DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Key to "winning"...talent evaluation..(continued)

I'm going to focus this post on the Browns most recent owners and how they have played a role in building the present Browns team. The Haslams bought the team in 2012 and began assembling their management team from that point on.

Talent evaluation begins with the owners and their ability to identify and hire the personnel who are going to be running the team for the owners. The following article gives us some background on the Haslams and their struggles as owners of the Browns...


BROWNS
Haslams say Steelers experience didn't prep them to own Browns: 'You don't know anything'
Nate Ulrich
Akron Beacon Journal


Published 5:24 p.m. ET March 31, 2022 | Updated 8:23 p.m. ET March 31, 2022

PALM BEACH, Fla. — When Jimmy and Dee Haslam bought the Browns in 2012, their previous roles as minority owners of the Pittsburgh Steelers instilled confidence in much of Cleveland's fan base.

Oops! Those black-and-gold ties turned out to be fool's gold.

While the Haslams reflected Tuesday on their upcoming 10-year anniversary as Browns owners, they explained purchasing a stake in the AFC North rival Steelers in 2008 didn't prepare them whatsoever to run an NFL franchise.

“No, no. You don't know anything,” Dee Haslam said during the NFL owners meetings at The Breakers Palm Beach resort.

Cleveland Browns owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam leave the field during organized team activities at the Cleveland Browns training facility.
The Haslams actually described themselves as being lulled into a false sense of security because of their Steelers experience, which included Pittsburgh winning the Super Bowl to end the 2008 season.

“You go, 'That's a model franchise. Just do it like them,'” Jimmy Haslam said. “But you're not the ones making the decisions, and the people were already in place. [General Manager] Kevin Colbert was already there. [Coach] Mike Tomlin was already there. [The late Dan] Rooney was still there. So you had he and Art [Rooney II leading the organization].

“It was smooth running. [Quarterback Ben] Roethlisberger was a young man. We joined in '07. [Roethlisberger] was just coming into his own. With [Hall of Fame safety Troy] Polamalu, I mean, you go, 'This doesn't seem very hard.'

“We get Super Bowl rings before we even pay for our share. Listen, in business, the hiring cycle is different. There are usually people to train you. The NFL is great, but you've all heard us say this: There's no primer.”

Jimmy Haslam and his wife, Dee, talk before the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Oakland Raiders game Nov. 21, 2010 in Pittsburgh, Penn. Jimmy Haslam became a partner in the Pittsburgh Steelers in 2008.

Jimmy Haslam laments lack of wins Cleveland Browns have compiled under his ownership with wife, Dee
The Haslams struck a deal to buy the Browns for about $1 billion in August 2012, and NFL owners unanimously approved their purchase a few months later in October.

The Browns have gone 52-108-1 in their 10 seasons during the Haslam era. They have earned one winning record and one playoff berth during the span (when they went 11-5 in 2020 and defeated the Steelers in the wild-card round). They finished in the fourth and final spot in the division from 2012-17 and placed third from 2018-21.

“We did a lousy job at first,” Jimmy Haslam said. “I mean, let's just face it. It's probably fair to say we didn't know what we were doing. In some ways, I go, '10 years, we haven't won very many games.' So I look at it that way.”

Of course, the team's historically poor stretch of 1-31 in the 2016-17 seasons is part of the Haslams' legacy.

“It's been really hard,” Dee Haslam said. “I mean, it's been a hard 10 years.”

“Has it been hard, way harder than we thought, a lot of bumps in the road?” Jimmy Haslam added. “Yeah, but, I mean, it's a privilege to be part of the NFL and own a team, particularly in a community like Cleveland. So we feel blessed and fortunate and excited about going forward.”


Crew co-owners Dee Haslam, center, and Jimmy Haslem, right, also are owners of the Cleveland Browns.
Controversial Deshaun Watson trade 'the most consequential' decision of the Haslam era in Cleveland
So what's next for the Browns under the Haslams?

