solid Dt's and a good FS would make a lot of problems go away because we would have won those close games and we'd be playing for 1st place tonight.

I respectfully disagree because if what you claim to have been the biggest issue was actually the issue then we wouldn't and absolutely shouldn't be sitting at 2-5. According to your statement, that issue has been solved which would lead one to think we should be battling it out for a home field playoff position with the talent the team possesses. Unless I missed something, we're currently battling it out for the #1 pick in next year's draft which we traded away. That said, I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion because the current results prove that statement wrong.

That's not true, and I won't attempt to explain it to you beyond this post. Both Baker and Stefanski can be bad. Most of the world except for a few on here knew Baker was a bad QB, and it has played out exactly as predicted on another team where he is now a backup and will be fighting for a second contract to stay in the league. He did that all on his own without any help from Stefanski. As a matter of fact Stefanski got him a nice $30m/year contract extension from the Browns that he passed up because he thought he was better than he was. Stefanski actually helped Baker.

Stefanski has his own issues independent of Baker. One has nothing to do with the other.

Honestly there is merit to the idea that if Baker was the biggest problem that now he's gone The team should be better. There's also logic to the fact that Baker played badly last year. Wasn't a solution, and has played even worse in Charlotte.

With that said, the team this year is looking worse than ever under stefanski. Someone to point to the offense as being KS responsibility and that is appearing statistically above average. Reality is as a head coach You're responsible for all phases of the team.

I have no idea how Baker is going to do for us of his career. Rhule got fired and the Panthers are a different team. Maybe it was Baker maybe it was Rhule. Maybe it was both. I doubt KS is being removed and we'll see if there is more of the same ineptness when Watson plays and next season ....

At 2-5 it doesn't look like anything is "solved"

....Starting to wonder how much of the defensive struggles are from JOK running his way out of his gap/trying to jump around blocks.

I don't think you can point to the secondary and the run game being so porous until last night on one player.

Last night, I thought Jones and Taki duo gave us the most fundamentally sound, disciplined, and productive set of linebackers that we've had on the field all year.

I also think that Woods had a great game last night as a coach. I really liked when he took out the DTs when Cinci had to pass to catch up and inserted Wright and Thomas to go along w/Myles and Clowney. Four DEs in together helped improve the pass rush. He also brought more LBer blitzes than normal.

Agreed. Before the Bengals game there were multiple issues. Players, scheme, fit, communication...

Last night was what we all expected to see this year from game 1... And if it takes a couple games to sync up, maybe game 3. Crying shame we've lost winnable games and waited to be 2-5 before finding form. Not ready to say everything is fixed - that performance last night needs to be repeated every game the rest of the season ... Even when we get beat or the offense struggles, need to see the same energy and aggressive adjustment and play/scheme.

Got to give credit when and where it is due. Need to see more of this before gets his 'creds' back though....

two thingz
A. How did Taki ... I mean what exactly did JOK do to kick Taki Taki out of the starting lineup?

B. if nothing elze ... The mizunderztandingz on the pazz coverage disappeared when D. Ward had to leave the lineup for injury.

so, why couldn't anyone find out who would make the bezt defense out there?
I mean, why couldn't they/ anyone find out and decide, to play .. Taki Taki, and A.J. Green, ... az ztarterz? at the beginning of the year.

and Imagine, how useful a coach could find JOK coming off the bench? in zo many rolez.

The broadcast I heard azaid, that Kunaczyk went in on the early downz Izt and 2nd downz.

j/c,

So the defense has been playing better the past two weeks ... and possibly the biggest contributing factor in that could be that we have been less predictable with our coverages (playing different coverages too) and our pass rush / blitzing ... all this while Ward has been out and our LBs' unit has been depleted.

-->Could this mean that Kevin Stefanski is having more of an input of the defensive side?

-->Takitaki @ MIKE going forward?

-->Is Joe Woods off of the hot seat for next season DC?

I am going to reiterate that I really don't see glaring scheme issues w/this defense. Of course, all defenses have strengths and weaknesses and this one is no different. However, 28 percent of the league runs a similar scheme. That's a really high number. So, despite what a couple of posters are claiming, the scheme is clearly fit for the NFL.

I almost hate saying this because I don't want anyone to get any heat. I despise the talk about firing this guy or that guy. I like talking about the actual play on the field. However, I wonder how much say our coaches have on the roster and playing time? I wonder if Berry perhaps a bit more control of such things than he should? I say that because it's pretty clear which guys are not playing well on defense. It's also clear that every coach who runs a 4-2-5 wants at least one big, run-stuffing, block-eating guy in the middle. Despite what some claim, no way is Joe Woods that dumb to go against that fact. I also have to add that every guy Berry has drafted made the team last year. The same thing occurred this year. All those draft picks and not one of them were cut before the second season began. I am not sure if any have been cut since the season started, but it seems peculiar and more than just a little coincidental that none of his draft choices were cut after two Training Camps. Milk also posted something about some of the guys on the defense feeling entitled and having their jobs handed to them.

I like Berry and I want him to stay. I think he has done a pretty good job overall, but no way is Phillips better than Taki Taki and no way is Delpit playing well enough to keep his job. There is also that nagging DT issue. I am disappointed that Berry has not adequately addressed that position. We don't even need a dominating guy. Just someone to plug up the middle. There are plenty of those guys around.

I will admit that I could be dead wrong about this. I am not sure if I believe it myself. I really don't want to believe it, but it's a nagging thought that I've been thinking about for a few weeks. If I am correct, I'd like to see the coaching staff and FO to get together this off season and discuss how the roster is chosen and who has the most say about playing time.

