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"Let me make sure I got this right. The Republican Party is all about personal responsibility. So me wanting to make sure I was covered and willing to pay for it with my own hard earned money makes me a bad guy or a lefty..,"

You can do as you see fit with your money. Willing to pay for it WITH YOUR OWN money. That's a key phrase.

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Hey Arch, not being snarky here, but you do realize virtually every other first world industrialized Nation on the planet has Universal/ government Healthcare. It's a right of all those citizens, and not like in the US where people say people are covered they just need to go to the emergency room. And all those industrialized first world Nations there have conservatives, voters and politicians , all of which (most of which) still advocate for healthcare as a right.


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Yes, I do realize that. I also realize many other things. 1 of which is how much businesses pay for insurance for employees. It might blow your mind.

I also realize that taxes would go up a lot, and businesses would not compensate employees for NOT paying for their insurance.

I also know that in the small European countries mass transit is supposedly great. That doesn't translate to mass transit being practical in the U.S., not to the level of countries that are the size of Ohio.

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Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Yes, I do realize that. I also realize many other things. 1 of which is how much businesses pay for insurance for employees. It might blow your mind.

I also realize that taxes would go up a lot, and businesses would not compensate employees for NOT paying for their insurance.

I also know that in the small European countries mass transit is supposedly great. That doesn't translate to mass transit being practical in the U.S., not to the level of countries that are the size of Ohio.

Not really up on Mass Transit... so I'll stay away.

But, as for insurance, I'm over 65.,. I receive Social Security., not as my sole source of income but more of a supplement to my other income. I could not survive on SS alone. But keep in mind, I spent 50+ years working and I paid for my SS over years.

As for Medicare, I paid for that over the years as well. In addition, I pay for it out of my SS income each and every month. I also PAY for my supplemental plan each month. My total cost per month for Health insurance coverage is over $300 per month.

Nothing is free.. I never asked for it to be free. But I can tell you for sure, having been on both sides of the fence (pre and post retirement) Medicare coupled with a solid Supplement Plan is the best health insurance I've ever had... EVER.

I wanted Medicare for all back when Obama and the Dems brought in the ACA.. I thought they made it too complicated and wasted millions of dollars and too damn much time and energy on that hot mess.

What gets lost many time is that I'd have been VERY willing to pay much more for Medicare coupled with a Supplemental plan.

So, I'd have paid for the plan... But we need to address this going forward. There is always a way if you take the time to think it through.


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It's a simple idea. You either support big pharma and the health insurance companies or you think healthcare is a human right. Almost every industrialized nation in the world considers healthcare a human right but in America we value big business over our own people.

Mass transit on a national scale is a logistical issue that has absolutely nothing to do with healthcare.


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[quote=PerfectSpiral]The trump organization has been found guilty as charged on many felony tax fraud charges. To even elude trump did nothing illegal in his personal tax returns is naive. And trump cooking IRS officials into not doing the mandatory audits on his tax returns shows a collusion between the IRS and the WH during his administration. Another felony.


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And they still don't care.


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yup.

It's not like they haven't been told by every corner of Reality for 7-10 years.


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Mass transit works where it works and is based on population density, distances between large populations who need/want to travel and social/community mindset. It's not a one size fits all.

Regarding healthcare - the UK (as an example) spends less than 1/2 what the US does per capita. If you analyze ANY medical procedure in the USA the cost is far higher than the same procedure in other first world / industrialized countries. Same thing goes for the cost of prescriptions and medications (costs are much different - I don't know if its the same ratio). On the one hand you have a for profit system with every link in the chain getting fat and happy - on the other hand you have the inefficiency of big government. While I'll never dispute that government run "anything" is never efficient - in this case the inefficiency is better than the fat that is skimmed off by the for profit companies providing our "healthcare".

AND - here's the thing, personally I want a doctor to make the decisions regarding my healthcare. And I speak from personal and recent experience, when my Dr says I need a procedure or test, I know they are doing that for the best interest of my health. When the insurance company wants to deny or create it difficult to receive the recommendations my Dr has recommended, it is for financial reasons and they could care less about my health. The flip side is I feel like sometimes a clinic will recommend a series of tests - not so much because I need it but because they can charge for it and they know the insurance company will say yes.

Bottom line is we pay WAY too much for healthcare in this country. Individuals and employees alike. It's utter madness that the number 1 reason for personal bankruptcy is health care costs.

This is from 2018 - but some interesting info:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42950587

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Originally Posted by mgh888
Bottom line is we pay WAY too much for healthcare in this country. Individuals and employees alike. It's utter madness that the number 1 reason for personal bankruptcy is health care costs.