They believe the team, coming off an 8-9 season, is positioned to contend after the organization's controversial March 18 trade with the Houston Texans for quarterback Deshaun Watson. Watson is an elite talent, but his off-field baggage and the Browns' massive investment in him comes with risks.


Despite two dozen women accusing Watson of sexual misconduct or sexual assault during massage appointments, the Browns traded six draft picks, including three in the first round, to the Texans and gave the three-time Pro Bowl selection a five-year contract worth a record-setting $230 million fully guaranteed.

Watson has denied all wrongdoing, and two Texas grand juries declined on March 11 and March 24 to indict him on 10 criminal complaints. He faces 22 active civil lawsuits. Even without being charged, Watson could still be suspended under the NFL's personal conduct policy.


“Of the decisions we've made with the Browns, this was the most consequential one,” Jimmy Haslam said, “and we spent more time working on it than anything else.”

More from the NFL owners meetings:Cleveland Browns brush off criticism over record-setting Deshaun Watson contract

Jimmy and Dee Haslam have made many changes since buying Cleveland Browns nearly 10 years ago
The Haslams acknowledge they have cycled through coaches and front-office executives at a stunning rate. They have fired two head coaches — Rob Chudzinski (2013) and Freddie Kitchens (2019) — after just one season on the job.

Kevin Stefanski is the sixth full-time head coach and General Manager Andrew Berry is the sixth head of football operations to work for the Haslams in Cleveland.

Stefanski and Berry will become the first head coach-GM tandem to enter a third season intact under the Haslams.

“That says a lot, doesn't it?” Jimmy Haslam said. “It's everything.”

The Haslams signed Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta to a five-year contract extension in 2020, the same year Stefanski and Berry were hired and received deals of the same length.

“We just didn't do a good job [hiring] here initially,” Jimmy Haslam said, “but I think we think with Kevin and Andrew and with Paul, we've got a really good group in place.

“They work great together. It makes it way easier on us.”

Added Dee Haslam: "I think that's been fun. We're having fun."


Jimmy Haslam has high expectations for next season, but knows success in 'stacked' AFC isn't guaranteed


Yet so much hinges on the sport's most important position. Before the Watson deal, the last major splash the Browns made at quarterback was drafting Baker Mayfield first overall in 2018.

“We’re a better football team now than we were then,” Jimmy Haslam said. “Let me say we’re a better organization, OK? Andrew and Kevin help that tremendously — and our staff — so I feel better organizationally about where we are, and I feel better about the team.

“I feel better about the quarterback, but we’ve still got to produce. The AFC is stacked, and you all know how tough our division is.

“This is a challenging schedule, but I think directionally we’re heading in the right place, and we would say we feel better than we did in ’18.”

Cleveland Browns will likely look much different:With Deshaun Watson aboard, Kevin Stefanski doesn't rule out wholesale changes to offense.

link

I think Dee and Jimmy Haslam realize heir past mistakes and have finally gotten our beloved Browns on the right track!!!!

Harder on some than others.

...and I thought you were supposed to call the doctor if it's been a hard 4 hours.

Say whaaaat?

Well Gee and Dimmy... that's how I thought it, .. Dee and Jimmy? Just because they have a lot of money they get to make all the decisions, I mean it is not like they are football savants, I mean what I'm trying to say is, they are not exactly,
I mean, Just b/c they built up Pilot Flying J doesn't mean they know dirt about putting a winner on the field in an NFL program.
Maybe it means they know a bit about running a super big business but getting ten wins in the AFC?

@uantity may have a @uality all its own, but the NFL doesn't reward @uantity b/c, the rules give the same number of games to every franchise.
so. If you can/could make a Billion dollars by taking the @uantity of a healthy business, like flying J, and reproduce it a multitude of times until you get a billion dollars, it doesn't make you the best at putting a football team in the NFL.
like,
manufacturing a zillion guitars wouldn't make you Jimmy Hendrix, in fact,
It wouldn't even mean you could tell Jimmy Hendrix from Jimmy bag o donuts in finding a better guitar player
but the bottom line is you have the owners making the decisions, and they decided to go with,
Berry, Depodesta, and the head coach and stuff.
and look,
well,
there are mixed results.