One thing against my theory is that Felton and Schwartz have lost playing time recently on the offensive side of the ball. Of course, they are being replaced by guys Berry drafted.

Just another way to look at things.

I too have some questions about input and playtime, but in Berry's defense, I don't think it is unusual for Berry's guys to stick at this point. Not in 2-3 years. I think that is pretty normal with any new GM. Now, next season should be different. Some of those duds should start getting cut. We have signed enough players, both drafted and free agent signing that should start to force the hand a bit. Also, we did cut LeCount a few weeks ago.

In the end, Berry has put together a pretty good roster. Before the season everybody was talking about how talented we were. I don't think that has changed over the last few weeks. Possibly it was overestimated a bit. I think the problem is we don't value some positions as much as others. That probably isn't all that different from any other team, but the problems are starting to show. For whatever reason we seem to do a poor job evaluating or prioritizing DT's and receivers. I am not sure if we feel that those positions can be had in the middle rounds much like there is a general feeling that centers and guards should come out of the middle rounds, or we just don't do a good job of scouting and evaluating those guys.

jc..

Looking for solutions to the Browns defensive issues seemed impossible until the Browns coaches and GM were forced to make changes at the LB position due to injuries. The following story explains...

Position switch keys success for Sione Takitaki, Browns

With two middle linebackers out, Takitaki played an important role as the MIKE
By JaredMueller@JaredKMueller Nov 2, 2022, 7:17pm EDT
LINK

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I've watched the Browns defense all year, especially the LBs and Walker, the ML until he suffered a season ending injury in the 3rd game against the Steelers...he was all over the field and many times out of position to take care of stopping the run. He was not what I would call a traditional ML.

Phillips took over and he had issues taking bad angles putting himself out of position to tackle the runner at times...then he suffered a season ending pec injury. JOK had some of the same issues but watching video you could see that many times he was not reading the running back but simply "guessing", hoping to stop the RB by blitzing through a gap hoping he guessed right, but in many cases he would recover and end up chasing the play.

Takitaki actually played the position of ML the way it is supposed to be played. Good LBs usually have an general instinct about where a play is heading and taking the time to diagnose the play rather than guessing.

Hopefully the Browns management and coaching staff recognize the value of Taki's play against the Bengals and have the courage to name Taki the starting ML.Play your best players and don't play favorites...do what's best for the team.





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About time. I thought it was dumb that with that when Walker went out that we didn't slide Taki over to the Mike and put Phillips in at the SAM, Taki is more of a traditional Mike LB than Phillips is, Phillips isn't that good at taking on and playing off blockers, and he doesn't seem to have the smarts for that position either as he was always choosing the wrong gap and getting taken out of the play.

I've been out of the game for a long time, but it was almost always the Mike who would call the defensive signals in the huddle and then the FS would make coverage calls after the offense broke the huddle and showed their formation.

I don't know. I see it as more an issue of, a lot of the time, whichever gap a LB takes, it's relatively easy for a ball carrier to make him wrong. Pick right, the ball goes left. Pick left, the ball goes right. Frequently, the MLB just needs to crash into the lineman/blocker and not let a big hole develop to either side. He just needs to slow things down so that someone else can make the play. Unfortunately, JOK and Phillips seemed to think they always should be the ones making the plays, but sadly ended up making opportunities for big plays the other way instead.

Jumping around blocks doesn't work unless there's someone to fill the way you didn't jump, or for some other reason the ball carrier isn't able to go to the side one didn't jump around. Yes, you will occasionally get a TFL for a few yards trying to avoid blockers. On the other hand, if it doesn't work, you're giving up first downs, chunk yards, and/or touchdowns. It's the defensive version of hero ball/always swinging for the home run. The way we were doing it, we were leading the league in "strikeouts."

I posted this earlier, but am posting again because it's an example of JOK doing exactly what you are talking about.

While I feel you're right to a great degree, there is also a skill of seeing what the OL is doing and read that. The way they shift in order to open holes is something you can often see with your own eyes for those paying attention. The ability ro read where they are shifting and what hole they are opening up goes a long way in diagnosing where the RB intends to go.

But that isn't the way it's supposed to work - to the best of my knowledge and limited playing experience. As a player/position part of the front 7 you have an area of responsibility - and you take care of that and the next guy takes care of his area etc ... when the play comes inside, the LB shouldn't have to guess which side of a blocker to play the ball carrier - and if he guesses wrong it's a busted play and a big gain. The LB should play one side with the knowledge that the other side is taken care of by a fellow defender. If you are the outside guy it's simpler - you contain and don't let the guy get outside to gash you for a big gain, turning the runner back inside or getting them out of bounds. If Taki, or JOK or Walker has to guess one side and commit - and if the runner goes the other way it's a big gain, then we are in trouble.

Yes, defenders have gaps they are responsible for. Against some running plays, this is pretty straight forward. The RB is supposed to run to a specific gap. Against zone running plays or plays with pulling linemen, it's somewhat less straight forward. The RB isn't really told what gap to run to. He's given a general area/zone and told to read what comes open. When running outside zone, the "gaps" tend to naturally get wider. The gap a defender was supposed to defend based on the play call could be 5 times the size it was when the play started. If an OL pulls into that gap he's essentially split that gap into two "gaps." In that instance, the defender has to try to slow play both gaps while someone can chase the runner down from the sides. You can't pick one and leave a new "gap" that's bigger than the one you were initially assigned to defend. That's why pulling lineman are so prevalent now. They essentially create new gaps to defend that no defender was initially assigned to.