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FATE #2006431 03/08/23 04:27 PM
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And it will also play out in the end.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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So... these are not the 'droids I was looking for. Got it.


HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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I have no idea what you were looking for. It certainly seems as though facts aren't what you're looking for.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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"You play to win the game."

The goal is and should be win the Super Bowl.

Most on this Board want to win the Super Bowl. I think I remember posts saying winning is all that counts.

The front office does the future planning. They signed DW to a five year deal. The goal is to win the Super Bowl.

After five years the goal will remain.

So, I do not think posters are saying the future be damned.

After five years if all goes well. They will try to resign DW. And players that are now on the team? Many will be gone. Vets will be cut as cap casualties. New draft picks will take roster spots. Players maybe traded. Some will retire. And the goals will remain the same.

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j/c

To my read(s), I think most everyone on this board is within about an eyelash of the other when it comes to the cap, the talent, FA, the draft, front office, coaching, etc. The extent to each is the only noticeable outlier depending on the topic. Example:

Some think Ski needs to do a better job but shouldn't be canned...yet anyway. Some think Ski is the guy but needs to do some things better. Those debates get rather 'hairy' at times, but those opinions aren't all that far apart. It's rare to see an opinion that Ski needs canned today...or...that Ski should be here forever.

You could probably plug that sentence into other topis listed ^ and the statement would still be reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog

j/c...so don't get your panties in a wad:

Re-structuring does not CREATE cap space...it simply does not. It instead pushes cap dollars around. That's ok...that's how the rules were written...but there is no CREATION going on.

It's like when people babble to me about tax loopholes...there aren't any tax loopholes...the rules are written as they are written. There might be unintended consequences...but no loopholes and no cap creation - unless you cut a guy or he retires.

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...if you dig a hole, did you not create a hole? The dirt had to go somewhere else, but you still created a hole where you wanted it.

When talking about cap space, the salaries you have are basically the dirt filling the hole (cap space) you have. In this case, when you dig out cap space in the current "hole," you move it to the future's bigger hole. You can do this over and over again, and you are definitely creating space in the current hole. You can still only fit so much in the current cap space, but creating space allows you to change the overall composition of what's in the hole/on your team.


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Yes, restructuring just kicks the can down the road further. Teams that feel they have a shot keep kicking the can until they feel their window closed and then they pay the piper and start all over again. The Browns will kick the can each year until they feel this team no longer has a window to compete. At that time, they will pay the piper so to speak. That is why all of the crocodile tears some posters have been writing about our cap space is over blown to a point. It is like using a credit card and making the minimum payment possible until there comes a time that you have to pay off that credit card. Maybe an NFL version of Bernie Sanders will come along and offer debt forgiveness for teams!!!


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
j/c

Patrick Mahomes will account for 22.7% of the Chiefs adjusted cap for 2023. DeShaun Watson will account for 22.29% of the Browns cap before any re-structuring. (link) Yet, Mahomes deal was lauded as a great deal for the Chiefs, and Watson's deal is bemoaned as a horrible thing for the Browns.

Like most things, perspective has an influence.

I don't know this but I wonder if Watsons off field issues are why it was bemoaned. That's legit thinking that I share. I've always been a "character" matters kinda guy. But not everyone sees it that way.


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The loss of draft picks..3 first round picks plus whatever else the Browns gave up should be added to the cost, imo.




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Originally Posted by mac
The loss of draft picks..3 first round picks plus whatever else the Browns gave up should be added to the cost, imo.

It's a HUGE part of the cost.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
j/c

Patrick Mahomes will account for 22.7% of the Chiefs adjusted cap for 2023. DeShaun Watson will account for 22.29% of the Browns cap before any re-structuring. (link) Yet, Mahomes deal was lauded as a great deal for the Chiefs, and Watson's deal is bemoaned as a horrible thing for the Browns.

Like most things, perspective has an influence.

I don't know this but I wonder if Watsons off field issues are why it was bemoaned. That's legit thinking that I share. I've always been a "character" matters kinda guy. But not everyone sees it that way.