I think so too. They aren't cheap and invested significant amount of money into players as well the Berea complex.....not to mention the community as well (Breakthough Schools for those familiar with the program among other things). That said, I think have been very slow to react to what they've learned since 2012 (which makes me wonder if they've learned a whole lot on the aggregate) and that does not inspire me much. Couple the fact that Jimmy comes across as easily swayed by impulse and JW is waiting in the wings does not give me an exorbitant amount of confidence for the future.

The best thing the Haslems have done is step away from the camera and press podium in recent years and let the FO do their thing. Not sure if that has been the case entirely, but the optics sure look like it.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I agree with most of this. I probably have a little confidence in the Haslams than you however, I half expect Jimmy to screw something up because he can't help himself. I already think their organizational structure where everyone reports directly to Haslam is flawed. Absolutely, agree about J-Dubs. My concerns grow as he gains more and more influence within the organization.

Let's hope for success on the field so the stewards of the franchise remain on the sidelines.

I probably have a bit more confidence in the direction of the team than many, but this J-Dubs guy makes me very nervous. I agree that it seems as if he is gaining more and more influence and I think he's a loose cannon. He's so weird that he seems almost like a character in a cheesy movie where the hero has to overcome J-Dubs arrogance, ignorance, and undisciplined personality.

I wonder how many owners are prepared to be own NFL teams? Are our owners the only ones who are not? LMAO...........this is the kind of crap talk that makes this place a joke. Take a comment made by one of owners and assign all kinds of blame and importance to it when she was just being honest. Get the hell outta here w/that BS.

Then we have a comment about over-hyped expectations? Where did that come from? Almost every prognosticator I read said we would win 6 games this year. We won 7. Is that over-hyped? Did Jimmy or Dee say we were going to the Super Bowl? I might have missed that.

As far as the Watson trade goes.............thank God the owners and FO had the stones to dump a qb who will be lucky to have a job next year for a qb who has been a top 10 QB in this league. That took a lot of stones and I applaud them for admitting that Baker Mayfield was a mistake and sending him packing to be someone else's problem and finding a legit QB. There are no guarantees in this league, but they made a wise decision and at least we now have a shot. We had no shot w/Baker and guys like Jimmy G, Cousins, Wentz, etc were not the answer either.

Y'all can complain as much as you want, but some of us are also allowed to support the team.

A difference of opinion does not = complaining


And some are allowed to be critical while still rooting for the team (or even not)...shoot...posters are even allowed to continually trash a player and then leave the board altogether when that player has some success in leading the team to the playoffs and the 2nd playoff win in ~ 30 years. Weird.

I think you are being purposefully being obtuse but I'll play along. It means that good intentions lead to failure unless you can make those plans work. That although your intentions may be good that doesn't mean anything if you don't have a plan in place that works. If you have a losing culture your intentions didn't really matter. If the end results are negative the intentions failed.

The difference, which you refused to include, is that new owners either have the ability to hire people that make a team successful or they don't. Owners don't make the game plans, call the plays or coach the teams. What they do is decide who to hire to run the day to day operations. So as it pertains to the thread, their ability to successfully evaluate talent is the very beginning of the talent evaluation process from the FO on down. Are you trying to say that all new owners have had the record of failure the Halslams have had because they "weren't ready to be owners"?

No problem.