Instead we'll go bankrupt from the taxes to pay for government run healthcare. You'll never convince me that a country that is 31 trillion in debt is going to suddenly learn how to reduce costs.


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You'll have that when you perpetuate a corrupt government controlled by corporations and the financial elite.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
It's a simple idea. You either support big pharma and the health insurance companies or you think healthcare is a human right. Almost every industrialized nation in the world considers healthcare a human right but in America we value big business over our own people.

Mass transit on a national scale is a logistical issue that has absolutely nothing to do with healthcare.

I know that transit has nothing to do with health insurance.. I was responding to Arch. Not sure why he added that in.... whatever.

The good thing about the ACA was that 10 years ago, I was 60 and because of my health, I was almost uninsurable. Rates for me to get insurance were nutty.. But the ACA made it so I could get insurance at Reasonable rates... It wasn't great, but I was at least able to get it.

Now, if you listen to republicans like Mitch McConnell and many house members, they want to get rid of or scale back medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. The reason they give is it's running out of money. The fail to tell you that during the Reagan Admin, they borrowed 2 Trillion from Social Security.

The answer isn't to cut it, the RIGHT answer is to FUND it properly.. Step one is for the Republican party to find a way to return the money they borrowed from it..

The other right answer is to cancel the ACA and move towards Medicare for all. Sure, you gotta charge Americans for it. Much more than I'm paying anyway. They are already paying for ACA insurance so what's the difference. It's better insurance than they can buy on the open market when coupled with a supplemental plan.

If you think about why we haven't done that, look no further than big insurance.


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JMHO, you-others, talk about industrial nations having universal medical systems- you're comparing apples with oranges. NO, repeat, No country the size and with numbers USA has can sustain nearly free medical care- and/or the timeliness of that care. Citizens of UK wait months for a simple CAT scan. other simple stuff most of us get in moments. Human health care has become so specialized- a doctor for every single ailment. Years ago, Clinton broached the idea of death panels- who gets what- an example- does it make sense for a country to pay for a knee replacement for 81 year old, who dies six months later.....how many million examples of that does Medicare pay for....who says every American should pay little or nothing for cataract surgery- both eyes- essentially free.....over 100 years ago, the Plain Indians had simple health care system....old, can't keep up....to over to bush and die....we all are going to be dust again.

We got huge problems, I'd suggest, those with the means, should pay a LOT MORE for every hip, shoulder, eye, tooth...on and on than the person who can't.....as a Christian nation, should not the haves give more than the have nots....ps, Trump making 20 million and paying no taxes....how's that fair/ me a retiree paid more than he....WOW. Ain't America great. We need to cap medical care somehow or our grandkids will suffer mightily
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It's not free and isn't free to them wither. It's just far cheaper per person. Everything from prescription costs to the costs of procedures. You see when one entity negotiating prices for an entire country they have a lot of power to drive down costs through negotiations. The fact that America has so many people actually gives them more power to negotiate than smaller nations. Not less.


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I used to work for a UK employer. One of the big selling points to my UK coworkers was the company offered private health insurance so people didn't need to deal with the National health care.

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Originally Posted by FrankZ
I used to work for a UK employer. One of the big selling points to my UK coworkers was the company offered private health insurance so people didn't need to deal with the National health care.


I'm on a form of national healthcare and I love it. Statements like yours don't seem to reflect fact as it pertains to me anyway.


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Originally Posted by FrankZ
I used to work for a UK employer. One of the big selling points to my UK coworkers was the company offered private health insurance so people didn't need to deal with the National health care.

Yep for a price for those who can afford it. Private health insurance has its premiums that must be paid. And don’t tell me your company paid 100% of those premiums.


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I don't know of anyone that is pushing for FREE national healthcare. That would likely be impossible to sustain.

Those of us on Medicare PAY for that insurance. In fact, I've been paying into it for years. I also pay for a supplemental plan.., It's terrific. Best I've ever had in my entire life.


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Why the British love the National Health Service

According to the Commonwealth Fund’s recent survey, 63 percent of those from the U.K. said the NHS worked well.

In contrast, only 25 percent of those from the U.S. said the same about their health system.

https://theconversation.com/why-the-british-love-the-national-health-service-66314

WHY WE LOVE OUR NHS

https://publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/pdf/10.1308/147363513X13690603820586

We do already have a national healthcare system called medicare. If you desire better coverage you can purchase supplemental insurance to cover even more at a very affordable price. Anecdotal evidence does not describe the big picture as it pertains to the Brits.


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Originally Posted by PerfectSpiral
Originally Posted by FrankZ
I used to work for a UK employer. One of the big selling points to my UK coworkers was the company offered private health insurance so people didn't need to deal with the National health care.