I get the character side. Yet, that hasn't really been brought up much here on the boards recently. It's all been about his cap hit and potential future cap hits. It's like they've been arguing over and over that the sky is blue. Yes, that's the way it is. A veteran QB has a big cap hit. The sky is blue. That's just the way things work.

If the argument is you don't like the cap hit because of the character, there's something there to argue about and have different opinions on. If the argument is effectively that you don't like the cap hit because of the cap hit, it seems rather specious. That's the way it works for every contract. What's spent on one player can't be spent somewhere else. The sky's still blue.

If they wanted to argue they don't think they should spend x% of the cap on a QB, tell us what percentage they find is acceptable and why. Certain posters telling us the facts of the contract over and over and expecting us to blindly agree that the facts themselves are somehow bad has grown rather tiresome. It is what it is. The team can work with it. The sky's not falling, and it's still blue.


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A lot of the argument also centers around one huge factor. Guaranteed money. In the end that's all an NFL contract is really worth. And watson's contract is worth every penny of that 230 million. That's not so for every other QB in the NFL.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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And we already paid some of it since one year is gone although off hand I don't know how much.

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I'm, not looking for some drawn out debate here. But watson's contract was restructured last year so that the salary cap hit was only 9.4 million for last year. That's why it increased over the remaining four years. If they restructure it again this year it will only increase even more over the remaining three years.

Quote
A restructure of Deshaun Watson's fully guaranteed contract "could be on the table" in the words of Cleveland Browns general manager Andrew Berry.

Watson was a bargain for the Browns in 2022, the first year of his five-year, $230 million deal. He had a $9.4 million salary cap hit.

Starting in 2023, the three-time Pro Bowler's on-field value will be reflected in his cap number. He'll count for nearly $55 million in each of the next four seasons, thus giving Cleveland an obvious reason to rework his overall payouts.

Per Over the Cap, a restructure would save $33.7 million for the upcoming year, and that money could be spread across the roster or allocated for a marquee addition in free agency.

While the Browns would be getting some short-term financial relief, they'd still have to navigate around the fact that Watson is set to earn every penny of his $230 million one way or the other.

Lowering his cap hit now means Cleveland will pay more later if it maintains the current five-year term.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...-be-on-the-table-per-browns-andrew-berry


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Cash wise, the Browns paid Watson 46M in 2022. Cap wise though, the Browns only accounted for $9,395,500 of the 230M so they are still responsible for $220,704,500 for cap charges the next 4 years as of today.


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Thank you for the response gentlemen. So, after this coming season we will probably owe him no more guaranteed money than some QB that signs a new deal this year roughly speaking.

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That will depend on if Berry restructures him again or not. If Berry does the same type of restructure as expected, the Browns would still owe cap charges of $198,669,000 over the last 3 years of his deal or $66,223,000 per season in cap charges. That would be close to 20M more than any other QB under contract today in cap charges.

Just an FYI, that would mean the Browns will have accounted for only $31,331,000 in two years for the 230M fully guaranteed contract.


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If this years restructure is anything like last years, which would, let's round it off to the closest million and call it 10 million against the cap, that would leave a balance of over 210 million over the three remaining years of his contract. And no, I don't know of any NFL team that would be paying their QB 70 million dollars a year, do you? Now they may pay him more than 10 mil against the cap this year on a restructured deal. The rumor being floated is that it will balloon the remaining portion of his contract to over 64 million per year for the remaining three years of his contract and I don't know of an NFL team paying that much to their QB either.

If you mean the total of guaranteed money I haven't seen anything close to that 230 mil on the table for any QB on the FA market.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
If this years restructure is anything like last years, which would, let's round it off to the closest million and call it 10 million against the cap, that would leave a balance of over 210 million over the three remaining years of his contract. And no, I don't know of any NFL team that would be paying their QB 70 million dollars a year, do you? Now they may pay him more than 10 mil against the cap this year on a restructured deal. The rumor being floated is that it will balloon the remaining portion of his contract to over 64 million per year for the remaining three years of his contract and I don't know of an NFL team paying that much to their QB either.

If you mean the total of guaranteed money I haven't seen anything close to that 230 mil on the table for any QB on the FA market.