Without question, the Browns have a few great players on their roster. Unfortunately, history tells us (for at least 20 plus years) that the Browns have never had a complete roster so their ability to judge talent over the years is suspect at best. If you just look at the Berry reign, he's less than 30% successful at this point and that does not build a winner. Just look at WR for example, Cooper has been a good move and DPJ has surprised, but Schwartz is a miss, Bradley is a miss, Cager is a miss, Felton is a miss, Darden is a miss, Rodgers is a miss, Bell disappointed as a rookie, and big question marks with Woods and Baldwin. When you look at some of the other teams getting good play from their rookies, you have to wonder why the Browns cannot. At just WR draft and acquisitions then, that's 1 hit, 1 surprise, 6 clear misses, 1 disappointment, and 2 question marks all acquired during Berry's reign. If we go to DT the results are even worse than WR before I even actually check. LB has also been suspect and safety continues to be a question mark. This isn't being negative, it's just the facts of the situation and brings into question Berry's ability to judge talent. Getting (giving the benefit of the doubt) 2 hits, 6 misses, 1 disappointment, and 2 questionable draft picks/acquisitions over 3-years (18% success rate) is not evaluating talent very well and that's just at WR and the sole reason the Browns are still looking to upgrade the position after 3-years of effort.

There are one of two possibilities yet people will argue that it's neither. Either the drafting at the WR has been terrible or the coaching of the WR's has been terrible. I'm not expert enough to know which one of those two it is.

It's not difficult
Draft WRs who dominated against elite college CBs or great college
CBs. None of the Browns drafted WRs check those boxes

That number is arbitrary but a roughly 30% hit rate sounds good to me , however,I also don't believe in any late round player (5th round on) should ever being considered a miss. The chances of these players making a significant impact are extremely low and are usually replaced in FA or a following draft. If they land and are considered a hit, it's all an added bonus. However, it goes FAR beyond that percentage as any sort of litmus test for a GM, or a team's, success. This is coming from someone who really believes in building through the draft, especially when rebuilding. A team could have a 30% hit rate overall in the draft and if they still don't have a franchise QB, that team probably isn't going far. Conversely, if a team has a lower than 30% hit rate, but hit on a franchise QB, I'm guessing that player elevates everyone else around him offensively, and the team, more so than the alternative. It may also encourage FAs to come here that elevate a teams talent and depth.

There's a difference in the top FA's willingness to come to Cleveland and Cleveland having the ability to pay top FA's.

The hit rate of 30% was an approximation and includes FA signings, trades, and players who were drafted. The WR group is at a 18% hit rate with the only clear starter being a trade acquisition in Cooper. If you add all those in as was denoted in the post, 30% is putrid while a 18% hit at WR (giving Berry a hit on DPJ) is just disgusting for a GM. But it wasn't just WR, Berry's hit rate at DT is significantly worse than 18% (hard to believe) because he has zero hits at the position and LB has been just so so. The thread is about player evaluation - do you really believe with Berry's documented record at providing players for the positions of WR, DT, and LB makes him a good evaluator of talent? Ask yourself this question, how many teams in the AFC does DPJ or Bell start for in the AFC. How many teams is Cooper a solid #1 WR on in the AFC?

Interesting article and explains a lot.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...choice-packers-patriots-49ers-in-top-10/

Memphis, I am pretty much in align with your thoughts.

In my opinion, I have seen a few times in the last year or two something in the realm that Berry isn't good at drafting WRs, can't evaluate WRs, or needs to improve at drafting WRs. I just don't agree with those statements...the *needs to improve* I can give a pass but the rest I disagree. Namely for the reason you mentioned about the hit rate and rounds.

If I had to give my grade so far on Berry bringing in WRs (i.e. draft/FA) I would give him an incomplete. Reason being is he really hasn't focused much on upgrading the position in the past 3 years in my opinion. In years past, when AB has had a problem area he has went full board on improving it.

This past year, he acquired Cooper, great job. Grant was a possibility for the slot, though it was to fill the returner need. We really haven't went after any other major FA acquistion at that spot. As for the draft, David Bell and Schwartz could fall under the disappointing, but Schwartz was more of a project (and negative pick b/c of the round he was picked) and Bell I didn't expect a major contribution his first year (so he falls under the TBD area for me). So those third rounders do hurt, but at least Bell did have quite a bit of playing time. Felton and Woods III fall under late round picks and hoping to find gold, besides...Felton, I am assuming was supposedly drafted to be a RB/returner. The rest of the names fall under the undrafted, hoping to find a gem.