Yep for a price for those who can afford it. Private health insurance has its premiums that must be paid. And don’t tell me your company paid 100% of those premiums.

I didn't get health care through the UK office so I don't know what was paid. I know that people I talked to were happy to have it and not have to deal with the National health care.

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Originally Posted by FrankZ
I used to work for a UK employer. One of the big selling points to my UK coworkers was the company offered private health insurance so people didn't need to deal with the National health care.

Private healthcare is STILL available to those that want to pay for it in the UK. What a great concept - you can choose and have the RIGHT to 'free healthcare' (paid by all out of their tax) or you can choose to pay for private care which has the benefit of shorter wait times. Some companies offer private coverage as a perk - a bit like providing a company car.

But there is a world of difference - a galaxy of difference - between the lucky ones receiving subsidized or free private health care as a perk for their job and asking the Nation if they want to pay double the cost on all healthcare and prescriptions and move to a ONLY for profit healthcare system as we have in the USA.

The argument that I occasionally see from people who don't live in the RoTW where there is free nationalized healthcare - that they know someone who lives in such and such a country and they complain about the wait times or they prefer their private coverage is anecdotal and in the grand scheme of things meaningless. 77%+ of the population in the UK believes the NHS is a vital part of their society. Find me any movement or issue in the US with that much support!

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/what-does-public-think-about-nhs

Last edited by mgh888; 01/06/23 09:42 AM.

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They pay for that Healthcare with a 20% VAT tax (national sales tax) How well do you think that would go over here


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Oh, it wouldn't go over at all because the uneducated rule here.


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Originally Posted by EveDawg
They pay for that Healthcare with a 20% VAT tax (national sales tax) How well do you think that would go over here

The rich hate paying taxes wherever they live. Usually that doesn’t stop them from buying what they want and paying for it including taxes. Everyone else can have their measly NHC.


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Originally Posted by EveDawg
They pay for that Healthcare with a 20% VAT tax (national sales tax) How well do you think that would go over here

That's not actually how it works. But yes, tax dollars pay for the NHS. VAT is one form of tax much like a national sales tax. It's already baked into the cost of goods when you see a price at the store and many essentials like food are exempt. There is a National health contribution deduct from paychecks but capped. Then we have all the other forms of tax, like income and inheritance tax.... What we don't have is a 15% premium from our paycheck for health insurance to a private company that will then try to deny claims if it can get away with it.

Simple question, If the USA pays twice as much per capita on Healthcare costs than they do in the UK, do you think it matters whether it's a tax or an invoice from a private company or a deductible from paycheck that isn't a tax??

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Actually the issue here is to deflect ..yes deflect, that the IRS was bribed into not auditing trumps taxes. Has nothing to do with healthcare costs.

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Originally Posted by PerfectSpiral
Actually the issue here is to deflect ..yes deflect, that the IRS was bribed into not auditing trumps taxes. Has nothing to do with healthcare costs.

Isn't it funny how that works LOL


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Funny sad.


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Wait are you saying when trump said he couldnt release his taxes because he was being audited. That he wasnt being audited? So why didnt he release his taxes? I guess he didnt know he wasnt being audited, because he would never lie. Im sooo c superconfusedonfused



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Originally Posted by PerfectSpiral
Actually the issue here is to deflect ..yes deflect, that the IRS was bribed into not auditing trumps taxes. Has nothing to do with healthcare costs.

One has nothing to do with another. It's possible to discuss both, separately.


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Maybe.


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How'd health care discussion get on Trump's IRS returns not being completed as per current law. Strange. But normal.


Trump always lies, delays, deflects, fake news, blame it on someone else- standard Trump. Plus, never forget, he hires, says they are greatest, then throws them under the bus quickly. Or, as President, he pardoned as many sleazebags as possible- Stone, Flynn, etc.- all great Americans, except they don't support the Constitution- just like the former President who attempted to steal the election.

Got to love a guy who supported the folks screaming and searching for Pence.....Hang Pence....great folks.


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Originally Posted by hitt
How'd health care discussion get on Trump's IRS returns not being completed as per current law. Strange. But normal.


Trump always lies, delays, deflects, fake news, blame it on someone else- standard Trump. Plus, never forget, he hires, says they are greatest, then throws them under the bus quickly. Or, as President, he pardoned as many sleazebags as possible- Stone, Flynn, etc.- all great Americans, except they don't support the Constitution- just like the former President who attempted to steal the election.

Got to love a guy who supported the folks screaming and searching for Pence.....Hang Pence....great folks.


And yet the trump apologists continue to give him a free pass on his deplorable behavior. All is good in trumpville.


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