You're off on a this year cost of 10M again because they are locked into $8,993,000 from the first restructure and another $11.500,000 from this year's restructure and the $1,210,000 minimum salary for a total cap cost of $21,703,000 for 2023.

An interesting possibility is the Browns can move some of the money into void years (this would then be tacked on to any new deal) but to do that, Watson must agree and then the guarantee is no longer valid but Watson must agree to the new contract without guarantees. In case you're asking why, you can't guarantee money in non-contract years which includes void years. Such a move would then have no player with a fully guaranteed deal in the NFL.


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So, here's the big problem with the Watson deal. As you can probably see from all the posts, teams are letting players go all over the NFL. It's a move every team goes thru every off season to create cap space for that season. The second way teams create this cap space is by restructuring deals and spreading that cost across 5 or less years as prorated bonuses. The key to this type of cap manipulation is the ability to get out of said contracts if deemed necessary with minimal dead money cost (usually caused by the prorated bonuses.) The cap savings always comes from the base salary. These cuts and restructures always occur after the player has used up the guarantees within their contract so the team can move on or not get double dipped.

Watson is an entirely different story because he has a 100% fully guaranteed contract. No matter what the Browns do outside of signing Watson to another deal, they will have to pay the entire 230M guaranteed contract. There is no out and the bill will come due much sooner than people think unless of course Watson signs a new deal without the guarantee - highly unlikely.

The problem is the Browns already have the highest amount of prorated dollars in bonuses in the NFL The Browns also have the most players under contracts valued over 10M per year. When you continually move those super high salaries to prorated bonuses you are eliminating your opportunity to rid yourself of those players without huge dead money. Johnson will cost the Browns 3.75M this year and 8.85M next year after playing only 2 of a 3-year deal but more importantly, of his original 33.75M deal, the Browns are saving 9.5M in salary but still owe the cap 12.6M in prorated bonuses they haven't accounted for yet. That's 37.33% of Johnson's original deal the Browns still have to account for on their cap even though he's no longer on the team.

They have a like situation with Hooper from last year and to a lesser extent Clowney who the now must claim a 6.4M cap charge this year.


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Let's cut to the chase. Are you saying that our salary cap problems will prohibit us from being players in free agency this year? Didn't you say that we were going to lose Conklin for the same salary cap problems?

Here is the thing. The salary cap is not like real-life economics. It was put in place by the owners to help them line their pockets and to assist w/parity across the league. These owners are not going to go broke over these large contracts. They can always adjust the cap to maintain competitive balance. MLB, the NBA, and the NHL have guaranteed contracts. They are doing fine and they are not even close to the NFL in terms of popularity.

The key is to learn to manipulate the cap by using multiple methods. Kicking the can down the road is not the negative you make it out to be. It's part of the manipulation process because the owners are not going to run out of money.

There will be tough cuts, restructuring, etc, etc.

The question I really want to focus on is are you claiming the Browns won't be able to be players in free agency this year? If not, why all the hand-wringing and gnashing of the teeth? This isn't even close to us working stiffs trying to manage our bank accounts.

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Plus, every year the cap will go up so that should alleviate some of the pressure on us to cut players.

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We will have to cut players., just like every other team out there. None of this is breaking news.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the final regular season cap is the top 51 players on the team, right? Hoiw does dead cap figure into this, when a player is gone?


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Originally Posted by YTownBrownsFan
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the final regular season cap is the top 51 players on the team, right? Hoiw does dead cap figure into this, when a player is gone?

Never mind, that's pre-season. crazy


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Cutting players to save money is something new? Others did not know that? LMAO, stevie has it bad.

Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Once again, you are celebrating bad news for the Browns. What a sad, little man.

Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Let's cut to the chase. Are you saying that our salary cap problems will prohibit us from being players in free agency this year? Didn't you say that we were going to lose Conklin for the same salary cap problems?

Here is the thing. The salary cap is not like real-life economics. It was put in place by the owners to help them line their pockets and to assist w/parity across the league. These owners are not going to go broke over these large contracts. They can always adjust the cap to maintain competitive balance. MLB, the NBA, and the NHL have guaranteed contracts. They are doing fine and they are not even close to the NFL in terms of popularity.