DPJ was an 8th rounder I wouldn't normally count against a GM. The reason I am counting him is because he has exceeded his late draft round. So to this point is a thumbs up for the draft team on DPJ.

What would have changed my thought process is if we signed a high priced FA (or aquired like we did with Cooper) and he busted or if we drafted a first or second rounder and he busted. At that point, I would be very disappointed in Berry and his evaluations of the WR position.

As most are saying, this draft/FA period is big for Berry (though we could and have said that every year).

Great post - I think you hit the nail right on the head!

Listen, guys, give the coach bashing a break; I got it from a reliable source that everything will be alright.

So, Mahomes has nothing to do w/their success? Having the best QB in all of football doesn't even deserve a mention? And his willingness to spread his money out over 10 years hasn't helped the Chiefs acquire and retain talent? And none of their best players were acquired before the current regime was even in place? And they didn't get a bundle in return for trading Hill, who was chosen by Dorsey?

Nope, the board geniuses think the only reason why they won is because the current regime is so good at identifying talent and how great their staff is at developing them.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with drafting multiple contributors in a single draft. Like 5 or 6 of them in a single draft. We both know that any team has to have a LOT of players on rookie deals and cheap FA contracts to pay their stars. In this case that gives them five players from a single draft that will all be on rookie deals for three more years and contributing on game day barring injury.

We both know that's of critical importance. What does that have to do with Mahomes? This is about talent evaluation. But you do you.

You are not sure what any of what I said has to do w/KC winning the Super Bowl? LMAO

I don't see where it has anything to do with evaluating draft talent in regards to having multiple draft picks playing as starters and filling much of your roster with bargain players so you can pay those huge contracts like Mahomes has.

See it all works together. I'll give you an example using the Browns. The top four highest paid players on the Browns roster eat up over half of the 2023 cap space. Over 123 million in fact. That's just watson, Garrett, Cooper and Teller. If you add in the cap hits for Chubb, Bitonio, Johnson and ward the picture looks even clearer.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/cap/

So that means one of the most critical parts of a GM's job is to hit and hit big on mid round draft picks and undervalued FA's in order to maintain enough money to pay those high priced players. You have to have a LOT of lower paid players on your roster in order to manage that. Mac didn't mention winning a SB. I mean that's who you attributed your response to so I thought that's the post you were addressing.

Of course Mahomes is the biggest contributing factors to winning the SB. But to pay Mahomes and his talented offense around him, you have to be able to load the field with players on rookie contracts and low paid FA's.

So no, I don't see where bringing up Mahomes addresses any of that. This used to be even something you yourself posted about and promoted. So I'm not sure why your avoiding it now.

Of course you don't. You just want to fight and aide others in trashing our FO and coaching staff.

mac said:


I responded to that nonsense w/my points about Mahomes greatness, drafts and acquisitions made before the current FO was in place, Mahomes spreading his money out so KC could keep players and sign players, etc.

Let's do a little hypothetical, shall we? Would KC have won the Super Bowl this year w/that great rookie class and no Mahomes, Kelce, Chris Jones, etc?

You can have your last word, Larry. But, I'm done w/your nonsense.

I didn't trash anyone. I know that's an often used tactic by you to attack anyone and anything you don't like or don't wish to address. All I was doing is pointing out it takes high paid stars like Mahomes in combination with rookie success and being able to identify overlooked low cost FA's to be able to pay those stars. It's not the one or the other topic you wish to turn it into.


How would you pay them all without what I stated above? It's a combination of these things. If it were as simple as you're making it sound there would be a lot more people who would be good at it.

The nonsense here is you're attributing things to me that I wasn't doing and using a personal attack to avoid saying even you have stated the exact same thing as I am in the past. I'm becoming quite worried about you.