The key is to learn to manipulate the cap by using multiple methods. Kicking the can down the road is not the negative you make it out to be. It's part of the manipulation process because the owners are not going to run out of money.

There will be tough cuts, restructuring, etc, etc.

The question I really want to focus on is are you claiming the Browns won't be able to be players in free agency this year? If not, why all the hand-wringing and gnashing of the teeth? This isn't even close to us working stiffs trying to manage our bank accounts.

I respectfully made a gentleman's agreement with you and I'm mature enough to stay within those boundaries. You though, not so much.


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All this cap talk, Steve, is more boring than that time I went clam digging in the Bay of Fundy. Luckily, free agency starts next week, so I will be much less bored.


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You pulled those quotes from somewhere else.

I want to focus on my last post. Are the Browns going to be able to sign players in FA this year or is their poor handling of the salary cap going to prohibit them from doing so?

There is animosity in that question.

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This is interesting. Be sure to check out the link that says: "Head to the public salary cap dashboard for more: http://bit.ly"




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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
This is interesting. Be sure to check out the link that says: "Head to the public salary cap dashboard for more: http://bit.ly"




I posted this yesterday and no one commented. That's interesting. Here is more information on what it means.



Browns second in cash, not cap, spending in 2022

Owner Jimmy Haslam is always willing to doll out the cash

By JaredMueller@JaredKMueller Mar 12, 2023, 10:59am EDT 0 Comments / 0 New

For all the failures of Cleveland Browns owner Jimmy Haslam, the man is willing to spend money at a high level. While fans and the media focus on the salary cap, players and agents care far more about how much cash is being spent by teams.

Cash is also very helpful for GM Andrew Berry. That Haslam is willing to pay out big bonuses right away, gives Berry a lot of flexibility within the salary cap.

With the 2023 NFL free agency about to open, the NFLPA is opening up the vault of information over the last few weeks. First, it was the players’ survey that brought a lot of attention to a variety of teams. Then, we covered this morning that the NFLPA called out the Cincinnati Bengals publicly.

We also got information from the Players’ Association about cash spending and their salary cap data from last year. Partially, but nowhere near totally, due to the Deshaun Watson contract, the Browns were second in cash spending last season:



Cleveland is almost double the lowest cash spender, the Dallas Cowboys.

Interestingly, when you look at the salary cap from last year, the Browns were the only team to spend less than $200 million in salary cap in 2022.

Cash is king in the NFL and Haslam, as proven by his agreement to purchase a stake in the Milwaukee Bucks, has the cash and is willing to spend. Juxtapose that with the Bengals trying to cut players’ workers’ compensation rights and, perhaps, Cleveland has a leg up on their in-state rival in one way.


https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2023/...ns-salary-cap-cash-spending-jimmy-haslam

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People probably didn't comment because it's actually not that relevant to the salary cap situation moving forward.


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Explain how it's not relevant. I'm guessing you did not check out the link that showed each teams cap room? Or maybe, you want to continue deceiving people?

Here is the direct link for any trustworthy posters who want to view the information: https://nflpa.com/reports/public-salary-cap-report

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I'm not deceiving anyone. We sit here and watch posts of team after team making player cuts to get under the salary cap. So far the Browns keep kicking that can down the road. It catches up. There's nothing deceitful about that. But you just keep doing you.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Once again, how is that information not relevant?

Btw------I am not the one who provided the information. The NFLPA released that report. The article from Dawgs by Nature confirmed that it was very helpful to Berry as he manages the cap.

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Maybe you should try to comprehend this a little better.... "the salary cap situation moving forward".


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LOL.......Please explain how having more cap room not helping the salary cap situation moving forward? Do you really not get the "cash" angle of this and how it provides us flexibility?

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I get that it addresses nothing that pertains to what the browns salary cap will look like in the future and how pushing all of this guaranteed money down the road will impact them negatively. But that's how selective information works. When you selectively give part of the information while leaving out much more of the information you can paint any picture you like. However that is beginning to be a much more poplular theme these days.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Likes: 906
Once again, the phrase that ends with "........................and remove all doubt" aptly applies to you.

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